The Autobots' Hidden Master

[Grebo]

I found it! Vindicator's essay about Alpha Trion's power-hungry
manipulation of the Autobots' destiny. I kinda agree with parts of it,
and kinda don't with others. Either way, it's well done. Sorry the
linked media files are absent, but what are you gonna do?

Grebo

======================

The Autobots' Hidden Master (ATTCM Version)

I have prepared this "ATTCM Version" to provide detailed supporting
evidence for the points raised in the original essay. Of course,
since this version contains images and hyperlinks, it cannot be posted
to the ATTCM newsgroup itself. Rather, the subtitle "ATTCM Version"
has been selected to applaud the rigorous standards of that esteemed
association.

Because of the complexity of the arguments, a review of the key
episodes might be in order. If you have them available, these are:

-- From season two --

The Secret of Omega Supreme

In this episode, we see the Robo-Smasher in operation. It first
frees a probable Decepticon from Autobot mind control circuits. It
also frees the Constructicons--Decepticons without any doubt--from
similar circuitry. It fails when faced with the relatively rare and
complex Guardian Robot: Omega Supreme.

The Search for Alpha Trion

In this episode, we learn that Alpha Trion directly guided the
activities of the female Autobot guerrillas. We observe that one of
his creations--Optimus Prime--was stripped of the knowledge of his
creator. We witness Alpha Trion's use of hoarded resources. We also
witness the most perverted scene that ever slipped past the censors
employed by the Autobot Propaganda Ministry.

The Key to Vector Sigma - Parts 1 and 2

In these episodes, we witness Alpha Trion as he merges with Vector
Sigma. We see the creation of the Stunticons: the last personalities
created by Vector Sigma before Alpha Trion merged with it. We also
see the creation of the first personalities produced by Vector Sigma
after being occupied by Alpha Trion: the Aerialbots. We learn the
lineage of Alpha Trion and Megatron, and we learn an important clue
concerning the pre-history of Cybertron.

War Dawn

In this episode, we see the Aerialbots visit the past, where they
just happen to encounter Alpha Trion. We learn that Alpha Trion
created Optimus Prime and other robots specifically to fight the
Decepticons.

----- From season three -----

Forever is a Long Time Coming

In this episode, we learn that Alpha Trion--then called A-3--was a
leader of the slave class during the rebellion against the
Quintessons. We also witness his experiences in time travel, whereby
he gained knowledge of the future. We see him direct the seemingly
chaotic temporal effects of the Quintesson's Time Window.

The Return of Optimus Prime - Part 2

In this episode, we witness Optimus Prime empty the contents of
the Autobot Matrix of Leadership, preparing the stage for Alpha
Trion's total domination of Cybertron.

----- From that other season -----

The Rebirth - Parts 2 and 3

In these episodes, we witness the powers gained by Alpha Trion by
merging with Vector Sigma. We learn that he gained the ability to
influence the minds of Decepticons as well as Autobots. We witness
the first organic corruption of Cybertronians. We see Alpha Trion
engorged with incredible power, and watch as Cybertron is left totally
under his control.

Other episodes will be mentioned. These include, Transformers: The
Movie, The Burden Hardest to Bear, The Ultimate Doom, Dark Awakening,
and Five Faces of Darkness - Parts 2 and 4.

The text of the original essay appears in bold black text, and italic
purple text is used to bring your attention to special points.
Readers familiar with first version of this essay will note that I
have made a few minor changes. None of these changes resulted in
deviations from my original arguments. Changes have been made in
order to improve clarity, or else to drive deeper the blade of
vindication.

The Autobots are a posturing race of robot laborers. The Autobots
are driven by a single undeviating goal: to spread their hypocrisy
throughout the universe.

This, in case you missed it, is a parody of the narrator's third-
season summary of Decepticons: "The Decepticons are a malevolent race
of robot warriors. The Decepticons are driven by a single undeviating
goal: total domination of the universe." I am simply stating the
Deception's perspective concerning the Autobots.

Considering their obvious military inferiority, one wonders how
the Autobots continue to stand against the might of the Decepticons.

The Decepticons are robot warriors, designed expressly for combat.
The Autobots (at least before Alpha Trion created the new warrior cast
of Autobots--see below) were not designed for use in battle. Can a
pleasure boat defeat an aircraft carrier? No. Can a sports car
defeat a tank? No. Why then do the Autobots continue to survive
against the Decepticons? There must be something more at work here.
In anticipation of a likely reply, I will say now: "good" does not
always triumph over "evil", and--in any event--Decepticons are not
evil.

To solve this puzzle, we must look deeply within the historical
facts and ferret out the subtle tactics of the Autobots' hidden
Master.

This is a statement of my thesis, and I explain it in the paragraphs
that follow.

The Autobots continued success is due to the efforts of an ancient
Autobot designated Alpha Trion, who created a cast of Autobots
specifically designed to stand against Decepticons. His first such
creation was an Autobot Leader, Optimus Prime, reformed from the
remains of a warehouse worker originally called Orion Pax.

Here is a picture of Orion Pax. I hope you are not refueling while
you view this.

Yech!

In War Dawn, set nine million years ago, the Aerialbots carry the
corpus of Orion Pax, searching for help to repair him. They just
happen to encounter Alpha Trion, the first of several of coincidences
we will observe concerning Alpha Trion and the Aerialbots. Alpha
Trion bears an Autobot symbol, as do--naturally--the Aerialbots.
Orion Pax does not bear an Autobot symbol. At first, Alpha Trion
feigns no interest in helping the wounded Orion Pax. Indeed, the
first words said by Alpha Trion are, "Excuse me. If that young robot
needs repairs, I suggest you take him to the next city."

The fiend appears...

It is interesting to note that Alpha Trion is standing at the open
entrance to his lab when the Aerialbots approach. The doors to the
lab, we see later, are well armored. Alpha Trion gestures to the many
wounded robots within his lab as an excuse for not assisting Orion
Pax. Clearly, he has many robots to repair and is very busy. We must
question why Alpha Trion abandoned his oh-so-important work to greet
the Aerialbots. Further, how did he know of their proximity? One
reasonable explanation is that other Autobots saw the Aerialbots as
they carried Orion Pax, and alerted Alpha Trion that Autobots carrying
a wounded Autobot would pass by his lab. Then again, Alpha Trion
might have had automated surveillance equipment secreted about
Cybertron. This latter possibility is supported by events that occur
in The Search for Alpha Trion, discussed below. It is even possible
that Alpha Trion knew when to expect the Aerialbots' arrival. No
matter the case, Alpha Trion--as we will learn later--has reason to
pay special attention to robots matching the Aerialbots' descriptions.

Alpha Trion reveals much when he says to the Aerialbots, "I had been
developing a way to rebuild our robots to fight the Decepticons, but
now..."

This is an interesting statement. First, remember again that Alpha
Trion is an Autobot and that he is speaking to other Autobots. Also
recall that the wounded Orion Pax is not yet an Autobot, for he does
not wear the Autobot slave brand. This might explain Alpha Trion's
initial reluctance to repair him. If this is the case, his reluctance
to treat Orion Pax might stem from the need to treat true Autobots.
This would not necessarily indicate indifference, but merely the need
to allocate time and resources rationally in a difficult situation.
After all, Alpha Trion did state that the wounded had been "pouring
in."

On the other hand, we must not forget that Alpha Trion--as we will
review below--has some knowledge of the future. His seeming
reluctance might be a charade designed to minimize tampering with
time.

A third possibility also exists. Alpha Trion might be engaging in
misdirection. As we will learn below in our study of the events in
The Search for Alpha Trion and other episodes, he is capable of such
apparently unnecessary misdirection.

Returning to his statement, note that he confesses that he is
interested in rebuilding our robots. Again, we should remember that
he is speaking to fellow Autobots. Most importantly, he states that
his goal is to rebuild the robots in order to fight the Decepticons.

He then examines Orion Pax and states that he detects a "strong spirit
within him." It would please me to report that Alpha Trion is
referring to a demonic possession. Sadly, we must reject that
humorous possibility, and take his use of the word "spirit" as a
reference to a personality trait. We are about to learn, of course,
that Orion Pax is not a stranger to Alpha Trion. This is merely an
example of Alpha Trion's propensity for misdirection. After the
examination, he announces that he will rebuild Orion Pax, and takes
the corpus within his lab. The armored doors close and the Aerialbots
wait impatiently without as Alpha Trion conducts his work in secret.
Later, he introduces his new creation to the Aerialbots.

Introducing...Peabrain!

"He is no longer Orion Pax," Alpha Trion says, "Now he is the first of
our new defenders: Optimus Prime." Note that Optimus Prime now bears
an Autobot symbol. When Optimus Prime speaks, we note that his former
personality has been completely replaced. We will return to this
observation below, when we discuss The Key to Vector Sigma.

If you pay close attention to the conversation between the Aerialbots
and Alpha Trion, you will discover that the name "Orion Pax" was never
mentioned. Just how did Alpha Trion know his original name? Here is
strong evidence that Alpha Trion knows more than he would have others
believe, and has been less than forthright with his words to the
Aerialbots.

Those who would struggle to deny the obvious might argue that Alpha
Trion learned the identity of Orion Pax during the rebuilding
process. However, if this is the case, then Alpha Trion had even at
that time the ability to invade the mind of a Cybertronian. Either
argument supports my thesis that he is a force working behind the
scenes, but it remains most likely that Alpha Trion knew Orion Pax
before the Aerialbots brought his body to Alpha Trion's lab. Here, I
am appealing to Ockham's Razor.

In the final analysis, I think we can all agree at least that Alpha
Trion created a new cast of Autobots, and that he created them
expressly to fight the Decepticons. Further evidence that Alpha Trion
is widely held to be the "Father" of the Autobots will be presented
throughout this essay.

By the way, it should also be clear, when we compare the pictures of
Orion Pax and Optimus Prime, why Alpha Trion decided to hide the face
of his new creation behind a mask.

Alpha Trion supplied his creations with enhanced combat
capabilities, most likely copied from Decepticon technology.

I have no direct quote from Alpha Trion confessing the source of his
new designs. However, is it not reasonable to conclude that he based
his new designs on Decepticon technology? Where else could Alpha
Trion have acquired designs for robots capable of fighting
Decepticons? He most likely studied the remains of fallen
Decepticons. The only alternative is that he developed sophisticated
military technology and programming entirely from scratch. That
alternative is too farfetched to accept.

Naturally, the threat of their potential for insurrection demanded
strong measures.

Remember that Alpha Trion has just created a new kind of robot with
military capabilities. He equipped domestic slaves with the skills
and weapons formerly reserved for warriors. Is it not reasonable to
expect that Alpha Trion would want to avoid the possibility of
insurrection from this newest cast of military bots?

In order to deny the possibility of revolt, Alpha Trion equipped
his creations with an improved version of Autobot programming, further
suppressing their desire for self-fulfillment.

Programming, of course, plays an important role in defining the
personalities of all Cybertronians. Just as variations in DNA largely
define the basic behavior of organic species--at least at an
instinctive level--so too, programming largely defines the basic
behavior of Cybertronians. The element of randomness, giving rise to
individual traits, in programming stems from the complexity of the
program; while randomness in DNA stems from combinations of the
parental DNA and the effects of mutations.

Even the most zealous Autobots lackey must agree that Autobot
programming emphasizes self-denial for the sake of so-called "higher
goals." The desire for self-fulfillment is subordinate--in Autobot
programming--to other drives. So too, Decepticons put aside their
personal goals and desires when such are in conflict with the
Decepticon Goal. The Decepticon Goal, of course, differs greatly from
that of the Autobots. Autobot programming began with, or was greatly
altered by, the Quintesson's efforts to produce docile domestic
slaves. Elements of this old programming remain in Autobots and are
reflected in their goals.

In creating an Autobot warrior cast, Alpha Trion must have been aware
of the risk involved in mingling Decepticon technology with Autobot
programming. Let us compare the personalities of Alpha Trion's
creations--Optimus Prime, for example--with the creations of other
Autobots--the Dinobots, for example--and those of Vector Sigma--
Megatron and the Stunticons, for example. We see that Alpha Trion's
creations are singularly concerned from the beginning with issues of
service and respect, even when the objects of their respect and
service are of questionable worthiness. The Dinobots question the goal
of defending Earth in The Ultimate Doom. Only the creations of Alpha
Trion exhibit instant and unswerving dedication to the service of non-
Cybertronians as a goal. Even though, as we will learn below, Alpha
Trion played a part in creating the Aerialbots, they too questioned
the need to serve the interests of Earth and were tempted to dedicate
themselves to Cybertronian affairs. This is attributable to the
influence of Vector Sigma in their creation.

As an aside, I must now point to the inference in War Dawn that the
Decepticons were, at the time, a relatively new development. Remember
that Orion Pax displayed an interest in the new and unusual flying
robots. First, we should note that the presence of non-Autobot
workers in War Dawn (Orion Pax and his friends, for example)
establishes that the Autobots did not represent all those robots to
whom I shall refer as civilians.

It cannot be true that the Decepticons were relatively new when
Megatron claimed the role of Leader because Starscream's aborted
coronation in Transformers: The Movie points to a long history of
previous Decepticon Leaders, or at the very least heroic figures. So
too, images from The Return of Optimus Prime - Part 2 (discussed
below) point to a long history of previous Autobot Leaders.
Statements made to Rodimus Prime during his trance experience in Five
Faces of Darkness - Part 4 also support this long history of the
opposing factions. It is impossible that the general civilian
population of Cybertron could remain unaware of these factions. We
must, therefore, conclude that the knowledge of the Decepticons had by
some means been erased from the memory of Orion Pax and his friends.
Who could do that?

Returning to the main argument, Alpha Trion must have added some
special programming elements to his creations as is evidenced by their
unique behavior. Given the potential dangers, this act was not at all
unreasonable.

This step was necessary because he knew that Decepticon research
had discovered how to remove the crude earlier control circuits.
Indeed, Megatron later created an automated device known as the Robo-
Smasher to perform this very function.

Here we come to the focus of many of the posts concerning my little
thesis, where I examine the events in The Secret of Omega Supreme.
Our information concerning the Robo-Smasher is scant. Here is the
brief discussion between Omega Supreme and Optimus Prime concerning
it. This exchange is used by Autobots to support their contention
that the Robo-Smasher "brainwashed" robots.

Omega Supreme: "Megatron had built a new machine."

Optimus Prime: "I remember... the Robo-Smasher. He used it to swell
the ranks of the Decepticons. It immobilized robots and reprogrammed
them for Megatron's uses."

Click here to hear Optimus Prime and Omega Supreme discuss the Robo-
Smasher. (205.9 kb).

Of course, Optimus Prime can by no means be considered to be a neutral
witness. Let us examine the rest of the evidence and see if it
supports his contentions. In The Secret of Omega Supreme, we see the
Robo-Smasher at work three times. A robot with many spikes is the
first subject. We do not know his name. I was first tempted to
nickname him Spike, but that name has nauseating connotations
associated with it. Therefore, I have decided to name him Impaler.

Impaler

It is reasonable to assume that Impaler's spikes serve some military
purpose. They would be of use, for example, in close combat
situations. I therefore contend that he is a military bot, as opposed
to a mere household slave. Note the purple triangle near his mid-
section. Although this might be a generic military icon, it is most
probably a brand defacing a previous Decepticon brand. Either
interpretation supports my argument--see below--that the Robo-Smasher
is removing a control circuit installed by the Autobots. Without a
doubt, Impaler is not a domestic slave, for he does not bear the slave
brand.

The Robo-Smasher appeared.

The Robo-Smasher

It captured and held Impaler with several arms.

Step 1: Restrain Patient

Then it cut a small circle with what appears to be a laser.

Step 2: Make Incicion

Some internal circuits were exposed.

Step 3: Expose Circuits

Zap! There was an intense but small flash of light.

Step 4: Vaporize Circuits

Impaler was then almost instantly released.

Step 4: Release Patient

To my optics, the flash looks like a surgically precise discharge of
energy. It does not look like an information download. Given the
brevity of the procedure, I contend that that the flash destroyed
something. I find it astounding that some folk argue that this brief
procedure brainwashed the alleged victim. Clearly, the Robo-Smasher
vaporized a circuit!

Now, the following is an important point. Neither Optimus Prime nor
Omega Supreme witnessed this event. I must mention here that one
popular theory contends that Omega Supreme's mental state (trauma) and
the leading questions of Optimus Prime bring into question the
validity of Omega Supreme's flashback. We need now examine the scenes
that we see in this episode and classify them according to their
validity.

The events on Cybertron in these scenes fall into two categories: 1)
Omega Supreme's own take on events, and 2) scenes portraying actual
events as seen by your average cyber-fly on the wall. As neither
Optimus Prime nor Omega Supreme witnessed the Robo-Smasher and Impaler
scene, we must conclude that the scene accurately depicts the
operation of the Robo-Smasher.

I would like now to stress that creating circuitry capable of altering
the behavior of a Cybertronian is very difficult. The nature and
complexity of a Cybertronian's circuitry and programming precludes
clumsy techniques. However, it should be possible to create a circuit
that blocks access to memory and programming at key points within the
internal circuitry of a Cybertronian. Such a device could produce a
docile victim. As we have already seen, Alpha Trion knew how to
completely rebuild a robot. He knew how to tinker with personality
circuits: witness the change in personality between Orion Pax and
Optimus Prime. He had the skills and knowledge to accomplish this
task, and as we will learn below, he had enormous amounts of time to
perfect these techniques.

There is another common argument I must now address. Some say that,
after the procedure, Impaler talks like a "zombie." They use this to
justify their claim that the Robo-Smasher brainwashed him.

Here is the dialogue:

Impaler: Instruct me, Megatron. I exist only to serve you. I will
obey your every order.

Impaler reaffirms his allegiance...

Megatron: Yes, I know you will. (Laughs)

Megatron is pleased...

Click here to listen to the exchange between Impaler and Megatron.
(169.1 kb)

I do not agree that Impaler delivers his lines without feeling. He
does not say, "In-struct-me-Meg-a-tron. I-ex-ist-on-ly-to-serve-you.
I-will-o-bey-your-ev-e-ry-or-der." I detect a hint of breathless
adoration in the tone of Impaler's words. He even gestures with his
hand! Are these behaviors characteristic of a brainwashed slave or so-
called zombie?

However, even if my auditory sensors are defective and his hand
gesture is ignored, I contend that it is reasonable to take his words
at face value. Does a lack of inflection necessarily mean a lack of
feeling? No! Soundwave is an example of a Transformer who (usually)
speaks without any inflection. Are we to believe that Soundwave is
devoid of feelings?

A gentle touch...

We then come to the matter of Megatron's response and laugh. I will
deal, first, with the laugh. I submit that one cannot translate the
complete meaning of a given laugh. I observe that Megatron tends to
laugh when he is happy. Megatron laughs at the end of this scene. I,
therefore, conclude that he is happy.

Before he laughs, he responds to Impaler, saying, "Yes, I know you
will."

Now, some contend that this is a very sinister statement. I hold that
Megatron is expressing appreciation and heartfelt camaraderie. It is
very likely that Impaler had served under Megatron in the past. After
all, Impaler instantly recognized Megatron. Megatron was pleased to
have gained or regained a loyal Decepticon follower. Since the Robo-
Smasher vaporized an Autobot implanted mind control circuit, Megatron
was likewise pleased to have thwarted their scheme.

Permit me to offer an alternative interpretation of this scene,
complete with the inner thoughts of Megatron and Impaler. This is an
excerpt from the tale entitled Allegiance. It is certainly not
offered as canon. Canon is that which we see and hear in the various
episodes. However, simply because something is canonical does not
mean that it is truthful. We are perfectly within our rights to
argue, for example, that Optimus Prime lied when he made the claim
that the Robo-Smasher brainwashed robots. This essay is replete with
such arguments. Indeed, many so-called continuity problems can be
attributed to flaws in the Autobots' complex edifice of half-truths
and fabrications. In any event, the following is offered as a
possible interpretation of the scene that does not violate the
canonical events as seen and heard.

Megatron had long sought Impaler, his former loyal lieutenant. It
was unfortunate that one of the first victims of the Autobot mind
control circuits was among the last to be located. This mission had
taken Megatron dangerously deep within Autobot territory. He
undertook the mission without backup, for one lone warrior could more
easily evade detection. Intelligence reports from civilian
sympathizers had led him to the general vicinity of Impaler, and he
had waited patiently for the best time to dispatch the Robo-Smasher
into action. When he did, the Robo-Smasher quickly vaporized the mind
control circuits and freed his former lieutenant from Autobot
domination.

Suddenly released from the controls, Impaler looked up to behold
his true Leader. He remembered all he had been forced to do after the
Autobots had invaded his mind, and for an instant he was filled with
self-loathing. An instant later, he was filled with pride when he
realized the full situation. As a warrior with an instinctive
understanding of military affairs, Impaler was well aware of the
personal danger Megatron had risked by entering so deeply into Autobot
territory. Against all odds, his true Leader had saved him from a
terrible fate. Overcome with thanks, Impaler instantly reaffirmed his
allegiance. His voice trembled when he spoke.

"Instruct me Megatron. I exist only to serve you. I will obey
your every order."

Impaler had served Megatron and the Decepticon Cause with
distinction, before the Autobots had invaded his mind. Of course,
Megatron never had any doubt of Impaler's loyalty. He well understood
that the Autobots had, quite literally, raped the mind of one of his
own lieutenants.

Such a violation cried for vengeance. First, he intended to free
each and every Decepticon shackled by Autobot mind controls. Then, he
would teach the Autobots a lesson. He would destroy the seething hive
that had served as the base of operations for the Autobot's mind
control project. Crystal City would be reduced to rubble!

Megatron then answered Impaler, remembering the flawless service
record of his lieutenant.

"Yes, I know you will."

It was good to have Impaler back, and Megatron was well pleased.
His Robo-Smasher had once again performed flawlessly. Try as they
might, the Autobots would never permanently sever the bonds between
Decepticons.

Then meeting Impaler's gaze, Megatron laughed. Reflecting all his
mixed emotions--triumph, loyalty, dedication, and mischievous glee--
his laughter was deep and hearty.

Impaler instantly recognized Megatron and affirmed his allegiance to
Megatron. Did Impaler know Megatron from before? We have no
canonical footage to confirm this fact. This is a mere possibility,
but this possibility brings us to a very critical question. Why did
Megatron select Impaler? This question is the beginning of an
interesting thread in this essay. We will return to it in a moment.

First, there is one other minor question to be raised concerning
Impaler. You may have noticed that his optical sensors are standard-
issue Autobot blue. While it is not universally true that all
Decepticons have red optics and that all Autobots have blue optics,
some might argue the point that blue optics are evidence that Impaler
is probably an Autobot. My counter-argument is that optics should be
easy to replace. Alpha Trion, remember, routinely repaired and even
rebuilt Transformers.

We will now turn to the second and third examples of the Robo-Smasher
in action. In The Secret of Omega Supreme, we see the Constructicons
bearing Decepticon symbols before their encounter with Megatron and
the Robo-Smasher.

The Constructicons were always Decepticons!

Consider Megatron's selection of candidates for the Robo-Smasher. I
have made a reasonable case that Impaler is probably a Decepticon.
The Constructicons are undeniably Decepticons. This is the second
clue in our thread, but I will wait just a moment before revealing its
importance.

In the third example, the subject is Omega Supreme. It must be
remembered that Omega Supreme is a Guardian Robot. Consider, for a
moment, the history of the Guardian Robots. Originally, they served a
military purpose: to defend the Quintessons against their slaves. We
know that Guardian Robots were at some time or another reprogrammed.
We see them in Forever is a Long Time Coming attacking Autobots. We
see them in War Dawn defending Autobots against Decepticons. Clearly,
the Guardian Robots were reprogrammed to serve the Autobots' cause.
Guardian Robots are very large, and one might reasonably assume that
the complexity of their internal circuitry, and perhaps programming,
is proportional to their physical size.

Megatron's selection of Omega Supreme is the third and conclusive clue
in our thread. If we agree that Impaler is a Decepticon, we have a
common thread. What do Decepticons and Guardian Robots have in
common? They both fought, at one time or another, Autobots! This
provides a strong motive for Autobot-implanted control circuitry.

Even if it is not true that Impaler is a Decepticon, there is a
secondary similarity between each of the selected robots: they are not
domestic slaves. In either case, there exists a strong motive for
Autobots to seek to control their actions.

I have shown already that Alpha Trion had the skills to perform this
reprogramming. I have further established two plausible motivations to
undertake such crimes. Both motivations share the common
characteristic that Autobot interests were served. Below, we will
learn that Alpha Trion had ample opportunity to prepare for and
execute these crimes.

We need now discuss the failure of the Robo-Smasher to release Omega
Supreme from the control circuits. In the cases of Impaler and the
Constructicons, we are dealing with Cybertronians of one size class,
while Omega Supreme is of another class altogether! The procedure
must have been more complex for the larger robot, requiring more
time. This accounts for the partial destruction of the circuits in
the case of Omega Supreme.

Some Autobot lackeys might remind us of a scene that occurs later in
The Secret of Omega Supreme, which is generally pointed to by Autobots
as evidence of the animosity between the Constructicons and Omega
Supreme. Words are said in an apparently taunting manner. Were these
actually taunts? Perhaps they evidenced disappointment. If we accept
that the Robo-Smasher failed to free Omega Supreme, then we must
conclude that Omega Supreme was denied--probably because of his
complexity and rarity--an opportunity for freedom. Are the
Constructicons' expressions of disappointment unreasonable under such
circumstances?

Please remember that there was a mutual friendship between the
Constructicons and Omega Supreme, and that this was genuine
friendship. Even the mind control circuits implanted by the Autobots
could not suppress their comradeship. I contend that the
Constructicons sought to free their friend from Autobot domination.
They retreated after the destruction of Crystal City in order make
ready for the time when their friend would find them. They knew him
well. They made it easy for him to find them and made sure the Robo-
Smasher was close by to free their friend. Sadly, the Robo-Smasher
failed in its task.

Click here and listen to their frustration. (169.1 kb)

Then again, let us not forget that Omega Supreme almost instantly
departed from Cybertron in pursuit of the Constructicons. He was
never afforded the opportunity to have his control circuits rebuilt by
Alpha Trion or other Autobots, and hence the Constructicons endured
the unremitting animosity of Omega Supreme for perhaps as much as nine
thousand millennia. Omega Supreme, because of his single-minded
obsession with revenge, was indeed a "waste of a perfectly good
robot!" We can all easily understand the Constructicons' disgust with
the sad fate of their former friend. Traces of Autobot control
programs remained within Omega Supreme. He was, quite literally,
insane.

To conclude this sub-argument, I submit that either canonical facts or
reasonable inferences based on canonical evidence support my arguments
concerning the Robo-Smasher. In short, the Robo-Smasher did not
reprogram bots. In fact, it did just the opposite. It freed them
from mind control circuits! The most likely suspect for the
development of these mind control circuits is Alpha Trion. He, of all
Cybertronians, had the time to undertake such a task. He, of all
Cybertronians, had the skills to perform such a vile act.

Alpha Trion devised a technique that would imprint the programming
directly into his creations' laser cores: tampering would then result
in termination. This programming assured strict adherence to the
Autobot cast system.

There is no other reasonable choice where such programming could
reside without any possibility of tampering. Given that the Robo-
Smasher had thwarted earlier control circuits, it must have been
obvious that crude circuits and peripheral programming could be
eradicated. To ensure complete protection against any possibility of
tampering, imprinting of the laser core would necessarily became the
focus of research.

Now, some might object to my use of the words "cast system." The
choice of these words is not an insult. Casts permeate Cybertronian
society. Witness the warrior cast and the slave cast as examples.
Within each of these two major casts, there exists a hierarchical
structure. The fundamental difference in the structures of these two
hierarchies reflects the major difference between the Decepticon and
Autobot views concerning inter-robotic ethics. In the Decepticon
hierarchy, authority and respect must be earned. In the Autobot
system, authority and respect are simply due. In each case, we are
dealing with views that stem from fundamental programming. The master
of a domestic slave need not earn that slave's respect. Leaders in
combat situations must earn the respect of their troops in order to be
effective. Indeed, it is even possible for a bitter enemy to earn an
opponent's respect. The conception that respect must be earned is
deeply seated within the consciousness of all Decepticons.

Unlike previous Autobot leaders, Alpha Trion did not transfer his
consciousness into the ancient and nearly indestructible device called
the Autobot Matrix of Leadership.

In The Return of Optimus Prime - Part 2, Optimus Prime said, "If any
cure to this plague exists, only the ancient Leaders within the Matrix
could possibly know it." (96.3 kb)

This establishes that the previous Autobot Leaders indeed resided
within the Autobot Matrix of Leadership--abbreviated "AML" hereafter.
Obviously, their physical forms did not exist within the AML. Only
their minds existed therein. The visions of their upper bodies that
we witness are merely images of their former selves.

