Black Metal is dead
kc...@anti-social.com
> > Just look at these fucking boards, how many pro Satyricon posts do you see?
>
> Honestly I do not think these newsgroups are any place to do this evaluation.
> There certainly are no more than a couple of dozen people here who are
actively
> invoicing their opinions about everything. Go to a good BM gig and you see
> hundreds of people, passively invoicing their opinions with their posture and
> behavior.I trust what I see up there, not these newsgroups.
Most people come to newsgroups to find a masturbatory outlet for an otherwise
threatened ego, allowing themselves to vent without constructing anything to
which they are then tied by an obligation or desire to keep it alive. Hence,
most of what occurs on here is wanking. That being said, however, Satyricon
sucks dog ass.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
kc...@anti-social.com
> > Ulver. Once upon a time they were unique, now has the typical black
> > metal sound.
>
> Yes, of course, that's the thing about Coil-esque synths, droning
> soundscapes that Michael Gira could have composed, haunting spoken word
> from the poetry of William Blake and barely a guitar in sight.... It's
> just the "typical black metal sound"...
>
> Do you even know who Ulver are? :) I'm assuming you've only ever heard
> "Nattens Madrigal" at best...
His conclusion was probably apt, if he heard Nattens Madrigal. The new one
does not sound enticing to me - hearing Jim Morrison slice up Blake was
reasonable, but hearing Ulver - whose honesty I distrust - slicing it up is
sort of like hearing Metallia cover Ornette Coleman.
DEATH/BLACK METAL/JAZZ RADIO
http://www.kcuf.org/radio/
opyros
Black Metal ??? I donæ„’ hear any Metal in their music and itæ„€ far from
being black as well...
DEATH TO NORSECORE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Opyros
Sybren
wrote:
>You see, what people fail to understand, is that Black Metal really
>sucked a few years ago. Finally, some of the people in the bands are
>learning how to play their instruments and have some form of talent in
>writing the songs. That also leads to what many talented bands like to
>call "good production". Although a band that has good production is
>perceived as a "sell out". If you're into out of tune crappy sounding
>guitars, off beat drums, annoying screams about some fictional character
>named "Satan" and face paint like it's halloween 24/7, then by all means
>go ahead. But don't complain that it's no longer true or evil or
>whatever. Maybe some of the musicians have just gotten smarter.
Hehehehe...you are a troll AND an aestheticist :)
Sybren
David James Vairinhos
Child) are far superior to crap like Mayhem and Ulver, wouldn't you agree?
Dreaming Neon Black,
-The "V" / The "G"
"As the curtain calls, and the cast recedes
I am all that was and all that will ever be,
In wither and repose this frayed chapter
now does close, and fade into Neon Black..."
-Warrel Dane
"Welcome To The Fall...(Of One Man's Sanity)"
s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca
hate...@yahoo.com
John Chedsey
>
> But these new wave Black Metal bands (Covenant, Dimmu Borgir, Old Man's
> Child) are far superior to crap like Mayhem and Ulver, wouldn't you agree?
Mayhem yes, Ulver no. Old Man's Child, however, is boring no matter
what.
--
====================
Satan Stole My Teddybear
http://www.chedsey.com
John Chedsey
>
> But these new wave Black Metal bands (Covenant, Dimmu Borgir, Old Man's
> Child) are far superior to crap like Mayhem and Ulver, wouldn't you agree?
Speaking of Ulver & ALL as we have been lately (gosh, when will they
tour together), ALL's drummer Bill Stevenson told me yesterday that
Ulver was one of his favorite bands for awhile. He was truly blown away
by them.
David James Vairinhos
band that records an album outdoors!? Christ...All & Ulver touring
together; now THAT would be intersting!!! (oops, forgot an "e"...ah, well)
Snickering Neon Black,
-The "V" / The "G"
"As the curtain calls, and the cast recedes
I am all that was and all that will ever be,
In wither and repose this frayed chapter
now does close, and fade into Neon Black..."
-Warrel Dane
"Welcome To The Fall...(Of One Man's Sanity)"
s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca
hate...@yahoo.com
David James Vairinhos
Dreaming Neon Black,
-The "V" / The "G"
"As the curtain calls, and the cast recedes
I am all that was and all that will ever be,
In wither and repose this frayed chapter
now does close, and fade into Neon Black..."
-Warrel Dane
"Welcome To The Fall...(Of One Man's Sanity)"
s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca
hate...@yahoo.com
On Sat, 6 Mar 1999, John Chedsey wrote:
> David James Vairinhos wrote:
> >
> > But these new wave Black Metal bands (Covenant, Dimmu Borgir, Old Man's
> > Child) are far superior to crap like Mayhem and Ulver, wouldn't you agree?
>
> Mayhem yes, Ulver no. Old Man's Child, however, is boring no matter
> what.
John Chedsey
>
> Aw, come on...You don't like "Soul Possessed"? Killer tune...
I dunno...I think the CD lulled me to sleep before that point. I've
since traded away all my OMC discs.
Sybren
<s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> wrote:
>But these new wave Black Metal bands (Covenant, Dimmu Borgir, Old Man's
>Child) are far superior to crap like Mayhem and Ulver, wouldn't you agree?
Of course. And 'new wave' punk bands like Green Day are far superior
to crap like The Sex Pistols, Dead Kennedys and Crass. And the latest
three Metallica albums are definitely better than those awful sounding
"Kill 'em All" and "Ride The Lightning"...and Hammerfall is so much
better than Iron Maiden!
Yeah dude, be openminded, you'll surely agree with me!
</sarcasm>
Sybren
David James Vairinhos
"commercial" bands have made people
take it more seriously, instead of the ones recording crappy albums
outdoors and wearing corpse-paint (that they undoubtedly stole from their
mothers) and waving antique weapons they bought at garage sales, and
running around in the forests of Norway. It's bands like Cradle Of Filth
and Dimmu Borgir that have made people sit up and take notice, while
everyone else is still laughing their asses off at Mayhem and Ulver. Face
it, pal-you're alone.
Snickering Neon Black,
-The "V" / The "G"
"As the curtain calls, and the cast recedes
I am all that was and all that will ever be,
In wither and repose this frayed chapter
now does close, and fade into Neon Black..."
-Warrel Dane
"Welcome To The Fall...(Of One Man's Sanity)"
s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca
hate...@yahoo.com
Heretic
Heretic
Sybren
<s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> wrote:
>> >But these new wave Black Metal bands (Covenant, Dimmu Borgir, Old Man's
>> >Child) are far superior to crap like Mayhem and Ulver, wouldn't you agree?
>>
>> Of course. And 'new wave' punk bands like Green Day are far superior
>> to crap like The Sex Pistols, Dead Kennedys and Crass. And the latest
>> three Metallica albums are definitely better than those awful sounding
>> "Kill 'em All" and "Ride The Lightning"...and Hammerfall is so much
>> better than Iron Maiden!
>>
>> Yeah dude, be openminded, you'll surely agree with me!
>>
>> </sarcasm>
>
>Hmmm...Is that sarcasm I detect?
You bet!
>What I was trying to say was, I think the
>"commercial" bands have made people
>take it more seriously,
Seriously? If anything, these bands are not serious at all. Dimmu
Borgir releasing a t-shirt with a "Cunthunters of the Night" print,
CoF with their totally over-the-top vampire erotica, Covenant with
their hilarious appearance on "Spellemannsprisen" - whereas there
still is a large group of bands that are *serious* about the music and
the ideology behind it.
>instead of the ones recording crappy albums
Crappy as in? And don't come up with 'the sound quality is so bad' or
'it's so harsh and repetitive' - that's what they're aiming at.
Personally, I think that writing derivative rock'n'roll songs is more
'crappy' than bands (successfully) creating the atmosphere that's
coherent with their ideology.
>outdoors
Hehehe. There are NO black metal albums recorded outdoors. I don't
know where you get *that* information.
>and wearing corpse-paint (that they undoubtedly stole from their
>mothers)
You're obviously trolling here. Ever heard of the background of
corpsepaint?
>and waving antique weapons they bought at garage sales, and
>running around in the forests of Norway. It's bands like Cradle Of Filth
>and Dimmu Borgir that have made people sit up and take notice,
...and still laughing their asses off, while the bands in question are
making fools of themselves by comprimising their Art in favour of
public acceptance.
>while
>everyone else is still laughing their asses off at Mayhem and Ulver. Face
>it, pal-you're alone.
At least I'm not as worried about acceptance by the public, publicity
and aesthetics as you seem to be. Who cares if I'm alone - it's sheep
mentality like this that kills art and promotes entertainment.
Sybren
Mekratryg
> Hmmm...Is that sarcasm I detect? What I was trying to say was, I think
> the "commercial" bands have made people take it more seriously, instead
> of the ones recording crappy albums outdoors and wearing corpse-paint
> (that they undoubtedly stole from their mothers) and waving antique
> weapons they bought at garage sales, and running around in the forests of
> Norway.
