An open letter to Hasbro
Buzz Mooney
group, the Trenches, and just about every other Joe board, but in
light of the iffy sales of some of the movie-based Joe lines, I though
I'd put all these thoughts into one place, hoping that maybe a Hasbro
lurker might read it, and maybe give some thought to what I'm saying.
I also hope all of you in the board will bear with me, and my long
post:
Dear Hasbro:
I know we're a bunch of middle aged geeks who play with toys,
but we know what we're talking about! We predicted that Acc suit Duke
wouldn't sell, because we are the people who would buy! We would have
told you that the price point on the movie figures was too high, as
well. When you started selling Joes in '64, and again, when you made
Joe fuzzy, we were the people who played with Joes, who asked for Joes
every birthday, Christmas, and Hannukah. WE have ALWAYS been your best
market for Joes!
If I may rant a bit, Hasbro, I recently bought the Walmart AT Joes,
and won an AT Headquarters on eBay. I thought to myself, "Joe was my
favorite toy ever, but my boys are used to much more sophisticated
toys. The fuzzheads won't appeal to them." Now, when they play with
Joes, (and we have about 70) the first Joes they reach for are the
Fuzzheads. Not the CC Joes, Not my vintage knockoffs, Not Dragon, or
21st, or BBI, Not even their growing COBRA cadre. They've each chosen
a fuzzhead, to name after themselves, and those are the backyard
heroes, alongside the Land Adventurer (who always represents me, when
they play, and has actually been in a movie). So our core team is a
Land Adventurer, a Sea Adventurer, and an Air Adventurer. Basic, solid
Joes have stood the test of time, and will continue to do so. You
created what I consider the best toy ever, and you have it within your
grasp to continue to do so, but you come up with stuff that even my 12-
year-olds don't want.
Look at the way Mattel markets Barbie: She's in the grocery store, for
Pete's sake! Any day of the year, a girl can walk into a store and
come out with a basic Barbie for what, 8, 10 bucks? No frills, just
Babs in a swimsuit. but that's one more sale for Mattel, and one more
little girl with a new friend. (That's also an easy out for someone
who has to buy a present for a niece, but doesn't have time to shop
for one) Then there's "Coca Cola Picnic Barbie", which is just Babs
with a bottle of Coke! Marketing! Brilliant! You could do the same
with Gatoraid, maybe "Gatoraid Training Joe", or maybe Poweraid would
like that boost in the market. My point here is, Just a Joe with no
frills (Possibly even not a rifle!) at a low price point, even wearing
nothing but a pair of shorts, would probably be a boost to your
flagging sales, and would also boost customer loyalty. (and would cut
DEEPLY into Mattel's sales of Ken! What little girl EVER played with
Ken, when there was a Joe in the room? And what would those same girls
do if they could buy a female Joe for $8?) Low price-point CC Joes,
Fuzzheads, or both would appeal to the backyard-Joe-playing kids, and
the kit-bashing Dads, like me.
I know what you're thinking: "Nice! Another rant from some overweight,
balding, middle-aged geek who's obsessed with GI Joes!" You'd be
wrong, though. I'm not balding, although the rest is pretty much true!
But playing with Joes as a kid inspired me as an artist and a
craftsman, making much of my own Joe gear, which gave me a lot of the
skills I've used since as a professional Hollywood Special Effects
artist and Propmaker, so I have a professional fondness for Joes, as
well. It was also Joes on John Lassiter's desk, which his kids
wouldn't leave alone, that were the impetus for Toy Story 2, and who
got the screen time? Barbie! Why? Because the Barbie Marketing
department is formed entirely of mad geniuses!
Give it some though, Hasbro, You can make Joe as hot a seller as you
want, if you just have a little faith in us, the fans, in Joe, and in
the powerful imaginations of the kids playing with Joes in ten
thousand backyards, even as we speak.
Buzz Mooney
P.S. My boys like to combine Joes with Nerf guns; the Vulcan makes a
GREAT heavy artillery piece! How's THAT for cross marketing? ;-)
Jackel
Well said Buzz,
Seriously Hasbro Lurker, if you are out there, the original 12 inch
Joe is the best toy ever. There is little doubt that if Hasbro would
go back to the original marketing concept, selling the razor and the
blades, that you would dominate the action figure market for decades.
Don't limit the effort to rehashing the stuff from the 60's and 70's,
even though we would love to buy that stuff. Instead expand! Give us
the basic Joe in his shorts, but sell us blades! Give us extreme
sports Joe, football Joe, Blackwater contractor Joe, rock climber Joe,
sailborder Joe, wake boarder Joe. The possibilities are endless.
That is the best thing about Joe, he can go anywhere and do anything.
Hasbro should be pumping out the blades and raking in the bucks.
Some in your corporate headquarters may say, no no, the 12 inch action
figure craze is over. No way, Joeheads all over are dormant because
Hasbro is dormant when it comes to the original Joe. Don't believe
me, announce that you are going to release a repro Land Adventurer for
Christmas with say three blades, then sit back and watch this Board
and all the others like it go nuts with chatter about what you plan to
release, where you plan to release it, price point, scouting reports,
etc.
We are here, and boys are the same now as they ever were. If you make
it, they will buy it!
Come on Hasbro, gives us the real Joe!
Jackel, ITFC 00018
holensock
I'd love to see Hasbro do what both your letters have said. And I'd
like to see them use the vintage head sculpt but with a super
articulated body, like the Club has been using on some of their
Convention sets.
How neat would it be to walk into a store and into a 'green' aisle
loaded with the stuff you both suggested AND modern military uni's and
equipment...sigh...
Garry Douglas
news:035de522-b925-4c3e...@p15g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
In line with this I was wondering what one improvement to the original '64
Joe (or '66 AM) would have made it even better than it was.
I would have liked it to have had better hands, particularly the left. Not
necessarily the later KFG style but something like DML or BBi that would
allow a weapon or tool to be held.
ster...@shout.net
me wailing for vintage head SA bodies with the following additional
improvements:
1) Make the heads easily "push-on, pull-off"
2) Same for the hands. If Hasbro made the heads and hands come off
easily with a snap joint like Cy Girls hands, etc. then imagine how
fun it would be.
We could switch from a saluting hand, to a trigger hand, to a clenched
fist all in 1 second. Hoo-yeah!
Mark
Garry Douglas wrote:
> "holensock" <vojt...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>
Gun Shy
hobby, and improved on twice after DML and others came along, all long
before Hasbro finally got their rather good superbody figures came
out, and before they flamed out, they imrpoved on even just "basic
carded bodies" where you could pull almost the entire figure apart to
swap things out or replace pieces.
21st Century Toys Ultimate Soldier
As for trying to tell Hasbro anything, it's much like a well known
politician said to a heckler recently ...
"Might as well talk to the dining room table."
Nuff said.
On Oct 21, 9:15 am, "sterl...@shout.net" <sterl...@shout.net> wrote:
> Yup. We've had this thread before, and long time 'boxers will remember
> me wailing for vintage head SA bodies with the following additional
> improvements:
>
> 1) Make the heads easily "push-on, pull-off"
>
> 2) Same for the hands. If Hasbro made the heads and hands come off
> easily with a snap joint like Cy Girls hands, etc. then imagine how
> fun it would be.
>
> We could switch from a saluting hand, to a trigger hand, to a clenched
> fist all in 1 second. Hoo-yeah!
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> Garry Douglas wrote:
> > "holensock" <vojtk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>
> > In line with this I was wondering what one improvement to the original '64
> > Joe (or '66 AM) would have made it even better than it was.
>
> > I would have liked it to have had better hands, particularly the left. Not
> > necessarily the later KFG style but something like DML or BBi that would
> > allow a weapon or tool to be held.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Garry Douglas
news:b9d70fd8-1550-497b...@l33g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
> Yup. We've had this thread before, and long time 'boxers will remember
> me wailing for vintage head SA bodies with the following additional
> improvements:
>
> 1) Make the heads easily "push-on, pull-off"
>
> 2) Same for the hands. If Hasbro made the heads and hands come off
> easily with a snap joint like Cy Girls hands, etc. then imagine how
> fun it would be.
>
> We could switch from a saluting hand, to a trigger hand, to a clenched
> fist all in 1 second. Hoo-yeah!
>
> Mark
They would both be improvements to the recent SA figures (I've lost count of
the number of SA wrist sockets I've drilled out with a Dremel - and not
always successfully) but I was really thinking about one difference that
Hasbo could have made back in the day.
Garry
Sean Huxter
"Buzz Mooney" <buzz....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2ef7a85c-1994-458c...@l35g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
> I've said all this before, and so have many of the members of this
> group, the Trenches, and just about every other Joe board, but in
> light of the iffy sales of some of the movie-based Joe lines, I though
> I'd put all these thoughts into one place, hoping that maybe a Hasbro
> lurker might read it, and maybe give some thought to what I'm saying.
> I also hope all of you in the board will bear with me, and my long
> post:
(.... excellent letter snipped for space...)
Bravo, Buzz.
Right on the money.
You can add Mike Tucker to the list too. He uses GI Joes (Action Man,
really, since he's in England) when he does 1:6 scale miniatures for the new
Doctor Who program. I had a long talk with him about a year and a half ago
about his miniature work, since I do amateur miniature work myself, and he
gave me a lot of insight into his methods, and they usually include Action
Man.
Recently, in fact, in the new SF film "The Moon", Action Man can be seen
piloting in the cockpit of a miniature lunar rover.
GI Joe inspired me too. I always wanted to work in miniatures for film,
getting my inspiration first from Thunderbirds, then GI Joe. I satisfy
myself with hobby miniature work instead, but I still love it. My actual job
is in computer games, but that probably wouldn't have happened either if not
for my interest in animation, a lot of which I got while playing with
well-articulated figures - GI Joe! that could easily be used for animation
models.
Hasbro has let us all down over the last few years. We saw a very nice
upsurge about 8 years ago thereabouts, with lots of re-imagined AT sets, and
vintage approximations, which thrilled us. And we bought.
But their latest forray has been a disaster, and they seem to have no idea
how to market a product.