Alpha Trion is known to have held the AML at some time. We know that
Alpha Trion is very familiar with the inner-world of the AML, because
he warns Optimus Prime of the dangers of becoming lost within the AML
during this scene. However, as we will learn below, Alpha Trion had a
far grander place in which to store his consciousness. He never
retreated into the AML.

Rather, after installing this Autobot Matrix of Leadership into
Optimus Prime,

Arguments concerning the true nature of the AML are covered in another
essay. Here, I will restrict myself to the minimum set of arguments
required to support the statements made in the original essay
concerning the AML.

There are several schools of thought concerning when Optimus Prime
came into possession of the AML and when he was not in possession of
it. I trust that all will agree to the following points. First, he
was in possession of the AML when he returned to Earth and died in
Transformers: The Movie. Second, at some time in history, he held it
for a considerable span. This second fact is established by Kup's
remarks concerning Optimus Prime's experience with the AML, as stated
in The Burden Hardest to Bear. In that episode, Kup responded to the
topic of Rodimus Prime's difficulties accepting the burdens of
leadership by relating that the "same thing had happened to Optimus
Prime after the Matrix was passed to him."

We strongly suspect that Optimus Prime did not continually carry the
AML from the time of his creation to the time of his first death, but
we have no positive proof of that suspicion. We also suspect that
some trusted Autobot, probably Alpha Trion, was in possession of the
AML when Optimus Prime departed on the Ark. Again, we have no
positive proof of that. We finally suspect that the AML was returned
to Optimus Prime during one of his visits to Cybertron after awakening
on Earth and before the events in Transformers: The Movie. Again,
this is merely suspicion.

In any event, arguments that someone other than Alpha Trion installed
the AML within Optimus Prime are, quite frankly, asinine. In Five
Faces of Darkness - Part 4; a disincarnate Optimus Prime within the
AML told Rodimus Prime that Alpha Trion had held the AML until his--
Optimus Prime's--creation. Here is the dialogue.

Optimus Prime: The Matrix was passed to Alpha Trion, the oldest of the
Autobots, who kept it safely hidden for many years until the next
Autobot Leader appeared: a gentle robot known as Orion Pax, who was
fated to become-

Rodimus Prime: Optimus Prime.

Click here to listen to Optimus Prime's opinion of his former self.
(223.3 kb)

Comment: Optimus Prime's use of the word "fated" is but another
example of Autobot mystical rhetoric. Fate had nothing to do with his
selection, unless we use the word "fate" in reference to Alpha Trion's
machinations based on his foreknowledge.

Alpha Trion must have installed the AML within Optimus Prime. After
all, Alpha Trion was in possession of the AML until he created the
next Autobot Leader: Optimus Prime.

he lurked in the shadows for many thousands of millennia, secretly
guiding Autobot guerrillas on Cybertron to the continued annoyance of
Decepticons.

In the Search for Alpha Trion, Elita-1 immediately turns to Alpha
Trion when the female Autobots' base is in danger of detection.

I am the great and powerful Alpha Trion...

Alpha Trion gives her instructions concerning the relocation of their
lair, and Elita-1 then brags about her ability to deal with
Decepticons and her lack of fear. Alpha Trion issues a warning, and
Elita-1 indicates her willingness to abide by his command. Here is
the dialogue.

Alpha Trion: Elita-1, I must warn you again. Do not use your special
power under any circumstances. Do you understand?

Elita-1: Yes, Alpha Trion, I understand.

(Elita-1 bows before the image of Alpha Trion.)

Elita-1 bows before her Master...

Very shortly thereafter she disobeys his command and uses her "special
power" to save Optimus Prime from an acid bath. She then she explains
that the use of her special power--apparently some form of temporal
anomaly that allows her and those she selects to move about while
others remain frozen in time--resulted in a dangerous weakening of her
systems.

Look at all the pretty lights!

Here is their dialogue:

Elita-1: My special power, a weapon of last resort: it drains all my
life force.

Optimus Prime, muttering: No.

Elita-1: Take me to Alpha Trion. He's the only one who can save me.

Optimus Prime: We shall find him.

(After a short trip, they come to the vicinity of Alpha Trion's
underground lair.)

Optimus Prime: Alpha Trion's base.

Comment: In fact, we must question the appropriateness of this
episode's title. There certainly was not much of a "search" for Alpha
Trion!

(An elevator appears through the rubble, and Alpha Trion emerges.)

Comment: Again, it is uncanny how Alpha Trion knows that a visitor
is at his door. We presume that he was alerted by surveillance
equipment.

Alpha Trion: Optimus Prime.

(Optimus Prime kneels before Alpha Trion.)

Optimus Prime kneels before his Master...

Optimus Prime: Alpha Trion. I never expected to see you again.
Elita-1... her life force is almost drained.

Alpha Trion: She used her special power. I warned her not to.

Optimus Prime: She did it to save me.

Comment: Apparently, this is an acceptable excuse for her
disobedience.

Alpha Trion: Follow me.

Optimus Prime, carrying the limp form of Elita-1, silently obeys this
command. They enter Alpha Trion's lair. Alpha Trion tinkers with
Elite-1 for a bit, then explains that Optimus Prime must use his power
filter to complete the repair operation.

Uncle Alpha Wants You!

Alpha Trion: Only your design will properly interface with Elita-1.

(Optimus Prime is puzzled by this knowledge. )

Optimus Prime: But how would you know, Alpha Trion? Only my creator
would know that.

Comment: I find it strange that Optimus Prime has no knowledge of
his creator at this time. We can only image that Alpha Trion had some
good reason to erase that knowledge from Optimus Prime's memories.

Alpha Trion: An educated guess, Prime.

Comment: Why does Alpha Trion find it necessary again and again to
hide the full truth from his creations?

Optimus Prime then commences the much-commented-upon interface with
Elite-1.

Optimus Prime 'interfaces' with an unconscious Elita-1...

Optimus Prime, with great passion: Ah� Please� Elita�
Reactivate! (70.3 kb)

Now that we have suffered through Optimus Prime's rutty plea to the
unconscious Elita-1 as he interfaced with her, we will resume our
discussion.

Near the end of the episode, Moonracer comments to Powerglide
concerning the new base.

Presents from Alpha Trion!

Moonracer: It's really amazing how quickly Alpha Trion set up our new
headquarters, and with such advanced equipment!

Comment: Yes, it is amazing, considering how depleted the
resources of Cybertron were! Alpha Trion must have had an extensive
stockpile of equipment at his disposal.

At the end of the episode, Optimus Prime and Elita-1 gives thanks to
Alpha Trion. Here is the dialogue:

Optimus Prime: I guess we have Alpha Trion to thank for our victory.

Elita-1: Yes. Such a wise old Autobot: he's almost like a father to
me.

Optimus Prime: More than you'll ever know, Elita. More than you'll
ever know.

Click here to listen to this conversation. (127.9 kb)

From the perspective of an Autobot, as we will note below, "God" could
easily be substituted in place of "Alpha Trion" without changing the
meaning of this statement.

No discussion of the events in the Search for Alpha Trion would be
complete without touching on the Autobot's predictably chauvinistic
attitude concerning females, as displayed in the flashback of Optimus
Prime as he foolishly rushes off to the Spacebridge. Presumably, this
flashback recalls the last moments of Optimus Prime on Cybertron
before his ill-fated voyage to Earth.

Elita-1: Optimus wait!

Optimus Prime: Elita, take cover! I will return for you as soon as we
need.

Elita-1: I want to go with you!

Optimus Prime: It's too dangerous! Go back!

Click here to listen to this exchange. (136.0 kb)

This is so blatantly chauvinistic that I need comment no further upon
it. By the way, there is a theory that Elita-1 held the AML when
Optimus Prime voyaged on the Ark and passed it back to him just before
he returned to Earth in Transformers: The Movie. The theory contends
that Shockwave put an end to her existence, explaining Optimus Prime's
single-minded determination to undertake a duel to the death with
Megatron. While I tend to agree that Shockwave dealt with the female
guerrillas, I find it impossible to believe the Autobots would entrust
the AML to a female.

When the appropriate time came, he uploaded his consciousness into
Vector Sigma. This unusual step preserved his consciousness.

The Key to Vector Sigma is replete with hints concerning the
relationship of Alpha Trion to the Autobots. Many facets of ancient
Cybertronian history are also revealed in these two episodes.
Megatron's scientific and engineering abilities are showcased, as is
his knowledge of history. We also witness his willingness to risk his
life for the Decepticon Cause. Virtually every scene in this tale is
of importance, and it is difficult to resist the temptation to stray
from our topic and examine all the fascinating points raised in these
episodes.

We will now begin to examine a critical moment in the history of
Cybertron, when Alpha Trion merged with Vector Sigma. Autobots claim
that this act was a sacrifice. This view is far from correct. We
know that Alpha Trion retreated to the most potent, ancient, and
sacrosanct of all hosts for his consciousness. This is not a matter
of sacrifice at all. This is an ascension to a more powerful state of
existence!

Throughout the journey to Vector Sigma, Alpha Trion is very much the
leader. He directs their trek through Cybertron's interior, leading
them past derelict shuttles that will later be made into the
Aerialbots. He displays a cavalier attitude toward danger. At one
point, when questioned about the path he has selected, he jokingly
indicates the approaching Centurion Robots as proof that the
Decepticons had followed the same path.

Alpha Trion: Because, who else would have sent them to kill us? (43.5
kb)

Comment: He knows that the Centurion Robots are no real threat
because he knows his future.

For now, we will concentrate on the events of his ascension. When the
time for this nears, Alpha Trion brags that he is a first-generation
product of Vector Sigma, and all the evidence supports this claim.

Alpha Trion: I am a first-generation product of Vector Sigma. (40.3
kb)

This statement is nestled between two telling remarks. The Aerialbots
have been constructed, and are ready for independent personalities.
Concern is expressed over the lack of a Key to Vector Sigma. Alpha
Trion almost chuckles when he hints about the existence of another
Key, again playing word-games with his supposed comrades.

Alpha Trion: Oh, I think I have a Key on me. (48.6 kb)

Alpha Trion then states his lineage, as quoted above, and explains how
he can accomplish the task. When Optimus Prime expresses concern over
Alpha Trion's plan, Alpha Trion admonishes him with a reminder that
he--Alpha Trion--created Optimus Prime.

Alpha Trion: Have you forgotten that you are my creation, Prime?
(46.6 kb)

Comment: Here, at last, Alpha Trion openly states his authority
over Optimus Prime, the supposed Autobot Leader.

Now, we have ample evidence that there are others who were created by
Vector Sigma, and this list does not include Optimus Prime and other
Autobots. Alpha Trion is, in their own words, the so-called "Father"
of the Autobots. We will return to this topic below. For the moment,
let us continue with the story of Alpha Trion's ascension.

Proof that Alpha Trion had an immediate effect on Vector Sigma is
evident when we compare the energy radiating from Vector Sigma when
granting personalities to the Stunticons and Aerialbots. The energy
used when granting personalities to the Stunticons was purple compared
to a yellowish color used upon the Aerialbots.

Vector Sigma gives personalities...Vector Sigma/Alpha Trion gives
personalities...

While some might claim that these two colors indicate the nature of
the personalities being infused into the robots--regal purple for
Decepticon personalities and cowardly yellow for Autobot
personalities--it is just as likely that the entity granting the
personalities had been altered.

Let us now discuss matters of lineage. We will accept that Alpha
Trion is a first-generation creation of Vector Sigma. Earlier in this
episode, we learned that Megatron was also one of Vector Sigma's "own
creations." Here is the supporting dialogue:

Vector Sigma: I am Vector Sigma. Before Cybertron was, I was. Who
reactivates me? (139.1 kb)

Megatron: I, Megatron, one of your own creations. (44.6 kb)

Vector Sigma: Why have you done this thing? (35.5 kb)

Megatron: You must give personalities to the Stunticons. They're
cybernetic creations like ourselves. Fill them with hatred for the
Autobots and all that the Autobots stand for. (137.4 kb)

Vector Sigma: Present them to me. (30.8 kb)

Also, again earlier in this same episode, we learned from Megatron the
nature of Vector Sigma. He explained that Vector Sigma is "the mega-
computer, deep in the core of Cybertron, which gave life to us
all." (70.9 kb)

In The Rebirth - Part 2, Optimus Prime marches into the depths of
Cybertron after some "answers." As he approaches the vault of Vector
Sigma, an exchange occurs between Ultra Magnus and Optimus Prime.
Here is a transcription.

Ultra Magnus: Prime, where are you gonna get these answers you want?

Optimus Prime: From the one who created me: from Alpha Trion.

Ultra Magnus: But, he's in Vector Sigma: the computer which gave us
all life.

Optimus Prime, after a long pause: Right. And with the shell of the
Matrix, I may be able to reactivate Vector Sigma and merge with it.

Comment: Optimus Prime was speechless for a moment. He did not
know how to correct Ultra Magnus's false impression that Vector Sigma
gave them all life. Instead, he simply used the conversation filler
"Right" to gloss over the issue.

Listen for yourself as Optimus Prime and Ultra Magnus enter the Vector
Sigma chamber. (298.6 kb)

Although Ultra Magnus made the claim that Vector Sigma gave them all
life, we can dismiss this because we know that Alpha Trion created
Optimus Prime. We also know that Vector Sigma was not involved in the
creation of the Dinobots. We will return to this scene in just a
moment.

We are left with the impression at the end of this episode that Alpha
Trion no longer exists. To finish the argument that merging with
Vector Sigma was not a sacrifice, but rather was an ascension, I offer
several events as evidence. First, Alpha Trion communicated with
Optimus Prime within the AML in The Return of Optimus Prime - Part 2.
We will examine that scene in detail below. Second, in The Rebirth -
Part 2, we witness a long communication between Optimus Prime and
Alpha Trion. This these takes place within Vector Sigma.

Optimus Prime opens his chest compartment and withdraws the AML. It
has been recharged with blue energy, and yet Optimus Prime refers to
it as "the shell of the Matrix."

Behold! The AML, recharged!

Why would Optimus Prime use the words "the shell of the Matrix" when,
clearly, the AML is charged with blue energy again? The answer is
obvious! The weapon is charged but the former occupants are dead!

Optimus Prime inserts the AML into Vector Sigma and mentally enters
into the inner-world of Vector Sigma. He encounters Alpha Trion.
Here is a transcription of their conversation.

Optimus Prime: Alpha Trion. (70.2 kb)

Comment: Optimus Prime expected to find Alpha Trion within Vector
Sigma, and he did.

Alpha Trion: I've been expecting you, Optimus. (33.4 kb)

Comment: Alpha Trion has knowledge of the affairs outside Vector
Sigma.

Optimus Prime: Then you know why I've come. (21.6 kb)

Comment: Optimus Prime begins to realize the new powers of Alpha
Trion.

Alpha Trion: Nebulos. That which you seek is there. (46.4 kb)

Comment: Alpha Trion begins to weave his latest scheme.

Optimus Prime: Nebulos? But how did Brainstorm and the others-?
(36.6 kb)

Comment: The Autobot Leader is not all that knowledgeable
concerning history and physics.

Alpha Trion: Plasma energy. The chamber was opened momentarily and a
bolt of plasma energy struck their ship, sending them millions of
miles into space. (125.2 kb)

Comment: Alpha Trion patiently explains the facts. What he fails
to explain is that it is no coincidence that they were sent to
Nebulos. They were directed to Nebulos by Vector Sigma controlling
the output from the Plasma Energy Chamber. The entire scheme rests on
the merging of an Autobot with a human, as we will learn below. This
scheme depends on technology available on Nebulos.

Optimus Prime: One bolt did all that? (21.8 kb)

Comment: How could such a nitwit be the Leader of the Autobots?
Here is further proof that Alpha Trion is actually in charge

Alpha Trion: It is raw energy. It seeks out any entity that
transforms matter into energy and overloads them totally. Only
organic life is unaffected. But hear me, Prime: a second golden age
of Cybertron is almost at hand. But whether this comes to pass
depends on the merging of an Autobot's life with that of a human
being. (325.0 kb)

Comment: Alpha Trion continues his patient explanation, weaving
elements of his scheme to seduce the cooperation of Optimus Prime

Optimus Prime: How do you know this, Alpha Trion? (26.0 kb)

Comment: Here is another example of Optimus Prime's ability to
overlook the obvious.

Alpha Trion: Vector Sigma itself. It was Vector Sigma who arranged
for Galvatron to learn of the Key's existence. (101.3 kb)

Comment: This is a shockingly straightforward confession. Alpha
Trion is certainly confident now. He has dismissed all pretense and
attempts to mislead his creation. Now we know that Vector Sigma has
the power to influence the minds of Decepticons. We already know that
Alpha Trion is merged with Vector Sigma. Such are the powers he
gained.

Optimus Prime: Alpha Trion! That makes no sense! (37.1 kb)

Comment: It makes no sense to Optimus Prime, but it should be
obvious to all what he--Alpha Trion--is plotting. A further hint is
revealed by Alpha Trion's next response.

Alpha Trion, sternly: Do not question Vector Sigma's motives! The
parameters of its thought matrix are greater than you can imagine! A
final warning, Prime: whatever happens, the Key to the Plasma Energy
Chamber must not be destroyed. Vector Sigma commands it! (267.9 kb)

Comment: Alpha Trion could have been brutally honest and said
"Now, I am indeed your god! Obey me without question!" However, we
still see a bit of his old habit of misdirection. It is vital to
Alpha Trion's plan that the Plasma Energy Chamber be activated again.
As we will see, the energy will be funneled into Vector Sigma, and
hence into Alpha Trion.

Alpha Trion/Vector Sigma (1/2)Alpha Trion/Vector Sigma (2/2)

(Alpha Trion vanishes in a display of light, and Optimus Prime's
vision ends. A puzzled Optimus Prime departs with Ultra Magnus,
leaving the AML within Vector Sigma.)

Later in this episode, Alpha Trion communicates with Optimus Prime in
two scenes. The first of these occurs when Optimus Prime is on
Nebulos. He wants a human to return to Cybertron. Here is the
dialogue.

Human: I'm staying here.

Optimus Prime: No. You must come.

(Lights appear around the head of Optimus Prime.)

His will be done!

The voice of Alpha Trion: Only organic life is immune to plasma
energy.

Optimus Prime: We need you Spike. You're the only one of us who
stands a chance if Galvatron unleashes the plasma energy.

Click here to listen to this conversation. (168.4 kb)

In the second instance, Optimus Prime is en route back to Cybertron.
Here, the dialogue is very short and to the point. In it, Alpha Trion
actually projects am image of himself into the bridge of the Autobots'
ship.

Optimus Prime: Alpha Trion!

The Key to Powers Unimaginable!

Alpha Trion: The Key to the Plasma Energy Chamber: no harm must befall
it! It is the key to a miracle!

Click here to listen to this exchange. (157.2 kb)

Here we have two examples of Alpha Trion's ability to influence his
creation from within Vector Sigma. We note that Optimus Prime obeys
his creator without question. The so-called Autobot Leader has been
reduced to the status of a puppet. In all probability, he was always
a puppet, serving the schemes of his creator, Alpha Trion.

In conclusion, I have--at the very least--shown that Alpha Trion lost
nothing by merging with Vector Sigma. The act preserved his
consciousness and increased his powers.

The other ancient Autobot Leaders conveniently perished a short
time thereafter, as we will soon see.

Support for this statement follows below, when we discuss The Return
of Optimus Prime.

Hidden within the chest compartment of specially designed
Autobots, such as Optimus Prime, past Autobot Leaders once observed
the unfolding of their grand schemes, believing themselves to be safe
from harm within the well-named Autobot Matrix of Leadership.

As we have already noted, in The Return of Optimus Prime - Part 2,
which we will study in detail below, Optimus Prime states, "If any
cure to this plague exists, only the ancient Leaders within the Matrix
could possibly know it." This establishes that the minds of the past
Autobot Leaders were contained within the AML.

Evidence that they were capable of observing external events will be
offered below. That they believed themselves safe from harm stems
from the long history of the device, and the ability of the device to
reformat its carrier. This, too, we will discuss below.

Concerning the name of the device, we should note that it was not
named the "Autobot Matrix of Leadership" because it was given to
Autobot Leaders as a symbol of authority or because the Autobot Leader
carried it. No, it was named the Autobot Matrix of Leadership for the
simple fact that it contained the minds of the previous Autobot
Leaders.

This device had the capability to restructure select Autobots into
stronger, safer vessels,

The reformatting of Hotrod into Rodimus Prime in Transformers: The
Movie proves this point. Since this is so well known, I see no
further reason to supply proof of this contention. It was for this
practical reason that the previous leaders considered themselves safe.

while simultaneously numbing them to the constant subliminal
influence from the consciousnesses stored within it or operating
through it.

In Dark Awakening, Rodimus Prime--who was about to desecrate the tomb
of Optimus Prime--said, "Optimus Prime: if he were alive, I'd know.
The Matrix would have told me, somehow." (192.9 kb)

It is general knowledge that Autobot Leaders could consult with the
minds within the AML by entering into a trance state. From this
statement, we can conclude that Rodimus Prime must have had some basis
for believing that the AML had the ability to initiate communication
with him without the need of entering into a trance. Two
possibilities exist to explain the basis for this statement. Either
Rodimus Prime had personally experienced some form of communication
from the AML without entering into a trance state, or he knew that
other Leaders had experienced this type of communication. In either
case, the point is proven that the AML can initiate communication with
its bearer.

His use of the word "somehow" is interesting. It indicates that the
AML is limited in its ability to communicate with its bearer. If the
AML were capable of simply telling Rodimus Prime about the condition
of Optimus Prime with words or some other straightforward form of
communication, there would be no reason for Rodimus Prime to add
"somehow" to his statement.

This undoubtedly means that the AML-initiated communication is
accomplished by means of feelings or other presentational forms, and
most likely with the Cybertronian equivalent of empathy. As such
communication is, by definition, below the level of rational thought,
my use of the term subliminal is entirely justified.

If a group of minds has the ability so to communicate, it is unlikely
that they would refrain from such acts on a constant basis, especially
when the bearer of the vessel containing them is constantly at risk.
Think about it. It would be quite handy to have subliminal urges when
dodging weapons fire.

Rodimus Prime's statement also supports my contention that the
previous Leaders within the AML were capable of observing their
schemes unfold. If they were not capable of observing events outside,
then they certainly would not be able to inform Rodimus Prime of
Optimus Prime's status.

Autobot leaders were aware of this influence and accepted it
willingly.

We have already shown that Rodimus Prime was aware of the ability of
the minds within the AML to communicate with him "somehow." Rodimus
Prime seems most reluctant to continue bearing the AML, although he
could at any time remove it. In fact, he eagerly takes every
reasonable opportunity to rid himself of the device. He seems anxious
for any suitable excuse. Still, until The Return of Optimus Prime -
Part 2, Rodimus Prime willingly retained possession of the AML.

They could commune with past Leaders by entering a trance state.

We witness this procedure in Five Faces of Darkness - Parts 2 and 4
and The Return of Optimus Prime - Part 2. We will examine one such
experience below.

Part of an Autobot Leader's basic programming includes the
acceptance of this arrangement.

How else could it be? The Leader need only remove the Autobot Matrix
of Leadership to sever the tie! That they fail to remove the AML is
proof that they accept the arrangement. As we have already argued,
programming is fundamental to Cybertronian behavior. Thus, the
programming of the Autobot Leader predetermines his acceptance of the
arrangement.

Potential Autobot Leaders must possess a consciousness strong
enough to remain stable while processing these inner influences. On
the other hand, the potential Leader must be sufficiently submissive
to accommodate the wills of previous Leaders. This is a rare balance.

Remember that Alpha Trion said, speaking of Orion Pax, "I detect a
strong spirit within him." An Autobot Leader must be capable of
remaining reasonably sane while processing the subliminal information
from the minds within the AML. This is what Alpha Trion meant by "a
strong spirit."

Alpha Trion's careful programming of Optimus Prime had an effect
unanticipated by the previous Autobot Leaders. Slavishly following the
dictates of his programming, Optimus Prime found himself in a
situation that demanded emptying the contents of the device.

In The Return of Optimus Prime - Part 2, during his trance journey
into the AML, Optimus Prime first encounters an image of Rodimus
Prime.

Dullard...

We know that Rodimus Prime is still alive. This must be a template
for use in the future. Next, Alpha Trion appears and speaks to
Optimus Prime.

Alpha Trion, from Vector Sigma, speaking through the AML.

Alpha Trion: Optimus. Why have you returned?

Comment: Optimus Prime has returned from the dead. Is Alpha Trion
actually surprised, or is this just another act? Note that--although
Optimus Prime is the creation of Alpha Trion--he is not as easily
manipulated as Rodimus Prime. Still, Alpha Trion is cunning and
manipulative, and knows well how to deal with his creations.

Optimus Prime: To find a cure for the spore plague. Can you help me,
Alpha Trion?

Comment: Once again, the so-called Autobot Leader turns to his
creator for help.

Alpha Trion: If there is a cure, I know nothing of it.

Comment: Really? Are we to believe that Alpha Trion--with all the
computational powers of Vector Sigma at his disposal, and with an
intimate familiarity with the AML and, hence, with all previous
Autobot Leaders--does not know of this plague? Was he not a "first-
generation product" of Vector Sigma?

Optimus Prime: Then I must journey farther back.

Comment: That is just what Alpha Trion wants. After all, Alpha
Trion created Optimus Prime and knows what his creation's programming
will demand. Alpha Trion is careful never to have energon upon his
hands.

Alpha Trion: Be careful; for, if you travel too far, you may become
lost, and never find your way back.

Comment: Now that I have you back, I can complete my plans with
ease!

We also know that Alpha Trion is in Vector Sigma. In this case, Alpha
Trion must be using a direct link to the AML. We then see the
previous Autobot Leaders. We do not know their names, so I have
graciously supplied appropriate nicknames for them.

First, we see the portrait of "Blockhead."

Blockhead...

Next, "Crackhead" appears.

Crackhead...

Then we see "Fuzzy."

Fuzzy...

Finally, we see the image of "Skullface."

Skullface...

Skullface speaks to Optimus Prime, offering pessimistic advice
concerning the hate plague. Optimus Prime suddenly decides to empty
the "accumulated wisdom that resides within the Matrix."

Death of the Ancient Autobot Leaders!

The snake-like energy travels throughout the universe. Annoying music
drowns out the screams of the previous Leaders as they meet oblivion.

Snake-Like Energy... (1/2)Snake-Like Energy as seen in Paris! (2/2)

Finally, the Autobot Matrix of Leadership is declared empty. The blue
light is absent, but returns--as we have already seen--later in The
Rebirth - Part 2. For those who would still argue that "wisdom" was
emptied from the Matrix, please consider the nature of wisdom. Wisdom
is an attribute. It is not substantive. One cannot produce a bucket
of wisdom and then empty it. The minds within the Matrix possessed
any wisdom within it. The only way to empty wisdom from the AML was
to discard the minds within it.

Thus, the ancient Autobot Leaders at last met oblivion. Alpha
Trion, safe within Vector Sigma, escaped their fate.

This is so obvious that it should require no explanation.
Nevertheless, for those who are stubborn, recall again that Alpha
Trion was seen within Vector Sigma in The Rebirth - Part 2, and that
Optimus Prime stated that the AML was an empty shell just before he
used it to access Vector Sigma. He made that statement even though
there was again blue energy within the AML. Clearly, the AML was in
some respect recharged, but Optimus Prime still considered it to be an
empty shell.

It is very possible that Alpha Trion had foreknowledge of the
emptying of the Autobot Matrix of Leradership. His unique position as
a sentient Key to Vector Sigma, coupled with his experiences in time
travel, give him formidable strategic insights.

In Forever is a Long Time Coming, we learn many interesting facts
concerning Alpha Trion. To begin with, we learn that the Autobots
swear by using his name, as though he is a god.

Rodimus Prime: What in the name of Alpha Trion? (38.8 kb)

During the chaotic temporal conditions brought about by the
interrupted attempt of the Quintessons to alter history in Forever is
a Long Time Coming, we hear Alpha Trion utter perhaps the most self-
damning, and certainly the most self-conceited, of all his
statements. Only one who held himself superior to his fellows could
utter such a statement. Herein, he drops all pretence of humility and
we see a true glimpse into his own view of his relation to other
Autobots.