Yeah. They think it's seriously fucking lame. Why must the inbred speak on
matters they know nothing about?
> It's bands like Cradle Of Filth and Dimmu Borgir that have made people
> sit up and take notice, while everyone else is still laughing their asses
> off at Mayhem and Ulver. Face it, pal-you're alone.
People are laughing at CoF and Dimmu Borgir. I have some aquaintences who
are normal, mundane opfers, and they laugh at Dimmu Borgir and CoF because
they're so visible. Not one of them has ever heard of Mayhem, or Ulver, or
Dodheimsgard, or Darkthrone, or any of the other black metal bands worth a
fuck.
He is not alone.
--
/\__^__/\/\_____/\_______/\_ __ /\_^___/\__.
\ | /\____ \ ____/\ \/ \ \ | \_ |__ Under A Funeral Moon
/ _ \/ _ \ _|___/ ___ \/ | / | \ Xaemyl est Sadistykl
/ \\ | \\ / | \\___ \ \\ Killing Victims Found
\ __|__ /___|__ / ____\____|__ / _____/_______ \ Many More Must Suffer
\/ \/ \/\/ \/\/ \/ Feel The Power of Pain!
Richard Stuart
David James Vairinhos <s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> writes
>Hmmm...Is that sarcasm I detect? What I was trying to say was, I think the
>"commercial" bands have made people
>take it more seriously, instead of the ones recording crappy albums
>outdoors and wearing corpse-paint (that they undoubtedly stole from their
>mothers) and waving antique weapons they bought at garage sales, and
>and Dimmu Borgir that have made people sit up and take notice, while
>everyone else is still laughing their asses off at Mayhem and Ulver.
Interesting you mentioned corpsepaint, since CoF and Dimmu Borgir wear
it and Ulver never have, to my knowledge! Anyway, at the end of the day
the only important thing is for people to listen to whatever floats
their boat. I'm speaking generally here, not about the above poster.
There's too much fucking snobbery when it comes to people's tastes in
music, with some cunts saying "if you like Graveland you can't like
Dimmu Borgir," or "if you like Skrewdriver you can't like Frank
Sinatra," or wotever. It's bloody ridiculous.
-Ricks
NO FUN... NO CORE... NO MOSH... NO TRENDS
kcufs...@my-dejanews.com
> Hmmm...Is that sarcasm I detect? What I was trying to say was, I think the
> "commercial" bands have made people
> take it more seriously, instead of the ones recording crappy albums
> outdoors and wearing corpse-paint (that they undoubtedly stole from their
> mothers) and waving antique weapons they bought at garage sales, and
> running around in the forests of Norway. It's bands like Cradle Of Filth
> and Dimmu Borgir that have made people sit up and take notice, while
> everyone else is still laughing their asses off at Mayhem and Ulver. Face
> it, pal-you're alone.
As far as _Consumers_, you are probably right. But they do not even value
their own opinions.
As far as those who appreciate _Art_, you couldn't be more wrong.
kcufs...@my-dejanews.com
It's too bad they don't give Oscars for newsgroup performances. Sybren and
Annatar Gorthaur would sweep, with awards going to Wozzeck and Heretic as well
for their most recent rounds.
In article <36e2dcb6...@news.casema.net>,
S.J.He...@lr.tudelft.nl wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Mar 1999 16:03:08 -0330, David James Vairinhos
> <s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> wrote:
>
> >> >But these new wave Black Metal bands (Covenant, Dimmu Borgir, Old Man's
> >> >Child) are far superior to crap like Mayhem and Ulver, wouldn't you agree?
> >>
> >> Of course. And 'new wave' punk bands like Green Day are far superior
> >> to crap like The Sex Pistols, Dead Kennedys and Crass. And the latest
> >> three Metallica albums are definitely better than those awful sounding
> >> "Kill 'em All" and "Ride The Lightning"...and Hammerfall is so much
> >> better than Iron Maiden!
> >>
> >> Yeah dude, be openminded, you'll surely agree with me!
> >>
> >> </sarcasm>
> >
> >Hmmm...Is that sarcasm I detect?
>
> You bet!
>
> >What I was trying to say was, I think the
> >"commercial" bands have made people
> >take it more seriously,
>
> Seriously? If anything, these bands are not serious at all. Dimmu
> Borgir releasing a t-shirt with a "Cunthunters of the Night" print,
> CoF with their totally over-the-top vampire erotica, Covenant with
> their hilarious appearance on "Spellemannsprisen" - whereas there
> still is a large group of bands that are *serious* about the music and
> the ideology behind it.
>
> >instead of the ones recording crappy albums
>
> Crappy as in? And don't come up with 'the sound quality is so bad' or
> 'it's so harsh and repetitive' - that's what they're aiming at.
> Personally, I think that writing derivative rock'n'roll songs is more
> 'crappy' than bands (successfully) creating the atmosphere that's
> coherent with their ideology.
>
> >outdoors
>
> Hehehe. There are NO black metal albums recorded outdoors. I don't
> know where you get *that* information.
>
> >and wearing corpse-paint (that they undoubtedly stole from their
> >mothers)
>
> You're obviously trolling here. Ever heard of the background of
> corpsepaint?
>
> >and waving antique weapons they bought at garage sales, and
> >running around in the forests of Norway. It's bands like Cradle Of Filth
> >and Dimmu Borgir that have made people sit up and take notice,
>
> ...and still laughing their asses off, while the bands in question are
> making fools of themselves by comprimising their Art in favour of
> public acceptance.
>
> >while
> >everyone else is still laughing their asses off at Mayhem and Ulver. Face
> >it, pal-you're alone.
>
> At least I'm not as worried about acceptance by the public, publicity
> and aesthetics as you seem to be. Who cares if I'm alone - it's sheep
> mentality like this that kills art and promotes entertainment.
>
> Sybren
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
mango...@my-dejanews.com
Richard Stuart <Ri...@tpstuart.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <Pine.OSF.3.95.99030...@plato.ucs.mun.ca>,
> David James Vairinhos <s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> writes
> >"commercial" bands have made people
> >outdoors and wearing corpse-paint (that they undoubtedly stole from their
> >mothers) and waving antique weapons they bought at garage sales, and
> >running around in the forests of Norway. It's bands like Cradle Of Filth
> >everyone else is still laughing their asses off at Mayhem and Ulver.
>
> it and Ulver never have, to my knowledge! Anyway, at the end of the day
> the only important thing is for people to listen to whatever floats
> their boat. I'm speaking generally here, not about the above poster.
> There's too much fucking snobbery when it comes to people's tastes in
> music, with some cunts saying "if you like Graveland you can't like
> Dimmu Borgir," or "if you like Skrewdriver you can't like Frank
> Sinatra," or wotever. It's bloody ridiculous.
>
> -Ricks
>
You've hit it right on the head there Rick. There seems to be an element of
eliteism, or even just plain snobbery running through BM.
Whereas my attitude is different - what the music sounds like is the most
important thing to me. Lyrics, Attitude and Philosopy are important, but the
music comes first. Whereas I get the impression that some people don't
actually care about the music, just if the band are "elite Black Metallers",
whatever that means. Mundanus Imperium may be the biggest Satanists or "elite
Black Metallers" out, but their music is still terrible, and as such they
should be shot...
Regards,
Dave
(a closet ABBA fan)
> NO FUN... NO CORE... NO MOSH... NO TRENDS
>
> http://www.iki.fi/mega/metal/Rickreviews/index.html
>
Email me at mor...@valinor.freeserve.co.uk
====================================================================
WWW:http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/5885/index.html
(The Legions of the Black Moon - the unofficial Bal-Sagoth homepage)
John Chedsey
>
> Mundanus Imperium may be the biggest Satanists or "elite
> Black Metallers" out, but their music is still terrible, and as such they
> should be shot...
Dave, I fully, 100% agree with you. Get out the shotguns, paw!
Sybren
wrote:
>mango...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
>> Mundanus Imperium may be the biggest Satanists or "elite
>> Black Metallers" out, but their music is still terrible, and as such they
>> should be shot...
>
>Dave, I fully, 100% agree with you. Get out the shotguns, paw!
Uhhh...but since when is MI black metal?
Sybren
John Chedsey
It needs amending to Bad metal. Bad bad bad.
Did I mention they're bad?
m_c...@geocities.com
David James Vairinhos <s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> wrote:
> But these new wave Black Metal bands (Covenant, Dimmu Borgir, Old Man's
> Child) are far superior to crap like Mayhem and Ulver, wouldn't you agree?
Modern-day "THE TRUE" Mayhem (TM), maybe, but old Mayhem, Darkthrone,
Immortal, etc., fucking blow away all that come after them. It gets no
blacker than "Transilvanian Hunger" or "Live in Leipzig" or "Pure Holocaust"
(or should I say "Battles in the North", goden? :)
Vic
kcufs...@my-dejanews.com
KCUF RADIO: Metal Crashing Down Around You
It's like someone dropped a junkyard from the sky. All that machinery we've
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AMC's, and even a Spitfire or two. The whole world of human perception is
built from fragile towers of justification which fall apart when the face of
entropy bares its grinning teeth.