Sean.
frank
I agree too. While my first action figure love is Major Matt
Mason, GI Joe is #2. The 'real' GI Joe from the '60s thru the AT of
the early '70s. I couldn't care less about the 3 3/4" stuff, except
for the few 3 3/4" collector stuff related to the 12" guys. My GF,
bless her heart, was all excited (for me) about the GI Joe movie. It
took forever for me to get her to understand that none of that crap is
GI Joe. Even in Wal Mart, 'Look, GI Joe!'. Of course it was the COBRA
movie crap. I think I have her clear on what's Joe & what's not. I was
afraid she'd get me some of that crap this coming Christmas & I'd HAVE
to hang on to it unless we split up. I think she knows better now,
tho.
Joebros
Hasbro showed an Action Soldier, Sailor, Marine and Pilot, and a Land
Adventurer (ala Wal-Mart figures) at their recent press day.
http://www.yojoe.com/reviews/interviews/gijoedvdpressday.shtml
ster...@shout.net
the "history" of Joe.
And they're the same repro figures we've seen many times, same nose-
picker hands, etc. In other words, none of the improvements we're
talking about.
Collectors of 12" Joes are being left high and dry by Hasbro. They're
only interested in the RAH and Cobra stuff now.
Mark
Jack Widow Rendezvous
that Barbie is a mostly inarticulate and easy to produce toy for lower
purchase points. A cheap G.I. Joe for groceries, thrift stores and
pharmacies would be like the 1970's blow-molded Defender. And that
thing was g'awful.
Sadly I believe the best option for Hasbro in recent times is to
create a more diverse line of 3 3/4 inch figures for lower price
points. An Adventurer line (like the G.I. Joe club is planning),
police, fireman, rescue, race car, space travel, etc. that would be
the logical way to go. Keep the numbers of each release low and
collectible (unlike the uncollectible glut of recent G.I. Joe ROC,
Indiana Jones and Star Wars) more like the 1980's releases and follow
up with a new cartoon or other media to back it up and you might have
a winning series that could then lead older collectors to the
traditional 12 inch tall line.
warthog
I think that Hasbro doesn't care anymore about us Joe guys. If they
did they would continue to make the best action figure ever made. I
agree that Barbie can be found every where and she continues to flood
stores even more at Christmas. I think a lot has to do with the guys
in the design departments. They are probably younger guys who never
played GI Joe. I wrote to Alan Hassefield some years ago and he
responded that any letter written about GI Joe he does read. Maybe we
should start writing the guys at Hasbro that helped get GI Joe in our
hands. I don't think they read this forum.
warthog
The problem is Hasbro doesn't know how to market and sell GI Joe like
they did in the 60's. They don't care about GI Joe anymore so we are
left out in the cold again......and at Christmas too. No GI Joes will
be found under anyones Christmas tree this year. To bad they couldn't
revive him at have him stores like they did in the 60's. They do need
to remake the remaining Soldiers Of The World Joes have have large and
small boxed ones with seperate accessory cards. But I guess that will
never happen.
ARROW
You\ll never see GIJOE again, like it was in the 60's--but not because
of Hasbro. Its the retailers and consumers that are at fault.
The reason is that consumers have said they do not like purchasing
toys that require accessories to be "complete". Its considered to be a
poor value for the dollar in their mind, and the (legit) question is
why should they have to buy more stuff, when they already pay enough
for the basic toy as it is. The retailers agree with this sentiment--
which is why you almost never see accessory sets sold with action
figures.
The exception to this rule is Barbie--because Barbie whole rasion
d'etre is fashion, thus accessory sets of clothes and such are
essential to that line. If you have noticed though, you'll see that
even Mattel has steered the line from basic dolls and separately
available accessories to figures boxed as complete sets with
accessories. Its inescapable.
GIJOE simply cannot return to the razor and blades concept it had in
the 60's because the market place and the consumer base have undergone
a whole paradigm shift to a different way of thinking.
If anything, the sensible way to approach GIJOE for us 12" collectors
is the route of the Sideshow 12" RAH figures--high end ( and
expensive, sigh) collectibles with deluxe detailing and accessories.
It would be markedly different than the purely toy format GIJOE has
been up until now, but it could be an attractive, tasteful,grown-up
item.
In essence, you could have a completely accurate and detailed
historical representation of a "Action Soldier", as the toy was
originally meant to represent, and so on.
I do not know if there is a market for such upscale figures, and I
doubt if Hasbro does either.
For now, we are in a decided lull--but like anything cyclic, I do not
think we have seen the last of the GIJOE were know and love.
Jackel
>
> - Show quoted text -
Arrow makes a good point regarding the razor and blades concept. But
the thing is that the so called "high end collectable" is really
anything but a collectable. I remember seeing a documentary about the
comics industry. They were talking to Stan Lee about the huge boom
the industry enjoyed due to the collectable crazy. Lee said that they
would print four versions of the same comic, all with different covers
and the collectors would snap them up and store them mint in little
bags. But after awhile it finally dawned on people that the reason
the Golden Age comics were so valuable was because they were so rare.
The so called "collectables" that Marvel and DC were pumping out were
never going to be valuable because they were making thousands of
copies and the collectors were storing them, therefore they would
never be rare even way out in the future.
The same thing happend with Joe. When I got back into Joe ebay had
just hit the net. I remember a nekkied Joe would go for $100+. There
was way more demand than available supply. The guys like Chris in MN
were buying for their collections, others were buying for customizing
potential, (remember DeCastro, and Tripwire, etc.), some bought for
play value, some even for investment potential. Pretty soon the
manufacturers figured out that there was a demand out there and they
started to fill it. We had ME's, CC's, TC, 21st, Dragon, etc., etc.
Now what does a nekkid vintage Joe go for? $25 - $30? I can't
remember the last time I even went out to look for one on ebay.
So I guess that all things considered, a high end "collectable Joe"
isn't going to happen, at least from Hasbro. They are too big to mess
with the limited quantities that would be necessary to give such an
offering any collectibility value at all.
I guess we should be greatful for the Club. I would love to be able
to stroll into Toys R Us and pick from a huge green isle, but I don't
see it happening, but at least we can go to the Club and get cool
stuff. We just all need to be sure to support the Club. Without them
we might really be screwed!
Jackel, ITFC 00018
William
> On Nov 6, 10:51 am, ARROW <kendaviscarto...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
I fear you are correct in what you say. These trends are the reason I
have been spending more and more time on Kitbashing. Taking what
limited products that are available and creating for myself the things
that Hasbro does not. Although this is not a golden age for buying
new products there are alot of great services for kitbashing and
restoring. One Sixth Depot comes to mind, several good flocking
services are out there too, and we also have access to a great deal of
information and inspiration here on the box.
William
Gun Shy
The problem was / is that Hasbro couldn't or wouldn't draw a real line
between "kid's toys" and "Adult collector", let alone a finer line yet
for the "Adult Hobbyist".
You can't expect the Adult Hobbyist to pay prices for a kid's level
toy compared to what they pay for a real museum quality piece, and you
sure can't make a museum quality piece for a $10 retail price. Some
companies made / make lower cost boxed figures and carded stuff that
came / come "close enough" for many hobbyists to at least have a good
basis to start with, and upgrade as their interest and money would
allow.
DML and others know that a hobbyist will buy accessories or special
items, nude figures, and other bits from dealers that will break them
out, and Monkey Depot did that long before OSD, but the concept is
proven. Lots of companies still put out carded sets, and they sell,
because they appeal to the hobbyist.
A lot of us real 60's child Joe heads will still pick up a Hasbro
repro 64 Joe because we still like them, but they best be cheap,
because most of us have long moved on to far better and more detailed,
and hence our money is aimed that way too.
A "collector" doesn't think the way a hobbyist does, and they both
don't have the same values a kid does. A Collector thinks about
getting "the whole set" of a series of figures, a hobbyist thinks
about getting a complete squad read to going into his latest diorama,
and a kid wants what he wants for now for whatever reason, then
something different minutes to hours later, maybe a day or two tops.
Look at forums like the Sixth Division, Sixth Army Group, One Sixth
Warriors, Men with Dolls, and you won't find many people wanting to go
back to 1/6 as done in the 60's and 70's, save for the "Razor /
Razorblade" marketing practices. Hobbyists just don't "collect" or sit
around and wait for the next "hot item" to buy. They just get out and
do something with what they have, and plan on what to buy or make to
complete their projects later. To them it's not a simple race to buy
more, but to do more and do that at a much slower pace.
Let me make it in terms based on reality. There is a world of
difference between buying a DML "Soldat" concept deluxe and complete
boxed figure set, and buying the 60's style Hasbro version of that
concept in the form of their "Footlocker set". I expect to buy a
"Footlocker set" for 1/2 to 1/3 the price of a Soldat set, if I was to
even consider one at all now. I won't consider paying $25 for a
simple shrink wrapped carded set of AF dress stuff ( coat, pants, hat,
shoes if Hasbro feels generous ) after having to buy other stuff just
to qualify to have that "privilege", when I can buy some really good
carded sets of museum quality stuff for that same money or less,
perhaps even a better quality "basic" figure complete with full
uniform and some desired single accessory included just about any time
I wish without any other entanglements.
Rudy Panucci
> Razor / Razorblades still works,
Where? Examples please. You can't just drop in a blunt statement like
that with no support. This isn't cable news. We know what we're talking
about here.
The toy market today is totally different from what it was when we were
kids.
but that isn't what the problem is.
> The problem was / is that Hasbro couldn't or wouldn't draw a real line
> between "kid's toys" and "Adult collector", let alone a finer line yet
> for the "Adult Hobbyist".
The collector's market never grew large enough for them to bother
with.Instead of growing at a healthy pace, the adult collector group has
shrunk and become more divided and specialized.
Kid's toys are Hasbro's business. Always has been. The adult collectible
was something they looked at as an additional revenue stream. It didn't
pan out very well, due to a number of factors.
>
> DML and others know that a hobbyist will buy accessories or special
> items, nude figures, and other bits from dealers that will break them
> out, and Monkey Depot did that long before OSD, but the concept is
> proven. Lots of companies still put out carded sets, and they sell,
> because they appeal to the hobbyist.
They don't sell in numbers large enough to justify Hasbro's attention.
The production run on the lamest GI Joe movie tie-in is greater than the
entire production output of Dragon over the last five years.
It's the difference between big business and small business. Hasbro is
big business. They operate on a scale so great that the cost of dealing
with small hobby dealers is not justifiable to their bottom line.
The best way for Hasbro to deal with the hobby market is to license the
rights to GI Joe to entities like The Club, who can operate like a small
business to cater to the small group of hobbyists out there.