Superion: I have failed you, Rodimus. It is finished. (66.4 kb)

A-3: No, Superion! (51.3 kb)

First Morph (before)

(A-3 morphs into Alpha Trion)

First Morph (after)

Alpha Trion: You must live, that I may be born! (63.3 kb)

Superion: Alpha Trion? (25.5 kb)

Alpha Trion: A-3 (32.1 kb)

(Alpha Trion morphs into A-3)

Second Morph (Stage 1/3)
Second Morph (Stage 2/3)
Second Morph (Stage 3/3)

I can think of few statements ever uttered by any villain, real or
fictional, more self-centered than Alpha Trion's remark: "You must
live, that I may be born!" Standing face to face with Superion--
composed of five individuals who just risked their collective lives
for him--he plainly states that the only reason for their continued
existence is to assure that he will be born. His tone and the choice
and structure of his words are regal, as though he is of a cast imbued
with special rights and privileges.

As self-damning as this statement is, we still see a touch of his
characteristically evasive manner of speech. What exactly does he
mean by saying that Superion must live so that he--Alpha Trion--may be
born? Surely, he can not be speaking of his initial creation as A-3.
As far as we know, from the discussion of The Key to Vector Sigma
above, Alpha Trion was created by Vector Sigma. We will reject the
possibility that the Aerialbots played a critical role in the initial
creation of A-3, because we have no canonical evidence to support it.

In another possible explanation, he could be referring to his
ascension, when he merges with Vector Sigma. The trouble with this,
of course, is that the Aerialbots were created just after his
ascension. Thus, he can not be referring to that event.

There remains only one possibility: the Aerialbots are somehow
involved in A-3's rebirth as Alpha Trion. As we review this scene, it
becomes clear that this option is correct.

In this scene, he is in command of his changes of form. The perfect
timing of his words, corresponding exactly to his changes of form,
cannot be attributed to random chance. Immediately after Alpha Trion
morphs into the form of A-3, Superion is split into two independently
operating copies. This development, much to the dismay of the
Quintessons, turned the tide of battle. The Quintessons were unable
to destroy the Time Window and they retreated. This, in turn, gave
A-3 an opportunity to return to the past. This splitting into two
independently operating robots was simply too well timed to attribute
to coincidence.

Please note that Superion turned from a fierce battle to rescue A-3,
who had been thrown into space by a violent explosion. A-3 cried for
help, and Superion--consisting of the first creations of Vector Sigma
after Alpha Trion's ascension--responded instantly.

It is during this scene that A-3 learned the future history of
Cybertron. At the time of this scene, Alpha Trion had already merged
with Vector Sigma. This gave him great powers.

After this event, A-3 does confess confusion. He is undoubtedly
coming to grips with the enormity of his situation while processing
all the information now available to him.

Silverbolt: Still think we're your enemies. (24.8 kb)

A-3: I... I'm not even sure who I am anymore. (41.1 kb)

Again, when Alpha Trion said, "You must live, that I may be born," he
was in complete control of the situation. A-3 was then the recipient
of the knowledge gained by Alpha Trion in the intervening eleven
thousand millennia. While it is indeed true that the AML had not yet
been emptied in Forever is a Long Time Coming, it is certainly
possible that the temporal chaos allowed communication not only
between Alpha Trion and his former self, but also with his future
self. His choice to merge with Vector Sigma, rather than with the
doomed AML, is collaborative evidence of this distinct possibility.

Further evidence of an inner-change is given by his manner of speaking
before and after the critical scene with Superion. Before, he bluntly
states his suspicion of Rodimus Prime.

Rodimus Prime: Feeling better? Say, what's your name? (30.7 kb)

A-3: You'd like to know. Your Quintesson masters wanna know all
about the rebellion, but I won't tell. (69.4 kb)

Rodimus Prime: What? I don't work for the Quintessons. (40.9kb)

A-3: Only their technology could have pulled me from the empty
lands. And besides, you wear the slave brand. (73.4 kb)

Rodimus Prime: Slave brand? The Autobot Symbol? Look, I don't know
what- (52.5 kb)

Now, compare this exchange with one that happens later in the episode,
after A-3 has learned of his future as Alpha Trion, and after he has
had time to adjust the facts and formulate plans. Rodimus Prime,
after learning of the grave threat posed against all existence, agrees
to close the Time Window. It should be noted that the Quintessons
have not entirely abandoned their plans, and hope that A-3 will be
trapped in the present.

A-3, after volunteering to return to the past and recover the missing
Autobots, explained his reason for his change of mind. Indicating the
projection of the Quintesson, A-3 uttered his first recorded statement
with that vagueness and misdirection so characteristic of Alpha Trion.

A-3: What can I say? He convinced me too. (38.6 kb)

(A-3 jumps through the Time Window and the Quintesson instantly wails
with dismay.)

Quintesson: No. Noooo... (63.8 kb)

(The Quintesson fades from existence!)

There are two points to be made here. First, the instant that A-3 was
returned to the past, this particular Quintesson ceased to exist.
Alpha Trion saw to it that this Quintesson would never attempt to
alter history again. Since we all remember that this Quintesson
existed, his erasure must have happened at that exact moment. Alpha
Trion did not alter history. Even Decepticons can offer thanks to
Alpha Trion for this service.

Second, the power requisite for such a surgical erasure hints again at
Alpha Trion's capabilities after merging with Vector Sigma. Indeed,
he is powerful.

A-3, armed with his knowledge of the future, had a foreknown destiny
as well. He created the Autobots. Even they acknowledge that he
created them. The call him the "Father" of the Autobots.

Lord!

Airraid: That was the guy who created Optimus Prime? He was the father
of the Autobots? (63.9 kb)

The episode concludes with a sickening display of Autobot propaganda:
an image of A-3 composed of stars! Clearly, we can dismiss this as
fictional. If this event had in truth happened--the simultaneous
arrival of light from multiple stars entering a nova phase--then we
would be faced with the absurd conclusion that Alpha Trion had become
practically omnipotent.

Blatant Autobot Propaganda...

From his safe position within Vector Sigma, he retained a direct
connection to the Autobot Matrix of Leadership.

This was established in The Return of Optimus Prime - Part 2. Alpha
Trion, after merging with Vector Sigma, communicated with Optimus
Prime through the AML. That scene has already been offered into
evidence.

In effect, he has become the single Master of all Autobots.
Because the early history of Cybertron remains shrouded in mystery, it
is possible that he has always held that position.

We will now return to our discussion of The Key to Vector Sigma and
focus yet again on what is perhaps the most important verbal exchange
in the history of Cybertron. In the scene when Megatron reactivates
Vector Sigma, we learned something of the history of Megatron, the
nature of Vector Sigma, and we gained a hint concerning the prehistory
of Cybertron. Decepticons should note that Soundwave located the Key
to Vector Sigma before passing it to Megatron. The silence of
Soundwave during discussions of history should be contrasted with the
questions of Rumble. Soundwave shows extreme patience, befitting his
true status. Clearly, there exists a class of Cybertronians who know
history. Megatron, by his words, knows. Soundwave, by his silence,
knows. Shockwave knows, because he initiated the quest for the Key.

Optimus Prime confessed his relatively inferior knowledge when he
said, "We've got to see Alpha Trion. He knows more about Vector Sigma
than any of us." (66.4 kb)

We see that many Decepticons are very familiar with Vector Sigma. The
so-called Leader of the Autobots confesses his ignorance relative to
Alpha Trion. Of course, Alpha Trion created Optimus Prime for one
express purpose: to act as the Leader of the Autobots. Throughout
this essay, I have capitalized the word "Leader." It is a rank.
Decepticons and Autobots, alike, have Leaders.

When we contrast the historical, scientific, and technological
expertise of Megatron with the knowledge Alpha Trion programmed into
Optimus Prime, we see the true difference between the abilities of
these respective Leaders. Indeed, were it not for the assistance of
Alpha Trion, the Autobot movement would crumble.

Then again, we know that Alpha Trion is--according to Optimus Prime
himself--the "oldest of the Autobots." We have sufficient cause,
weighing all the evidence, to conclude that Alpha Trion (AKA A-3)
either single-handedly or with assistance founded the Autobot
movement. He was involved from the beginning and was, in all
probability, always in control, hidden behind the so-called Leader.

Quietly working in the background for at least nine thousand
millennia, Alpha Trion continues to interfere with the inevitable
success of the Decepticon Cause.

We know that Alpha Trion created Optimus Prime during the events in
War Dawn. That dates his anti-Decepticon activities at least nine
thousand millennia ago. When, exactly, Alpha Trion began his campaign
against the Decepticons is unknown. We do know that he was actively
an enemy of the Decepticons during the events in War Dawn.

Naturally, he would claim that he has done all of this with only
"good" intentions. As the supreme Master of the Autobots, he must
necessarily be supremely self-righteous.

Tragically, I must conclude this essay with the images shown below.
These should strike fear into all Cybertronians of all factions.
Sadly, the Autobots' delusions curse them to rejoice in this
development. At the end of our final source of canon, we see Alpha
Trion engorged with power.

Engorged with Power!

As his creations danced

The Dance of Corruption...

and his power spread throughout Cybertron, Alpha Trion's self-
fulfilling destiny was at last accomplished. He had corrupted
Cybertron with organic components, and had manipulated events to
cement his control over the planet. The Autobot Headmasters were only
the first step in his latest scheme.

As of the conclusion of the events in The Rebirth - Part 3, Alpha
Trion--with all the powers of the AML, Vector Sigma, and the Plasma
Energy Chamber at his disposal--reigned supreme as both Cybertron's
and the Autobots' Master.

There is only one remaining hope for Cybertron. In Transformers: The
Movie, we saw Soundwave apparently stand idle while Starscream cast
Megatron into space. This is a matter of canon. And yet we
Decepticons know that Soundwave would never willingly betray the
greatest of all Leaders: Megatron. Herein, clearly, something is
amiss. Once again: simply because something is canonical does not
mean that it is truthful. Obviously there is "more than meets the
eye" going on here.

But that is yet another argument...

-------------------------
Copyright © 2000 Vindicator
All Rights Reserved.
mailto: vindicator...@worldnet.att.net

[Zobovor]

On Jul 19, 9:51 pm, Grebo <grebog...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I found it! Vindicator's essay about Alpha Trion's power-hungry
> manipulation of the Autobots' destiny. I kinda agree with parts of it,
> and kinda don't with others. Either way, it's well done. Sorry the
> linked media files are absent, but what are you gonna do?

I should probably point out that Vindicator got pretty upset when I
had cross-posted segments of his essay to ATT, back in the day. I
don't even know if he's active in the fandom any longer, so it may be
a moot point, but I thought I'd mention it. (His objection seemed to
be mainly that the audience of ATT was less hospitable than that of
ATTCM, but since the latter newsgroup is a ghost town and the former
has changed considerably, it may not be as much of a concern now.)

That said, Vindicator shared Skyflight's talent of demonstrating that
everything in the canon is open to interpretation. I used to
steadfastly maintain that there was a "right" and "wrong"
interpretation, but I've amended that view and come to realize that
people should feel free to think whatever they want to think about the
events of the show. I think it's fun to sometimes reject the
"default" interpretation in favor of thinking outside the box.

I don't agree at all that Alpha Trion was some power-hungry despot who
manipulated time and space to his own sinister ends, but I don't
disparage anyone who wants to think that about him. If you enjoy that
interpretation of the character, then you shouldn't let a little thing
like writer intent get in your way.

Zob

[Onslaught Six]

On Jul 20, 1:29 am, Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:

> I don't agree at all that Alpha Trion was some power-hungry despot who
> manipulated time and space to his own sinister ends, but I don't
> disparage anyone who wants to think that about him.  If you enjoy that
> interpretation of the character, then you shouldn't let a little thing
> like writer intent get in your way.

I feel the same way about Animated, incidentally.

See, I see Bumblebee as a complete dick. He's a sociopathic bastard
with very little respect for his team and the rules. This is probably
so five year olds who want to stay up later and hate their mommies can
identify with him. He never learns from his mistakes, in any single
way.

There's some hints towards the finale that *maybe* Bumblebee can learn
from some of his past screwups, but we'll see if that plays out in the
third season. Until then, I retain that he's an arse.

[Gustavo Wombat]

On Jul 19, 10:29 pm, Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Jul 19, 9:51 pm, Grebo <grebog...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I found it! Vindicator's essay about Alpha Trion's power-hungry
> > manipulation of the Autobots' destiny. I kinda agree with parts of it,
> > and kinda don't with others. Either way, it's well done. Sorry the
> > linked media files are absent, but what are you gonna do?
>
> I should probably point out that Vindicator got pretty upset when I
> had cross-posted segments of his essay to ATT, back in the day.  I
> don't even know if he's active in the fandom any longer, so it may be
> a moot point, but I thought I'd mention it.  (His objection seemed to
> be mainly that the audience of ATT was less hospitable than that of
> ATTCM, but since the latter newsgroup is a ghost town and the former
> has changed considerably, it may not be as much of a concern now.)

If you post something to the internet, you have to assume that it will
survive forever and pop up in forums and contexts that you never
expected...

> That said, Vindicator shared Skyflight's talent of demonstrating that
> everything in the canon is open to interpretation.  I used to
> steadfastly maintain that there was a "right" and "wrong"
> interpretation, but I've amended that view and come to realize that
> people should feel free to think whatever they want to think about the
> events of the show.  I think it's fun to sometimes reject the
> "default" interpretation in favor of thinking outside the box.
>
> I don't agree at all that Alpha Trion was some power-hungry despot who
> manipulated time and space to his own sinister ends, but I don't
> disparage anyone who wants to think that about him.  If you enjoy that
> interpretation of the character, then you shouldn't let a little thing
> like writer intent get in your way.

Well, there's writer intent, and then there's ignoring mountains of
continuity to hold up three little nuggets and proclaim that they are
the only parts that are actually "true".

The only way to make the Decepticons non-evil in G1 is to attack the
apparently neutral and omniscient story teller(s) for the cartoon and
comics, and the people who created the boxes that clearly label them
as "Evil Decepticons".

Now, the discovery that at least some episodes of the G1 cartoon was
actually being told by some freakish Optimus Prime puppet to a small
boy goes a long way towards discrediting the cartoon, so I'm not sure
I can completely disagree with the premise that it is Autobot
propaganda...

But, if I bought an "Evil Decepticon" toy, and eventually discovered
that it wasn't evil at all, that it was a freedom fighter, I'd feel
ripped off. See how evil the Hasbro Graphic designers were?

Gustavo!

[Zobovor]

On Jul 20, 2:56 am, Gustavo Wombat <GustavoWom...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> The only way to make the Decepticons non-evil in G1 is to attack the
> apparently neutral and omniscient story teller(s) for the cartoon and
> comics, and the people who created the boxes that clearly label them
> as "Evil Decepticons".

Or you could turn it into a semantics argument and attempt to redefine
every word in the English language. What, exactly, is "evil"? One
definition might be to deliberately cause harm and suffering to other
sentient life forms. Well, okay, but what does "sentient" really
mean? Et cetera, et cetera.

Skyflight's argument was that the Decepticons looked upon humans the
same way that we humans look on cows. Are we "evil" because we
slaughter cows to make food? Why is that different from Decepticons
harvesting natural resources to make energon? The actions of the
Decepticons appear evil to us, as human beings, just as some
hypothetical cow with critical thinking skills might look at people as
evil because we kill farm animals and eat them.

> But, if I bought an "Evil Decepticon" toy, and eventually discovered
> that it wasn't evil at all, that it was a freedom fighter, I'd feel
> ripped off.

I take it you never bought Octane or Scorponok or Carnivac?

Zob

[Grebo]

Bowow!

The shining Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:

> I don't agree at all that Alpha Trion was some power-hungry despot who
> manipulated time and space to his own sinister ends,

I don't either. I DO think that he may well have deliberately
manipulated time and space... but I don't he was a power-hungry despot
who did so for his own personal gain. I think he did so for all the
right reasons.

> but I don't disparage anyone who wants to think that about him.
> If you enjoy that interpretation of the character, then you shouldn't
> let a little thing like writer intent get in your way.

I agree, actually. Truthfully, the most fascinating thing in that
essay, to me, was the section dealing with the flashback in "The
Secret of Omega Supreme." Upon re-examining the episode, I think
Vindicator is totally right in his opinion that the Robo-Smasher
didn't do any reprogramming, but rather freed Decepticon prisoners
from Autobot mind control. After all, the Robo-Smasher just shoots one
little zap at the transformer's inner workings and presto, he's all
Megatron-lovin'. I think the Robo-Smasher preforms a quick, precise
removal of some kind of Restraining Bolt.

Grebo!!!

[Not_Available321]

On Jul 20, 11:07 am, Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Jul 20, 2:56 am, Gustavo Wombat <GustavoWom...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > The only way to make the Decepticons non-evil in G1 is to attack the
> > apparently neutral and omniscient story teller(s) for the cartoon and
> > comics, and the people who created the boxes that clearly label them
> > as "Evil Decepticons".
>
> Or you could turn it into a semantics argument and attempt to redefine
> every word in the English language.  What, exactly, is "evil"?  One
> definition might be to deliberately cause harm and suffering to other
> sentient life forms.  Well, okay, but what does "sentient" really
> mean?  Et cetera, et cetera.

See, that's my problem with "Autobot Apologists." Yes, we all know
the Autobots are "good" and the Decepticons are "evil" because Hasbro
says so, and it's printed right there on the box. But certainly,
there are shades of grey at work here if we can put aside our notions
of who's evil and who's not just by looking at their faction symbol.
The only recent example I can think of is in Animated, as I am nowhere
near as versed in G1 canon as the rest of you.

In 'aFOE,' Prowl goes on a power-hungry trip and inadvertantly murders
(manslaughter charges) a nest of unborn chicks, before coming to the
realization that he went overboard in his mod-upgrade trip. No slap
on the wrist, no prosecution, just a simple admonishment from Ratchet
that put Prowl in his place, sort of (Prowl still pursues the enemy to
vindicate his crime against nature!).

In 'RotC,' we have a pair of newborne bots (Constructicons) unaware of
their environment around them and seeking a little guidance in their
newfound world. They find that help in the form of Bulkhead. Fast
forward to Autobot HQ where Bulkhead invites the Constructicons over
to meet the other Autobots. The Autobots immediately begin to
ostracize the Constructicons for their sloppy, playful, and somewhat
"drunken" behavior. And in this playful frolic, a projectile
_accidentally_ shoots off and almost takes off Sari's big, fat head.
No one was harmed or killed, but the Constructicons are immediately
ostracized and forced to leave and never return.

And interestingly enough, Prime later twists the truth about how that
event played out in 'S,NOH,' by claiming the Constructicons _tried_ to
take Sari's head off! The Constructicons didn't _try_ to kill Sari,
it was just a simple, spirituous accident. Like Mixmaster proclaims
in 'aBTC,' "I'm a builder, not a fighter!"

Now is it me, or am I seeing a double-standard here?

> Skyflight's argument was that the Decepticons looked upon humans the
> same way that we humans look on cows.  Are we "evil" because we
> slaughter cows to make food?  Why is that different from Decepticons
> harvesting natural resources to make energon?  The actions of the
> Decepticons appear evil to us, as human beings, just as some
> hypothetical cow with critical thinking skills might look at people as
> evil because we kill farm animals and eat them.

I don't know who this "Skyflight" is, but I like where he/she's going
with this...

So is the United States "evil" for bombing a sovereign country that
had absolutely nothing to do with the events of 9/11? The rest of the
world seems to think so at this point. Except us, of course!

Trolly McBeam

[Optim_1]

On 20 juil, 12:29, Grebo <grebog...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I agree, actually. Truthfully, the most fascinating thing in that
> essay, to me, was the section dealing with the flashback in "The
> Secret of Omega Supreme." Upon re-examining the episode, I think
> Vindicator is totally right in his opinion that the Robo-Smasher
> didn't do any reprogramming, but rather freed Decepticon prisoners
> from Autobot mind control. After all, the Robo-Smasher just shoots one
> little zap at the transformer's inner workings and presto, he's all
> Megatron-lovin'. I think the Robo-Smasher preforms a quick, precise
> removal of some kind of Restraining Bolt.
>
> Grebo!!!

That can be open to interpretation. How do you know that it was a
Restraining Bolt that was being removed? Was it explicitly stated? It
could be that the Robo-Smasher removed the component that dealt with
free-will, or with peace-loving tendencies or with Decepticon-hating
tendencies or so on. There is a limitless possible explanations to
what that thing was that was being removed.

To further play devil's advocate, if the Robo-Smasher was designed to
remove Autobot brainwashing from erstwhile Decepticons, then why did
Megatron not refer to this instead of making an untruthful statement
about creating the Constructicons on Earth? Why not say to his troops
that the Constructicons were long-time Decepticons existing in
Cybertron and that he freed them from the effects of Autobot
brainwashing with the Robo-Smasher? In fact, the other Decepticons
seem to be unaware of the existence of the Robo-Smasher.

As shown in the cartoon, Megatron is not above a little mind-warping
of his own. Aa the Nightbird episode shows, Bombshell states that he
loves warping minds for Megatron, as he preceeded to modify Nightbird
to serve Megatron. This implies that Bombshell, the psychological
specialist that he is, must have created the Robo-Smasher to allow
Megatron to convert TF to Decepticons.

And of course, as Vindicator notes, Megatron instructed Victor Sigma
to fill the Stunticons with loathing for the Autobots and what they
stand for. But Vindicator fails to see that this shows that Megatron,
like tin the Nightbird episode, could not be a free-will liberator
that he paints him to be. Megatron, if he was a liberator, would have
allowed the Stunticons to observe the Autobots themselves of their own
free-will and form their own opinions that the Autobots are as such.

The cartoon is full of interpretations; writer intent doesn't mean a
thing.

[Mako Crab]

Grebo, I don't know how you found this whole essay, but thanks! I've
read it before and always thought it was pretty cool. Since his
website closed down the only thing I could find is the shortened
version, which is entirely unsatisfying after you've read the extended
one. I've never been able to give proper commentary on Vinnie's
theories, but now seems like the time.

[Chad Rushing]

On Jul 20, 1:43 pm, Not_Available321 <not_available...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
> See, that's my problem with "Autobot Apologists." Yes, we all know
> the Autobots are "good" and the Decepticons are "evil" because Hasbro
> says so, and it's printed right there on the box. But certainly,
> there are shades of grey at work here if we can put aside our notions
> of who's evil and who's not just by looking at their faction symbol.
> The only recent example I can think of is in Animated, as I am nowhere
> near as versed in G1 canon as the rest of you.

I am of the opinion that particular actions and thoughts can be good
or evil, but the actors and thinkers themselves rarely are -
intrinsically- good or evil to the core. In other words, Autobots who
may generally act in a good manner towards others are still capable of
evil acts while Decepticons who may generally act in an evil manner
are still capable of good acts towards others.

That is to say that I feel fairly confident that I could judge a
deliberate -action- on the part of either faction as being objectively
good or evil (such as outright theft) while not generalizing about the
moral quality of a faction's members as a whole. Not every Autobot is
as prone as others to choose to act in a good fashion while not every
Decepticon is as prone as others to choose to act in an evil fashion.
However, any TF that is unsatisfied with the overall actions of his
particular faction should seriously consider switching sides or going
neutral in my opinion.

> In 'aFOE,' Prowl goes on a power-hungry trip and inadvertantly murders
> (manslaughter charges) a nest of unborn chicks, before coming to the
> realization that he went overboard in his mod-upgrade trip. No slap
> on the wrist, no prosecution, just a simple admonishment from Ratchet
> that put Prowl in his place, sort of (Prowl still pursues the enemy to
> vindicate his crime against nature!).

If he had accidentally murdered a car full of people instead of a nest
full of eggs, I think the situation would have been handled
differently by his peers and rightfully so.

> In 'RotC,' we have a pair of newborne bots (Constructicons) unaware of
> their environment around them and seeking a little guidance in their
> newfound world. They find that help in the form of Bulkhead. Fast
> forward to Autobot HQ where Bulkhead invites the Constructicons over
> to meet the other Autobots. The Autobots immediately begin to
> ostracize the Constructicons for their sloppy, playful, and somewhat
> "drunken" behavior. And in this playful frolic, a projectile
> _accidentally_ shoots off and almost takes off Sari's big, fat head.
> No one was harmed or killed, but the Constructicons are immediately
> ostracized and forced to leave and never return.

I think the other Autobots were turned off by the Constructicons'
rather uncouth and reckless behavior (as would I honestly be). That
is not to say that they should have ostracized the Constructions;
instead, they should have tried to be a positive influence on them by
leading by example.

Then again, it might have been that the Constructicons were just
stupid jerks and didn't care either way if they offended or hurt
anybody.

> And interestingly enough, Prime later twists the truth about how that
> event played out in 'S,NOH,' by claiming the Constructicons _tried_ to
> take Sari's head off! The Constructicons didn't _try_ to kill Sari,
> it was just a simple, spirituous accident. Like Mixmaster proclaims
> in 'aBTC,' "I'm a builder, not a fighter!"
>
> Now is it me, or am I seeing a double-standard here?

Granted, that was probably an unfair exaggeration on the part of
Optimus Prime.

> So is the United States "evil" for bombing a sovereign country that
> had absolutely nothing to do with the events of 9/11? The rest of the
> world seems to think so at this point. Except us, of course!

Who's "us?" I am an American, and I would say without reservation
that those in power who deliberately manipulated the American public
into supporting an invasion of Iraq were acting in a dishonest and,
therefore, evil manner. And I would say the same is true of the
current attempt to manipulate the public into supporting an invasion
of Iran. The United States government (like all governments
throughout history) has honestly taken (and are still taking) a lot of
actions that I would personally consider evil. "Power corrupts, and
absolute power corrupts absolutely."

- Chad

[Phillip Thorne]

On Sat, 19 Jul 2008, Grebo <greb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I found it! Vindicator's essay about Alpha Trion's power-hungry
>manipulation of the Autobots' destiny.

>[Lengthy essay snipped]

I think the essay is interesting because it's subversive: it subverts
our assumptions about who we should be rooting for in the show, and it
subverts the most obvious connect-the-dots for anything that we
weren't shown (or that, on the face of it, is a continuity error).

Now, obviously the show writers are omniscient: they *do* know who's
good, and who we should root for. Or are they? Characters sometimes
get away from their authors. Is it possible to create a story of
sufficient complexity that it has ramifications the author did not
intend or anticipate? Or, since a story is inherently interactive
with the audience, can very different views result?

Yes. When writing season 4 of "Babylon 5," JMS hinted that "at least
one-third of the audience will agree with the Shadows." That's a sign
of good writing, when the antagonists have motivations you can
sympathize with, and aren't just straw-man villains.

I'm not going to critique it point-by-point. Not at 22:37, anyway. :)

--
** Phillip Thorne ** peth...@comcast.net **************
* RPI CompSci 1998 *
** underbase.livejournal.com ***************************

[Thylacine 2000]

On Jul 19, 10:51 pm, Grebo <grebog...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I found it! Vindicator's essay about Alpha Trion:

>>the subtitle "ATTCM Version" has been selected to applaud the rigorous standards
>>of that esteemed association.

Turned out ATTCM's "standards" were as rigorous and esteemed as the
Emperor's new clothes were beautiful. Given how Decepticonism could
not exist without willful disregard for canonical evidence and undue
emphasis on revisionist quasi-fanfic, I always found it sadly appropos
that the group basically came to an end after some of the
Decepticonists running it decided that, hey, the original founding
documents didn't please them anymore and so they ought to be simply
changed and then pretend like no change ever happened.

I don't miss Decepticonism, honestly.

I like it when people are fans of whatever aspect of the show that
they actually enjoy. I like seeing people engage in creativity,
making fanfics and whatnot. I very much DON'T like people carrying on
as though other fans are gullible dupes if they accept the real
stories instead of fanfics.

Skyflight's name has come up in this thread already. He was never
really able to put together a coherent positive explanation of what
Decepticons actually stood for that was based on in-media real
evidence. Nor could he show that his claims were any more factually,
canonically supported than the mainstream claims that Decepticons were
evil, destructive, and cruel, often for just about no reason at
all.

The most popular crutch used by Decepticonists was that Decepticons
viewed humans the way humans view cattle and insects--that they show
no more regard for our well-being than we would expect other humans to
show for "lower" animals. Except--within the context of the stories
there is no evidence for that at all. Every Earth species was a
"lesser animal," and many of them, including alligators, jaguars, and
boa constrictors, stood in the way of the 'Cons. Yet only humans were
singled out for special tortures and gratuitous cruelty. Furthermore,
Decepticons also would admit all manner of beings into their ranks--
including some that were all but indistinguishable from humans. All
Decepticon choices and interactions are based upon the same core
principle as that of basic human society: the presumption, and
valuation, of sentient thought. Lord Zarak was a Decepticon; the
Autoscout was not.