At least, that's what our death metal and black metal sound like to most
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Show: Lords of Destruction
Type: DEATH METAL RADIO
This week's death metal dosage has been upped with a selection of the most
powerful and thunderously hitting music we could find. The theme is pure
anger, a resentment of the world born into a force of change, and it comes
together with the roaring intensity of Master meeting the surgical
alterations in merciless pounding that is Cryptopsy, flanked by a supporting
cast with varied acts from around the world.
1. Adramelech - "Captured in Eternal Lost" (Seven/Repulse)
2. Master - "Re-terrorizer" (Faith is in Season/Pavement)
3. Autopsy - "I Will Sodomize Your Corpse" (Shitfun/Peaceville)
4. Sarcophagus - "The Dark Lord of Impurity" (Requiem to the Death of
Passion/Nightfall)
5. Demilich - "(Within) The Chamber of Whispering Eyes" (Nespithe/Necropolis)
6. Cryptopsy - "Cold Hate, Warm Blood" (Whisper Supremacy/Century Media)
7. Rudra - "Wareligion" (Rudra/Candlelight Productions)
Now hear the show [<a
href=http://www.kcuf.org/radio/files/death21.ram>http://www.kcuf.org/radio/fi
les /death21.ram</a>]
Show: Dawn of Ragnarok
Type: BLACK METAL
A journey into the darkness of the soul... this week's black metal program
broke its own heart in desperation of life when it refused to play anything
hinting at light toward the end of the tunnel. Soaring arcs of necromancy
start the set with Veles, and it gnashes its teeth with violence and
vengeance all the way through to a majestic conclusion with an unbearably raw
version of an Emperor classic that defined the song for the first generation
of black metalheads. Featured also is a track from the much-discussed Abigor,
from their recent compilation of their early works.
1. Veles - "A Dark Dream" (Night on the Bare Mountain/No Colours)
2. Samael - "Morbid Metal" (Worship Him/Osmose)
3. Det Hedenske Folk - "Northland Rules" (Split with Abyssic Hate/Bloodless
Creations)
4. Abigor - "Shadowlord" (Origo Regium/Napalm Records)
5. Bathory - "Witchcraft" (Jubileum III/Black Mark)
6. Emperor - "Night of the Graveless Souls" (Wrath of the Tyrant/Candlelight)
Now hear the show [<a
href=http://www.kcuf.org/radio/files/black21.ram>http://www.kcuf.org/radio/fi
les /black21.ram</a>]
Thanks for tuning in and remember the KCUF radio is your net.stop for metal
listening. New material every week and we never, ever relent from our mission
of total extremity without losing the music in the equation.
myles robert hamilton
On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Richard Stuart wrote:
> Anyway, at the end of the day
> the only important thing is for people to listen to whatever floats
> their boat. I'm speaking generally here, not about the above poster.
> There's too much fucking snobbery when it comes to people's tastes in
> music, with some cunts saying "if you like Graveland you can't like
> Dimmu Borgir," or "if you like Skrewdriver you can't like Frank
> Sinatra," or wotever. It's bloody ridiculous.
>
I agree. Interpretation of music is such an intensly personal
matter that the judgements of others do not really have practical
significance.
Melvin Slundersloth
kcufs...@my-dejanews.com
No one is telling anyone what to like, but there are some of us here who have
come to the realization that some of this stuff is entertainment, and some is
art, and never the twain will meet because they have contradictory objectives.
Hence while all of what you say above looks good and all, it's very intensely
useless to understanding music at all, and seems to me more self-righteous
wanking than actual contribution. If what others say doesn't matter, why are
you jumping up to the bait? There's truth in the idea that to like Graveland
and Dimmu Borgir, you're deceived on one end of the equation.
Bill Russell
>
> > > Anyway, at the end of the day
> > > the only important thing is for people to listen to whatever floats
> > > their boat. I'm speaking generally here, not about the above poster.
> > > There's too much fucking snobbery when it comes to people's tastes in
> > > music, with some cunts saying "if you like Graveland you can't like
> > > Dimmu Borgir," or "if you like Skrewdriver you can't like Frank
> > > Sinatra," or wotever. It's bloody ridiculous.
> > >
> > I agree. Interpretation of music is such an intensly personal
> > matter that the judgements of others do not really have practical
> > significance.
>
> No one is telling anyone what to like, but there are some of us here who have
> come to the realization that some of this stuff is entertainment, and some is
> art, and never the twain will meet because they have contradictory objectives.
> Hence while all of what you say above looks good and all, it's very intensely
> useless to understanding music at all, and seems to me more self-righteous
> wanking than actual contribution. If what others say doesn't matter, why are
> you jumping up to the bait? There's truth in the idea that to like Graveland
> and Dimmu Borgir, you're deceived on one end of the equation.
>
I like Dimmu Borgir and DarkThrone(substituting for Graveland, because I
have never heard Graveland), obviously for different reasons. But why
can't you like one thing for it's musical values, and like something
else for its artistic, musical and political values? I mean, if I like
Dimmu Borgir, I like it because it has a great sound, excellent riffs
and tight playing. However I like DarkThrone because of the emotion,
ideals and sound of the music which makes an impact in a different way.
Dimmu is like listening to Cannibal Corpse, fun to listen to but not
anything that will make a change in the way you think(and I am not
saying this is bad, in fact, it's good, sometimes you just need to relax
and listen to something that doesn't exhaust you!)
Andrew
Bill Russell
>
> > I like Dimmu Borgir and DarkThrone(substituting for Graveland, because I
> > have never heard Graveland), obviously for different reasons. But why
> > can't you like one thing for it's musical values, and like something
> > else for its artistic, musical and political values?
>
I agree there.
>
> > I mean, if I like
> > Dimmu Borgir, I like it because it has a great sound, excellent riffs
> > and tight playing. However I like DarkThrone because of the emotion,
> > ideals and sound of the music which makes an impact in a different way.
> > Dimmu is like listening to Cannibal Corpse, fun to listen to but not
> > anything that will make a change in the way you think(and I am not
> > saying this is bad, in fact, it's good, sometimes you just need to relax
> > and listen to something that doesn't exhaust you!)
>
> I think we're saying the same thing, except what you're saying at the end is,
> "and sometimes I want to watch television, and not have a life-experience."
> Corrolary to that is that watching television, or taking some drugs, drops
> you out of life while the onus to be there is still upon you - you are only
> cheating yourself of some irreplaceable experience. So I suppose I've said
> enough that it's obvious why my opinions are so extreme, by way of stating
> the extreme loss to an individual of the depersonalizing anti-experience that
> is commodity entertainment.
>
I have an extremely busy life, I am on the go 24 hours, sometimes I need
to just relax and let go. I find it harder to listen to deep music when
I am not in the mood to delve into that part of myself and explore,
sometimes I just need some light listening to make my day less harsh
than it already is. Hehe, being my idea of lighter listening, CC or
Dimmu Borgir, COF, Old Man's Child etc.
James S Kang
> In article <Pine.OSF.3.95.99030...@plato.ucs.mun.ca>,
> David James Vairinhos <s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> writes
> >Hmmm...Is that sarcasm I detect? What I was trying to say was, I think the
> >"commercial" bands have made people
> >take it more seriously, instead of the ones recording crappy albums
> >outdoors and wearing corpse-paint (that they undoubtedly stole from their
> >mothers) and waving antique weapons they bought at garage sales, and
> >running around in the forests of Norway. It's bands like Cradle Of Filth
> >and Dimmu Borgir that have made people sit up and take notice, while
> >everyone else is still laughing their asses off at Mayhem and Ulver.
> Interesting you mentioned corpsepaint, since CoF and Dimmu Borgir wear
> it and Ulver never have, to my knowledge! Anyway, at the end of the day
> the only important thing is for people to listen to whatever floats
> their boat. I'm speaking generally here, not about the above poster.
> There's too much fucking snobbery when it comes to people's tastes in
> music, with some cunts saying "if you like Graveland you can't like
> Dimmu Borgir," or "if you like Skrewdriver you can't like Frank
> Sinatra," or wotever. It's bloody ridiculous.
I agree. Besides, Skrewdriver and Sinatra aren't really that far apart,
politically.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Under a pale grey sky
We shall arise!"
--Sepultura
http://chaos.corrupt.net
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
kcufs...@my-dejanews.com
> I like Dimmu Borgir and DarkThrone(substituting for Graveland, because I
> have never heard Graveland), obviously for different reasons. But why
> can't you like one thing for it's musical values, and like something
> else for its artistic, musical and political values?
Musical and artistic are almost totally inseperable.