And that's what they're doing. The problem is that there are only so
many of us, and only so many dollars to go around. The club took a huge
hit while the Action Man 40th line was still going. It was a great line,
but it pretty much sucked up all the available disposable income from
the core groups of vntage-style 12" collectors.
Now that the Action Man line has ended, we might see more from the club.
>
> A lot of us real 60's child Joe heads will still pick up a Hasbro
> repro 64 Joe because we still like them, but they best be cheap,
> because most of us have long moved on to far better and more detailed,
> and hence our money is aimed that way too.
Uh..that's a little silly, Keith. The hobby is fragmented, but most of
the folks who collected in the 60s perfer the nostalgia. The real growth
in the ultra-detailed end of the market comes from the slightly-younger
guys who got into the CC as an adult after having some contact with the
AT guys or their older brother's Joes.
And the high-end guys are pretty well-served by the companies that are
already out there. If Hasbro made a play for that market, they'd be
ridiculed by the "Dragon snob" types before any product was ever seen.
And it's still a tiny market.
When Hasbro does a nostalgic reissue, it's not aimed at us--it's to
entice the nostalgic non-collector. Us hardocre collectors are the
safety net---we'll make sure they sell out, but the idea is to snag some
parents with nostalgia and try to create a cross-generational brand
loyalty.
>
> A "collector" doesn't think the way a hobbyist does, and they both
> don't have the same values a kid does. A Collector thinks about
> getting "the whole set" of a series of figures, a hobbyist thinks
> about getting a complete squad read to going into his latest diorama,
> and a kid wants what he wants for now for whatever reason, then
> something different minutes to hours later, maybe a day or two tops.
Again, that's a pretty silly assertion, but I think I get your drift.
Stated more clearly--a "collector" simply acquires and displays, while a
"hobbyist" customizes and creates dioramas. Hobbyists play with their
toys, while the collector is happy just to have them---if that's what
you meant.
Which still doesn't address the main problem--that there aren't really
enough of either group for Hasbro to be interested in dealing directly
with them.
>
> Look at forums like the Sixth Division, Sixth Army Group, One Sixth
> Warriors, Men with Dolls, and you won't find many people wanting to go
> back to 1/6 as done in the 60's and 70's, save for the "Razor /
> Razorblade" marketing practices. Hobbyists just don't "collect" or sit
> around and wait for the next "hot item" to buy. They just get out and
> do something with what they have, and plan on what to buy or make to
> complete their projects later. To them it's not a simple race to buy
> more, but to do more and do that at a much slower pace.
Sounds like you're trying to put down collectors in favor of hobbyists.
Still a bit silly.
>
> Let me make it in terms based on reality. There is a world of
> difference between buying a DML "Soldat" concept deluxe and complete
> boxed figure set, and buying the 60's style Hasbro version of that
> concept in the form of their "Footlocker set". I expect to buy a
> "Footlocker set" for 1/2 to 1/3 the price of a Soldat set, if I was to
> even consider one at all now. I won't consider paying $25 for a
> simple shrink wrapped carded set of AF dress stuff ( coat, pants, hat,
> shoes if Hasbro feels generous ) after having to buy other stuff just
> to qualify to have that "privilege", when I can buy some really good
> carded sets of museum quality stuff for that same money or less,
> perhaps even a better quality "basic" figure complete with full
> uniform and some desired single accessory included just about any time
> I wish without any other entanglements.
Uh..you seem to have a real anti-Hasbro chip your shoulder there, Keith.
How about "live and let live?" Collect what you want, let other people
collect what they want, and don't get all bent out of shape over it.
The fact of the matter is, Hasbro surrendered control of the GI Joe line
to Paramount this year--and Paramount gave it to the guy who spearheaded
the toys based on The Transformers Movie. The Transformers toys did
great because the guy was a fan as a kid, but also knew how to tailor
his fondness for the line to today's market.
He was also lucky. It's easier to sell toy cars than it is to sell toy
action figures.
He didn't know what he was doing with GI Joe, and it shows.
Once Hasbro regains control of the line, we'll see if the heightened
recognition from the movie pays off.
For now, our best bet is to support the club if we want good vintage
repro stuff. In a few years, when the kids who grew up on the Classic
Collection hit the disposable income age, then we'll see a resurgence.
Later, Rudy
Bruce Mueller
the shelf (or on the peg or in the bin) is taken up by disposable razors.
Sure, there are cartridges (does anyone still use the double-edged razor
blade that fits into the holder you screwed open by twisting the bottom or
did that die out with my grandfather's generation?) available but mostly for
pretty high end prices. I can still find the off-brand cartridges for my
ancient Atra handle at Walmart for around $3.50 for 10, but that's about it
for anything low-end. If the "razors and blades" concept doesn't hold true
any more even for the shaving market, how does anyone imagine that it is
still going to work for action figures?
Thanks for the detailed rebuttal, Rudy. This thread has been bugging me for
days. I'm thankful that Hasbro is still producing GI Joes. Just because they
have a movie tie-in doesn't mean they're not Joe. Anything that keeps the GI
Joe brand alive is a good thing (OK, maybe the Defenders really wasn't a
good thing). I don't really care for them, I probably won't buy any of them,
but that doesn't mean that Hasbro shouldn't be making them. (To be honest, I
wasn't all that fond of the switch to AT figures and accessories--what in
the world was GI Joe doing with so much hair, life-like or not--but I've
finally gotten over that.)
The day that Hasbro starts worrying about what sort of Joes I want to buy
will be the day that I start being afraid for the continued future of the GI
Joe line. I'm way past the age (at least chronologically) of the target
audience that they need to be reaching. Hasbro is a toy company. Toys first
and foremost should appeal to kids. If some middle-aged man can re-live some
childhood memories/dreams/fantasies by purchasing them, fine, but that
shouldn't be the main consideration for what a toy company chooses to
produce.
I didn't go see the GI Joe movie in the theaters and don't necessarily plan
to buy it on DVD, but I think 12" collectors can be thankful that Paramount
put the pressure on Hasbro to pull Sigma Six (if I remember Rudy's posting
from quite awhile back correctly) and produce the movie tie-ins in the
traditional sizes. Had Hasbro continued with their 8" size, I think 12" GI
Joe figures would be pretty much gone for good. The fact that Hasbro
produced some 12" figures (and some of them pretty expensive) as part of
their movie merchandise line holds out at least a faint glimmer of hope that
there might be a return someday of figures on toy aisle shelves that I might
want to buy.
Anyway, that's my take on things. I can't wait to see how it might/will be
shredded to pieces.
Bruce
Gun Shy
doing my hobby, and have said so for years if anyone actually bothers
to read what I write, and not "spin things", either from bits I did
write, or from some sense of Jedi Mind Tricks my critics seems to
think they possess in making something out of something I didn't
write, but what the hey. So, lets just sift our way back down through
this, shall we.
On Nov 7, 12:36 pm, Rudy Panucci <rudy...@suddenlink.net> wrote:
> Gun Shy wrote:
> > Razor / Razorblades still works,
>
> Where? Examples please. You can't just drop in a blunt statement like
> that with no support. This isn't cable news. We know what we're talking
> about here.
I stand by my statement, and I gave a perfect example, but I'll give
more. DiD has been releasing carded sets of items they packed into
released boxed figures, because people begged for duplicates of key
items to further support the boxed figure and other figures that
support that figure. Go on, go look at the DiD website, and see the
carded sets for yourself, and then look through the roster of boxed
sets those key items came from.
ITPT came out with carded sets of ACW stuff, and then you have
companies like Battle Gear, New Line Minitures, Toyz City, Hot Toys,
making all manner of Razorblades for hobbyists to use. Did you forget
about Cotswold and their items? DML made and still makes carded sets
of items, so does Twisting Toys, and one company just showed a new
head series they plan on selling in a 1/6 scale propane tank as the
means of storage. Even Sideshow makes razorblade sets to support their
figures, just look through the Star Wars and Indiana Jones sections,
and see what I mean. Expensive razorblades indeed, but there they are.
Who cares if razorblades aren't from big bad companies, I and many
others don't care, we just care about doing more and better with what
we got, and they can have all of our money instead. Add in "cottage"
companies like panzerwerks, Armorpax, makers of all manner of highly
detailed items for not just rides, but some special items for troops,
and see more razorblades.
Just because I don't have to go to TRUS or Wally World to get them, it
doesn't mean there aren't plenty of razorblades for hobbysits like me
to use.
>
> The toy market today is totally different from what it was when we were
> kids.
>
> but that isn't what the problem is.
>
> > The problem was / is that Hasbro couldn't or wouldn't draw a real line
> > between "kid's toys" and "Adult collector", let alone a finer line yet
> > for the "Adult Hobbyist".
>
> The collector's market never grew large enough for them to bother
> with.Instead of growing at a healthy pace, the adult collector group has
> shrunk and become more divided and specialized.
>
> Kid's toys are Hasbro's business. Always has been. The adult collectible
> was something they looked at as an additional revenue stream. It didn't
> pan out very well, due to a number of factors.
Basically, who cares. Granted, agreed, Hasbro is a Kid's Toys company,
but they blurred the lines when it suited them to do so. Charging big
ticket prices for items marketed as collectors' items, and then stated
they were just kid's toys when collectors started to complain about
issues with QC, overrall "value", and of course that increased when
people started to see what other companies were making and what they
were selling for. That's when people like me stopped being moon eyed
nostalgic collectors and went back to our real roots, Hobbyists. We
"play" war, we study history, we want to build our own stuf out of a
good base to work from, like we did with model kits. Like what Hasbro
themselves used to show in their own paperwork, of a kid and father
going down to build a war dio, like others did with train sets.
> > DML and others know that a hobbyist will buy accessories or special
> > items, nude figures, and other bits from dealers that will break them
> > out, and Monkey Depot did that long before OSD, but the concept is
> > proven. Lots of companies still put out carded sets, and they sell,
> > because they appeal to the hobbyist.
>
> They don't sell in numbers large enough to justify Hasbro's attention.
> The production run on the lamest GI Joe movie tie-in is greater than the
> entire production output of Dragon over the last five years.
Again, who cares. I'm happy, boards full of other people are happy, we
will be more than glad to spend our money where we are wanted. Read
above for the rest of my answers delaing with the rest of the related.