With that in mind, the "cattle and ants" rationalization completely
deflates, because instead of behaving like average humans, the
Decepticons are plainly behaving like human criminals, terrorists, and
hate-groups. Humans don't decide differently, from day to day and at
the drop of a hat, whether or not to treat ants in an ant-hill as
members of their own core group. Even in a slaughterhouse, if a human
were to torture a cow with live electric wires and laugh all the
while, he wouldn't be a plain old human--he would be shunned by a
nauseated society, and probably the plant would be closed down. For
Rumble, though, that's just what humans are there for.

There was no rhyme or reason to Decepticonism. Like I said, I'm not
sorry it's largely gone.

[Zobovor]

On Jul 20, 12:43 pm, Not_Available321 <not_available...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> So is the United States "evil" for bombing a sovereign country that

> had absolutely nothing to do with the events of 9/11?  The rest of the
> world seems to think so at this point.  Except us, of course!

Nobody ever sits there and goes, "Yeah, we're the bad guys." It's
always the other guy.

Zob

[Zobovor]

On Jul 20, 12:50 pm, Optim_1 <opti...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> To further play devil's advocate, if the Robo-Smasher was designed to
> remove Autobot brainwashing from erstwhile Decepticons, then why did
> Megatron not refer to this instead of making an untruthful statement
> about creating the Constructicons on Earth? Why not say to his troops
> that the Constructicons were long-time Decepticons  existing in
> Cybertron and that he freed them from the effects of Autobot
> brainwashing with the Robo-Smasher?

To play angel's intercessor to your devil's advocate, all Megatron
actually said was, "They were worth the time we spent building them in
these caverns." He didn't say anything about programming the
Constructicon personalities or giving them life; the only reference he
made was to building their bodies. Therefore, it's entirely possible
that their Earth forms were indeed built on Earth, but that their
personality components *were* Decepticons from Cybertron who had been
affected by the robo-smasher.

> As shown in the cartoon, Megatron is not above a little mind-warping
> of his own. Aa the Nightbird episode shows, Bombshell states that he
> loves warping minds for Megatron, as he preceeded to modify Nightbird
> to serve Megatron. This implies that Bombshell, the psychological
> specialist that he is, must have created the Robo-Smasher to allow
> Megatron to convert TF to Decepticons.

Bombshell wasn't a member of Megatron's army when the Robo-Smasher was
in use. The Insecticons didn't join Megatron until they were
discovered on Earth in 1984, and Shrapnel stated clearly that he had
never met Megatron before ("I don't know you, and yet I feel a
kinship, ship"). Therefore, Bombshell couldn't possibly have created
the Robo-Smasher.

> And of course, as Vindicator notes, Megatron instructed Victor Sigma
> to fill the Stunticons with loathing for the Autobots and what they
> stand for. But Vindicator fails to see that this shows that Megatron,
> like tin the Nightbird episode, could not be a free-will liberator
> that he paints him to be. Megatron, if he was a liberator, would have
> allowed the Stunticons to observe the Autobots themselves of their own
> free-will and form their own opinions that the Autobots are as such.

I'd say Megatron had to give the Stunticons some kind of direction to
follow. Optimus Prime asked that the Aerialbots value things like
freedom, and as a result the Aerialbots willfully disregarded Autobot
ideals to the point of nearly deserting them. Optimus Prime never
asked for the Aerialbots to be filled with hatred for the Decepticons,
and as a result the Aerialbots were *enamored* with the Decepticons
and wanted to be *friends* with them. This strikes me as a serious
programming flaw!

Besides, the Stunticons were intelligent enough to exhibit critical
thinking skills. We saw later that Breakdown discovered a clever way
to free himself from Autobot imprisonment in "Masquerade"; Motormaster
made up his own mind about Galvatron's leadership style in "Webworld";
and Dead End and Wildrider drew their own conclusions about what to do
with the Autobot Matrix after stumbling across it in "The Burden
Hardest to Bear." Clearly, the Stunticons weren't simply subservient
to their original programming; they were able to learn and grow. (If
Dead End and Wildrider were still filled with "hatred for the Autobots
and all the Autobots stand for," wouldn't they have just destroyed the
Matrix on sight instead of preserving it and delivering it to
Galvatron?)

Zob

[Zobovor]

On Jul 20, 9:32 pm, Thylacine 2000 <thytwot...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I like it when people are fans of whatever aspect of the show that
> they actually enjoy.  I like seeing people engage in creativity,
> making fanfics and whatnot.  I very much DON'T like people carrying on
> as though other fans are gullible dupes if they accept the real
> stories instead of fanfics.

I don't see the Decepticon Apologist position that way. I think the
point is not to accept fan fiction in place of the canon (even
Raksha's mantra was "it's right there in the episode"), but to accept
that what happens in the show itself should not be confused with your
*interpretation* of what's happening in the show. You're only the
gullible dupe if you think that Optimus Prime *must* be a hero only
because Hasbro says so, and you're not able to take a step back and
see things from a different point of view. You don't have to accept
the idea that Optimus Prime might be evil, of course, but that
alternate interpretation of the character, even if it's in the
minority, is nonetheless just as valid.

> The most popular crutch used by Decepticonists was that Decepticons
> viewed humans the way humans view cattle and insects--that they show
> no more regard for our well-being than we would expect other humans to
> show for "lower" animals.  Except--within the context of the stories
> there is no evidence for that at all.  Every Earth species was a
> "lesser animal," and many of them, including alligators, jaguars, and
> boa constrictors, stood in the way of the 'Cons.  Yet only humans were
> singled out for special tortures and gratuitous cruelty.  Furthermore,
> Decepticons also would admit all manner of beings into their ranks--
> including some that were all but indistinguishable from humans.

I wonder if it's really as cut-and-dried as that. Let's say that
Bessie, a cow with critical thinking skills, feels like humans are
evil because they slaughter cattle to make food they arguably don't
actually need to survive. Would she no longer regard these humans as
evil if she were to learn that many of them kept cats and dogs as
pets, loving them as members of the family and keeping them well-cared
for? Or, perhaps, would this new discovery not really matter to her?

The analogy I'm illustrating here is that even when Decepticons have
formed alliances with organic species (humans, Subatlanticans,
Nebulons, whatever), it doesn't automatically follow that they regard
these allies as being equals worthy of their respect. It could be
that the human race is still entirely beneath Decepticon consideration
and yet they are amused by the prospect of manipulating humans to
their own ends, just as a dog owner keeps a pet around for his own
entertainment, not because he considers Spot an equal.

(Also, we can't really say with certainty what Starscream did to the
boa constrictor after he tore it off his shoulders in "Microbots,"
because the scene cuts away. There's no way of knowing what Ravage
did or didn't do to the jaguar he encountered in the same episode,
because the scene cuts away. We also don't know for sure what
happened to that swampful of alligators after the Decepticons landed
in it in "Child's Play," because, you guessed it, the scene cuts
away. It's *possible* the Decepticons ended up having some fun with
these creatures in the same manner they might have toyed with humans.
We just don't know.)

(If Decepticons are evil because they think it's fun to pick on
animals, are humans evil because we like to overload our washing
machines and download viruses onto our computers and drive our cars
until the transmission breaks?)

> There was no rhyme or reason to Decepticonism.  Like I said, I'm not
> sorry it's largely gone.

I can't say I miss the endless arguing and pedantry and semantic
nonsense. At the same time, though, I feel like I learned a lot from
my conversations with Skyflight. He taught me to stretch my thinking,
and I'm a wiser, more understanding person now because of him.

Zob

[Cappeca]

On 21 jul, 00:32, Thylacine 2000 <thytwot...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Skyflight's name has come up in this thread already.  He was never
> really able to put together a coherent positive explanation of what
> Decepticons actually stood for that was based on in-media real
> evidence.  Nor could he show that his claims were any more factually,
> canonically supported than the mainstream claims that Decepticons were
> evil, destructive, and cruel, often for just about no reason at
> all.
>

And you finally get to have the last word over him, don't you? He had
to die, of course, but YOU WIN! Why don't you do like Zob and learn
something with him instead, or do like Suspsy and just leave?

[Gustavo Wombat]

On Jul 20, 10:23 pm, Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Jul 20, 9:32 pm, Thylacine 2000 <thytwot...@hotm

[snip: cow]

> The analogy I'm illustrating here is that even when Decepticons have
> formed alliances with organic species (humans, Subatlanticans,
> Nebulons, whatever), it doesn't automatically follow that they regard
> these allies as being equals worthy of their respect.

It is interesting that the Headmasters were accepted by the
Decepticons. One might have expected that as soon as it was
convenient, all the little Nubulons would be killed. In stead, they
were allowed to serve side by side with the Cybertronians, and some
were even in positions of power (I'm fuzzy on my G1 comic, but I'm
pretty sure Scorponok never managed to unite all the Decepticons under
him, but he did have some non-binary-bonded troops...)

It does lend some credence to the argument that Decepticonism is a
philosophy, rather than just the forceful expansion of a faction of
Cybertronians, or a personality cult based around a strong leader. And
where the G1 media doesn't give us any insight into the philosophy of
Decepticonism, it's a flaw in the media, rather than a weakness in
Decepticonism.

> (If Decepticons are evil because they think it's fun to pick on
> animals, are humans evil because we like to overload our washing
> machines and download viruses onto our computers and drive our cars
> until the transmission breaks?)

If the washing machine was capable of feeling pain, and expressing it,
then yes.

The argument is effectively that Decepticons viewed people as no more
than animals, and tortured said animals for fun. We have adjectives
that are commonly applied to people who do these things: barbaric,
cruel, and inhuman -- or, for those who use such a word, evil.

> > There was no rhyme or reason to Decepticonism.  Like I said, I'm not
> > sorry it's largely gone.
>
> I can't say I miss the endless arguing and pedantry and semantic
> nonsense.

I was happy when it moved off to ATTCM, taking it's pedantry and
semantic nonsense with it.

> At the same time, though, I feel like I learned a lot from
> my conversations with Skyflight.  He taught me to stretch my thinking,
> and I'm a wiser, more understanding person now because of him.

Which is all well and good, but I think a lot of the Decepticon
apologists went beyond looking at things from an alternate viewpoint
and went off into selectively recalling only those aspects of the
fictions that supported their view and making generalizations from
that -- a lighter and fluffier version of just making shit up.

Gustavo!

[Gustavo Wombat]

Actually, I think as a whole, the country is pretty conflicted on that
right now...

Gustavo!

[Grebo]

Woofies!

Glad I could help, Mako! I loved this essay so much that I downloaded
the HTML from Vindicator's site back when it was still up. I grabbed a
few of the linked binaries as well, but sadly not all of them. I
figured this would be a great place to archive the material, and I
must admit I've also been eager to read what people make of it.

Grebo

[Grebo]

Arf,

Cappeca <capp...@godisdead.com> wrote:
>
> And you finally get to have the last word over him, don't you? He had
> to die, of course, but YOU WIN! Why don't you do like Zob and learn
> something with him instead, or do like Suspsy and just leave?

Damn dude! That was totally uncalled for.

Grebo

[Thylacine 2000]

I think any mentally-healthy reader of this thread, their vision not
obscured by gigantic chips on their shoulder, understood what I was
actually saying.

I was friends with Skyf, and have been open about that here throughout
the years. And it is fair to expect you to know that, given your
history of thread-stalking me to flame me for whatever shallow,
frivolous reasons you make up to justify your behavior to yourself.

Obviously you can devote a great deal of energy towards clinging to
never-ending grudges and personal hatreds. What a shame, then, that
you can't devote any of that tenacious energy to actually being right
or knowing anything.

[Optim_1]

On 21 juil, 00:53, Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Jul 20, 12:50 pm, Optim_1 <opti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > To further play devil's advocate, if the Robo-Smasher was designed to
> > remove Autobot brainwashing from erstwhile Decepticons, then why did
> > Megatron not refer to this instead of making an untruthful statement
> > about creating the Constructicons on Earth? Why not say to his troops
> > that the Constructicons were long-time Decepticons existing in
> > Cybertron and that he freed them from the effects of Autobot
> > brainwashing with the Robo-Smasher?
>
> To play angel's intercessor to your devil's advocate, all Megatron
> actually said was, "They were worth the time we spent building them in
> these caverns." He didn't say anything about programming the
> Constructicon personalities or giving them life; the only reference he
> made was to building their bodies. Therefore, it's entirely possible
> that their Earth forms were indeed built on Earth, but that their
> personality components *were* Decepticons from Cybertron who had been
> affected by the robo-smasher.

But the Constructicon forms, including the ability to combine into
Devastator, already existed long before on Cybertron. So, they could
not have been built on Earth. Since Megatron was present when the Robo-
Smasher did its work on the Constructicons, he must have been lying to
the Decepticons in that cave. Probably to conceal the existence of the
Robo-Smasher and its sinister purpose to the other Decepticons. And
besides, whoever said that the Constructicon forms were Earth forms
since they already existed on Cybertron?

> > As shown in the cartoon, Megatron is not above a little mind-warping
> > of his own. Aa the Nightbird episode shows, Bombshell states that he
> > loves warping minds for Megatron, as he preceeded to modify Nightbird
> > to serve Megatron. This implies that Bombshell, the psychological
> > specialist that he is, must have created the Robo-Smasher to allow
> > Megatron to convert TF to Decepticons.
>
> Bombshell wasn't a member of Megatron's army when the Robo-Smasher was
> in use. The Insecticons didn't join Megatron until they were
> discovered on Earth in 1984, and Shrapnel stated clearly that he had
> never met Megatron before ("I don't know you, and yet I feel a
> kinship, ship"). Therefore, Bombshell couldn't possibly have created
> the Robo-Smasher.

The Insecticons were on board in the original Decepticon cruiser that
followed the Ark and crashed on Earth. Megatron reasoned that they
must have went into an escape pod which then crashed. This implies
that Shrapnel must have been suffering from amnesia, probably caused
by the crash. So, the Insecticons must have long served Megatron and
that Bombshell must have created the Robo-Smasher for him.

> > And of course, as Vindicator notes, Megatron instructed Victor Sigma
> > to fill the Stunticons with loathing for the Autobots and what they
> > stand for. But Vindicator fails to see that this shows that Megatron,
> > like tin the Nightbird episode, could not be a free-will liberator
> > that he paints him to be. Megatron, if he was a liberator, would have
> > allowed the Stunticons to observe the Autobots themselves of their own
> > free-will and form their own opinions that the Autobots are as such.
>
> I'd say Megatron had to give the Stunticons some kind of direction to
> follow. Optimus Prime asked that the Aerialbots value things like
> freedom, and as a result the Aerialbots willfully disregarded Autobot
> ideals to the point of nearly deserting them. Optimus Prime never
> asked for the Aerialbots to be filled with hatred for the Decepticons,
> and as a result the Aerialbots were *enamored* with the Decepticons
> and wanted to be *friends* with them. This strikes me as a serious
> programming flaw!

From a military point of view, I would agree. But from a libertarian
point of view, which is what Vindicator seem to hold, this shows that
Prime is more of a free-will liberator than Megatron and therefore
that Vindicator is backing the wrong TF. Prime had every chance to
mold the Aerialbots to his liking, yet he asked Victor Sigma to "let
them think for themselves, to grow in knowledge and wisdom, and let
them always value freedom and life--wherever they find it". It could
be said that "valuing freedom and life" is a form of indoctrination
since a free-will person should decide for himself whether these
values are good, but this is a mild form of indoctrination compared to
Megatron's "fill them with hatred of the Autobots". At least Prime
could not be accused of being a hypocrite or a servant of Autobot
propaganda; he really believed in his Freedom is the right of all
sentient beings quote.

[Chad Rushing]

On Jul 21, 11:59 am, Optim_1 <opti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> From a military point of view, I would agree. But from a libertarian
> point of view, which is what Vindicator seem to hold, this shows that
> Prime is more of a free-will liberator than Megatron and therefore
> that Vindicator is backing the wrong TF. Prime had every chance to
> mold the Aerialbots to his liking, yet he asked Victor Sigma to "let
> them think for themselves, to grow in knowledge and wisdom, and let
> them always value freedom and life--wherever they find it". It could
> be said that "valuing freedom and life" is a form of indoctrination
> since a free-will person should decide for himself whether these
> values are good, but this is a mild form of indoctrination compared to
> Megatron's "fill them with hatred of the Autobots". At least Prime
> could not be accused of being a hypocrite or a servant of Autobot
> propaganda; he really believed in his Freedom is the right of all
> sentient beings quote.

I wholeheartedly agree. Here's hoping that Optimus Prime is adopted
as the official spokesman of the libertarian philosophical (not
political) movement (which I personally support). His famed quote
sums the whole philosophy up fairly nicely.

On the other hand, Megatron ("Peace through tyranny") and the
Decepticons seemed to be extremely authoritarian, the absolute
opposite of libertarian: "Do as we say or be destroyed!" They seemed
to -collectively- (maybe not individually) have very little respect
for the lives, liberty, and property of others in the pursuit of their
goals with murder, enslavement, and theft being totally acceptable
methods of operation.

- Chad

[Zobovor]

On Jul 21, 1:55 am, Gustavo Wombat <GustavoWom...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> It is interesting that the Headmasters were accepted by the
> Decepticons. One might have expected that as soon as it was

> convenient, all the little Nebulons would be killed.

Well, in the cartoon, Galvatron absolutely did NOT accept the Nebulons
into the Decepticon forces. He referred to them as "filthy organic
beings" and was utterly disgusted by the idea that the other
Decepticons had these nasty life forms crawling around inside their
bodies. He would have turned them all into crispy critters right then
and there if Zarak hadn't shown up and used the plasma energy key as a
bargaining tool.

The cartoon was never really clear on just what binary-bonding
actually was, or how normal Headmasters were different from apparently
non-living Transformers like Scorponok, but I suspect that Galvatron
might have only kept Zarak around because he was the one who
controlled Scorponok.

>Instead, they were allowed to serve side by side with the Cybertronians,

>and some were even in positions of power (I'm fuzzy on my G1 comic,
>but I'm pretty sure Scorponok never managed to unite all the Decepticons
>under him, but he did have some non-binary-bonded troops...)

In the comic, as I recall, Scorponok had most of the 1987 characters
under his command, including the Terrorcons and the Duocons and
Sixshot. I wonder if these guys knew that their leader had been
effectively been supplanted by a creature who--in the words of Blot--
made squishy sounds when you stepped on him?

(I wonder if becoming a Targetmaster was really binary-bonding at
all. Having an organic being crawl into your handheld gun isn't quite
the same thing as having your original head REMOVED and put in storage
so that an organic being in an exo-suit could replace it and go around
masquerading as a Transformer!)

> The argument is effectively that Decepticons viewed people as no more
> than animals, and tortured said animals for fun. We have adjectives
> that are commonly applied to people who do these things: barbaric,
> cruel, and inhuman -- or, for those who use such a word, evil.

The Decepticons never referred to humans as animals, though. They
used words like "foolish insects" and "human germs," which suggests
they regarded people in the same way we might regard mosquitos. In
today's society, we do place some value on the lives of animals (even
the ones we slaughter so we can eat them), and we have animal cruelty
laws in place to help prevent their abuse. We have no such laws about
swatting flies or stomping on ants or electrocuting moths with high-
voltage bug zappers. When it comes to other species, it seems that
the closer on the evolutionary scale they are to us, the higher we
regard them. I think that a hypothetical alien species that had
evolved from insects instead of mammals, though, might find our
willful disregard for the lives of insects to be abhorrent.

Is it evil for a person to crush the body of a housefly with a fly
swatter, an instrument specifically designed to destroy a member of
that species? Or is such an act quickly forgotten because insects are
lesser beings which we consider little more than annoying pests to be
dealt with, even though they owned this planet long before we were
here and outnumber us by the billions? Is it evil for a child to
incinerate an army ant with a magnifying glass, or is this act
forgivable because we consider ants to be plentiful and expendible,
and such behavior is really more curiously playful than willfully
malicious?

>I think a lot of the Decepticon apologists went beyond looking at things
>from an alternate viewpoint and went off into selectively recalling only those
>aspects of the fictions that supported their view and making generalizations
>from that -- a lighter and fluffier version of just making shit up.

Well, I think a lot of people do that without realizing it. Any time
somebody claims a scene didn't "really" happen the way we see it in
the episode (because a character was miscolored, or is speaking with
another character's voice, or the plot contradicts a previous story),
they're practicing the same sort of selective validation.

Zob

[Thylacine 2000]

On Jul 21, 1:23 am, Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Jul 20, 9:32 pm, Thylacine 2000 <thytwot...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Every Earth species was a
> > "lesser animal," and many of them, including alligators, jaguars, and
> > boa constrictors, stood in the way of the 'Cons. Yet only humans were
> > singled out for special tortures and gratuitous cruelty. Furthermore,
> > Decepticons also would admit all manner of beings into their ranks--
> > including some that were all but indistinguishable from humans.
>
> I wonder if it's really as cut-and-dried as that. Let's say that
> Bessie, a cow with critical thinking skills, feels like humans are
> evil because they slaughter cattle to make food they arguably don't
> actually need to survive. Would she no longer regard these humans as
> evil if she were to learn that many of them kept cats and dogs as
> pets, loving them as members of the family and keeping them well-cared
> for? Or, perhaps, would this new discovery not really matter to her?

That's actually kind of where I was hoping this would head. In a
situation like that, we know what the human reasons are for the
different degrees of exploiting other creatures. In the purported
Decepticon parallel, we don't know at all--there's nothing in-media
that spells it out, and their behavior *when viewed under the demand
that they be seen as heroic* seems completely arbitrary and self-
contradictory. Why WOULD the Decepticons allow Zarak to wear the
faction sigil but leave Archeville to drown? It is not enough, for
me, to be told that "they have their reasons"; I want to know what
those reasons actually are, and where the canonical proof of their
existence came from. I think that if the point of a post is to
overturn the initial meaning of the story, it has to be impeccably
well-sourced and internally consistent. It's a very high burden of
proof.

> The analogy I'm illustrating here is that even when Decepticons have
> formed alliances with organic species (humans, Subatlanticans,
> Nebulons, whatever), it doesn't automatically follow that they regard

> these allies as being equals worthy of their respect.....
> (Also, we can't really say with certainty [what happened to the boa, jaguar, and alligators) because the scene cuts

> away. It's *possible* the Decepticons ended up having some fun with
> these creatures in the same manner they might have toyed with humans.
> We just don't know.)

Does it really matter what was "possible but unshown"? All we have is
what the story showed us; anything that went totally undepicted cannot
be important, so it's not like people could seriously expect to make a
strong counter-explanation for Decepticon behavior based upon things
that might have been shown if-only. We saw the Decepticons playing
"human baseball", torturing humans with electric shocks and laughing
at the screams, "teaching lessons in sorrow," that whole ugly
business. They cannot be passed off as actually NOT mimicking the
human valuation of sentient thought (as further part of their pretty
absolute mimicing of human society, which involves them in human moral
judgments) because they actually might have been playing "jaguar
baseball" in a cut scene.

> (If Decepticons are evil because they think it's fun to pick on
> animals, are humans evil because we like to overload our washing
> machines and download viruses onto our computers and drive our cars
> until the transmission breaks?)

Humans think it's evil to pick on animals; there are exhaustive anti-
cruelty laws and numerous humane societies out there. We have
normalized killing, even *exterminating* animals, but the enjoyment of
cruelty and inflicting pain on its own has been judged as aberrant by
modern civilized society.

Harping on my same old point again: if the Decepticons actually did
have a different moral ethic organizing their society, it is never
shown in the actual series, and neither back in the day nor now do I
validate the idea that they simply must have had a different one and
that its alleged, ever-unspecified existence gives them a moral pass
for their gratuitous sadism.

> > There was no rhyme or reason to Decepticonism. Like I said, I'm not
> > sorry it's largely gone.
>
> I can't say I miss the endless arguing and pedantry and semantic
> nonsense. At the same time, though, I feel like I learned a lot from
> my conversations with Skyflight. He taught me to stretch my thinking,
> and I'm a wiser, more understanding person now because of him.

I wouldn't have doubted it. I'm specifically saying that it is
Decepticonism--the philosophy and argumentative method, once adhered
to by a good number of outspoken fans here and elsewhere--that I do
not miss.

[Zobovor]

On Jul 21, 10:59 am, Optim_1 <opti...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> But the Constructicon forms, including the ability to combine into
> Devastator, already existed long before on Cybertron. So, they could
> not have been built on Earth. Since Megatron was present when the Robo-
> Smasher did its work on the Constructicons, he must have been lying to
> the Decepticons in that cave. Probably to conceal the existence of the
> Robo-Smasher and its sinister purpose to the other Decepticons. And
> besides, whoever said that the Constructicon forms were Earth forms
> since they already existed on Cybertron?

I agree that there's a contradiction, so we can probably conclude that
*somebody* is spreading misinformation. It seems to me that we can
probably divide elements of the canon into three categories:

1) Things that we actually see happen in the episode in real-time;
these events cannot be disputed.
2) Things characters actually say in the episode; their words cannot
be disputed, but the meaning of their words may be open to
interpretation.
3) Claims that characters make about current or past events
(including visual interpretations of these stories depicted in
flashback); the accuracy of these claims may be questioned.

Most of the events shown in "The Secret of Omega Supreme" were
presented in the form of a story told by Omega Supreme. The only way
we can know for certain whether his statements are true would be if
other characters validate them. Scrapper also mentioned that Omega
Supreme was affected by the Robo-Smasher, so we can probably accept
this as having actually happened. With that in mind, can we really
consider the brain-damaged Omega Supreme to be a reliable
storyteller? According to Omega Supreme, the Constructicons had Earth-
style vehicle modes millions of years ago on Cybertron. Does that
make sense to you? Or is it possible Omega Supreme is confused/lying/
mistaken?

Incidentally, the construction workers from "Heavy Metal War"
recognized the Constructicons as having contemporary Earth vehicle
forms. Were their forms in fact Cybertronic in origin, the foreman
wouldn't have assumed that somebody had issued a work order for
additional equipment; he would have instantly pegged them as alien in
design. (This wasn't an isolated incident, either. Another
construction worker expressed surprise in "The Master Builders" that
Mixmaster didn't have a driver, but he didn't stop to question the
make and model of the cement mixer because he was already well
acquainted with it.)

> The Insecticons were on board in the original Decepticon cruiser that
> followed the Ark and crashed on Earth. Megatron reasoned that they
> must have went into an escape pod which then crashed.

Megatron also mentions that their escape pod "was launched before our
own starship crashed on Earth four million years ago." This seems to
suggest that the Insecticons originated from a different ship. Why
else would Megatron use the phrase "our own starship" if not to
distinguish it from another, separate Decepticon starship (i.e., one
that was not "our own" but rather someone else's)?

That said, I don't necessarily think that Bombshell needs to be
involved with the creation of the Robo-Smasher for your argument to
make sense. Doesn't Omega Supreme claim that Megatron himself had
built the thing? (Assuming we can trust anything Omega says, of
course.)

>Prime had every chance to mold the Aerialbots to his liking, yet he asked
>Victor Sigma to "let them think for themselves, to grow in knowledge and
>wisdom, and let them always value freedom and life--wherever they find it".
>It could be said that "valuing freedom and life" is a form of indoctrination
> since a free-will person should decide for himself whether these
> values are good, but this is a mild form of indoctrination compared to
> Megatron's "fill them with hatred of the Autobots".

Well, it seems that just because you ask Vector Sigma to do something
doesn't mean it actually *does* it. The Aerialbots obviously got the
whole idea about valuing freedom (even to the point of threatening to
defect), but if the Aerialbots did indeed value "life wherever they
find it," then why did the ones under Silverbolt's command balk at the
idea of rescuing the captive government leaders from the Decepticons
in "War Dawn," dismissing them as just a bunch of "stupid humans"?
Either the Aerialbots had already rejected their initial programming
within a matter of weeks, or Vector Sigma just wasn't very good at
following instructions. Therefore, one supposes the edict to be
Autobot-haters was only a temporary stepping stone, not a lifelong
philosophy that would be permanently hard-wired into the Stunticons'
brains. (This is demonstrated in "Cosmic Rust" when the Decepticons
capture Perceptor. Dead End politely invites Perceptor aboard their
getaway craft, something a robot "filled with hatred for the Autobots"
probably wouldn't do!)

Zob

[Onslaught Six]

On Jul 21, 1:25 pm, Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:

> I think that a hypothetical alien species that had
> evolved from insects instead of mammals, though, might find our
> willful disregard for the lives of insects to be abhorrent.

Ever see Men In Black? The main villain is basically a giant cockroach
alien who gets massively angry when Will Smith crushes his auntie.

> Is it evil for a person to crush the body of a housefly with a fly
> swatter, an instrument specifically designed to destroy a member of
> that species?  Or is such an act quickly forgotten because insects are
> lesser beings which we consider little more than annoying pests to be
> dealt with, even though they owned this planet long before we were
> here and outnumber us by the billions?  Is it evil for a child to
> incinerate an army ant with a magnifying glass, or is this act
> forgivable because we consider ants to be plentiful and expendible,
> and such behavior is really more curiously playful than willfully
> malicious?