> I mean, if I like
> Dimmu Borgir, I like it because it has a great sound, excellent riffs
> and tight playing. However I like DarkThrone because of the emotion,
> ideals and sound of the music which makes an impact in a different way.
> Dimmu is like listening to Cannibal Corpse, fun to listen to but not
> anything that will make a change in the way you think(and I am not
> saying this is bad, in fact, it's good, sometimes you just need to relax
> and listen to something that doesn't exhaust you!)
I think we're saying the same thing, except what you're saying at the end is,
"and sometimes I want to watch television, and not have a life-experience."
Corrolary to that is that watching television, or taking some drugs, drops
you out of life while the onus to be there is still upon you - you are only
cheating yourself of some irreplaceable experience. So I suppose I've said
enough that it's obvious why my opinions are so extreme, by way of stating
the extreme loss to an individual of the depersonalizing anti-experience that
is commodity entertainment.
David James Vairinhos
saying you) I seriously question...:)
Dreaming Neon Black,
-The "V" / The "G"
"As the curtain calls, and the cast recedes
I am all that was and all that will ever be,
In wither and repose this frayed chapter
now does close, and fade into Neon Black..."
-Warrel Dane
"Welcome To The Fall...(Of One Man's Sanity)"
s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca
hate...@yahoo.com
On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Richard Stuart wrote:
> In article <Pine.OSF.3.95.99030...@plato.ucs.mun.ca>,
> David James Vairinhos <s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> writes
> >Hmmm...Is that sarcasm I detect? What I was trying to say was, I think the
> >"commercial" bands have made people
> >take it more seriously, instead of the ones recording crappy albums
> >outdoors and wearing corpse-paint (that they undoubtedly stole from their
> >mothers) and waving antique weapons they bought at garage sales, and
> >running around in the forests of Norway. It's bands like Cradle Of Filth
> >and Dimmu Borgir that have made people sit up and take notice, while
> >everyone else is still laughing their asses off at Mayhem and Ulver.
>
> Interesting you mentioned corpsepaint, since CoF and Dimmu Borgir wear
> it and Ulver never have, to my knowledge! Anyway, at the end of the day
> the only important thing is for people to listen to whatever floats
> their boat. I'm speaking generally here, not about the above poster.
> There's too much fucking snobbery when it comes to people's tastes in
> music, with some cunts saying "if you like Graveland you can't like
> Dimmu Borgir," or "if you like Skrewdriver you can't like Frank
> Sinatra," or wotever. It's bloody ridiculous.
>
>
> -Ricks
David James Vairinhos
mother had been a buck cheaper I'd have been your father....Mwa ha ha!!!
I know, that was lame....
Dreaming Neon Black,
-The "V" / The "G"
"As the curtain calls, and the cast recedes
I am all that was and all that will ever be,
In wither and repose this frayed chapter
now does close, and fade into Neon Black..."
-Warrel Dane
"Welcome To The Fall...(Of One Man's Sanity)"
s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca
hate...@yahoo.com
On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Mekratryg wrote:
> David James Vairinhos <s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> writes:
>
> > Hmmm...Is that sarcasm I detect? What I was trying to say was, I think
> > the "commercial" bands have made people take it more seriously, instead
> > of the ones recording crappy albums outdoors and wearing corpse-paint
> > (that they undoubtedly stole from their mothers) and waving antique
> > weapons they bought at garage sales, and running around in the forests of
> > Norway.
>
> Yeah. They think it's seriously fucking lame. Why must the inbred speak on
> matters they know nothing about?
>
> > It's bands like Cradle Of Filth and Dimmu Borgir that have made people
> > sit up and take notice, while everyone else is still laughing their asses
> > off at Mayhem and Ulver. Face it, pal-you're alone.
>
David James Vairinhos
listen to something if it's popular? And Dimmu Borgir & C.O.F can actually
play, unlike Mayhem or Ulver. And one of Ulver recordings WAS recorded
outside; or Century Black lied in the "Firestarter" Compilation credits.
Sheep mentality, Jesus. Get therapy, friend...
Dreaming Neon Black,
-The "V" / The "G"
"As the curtain calls, and the cast recedes
I am all that was and all that will ever be,
In wither and repose this frayed chapter
now does close, and fade into Neon Black..."
-Warrel Dane
"Welcome To The Fall...(Of One Man's Sanity)"
s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca
hate...@yahoo.com
On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Sybren wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Mar 1999 16:03:08 -0330, David James Vairinhos
> <s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> wrote:
>
> >> >But these new wave Black Metal bands (Covenant, Dimmu Borgir, Old Man's
> >> >Child) are far superior to crap like Mayhem and Ulver, wouldn't you agree?
> >>
> >> Of course. And 'new wave' punk bands like Green Day are far superior
> >> to crap like The Sex Pistols, Dead Kennedys and Crass. And the latest
> >> three Metallica albums are definitely better than those awful sounding
> >> "Kill 'em All" and "Ride The Lightning"...and Hammerfall is so much
> >> better than Iron Maiden!
> >>
> >> Yeah dude, be openminded, you'll surely agree with me!
> >>
> >> </sarcasm>
> >
> >Hmmm...Is that sarcasm I detect?
>
> You bet!
>
> >What I was trying to say was, I think the
> >"commercial" bands have made people
> >take it more seriously,
>
> Seriously? If anything, these bands are not serious at all. Dimmu
> Borgir releasing a t-shirt with a "Cunthunters of the Night" print,
> CoF with their totally over-the-top vampire erotica, Covenant with
> their hilarious appearance on "Spellemannsprisen" - whereas there
> still is a large group of bands that are *serious* about the music and
> the ideology behind it.
>
> >instead of the ones recording crappy albums
>
> Crappy as in? And don't come up with 'the sound quality is so bad' or
> 'it's so harsh and repetitive' - that's what they're aiming at.
> Personally, I think that writing derivative rock'n'roll songs is more
> 'crappy' than bands (successfully) creating the atmosphere that's
> coherent with their ideology.
>
> >outdoors
>
> Hehehe. There are NO black metal albums recorded outdoors. I don't
> know where you get *that* information.
>
> >and wearing corpse-paint (that they undoubtedly stole from their
> >mothers)
>
> You're obviously trolling here. Ever heard of the background of
> corpsepaint?
>
> >and waving antique weapons they bought at garage sales, and
> >running around in the forests of Norway. It's bands like Cradle Of Filth
> >and Dimmu Borgir that have made people sit up and take notice,
>
> ...and still laughing their asses off, while the bands in question are
> making fools of themselves by comprimising their Art in favour of
> public acceptance.
>
> >while
> >everyone else is still laughing their asses off at Mayhem and Ulver. Face
> >it, pal-you're alone.
>
Dennis Dyer
> > In article <Pine.OSF.3.95.99030...@plato.ucs.mun.ca>,
> > >"commercial" bands have made people
> > >outdoors and wearing corpse-paint (that they undoubtedly stole from their
> > >mothers) and waving antique weapons they bought at garage sales, and
> > >running around in the forests of Norway. It's bands like Cradle Of Filth
> > >everyone else is still laughing their asses off at Mayhem and Ulver.
> >
> > it and Ulver never have, to my knowledge! Anyway, at the end of the day
> > the only important thing is for people to listen to whatever floats
> > their boat. I'm speaking generally here, not about the above poster.
> > There's too much fucking snobbery when it comes to people's tastes in
> > music, with some cunts saying "if you like Graveland you can't like
> > Dimmu Borgir," or "if you like Skrewdriver you can't like Frank
> > Sinatra," or wotever. It's bloody ridiculous.
> >
> > -Ricks
> >
>
> eliteism, or even just plain snobbery running through BM.
>
> Whereas my attitude is different - what the music sounds like is the most
> important thing to me. Lyrics, Attitude and Philosopy are important, but the
> music comes first. Whereas I get the impression that some people don't
> actually care about the music, just if the band are "elite Black Metallers",
> Black Metallers" out, but their music is still terrible, and as such they
> should be shot...
>
> Dave
> (a closet ABBA fan)
>
> >
> > http://www.iki.fi/mega/metal/Rickreviews/index.html
> >
>
> ====================================================================
> WWW:http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/5885/index.html
> (The Legions of the Black Moon - the unofficial Bal-Sagoth homepage)
>
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
I'LL DRINK TO THAT!! :)
John Chedsey
>
> So I suppose I've said
> enough that it's obvious why my opinions are so extreme, by way of stating
> the extreme loss to an individual of the depersonalizing anti-experience that
> is commodity entertainment.
Generally when you see this statement and the word commodity anywhere in
the text, you can betcha they're just talking out their hats.