> It's the difference between big business and small business. Hasbro is
> big business. They operate on a scale so great that the cost of dealing
> with small hobby dealers is not justifiable to their bottom line.
>
> The best way for Hasbro to deal with the hobby market is to license the
> rights to GI Joe to entities like The Club, who can operate like a small
> business to cater to the small group of hobbyists out there.
>
> And that's what they're doing. The problem is that there are only so
> many of us, and only so many dollars to go around. The club took a huge
> hit while the Action Man 40th line was still going. It was a great line,
> but it pretty much sucked up all the available disposable income from
> the core groups of vntage-style 12" collectors.
>
> Now that the Action Man line has ended, we might see more from the club.
And again, who cares. "Brick and Mortar" as well as online Hobby shops
are full of products made by small companies, all happy to make their
living with the products Hobbyist buy. If "Hobbyists" and their
demands don't fit in with "collectors", then so be it. WE aren't tied
to one company. The sad thing, is if Hasbro would make some better
products, then Collectors and Hobbyists may both buy them. The Hasbro
Hummer was a good piece, as was the Mercury Capsule, the Harleys, yes
even the Jeeps, much so the last of the series. The M3 GMC is
workable, I have one and tricked it out, but it would have been better
if they went more to scale like 21st did with their M3 Scout Car, and
please, what a real shame the way out of scale M8 proved to be. Hasbro
even made a real "kit" out of that, as well as the pre-built versions,
and they could have a been a far more huge seller, if they just did it
right and not squibbed on the scale.
> > A lot of us real 60's child Joe heads will still pick up a Hasbro
> > repro 64 Joe because we still like them, but they best be cheap,
> > because most of us have long moved on to far better and more detailed,
> > and hence our money is aimed that way too.
>
> Uh..that's a little silly, Keith. The hobby is fragmented, but most of
> the folks who collected in the 60s perfer the nostalgia. The real growth
> in the ultra-detailed end of the market comes from the slightly-younger
> guys who got into the CC as an adult after having some contact with the
> AT guys or their older brother's Joes.
Again, who cares. I still like "Old Joe", but not enough to keep
buying 10,000+ Action Soldiers, with higher prices each time and items
going "up and down" on accuracy based on the original 60's piece. Some
items were better "repoped" in the MP, series, then done better or
worse in the TC line, and then again different on the 40th, the 45th,
and so it went. At least last year at $10 retail, I still smiled when
I bought a few old style Joes, just because Iiked it. Would have been
a "No Sale" any higher in price, and much so if they tried to sell
that stuff at the prices the real high grade "Hobbyist" stuff
commands. As for the question of who buys the high grade stuff, most
of my loace club is made up of Old Joe Collectors, followed by 21st
Collectors, and then the ranks bloom out of those not even alive in
the 60's in 70's, but got into history, saw what we do, and jumped in
with both feet. Most of those NEVER bought a CC figure, or a HOF,
period.
>
> And the high-end guys are pretty well-served by the companies that are
> already out there. If Hasbro made a play for that market, they'd be
> ridiculed by the "Dragon snob" types before any product was ever seen.
> And it's still a tiny market.
>
> When Hasbro does a nostalgic reissue, it's not aimed at us--it's to
> entice the nostalgic non-collector. Us hardocre collectors are the
> safety net---we'll make sure they sell out, but the idea is to snag some
> parents with nostalgia and try to create a cross-generational brand
> loyalty.
Read above in my other answers for areas already covered, but I don't
know of anyone in my club, who goes out and buys up anything GI Joe,
just so they keep making "Joes". No one under 40 in my group goes
weepy eye over "Old Joe", and I always loved Joe, but go with me, I
bought very few Joes in the 90's over warm thoughts of yesterday, and
once I got past the "collector" mindset and into the hobbyist mode,
I'm happier with Power Team figures for what they offer and what they
can let me do in my hobby.
> > A "collector" doesn't think the way a hobbyist does, and they both
> > don't have the same values a kid does. A Collector thinks about
> > getting "the whole set" of a series of figures, a hobbyist thinks
> > about getting a complete squad read to going into his latest diorama,
> > and a kid wants what he wants for now for whatever reason, then
> > something different minutes to hours later, maybe a day or two tops.
>
> Again, that's a pretty silly assertion, but I think I get your drift.
> Stated more clearly--a "collector" simply acquires and displays, while a
> "hobbyist" customizes and creates dioramas. Hobbyists play with their
> toys, while the collector is happy just to have them---if that's what
> you meant.
Thats a bit "backhanded", but its progress. You get it. Think "dare to
debox", and then go run with it. I bought a convention special
Schwimmer a year or so ago, for just about $327 shipped. The collector
in me would have opened it up just to see if all was okay, and maybe
bought another to never open up. The hobbyist in me said I need to get
that ride and make it better. About a year later, I finally laid down
my paint brush ( although as things spark me when they do, I go back
and make more corrections and such ). I was stunned when a DML Admin
ask me in a thread in a private DML forum I did all about tricking it
out, how much I thought the "value" of that Schwimmer was now after
all my work on it. The collector in me would have said "no where as
near as much if I kept it MIMB", but the hobbyist in me blushes when
people ask me if I will sell it, and suggest what they would pay for
it.
Here is a thread in a public forum about the whole process.
http://onesixthnet.yuku.com/topic/544/t/Achtung-Schwimmer-Boxer-Engine.html
I had fun working on it, love owning it, and will have more fun when
ready to put it into dio work.
> Which still doesn't address the main problem--that there aren't really
> enough of either group for Hasbro to be interested in dealing directly
> with them.
And again, I care why? I'll find love elsewhere, and do every day as I
go about my hobby.
> > Look at forums like the Sixth Division, Sixth Army Group, One Sixth
> > Warriors, Men with Dolls, and you won't find many people wanting to go
> > back to 1/6 as done in the 60's and 70's, save for the "Razor /
> > Razorblade" marketing practices. Hobbyists just don't "collect" or sit
> > around and wait for the next "hot item" to buy. They just get out and
> > do something with what they have, and plan on what to buy or make to
> > complete their projects later. To them it's not a simple race to buy
> > more, but to do more and do that at a much slower pace.
>
> Sounds like you're trying to put down collectors in favor of hobbyists.
> Still a bit silly.
More Jedi Mind tricks, not what I said at all. You basically said the
same thing yourself in your response to me in this thread now. Do what
you like, buy what you like, I don't care. Make what you want of it,
again I don't care. I don't have to explain it to the folks in those
forums, because they get it. If it gets people riled up to explain my
observations, let them skip on by and get a cold one from the fridge
or whatever else they need to get happy again.
Go look at the Sixth Brigade, and see how these guys get it done, and
trust me, you won't find them sighing over nothing new to buy in the
Joe aisle ...
http://sixthscaleamericanhistory.yuku.com/
> > Let me make it in terms based on reality. There is a world of
> > difference between buying a DML "Soldat" concept deluxe and complete
> > boxed figure set, and buying the 60's style Hasbro version of that
> > concept in the form of their "Footlocker set". I expect to buy a
> > "Footlocker set" for 1/2 to 1/3 the price of a Soldat set, if I was to
> > even consider one at all now. I won't consider paying $25 for a
> > simple shrink wrapped carded set of AF dress stuff ( coat, pants, hat,
> > shoes if Hasbro feels generous ) after having to buy other stuff just
> > to qualify to have that "privilege", when I can buy some really good
> > carded sets of museum quality stuff for that same money or less,
> > perhaps even a better quality "basic" figure complete with full
> > uniform and some desired single accessory included just about any time
> > I wish without any other entanglements.
>
>
> Uh..you seem to have a real anti-Hasbro chip your shoulder there, Keith.
And again you threw out the baby with the bathwater. I've told you and
others over and over, showed you and others online I buy Hasbro
products and have done so for years, and you get all unhappy when I
call things as I see them. Companies don't give me freebies ( not
since Kenner left Cincy ), fruit baskets at Christmas, buy me drinks
at press conferences, or seek my reviews in the media. I go to a store
like any other customer, pick what I want off the shelf, pay for it,
and go thought it at home and state what I see. The I use it in my
hobby.
But don't worry, DML cries up a storm when I review their items too.
Here once again, go read ...
http://onesixthnet.yuku.com/topic/505/t/DML-Kit-Kett-Arrives.html?page=1
>
> How about "live and let live?" Collect what you want, let other people
> collect what they want, and don't get all bent out of shape over it.
Yeah, and does that apply to offering up divergent views too? Read
above what I have repeated for years for the rest of it.
>
> The fact of the matter is, Hasbro surrendered control of the GI Joe line
> to Paramount this year--and Paramount gave it to the guy who spearheaded
> the toys based on The Transformers Movie. The Transformers toys did
> great because the guy was a fan as a kid, but also knew how to tailor
> his fondness for the line to today's market.
>
> He was also lucky. It's easier to sell toy cars than it is to sell toy
> action figures.
>
> He didn't know what he was doing with GI Joe, and it shows.
>
> Once Hasbro regains control of the line, we'll see if the heightened
> recognition from the movie pays off.
>
> For now, our best bet is to support the club if we want good vintage
> repro stuff. In a few years, when the kids who grew up on the Classic
> Collection hit the disposable income age, then we'll see a resurgence.
>
> Later, Rudy
Really don't care about much in that last bit, except to say I
wouldn't bet the farm on the CC stuff going "gold". In my area you are
lucky if you get back what you paid for it.
Later indeed folks.
Rudy Panucci
> Don't know why I bother, as I am just happy to "live and let live" in
> doing my hobby, and have said so for years if anyone actually bothers
> to read what I write, and not "spin things", either from bits I did
> write, or from some sense of Jedi Mind Tricks my critics seems to
> think they possess in making something out of something I didn't
> write, but what the hey. So, lets just sift our way back down through
> this, shall we.
Act like you don't care, then go to great lengths to respond. Typical,
Keith.
>
> On Nov 7, 12:36 pm, Rudy Panucci <rudy...@suddenlink.net> wrote:
>> Gun Shy wrote:
>>> Razor / Razorblades still works,
>> Where? Examples please. You can't just drop in a blunt statement like
>> that with no support. This isn't cable news. We know what we're talking
>> about here.
>
> I stand by my statement, and I gave a perfect example,
No, actually you didn't. You give examples of extremely
short--production, expensive sets, and try to extrapolate that into a
slam against Hasbro for not producing cheap sets in great numbers for
the mass market.