I had a thought about this recently. "Eheheh, it'd be funny if one day
we all wake up in Hell because we all squished a lot of bugs."

It also reminds me of a scene in this anime film version of The Wizard
of Oz I have where the Tin Man accidentally crushes a bug, and mourns
for it.

[Onslaught Six]

On Jul 21, 3:32 am, Cappeca <capp...@godisdead.com> wrote:

> And you finally get to have the last word over him, don't you? He had
> to die, of course, but YOU WIN! Why don't you do like Zob and learn
> something with him instead, or do like Suspsy and just leave?

Who are you, again?

[Mako Crab]

Spoiler alert for anyone that hasn't seen Wall E yet
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
There's a scene right near the very end where a rebuilt Wall E, devoid
of personality, drives right over his little cockroach friend. The
entire audience gasped with sadness (he was his only friend in the
whole world!).

[Grebo]

To me it's pretty plain and simple that the Decepticons are evil, but
of course I see the validity of this debate. I even find it
interesting. However, the entire "Decepticon apologist: principle
seems to hinge on the fact that the Decepticons are alien robots.
Which makes me wonder...

Among GI Joe fans, are there Cobra apologists?

I can understand fans liking Cobra, sure. But it's patently clear that
Cobra is evil and up to no good. Admittedly, they're ignorant and
incompetent in the cartoon, but in the comics they're more capable.
Still evil, though.

So... if the Decepticons were humans, would "Decepticon Apologist-ism"
still be possible?

Probably.

Grebobscuria

[Chad Rushing]

On Jul 21, 3:06 pm, Onslaught Six <Onslaught...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Who are you, again?

I am pretty sure that he is one of the ATTers who was more active on
the newsgroup in the past. They occasionally resurface when some
quarrel from ATT's dark past comes up again.

- Chad

[Zobovor]

On Jul 21, 3:21 pm, Grebo <grebog...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Among GI Joe fans, are there Cobra apologists?

I think that G.I. Joe: the Movie gave us a legitimate reason for
Cobra's activities beyond just being a "ruthless terrorist
organization determined to rule the world." Golobulus and the
inhabitants of Cobra-La had essentially owned the planet for hundreds
of thousands of years when humans sprouted up, seemingly overnight,
and took over the place with their horribly offensive inorganic
technology. The very best bad guys in fiction are never just "evil
for evil's sake," but have their own motivations and reasons for doing
what they do. I'm sure Cobra doesn't think of *themselves* as evil.
To Golobulus, it's G.I. Joe who are the terrorists, not Cobra!

One presumes that if Cobra Commander had actually ever been
*successful* in defeating G.I. Joe and conquering the planet, his next
step would have been to seed the planet with Cobra-Lallian
technology. We just never saw him get to that stage because he was,
erm, kind of a dumbass. (But we still love him so.)

Zob

[Grebo]

Oy vey, Zob. :-) Leave it to your fevered canniness to bring Cobra-
La -- the derided, "special" child on the GI Joe bus -- into this! You
do have a good(ish) point, but.

Let's leave Cobra-La out of this. Let's go with the more
conventionally-recognized origin and backstory of Cobra -- the Evil
Terrorist Organization Determined To Rule The World -- the one founded
by a mysterious, masked man with uncanny powers of charismatic
leadership (or shrieky irritation, depending on who you ask.)

Are there Cobra Apologists for THOSE guys? Could there be?

Grebonward and upward

[Onslaught Six]

On Jul 21, 10:47 pm, Grebo <grebog...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Oy vey, Zob.  :-)   Leave it to your fevered canniness to bring Cobra-
> La -- the derided, "special" child on the GI Joe bus -- into this! You
> do have a good(ish) point, but.

I agree. Cobra-La was horrible. Even the name was a joke! Seriously!
The guy 'said' it was, but crazy-ass Hasbro liked it.

> Let's leave Cobra-La out of this. Let's go with the more
> conventionally-recognized origin and backstory of Cobra -- the Evil
> Terrorist Organization Determined To Rule The World -- the one founded
> by a mysterious, masked man with uncanny powers of charismatic
> leadership (or shrieky irritation, depending on who you ask.)
>
> Are there Cobra Apologists for THOSE guys? Could there be?

I have never heard of any Cobra Apologists. I think it's partially the
fact that--for whatever reasons--nobody seems to question the
"canonicity" of the material, as Decepticon Apologists do. A 'Con
Apologist would take evidence--like the comics--and go "Well, that's
simply Autobot propoganda!" whereas a Cobra Apologist wouldn't do
that.

I agree somewhat with Cobra's ideals (or at least sympathize)--big
business bad, little guy good--but I think, much like the majority of
TF fans, that Joe fans tend to agree that Cobra's means do not justify
the ends. Cobra Commander is simply a Bad Guy, and it's entirely
possible to picture Cobra soldiers doing tons of Eeeevil things.

That said, it's difficult to pigeonhole any single faction as
*entirely* Good or Evil. Mirage, for example, is an apathetic stuck-up
who couldn't really care less about the Autobot cause--he'd rather be
hunting turbofoxes on Cybertron. (It also just occured to me how much
his disappearing ability would come in handy with that.)
Thundercracker, meanwhile, is a rebel and is unsure of the Decepticon
cause--he goes along with it, but only because he's 'tried' to fight
against Megatron and failed. At least, that's how I always see it.
Thundy's the eldest--he's questioned the authority, and he doesn't
like it, but he realizes there's nothing he can do, so. Screamer's the
middle child, so he's pissy and trying to rebel against Megs. Skywarp
is the youngest and is an idiot, and blindly follows Megs entirely.

Or maybe I made that all up somehow. But it's fun to think about.

But yeah. I think it's just that Cobra has been shown--or at least
implied--to do Really Bad Things and that makes them justifyibly Bad.
And nobody bothers to question the fiction because...well, either Joe
fans have way 'more' sense than TF Fans, or they have 'less.' And I'm
not about to get into a debate over which it is.

There's all kinds of moral issues concerning war, though, like what
makes Cobra Soldier Jimmy Bob any more evil than, say, Flint? How do
we know Jimmy Bob has personally done anything wrong, besides putting
on a dark blue uniform and a red mask? And that's, truly, what Joe
fiction *should* be more about.

Cobra Commander is totally evil, though. Dude kicks puppies!
http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Cobra_Commander

[Onslaught Six]

On Jul 21, 6:38 pm, Chad Rushing <notu...@aol.com> wrote:

> I am pretty sure that he is one of the ATTers who was more active on
> the newsgroup in the past.  They occasionally resurface when some
> quarrel from ATT's dark past comes up again.

Actually, that was intended as an insult to him. Dude pops out of
nowhere to insult someone who clearly hangs around more, spouts off
some stuff, foams at the mouth, and then doesn't show up again for a
while.

[SteveD]

For some reason, I'm hearing BM Megatron crow "EVIL - TRIUMPHS!"

-SteveD

[Grebo]

Woof!

The intelligent Onslaught Six <Onslaught...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> There's all kinds of moral issues concerning war, though, like what
> makes Cobra Soldier Jimmy Bob any more evil than, say, Flint? How do
> we know Jimmy Bob has personally done anything wrong, besides putting
> on a dark blue uniform and a red mask? And that's, truly, what Joe
> fiction *should* be more about.

Word. I actually have it, in "my Joe-verse," that Cobra Vipers are
clone soldiers (a la the sucky Star Wars prequels, yes). In fact, I
have VIPER being an acroynm for

Versatile
Individual
Programmed for
Environmental/Equipment
Readiness

I loved it in that Robot Chicken episode where Mindbender's cloning
machine was pumping out Vipers, and a faulty one stumbles out,
blurting "hail Nobra!" Mindbender goes after it with an axe. Heh!!!

Grebo-Joe

[Not_Available321]

On Jul 21, 12:38 am, Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:

> Nobody ever sits there and goes, "Yeah, we're the bad guys."  It's
> always the other guy.

True, true... but we pointed the finger first.

Trolly McBeam

[Not_Available321]

On Jul 20, 10:38 pm, Phillip Thorne <petho...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Jul 2008, Grebo <grebog...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >I found it! Vindicator's essay about Alpha Trion's power-hungry
> >manipulation of the Autobots' destiny.
> >[Lengthy essay snipped]
>
> I think the essay is interesting because it's subversive: it subverts
> our assumptions about who we should be rooting for in the show, and it
> subverts the most obvious connect-the-dots for anything that we
> weren't shown (or that, on the face of it, is a continuity error).
>
> Now, obviously the show writers are omniscient: they *do* know who's
> good, and who we should root for.  Or are they?  Characters sometimes
> get away from their authors.  Is it possible to create a story of
> sufficient complexity that it has ramifications the author did not
> intend or anticipate?  Or, since a story is inherently interactive
> with the audience, can very different views result?
>
> Yes.  When writing season 4 of "Babylon 5," JMS hinted that "at least
> one-third of the audience will agree with the Shadows."  That's a sign
> of good writing, when the antagonists have motivations you can
> sympathize with, and aren't just straw-man villains.

I like this entire post and think it sums up everything nicely.
Christopher Nolan says pretty much the same thing about Dark Knight;
he made what he thought was a pretty top notch movie, now it's up to
the audience to decide and interpret the material. And holy shit,
what a movie.

Trolly McBeam

[Zobovor]

On Jul 21, 11:29 am, Thylacine 2000 <thytwot...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> [Decepticon] behavior *when viewed under the demand

> that they be seen as heroic* seems completely arbitrary and self-
> contradictory. Why WOULD the Decepticons allow Zarak to wear the
> faction sigil but leave Archeville to drown? It is not enough, for
> me, to be told that "they have their reasons"; I want to know what
> those reasons actually are, and where the canonical proof of their
> existence came from.

It seems like Megatron and Arkeville had an arrangement through which
Arkeville would provide Megatron with hypno-chips and an army of human
slaves, and in exchange, Megatron agreed to give Arkeville the Earth
when he was done plundering its energy reserves. By the end of "The
Ultimate Doom," both parties had honored their end of the agreement.
Megatron didn't kill Arkeville or send one of the Decepticons to
eliminate him; he just left him on Earth, since their alliance had
ended.

Also, we only saw Galvatron and Lord Zarak cooperating together for
one episode; we don't know how their working relationship might have
panned out, given enough time. (As a frame of reference, iIt took
Megatron three episodes to decide he'd had enough of Dr. Arkeville and
two episodes to get rid of Shawn Berger.) It's possible that
Galvatron terminated his alliance with Zarak shortly after their
defeat in "The Rebirth," but there's no way to be sure. I don't think
one episode is enough, on its own, to fully evaluate Galvatron's
relationship with Zarak.

> Does it really matter what was "possible but unshown"? All we have is
> what the story showed us; anything that went totally undepicted cannot
> be important, so it's not like people could seriously expect to make a
> strong counter-explanation for Decepticon behavior based upon things
> that might have been shown if-only.

I agree that hypothetical "what-if?" scenarios can't really be used to
prove or disprove an argument, but it's important to acknowledge that
some events must have transpired that were not depicted in an
episode. To claim that Spike is really an android because we never
see him eat or sleep or use the restroom would be a preposterous
claim, at best, and it's really not a tremendous stretch of the
imagination to assume that he probably *does* do all of these things,
even if there isn't an episode you can point to as proof.

The cartoon really *was* shown from a decidedly Autobot point of
view. Whenever there was a personality conflict between two Autobots,
it gets resolved almost without exception (Cliffjumper and Mirage in
"Traitor"; Inferno and Red Alert in "Auto Berserk"; Brawn and
Perceptor in "Microbots"). Whenever there's a personality conflict
between the Decepticons, most of the time we *never* see the
resolution. We just see them fighting, then the scene cuts away. If
you only look at what we see in the episodes, you might conclude that
the Autobots are good at solving interpersonal conflicts between
themselves but the Decepticons must just suck at it, simply because we
don't really ever get to watch the Decepticons kiss and make up.

We *know* there's stuff going on behind the scenes that we're not
being shown, though. At the end of "A Plague of Insecticons,"
Megatron vows to destroy the Insecticons and chases off after them
into the sky. Obviously Megatron didn't destroy the Insecticons,
because we see them again in "The Insecticon Syndrome." We're not
afforded the benefit of watching Megatron patch things up with the
Insecticons, but *something* must have happened to make Megatron
change his mind. At the end of "The Burden Hardest to Bear,"
Galvatron is determined to destroy Scourge, and the last time we see
the Decepticons in that episode, Galvatron catches him to Scourge and
blasts him in cannon mode. We know that some kind of resolution
between them must have taken place, though, because Scourge is back on
the payroll, apparently no worse for wear, in the very next episode.

The real reason for this, of course, is because the Autobots are the
stars of the show; the Decepticons are just the antagonists. One
result of this storytelling device, though, is that we end up with a
somewhat one-sided presentation of events. We get to see the
Decepticons attack the Autobots and taunt the humans, because it's
relevant to a story about the Autobots. We don't really ever get to
see the Decepticons doing whatever it is they do when they're *not*
attacking the Autobots, whether it's repairing their wounded or just
hanging around at their base. This gives the viewer the impression
that all the Decepticons really ever *do* is attack the Autobots, even
though we know they must repair their wounded or hang around their
base at *some* point (because they're fresh for battle every time we
see them, and according to episodes like "Transport to Oblivion" and
"Auto Bop," sometimes they remain at their base for months at a time.)

To sum up, if we generally accept the idea that Spike is really a
normal human being, and that he does all his eating and sleeping and
using the restroom when we're not looking, then I think we also need
to accept that there are other things going on with the Decepticons--
possibly important things--that we as the audience simply don't get to
watch.

The propaganda films produced during World War II were highly biased
towards the American point of view (understandably so since they were
produced by Americans), and as a result they depicted Germans as
universally evil creatures who existed purely to destroy us. These
films never showed a German mother rocking and nursing a newborn baby,
or a German father playing catch with his son, or a young German
couple holding hands and watching the sun set. Are we to conclude
that these things must never have happened, or can we allow for the
possibility that the authors of the film were being deliberately
selective about what we did and did not see? If a person watching
this film reached the conclusion that Germans are evil to the core, is
he really being given enough information to make an informed decision?

> Humans think it's evil to pick on animals; there are exhaustive anti-
> cruelty laws and numerous humane societies out there. We have
> normalized killing, even *exterminating* animals, but the enjoyment of
> cruelty and inflicting pain on its own has been judged as aberrant by
> modern civilized society.

I won't argue against the notion that some humans do indeed think it's
evil to pick on animals. However, we also have organized hunting
rituals in which we shoot and kill animals like deer and moose which
we have no intention of eating. People go fishing as a sport,
displaying the gutted carcasses of their kills as trophies. Reputable
wildlife museums have entire walls devoted to the display of dead
butterflies, hung with sewing pins unceremoniously piercing their
bodies. Animal shelters routinely destroy hundreds of stray cats
every week.

In each of the above examples, there's a justification that we provide
explaining why the act of killing these animals isn't really a bad
thing (there are strict laws in place that regulate what types of
animals hunters can kill, and how many, and during what time of the
year; euthanasia helps control the unwanted pet population). You're
right that enjoying cruelty is looked down upon. Why is it okay to
trick fish into biting a sharp metal hook, or hiding in the trees in
camouflage clothing to stalk a deer that has no hope of defending
itself? The answer is that we've decided this isn't really cruelty at
all, so it's okay to enjoy these activities.

By contrast, the Decepticon crimes against humanity have been
comparatively mild. It's entirely within the realm of possibility
that the Decepticons could have hunted humans for sport if they'd so
chosen, hooking them pointed metal implements or pumping their bodies
full of high-velocity projectiles. Decepticon behavior towards humans
on the whole seems more playful than vicious, given that they engaged
in some admittedly rowdy taunting (the "human baseball" games and
Rumble deriving some amusement in watching them get zapped) without
actually killing anyone (that we know of).

> Harping on my same old point again: if the Decepticons actually did
> have a different moral ethic organizing their society, it is never
> shown in the actual series, and neither back in the day nor now do I
> validate the idea that they simply must have had a different one and
> that its alleged, ever-unspecified existence gives them a moral pass
> for their gratuitous sadism.

I don't necessarily think a completely separate moral ethic is
necessary. The Decepticons are at war with the Autobots, and the
humans allied themselves with the Autobots almost immediately after
their awakening on Earth. That makes the humans enemies of the
Decepticons during wartime, doesn't it? If you begin with the premise
that the Decepticons operate using a similar-or-identical belief
system to our own, doesn't wartime pretty much justify any acts of
aggression against your enemy?

I think what it ultimately comes down to is that what does or does not
constitute evil depends entirely on your point of view. Most human
beings (both real-life ones and the fictional ones within the cartoon
universe) would agree that the Decepticons are absolutely evil,
because they willfully commit crimes against humanity. Surely the
Decepticons don't consider *themselves* to be evil, though, any more
than a fisherman is evil for catching fish or a game hunter is evil
for shooting an elk. To ask the question "are the Decepticons evil?"
implies that there's a universal standard by which their actions can
be measured, but the standards are highly variable depending on your
viewpoint. (To touch on the World War II example once more, there was
a time when we believed all Germans were evil. The Germans no doubt
believed Americans were evil. Was one party right and the other
wrong? Or is it simply a matter of perspective?)

> I'm specifically saying that it is Decepticonism--the philosophy and
> argumentative method, once adhered to by a good number of outspoken
> fans here and elsewhere--that I do not miss.

Well, I've enjoyed looking at things from the other side of the fence,
but I promise I won't make it a habit. :)

Zob

[SteveD]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:18:50 -0700 (PDT), Not_Available321
<not_avai...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Alpha Trion the manipulator]

>I like this entire post and think it sums up everything nicely.
>Christopher Nolan says pretty much the same thing about Dark Knight;
>he made what he thought was a pretty top notch movie, now it's up to
>the audience to decide and interpret the material. And holy shit,
>what a movie.

Eh, DK didn't do that much for me. It was OK, but I wouldn't get the DVD.

-SteveD

[SteveD]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 20:08:26 -0700 (PDT), Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:

[points of view]

>I agree that hypothetical "what-if?" scenarios can't really be used to
>prove or disprove an argument, but it's important to acknowledge that
>some events must have transpired that were not depicted in an
>episode. To claim that Spike is really an android because we never
>see him eat or sleep or use the restroom would be a preposterous
>claim, at best, and it's really not a tremendous stretch of the
>imagination to assume that he probably *does* do all of these things,
>even if there isn't an episode you can point to as proof.

I do have a silly fanfic idea which has many of the G1 human cast
accidentally and unknowingly 'modified' by a plot device originating on
the Ark, purely to explain some of the odder moments of cartoon and comic
(mainly how they manage to survive near-crippling experiences over and
over, but also funnier things like Spike's metallic punch sound effect
from MTMTE).

>If
>you only look at what we see in the episodes, you might conclude that
>the Autobots are good at solving interpersonal conflicts between
>themselves but the Decepticons must just suck at it, simply because we
>don't really ever get to watch the Decepticons kiss and make up.

Fanfic to the, uh, rescue?

>We don't really ever get to
>see the Decepticons doing whatever it is they do when they're *not*
>attacking the Autobots, whether it's repairing their wounded or just
>hanging around at their base.

Fanfic to the- ! OH GOD MY EYES

>By contrast, the Decepticon crimes against humanity have been
>comparatively mild. It's entirely within the realm of possibility
>that the Decepticons could have hunted humans for sport if they'd so
>chosen, hooking them pointed metal implements or pumping their bodies
>full of high-velocity projectiles. Decepticon behavior towards humans
>on the whole seems more playful than vicious, given that they engaged
>in some admittedly rowdy taunting (the "human baseball" games and
>Rumble deriving some amusement in watching them get zapped) without
>actually killing anyone (that we know of).

Honestly, there are plenty of human beings who have exactly the same
attitude towards their fellow sapients already, so it's not that much of a
stretch.

>The Decepticons are at war with the Autobots, and the
>humans allied themselves with the Autobots almost immediately after
>their awakening on Earth. That makes the humans enemies of the
>Decepticons during wartime, doesn't it?

Do the Decepticons even consider the humans worthy of 'opponent' status,
though? "Squishy things which the Autobots are using as a fuel source, but
which we can get fuel/material from too" seems to be the bulk of it.

-SteveD

[Onslaught Six]

On Jul 22, 7:06 pm, Grebo <grebog...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I loved it in that Robot Chicken episode where Mindbender's cloning
> machine was pumping out Vipers, and a faulty one stumbles out,
> blurting "hail Nobra!" Mindbender goes after it with an axe. Heh!!!

Weren't those Blueshirts, though?

The episode portraying the incident with the Weather Dominator as if
it were an actual military battle was great, too. "Oh, great. Here
goes the Etch-A-Sketch..."

[Onslaught Six]

On Jul 22, 9:18 pm, Not_Available321 <not_available...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> I like this entire post and think it sums up everything nicely.
> Christopher Nolan says pretty much the same thing about Dark Knight;
> he made what he thought was a pretty top notch movie, now it's up to
> the audience to decide and interpret the material.  And holy shit,
> what a movie.

I so agree. I 'love' what they did with Two-Face, and Ledger's Joker
was awesome.

[Onslaught Six]

On Jul 23, 3:40 am, SteveD <use...@vo.id.au> wrote:

> Do the Decepticons even consider the humans worthy of 'opponent' status,
> though? "Squishy things which the Autobots are using as a fuel source, but
> which we can get fuel/material from too" seems to be the bulk of it.

Yeah. I'm reminded of the live-action movie. "Stupid insects tried to
shoot me!"

[Not_Available321]

On Jul 22, 11:08 pm, Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:

> I don't necessarily think a completely separate moral ethic is
> necessary.  The Decepticons are at war with the Autobots, and the
> humans allied themselves with the Autobots almost immediately after
> their awakening on Earth.  That makes the humans enemies of the
> Decepticons during wartime, doesn't it?  If you begin with the premise
> that the Decepticons operate using a similar-or-identical belief
> system to our own, doesn't wartime pretty much justify any acts of
> aggression against your enemy?

To paraphrase our great Decider, George W., "You're either with us or
against us."

And let's not forget the internment camps we placed Japanese
Americans, who had nothing to do with the bombing, in after the attack
on Pearl Harbor.

Trolly McBeam

[Suspsy]

On Jul 22, 11:08 pm, Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:

> To sum up, if we generally accept the idea that Spike is really a
> normal human being, and that he does all his eating and sleeping and
> using the restroom when we're not looking, then I think we also need
> to accept that there are other things going on with the Decepticons--
> possibly important things--that we as the audience simply don't get to
> watch.

If they truly were important though, then they would have been
depicted on-screen. I have no doubt that the Decepticons engage in
frivolous, non-combat related activities when they're not out
terrorising humans and trying to kill Autobots, but that doesn't
change the fact that they commit such crimes.

> The propaganda films produced during World War II were highly biased
> towards the American point of view (understandably so since they were
> produced by Americans), and as a result they depicted Germans as
> universally evil creatures who existed purely to destroy us.  These
> films never showed a German mother rocking and nursing a newborn baby,
> or a German father playing catch with his son, or a young German
> couple holding hands and watching the sun set.  Are we to conclude
> that these things must never have happened, or can we allow for the
> possibility that the authors of the film were being deliberately
> selective about what we did and did not see?

Children's cartoons are not the same as WWII propaganda films, Zob.
Different era, different subject matter, different audience, different
purpose.

> I won't argue against the notion that some humans do indeed think it's
> evil to pick on animals.  However, we also have organized hunting
> rituals in which we shoot and kill animals like deer and moose which
> we have no intention of eating.

In the first place, most deer hunters DO eat their kills. In the
second place, hunters don't torture the animals they're hunting. Their
goal is to dispatch their prey cleanly, quickly, and efficiently. And
in the third place, those animals do not possess anywhere near the
same level of self-awareness as a human being or a Transformer.

 People go fishing as a sport,
> displaying the gutted carcasses of their kills as trophies.  Reputable
> wildlife museums have entire walls devoted to the display of dead
> butterflies, hung with sewing pins unceremoniously piercing their
> bodies.  Animal shelters routinely destroy hundreds of stray cats
> every week.

Again, animals =/= humans. Furthermore, not one of those examples
involves deliberate torture. Those hundreds of stray cats are not
terrorised and beaten to death. Also, the people in charge of
euthanising readily admit they don't enjoy it.

> By contrast, the Decepticon crimes against humanity have been
> comparatively mild.  

Really? So all those occasions where they deliberately caused floods,
earthquakes, and avalanches (MTMTE, Fire on the Mountain, Ultimate
Doom), levelled skyscrapers (City of Steel), desecrated national
monuments (Atlantis, Arise!), and charged head-on at trains(Burden
Hardest to Bear) are "comparatively mild"? Give me a break.

Mind, this is simply the cartoon we're talking about. The comics also
featured Starscream attempting to destroy New York, Tokyo, and Buenos
Aires, Bludgeon ordering his troops to kill as many humans as possible
simply to draw out Optimus Prime, and Jhiaxus annihilating the entire
city of San Francisco for no discernible tactical reason whatsoever.

It's entirely within the realm of possibility
> that the Decepticons could have hunted humans for sport if they'd so
> chosen, hooking them pointed metal implements or pumping their bodies
> full of high-velocity projectiles.  Decepticon behavior towards humans
> on the whole seems more playful than vicious, given that they engaged
> in some admittedly rowdy taunting (the "human baseball" games and
> Rumble deriving some amusement in watching them get zapped) without
> actually killing anyone (that we know of).

By that reasoning, going fishing or hunting deer is crueller and more
unacceptable than playing baseball with a live kitten.

> I don't necessarily think a completely separate moral ethic is
> necessary.  The Decepticons are at war with the Autobots, and the
> humans allied themselves with the Autobots almost immediately after
> their awakening on Earth.  

After the Decepticons attacked and stole their power sources and
nearly killed them, you mean.

That makes the humans enemies of the
> Decepticons during wartime, doesn't it?  If you begin with the premise
> that the Decepticons operate using a similar-or-identical belief
> system to our own, doesn't wartime pretty much justify any acts of
> aggression against your enemy?

No, it most certainly doesn't, which is the whole reason why statutes
like the Geneva convention exist.

> I think what it ultimately comes down to is that what does or does not
> constitute evil depends entirely on your point of view.  Most human
> beings (both real-life ones and the fictional ones within the cartoon
> universe) would agree that the Decepticons are absolutely evil,
> because they willfully commit crimes against humanity.  

I consider them evil because they seek to crush and conquer not merely
humanity, but the entire galaxy.

Surely the
> Decepticons don't consider *themselves* to be evil, though, any more
> than a fisherman is evil for catching fish or a game hunter is evil
> for shooting an elk.

Again, that analogy doesn't hold up at all. Anglers and hunters don't
seek to terrorise, conquer, and enslave the entire wildlife population
any more than they seek to wipe them out completely.

 (To touch on the World War II example once more, there was
> a time when we believed all Germans were evil.  The Germans no doubt
> believed Americans were evil.  Was one party right and the other
> wrong?  

. . . are you honestly questioning whether Germany was wrong to wage a
war that ravaged a continent and killed almost 60,000,000 people?

When it comes down to it, Zob, you can cite as many examples of human
cruelty towards other species as you want, and some of them might
actually have merit (organised dog fighting, for example, is a truly
despicable human practice), but it still doesn't begin to justify or
lessen Decepticon cruelty towards humanity.

Suspsy

"Terror is the stage on which I perform." -Pounce(G1)

[Suspsy]

On Jul 21, 6:38 pm, Chad Rushing <notu...@aol.com> wrote:

> I am pretty sure that he is one of the ATTers who was more active on
> the newsgroup in the past.  They occasionally resurface when some
> quarrel from ATT's dark past comes up again.

He's a longtime troll whose MO is to berate and flame people on the
shoddiest of premises imaginable. Given that Thy was a well-known
friend of Skyf, and was *shattered* by his untimely death, this is a
new low.

Props to Thy for such restraint.

Suspsy

"Seeing is, by itself, not enough for believing." -Searchlight(G1)

[Thylacine 2000]

On Jul 22, 11:08 pm, Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:

> I don't think
> one episode is enough, on its own, to fully evaluate Galvatron's
> relationship with Zarak.

We can evaluate what we have. After brief initial resistance,
humanoid organics were accepted into Decepticon ranks and even allowed
to wear the faction symbol. All that stuff about "puny flesh
creatures are insignificant" went out the window when a better and/or
more pressing opportunity presented itself.

(FWIW, in the past some have responded that people can have pig-valve
heart transplants but that doesn't mean a pig is a human. My response
is that if you merge the living pig with yourself such that you are
equal intellectual and body-controlling partners for the rest of your
life, and if you allow the pig to wear a symbol that is universally
understood as meaning "human," then yes, the pig IS human.)