If you look at music culture, there are going to be varying reactions to
various music according to one's own preferences, life experiences and
other variables. While Nomeansno may create what I consider damn close
to ultimate music in all terms: force of sonic power, deep lyrical
insight, talent, emotion and so on, they may do nothing for you. Does
that immediately devalue their music? No. The same argument can be
applied to Dimmu Borgir. While they may not toe the black metal line
and you may not agree with whatever is they're encroaching, what if
someone has a deep, profound appreciation and is enlighted due to their
music? Just because they don't adhere to Philosophy A, they are no
longer of value to the world at large? Music is a deep emotional and
damn near spiritual experience, but those experiences vary from person
to person. There is simply no way one webradio DJ can make a blanket
statement drawing concrete lines saying what does or doesn't have value.
And at the same time, what may on the surface appear to be "commodity"
entertainment (hoo boy, that was a term that only contains meaning
within this newsgroup) can possibly lead to something grand. Take They
Might Be Giants "Flood", which is the penultimate throwaway pop album.
Ten years later it is still breathtaking in its depth, though from a
superficial standpoint it is nothing more than singalong pop schmaltz.
I think Richard Stuart hit the nail on the head about black metal
snobbery. It's laughable anymore to see these attempts to create
artificial and universal demands on what music should or shouldn't
contain based entirely on your tastes.
Dave Moore
"Birdhouse in Your Soul" is the best song of all time!
(Well, "Heaven is a Place on Earth" and "Supertrooper" come close to this..)
> I think Richard Stuart hit the nail on the head about black metal
> snobbery. It's laughable anymore to see these attempts to create
> artificial and universal demands on what music should or shouldn't
> contain based entirely on your tastes.
>
Yep. It's just plain snobbery....
Regards,
Dave
> --
> ====================
> Satan Stole My Teddybear
> http://www.chedsey.com
>
The Legions of the Black Moon - the unofficial Bal-Sagoth homepage
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/5885/index.html
==================================================================
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law - Aleister Crowley
James S Kang
> > I like Dimmu Borgir and DarkThrone(substituting for Graveland, because I
> > have never heard Graveland), obviously for different reasons. But why
> > can't you like one thing for it's musical values, and like something
> > else for its artistic, musical and political values?
> Musical and artistic are almost totally inseperable.
I agree. And lyrical and artistic are mostly seperable.
> > I mean, if I like
> > Dimmu Borgir, I like it because it has a great sound, excellent riffs
> > and tight playing. However I like DarkThrone because of the emotion,
> > ideals and sound of the music which makes an impact in a different way.
> > Dimmu is like listening to Cannibal Corpse, fun to listen to but not
> > anything that will make a change in the way you think(and I am not
> > saying this is bad, in fact, it's good, sometimes you just need to relax
> > and listen to something that doesn't exhaust you!)
> I think we're saying the same thing, except what you're saying at the end is,
> "and sometimes I want to watch television, and not have a life-experience."
> Corrolary to that is that watching television, or taking some drugs, drops
> you out of life while the onus to be there is still upon you - you are only
> cheating yourself of some irreplaceable experience. So I suppose I've said
> enough that it's obvious why my opinions are so extreme, by way of stating
> the extreme loss to an individual of the depersonalizing anti-experience that
> is commodity entertainment.
You have to be careful of not "forcing" life experience. A lot of people are
busy as bees, always pushing themselves into things, determined to seize "as
much as they can" out of life. These people are also cheating themselves by
putting a layer of artificiality on everything. Doing nothing is not
necessarily meaningless or worthless.
Annatar Gorthaur
Whining about "snobbery"?
To keep metal fresh, innovative, youthful and ALIVE we have to REJECT
the bad stuff! Open-mindedness is only an excuse for accepting inferior,
WEAK music. I say, NO FUCKING COMPROMISE. If stuff is bad, kick it out.
Leave it. Reject it. BURN IT (or, trade it to some judeo-christian,
which is essentially the same as burning it).
If you feel looked-down upon by that, that's your problem and your
fault.
HAIL BLACK METAL: EXTREME MUSIC FOR EXTREME MINDS
Annatar Gorthaur
John Chedsey
>
> What's this?? Has this newsgroup changed its mentality or something?
> Whining about "snobbery"?
>
> To keep metal fresh, innovative, youthful and ALIVE we have to REJECT
> the bad stuff! Open-mindedness is only an excuse for accepting inferior,
> WEAK music.
The only thing is that you may be limiting yourself by creating
artificial barriers and not leaving yourself at least open to the
possibility that some musical or artistic endeavor is going to
completely rock your little world (and the horse you rode in on).
Removing limits is the only way you can ever even begin to progress as a
human being.
m_c...@geocities.com
David James Vairinhos <s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> wrote:
> I think you people like to be on the outside looking in. Is it a crime to
> listen to something if it's popular?
By chance, no - if "BECAUSE" its popular, then yes, it's a crime (at least it
OUGHT to be...)
And I think most right-thinking people would want to be outside the whole
judeo-xian consumerism-society that mainstream america keeps ramming down the
throats and up the asses of everyone every day.
> And Dimmu Borgir & C.O.F can actually
> play, unlike Mayhem or Ulver.
Being able to play and being able to write decent music have nothing to do
with each other. Case in point - every album put out on Shrapnel records.
Maybe Dummy Burger and CoF CAN play - so what? They can't write good black
metal like Mayhem (or at least like Mayhem USED to...).
> And one of Ulver recordings WAS recorded
> outside; or Century Black lied in the "Firestarter" Compilation credits.
Nobody's ever lied in album credits...
Vic
m_c...@geocities.com
Annatar Gorthaur <maar...@lx.student.wau.nl> wrote:
> What's this?? Has this newsgroup changed its mentality or something?
> Whining about "snobbery"?
>
> To keep metal fresh, innovative, youthful and ALIVE we have to REJECT
> the bad stuff! Open-mindedness is only an excuse for accepting inferior,
> WEAK music.
Finally, a chance to say something I've been thinking for some time - most
peopel think being open-minded means you have to LIKE everything, or ACCEPT
it - this is FALSE!!!!111! Being open-minded only means that you consider or
evaluate everything without preconceived notions - then reject the shit. If
you consider all and reject nothing, you're nothing more than an intellectual
septic tank.
>I say, NO FUCKING COMPROMISE. If stuff is bad, kick it out.
> Leave it. Reject it. BURN IT (or, trade it to some judeo-christian,
> which is essentially the same as burning it).
> If you feel looked-down upon by that, that's your problem and your
> fault.
>
> HAIL BLACK METAL: EXTREME MUSIC FOR EXTREME MINDS
Hear hear!!!
Open your mind - Listen to RAMPAGE - "THIS END UP" out NOW on Unsung Heroes
Records
http://www.mindspring.com/~lordvic/uhr/
Lord Vic
Sybren
<s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> wrote:
>I think you people like to be on the outside looking in.
Explain, please. Where am I being an 'outsider looking in'?
Looks more like you're just taking a glimpse through the porthole...
>Is it a crime to
>listen to something if it's popular?
No, what does this have to do with popularity? I object against bands
that are derivative and superficial. You'll never hear me complain
against pre-'87 Iron Maiden or old Slayer, when those were at their
peak of popularity.
>And Dimmu Borgir & C.O.F can actually
>play
Examples? Take a good listen to Dimmu Borgir, and check out the rather
simple riffs, predictable drumming and the plagiarized (see
http://www.intercom.no/~kulde ) synths. And then listen to CoF, who
had (Nicolas left the band) a great drummer, a stream of competent
synth players, but fairly average guitarists and a striking lack of
variation.
>unlike Mayhem or Ulver.
Uhm, listen again. No, they're not using sugar-coated synths to dress
up rock'n'roll patterns. Hopefully I won't have to point out that
Hellhammer is hands down the best BM drummer since 1990, Euronymous
was a good guitar player ("Life Eternal", anyone?), and Dead was a
fucking lunatic on vocals. Mayhem and Ulver might not be the best
Black Metal bands around (I'd take Burzum, Darkthrone, Immortal or
Graveland over them any day), but calling them incompetent while
praising DB and CoF is plain silly.
>And one of Ulver recordings WAS recorded
>outside; or Century Black lied in the "Firestarter" Compilation credits.
Hmm well apparently it really was CM who spread those rumours. Face
it, the band themselves have stated in interviews that this was not
true. Besides, anyone can hear that the whole "Nattens Madrigal" album
was recorded in one studio, the guitar sound is identical on all
songs.
>Sheep mentality, Jesus.
Yep. Sheep mentality - of course. How dare I criticize the hype of the
day! I should've known I wouldn't get away with it. Sheesh...
>Get therapy, friend...
First get me a somewhat in-depth review on why Dimmu Borgir and Cradle
of Filth are so much better than Ulver and Mayhem (no, just saying the
production work is more polished and the songs are easier to whistle
along to doesn't suffice), and then we can have a useful discussion.
Up to now, you're just yelling "it's crap" without being able to back
it up - AND getting personal with ludicrous insults.
Sybren
Annatar Gorthaur
>
> Annatar Gorthaur wrote:
> >
> > What's this?? Has this newsgroup changed its mentality or something?
> > Whining about "snobbery"?