True, but it does mean that it's simply an expensive hobby. The only
difference between the companies you mention and the old-school
customizers from fifteen-to-twenty years ago is that there is a slightly
larger market for their stuff, and they have more sophisticated packaging.
When the "blades" cost more than fifty bucks, the whole "razors and
blades" concept is completely out the window.
And some of these sets are produced in very limited numbers, and still
don't sell out quickly. If a "blade" is produced in a number less than a
thousand, and costs more than the "razor" you're talking about an
entirely different business model for the hobby than the one we grew up
with.
>
>
> Basically, who cares.
Well, you wrote at length about it, even though your facts and
perceptions are off a bit.
Granted, agreed, Hasbro is a Kid's Toys company,
> but they blurred the lines when it suited them to do so.
And it didn't pan out, so they stopped.
Charging big
> ticket prices for items marketed as collectors' items, and then stated
> they were just kid's toys when collectors started to complain about
> issues with QC, overrall "value", and of course that increased when
> people started to see what other companies were making and what they
> were selling for. That's when people like me stopped being moon eyed
> nostalgic collectors and went back to our real roots, Hobbyists. We
> "play" war, we study history, we want to build our own stuf out of a
> good base to work from, like we did with model kits. Like what Hasbro
> themselves used to show in their own paperwork, of a kid and father
> going down to build a war dio, like others did with train sets.
You're missing the point. There are enough "hobbyists" like you for
Hasbro to bother with. They try to do something for you, and you bitch,
moan and whine about the quality, then flock to products from other
companies that cost five-to-ten times as much as the Hasbro product you
complained about.
>
>
> Again, who cares. I'm happy, boards full of other people are happy, we
> will be more than glad to spend our money where we are wanted. Read
> above for the rest of my answers delaing with the rest of the related.
>
Well, you care, otherwise you wouldn't put so much effort into backing
up your ridiculous spin. If all you really care about is spending your
money on what you like, why bother coming here and contributing your
skewed perspective to this thread? Obviously you care, and you seem to
be pretty bitter about it, given the tone of your posts.
>
> And again, who cares. "Brick and Mortar" as well as online Hobby shops
> are full of products made by small companies, all happy to make their
> living with the products Hobbyist buy.
And again, you care enough to ramble about it. Although I would love to
know which "brick and mortar" stores you're talking about. Even the few
hoppy shops that do carry high-end 1/6 scale sets will admit that it's
only a tiny part of their business. There are maybe four or five online
dealers who make a small amount of money parting out sets and selling
carded sets. That's four or five retailers--in the WHOLE WORLD!
It's not much of a hobby, size-wise.
If "Hobbyists" and their
> demands don't fit in with "collectors", then so be it. WE aren't tied
> to one company. The sad thing, is if Hasbro would make some better
> products, then Collectors and Hobbyists may both buy them. The Hasbro
> Hummer was a good piece, as was the Mercury Capsule, the Harleys, yes
> even the Jeeps, much so the last of the series. The M3 GMC is
> workable, I have one and tricked it out, but it would have been better
> if they went more to scale like 21st did with their M3 Scout Car, and
> please, what a real shame the way out of scale M8 proved to be. Hasbro
> even made a real "kit" out of that, as well as the pre-built versions,
> and they could have a been a far more huge seller, if they just did it
> right and not squibbed on the scale.
Hasbro lost assloads of money on the products you mentioned. 21C blew
through nearly a hundred million dollars of credit trying to cater to a
hobby market that never was big enough to support them. Some of the sets
you rave about are produced in such low numbers that they literally only
bother to assemble ten sets at a time.
Your assertions that Hasbro's efforts could ever have been "huge
sellers" are not based in reality.
>
> Again, who cares.
I do. You come here and spout bullshit, and when I call you on it, your
response is "who care."
Accountability, Keith. Back up what you say with facts.
I still like "Old Joe", but not enough to keep
> buying 10,000+ Action Soldiers, with higher prices each time and items
> going "up and down" on accuracy based on the original 60's piece. Some
> items were better "repoped" in the MP, series, then done better or
> worse in the TC line, and then again different on the 40th, the 45th,
> and so it went. At least last year at $10 retail, I still smiled when
> I bought a few old style Joes, just because Iiked it. Would have been
> a "No Sale" any higher in price, and much so if they tried to sell
> that stuff at the prices the real high grade "Hobbyist" stuff
> commands. As for the question of who buys the high grade stuff, most
> of my loace club is made up of Old Joe Collectors, followed by 21st
> Collectors, and then the ranks bloom out of those not even alive in
> the 60's in 70's, but got into history, saw what we do, and jumped in
> with both feet. Most of those NEVER bought a CC figure, or a HOF,
> period.
And how big is your local club? We have a local train society. It's a
small one. 500 members. The market in this area can support two hobby
stores that carry train lines, but they both have to sell craft supplies
to pay the bills.
And none of your club members ever bought a CC figure? Really? Must be a
small club.
> Read above in my other answers for areas already covered, but I don't
> know of anyone in my club, who goes out and buys up anything GI Joe,
> just so they keep making "Joes". No one under 40 in my group goes
> weepy eye over "Old Joe", and I always loved Joe, but go with me, I
> bought very few Joes in the 90's over warm thoughts of yesterday, and
> once I got past the "collector" mindset and into the hobbyist mode,
> I'm happier with Power Team figures for what they offer and what they
> can let me do in my hobby.
Once again, you're being irrelevant and pointless, Keith. I get the
feeling that your club may not be a typical collection of hobbyists.
Just a guess, but I'm betting there are a few collectors in your area
that don't necessarily associate with you. For you to attempt to speak
for the "hobbyists"....I don't buy it.
>
> Thats a bit "backhanded", but its progress. You get it.
I always got it. I just had to take your statements and strip them of
your delusions of grandeur and your superiority complex. There are
plenty of guys like you--many more talented, in fact--who produced
really cool customs based on deboxed items. But they don't feel the need
to bash collectors who have other criteria. The hobby is tiny enough
that we can't really afford to fight amongst ourselves.
>
> And again, I care why?
I don't know, but you're awfully damned wordy about it, so you must care
a lot.
>
> More Jedi Mind tricks, not what I said at all. You basically said the
> same thing yourself in your response to me in this thread now. Do what
> you like, buy what you like, I don't care. Make what you want of it,
> again I don't care. I don't have to explain it to the folks in those
> forums, because they get it. If it gets people riled up to explain my
> observations, let them skip on by and get a cold one from the fridge
> or whatever else they need to get happy again.
So you don[t care, but you come here, make tons of unsupported claims,
then imply that people in other forums "get it" but we don't. I'm not
the one trying to pull "Jedi mind tricks" here, Keith. You seem to want
to fling mud,then complain about the mudslining.
>
> And again you threw out the baby with the bathwater. I've told you and
> others over and over, showed you and others online I buy Hasbro
> products and have done so for years, and you get all unhappy when I
> call things as I see them.
That's because you see them wrong, and won't listen when you are corrected.
Companies don't give me freebies ( not
> since Kenner left Cincy ), fruit baskets at Christmas, buy me drinks
> at press conferences, or seek my reviews in the media.
Ooooh. Now I see why you have such an anti-Hasbro chip on your
shoulder.If it makes you feel better, the only freebies I get now come
from the guys you slobber all over. The last Hasbro package I got was
tons of Sigma Six stuff.
I go to a store
> like any other customer, pick what I want off the shelf, pay for it,
> and go thought it at home and state what I see. The I use it in my
> hobby.
>
> But don't worry, DML cries up a storm when I review their items too.
You write reviews, too? Didn't know that. Explains a bit more of the chip.
> Yeah, and does that apply to offering up divergent views too? Read
> above what I have repeated for years for the rest of it.
Divergent views are fine, when supported by facts. Let me know if you
ever do that.
>
> Really don't care about much in that last bit, except to say I
> wouldn't bet the farm on the CC stuff going "gold". In my area you are
> lucky if you get back what you paid for it.
>
I didn't say a thing about it going "gold." I said that the kids who
grew up playing with CC Joes will want to share that with their own kids
somday--and that day is coming soon. You seem to fail to see that your
whole hobby--the 21C-Dragon-DiD legacy--was built on the mid-90s revival
of the ME Joes and the Classic Collection. Without those two lines
nobody would have put any money into the 1/6 hobby.
Later, Rudy
Gun Shy
Classic Jedi Mind Trick, which explains why I won't bother much if at
all with you in the future.
Here is one thing I said ...
"As for the question of who buys the high grade stuff, most
> of my loace { I meant local, fingers slipped } club is made up of Old Joe Collectors, followed by 21st
> Collectors, and then the ranks bloom out of those not even alive in
> the 60's in 70's, but got into history, saw what we do, and jumped in
> with both feet. Most of those NEVER bought a CC figure, or a HOF,
> period."
..... and you turned that into this.
"And none of your club members ever bought a CC figure? Really? Must
be a
small club."
MOST isn't NONE Rudy.
Can't talk to a man that doesn't read what is simply written, but
rather chooses to rewrite as he sees fit, for whatever reason.
And Rudy, I never said I was the greatest talent out there, indeed
many are far better than me, and I admire and aspire to do better
because of them. When some of those people praise my work, I blush,
and when people suggest they would like to buy some of my work, I
blush more.
Here is a perfect example of another hobbyist, who makes me get my
stuff back out and work it up better, and if you took the time to read
my thread about my ride, you would see I pointed people to his work.
He finished his much later, and his piece is fantastic, again making
me wish to get mine back out and improve on it.
My point about bringing up my reviews, is whether it be Hasbro or DML,
they all whine when people pointing out their mistakes, and trust me,
I'm not alone in learning in practice firsthand about that aspect
either. Proof be damned, they all don't want to hear it, but a large
number of collectors and hobbyists do.
So, in the future Rudy, if I choose to post in this or any other
forum, and you just can't resist banging away at the keyboard about
whatever comes to you about what I write, bang away, because I won't
be bothering with you, as I already "know the script".
Lastly, heres a big tip of the steel pot to guys like Mark of Patches
of Pride, a small maker among a good rank of others like him, making
lots of razorblades to trick out your razor regardless of what you
paid for it. Thanks for being a class act both as a person, and as a
business.
Gun Shy
example I clearly stated too, and see these razorblades, be sure to
check them ALL out, and then go to your local 1/6 dealer who may carry
these, and then see if these all cost more than the "razor" they were
made for, that is in terms of, "here is what a boxed figure from this
company costs, and here is the support gear they offer then too."