> if we generally accept the idea that Spike is really a
> normal human being, and that he does all his eating and sleeping and
> using the restroom when we're not looking, then I think we also need
> to accept that there are other things going on with the Decepticons--
> possibly important things--that we as the audience simply don't get to
> watch.

We know what humans do; we know that since humans need to sleep and
that Spike is human, implicitly he must sleep in this fictional world
unless expressly shown otherwise. An entirely different order of
magnitude of assumptions is required for Decepticons, an alien race
that isn't even "alive" in the sense that all modern science would
recognize (because they aren't made of cellular matter).

> The Decepticons are at war with the Autobots, and the
> humans allied themselves with the Autobots almost immediately after
> their awakening on Earth.

Not all humans did, as attest the examples we've mentioned so far and
many others you surely know of already. Hence the complaint that 'Con
philosophy really had no rhyme or reason, no discernible principle at
all, guiding it.

-They claim to be so far above organic life as to be beyond giving it
any ethical consideration.... yet they come to include organics into
their own team.
-Their fans say they treat humans the way humans treat animals, yet
humans have strong proscriptions against inflicting and enjoying undue
pain. It's one of the signs clinical and forensic psychologists use
to profile potential sex offenders and serial killers, who are the
only humans I feel Decepticons can fairly be compared to. You asked
about kids tearing wings off flies: the operative word is "kids," who
probably wouldn't know to wash their hands afterwards before eating
dinner. Meanwhile, there is no story evidence whatsoever that
Decepticons go out of their way to inflict cruel punishments on any
organics that aren't sentient, and they are even more dismissive of
non-sentient machines than they are of sentient organics. Thus, their
society really *does* seem to be centered around a valuation of
sentience--which makes the deliberate infliction of cruelty against
sentients wrong insofar as it is valued it in the first place. If the
Decepticons actually value something else, we never see it and there
is no evidence for it. That, really, is my argument.

> Surely the
> Decepticons don't consider *themselves* to be evil, though

Why not? The viewpoint that there is no absolute evil--that all
beings consider themselves to be just--is every inch a human
invention. This is an alien life form. Maybe they recognize what
evil is and actually like it, as did Satan in "Paradise Lost" or
Hexxus in "Fern Gully." There could have been death camps and mass
graves offscreen in dozens of episodes, where Rumble, Skywarp, and
others could more or less fit right in if they just continued to
behave as we had seen them before.

[Not_Available321]

On Jul 23, 5:39 pm, Suspsy The Pedantic <susp...@yahoo.com> wrote: >
> > On Jul 22, 11:08 pm, Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:

> > The propaganda films produced during World War II were highly biased
> > towards the American point of view (understandably so since they were
> > produced by Americans), and as a result they depicted Germans as
> > universally evil creatures who existed purely to destroy us.  These
> > films never showed a German mother rocking and nursing a newborn baby,
> > or a German father playing catch with his son, or a young German
> > couple holding hands and watching the sun set.  Are we to conclude
> > that these things must never have happened, or can we allow for the
> > possibility that the authors of the film were being deliberately
> > selective about what we did and did not see?
>
> Children's cartoons are not the same as WWII propaganda films, Zob.
> Different era, different subject matter, different audience, different
> purpose.

Wow. Missed the point entirely. No surprise there...

> > I won't argue against the notion that some humans do indeed think it's
> > evil to pick on animals.  However, we also have organized hunting
> > rituals in which we shoot and kill animals like deer and moose which
> > we have no intention of eating.
>
> In the first place, most deer hunters DO eat their kills. In the
> second place, hunters don't torture the animals they're hunting. Their
> goal is to dispatch their prey cleanly, quickly, and efficiently. And
> in the third place, those animals do not possess anywhere near the
> same level of self-awareness as a human being or a Transformer.

Hmmm... animals, IRL, don't possess self-awareness, but a race of
fictional cartoon characters do?! Prove this... since we're going to
conflate examples of reality with "fictional reality" (I just know
there's a talking, thinking race of dolphins somewhere in that wacky
G1 canon!).

> Again, animals =/= humans. Furthermore, not one of those examples
> involves deliberate torture. Those hundreds of stray cats are not
> terrorised and beaten to death. Also, the people in charge of
> euthanising readily admit they don't enjoy it.

Humans=Animals. Somebody slept through Biology 101.

> > By contrast, the Decepticon crimes against humanity have been
> > comparatively mild.  
>
> Really? So all those occasions where they deliberately caused floods,
> earthquakes, and avalanches (MTMTE, Fire on the Mountain, Ultimate
> Doom), levelled skyscrapers (City of Steel), desecrated national
> monuments (Atlantis, Arise!), and charged head-on at trains(Burden
> Hardest to Bear) are "comparatively mild"? Give me a break.

And since we're going to be anally nitpicky, did ANY HUMANS ever die
in any of your examples? In fact, have _any_ humans ever met their
fate through Decepticon vice? No. So what's the big deal? And the
Autobots are just as guilty of destroying property in their war with
the Decepticons too.

> By that reasoning, going fishing or hunting deer is crueller and more
> unacceptable than playing baseball with a live kitten.

I prefer puppies.

> No, it most certainly doesn't, which is the whole reason why statutes
> like the Geneva convention exist.

And are completely ignored and overridden by documents like the
Patriot Act, military tribunals with no fair representation of the
charged, Guantanamo Bay, the entire incredulous U.N., etc... LOL...

> . . . are you honestly questioning whether Germany was wrong to wage a
> war that ravaged a continent and killed almost 60,000,000 people?

60,000,000?!! I hope you have facts to back up that number! LOL...

> When it comes down to it, Zob, you can cite as many examples of human
> cruelty towards other species as you want, and some of them might
> actually have merit (organised dog fighting, for example, is a truly
> despicable human practice), but it still doesn't begin to justify or
> lessen Decepticon cruelty towards humanity.

Speaking of dogs, did you know that China has mandated that all dog be
taken temporarily off restaurant menus so as to not offend the foreign
sensibilities of the Western world during the Beijeng Olympics?
Mmmmm... daaaaawwwwgg.

Trolly McBeam

"Tittybabies unite!" -Optimus Prime (TF: 2 The Movie, coming soon!)

[Not_Available321]

On Jul 23, 3:23 am, SteveD <use...@vo.id.au> wrote:

> Eh, DK didn't do that much for me. It was OK, but I wouldn't get the DVD.

Well, I'll be trading Transformers 2007 for the Dark Knight when it
does come out on DVD. Who am I kidding... Bittorrent all the way!
Ha!

Trolly McBeam

[Suspsy]

On Jul 23, 8:15 pm, Not_Available321 <not_available...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Hmmm... animals, IRL, don't possess self-awareness, but a race of
> fictional cartoon characters do?!  Prove this... since we're going to
> conflate examples of reality with "fictional reality" (I just know
> there's a talking, thinking race of dolphins somewhere in that wacky
> G1 canon!).

If you truly believe that, then you have absolutely no business
discussing Transformers or ANY body of fiction, since to do so
requires one to treat fictional constructs as though they were real.

> And since we're going to be anally nitpicky, did ANY HUMANS ever die
> in any of your examples?  In fact, have _any_ humans ever met their
> fate through Decepticon vice?  

Yes, in the comic book examples I cited which you deliberately
ignored.

> > No, it most certainly doesn't, which is the whole reason why statutes
> > like the Geneva convention exist.
>
> And are completely ignored and overridden by documents like the
> Patriot Act, military tribunals with no fair representation of the
> charged, Guantanamo Bay, the entire incredulous U.N., etc... LOL...

The fact that you consider all of these to be in violation of the
Geneva convention suggests that you agree with me.

> > . . . are you honestly questioning whether Germany was wrong to wage a
> > war that ravaged a continent and killed almost 60,000,000 people?
>
> 60,000,000?!!  I hope you have facts to back up that number!  LOL...

Of course. All one needs to do is type "world war ii total number of
casualties" into Google in order to find casualty estimates. Or visit
their local bookstore or library. Naturally, no one knows the
*precise* number of deaths, which is why I used the qualifier
"almost."

Suspsy

"Warfare is the playground of the ignorant." -Highbrow(G1)

[Zobovor]

On Jul 23, 3:39 pm, Suspsy <susp...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> I think we also need to accept that there are other things going on with

>> the Decepticons that we as the audience simply don't get to watch.

>
> If they truly were important though, then they would have been
> depicted on-screen.

I'm not sure that statement really holds up, though. Let me test it
with some examples. What would you consider some important events in
the G1 cartoon lore? The construction of the factory-planet
Cybertron? The creation of Vector Sigma? Optimus Prime being given
the Matrix of Leadership? If what you say is true, then why weren't
important events like this depicted on-screen? Maybe events can be
important but still not be shown. What do you think about that?

All I'm really getting at here is that what we see in the cartoon
isn't the whole story, and in some cases, evaluating events from the
show based *only* on what we're actually shown can lead to erroneous
conclusions.

>> The propaganda films produced during World War II depicted Germans

>> as universally evil creatures who existed purely to destroy us.

> Children's cartoons are not the same as WWII propaganda films, Zob.

> Different era, different subject matter, different audience, different
> purpose.

You're absolutely right, they're very different in a lot of ways. The
reason I'm drawing a parallel between them, though, is because I need
a real-life example to demonstrate this concept. We *know* that being
a German doesn't automatically make somebody a heartless monster, even
though the propaganda films certainly lead us to that conclusion. We
can step outside the film and look at the real world, which exposes us
to a much broader perspective than the narrow view of the propaganda
films, and allows us to make a more objective analysis.

We can't step outside the framework of a 22-minute cartoon episode and
observe a larger fictional universe that isn't being shown, because
the cartoon universe only exists on celluloid. However, we can
imagine that such a larger universe *does* exist, and we recognize
that there *are* things going on that we don't know about. In this
way, an episode of the cartoon can be likened to a propaganda film
because both depict a very selective telling of events.

> Again, animals =/= humans.

Humans *are* animals, though. We make this distinction between
humanity and every other species on the planet and try really hard to
separate ourselves from the rest of the pack. In a lot of ways, we're
very different (we have a complex verbal language, and we create
highly sophisticated tools and homes and foods, and we have the most
versatile diet of any creature on the food chain) but to mechanical
life forms like the Decepticons, we're probably very similar to all
the other animals on this planet (we're made of organic material and
we're really small and we're primitive). Were it not for the human
alliance with the Autobots, the Decepticons might not necessarily have
had a reason to look at humans as being any more or less special than
other animals with tool- and/or language capability like elephants or
whales or chimpanzees.

In my last post, I cited some examples of things we do to other animal
species. We don't really place a lot of value on the lives of animals
that we kill (except perhaps as a source of food) It's possible the
Decepticons don't think of humans as being nearly as special as we
tend to consider ourselves to be. We're unique in that they can
communicate with us verbally, which they probably can't do with
elephants or whales, but even with that in mind, their constant
references to humans as "foolish insects" and "human germs" certainly
suggests they still consider humans to be entirely beneath them. If
we, as a species, believe it is our right to use lesser species for
whatever purpose suits our pleasure (killing them for food, killing
them for entertainment, killing them because there's just too many of
the darned things), then why wouldn't the Decepticons feel as though
they have the right to use the Earth and its life forms for whatever
purpose suits *their* needs?

> Really? So all those occasions where they deliberately caused floods,
> earthquakes, and avalanches (MTMTE, Fire on the Mountain, Ultimate
> Doom), levelled skyscrapers (City of Steel), desecrated national
> monuments (Atlantis, Arise!), and charged head-on at trains(Burden
> Hardest to Bear) are "comparatively mild"?

Yes, the Decepticons have caused a lot of destruction to both public
and personal property. That's not really the same thing as killing
people for sport, but you're right, it's pretty bad. If property
damage is what you're concerned about, though, the Autobots are guilty
of doing a lot of the same things. We know that Optimus Prime was
responsible for bringing Cybertron into Earth's orbit, which may have
caused more destruction to the planet Earth than all the Decepticon
energy raids put together. If you don't like that example, though,
there are others. The Autobots caused an avalance when they blasted a
hillside, under orders from Prime, to trap the Decepticons in the
rubble in "Microbots." The Autobots opened fire on an entire human
city while fighting the Insecticons in "The Revenge of Bruticus,"
probably destroying a lot more than a single building in the process.
The Autobots have chosen historic landmarks as battlefields numerous
times, including the Macchu Picchu temple in "Fire on the Mountain"
and the Statue of Liberty in "Cosmic Rust" and the Kremlin in "Thief
in the Night," so there's your national monument desecration. Blaster
and Tracks attempted to derail a train in "Auto-Bop" with people still
aboard, which isn't all that different from Astrotrain's behavior.

A lot of people probably look at the stuff the Autobots do and go,
"Well, yeah, but they were doing that because they were trying to stop
the Decepticons." If you can use this justification for the Autobots
to excuse the destruction of Earth property, though, then can't you
make the same excuse for the Decepticons if you wanted to?

> By that reasoning, going fishing or hunting deer is crueller and more
> unacceptable than playing baseball with a live kitten.

Well, let's insert both activities into the events of "Child's Play"
and see what happens.

Scenario #1: The Decepticons show up at a baseball diamond. One of
them casts a line and manages to hook a human with a barbed piece of
metal, reeling him in while yanking him by the lip. Meanwhile, other
Decepticons are hiding in the dugout so their prey can't see them, and
one of them shoots a human in the head with a sniper rifle, killing
him instantly.

Scenario #2: The Decepticons show up at a baseball diamond.
Soundwave picks up a kitten and shouts, "Skywarp, think fast!" and
throws the kitten through the air. Starscream scoops up the kitten
with his wing tips and taunts, "Still in the mood for catnip?!" The
kitten cries in distress. The Autobots arrive and save the kitten.

If you had to choose, which of these would you say paints the
Decepticons as practicing more cruel and unacceptable behavior?
(Scenario #2 is almost exactly what actually happened in "Child's
Play," incidentally, only I substituted a kitten for the human
baseball players.)

>> The humans allied themselves with the Autobots almost immediately

>> after their awakening on Earth.  
>
> After the Decepticons attacked and stole their power sources and
> nearly killed them, you mean.

Honestly, it looks like the Decepticons barely *noticed* the humans
during their first energy raid on Earth. Megatron didn't even react
to their presence until they started throwing wrenches and pipes and
things at him, at which point he pretty much herded them into the
ocean like lemmings. He could have stomped on them one at a time or
blasted them to ashes with his fusion cannon, but he didn't. The
Decepticons didn't take any overtly aggressive action until the
Autobots showed up and attacked them.

>> Most human beings would agree that the Decepticons are absolutely

>> evil, because they willfully commit crimes against humanity.  
>
> I consider them evil because they seek to crush and conquer not merely
> humanity, but the entire galaxy.

That's certainly a very good reason to feel that way, particularly
since you're a human being! The Decepticons themselves probably don't
feel as though they're doing anything wrong, though. They're just
trying to collect energy so they can restore Cybertron. Don't you
suppose the Decepticons feel as though they have the right to expand
their territory? Isn't that a lot like what the early settlers did
when they colonized America? Isn't that kind of like "conquering"
uncharted territory? (Yes, I realize you're from Canada, but I don't
know a lot about Canadian history so I can't readily draw a parallel
more suited to you.)

>Anglers and hunters don't seek to terrorise, conquer, and enslave the
>entire wildlife population any more than they seek to wipe them out
>completely.

I don't want to beat this analogy into the ground, but don't we do
*all* of those things already? Wouldn't hunting a species like the
white rhino into near extinction qualify as seeking to "wipe them out
completely"?

>>Was one party right and the other wrong?  
>
> . . . are you honestly questioning whether Germany was wrong to wage a
> war that ravaged a continent and killed almost 60,000,000 people?

Absolutely not! Do you think that they believed they were committing
any wrong-doing, though, or do you suppose they felt they were
justified in their actions? My point is that even the "bad guys"
don't feel like they're committing evil acts.

> When it comes down to it, Zob, you can cite as many examples of human

> cruelty towards other species as you want, but it still doesn't begin to justify

> or lessen Decepticon cruelty towards humanity.

I agree with you, if only because I'm a member of the human species,
like yourself, and I would have absolutely no desire to be enslaved or
terrorized by Decepticons!

When you think about it, though, it's pretty interesting that we can
do just about whatever we want to any species on the planet (hunt
them, eat them, whatever), but the minute some *other* race comes
along and starts doing the same things to us, suddenly it's horrible
and evil and just plain wrong. It's as if we've been at the top of
the food chain for so long that it's unthinkable that some race of
highly sophisticated robots might look on us as little more than
cattle.

Zob

[Not_Available321]

On Jul 23, 8:39 pm, Suspsy <susp...@yahoo.com> wrote: >
> On Jul 23, 8:15 pm, Not_Available321 <not_available...@yahoo.com>
> wrote: > >
>
> If you truly believe that, then you have absolutely no business
> discussing Transformers or ANY body of fiction, since to do so
> requires one to treat fictional constructs as though they were real.

LOL... Is Gotham City real?

> > And since we're going to be anally nitpicky, did ANY HUMANS ever die
> > in any of your examples?  In fact, have _any_ humans ever met their
> > fate through Decepticon vice?  
>
> Yes, in the comic book examples I cited which you deliberately
> ignored.

It's "deliberate" if I've never even read the comics before?! You
cited cartoon episodes. I thought we were talking about the
cartoon?! Tell me more... I love mindreaders!

> > > No, it most certainly doesn't, which is the whole reason why statutes
> > > like the Geneva convention exist.
>
> > And are completely ignored and overridden by documents like the
> > Patriot Act, military tribunals with no fair representation of the
> > charged, Guantanamo Bay, the entire incredulous U.N., etc... LOL...
>
> The fact that you consider all of these to be in violation of the
> Geneva convention suggests that you agree with me.

Wow. No. Only to disprove your claim that "statutes like the Geneva
Convention exist to protect," but in reality don't and are rendered
obsolete by the examples I used (why do I feel like this is going
nowhere...).

> > 60,000,000?!!  I hope you have facts to back up that number!  LOL...
>
> Of course. All one needs to do is type "world war ii total number of
> casualties" into Google in order to find casualty estimates. Or visit
> their local bookstore or library. Naturally, no one knows the
> *precise* number of deaths, which is why I used the qualifier
> "almost."

Ah yes, Google. I put as much faith in Google as I do Wikipedia for
the "truth." LOL... It's like citing Wikipedia, where anyone can make
up shit, as research for a college paper.

Trolly McBeam

[Gustavo Wombat]

On Jul 23, 5:46 pm, Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Jul 23, 3:39 pm, Suspsy <susp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> I think we also need to accept that there are other things going on with
> >> the Decepticons that we as the audience simply don't get to watch.
>
> > If they truly were important though, then they would have been
> > depicted on-screen.
>
> I'm not sure that statement really holds up, though.  Let me test it
> with some examples.  What would you consider some important events in
> the G1 cartoon lore?  The construction of the factory-planet
> Cybertron?  The creation of Vector Sigma?  Optimus Prime being given
> the Matrix of Leadership?  If what you say is true, then why weren't
> important events like this depicted on-screen?  Maybe events can be
> important but still not be shown.  What do you think about that?
>
> All I'm really getting at here is that what we see in the cartoon
> isn't the whole story, and in some cases, evaluating events from the
> show based *only* on what we're actually shown can lead to erroneous
> conclusions.

And, later fiction taking place in the same universe can come along
and insert elements later. We got this in Transformers movie when the
Matrix was introduced, and then again in BW when sparks were added to
the G1 universe.

The fiction isn't just a partial view of the Universe, it's an in-
progress partial view of the Universe in many cases.

> >> The propaganda films produced during World War II depicted Germans
> >> as universally evil creatures who existed purely to destroy us.
> > Children's cartoons are not the same as WWII propaganda films, Zob.
> > Different era, different subject matter, different audience, different
> > purpose.
>
> You're absolutely right, they're very different in a lot of ways.  The
> reason I'm drawing a parallel between them, though, is because I need
> a real-life example to demonstrate this concept.  We *know* that being
> a German doesn't automatically make somebody a heartless monster,

I think the jury is still out on that. There's certainly a strong
statistical correlation between being a heartless monster and being
German... but correlation is not causation and all that....

> > Again, animals =/= humans.
>
> Humans *are* animals, though.  We make this distinction between
> humanity and every other species on the planet and try really hard to
> separate ourselves from the rest of the pack.  In a lot of ways, we're
> very different (we have a complex verbal language, and we create
> highly sophisticated tools and homes and foods, and we have the most
> versatile diet of any creature on the food chain) but to mechanical
> life forms like the Decepticons, we're probably very similar to all
> the other animals on this planet (we're made of organic material and
> we're really small and we're primitive).  Were it not for the human
> alliance with the Autobots, the Decepticons might not necessarily have
> had a reason to look at humans as being any more or less special than
> other animals with tool- and/or language capability like elephants or
> whales or chimpanzees.

I disagree here -- we're really not shown any animals in the G1
universe that approach a human level of social complexity, tool making
or language. And, to try to map our world onto the fictional world,
while at the same time acknowledging that "we try to separate
ourselves from the rest of the pack" is very problematic. What
interpretation of our world should we be mapping onto this fictional
world -- mankind above the animals blessed with a soul, or mankind as
a bunch of hairless apes?

Where we have seen animals in G1, they showed no signs of intelligence
or sentience at all. Language, tool-making and societal complexity
were the domains of Transformers, humans, Atlanteans, and aliens.

> It's possible the
> Decepticons don't think of humans as being nearly as special as we
> tend to consider ourselves to be.

Aside from the Atlanteans, are there any other Earthy species that
have created technological works that the Decepticons have had reason
to respect and desire? Nightbird leaps to mind, but there were many
others -- one of the standard plots was humans invent something,
Decepticons want to steal it, so Autobots must guard it.

If the Decepticons are unwilling to see a distinction between G1
humans and G1 cows, it's because they are willfully ignoring the
distinction.

> We're unique in that they can
> communicate with us verbally, which they probably can't do with
> elephants or whales, but even with that in mind, their constant
> references to humans as "foolish insects" and "human germs" certainly
> suggests they still consider humans to be entirely beneath them.

It shows contempt and dislike, but it's no worse that what Germans
would have said about the Jews. Or white slave owners about their
black slaves -- it's a willful decision to make a distinction.

>  If
> we, as a species, believe it is our right to use lesser species for
> whatever purpose suits our pleasure (killing them for food, killing
> them for entertainment, killing them because there's just too many of
> the darned things), then why wouldn't the Decepticons feel as though
> they have the right to use the Earth and its life forms for whatever
> purpose suits *their* needs?

I think there's a certain reluctance to go on Chimpanzee hunts,
because we recognize ourselves in them.

Gustavo!

[Grebo]

Sigh. I just know this is gonna get me hate mail, or at least severely
wreck my credibility, but...

I hated (HATED!!) Batman Begins, and have no desire at all the sit
though The Dark Knight.

Grebobstinate

[FortMax]

Zobovor wrote:
> On Jul 23, 3:39 pm, Suspsy <susp...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> Zobovor wrote:
>>> The propaganda films produced during World War II depicted Germans
>>> as universally evil creatures who existed purely to destroy us.
>
>> Children's cartoons are not the same as WWII propaganda films, Zob.
>> Different era, different subject matter, different audience, different
>> purpose.
>
> You're absolutely right, they're very different in a lot of ways. The
> reason I'm drawing a parallel between them, though, is because I need
> a real-life example to demonstrate this concept. We *know* that being
> a German doesn't automatically make somebody a heartless monster, even
> though the propaganda films certainly lead us to that conclusion. We
> can step outside the film and look at the real world, which exposes us
> to a much broader perspective than the narrow view of the propaganda
> films, and allows us to make a more objective analysis.

I call bullshit on comparing the G1 cartoons to WWII propaganda films.
For the comparison to be valid, the cartoons and comics would have to be
propaganda pieces made by Autobots.

--
FortMax's Transformers Instruction Archive
http://fortmax05.10gbfreehost.com/

[Not_Available321]

On Jul 23, 9:30 pm, FortMax <fortressmaximu...@verizon.net> wrote:

> I call bullshit on comparing the G1 cartoons to WWII propaganda films.
> For the comparison to be valid, the cartoons and comics would have to be
> propaganda pieces made by Autobots.

Well, aren't the cartoons 'auto-centric' to begin with, and in some
instances told by an Autobot perspective?

Trolly McBeam

[Suspsy]

On Jul 23, 8:46 pm, Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:

> I'm not sure that statement really holds up, though.  Let me test it
> with some examples.  What would you consider some important events in
> the G1 cartoon lore?  The construction of the factory-planet
> Cybertron?  The creation of Vector Sigma?  Optimus Prime being given
> the Matrix of Leadership? If what you say is true, then why weren't
> important events like this depicted on-screen?  Maybe events can be
> important but still not be shown.

True, but with regards to your argument, I stand by what I wrote. I
reiterate that even if we allow for the possibility that Decepticons
are not always bent on stealing energy and killing Autobots, that
doesn't alter the fact that they engage in both crimes.

> We can't step outside the framework of a 22-minute cartoon episode and
> observe a larger fictional universe that isn't being shown, because
> the cartoon universe only exists on celluloid.  However, we can
> imagine that such a larger universe *does* exist, and we recognize
> that there *are* things going on that we don't know about.  

Yes, but because that larger universe exists solely in the imagination
of the individual fan, it can never held to the same standards as what
has actually been depicted in the official fiction.

> Humans *are* animals, though.  We make this distinction between
> humanity and every other species on the planet and try really hard to
> separate ourselves from the rest of the pack. In a lot of ways, we're
> very different (we have a complex verbal language, and we create
> highly sophisticated tools and homes and foods, and we have the most
> versatile diet of any creature on the food chain)

You're leaving out the most vital component of all, the one that truly
separates us from animals. All those other examples you cited actually
DON'T distinguish us that much. Plenty of animals, from birds to
whales to chimps use complex vocalisations to communicate. Plenty of
animals also use tools and build homes. And if any animal has the most
versatile diet on the planet, it's the cockroach.

The component I speak of is imagination.

but to mechanical
> life forms like the Decepticons, we're probably very similar to all
> the other animals on this planet (we're made of organic material and
> we're really small and we're primitive).  

And yet as Thy has already pointed out, the Decepticons very clearly
view humanity as distinct from the other lifeforms on Earth. They're
not idiots; they know full well that humans are intelligent. Certainly
intelligent enough to develop technology and harvest energy sources
that could be exploited.

The Decepticons know full well we're not insects; they simply think
it's fun to treat us as such.

Were it not for the human
> alliance with the Autobots, the Decepticons might not necessarily have
> had a reason to look at humans as being any more or less special than
> other animals with tool- and/or language capability like elephants or
> whales or chimpanzees.

See above.

It's possible the
> Decepticons don't think of humans as being nearly as special as we
> tend to consider ourselves to be.

They clearly don't, but that is not the issue here.

 We're unique in that they can
> communicate with us verbally, which they probably can't do with
> elephants or whales, but even with that in mind, their constant
> references to humans as "foolish insects" and "human germs" certainly
> suggests they still consider humans to be entirely beneath them.

And plenty of white people still consider blacks to be no better than
apes, but that's hardly a justification for such thinking, is it?
Besides, I always interpreted the Decepticons' labelling to be
deliberate insults as opposed to genuine perceptions.

 If
> we, as a species, believe it is our right to use lesser species for
> whatever purpose suits our pleasure (killing them for food, killing
> them for entertainment, killing them because there's just too many of
> the darned things), then why wouldn't the Decepticons feel as though
> they have the right to use the Earth and its life forms for whatever
> purpose suits *their* needs?

They obviously DO feel that way, but that doesn't make it right. You
cannot justify one crime by drawing attention to another, perceived
one. You cannot justify robbing or murdering another person because
that person has a stuffed bear mounted in his living room. This
argument was futile when Skyflight and Raksha were advocating it, and
it's no different this time.

> Yes, the Decepticons have caused a lot of destruction to both public
> and personal property.  That's not really the same thing as killing
> people for sport, but you're right, it's pretty bad.

I attribute the fact that no humans were ever shown dying in the
cartoon was because the censors would never allow it. And what about
the examples from the comics that I cited? If we're going to debate
Decepticon morality, we must consider all major sources of canon.

 If property
> damage is what you're concerned about, though

It's not. But since you bring it up, yes, the Autobots have
inadvertantly damaged property, but only because the Decepticons
brought the fight to those locations. Similarly, Superman
inadvertantly destroyed half of Metropolis during his fateful battle
with Doomsday, but no one can possibly question that his intent was to
STOP the carnage.