> >
> > To keep metal fresh, innovative, youthful and ALIVE we have to REJECT
> > the bad stuff! Open-mindedness is only an excuse for accepting inferior,
> > WEAK music.
>
> artificial barriers
I am not creating artificial barriers! I am only making a choice. I'm
not talking about whether something should be black metal or not, I am
talking about things that are GOOD and things that are not. I am a
critical person; weak music gets into the dustbin. Good/worthwhile music
(Art), be it black metal, ambient, or symfo rock or what-fucking-ever,
gets not. I refuse to use the word "open-mindedness" for that;
"open-mindedness" means "accepting things other than that you already
know, just for the sake of that acceptance".
> and not leaving yourself at least open to the
> possibility that some musical or artistic endeavor is going to
> completely rock your little world (and the horse you rode in on).
??
> Removing limits is the only way you can ever even begin to progress as a
> human being.
Who talked about limits? All I wish is art instead of entertainment, and
music instead of a product.
Annatar Gorthaur
Sybren
<wd_ru...@bc.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>I like Dimmu Borgir and DarkThrone(substituting for Graveland, because I
>have never heard Graveland)
Get out and buy "Following The Voice of Blood" NOW!
>obviously for different reasons. But why
>can't you like one thing for it's musical values, and like something
>else for its artistic, musical and political values? I mean, if I like
>Dimmu Borgir, I like it because it has a great sound, excellent riffs
>and tight playing. However I like DarkThrone because of the emotion,
>ideals and sound of the music which makes an impact in a different way.
>Dimmu is like listening to Cannibal Corpse, fun to listen to but not
>anything that will make a change in the way you think(and I am not
>saying this is bad, in fact, it's good, sometimes you just need to relax
>and listen to something that doesn't exhaust you!)
Now THIS is a sensible post, and THIS is the reason why I still pull
out "Enthrone Darkness Triumphant", "Vempire", "Heartwork", Snoop
Doggy Dogg or local Top 40 radio - entertainment can be enjoyable
depending on your state of mind, and I can appreciate a blatantly
commercial popsong - but I won't confuse it with art.
Sybren
John Chedsey
> > What's this?? Has this newsgroup changed its mentality or something?
> > Whining about "snobbery"?
> >
> > To keep metal fresh, innovative, youthful and ALIVE we have to REJECT
> > the bad stuff! Open-mindedness is only an excuse for accepting inferior,
> > WEAK music.
>
> peopel think being open-minded means you have to LIKE everything, or ACCEPT
> it - this is FALSE!!!!111! Being open-minded only means that you consider or
> evaluate everything without preconceived notions - then reject the shit. If
> you consider all and reject nothing, you're nothing more than an intellectual
> septic tank.
Well said! This is precisely what I've been trying to get at!
Ninnghizhidda
wrote:
>Annatar Gorthaur wrote:
>>
>> What's this?? Has this newsgroup changed its mentality or something?
>> Whining about "snobbery"?
>>
>> To keep metal fresh, innovative, youthful and ALIVE we have to REJECT
>> the bad stuff! Open-mindedness is only an excuse for accepting inferior,
>> WEAK music.
>
>The only thing is that you may be limiting yourself by creating
>artificial barriers and not leaving yourself at least open to the
>possibility that some musical or artistic endeavor is going to
>completely rock your little world (and the horse you rode in on).
>Removing limits is the only way you can ever even begin to progress as a
>human being.
non-sequitur, since what you said has nothing to do with what he said.
-Daemonic
"Saved is the spirit kingdom’s flower
From evil and the grave:
'Who ever strives with all his power,
We are allowed to save.'"
-Goethe, "Faust"
myles robert hamilton
On Mon, 8 Mar 1999 kcufs...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
> > > Anyway, at the end of the day
> > > the only important thing is for people to listen to whatever floats
> > > their boat. I'm speaking generally here, not about the above poster.
> > > There's too much fucking snobbery when it comes to people's tastes in
> > > music, with some cunts saying "if you like Graveland you can't like
> > > Dimmu Borgir," or "if you like Skrewdriver you can't like Frank
> > > Sinatra," or wotever. It's bloody ridiculous.
> > >
> > I agree. Interpretation of music is such an intensly personal
> > matter that the judgements of others do not really have practical
> > significance.
>
> No one is telling anyone what to like, but there are some of us here who have
> come to the realization that some of this stuff is entertainment, and some is
> art, and never the twain will meet because they have contradictory objectives.
And there are some of us who could care less what the artist's
objectives may or may not have be, being content that the only thing
that matters is that we can find our own interpretive value in a work.
> Hence while all of what you say above looks good and all, it's very intensely
> useless to understanding music at all, and seems to me more self-righteous
> wanking than actual contribution.
Self-righteous? hardly.
If what others say doesn't matter, why are
> you jumping up to the bait?
...because I am voicing my opinion regarding the nature of the
relationship between art and audience in an attempt to point out that
objective claims of worth in the artistic world have a very limited
capacity.
> There's truth in the idea that to like Graveland
> and Dimmu Borgir, you're deceived on one end of the equation.
>
Bullshit. I thought that you appreciated Dimmu Borgir's earlier
works, anyway (granted their newer stuff does suck). Do you think that
the mentality of the band has shifted very much from the times they were
producing "art" to the latest barrage of "entertainment"? Don't you find
it a little bit odd that all of these bands (Dimmu, Emperor, Mayhem,
Behemoth, etc..) who were once thought to be driven by deep seeded
fundamental idealogy have turned out to be "whores" without a care in the
world for "art"? Perhaps you're the one who is decieved on one end of the
equation.
Melvin Slundersloth
AleX
> On Mon, 08 Mar 1999 16:38:28 -0800, Bill Russell
> <wd_ru...@bc.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >I like Dimmu Borgir and DarkThrone(substituting for Graveland, because I
> >have never heard Graveland)
>
> Get out and buy "Following The Voice of Blood" NOW!
>
why? It's very much your regular "Hammerheart" inspired epic album. They have
certainly lost their on "FTVOB". I like their raw stuff a lot, but these days
they are not exactly groundbreaking.
>
> >obviously for different reasons. But why
> >can't you like one thing for it's musical values, and like something
> >else for its artistic, musical and political values? I mean, if I like
> >Dimmu Borgir, I like it because it has a great sound, excellent riffs
> >and tight playing. However I like DarkThrone because of the emotion,
> >ideals and sound of the music which makes an impact in a different way.
> >Dimmu is like listening to Cannibal Corpse, fun to listen to but not
> >anything that will make a change in the way you think(and I am not
> >saying this is bad, in fact, it's good, sometimes you just need to relax
> >and listen to something that doesn't exhaust you!)
>
> Now THIS is a sensible post, and THIS is the reason why I still pull
> out "Enthrone Darkness Triumphant", "Vempire", "Heartwork", Snoop
> Doggy Dogg or local Top 40 radio - entertainment can be enjoyable
> depending on your state of mind, and I can appreciate a blatantly
> commercial popsong - but I won't confuse it with art.
>
> Sybren
"Vempire" was nowhere near "heartwork", just as it was nowhere near "EDT".
--
remove XYZ from my e-mail when replying!!!
korrozia...@yahoo.com
Alex Shterenberg
"I hate people. I think they should suffer as much as
possible, and therefore I'm into those old communist
dictatorships." -Euronymous, Mayhem
Sybren
<korroziaX...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Sybren wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 08 Mar 1999 16:38:28 -0800, Bill Russell
>> <wd_ru...@bc.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>> >I like Dimmu Borgir and DarkThrone(substituting for Graveland, because I
>> >have never heard Graveland)
>>
>> Get out and buy "Following The Voice of Blood" NOW!
>
>why? It's very much your regular "Hammerheart" inspired epic album.
Hmm, I don't see many similarities to epic-era Bathory at all.
>They have
>certainly lost their on "FTVOB". I like their raw stuff a lot, but these days
>they are not exactly groundbreaking.
Dunno about the new one, but 1000 Swords and FTVOB were quite unique
in sound and composition - "the raw stuff" kicks just as much ass :)
>"Vempire" was nowhere near "heartwork", just as it was nowhere near "EDT".
Ah come on! "Vempire" was short and fast enough to be cool :)
Sybren
kcufs...@my-dejanews.com
> I agree...To each his own. But the mentality of some of these people (Not
> saying you) I seriously question...:)
Hypocrite. If to each his own, then to us our own, correct? And if we all
live in our little worlds where every value is interpretation, as you
suggest, then we can just live in ours, right?
The intellect (or lack thereof) of you subhumans is less than interesting;
you're predictable, and predictably stupid. Fuck you, liar.
kcufs...@my-dejanews.com
> I think you people like to be on the outside looking in. Is it a crime to
> listen to something if it's popular?
No one here has ever said it is stupid to listen to something because it's
popular; we only object to it being fake. Your deliberate lack of reading
comprehension labels you as the coward fuckwad you are, sub-human piece of
shit who lies to breathe.