Rudy Panucci
> Here is the perfect example of what I was talking about Rudy, the
> Classic Jedi Mind Trick, which explains why I won't bother much if at
> all with you in the future.
I wish you wou8ld learn your lesson and go away already. I use that evil
"Jedi mind trick"...the truth.
>
> Here is one thing I said ...
>
> "As for the question of who buys the high grade stuff, most
>> of my loace { I meant local, fingers slipped } club is made up of Old Joe Collectors, followed by 21st
>> Collectors, and then the ranks bloom out of those not even alive in
>> the 60's in 70's, but got into history, saw what we do, and jumped in
>> with both feet. Most of those NEVER bought a CC figure, or a HOF,
>> period."
>
> ..... and you turned that into this.
>
> "And none of your club members ever bought a CC figure? Really? Must
> be a
> small club."
>
> MOST isn't NONE Rudy.
"Most" is "most" and "never" means "never," Keith. You say that most of
your "club members" "never" bought a CC Joe, even though they were state
of the art for a couple of years there.
>
> Can't talk to a man that doesn't read what is simply written, but
> rather chooses to rewrite as he sees fit, for whatever reason.
And tha'ts why you make up total fiction and attribute it to me in
another thread?
>
> And Rudy, I never said I was the greatest talent out there,
Neither did aynbody else! :-)
.
> My point about bringing up my reviews, is whether it be Hasbro or DML,
> they all whine when people pointing out their mistakes, and trust me,
> I'm not alone in learning in practice firsthand about that aspect
> either. Proof be damned, they all don't want to hear it, but a large
> number of collectors and hobbyists do.
Keith--there aren't "large numbers of collectors or hobbyists."
>
> So, in the future Rudy, if I choose to post in this or any other
> forum, and you just can't resist banging away at the keyboard about
> whatever comes to you about what I write, bang away, because I won't
> be bothering with you, as I already "know the script".
How many freaking times are you gonna sing that song and dance that
dance? You do this every time I shoot down your nonsense with the truth.
>
> Lastly, heres a big tip of the steel pot to guys like Mark of Patches
> of Pride, a small maker among a good rank of others like him, making
> lots of razorblades to trick out your razor regardless of what you
> paid for it. Thanks for being a class act both as a person, and as a
> business.
>
Mark's a great guy, but he's hardly a major player in the business end
of the hobby. I think Mark himself would admit that he does what he does
as a labor of love--not as a full-time gig.
And unlike some people, he's a positive force in the hobby. He doesn't
just use the Sandbox to try and put down segments of the hobby and then
plug obscure forums where he's a moderator.
I could go on, but it wouldn't be right to drag Mark into this thread.
He's too nice a guy.
Later, Rudy
Rudy Panucci
> Oh, one more thing, be sure to check out the DiD products as one
> example I clearly stated too, and see these razorblades, be sure to
> check them ALL out, and then go to your local 1/6 dealer who may carry
> these, and then see if these all cost more than the "razor" they were
> made for, that is in terms of, "here is what a boxed figure from this
> company costs, and here is the support gear they offer then too."
Keith--
Like most people in the country, I do not have a local dealer who
carries DiD figures. You're lucky enough to live near one, evidently,
but for most of us, DiD is strictly a mail-order company.
Again, not a sign that the hobby is thriving. Things are tough all over.
Later, Rudy
thefatbasturd
>
> - Show quoted text -
While you are making some good points Rudy, your Jedi mind trick
"truth" on some of the points really IS spinning what he is saying the
same way he is spinning you. There IS a difference in "most never
bought" and "ALL never bought" which is what you seemed to claim he
said earlier. Face it, you guys are just in a pissing contest and
some of what you are arguing about is really just a matter of opinion
or perspective. What YOU consider a "large number" of collectors or
hobbyists may not be the same as what someone else does. If you
counted up all the collectors and hobbyists and printed it, it would
be what many people would call a "large" number. Put in context with
the number of KIDS buying the toys, yeah it is a LOT smaller I'm
sure. And, to be fair, when he said 'a large number of collectors and
hobbyists" it was more in the sense of "a large PERCENTAGE of
collectors and hobbyists" however big or small the total number is.
Doesn't make either one of you "right" or "a liar".
It also doesn't mean either one of you is calling the other a liar if
they don't believe 100% in a statement from DML, Hasbro, 20th Century
or any company, that the other accepts as irrefutable fact. Truth is
ALL companies, toy makers and others, are going to spin any decision
they make as being THE right decision, even when the public can
clearly see it going down the tubes. Look at NBCs press releases on
the failing Leno experiment for proof of that. I agree with you 100%
that a large company like Hasbro can't afford to do the same things
that smaller companies can. I also sometimes wonder if Hasbro's
abandoning of the razor blade/razor concept came about because it
"wasn't profitable" or because it "wasn't AS profitable" as the
alternative. Doesn't matter. In the long run their job is to make
money and ANY company is going to do that in the way that makes them
the most money the fastest and easiest way they can. Nothing really
wrong with that. You are right, they are better off farming out the
more "collectible" products to other companies.
Thing is, there are a lot of people (again, I'm talking percentage)
who love Hasbro, support Hasbro and continue to buy a shitload of
Hasbro product, that WON"T however, act like Hasbro can do no wrong
any more than they will for the US no matter how much they love it. I
think there may be a bit of a love/hate feeling both from the
collectors and some of the Hasbro execs. When the Target Duke came
out and was such a success, Hasbro saw a market that no one was taking
advantage of. They embraced the collectors and things were great and
just got better and better. Eventually though, other makers got in
the game too, and for EXACTLY the reasons you stated were able to do
some things Hasbro couldn't. So as the collectors began to drift to
other companies, Hasbro naturally began to do less and less that was
marketed for the collectors. The end result being some on both sides
probably felt the other had "abandoned" them, when of course the truth
is that each side was just following the course that was best for
them.
Rudy Panucci
> While you are making some good points Rudy, your Jedi mind trick
> "truth" on some of the points really IS spinning what he is saying the
> same way he is spinning you. There IS a difference in "most never
> bought" and "ALL never bought" which is what you seemed to claim he
> said earlier.
That's a fair point. I find it funny that Keith accused me of "Jedi Mind
Tricks" when he's employing the classic tactic of misdirection, arguing
the semantics between "most" and "none" to cover up that his original
statement was hyperbolic and highly unlikely.
I got sloppy because Keith Davis is not really worth my time. Hence all
the typos. :-)
Face it, you guys are just in a pissing contest and
> some of what you are arguing about is really just a matter of opinion
> or perspective. What YOU consider a "large number" of collectors or
> hobbyists may not be the same as what someone else does. If you
> counted up all the collectors and hobbyists and printed it, it would
> be what many people would call a "large" number. Put in context with
> the number of KIDS buying the toys, yeah it is a LOT smaller I'm
> sure. And, to be fair, when he said 'a large number of collectors and
> hobbyists" it was more in the sense of "a large PERCENTAGE of
> collectors and hobbyists" however big or small the total number is.
> Doesn't make either one of you "right" or "a liar".
Yes, but Keith is one of those guys who has to portray himself as a
leading figure of a vast movement in order to feel better about himself.
My way of dealing with the petty tyrant type is to resort to ridicule.
Too easy when it comes to Keith, but I don't like to see misinfomation
spread in a wounded hobby, either.
I don't have a dog in the fight. I'm hardly a Hasbro loyalist. I just
think that bashing Kia because they don't make a Cadillac is
intellectually dishonest.
The fact is, there are maybe two thousand die-hard customizers in the
world. I'm talking about people who put hundreds of man-hours into
completing museum-auality dioramas. There might be another couple of
thousand hobbyists who participate in a lesser fashion, doing maybe one
or two large projects a year.
Keith was singing his same old song-and-dance bashing Hasbro the same
way he has for years. To do this, he exaggerates the number of "his
people" and compares apples to oranges. In his world, Hasbro is passing
up millions of dollars that they could make if they only did things
exactly the way he says, without any concern for the realities of the
marketplace.
>
> It also doesn't mean either one of you is calling the other a liar if
> they don't believe 100% in a statement from DML, Hasbro, 20th Century
> or any company, that the other accepts as irrefutable fact. Truth is
> ALL companies, toy makers and others, are going to spin any decision
> they make as being THE right decision, even when the public can
> clearly see it going down the tubes. Look at NBCs press releases on
> the failing Leno experiment for proof of that. I agree with you 100%
> that a large company like Hasbro can't afford to do the same things
> that smaller companies can. I also sometimes wonder if Hasbro's
> abandoning of the razor blade/razor concept came about because it
> "wasn't profitable" or because it "wasn't AS profitable" as the
> alternative.
I can tell you--and this is not spin--the razors/blades concept is dead
at the mass market, and has been for some time. The toy companies are
not happy about this because it shuts off a nice ancilliary revenue
stream, but retailers are resistant to the idea. When Hasbro has made
inroads in recent years it's been because they begged the retailers to
give it another try. I'm not relying on company spin--this comes from
years of reporting on the hobby and doing market analysis.
There was one major fluke with razor/blade conceot. Around 2000,
Formative International sold their uniform sets at a rate about 80% of
what they were selling figures at Target (this was before they
upgraded--when they upped the quality, the sales dropped). Nobody could
figure out why this happened, but it probably had a lot to do with
people buying the cheaper uniforms and putting them on Classic
Collection figures. It was also only at Target--never translated into
similar sales at other retailers.
21C thought they could make it selling primarily uniform sets, but they
bowed to pressure from TRU and put most of their efforts into boxed sets.
For Keith to mention Dragon and DiD is just plain silly. They are not
and have been mass-market 1/6 manufacturers. They serve a very tiny,
specialized market.
Sideshow escaped the 1/6 ghetto by avoiding military themes (with a few
exceptions) and focusing on pop culture and movie properties. And
Sideshow sells way more figures than Dragon.
Doesn't matter. In the long run their job is to make
> money and ANY company is going to do that in the way that makes them
> the most money the fastest and easiest way they can. Nothing really
> wrong with that. You are right, they are better off farming out the
> more "collectible" products to other companies.