> A lot of people probably look at the stuff the Autobots do and go,
> "Well, yeah, but they were doing that because they were trying to stop
> the Decepticons."  If you can use this justification for the Autobots
> to excuse the destruction of Earth property, though, then can't you
> make the same excuse for the Decepticons if you wanted to?

No, because the Autobots aren't warmongering villains bent on killing
and conquest.

> Scenario #1:  The Decepticons show up at a baseball diamond.  One of
> them casts a line and manages to hook a human with a barbed piece of
> metal, reeling him in while yanking him by the lip.  Meanwhile, other
> Decepticons are hiding in the dugout so their prey can't see them, and
> one of them shoots a human in the head with a sniper rifle, killing
> him instantly.

> Scenario #2:  The Decepticons show up at a baseball diamond.
> Soundwave picks up a kitten and shouts, "Skywarp, think fast!" and
> throws the kitten through the air.  Starscream scoops up the kitten
> with his wing tips and taunts, "Still in the mood for catnip?!"  The
> kitten cries in distress.  The Autobots arrive and save the kitten.
>
> If you had to choose, which of these would you say paints the
> Decepticons as practicing more cruel and unacceptable behavior?

If you're going to replace a human being with a kitten in #2, then you
must also replace the humans in #1 with a fish and a deer in order for
your argument to work.

> Honestly, it looks like the Decepticons barely *noticed* the humans
> during their first energy raid on Earth.  Megatron didn't even react
> to their presence until they started throwing wrenches and pipes and
> things at him, at which point he pretty much herded them into the
> ocean like lemmings.  He could have stomped on them one at a time or
> blasted them to ashes with his fusion cannon, but he didn't.  The
> Decepticons didn't take any overtly aggressive action until the
> Autobots showed up and attacked them.

So because one group of humans tried to stop him from stealing THEIR
property, that somehow gave him carte blanche to view all humans as
enemies, and treat them as such? Sounds alot like the justification Al
Qaeda made for killing all those civilians on 9/11.

> That's certainly a very good reason to feel that way, particularly
> since you're a human being!  The Decepticons themselves probably don't
> feel as though they're doing anything wrong, though. They're just
> trying to collect energy so they can restore Cybertron.

And wipe out the Autobots and any other party that opposes them.

 Don't you
> suppose the Decepticons feel as though they have the right to expand
> their territory?  

And that somehow makes genocide permissible?

Isn't that a lot like what the early settlers did
> when they colonized America?  Isn't that kind of like "conquering"
> uncharted territory?

Yes, and alot of their actions towards Native Americans---stealing
their lands, forcing them onto reserves, outright attempting to
exterminate them---were decidedly criminal in nature.

> I don't want to beat this analogy into the ground, but don't we do
> *all* of those things already?  Wouldn't hunting a species like the
> white rhino into near extinction qualify as seeking to "wipe them out
> completely"?

The poachers responsible for hunting rhinos to the brink of extinction
are not the same as hunters who kill deer and other game in accordance
with the law.

> Absolutely not!  Do you think that they believed they were committing
> any wrong-doing, though, or do you suppose they felt they were
> justified in their actions?  My point is that even the "bad guys"
> don't feel like they're committing evil acts.

But that doesn't mean that their acts they commit aren't evil. Not in
the slightest.

> When you think about it, though, it's pretty interesting that we can
> do just about whatever we want to any species on the planet (hunt
> them, eat them, whatever), but the minute some *other* race comes
> along and starts doing the same things to us, suddenly it's horrible
> and evil and just plain wrong.

That's because it is. And for the record, I consider many of
humanity's actions against animals criminal. That doesn't mean I have
no grounds to object when an alien race attempts to take over.

 It's as if we've been at the top of
> the food chain for so long that it's unthinkable that some race of
> highly sophisticated robots might look on us as little more than
> cattle.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the cattle analogy simply
doesn't hold water.

Suspsy

"War's a dirty game---and I'm a dirty player." -Blades(G1)

[Zobovor]

On Jul 23, 5:23 pm, Thylacine 2000 <thytwot...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>After brief initial resistance, humanoid organics were accepted into Decepticon
>ranks and even allowed to wear the faction symbol. All that stuff about "puny
>flesh creatures are insignificant" went out the window when a better and/or
> more pressing opportunity presented itself.

You know, it occurs to me that the Decepticons have also put their
faction symbol on things like the doors to their headquarters and
their ships and their thrones. This suggests they slap a Decepticon
insignia on anything that belongs to them. Perhaps the fact that the
Decepticon symbol is also present on the exo-suits of the Headmasters
and Targetmasters merely indicates that the Decepticons *own* them?

That said, I really wish there had been more of a fourth season to
analyze, but I don't think the Decepticons completely abandoned their
feelings about organic creatures the way you make it sound. Scourge
was unwilling to discuss terms with Zarak in the first place ("we
don't make deals with organic creatures!") until Zarak threatened
bodily harm on the other Decepticons. Scourge and Fracas squabbled
constantly, and Scourge only acquiesced to Fracas' demands after
Fracas pointed himself at Scourge in gun mode. Like I said before,
the only reason Galvatron listened to Zarak was because he had the
might of Scorponok at his disposal. It seems like the only reason the
Decepticons cooperated with Zarak was because he had the power to hurt
them, not because they respected him or wanted to invite him into the
Decepticon ranks.

You also suggested in your pig analogy that the Decepticons became

"equal intellectual and body-controlling partners for the rest of

their lives." Assuming the Decepticon Headmaster technology is
closely similar or identical to Autobot Headmaster technology, I don't
think that necessarily holds up. During the fight with the Hive
machines, Arcana asked Brainstorm for permission to guide his actions
before Arcana could take control of Brainstorm's body. This suggests
to me that the Hive could never exert control over the shared bodies
without the Decepticons allowing it. (I guess they could detach from
the bodies and force the Decepticons into their animal modes, if they
so chose.) Also, I don't necessarily think the Decepticons were
forced to co-exist with the Hive for the rest of their existence. I
can't think of any ill effects suffered by the Decepticons if they
were to, say, fly into deep space and force their co-pilots to
suffocate. They'd have to clean out the leftovers, and I guess there
would be some extra room inside their heads and guns, but that's about
it. The biggest strategic problem with killing the Hive is that
they'd lose the use of Scorponok, who would be useless without Zarak
controlling it. Worst-case scenario, they'd have to wait a few
decades for the Hive to die of old age, which is practically the blink
of an eye for robots who live for millions of years.

> We know what humans do; we know that since humans need to sleep and
> that Spike is human, implicitly he must sleep in this fictional world
> unless expressly shown otherwise. An entirely different order of
> magnitude of assumptions is required for Decepticons, an alien race
> that isn't even "alive" in the sense that all modern science would
> recognize (because they aren't made of cellular matter).

I wasn't necessarily trying to draw a parallel with Decepticon
physiology (I have no idea if they need to sleep or use the bathroom),
but pointing out that there must be events taking place in the
fictional universe that we never actually get to see. Relying only on
the content of the episodes affords us only part of the picture,
leading to conclusions that Spike must never pee or that the
Decepticons must never do anything except steal energy and attack the
Autobots.

> -Their fans say they treat humans the way humans treat animals, yet
> humans have strong proscriptions against inflicting and enjoying undue
> pain. It's one of the signs clinical and forensic psychologists use
> to profile potential sex offenders and serial killers, who are the
> only humans I feel Decepticons can fairly be compared to.

It's difficult for me to imagine an organized army of sex offenders,
though, or a big group of serial killers with a leader and
subordinates. A human military army seems like a more fitting
comparison to the Decepticon forces, really. Clearly, the act of
causing another person pain can be either justified or unjustified,
depending on the circumstances. If you're walking down the street and
you start gunning down pedestrians as they approach, that's inflicting
undue pain. If you're a soldier during wartime and have crossed enemy
lines, doing the same thing to enemy forces is justifiable in these
circumstances. Which ones more accurately describes the activities of
the Decepticons? Do they go around randomly attacking other life
forms just for the sake of inflicting undue pain, or do they focus
most of their military efforts on their primary enemy, the Autobots
(and, to a lesser extent, allies of the Autobots)?

> This is an alien life form. Maybe they recognize what
> evil is and actually like it, as did Satan in "Paradise Lost" or
> Hexxus in "Fern Gully."

Okay, that's a good counterpoint. I never really got the impression
that the Decepticons were just being bad guys for the sake of being
bad guys, though. That's one of the things that I think makes them so
interesting. Their goals seem to be the acquisition of energy to
revitalize Cybertron, the expansion of their territory, and the
destruction of their enemies (not necessarily in this order, depending
on what kind of mood Megatron's in that day). It's difficult for me
to imagine that they feel like restoring their home planet is a *bad*
thing, or that they're commiting an act of wrong when they try to
defeat the Autobots (and feel guilty about it afterwards). My feeling
is that they probably feel oppressed by the Autobots, who are trying
to stop them from getting what should rightfully be theirs.

> Meanwhile, there is no story evidence whatsoever that
> Decepticons go out of their way to inflict cruel punishments on any
> organics that aren't sentient, and they are even more dismissive of
> non-sentient machines than they are of sentient organics. Thus, their
> society really *does* seem to be centered around a valuation of
> sentience--which makes the deliberate infliction of cruelty against
> sentients wrong insofar as it is valued it in the first place.

I'm going to think about this for a little while before I get back to
you.

Zob

[Gustavo Wombat]

On Jul 23, 6:45 pm, Not_Available321 <not_available...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Some of the episodes were told by PowerMaster Optimus Prime to a small
boy. You really aren't going to get a more biased narrator than the
leader of one faction.

[Gustavo Wombat]

On Jul 23, 7:08 pm, Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:

> It's difficult for me to imagine an organized army of sex offenders,
> though, or a big group of serial killers with a leader and
> subordinates.

Manson family. Basically about as big as the Decepticon army we saw in
Season 1 and 2.

Or, if you want larger, the Nazis (and I'll grant you that much of the
rank and file were just fighting the good fight for their fatherland,
but the one's running the death camps were just plain evil).

Gustavo

[Thunder Magnificent!]

Onslaught Six wrote:

> I so agree. I 'love' what they did with Two-Face, and Ledger's Joker
> was awesome.

Best movie this year (so far, anyway).

t.k.

[Kil - Michael McCarthy]

"Zobovor" <zm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:0556452f-cf3a-4f5a...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

>
> By contrast, the Decepticon crimes against humanity have been
> comparatively mild.

Decepticon crimes against humanity include attempted planetary destruction,
or destruction of the sun, or the ramming of said planet into said sun, all
of which would have resulted in the annihilation of the entire human
species.

-Kil

[Chad Rushing]

On Jul 24, 11:06 am, "Kil - Michael McCarthy" <michaelmc...@aol.com>
wrote:

>
> > By contrast, the Decepticon crimes against humanity have been
> > comparatively mild.
>
> Decepticon crimes against humanity include attempted planetary
> destruction, or destruction of the sun, or the ramming of said planet
> into said sun, all of which would have resulted in the annihilation of
> the entire human species.

Yeah, you have to admit that it would be pretty hard to top that.

- Chad

[Onslaught Six]

On Jul 23, 9:23 pm, Grebo <grebog...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sigh. I just know this is gonna get me hate mail, or at least severely
> wreck my credibility, but...
>
> I hated (HATED!!) Batman Begins, and have no desire at all the sit
> though The Dark Knight.

How come?

I'm legit curious, is all. Some of the problems with Begins are gone
in the sequel, so.

[Not_Available321]

On Jul 23, 10:00 pm, Suspsy <susp...@yahoo.com> wrote: >
> On Jul 23, 8:46 pm, Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote: > >
>
> True, but with regards to your argument, I stand by what I wrote. I
> reiterate that even if we allow for the possibility that Decepticons
> are not always bent on stealing energy and killing Autobots, that
> doesn't alter the fact that they engage in both crimes.

That's funny. Since when is it a "crime" to kill your enemy during
wartime, no matter which side you're on? I supppose you're going to
tell that 18-year old out in the trenches defending his homeland
(U.S.) that he can't take a swig of that Jack because he's underage?!
"You can die for your country, lad, but you ain't gettin any of my
stash till yur 21, that's the law!" <------ That scenario would be a
goddamn crime!

> > Yes, the Decepticons have caused a lot of destruction to both public
> > and personal property.  That's not really the same thing as killing
> > people for sport, but you're right, it's pretty bad.
>
> I attribute the fact that no humans were ever shown dying in the
> cartoon was because the censors would never allow it. And what about
> the examples from the comics that I cited? If we're going to debate
> Decepticon morality, we must consider all major sources of canon.

And yet no humans have ever been killed in the cartoons. There you go
again allowing 'real life' ramifications to justify the events of a
fictional reality. You can't have it both ways. You either interpret
what happens on the screen within the confines of what we see on the
flatscreen or you justify all your points based on writer's intent,
the censors, cartoon network, animation flaws, the Dalai Lama, Coke
vs. Pepsi, Teletubbies, etc., etc...

Fact: NO humans were ever killed by Decepticon vice. If so, prove
it. And the comics don't count, we're talking about cartoon
continuity here. Comics are not the same as cartoons when it comes to
continuity.

> So because one group of humans tried to stop him from stealing THEIR
> property, that somehow gave him carte blanche to view all humans as
> enemies, and treat them as such? Sounds alot like the justification Al
> Qaeda made for killing all those civilians on 9/11.

No. It sounds a lot like the U.S. spinning lies and propagating a war
to "steal" oil from a sovereign country that had nothing to do with
the events of 9/11.

> > Isn't that a lot like what the early settlers did
> >
> > when they colonized America?  Isn't that kind of like "conquering"
> > uncharted territory?
>
> Yes, and alot of their actions towards Native Americans---stealing
> their lands, forcing them onto reserves, outright attempting to
> exterminate them---were decidedly criminal in nature.

So that would make the 'white man' evil by your logic, RIGHT?!

And before you respond:

"If you truly believe that, then you have absolutely no business
discussing Transformers or ANY body of fiction, since to do so

requires one to treat fictional constructs as though they were real." -
Suspy

Since we're drawing correlations between the actions of Decepticon
colonization and real life, how are the Decepticons any different than
Columbus and his tribe?

> That's because it is. And for the record, I consider many of
> humanity's actions against animals criminal. That doesn't mean I have
> no grounds to object when an alien race attempts to take over.

Then how do you feel about the death of unborn chicks committed by
Animated Prowl? By your logic, that would make him a criminal in your
eyes and evil. And he is. And before you respond, let's quote
another one of your brilliant platitudes:

"It's also an accident when a kid shoots his friend with his dad's
gun
by mistake, but that doesn't change the fact that it happened. Nor
does it undo the damage." -Suspy

Evil is as evil does.

And since when are a race of alien robots _bound_ by man-made, Earth
laws? What may be considered a 'crime' by the denizens of planet
Earth may be considered a 'rite of passage' on say, planet Carbombia.

Trolly McBeam

[Thylacine 2000]

Also:
-Using Cybertron's gravity to drown Earth under tsunamis, then tear it
apart.
-Converting all matter on Earth to metal, destroying all life.
-Freezing Earth with a planetary temperature drop of ~40 degrees (the
difference between modern times and the last ice age was ~8 degrees).

[Gustavo Wombat]

Didn't the Autobots actually destroy the planet Paradron? Granted,
they made a token effort to get some of the inhabitants off the
planet, but do you honestly believe they got everyone off in three
minutes?

(The Decepticons destroyed Web World, but that episode was an allegory
about overcomplicated medical insurance, and the need to just destroy
the whole system and start from scratch)

Gustavo!

[Gustavo Wombat]

Not Grebo, but I hated Batman Begins for the really idiotic microwave
transmitter that vaporized water, which was at the heart of the plot.
I cannot suspend my disbelief that much -- if the thing worked as
described, the citizens of Gotham would be popping like microwaved
popcorn as the water in them boiled.

Why, why, oh why? Is it too hard to get someone with a passing
understanding of the technologies involved to take a quick look at the
script?

Gustavo!

[Chad Rushing]

I must be absolutely crazy to enter this debate ...

On Jul 24, 12:19 pm, Not_Available321 <not_available...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
> That's funny. Since when is it a "crime" to kill your enemy during
> wartime, no matter which side you're on?

If your enemy has surrendered and laid down his arms and/or is
currently in custody, then I believe it is considered a war crime to
kill (or torture) an enemy combatant in those situations. Whether or
not that is relevant to the events of the G1 show, I really do not
know.

> Fact: NO humans were ever killed by Decepticon vice. If so, prove
> it. And the comics don't count, we're talking about cartoon
> continuity here. Comics are not the same as cartoons when it comes to
> continuity.

The Decepticons may not have murdered any humans on the show, but one
could arguably accuse them of assault, -attempted- murder, conspiracy
to murder, or reckless endangerment as their actions seemed to fall
into those categories in various situations (ex. moving Cybertron
close to Earth). I am just saying ...

> And since when are a race of alien robots _bound_ by man-made, Earth
> laws? What may be considered a 'crime' by the denizens of planet
> Earth may be considered a 'rite of passage' on say, planet Carbombia.

I think there is a huge difference between something being a "crime"
and something being "evil" (which I think was the original point of
disagreement). There are a lot of "evil" actions that are not
"criminal" under the law, and there are "crimes" under the law that
are not particularly "evil" actions.

The law (legal vs. criminal) and morality (good, neutral, and evil)
should probably be dealt with as separate issues.

- Chad

[Cappeca]

On Jul 22, 11:06 am, Onslaught Six <Onslaught...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 21, 6:38 pm, Chad Rushing <notu...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > I am pretty sure that he is one of the ATTers who was more active on
> > the newsgroup in the past. They occasionally resurface when some
> > quarrel from ATT's dark past comes up again.
>

> Actually, that was intended as an insult to him. Dude pops out of
> nowhere to insult someone who clearly hangs around more, spouts off
> some stuff, foams at the mouth, and then doesn't show up again for a
> while.

I've got more to do, thanks for the interest. And yeah, it's all about
a dark past that you seem unaware off.

[Gustavo Wombat]

On Jul 24, 10:19 am, Not_Available321 <not_available...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> On Jul 23, 10:00 pm, Suspsy <susp...@yahoo.com> wrote: >
> > On Jul 23, 8:46 pm, Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote: > >
> > > Yes, the Decepticons have caused a lot of destruction to both public
> > > and personal property.  That's not really the same thing as killing
> > > people for sport, but you're right, it's pretty bad.
>
> > I attribute the fact that no humans were ever shown dying in the
> > cartoon was because the censors would never allow it. And what about
> > the examples from the comics that I cited? If we're going to debate
> > Decepticon morality, we must consider all major sources of canon.
>
> And yet no humans have ever been killed in the cartoons.  There you go
> again allowing 'real life' ramifications to justify the events of a
> fictional reality.  You can't have it both ways.  You either interpret
> what happens on the screen within the confines of what we see on the
> flatscreen or you justify all your points based on writer's intent,
> the censors, cartoon network, animation flaws, the Dalai Lama, Coke
> vs. Pepsi, Teletubbies, etc., etc...
>
> Fact: NO humans were ever killed by Decepticon vice.  If so, prove
> it.  And the comics don't count, we're talking about cartoon
> continuity here.  Comics are not the same as cartoons when it comes to
> continuity.

The difference between attempted murder and murder is one of
competence, not intent. Attempted murderers are just as evil, they're
simply not good at it.

> > > Isn't that a lot like what the early settlers did
> > > when they colonized America?  Isn't that kind of like "conquering"
> > > uncharted territory?
>
> > Yes, and alot of their actions towards Native Americans---stealing
> > their lands, forcing them onto reserves, outright attempting to
> > exterminate them---were decidedly criminal in nature.
>
> So that would make the 'white man' evil by your logic, RIGHT?!
>
> And before you respond:

Well, since I'm not him, I'll respond before reading further -- RIGHT.

The actions of the early settlers was evil. Andrew Jackson, who wanted
to exterminate the native americans, was evil. The slave holders were
evil. The fact that the white american power system is propped up on
the blood of others means that we white folks are all complicit in
this evil.

If you reject the evil acts of your forbearers, than you must reject
the advantages that those evil acts have given you.

While it is true that you cannot be held accountable for the acts of
your ancestors, you can and should be held accountable for your own
acts, such as living off blood money.

How's that? Is that the response you were going for?

> "If you truly believe that, then you have absolutely no business
> discussing Transformers or ANY body of fiction, since to do so
> requires one to treat fictional constructs as though they were real." -
> Suspy
>
> Since we're drawing correlations between the actions of Decepticon
> colonization and real life, how are the Decepticons any different than
> Columbus and his tribe?

Well, Columbus was charged with bringing back pepper, went to the
wrong place, looked around, found something spicy and decided to
declare his expedition a success by naming these spicy things
"peppers" and returning home with them.

Columbus did not commit genocide. That was the people who came right
after him. And, yes, genocide is evil, whether committed by humans of
giant robots. The question isn't whether the humans are evil, but
rather whether the Decepticons are evil, so all questions of
humanity's evil are irrelevant.

If the Decepticons had examined mankind, looked at the evil they
caused, and realized that for the greater good of the universe,
humanity must be hobbled so it cannot escape and spread, that would be
a more interesting moral issue. But that's not at all what happened.

> > That's because it is. And for the record, I consider many of
> > humanity's actions against animals criminal. That doesn't mean I have
> > no grounds to object when an alien race attempts to take over.
>
> Then how do you feel about the death of unborn chicks committed by
> Animated Prowl?  By your logic, that would make him a criminal in your
> eyes and evil.  And he is.  And before you respond, let's quote
> another one of your brilliant platitudes:
>
> "It's also an accident when a kid shoots his friend with his dad's
> gun
> by mistake, but that doesn't change the fact that it happened. Nor
> does it undo the damage." -Suspy
>
> Evil is as evil does.

Nonsense. Evil is a matter of intent.

Gustavo!

[Cappeca]

On Jul 21, 1:40 pm, Thylacine 2000 <thytwot...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 21, 3:32 am,Cappeca<capp...@godisdead.com> wrote:
>
> > On 21 jul, 00:32, Thylacine 2000 <thytwot...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > Skyflight's name has come up in this thread already. He was never
> > > really able to put together a coherent positive explanation of what
> > > Decepticons actually stood for that was based on in-media real
> > > evidence. Nor could he show that his claims were any more factually,
> > > canonically supported than the mainstream claims that Decepticons were
> > > evil, destructive, and cruel, often for just about no reason at
> > > all.
>
> > And you finally get to have the last word over him, don't you? He had
> > to die, of course, but YOU WIN! Why don't you do like Zob and learn
> > something with him instead, or do like Suspsy and just leave?
>
> I think any mentally-healthy reader of this thread, their vision not
> obscured by gigantic chips on their shoulder, understood what I was
> actually saying.
>
> I was friends with Skyf, and have been open about that here throughout
> the years. And it is fair to expect you to know that, given your
> history of thread-stalking me to flame me for whatever shallow,
> frivolous reasons you make up to justify your behavior to yourself.

BIG friend, I see. Those were very nice words you had about him, of
course. I don't care about your idea of me, because right now I can
come here and say Fuck You Thylacine, but the fact that you said a lot
of shit that is not true about someone I've known and is not able to
defend himself really pisses me off. Always so self righteous, always
with the last word, even if it is to call "others" thread-stalking.
Get a grip!

> Obviously you can devote a great deal of energy towards clinging to
> never-ending grudges and personal hatreds. What a shame, then, that
> you can't devote any of that tenacious energy to actually being right
> or knowing anything.

Dude, you were the one making arguments with long gone people. And
you're also not right about A LOT of things, starting with how you
think people perceive you.

[Chad Rushing]

On Jul 24, 12:42 pm, Gustavo Wombat <GustavoWom...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Didn't the Autobots actually destroy the planet Paradron? Granted,
> they made a token effort to get some of the inhabitants off the
> planet, but do you honestly believe they got everyone off in three
> minutes?

The inhabitants of Paradon were able to evacuate the planet extremely
quickly due to their frequent safety drills.

> (The Decepticons destroyed Web World, but that episode was an allegory
> about overcomplicated medical insurance, and the need to just destroy
> the whole system and start from scratch)

LOL, I will have to go back and watch it again with that in mind.

- Chad

[Cappeca]

On Jul 23, 6:47 pm, Suspsy <susp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 21, 6:38 pm, Chad Rushing <notu...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > I am pretty sure that he is one of the ATTers who was more active on
> > the newsgroup in the past. They occasionally resurface when some
> > quarrel from ATT's dark past comes up again.
>

> He's a longtime troll whose MO is to berate and flame people on the
> shoddiest of premises imaginable.

Oh the IRONY!

[Suspsy]

On Jul 24, 1:19 pm, Not_Available321 <not_available...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> That's funny.  Since when is it a "crime" to kill your enemy during

> wartime, no matter which side you're on?

If the enemy has already surrendered? Or if the people you kill happen
to be civilians instead of combatants? Really, for someone so keen on
accusing me of not paying attention in school, you do have a painfully
narrow view of things.

There you go
> again allowing 'real life' ramifications to justify the events of a
> fictional reality.  

Of course, because it's perfectly permissible to do so.

You can't have it both ways. You either interpret
> what happens on the screen within the confines of what we see on the
> flatscreen or you justify all your points based on writer's intent,
> the censors, cartoon network, animation flaws, the Dalai Lama, Coke
> vs. Pepsi, Teletubbies, etc., etc...

Hyperbole will get you nowhere.

> Fact: NO humans were ever killed by Decepticon vice.  If so, prove
> it.  And the comics don't count, we're talking about cartoon
> continuity here.  Comics are not the same as cartoons when it comes to
> continuity.

The comics do indeed matter when taking into account Decepticon or
Autobot morality, and it's not my problem if your knowledge in that
realm is sorely lacking.

> No.  It sounds a lot like the U.S. spinning lies and propagating a war
> to "steal" oil from a sovereign country that had nothing to do with
> the events of 9/11.

Yes, yes, you're against the Iraq War, we all know that. Now how about
attempting to refute my argument properly?

> And before you respond:
>
> "If you truly believe that, then you have absolutely no business
> discussing Transformers or ANY body of fiction, since to do so
> requires one to treat fictional constructs as though they were real." -

Since nothing I've said contradicts this statement, this is yet
another strawman on your part.

> Since we're drawing correlations between the actions of Decepticon
> colonization and real life, how are the Decepticons any different than
> Columbus and his tribe?

Apparently you missed the part where I contended that the Decepticons
and many of the early European settlers were comparable in nature.

> Then how do you feel about the death of unborn chicks committed by
> Animated Prowl?  By your logic, that would make him a criminal in your
> eyes and evil.

It doesn't, and the fact that you continue to ignore the big picture
and attempt to condemn Prowl solely on that one small act of
carelessness is quite, quite pitiful.

> "It's also an accident when a kid shoots his friend with his dad's
> gun
> by mistake, but that doesn't change the fact that it happened. Nor
> does it undo the damage." -Suspy

Breaking bird's eggs is not the same as killing a human being.

> And since when are a race of alien robots _bound_ by man-made, Earth
> laws?  

It makes absolutely no difference one way or the other.

Suspsy, are we about done here, "Trolly"?

"Struggle as much as you like. I enjoy it." -Rampage(BW)

[Kil - Michael McCarthy]

"Gustavo Wombat" <Gustav...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bc9c194b-00d5-4e2d...@z16g2000prn.googlegroups.com...

> Not Grebo, but I hated Batman Begins for the really idiotic microwave
> transmitter that vaporized water, which was at the heart of the plot.
> I cannot suspend my disbelief that much -- if the thing worked as
> described, the citizens of Gotham would be popping like microwaved
> popcorn as the water in them boiled.
>
> Why, why, oh why? Is it too hard to get someone with a passing
> understanding of the technologies involved to take a quick look at the
> script?

I loved Batman Begins, and have no problem with the microwave weapon working
as it did. It was pure comic book science in a comic book movie.

I do always chuckle a bit whenever see anyone talking about that movie's
supposed "realism."

-Kil
ObTFs: The Tumbler Batmobile would make a great alt mode for Cyb.
Crumplezone.

[Suspsy]

On Jul 24, 1:56 pm, Cappeca <capp...@godisdead.com> wrote:

> > Actually, that was intended as an insult to him. Dude pops out of
> > nowhere to insult someone who clearly hangs around more, spouts off
> > some stuff, foams at the mouth, and then doesn't show up again for a
> > while.
>
> I've got more to do, thanks for the interest. And yeah, it's all about
> a dark past that you seem unaware off.

Heh. I never tire of seeing people trot out the tired old "HURF BURF I
HAVE A LIFE OUTSIDE OF TFORMERS" argument, as if that somehow
validates lousy behaviour.

Suspsy

"If it doesn't get you dirty, it's not worth doing." -Snapdragon(G1)

[Kil - Michael McCarthy]

"Gustavo Wombat" <Gustav...@yahoo.com> wrote....