> And Dimmu Borgir & C.O.F can actually
> play, unlike Mayhem or Ulver.
Mayhem could play quite well, better than Dimmu Borgir, but if you'd every
been to Los Angeles you'd know that for every 20,000 technically brilliant
guitarists, one can write a song. Ulver play fine; that's not the problem
with Ulver. The problem with Ulver is that they're whores.
> And one of Ulver recordings WAS recorded
> outside; or Century Black lied in the "Firestarter" Compilation credits.
> Sheep mentality, Jesus. Get therapy, friend...
Yes, believe everything you read as literal, sheep, and don't bother to listen
to the album for your verification. Would you like some grass with that cud?
kcufs...@my-dejanews.com
> > So I suppose I've said
> > enough that it's obvious why my opinions are so extreme, by way of stating
> > the extreme loss to an individual of the depersonalizing anti-experience
that
> > is commodity entertainment.
>
> Generally when you see this statement and the word commodity anywhere in
> the text, you can betcha they're just talking out their hats.
Why? You have no reasons why; I'll tell you why not: commodity versus art is
an actual distinction, where you draw no distinctions. In the name of your
own self-justification as "open minded" you refuse to accept that which is
obvious, namely that some things are here from belief, and others simply to
be marking time. Art is about belief; it's about science; it's about
philosophy. Commercial music is about filling time and waiting for death
painlessly.
You wonder why punk failed, and drifted into endless emo clones? Because
they could not keep their culture alive. They could not articulate what was
serious and what wasn't, and so the nonserious stuff took over, and now it
all sounds the same and has the same thing to say and so will never escape
from sounding the same. Metal aims to correct that error. "To you, it's
closed-mindedness; to us, it's open-mindedness to the ideas behind metal
itself."
> If you look at music culture, there are going to be varying reactions to
> various music according to one's own preferences, life experiences and
> other variables.
Same thing to a murder. It means nothing. Most people are lying.
> While Nomeansno may create what I consider damn close
> to ultimate music in all terms: force of sonic power, deep lyrical
> insight, talent, emotion and so on, they may do nothing for you. Does
> that immediately devalue their music?
I have not ever claimed that it would. What I have claimed is that a
blatantly commercial band like Dimmu Borgir or Green Day has nothing to
communicate relative to an artistic band, hence I'd have to be fooling myself
to claim I get anything of value out of it. Claiming that it's
entertainment, well, anything can claim that, and so "to you" it must be
"valid" then. But I don't have need for those terms, only for what is art
and what is metal versus what is like the rest of it.
Let me spell it out for you again, numskull: Metal went underground for a
reason.
> No. The same argument can be
> applied to Dimmu Borgir. While they may not toe the black metal line
> and you may not agree with whatever is they're encroaching, what if
> someone has a deep, profound appreciation and is enlighted due to their
> music? Just because they don't adhere to Philosophy A, they are no
> longer of value to the world at large?
Because they do not adhere to the philosophy of art, they are part of the
denial circus, and not part of the solution. Not "just because they don't
adhere to philosophy A" dumbass but because they do not address the real
issues of art. They are cowards. As are you.
> Music is a deep emotional and
> damn near spiritual experience, but those experiences vary from person
> to person.
For sure, but entertainment never produces those experiences. If it "does,"
the "does" is illusion.
> There is simply no way one webradio DJ can make a blanket
> statement drawing concrete lines saying what does or doesn't have value.
Surely you jest - if he knows more than the rest, his words are more important
than theirs. Not only that, but he's in excellent company (Nietzsche, Joyce,
Delueze, Gibson, Burroughs, Milton, Faulkner, Jung and many more).
> And at the same time, what may on the surface appear to be "commodity"
> entertainment (hoo boy, that was a term that only contains meaning
> within this newsgroup) can possibly lead to something grand.
What may appear to be commodity entertainment might not be. However Dimmu
Borgir is.
> I think Richard Stuart hit the nail on the head about black metal
> snobbery. It's laughable anymore to see these attempts to create
> artificial and universal demands on what music should or shouldn't
> contain based entirely on your tastes.
You misstate the situation out of dishonesty again, you predictable faker.
Snobbery is trying to feel a self-valuation of higher than other things
through analysis of them as insufficient; this is ideological war in which
the egos don't matter. No one is creating artificial demands but we are
pointing out where commercial commodity entertainment fails to shoulder the
burden - and the beauty - of being art. "Taste" is another statement for a
lack of belief in ideology or thinking itself - says something about you,
doesn't it?
Liar.
kcufs...@my-dejanews.com
> > Musical and artistic are almost totally inseperable.
>
> I agree. And lyrical and artistic are mostly seperable.
Yes, but not artistic and intent, to which lyrical is an excellent clue set.
> You have to be careful of not "forcing" life experience. A lot of people are
> busy as bees, always pushing themselves into things, determined to seize "as
> much as they can" out of life. These people are also cheating themselves by
> putting a layer of artificiality on everything. Doing nothing is not
> necessarily meaningless or worthless.
This is similar to my critique of Buddhism for what it doesn't do correctly.
However, I think to some degree, life experience is forced upon us, and if
active in that context, a bit of forward pushing can help. I am the last
person in the world to believe that doing "nothing" is inherently
meaningless, but I am also aware of how doing nothing can be a form of
paralysis - as always in a world regulated by intent and connective actions,
doing nothing has many forms.
kcufs...@my-dejanews.com
Annatar Gorthaur <maar...@lx.student.wau.nl> wrote:
> What's this?? Has this newsgroup changed its mentality or something?
> Whining about "snobbery"?
>
> To keep metal fresh, innovative, youthful and ALIVE we have to REJECT
inferior,
> WEAK music. I say, NO FUCKING COMPROMISE. If stuff is [dishonest], kick it
out.
> Leave it. Reject it. BURN IT (or, trade it to some judeo-christian,
> which is essentially the same as burning it).
> If you feel looked-down upon by that, that's your problem and your
> fault.
>
> HAIL BLACK METAL: EXTREME MUSIC FOR EXTREME MINDS
I'm drinking to this guy now...
kcufs...@my-dejanews.com
> > What's this?? Has this newsgroup changed its mentality or something?
> > Whining about "snobbery"?
> >
> > To keep metal fresh, innovative, youthful and ALIVE we have to REJECT
> > the bad stuff! Open-mindedness is only an excuse for accepting inferior,
> > WEAK music.
>
> The only thing is that you may be limiting yourself by creating
> artificial barriers and not leaving yourself at least open to the
> possibility that some musical or artistic endeavor is going to
> completely rock your little world (and the horse you rode in on).
> Removing limits is the only way you can ever even begin to progress as a
> human being.
He's far beyond you. "Open-mindedness" is an artificiality in itself, where
understanding a judgment of intent is essential to processing information from
the outside world. Not only that, but he is leaving himself more open to
something knocking him flat on his ass with glee, as he has identified that
which possesses and angle to truth and therefore, what it is in art that makes
it epic, exceptional, and beautiful. You on the other hand see it as all the
same... a hopeless, unscientific view.
kcufs...@my-dejanews.com
> >I think you people like to be on the outside looking in.
>
> Explain, please. Where am I being an 'outsider looking in'?
>
> Looks more like you're just taking a glimpse through the porthole...
>
> >Is it a crime to
> >listen to something if it's popular?
>
> No, what does this have to do with popularity? I object against bands
> that are derivative and superficial. You'll never hear me complain
> against pre-'87 Iron Maiden or old Slayer, when those were at their
> peak of popularity.
I think this is an excellent point that few bring up: when metal's bands have
been popular, our support for them has not waned until a sell-out has
occurred.
> >And Dimmu Borgir & C.O.F can actually
> >play
>
> Examples? Take a good listen to Dimmu Borgir, and check out the rather
> simple riffs, predictable drumming and the plagiarized (see
> http://www.intercom.no/~kulde ) synths. And then listen to CoF, who
> had (Nicolas left the band) a great drummer, a stream of competent
> synth players, but fairly average guitarists and a striking lack of
> variation.
>
> >unlike Mayhem or Ulver.
>
> Uhm, listen again. No, they're not using sugar-coated synths to dress
> up rock'n'roll patterns. Hopefully I won't have to point out that
> Hellhammer is hands down the best BM drummer since 1990, Euronymous
> was a good guitar player ("Life Eternal", anyone?), and Dead was a
> fucking lunatic on vocals. Mayhem and Ulver might not be the best
> Black Metal bands around (I'd take Burzum, Darkthrone, Immortal or
> Graveland over them any day), but calling them incompetent while
> praising DB and CoF is plain silly.
>
> >And one of Ulver recordings WAS recorded
> >outside; or Century Black lied in the "Firestarter" Compilation credits.
>
> Hmm well apparently it really was CM who spread those rumours. Face
> it, the band themselves have stated in interviews that this was not
> true. Besides, anyone can hear that the whole "Nattens Madrigal" album
> was recorded in one studio, the guitar sound is identical on all
> songs.