>
> Thing is, there are a lot of people (again, I'm talking percentage)
> who love Hasbro, support Hasbro and continue to buy a shitload of
> Hasbro product, that WON"T however, act like Hasbro can do no wrong
> any more than they will for the US no matter how much they love it. I
> think there may be a bit of a love/hate feeling both from the
> collectors and some of the Hasbro execs. When the Target Duke came
> out and was such a success, Hasbro saw a market that no one was taking
> advantage of. They embraced the collectors and things were great and
> just got better and better. Eventually though, other makers got in
> the game too, and for EXACTLY the reasons you stated were able to do
> some things Hasbro couldn't. So as the collectors began to drift to
> other companies, Hasbro naturally began to do less and less that was
> marketed for the collectors. The end result being some on both sides
> probably felt the other had "abandoned" them, when of course the truth
> is that each side was just following the course that was best for
> them.
Astute observations. That Love/Hate thing goes both ways. Hasbro can't
figure out why they could sell 150,000 Target Dukes, and more than half
a million 30th anniversary GI Joe figures in the early 1990s, but they
had trouble selling a fraction of those numbers when they released
higher-quality figures or more accurate reproductions.
The collector's market got saturated very quickly. A lot of people who
were Joe-heads as kids are perfectly content to have a single 12"
sitting on their shelf. The number of those of us who are still
obsessive about the hobby is really small. Some of these high-end sets
are produced in numbers less than a thousand, and still take years to
sell out.
But the pissing contest aspect of this thread--sadly that's the only
thing you can do with Keith when he sees fit to go off on one of his
infamous anti-Hasbro tangents.
Later, Rudy
Jackel
Rudy,
You make very interesting observations, and I surely don't mind
reading your pissing contests. But I think that the FB's point can be
boiled down to this "why waste hot lather shaving an ass?"
Jackel, ITFC 00018
Rudy Panucci
> Rudy,
>
> You make very interesting observations, and I surely don't mind
> reading your pissing contests. But I think that the FB's point can be
> boiled down to this "why waste hot lather shaving an ass?"
>
> Jackel, ITFC 00018
I got all this lather sitting around anyway. :-)
Later, Rudy
Gun Shy
you.
> I wish you wou8ld learn your lesson and go away already. I use that evil
> "Jedi mind trick"...the truth.
Let's just see how truthful you are in this rant alone.
About this bit ....
I said ..
> > Here is one thing I said ...
>
> > "As for the question of who buys the high grade stuff, most
> >> of my loace { I meant local, fingers slipped } club is made up of Old Joe Collectors, followed by 21st
> >> Collectors, and then the ranks bloom out of those not even alive in
> >> the 60's in 70's, but got into history, saw what we do, and jumped in
> >> with both feet. Most of those NEVER bought a CC figure, or a HOF,
> >> period."
>
> > ..... and you turned that into this.
>
> > "And none of your club members ever bought a CC figure? Really? Must
> > be a
> > small club."
>
> > MOST isn't NONE Rudy.
You say ...
> "Most" is "most" and "never" means "never," Keith. You say that most of
> your "club members" "never" bought a CC Joe, even though they were state
> of the art for a couple of years there.
Right, just as I said. One man a retired Captain of Infantry, in his
70's, NEVER bought ANY Hasbro product when he joined our club, In
fact, he was into other scales of models, was invited by a friend to
come to one of our meetings, got hooked on 1/6, and now is the current
President of our club.
On the other end of the age spectrum, a 16 year old kid from England
living here, got into the hobby because of 21st. Got more into things
with DML. Found out about ur club, and joined up.
There were only 13 of us that started the OVD chapter of the national
club back in the day, and clearly we collected Joe from Vintage on,
but many more than joined after that didn't buy Hasbro, and joined
after 21st got in the game, more after DML, and so it went. May not be
the way the rest of the world is, but that is how things went for us.
I say ..
> > Can't talk to a man that doesn't read what is simply written, but
> > rather chooses to rewrite as he sees fit, for whatever reason.
You say ...
>
> And tha'ts why you make up total fiction and attribute it to me in
> another thread?
I'd ask for you to be more specific, but I'm not going to wait around
for your answer here. I'll just wing it. There was a post made some
time back in another forum where people made clear how they liked
using my real name out in public, just as you are right here, as they
used it as a tool of somehow trying to get at me, because of the way
they described I would react to that. I NEVER ever told you my real
name, not have I ever posted online since the very early days of my
being on the web, and I have NEVER ever posted that in this forum from
day one. Someone I figure told you, perhaps some of those same people
I've had "go rounds" with in the past. I respect people's right to
privacy, you don't. You don't use my name here because you like me,
you do it for because you figure it's another tool for you to get at
me.
> > And Rudy, I never said I was the greatest talent out there,
>
> Neither did aynbody else! :-)
Really, that all you can think of to say? Trust me though, some think
my work is nice, and I blush when high level customizers praise some
of my work, as I respect their work and know the calibre of it. They
make parts other people buy and use, and I am stunned when they take
note of my homemade efforts.
Tell me, when do we get to see some of your 1/6 work, besides videos?
I said ....
> > My point about bringing up my reviews, is whether it be Hasbro or DML,
> > they all whine when people pointing out their mistakes, and trust me,
> > I'm not alone in learning in practice firsthand about that aspect
> > either. Proof be damned, they all don't want to hear it, but a large
> > number of collectors and hobbyists do.
You say ...
>
> Keith--there aren't "large numbers of collectors or hobbyists."
Out of context Rudy. What I was saying, is out of the numbers of
collectors and hobbyist I see out on the boards every day, large
numbers of THEM want to see independent reviews, reviews of the
products out there, before they buy them, and they don't want to just
read more "corporate copy", press releases, or sales hype. Plenty of
people post their findings online, some forums even archive those
reviews in special sections for further and future reference.
I said ...
> > So, in the future Rudy, if I choose to post in this or any other
> > forum, and you just can't resist banging away at the keyboard about
> > whatever comes to you about what I write, bang away, because I won't
> > be bothering with you, as I already "know the script".
And you come back with ...
> How many freaking times are you gonna sing that song and dance that
> dance? You do this every time I shoot down your nonsense with the truth.
No, I get tired of being in a thread where you jump in, not to debate
the ISSUE, but rather go off on me personally. I've caught you wrong
plenty of times, and others have too, but I can't recall leting fly
the way you do on a personal level. I'll pick this up soon below.
I said ...
> > Lastly, heres a big tip of the steel pot to guys like Mark of Patches
> > of Pride, a small maker among a good rank of others like him, making
> > lots of razorblades to trick out your razor regardless of what you
> > paid for it. Thanks for being a class act both as a person, and as a
> > business.
You say ...
>
> Mark's a great guy, but he's hardly a major player in the business end
> of the hobby. I think Mark himself would admit that he does what he does
> as a labor of love--not as a full-time gig.
I'd rather hear from Mark directly about why he does what he does, but
after dealing with him I bet I could take a pretty good shot at why he
does what he does. First off, clearly Patches of Pride IS a BUSINESS.
They SELL products. He also created a great site all dedicated to
people who are both collectors, and hobbyists. That he does because he
loves the hobby. Big or small, his BUSINESS is a player, along with
others like his, and if that doesn't interest you or Hasbro, who
cares. His business and others like his will be more than glad to
collect our money when we buy from him.
You say ...
>
> And unlike some people, he's a positive force in the hobby. He doesn't
> just use the Sandbox to try and put down segments of the hobby and then
> plug obscure forums where he's a moderator.
I say ..
OH Please!! He is a positive force in the hobby, and he thinks my club
is too, or else he wouldn't have called out in this forum sometime
back for me send him information about our club, and pictures to post
of our work.
I can't recall when I ever put down anyone else because of how they
want to go about their hobby. In fact, I believe I have often said "Do
what makes you happy". I do go after companies about sloppy products
and policies. I try to explain how there are other ways to increase
your joy in the hobby by trying different things, but you are going to
have to produce some solid proof about me putting down other segments
of the hobby.
And about me coming here to just "plug obscure forums" ...
Are you for real!!?? How many times do we see you only come here to
plug your latest video or some other such?!! And the Sixth Division,
One Sixth Warriors, Men with Dolls, the Sixth Brigade, SAG, and others
I could list too, are NOT obscure forums in this hobby. People all
around the world go to these forums every day. Do a "Google" on them,
and see how many times they come up.
OH, and I am NOT a Moderator or Admin on any of them. I was once up
for consideration for the Sixth Division, but a whisper campaign
behind the scenes, including some of the same people who like to take
jabs at me, with, for one example, little grab ass games like
splashing my real name around online, did all they could to stop that.
They succeded, but not in the fashion they thought they had. The owner
of the forum contacted me about this, and I withdrew, suggesting
instead others be considered, and they were taken instead. I remain
and will always remain an "Irregular" of the forum, and that suits me
just fine.
>
> I could go on, but it wouldn't be right to drag Mark into this thread.
> He's too nice a guy.
>
> Later, Rudy- Hide quoted text -
Yeah, you're a real peacemaker. I could go on about some of your "best
work", much so after the last really big dust up in this forum that
you helped heat up. Instead, let's jump to this bit from you ..
Out of your own mouth do I judge you ..
"Yes, but Keith is one of those guys who has to portray himself as a
leading figure of a vast movement in order to feel better about
himself.
My way of dealing with the petty tyrant type is to resort to
ridicule.
Too easy when it comes to Keith, but I don't like to see
misinfomation
spread in a wounded hobby, either."
And I say ...
Where is your proof? Oh but you don't need proof, just "resort to
ridicule". My local club is totally democratic, and I stepped down as
leader after a year of so being its founder, and called for election
of new officers. What I say often does reflect what others are
thinking, as in the case of 2 visitors to our latest show from another
chapter of the national club, and I found what they had to say most
interesting.
You got nothing but hate Rudy, which taints most of what else you do.
You and others like you are why so many of those other "obscure"
forums exist.
Hey folks, go check out the pictures and videos of our latest show,
and see what you think ...
Rudy Panucci
> Last time I'm going to deal with you, after this I'm through with
> you.
>
>> I wish you wou8ld learn your lesson and go away already. I use that evil
>> "Jedi mind trick"...the truth.
>
>
> Let's just see how truthful you are in this rant alone.
I was more truthful that when you said that was the last time you were
going to deal with me, then you can't resist the urge to try and stir up
crap again.