> Where we have seen animals in G1, they showed no signs of intelligence
> or sentience at all. Language, tool-making and societal complexity
> were the domains of Transformers, humans, Atlanteans, and aliens.

ObNitpickery: Sub-Atlanticans, not Atlanteans. The title "Atlantis, Arise"
is a misnomer.

-Kil

[Not_Available321]

On Jul 24, 2:01 pm, Gustavo Wombat <GustavoWom...@yahoo.com> wrote: >
> On Jul 24, 10:19 am, Not_Available321 <not_available...@yahoo.com>
> wrote: > >
>
> The difference between attempted murder and murder is one of
> competence,  not intent. Attempted murderers are just as evil, they're
> simply not good at it.
>

> > So that would make the 'white man' evil by your logic, RIGHT?!
>
> > And before you respond:
>
> Well, since I'm not him, I'll respond before reading further -- RIGHT.
>
> The actions of the early settlers was evil. Andrew Jackson, who wanted
> to exterminate the native americans, was evil. The slave holders were
> evil. The fact that the white american power system is propped up on
> the blood of others means that we white folks are all complicit in
> this evil.
>
> If you reject the evil acts of your forbearers, than you must reject
> the advantages that those evil acts have given you.
>
> While it is true that you cannot be held accountable for the acts of
> your ancestors, you can and should be held accountable for your own
> acts, such as living off blood money.
>
> How's that? Is that the response you were going for?

Yes, yes..! But I was testing Suspy and his kah-nowledge...

> Well, Columbus was charged with bringing back pepper, went to the
> wrong place, looked around, found something spicy and decided to
> declare his expedition a success by naming these spicy things
> "peppers" and returning home with them.
>
> Columbus did not commit genocide. That was the people who came right
> after him. And, yes, genocide is evil, whether committed by humans of
> giant robots. The question isn't whether the humans are evil, but
> rather whether the Decepticons are evil, so all questions of
> humanity's evil are irrelevant.

Yes, yes... but I'm obviously being facetious and half-serious in all
my replies here. If only to fuck with another troll called Suspy. I
figger that's pretty obvious, by now. My name is "Trolly" after
all... lol.

> > Evil is as evil does.
>
> Nonsense. Evil is a matter of intent.

Not according to Suspy.

Trolly McBeam

[Not_Available321]

On Jul 24, 2:17 pm, Suspsy <susp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 24, 1:19 pm, Not_Available321 <not_available...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > That's funny.  Since when is it a "crime" to kill your enemy during
> > wartime, no matter which side you're on?
>
> If the enemy has already surrendered? Or if the people you kill happen
> to be civilians instead of combatants? Really, for someone so keen on
> accusing me of not paying attention in school, you do have a painfully
> narrow view of things.

LOL... I'm talking about combatants in the heat of war obviously.

> The comics do indeed matter when taking into account Decepticon or
> Autobot morality, and it's not my problem if your knowledge in that
> realm is sorely lacking.

Oh wise cognoscente of TF Lore, please excuse my ignorance!

> Yes, yes, you're against the Iraq War, we all know that. Now how about
> attempting to refute my argument properly?

Is this where the pot calls the kettle black?! I'll refute your
arguments properly when you refute mine properly!

> > Then how do you feel about the death of unborn chicks committed by
> > Animated Prowl?  By your logic, that would make him a criminal in your
> > eyes and evil.
>
> It doesn't, and the fact that you continue to ignore the big picture
> and attempt to condemn Prowl solely on that one small act of
> carelessness is quite, quite pitiful.

A life is a life whether it's an unborn fetus or an egg. I see no
difference, as most pro-lifers would agree.

> Breaking bird's eggs is not the same as killing a human being.

It's still taking a life. That's evil.

> > And since when are a race of alien robots _bound_ by man-made, Earth
> > laws?  
>
> It makes absolutely no difference one way or the other.

LOL... Sure it does! You say tah-mah-toe, I say tuh-may-toe.

> Suspsy, are we about done here, "Trolly"?

I hope not!

Trolly McBeam

[Thylacine 2000]

On Jul 24, 1:07 pm, Cappeca <capp...@godisdead.com> wrote:
> Blah blah blah, hate hate hate, blah blah blah, hate hate hate

> I can come here and say Fuck You Thylacine

Well, duh. That's all you ever do and ever have done. I'd say
"without me you'd be nothing," except you're already there. And
instead of pretending to care about Skyflight, why don't you go to his
grave marker and piss on it, which is what you're REALLY doing?

I mean, I know you constantly lie about everything always, and you are
such an emotionally defective specimen of life-wasted hate-crazed
pseudohumanity that this next statement is surely a waste of time.
But I must point out that, even by your standards of tacky trolly
cuntishness, it is ESPECIALLY tacky, trolly, and cuntish for you to
lie about Skyflight and pretend to be "defending" him, when he is dead
and cannot disassocciate himself from your psychosis as he no doubt
would have wanted to. In life, Burt HATED it when people treated ATT
and ATTers like you do. Your lies and faked emotions fool no one.
You don't deserve to cast a shadow upon a lump of his feces. Or
mine.

[Not_Available321]

On Jul 24, 1:48 pm, Chad Rushing <notu...@aol.com> wrote: >
> I must be absolutely crazy to enter this debate ...
>
> On Jul 24, 12:19 pm, Not_Available321 <not_available...@yahoo.com>

> The Decepticons may not have murdered any humans on the show, but one

> could arguably accuse them of assault, -attempted- murder, conspiracy
> to murder, or reckless endangerment as their actions seemed to fall
> into those categories in various situations (ex. moving Cybertron
> close to Earth).  I am just saying ...

And that's all fine and good... but my point is, those are human, man-
made laws we are attempting to pigeon-hole the Decepticons into -- a
race of alien robots with their own set of mores and laws (some of
which we don't know anything about, as has been pointed out elsewhere
in this thread.). Like I said, what may seem like attempted murder to
a group of humans may be a rite of passage to a group of alien
robots. No doubt the dubious actions of the Decepticons could easily
fall under "reckless endangerment," and "attempted murder," but so
could the actions of the Autobots as well -- under the magnifying
glass of human conventions and mores. Is that a little more clear?

Also, to make my position clear... I am not pro-Decepticon or pro-
Autobot. Megatron is indeed a fascist son-of-a-bitch, but that
doesn't mean ALL Decepticons are fascists too. Just like all Autobots
aren't heroic and compassionate.

> > And since when are a race of alien robots _bound_ by man-made, Earth
> > laws?  What may be considered a 'crime' by the denizens of planet
> > Earth may be considered a 'rite of passage' on say, planet Carbombia.
>
> I think there is a huge difference between something being a "crime"
> and something being "evil" (which I think was the original point of
> disagreement).  There are a lot of "evil" actions that are not
> "criminal" under the law, and there are "crimes" under the law that
> are not particularly "evil" actions.

Well, I apologize for mincing words, but I meant 'evil' in my original
statement. Same difference 'n all dat...

Trolly McBeam

[Suspsy]

On Jul 24, 2:42 pm, Not_Available321 <not_available...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Yes, yes... but I'm obviously being facetious and half-serious in all
> my replies here.  If only to fuck with another troll called Suspy.  I
> figger that's pretty obvious, by now.  My name is "Trolly" after
> all... lol.

Of course you're not serious---it's the only way you can delude
yourself into thinking your feeble antics do anything beyond
entertain. And I must say, it's very flattering how you've made me
your hobby, what with keeping a collection of my quotes at hand.
Always good to know I've managed to get under a troll's skin.

By all means, continue to debase yourself. Better yet, why don't you
and Cappeca form a little treehouse club?

Suspsy

"Autobots are an error I intend to correct." -Rippersnapper(G1)

[Not_Available321]

On Jul 24, 4:24 pm, Suspsy <susp...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Of course you're not serious---it's the only way you can delude
> yourself into thinking your feeble antics do anything beyond
> entertain. And I must say, it's very flattering how you've made me
> your hobby, what with keeping a collection of my quotes at hand.
> Always good to know I've managed to get under a troll's skin.

It takes like two seconds to copy and paste your little quotes from
other threads!

Don't flatter yourself into thinking I keep any collection of your
diatribes. I wouldn't waste the space on my hard drive. GOOGLE
DOESN'T LIE. <----- Isn't that another one of your quotes? LOL...
Now go pen another half-assed toy review that a hundred other
sycophants have already done.

I'm an entertainer, not a role-model, kids.

Trolly McBeam

[Chad Rushing]

On Jul 24, 2:34 pm, Not_Available321 <not_available...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
> And that's all fine and good... but my point is, those are human, man-
> made laws we are attempting to pigeon-hole the Decepticons into -- a
> race of alien robots with their own set of mores and laws (some of
> which we don't know anything about, as has been pointed out elsewhere
> in this thread.). Like I said, what may seem like attempted murder to
> a group of humans may be a rite of passage to a group of alien
> robots. No doubt the dubious actions of the Decepticons could easily
> fall under "reckless endangerment," and "attempted murder," but so
> could the actions of the Autobots as well -- under the magnifying
> glass of human conventions and mores. Is that a little more clear?

It is. On a side note, one could possibly argue that the Autobots are
partially culpable for the actions of the Decepticons after the pilot
episodes because they did not follow up after the Decepticon ship
crashed in the ocean and verify that the Decepticons were
incapacitated. Of course, if they had, then it would have made for a
boring Season 1.

> Also, to make my position clear... I am not pro-Decepticon or pro-
> Autobot. Megatron is indeed a fascist son-of-a-bitch, but that
> doesn't mean ALL Decepticons are fascists too. Just like all Autobots
> aren't heroic and compassionate.

I would agree that all Decepticons are not hardcore "evil" and not all
Autobots are heroically "good." There are probably a lot of
"neutrals" (Mirage? Thundercracker?) mixed into both factions for
their own personal reasons.

- Chad

[Grebo]

Arfles!!!

Wow, how this topic ever gone off-topic! Oh well, that's OK with me.
And with Onslaught Six!

I said: <Onslaught...@gmail.com>, who wrote:
> > Sigh. I just know this is gonna get me hate mail, or at least severely
> > wreck my credibility, but...
> > I hated (HATED!!) Batman Begins, and have no desire at all the sit
> > though The Dark Knight.

And 06 wrote:

> How come?
>
> I'm legit curious, is all. Some of the problems with Begins are gone
> in the sequel, so.

Ok, well, in the spirit of open-minded discourse, I'll explain.
Please, everyone, don't hate me. I recognize that everyone thought The
Dark Knight was so great that it was better than sex, ice cream,
Jesus, and puppies all at once... I, however, am The Fifth Dentist on
this one. It's just my feeling. I don't think any of you are wrong,
this is purely my experience with the film.

WHY I DIDN'T LIKE "BATMAN BEGINS":

POINT 1:
I didn't have any interest in seeing ANOTHER reconception of Batman.
It's been done to death. We had the comics, the 60s TV show, the 80s
movies, the Animated Series, "The Batman," and now the new movies. How
many time am I expected to be excited about seeing Batman's origin?
And really, why bother telling us his origin again anyway? Batman is
one of those few characters who is almost universally known (well, at
least in English-speaking countries). He and Superman are THE BIG TWO.
Everyone knows about these guys and has, at least, a basic knowledge
of their "schtick". Why not just do a new movie which is in roughly
the same continuity as the previous movies? They did it with Superman,
and it worked fine. (The new Superman movie had many problems, but
"lack of an origin story" was not one of them.) You wanna do a new
Batman movie? Fine. But please don't make me sit though yet another
origin story. Yawn! Honestly, I thought The Animated Series was far
and away the best version of Batman we've ever gotten. None of the
other iterations -- even the comics -- touch it.

POINT 2:
It's ssooooooo dark. Yes, dark can be good, but "dark" does not
automatically MAKE it good. And, IMO, it is possible to be TOO dark.
I'm OK with dark, man, but pointlessly dark? Nihilistic? Hopeless?
Just plain depressing and miserable and no fun? Nah, thanks but not
thanks. Same reason I wasn't too keen on Cloverfied nor the new
Battlestar Galactica. (Uh-oh, NOW people are gonna hate me!) When a
story is basically just "hey everybody, it's wrist-slittingly dark!"
that's not a draw for me. Keep in mind, I am OK with dark, but not
when a story is dark for darkness' sake. Reality can be dark, but
"dark" does not automatically equal "realistic," and "more dark" does
not automatically "more realistic" nor does it autmatically make
something BETTER. I mean, jeez, the Tim Burton movies were plenty
dark! Batman Begins was darker still, and when I heard that Batman
Begins is even darker than Begins, well, that turns me off.

POINT 3:
I usually like Christian Bale, but I found his Bruce to be really
wooden and boring. My favorite Bruce Wayne, in the movies, was
actually Clooney. (Now everyone will spit on me!) My reasoning is that
in these movies, the actor plays Bruce, not the Batman. The movie
Batman is a big rubber suit in which the actor can barely be seen --
indeed, barely move! Notice he can't look up by bending his neck; he
has to lean his whole body back.

POINT 4:
The movie makes Bruce Wayne a weak-minded dullard. Throughout the
movie, Batman comes up with almost none of his identity himself. He
falls into the idea of having a batcave (literally), and his idea to
dress as a bat comes not from realizing that criminals are a cowardly
and superstitous lot (TM), but rather as part of "taking back" the
fears generated from childhood trauma. Instead of being crafty and
using psychological warfare, Bruce is now trying to get over things,
boo-hoo. (I know this was done in the comic, but that does not make it
GOOD. It sucks that Bruce Banner is "so angry" because he was molested
as a child; that totally subverts the primal point of the Hulk.) So
then the tibetan ninajs (?!?!) mold him into a crimfighter. They hook
him up with the wrist blades. Lucious Fox just HANDS him a batsuit, a
batmobile, and "all those wonderful toys". Wow, Bruce didn't even have
to think of needing these things, he just inherits them. Throughout
the movie, Bruce is characterized as a person onto whom other people
graft their ambitions. He motivates nothing. He's a cipher. That is
lame, and that is not Batman. Oh, and also he's not very smart.
Consider this: he joins a group of ninjas, and then is suprised when
they turn out to be ruthless killers. Duh! They're NINJAS!! What else
would you expect?

POINT 5:
Batman flies now? Um. That's sorta lame. Again, I know he has done it
in the comics sometimes, but in Begins and DK he does it all the time
-- it's one of his "powers". Um, no. And he does it with a morphable,
memory-materials cape? Jesus, that tech is T1000-level! I know Batman
has access to high tech, but that is ultra-sci-fi-tech. Not
appropriate. (In know this point is a nitpick, sorry.)

POINT 6:
Batman kills cops, and has no problem with it. I'm sorry, but when he
has that high-speed chase, with the cops in pursuit, and he drops LAND
MINES which make the cop cars crash, flip, and fly... that's killing
cops. I mean, not certainly, but if someone dropped a land mine in
front of my speeding car, and it blew up and made my car flip through
the air and violently crash, and I was lucky enough to live, I would
say that the guy tried to kill me. Yet Batman, in Begins, did this and
expressed no concern for the cops. BULL.

POINT 7:
The Batmobile is a very cool design, but it's not a Batmobile. Yes, I
read the Dark Knight Returns. I know it was supposed to be inspired by
the Batmobile from it, but no. That story was set in a nigh-post-
apocalyptic future; it was designed for all-out warfare. It was a
TANK. And it still fired rubber bullets! Batman Begins' "Tumbler" is a
very cool vehicle for, say, Cobra (of GI Joe), but is NOT a Batmobile.
Oh, and by the way: Waynetech made the Tumbler as a military
prototype, but the military said "no thanks." So then Batman starts
running around with it. And, uh, nobody recognizes it? Nobody knocks
on Waynetech's door and says "Hi, uh, that mysterious Batman guy --
the one the media is all blown away by, and who is wanted for the
attempted murder of several police officers -- is driving around in
your prototype. We've got a warrant and we're searching this place."
Again, I cry bull on the idea of Bruce just painting the Tumbler black
and nobody noticing the resemblance. Uh-uh.

POINT 8:
The romance between Bruce and whatserface (Katie Holmes) had about as
much chemistry as the scenes between Anakin and Padme in Episode II.
Ugh. In fact, it was during one of their scenes together that it truly
dawned on me that the movie was bad.

POINT 9:
Booga-booga!!!! I'm sorry, but that voice that Batman had was silly.
Growling and roaring like a demon? That's too much. I mean, yeah,
Batman is supposed to sound different and more imposing, but DEMONIC?
No.

Geh. I know I have many more points of contention, but I don't
remember them off the top of my head, and I'm tired. More later, I'm
sure.

Grebo

[Grebo]

Ah yes, that was yet another thing I didn't like about the film. Very
dumb plot device. Yes.

Plus, Batman seems to have NO FUN AT ALL being a superhero. Yeah, Bats
is dark and brooding, but dude, he still enjoys what he does -- meting
out jsutice, protecting the innocent, kicking ass, being scary... that
stuff rocks! Stop being such a damn whiny moper, Bruce. >:-(

Grebo

[Grebo]

Man. This part of the thread is really no fun anymore... :-(

On Jul 24, 2:17 pm, Suspsy <susp...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Grebo]

God, Cappeca, be quiet! You're only making everyone think you'e a
horrible person. Jezus! Stop it and move on, please.

Ugh.

[Grebo]

God, Capecca, your words are really inexcusable. Please stop it and
leave us in peace.

On Jul 24, 1:56 pm, Cappeca <capp...@godisdead.com> wrote:
>

> I've got more to do, thanks for the interest. And yeah, it's all about
> a dark past that you seem unaware off.

P.S. - We are not interested in your past.

[Gustavo Wombat]

His saw his parents killed before his eyes, and after many years of
training, became a crime fighter, but is having moral doubts over who
exactly is evil.

Gustavo! (linking bits of thread together)

[SteveD]

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:46:44 -0700 (PDT), Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:

>Were it not for the human
>alliance with the Autobots, the Decepticons might not necessarily have
>had a reason to look at humans as being any more or less special than
>other animals with tool- and/or language capability like elephants or
>whales or chimpanzees.

Maybe termites, given that we build cities which are noticeable even on
Transformer scales. Or maybe wasps/bees, if we're packing a lot of
small-arms weaponry.

We're a little bigger, though, proportionally - I'm not sure how people
would view eighteen-inch-long wasps.

-SteveD

[Gustavo Wombat]

On Jul 24, 2:52 pm, Grebo <grebog...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Arfles!!!
>
> Wow, how this topic ever gone off-topic! Oh well, that's OK with me.
> And with Onslaught Six!
>
> I said: <Onslaught...@gmail.com>, who wrote:
>
> > > Sigh. I just know this is gonna get me hate mail, or at least severely
> > > wreck my credibility, but...
> > > I hated (HATED!!) Batman Begins, and have no desire at all the sit
> > > though The Dark Knight.
> And 06 wrote:
> > How come?
>
> > I'm legit curious, is all. Some of the problems with Begins are gone
> > in the sequel, so.
>
> Ok, well, in the spirit of open-minded discourse, I'll explain.
> Please, everyone, don't hate me. I recognize that everyone thought The
> Dark Knight was so great that it was better than sex, ice cream,
> Jesus, and puppies all at once... I, however, am The Fifth Dentist on
> this one. It's just my feeling. I don't think any of you are wrong,
> this is purely my experience with the film.
>
> WHY I DIDN'T LIKE "BATMAN BEGINS":
>
> POINT 1:
> I didn't have any interest in seeing ANOTHER reconception of Batman.
> It's been done to death.

I don't mind another version of the character. It has been roughly 20
years, and one of the things that makes the character work so well is
how few parts of the story are immutable, and how much can be bent
with the times. If they are doing an all new take on the character, a
new origin story makes sense, so we can see how *this* Batman came to
be.

> POINT 2:
> It's ssooooooo dark. Yes, dark can be good, but "dark" does not
> automatically MAKE it good. And, IMO, it is possible to be TOO dark.
> I'm OK with dark, man, but pointlessly dark? Nihilistic? Hopeless?
> Just plain depressing and miserable and no fun? Nah, thanks but not
> thanks.

Its the story of a man slowly working through the rage and hurt and
finding hope. Which is very dark, but not nihilistic. I'm not crazy
about lots of parts of this take, but the really dark version of the
story is appropriate to an extent.

I will never understand the version of Batman that refers to Robin as
"chum" all the time, though.

> Same reason I wasn't too keen on Cloverfied nor the new
> Battlestar Galactica.

Battlestar manages just a bit of warmth. Not much, but there's the
story of humans persevering and never giving up hope, despite
everything. I cannot say that I recommend it, because that would all
depend on whether then ending can be simultaneously believable within
the universe, and a good payoff for what the characters have been
through.

>
> POINT 3:
> I usually like Christian Bale, but I found his Bruce to be really
> wooden and boring. My favorite Bruce Wayne, in the movies, was
> actually Clooney.

Clooney was great. Pity about the movie around him. Bane was wasted,
and while I liked the concept of Mr. Freeze having an absolutely
terrible sense of humor and not knowing it, in a movie that bad it was
a bit much to distinguish bad humor for intentionally bad humor from
everything else bad.

> POINT 4:
> The movie makes Bruce Wayne a weak-minded dullard. Throughout the
> movie, Batman comes up with almost none of his identity himself. He
> falls into the idea of having a batcave (literally), and his idea to
> dress as a bat comes not from realizing that criminals are a cowardly
> and superstitous lot (TM), but rather as part of "taking back" the
> fears generated from childhood trauma. Instead of being crafty and
> using psychological warfare, Bruce is now trying to get over things,
> boo-hoo. (I know this was done in the comic, but that does not make it
> GOOD. It sucks that Bruce Banner is "so angry" because he was molested
> as a child; that totally subverts the primal point of the Hulk.) So
> then the tibetan ninajs (?!?!) mold him into a crimfighter. They hook
> him up with the wrist blades. Lucious Fox just HANDS him a batsuit, a
> batmobile, and "all those wonderful toys". Wow, Bruce didn't even have
> to think of needing these things, he just inherits them. Throughout
> the movie, Bruce is characterized as a person onto whom other people
> graft their ambitions. He motivates nothing. He's a cipher. That is
> lame, and that is not Batman.

Just a random aside, having seen "Wanted", I was disappointed that
Morgan Freeman died at the end (Yes, I'm spoiling the movie, it was
terrible), because it would have been nice to somehow set it in the
same universe as Batman Begins, and have him become Lucius Fox and
manipulate Bruce Wayne into becoming Batman.

The evil Lucius Fox. It would have been great.

> POINT 5:
> Batman flies now? Um. That's sorta lame.

Sucky.

> POINT 6:
> Batman kills cops, and has no problem with it. I'm sorry, but when he
> has that high-speed chase, with the cops in pursuit, and he drops LAND
> MINES which make the cop cars crash, flip, and fly... that's killing
> cops.

By any chance, have you been enjoying Frank Miller's "All Star Batman
& Robin"? It's somewhere between awesome and awful.

Gustavo!

[Zobovor]

On Jul 24, 10:06 am, "Kil - Michael McCarthy" <michaelmc...@aol.com>
wrote:

> Decepticon crimes against humanity include attempted planetary destruction,
> or destruction of the sun, or the ramming of said planet into said sun, all
> of which would have resulted in the annihilation of the entire human
> species.

Sending the Earth into the Sun was planned by a single rogue
Decepticon who was acting without authority. Given that this act
would have also destroyed the Decepticon leader, this can hardly be
considered representative of the Decepticon ideals on the whole!

Zob

[Zobovor]

On Jul 23, 7:30 pm, FortMax <fortressmaximu...@verizon.net> wrote:

> I call bullshit on comparing the G1 cartoons to WWII propaganda films.
> For the comparison to be valid, the cartoons and comics would have to be
> propaganda pieces made by Autobots.

The cartoon wasn't written by Autobots, so you're right that the two
can't be compared at all on that level. The reason I was using a real-
life example was to show that the propaganda films document two
opposing sides at war but tell the story from only one point of view,
but we know there's another point of view that we're not being
shown.

One of the reasons I love episodes like "Webworld" is because it's
told entirely from the Decepticon point of view. In that episode, the
Decepticons are the protagonists, and the camera follows them around
as they relate to each other, discuss their problems, try to find
solutions, and ultimately overcome their obstacles. It's so
refreshing *not* to cut away to see what the Autobots are doing every
ten seconds and leave us to just assume that the Decepticons managed
to work things out somehow. "Webworld" paints the Decepticons as
sympathetic characters that you can care about, with the Torkulon
therapists playing the part of the villains. I don't think anybody
would reach the conclusion that the Decepticons are evil if this were
the only Transformers episode they'd seen.

Zob

[Suspsy]

On Jul 24, 8:50 pm, Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:

> One of the reasons I love episodes like "Webworld" is because it's
> told entirely from the Decepticon point of view.  In that episode, the
> Decepticons are the protagonists, and the camera follows them around
> as they relate to each other, discuss their problems, try to find
> solutions, and ultimately overcome their obstacles.  It's so
> refreshing *not* to cut away to see what the Autobots are doing every
> ten seconds and leave us to just assume that the Decepticons managed
> to work things out somehow.  "Webworld" paints the Decepticons as
> sympathetic characters that you can care about, with the Torkulon
> therapists playing the part of the villains.  I don't think anybody
> would reach the conclusion that the Decepticons are evil if this were
> the only Transformers episode they'd seen.

Except for the part at the beginning where Galvatron rants about
crushing the Autobots, crushing Earth and its "puny humanity," and
crushing all who oppose him. And the parts where he's either
threatening to kill the other patients or simply babbling words like,
"Crush, kill, mangle, distort!"

Oh, and the part in the opening sequence where you hear the verse,
"Autobots wage their battle to destroy the EVIL forces of the
Decepticons!"

Suspsy

"He IS crazy!" -Cyclonus(G1)

[Grebo]

Woofies!

The Awesome Gustavo Wombat <GustavoWom...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> His saw his parents killed before his eyes, and after many years of
> training, became a crime fighter, but is having moral doubts over who
> exactly is evil.
>
> Gustavo! (linking bits of thread together)

Hahahahahaha! Oh my, Gustavo, you ARE awesome. :-)

Greebie

[Grebo]

Bowing wowarf,

The awesomely awesomr Gustavo Wombat <GustavoWom...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I don't mind another version of the character.

I hear ya. It's just my opinion (obviously). Oh! And I forgot the
1940s serials! :-)

> Its the story of a man slowly working through the rage and hurt and
> finding hope.

Too little hope found too late for me. Again, just my opinion. I'm
glad you didn't feel as I did. (I WISH I liked these movies!) Same
reason I don't like Hudsucker Proxy or the Geroge RR Martin "Game of
Thrones" books -- Im not interested in following a story which spends
almost all of its time torturing the character(s) just so that said
character(s) can get righteous vindication in the very end. It still
means I spent almost the entire time watching the protagonist(s)
suffer and suffer and suffer.

> I'm not crazy about lots of parts of this take, but the really
> dark version of the story is appropriate to an extent.

To an extent, yes. I just think it goes too far. Again, for me
personally.

> I will never understand the version of Batman that refers to Robin as
> "chum" all the time, though.

That was just groovy, zany shit, man. :-) Batman's comics survived the
"Seduction Of The Innocent" controversy of the fifties by watering
themselves down, making Bats a father figure to Robin. It took a long
time for Batman to recover from that depiction -- well after the time
of the 60's show.

> Battlestar manages just a bit of warmth.

Not enough for me, personally. I'm still betting there's gonna be an
episode where various characters survive a crash-landing and,
stranded, have to resort to eating each other. It would fit right in.

> Clooney was great.

Thank you!!!!!

> Pity about the movie around him.

God, I know, right?

> Just a random aside, having seen "Wanted", I was disappointed that
> Morgan Freeman died at the end (Yes, I'm spoiling the movie, it was
> terrible),

Damn, dude. Glad I already saw the flick. Me, I liked it a lot.
(Surprise?!?) It was radically different from the comic, but once I
got over that and was able to take the film on its own merits, I
really dug it. Plus, I swear the filmmakers must read Gun Smith Cats
-- all that stunty car/gun action is almost plagarized from it.

> because it would have been nice to somehow set it in the
> same universe as Batman Begins, and have him become Lucius Fox and
> manipulate Bruce Wayne into becoming Batman.
>
> The evil Lucius Fox. It would have been great.

Ha! You're right, that would. :-)

> Sucky.

Word.

> By any chance, have you been enjoying Frank Miller's "All Star Batman
> & Robin"? It's somewhere between awesome and awful.

I haven't read it yet, though I want to. I've heard much the same --
well, rather I've heard some say it's awesome and some say it's awful.
I'm gonna ask a friend to lend me some. Frank Miller seems to have
jumped the shark as a comics creator, though. Hollywood's his gig now.

Grebo