>
>
> Right, just as I said. One man a retired Captain of Infantry, in his
> 70's, NEVER bought ANY Hasbro product when he joined our club, In
> fact, he was into other scales of models, was invited by a friend to
> come to one of our meetings, got hooked on 1/6, and now is the current
> President of our club.
>
> On the other end of the age spectrum, a 16 year old kid from England
> living here, got into the hobby because of 21st. Got more into things
> with DML. Found out about ur club, and joined up.
>
> There were only 13 of us that started the OVD chapter of the national
> club back in the day, and clearly we collected Joe from Vintage on,
> but many more than joined after that didn't buy Hasbro, and joined
> after 21st got in the game, more after DML, and so it went. May not be
> the way the rest of the world is, but that is how things went for us.\
Again, what you say is totally irrelevant and pointless. If there were
only 13 members of your club, then you can hardly claim that it's a
representaive sample. You're arguing semantics. Not very well, either.
>
> I say ..
>
>>> Can't talk to a man that doesn't read what is simply written, but
>>> rather chooses to rewrite as he sees fit, for whatever reason.
>
> You say ...
>> And tha'ts why you make up total fiction and attribute it to me in
>> another thread?
>
> I'd ask for you to be more specific, but I'm not going to wait around
> for your answer here. I'll just wing it. There was a post made some
> time back in another forum where people made clear how they liked
> using my real name out in public, just as you are right here, as they
> used it as a tool of somehow trying to get at me, because of the way
> they described I would react to that. I NEVER ever told you my real
> name, not have I ever posted online since the very early days of my
> being on the web, and I have NEVER ever posted that in this forum from
> day one. Someone I figure told you, perhaps some of those same people
> I've had "go rounds" with in the past. I respect people's right to
> privacy, you don't. You don't use my name here because you like me,
> you do it for because you figure it's another tool for you to get at
> me.
I do it because your histrionic, pissy reactions amuse me. You are a
clown and a puppet to me. Whenever you respond, you have fallen into my
trap.
You have done nothing to earn my respect. You post misinformation and
folow a rather silly anti-Hasbro agenda. I'm not even a huge Hasbro
defender, but I hate to see people spreading nonsense. When you post
something silly here, I will ridicule it and use your real name as often
as possible.
You post something nice and non-controversial, like your links to that
nice little Veteran's Day gathering, I see no reason to comment.
Is that clear enough for you, Keith?
>
>
>>> And Rudy, I never said I was the greatest talent out there,
>> Neither did aynbody else! :-)
>
> Really, that all you can think of to say? Trust me though, some think
> my work is nice, and I blush when high level customizers praise some
> of my work, as I respect their work and know the calibre of it. They
> make parts other people buy and use, and I am stunned when they take
> note of my homemade efforts.
Hey, I think some of your work is very nice. I wish you'd spend more
time on it, instead of coming here and posting nonsense.
>
> Tell me, when do we get to see some of your 1/6 work, besides videos?
When my life calms down enough that I have time to create more. I'm a
freelance writer, videographer, director and toy consultant. For the
last three weeks I've been spending 50+ hours a week at the hospital
helping my WWII Veteran uncle recover from a broken shoulder and
subsequent joint replacement surgery. I've also produced two episodes of
my local music show--including a half-hour Halloween Special. I am in
the middle of writing a magazine article on "Lost" and I've got six
pieces of art to frame for an exhibit opening next week.
So I've been a little busy.
>
> You say ...
>> Keith--there aren't "large numbers of collectors or hobbyists."
>
> Out of context Rudy.
No, it was perfectly within context. You have chosen to provide
additional context below, but I could not comment on what you had not
yet written.
What I was saying, is out of the numbers of
> collectors and hobbyist I see out on the boards every day, large
> numbers of THEM want to see independent reviews, reviews of the
> products out there, before they buy them, and they don't want to just
> read more "corporate copy", press releases, or sales hype. Plenty of
> people post their findings online, some forums even archive those
> reviews in special sections for further and future reference.
So you mean "large numbers" out of what you personally read? How the
hell am I supposed to know that's what you meant? You're arguing in
temporal anomolies, Keith.
>
> I said ...
>
>>> So, in the future Rudy, if I choose to post in this or any other
>>> forum, and you just can't resist banging away at the keyboard about
>>> whatever comes to you about what I write, bang away, because I won't
>>> be bothering with you, as I already "know the script".
>
> And you come back with ...
>
>
>> How many freaking times are you gonna sing that song and dance that
>> dance? You do this every time I shoot down your nonsense with the truth.
>
> No, I get tired of being in a thread where you jump in, not to debate
> the ISSUE, but rather go off on me personally. I've caught you wrong
> plenty of times, and others have too, but I can't recall leting fly
> the way you do on a personal level. I'll pick this up soon below.
1) Your example once again shows your hypocrisy.
2) The closest you've come to "showing me wrong" was arguing semantics
over "most" and "none," which is such a piddling, tiny point that you
can count that, if you have nothing else.
3) You're the one who jumped into this thread, not to debate the issues,
but to spew forth innacurate bile that had no bearing on reality. You
let fly, I merely corrected you.
>
> I said ...
>
>
>>> Lastly, heres a big tip of the steel pot to guys like Mark of Patches
>>> of Pride, a small maker among a good rank of others like him, making
>>> lots of razorblades to trick out your razor regardless of what you
>>> paid for it. Thanks for being a class act both as a person, and as a
>>> business.
>
> You say ...
>> Mark's a great guy, but he's hardly a major player in the business end
>> of the hobby. I think Mark himself would admit that he does what he does
>> as a labor of love--not as a full-time gig.
>
> I'd rather hear from Mark directly about why he does what he does, but
> after dealing with him I bet I could take a pretty good shot at why he
> does what he does.
So you'd rather hear from Mark directly, but you're still willing to
speak on his behalf?
Keith, you're so full of rhetorical shit. That's yet another prime
example of you claiming to be above doing something, then going right
ahead and doing it anyway.
>
> I can't recall when I ever put down anyone else because of how they
> want to go about their hobby. In fact, I believe I have often said "Do
> what makes you happy".
After you trash and ridicule other people for not agreeing with you.
It's the arrogance and holier-than-thou attitude that's earned you the
reputation you have in the hobby.
I realize that in some circles of this hobby, I am considered a
shit-stirrer. You, however, are considered shit.
>
> And about me coming here to just "plug obscure forums" ...
>
> Are you for real!!?? How many times do we see you only come here to
> plug your latest video or some other such?!!
Not much, lately. I'll have to rectify that per your request.
But my show is not an obscure, competing forum. It's an off-topic music
video show. And nobody would mind you plugging your forum here, if you
do it in a way that isn/t a slam against this forum. Your recent post
about the Veteran's Day show was rather civil in that regard. You seem
to be growing up a bit.
And the Sixth Division,
> One Sixth Warriors, Men with Dolls, the Sixth Brigade, SAG, and others
> I could list too, are NOT obscure forums in this hobby. People all
> around the world go to these forums every day. Do a "Google" on them,
> and see how many times they come up.
>
> OH, and I am NOT a Moderator or Admin on any of them. I was once up
> for consideration for the Sixth Division, but a whisper campaign
> behind the scenes, including some of the same people who like to take
> jabs at me, with, for one example, little grab ass games like
> splashing my real name around online, did all they could to stop that.
> They succeded, but not in the fashion they thought they had. The owner
> of the forum contacted me about this, and I withdrew, suggesting
> instead others be considered, and they were taken instead. I remain
> and will always remain an "Irregular" of the forum, and that suits me
> just fine.
Yes, Keith. We're all out to get you. It doesn't have anything at all
with karma, or your actions and behavior having actual repurcussions.
>
> Yeah, you're a real peacemaker. I could go on about some of your "best
> work", much so after the last really big dust up in this forum that
> you helped heat up. Instead, let's jump to this bit from you ..
Example, please? I think I did earn the title "peacemaker," recently.
>
> And I say ...
>
> Where is your proof?
Where are your defenders? I'm guessing you couldn't persuade anyone to
come here and post about what a great guy you are, so after a week of
stewing you couldn't resist the urge to reply, even after you posted
your "I'm done with you" message.
Right?
Oh but you don't need proof, just "resort to
> ridicule".
Only when it's called for, Keith.
>
> You got nothing but hate Rudy, which taints most of what else you do.
Yeah, I have people coming up to me every day telling me that I'm a
saint, a guardian angel, a patron of the arts, an inspiration, a
muse...I could go on. It's a good thing I have wannabe anonymous
detractors like Keith Davis to tell me what a rotten human being I am.
Glad I can give your life so much meaning, Keith.
> You and others like you are why so many of those other "obscure"
> forums exist.
>
If you mean people were driven to start their own forums because they
wanted to spew horseshit without being called on it, well, I don't think
you're being fair to the specialized forums.
Later, Rudy
thefatbasturd
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Hey, if I reluctatly agree to put on the rubber gloves and hold the
ruler can we FINALLY put an end to this grade school bullshit?
Shawn
Rudy Panucci
> Hey, if I reluctatly agree to put on the rubber gloves and hold the
> ruler can we FINALLY put an end to this grade school bullshit?
>
It's like this, Shawn. I admitted a long time ago that this has devolved
into a pissing contest between Keith Davis and me. Here's the situation:
I have nearly super-human bladder control powers. This ends when Keith
gives up--which he's promised to do a couple times just in this thread.
It takes very little effort for me to slap him down every time he posts
his crap.
He plays nice--I leave him alone. He wants to tangle, it's like swatting
a fly.
I'm sorry if it takes away from your enjoyment of the Sandbox. There are
a lot of 'boxers who understand what's going on, and get a minor kick
out of these exchanges.
Later, Rudy
Rudy Panucci
>
> It's like this, Shawn. I admitted a long time ago that this has devolved
> into a pissing contest between Keith Davis and me. Here's the situation:
> I have nearly super-human bladder control powers. This ends when Keith
> gives up--which he's promised to do a couple times just in this thread.
> It takes very little effort for me to slap him down every time he posts
> his crap.
>
> He plays nice--I leave him alone. He wants to tangle, it's like swatting
> a fly.
>
Let me clarify--I do not swat flies by peeing on them. Mixed metaphors
there. Sorry. :-)
Later, Rudy
ARROW
>
> Let me clarify--I do not swat flies by peeing on them. Mixed metaphors
> there. Sorry. :-)
>
> Later, Rudy
But I wanna see video of that! No, seriously!!