>
> >Sheep mentality, Jesus.
>
> Yep. Sheep mentality - of course. How dare I criticize the hype of the
> day! I should've known I wouldn't get away with it. Sheesh...
>
> >Get therapy, friend...
>
> First get me a somewhat in-depth review on why Dimmu Borgir and Cradle
> of Filth are so much better than Ulver and Mayhem (no, just saying the
> production work is more polished and the songs are easier to whistle
> along to doesn't suffice), and then we can have a useful discussion.
> Up to now, you're just yelling "it's crap" without being able to back
> it up - AND getting personal with ludicrous insults.
>
> Sybren
Listen to this man.
kcufs...@my-dejanews.com
> And there are some of us who could care less what the artist's
> objectives may or may not have be, being content that the only thing
> that matters is that we can find our own interpretive value in a work.
If you are finding your "own" value, you are projecting. See W.S. Burroughs
parable of the man with the talking asshole.
> > Hence while all of what you say above looks good and all, it's very
intensely
> > useless to understanding music at all, and seems to me more self-righteous
> > wanking than actual contribution.
>
> Self-righteous? hardly.
You must be kidding or blind not to have seen how he is taking an assumption
of "higher ground" character by appealing to more visually egalitarian
principles.
> ...because I am voicing my opinion regarding the nature of the
> relationship between art and audience in an attempt to point out that
> objective claims of worth in the artistic world have a very limited
> capacity.
You are failing, because art is entirely based in objective claims, since it
exists to communicate. Name a great artist who agrees with you.
> Bullshit. I thought that you appreciated Dimmu Borgir's earlier
> works, anyway (granted their newer stuff does suck). Do you think that
> the mentality of the band has shifted very much from the times they were
> producing "art" to the latest barrage of "entertainment"?
Absolutely. Right after Stormblast. The changes are completely visible in
the music as well, with the rock n roll riffs and careless structure giving
rise to a very formulaic style.
> Don't you find
> it a little bit odd that all of these bands (Dimmu, Emperor, Mayhem,
> Behemoth, etc..) who were once thought to be driven by deep seeded
> fundamental idealogy have turned out to be "whores" without a care in the
> world for "art"? Perhaps you're the one who is decieved on one end of the
> equation.
Ah, so you are a "give up all hope, it's all just shit" type of person. I
think many start out driven by ideology and "grow up" or more accurately
"give up" when they see what they're up against. Don't forget, it's easier
not to believe in value...
kcufs...@my-dejanews.com
> > Get out and buy "Following The Voice of Blood" NOW!
>
> why? It's very much your regular "Hammerheart" inspired epic album. They have
> certainly lost their on "FTVOB". I like their raw stuff a lot, but these days
> they are not exactly groundbreaking.
"Hammerheart" is composed entirely differently, where FTVOB is an exploration
of folk ambient metal that although it can be self-indulgent "at times" is a
worthy masterpiece. "Hammerheart" to my mind is less exciting although he
does quite a lot of shit on there.
ChorazaiM
>I think you people like to be on the outside looking in. Is it a crime to
>listen to something if it's popular? And Dimmu Borgir & C.O.F can actually
>play, unlike Mayhem or Ulver. And one of Ulver recordings WAS recorded
>outside; or Century Black lied in the "Firestarter" Compilation credits.
>Sheep mentality, Jesus. Get therapy, friend...
While I'm no great fan of Ulver, they're certainly better
musicians than either Dimmu Borgir or Dradel of Shit...and for the
[insert number here] time, "Nattens Madrigal" was NOT recorded outside
- do you believe everything you fucking read ? Century Media linear
notes have about as much credibility as the bible...
<<< ChorazaiM >>>
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
:::::::::::: miaz...@hotmail.com ::::::::::::
::::::::::::::::: ICQ #611753 :::::::::::::::::
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
:::::::::::: LARM! metal database :::::::::::::
:::::: http://members.xoom.com/larm666/ :::::::
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
:::::: MEGIDDO - Apocalyptic Black Metal ::::::
::::: http://members.xoom.com/chorazaim/ ::::::
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
::::::: Legions of Lucifer/Ring of Evil :::::::
:::: http://members.tripod.com/~chorazaim/ ::::
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
ChorazaiM
<maar...@lx.student.wau.nl> spewed forth the following:
>What's this?? Has this newsgroup changed its mentality or something?
>Whining about "snobbery"?
Usually the only people who whine about "snobbery" are those
wanting to be a part of something they are obviously not - draw your
own conclusions...
Embrace snobbery, embrace elitism - fuck acceptance.
John Chedsey
John Chedsey
>
<snip-o-rama>
> Fuck you, liar.
Man, when that prozac runs out, it really runs out.
myles robert hamilton
On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 kcufs...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
> > And there are some of us who could care less what the artist's
> > objectives may or may not have be, being content that the only thing
> > that matters is that we can find our own interpretive value in a work.
>
> If you are finding your "own" value, you are projecting. See W.S. Burroughs
> parable of the man with the talking asshole.
What's the difference between that and doing what you do: ie.
seeking out art that already reflects your own values?
Taking a band like IMMORTAL...I think you are dead wrong in
assuming they stand for anything idealogical. Still, you continually read
your value system into their works and come away with an enlightening
experience. If you suddenly discovered that they are more interested in
fun than idealogy, would you then cease to appreciate their past work?
>
> > > Hence while all of what you say above looks good and all, it's very
> intensely
> > > useless to understanding music at all, and seems to me more self-righteous
> > > wanking than actual contribution.
> >
> > Self-righteous? hardly.
>
> You must be kidding or blind not to have seen how he is taking an assumption
> of "higher ground" character by appealing to more visually egalitarian
> principles.
He's just pointing out obvious bullshit where he sees it. He's
only "self-righteous" in the sense that he has more respect for what he
knows to be true than the garbage put forth by others (it has nothing to
do with personal gratification).
>
> > ...because I am voicing my opinion regarding the nature of the
> > relationship between art and audience in an attempt to point out that
> > objective claims of worth in the artistic world have a very limited
> > capacity.
>
> You are failing, because art is entirely based in objective claims, since it
> exists to communicate.
*Interpretation* of art (what we are talking about here) exists in
totally subjective claims, because the decryption of abstract symbolism
rarely follows patterns that can be objectively digested outside of a very
specific context.
> Name a great artist who agrees with you.
appeals to "authority" are gay (and i'm sure I don't have to tell
you how useless they are)
>
> > Bullshit. I thought that you appreciated Dimmu Borgir's earlier
> > works, anyway (granted their newer stuff does suck). Do you think that
> > the mentality of the band has shifted very much from the times they were
> > producing "art" to the latest barrage of "entertainment"?
>
> Absolutely. Right after Stormblast. The changes are completely visible in
> the music as well, with the rock n roll riffs and careless structure giving
> rise to a very formulaic style.
>
> > Don't you find
> > it a little bit odd that all of these bands (Dimmu, Emperor, Mayhem,
> > Behemoth, etc..) who were once thought to be driven by deep seeded
> > fundamental idealogy have turned out to be "whores" without a care in the
> > world for "art"? Perhaps you're the one who is decieved on one end of the
> > equation.
>
> Ah, so you are a "give up all hope, it's all just shit" type of person.
No, I'm an "ignore the shitty aspects and take want you want" type
of person. Why should I interact with art according to some predetermined
guidlines set by someone else?
I
> think many start out driven by ideology and "grow up" or more accurately
> "give up" when they see what they're up against. Don't forget, it's easier
> not to believe in value...
I think that if they were truly motivated by idealogy, a much
smaller percentage would have given up (and it would have taken a lot
longer for them to do so). The abrupt cash in by so many bands in the
scandinavian scene is just further proof that it was never really about
idealogy for 99% of the bands.
Melvin Slundersloth
kcufs...@my-dejanews.com
Well said. Nothing can escape its place in history, except innovation, which
will forever be immortal.
And then there are those who do not believe in innovation... poseurs, may the
ovens swallow them whole.
In article <MPG.1150f94f1...@news.freeserve.co.uk>,
rattl...@hotmail.com (The Rattler) wrote:
> In article <19990308192015...@ng69.aol.com>,
> aphe...@aol.com says...
> > What's needed is another return to black metal roots...the same roots
that
> > Euronymous first went in search of to start this whole thing: Hellhammer,
> > Celtic Frost, Venom. Black metal must be unholy, raw, and
powerful...otherwise
> > it's just boring...
>
> Oh rubbish. Why do you think that 99% of these "retro-black" bands are so
> bloody boring? No matter how hard you try you *can't* recapture the sound
> of an age, of a time, of a style of music. Trying would just be,
> essentially, attempting to be something you're not. Bands like Mayhem and
> Darkthrone took the old Frost/Venom style and added something to it.
> Bands like Graveland take that 2nd-wave style and add something to that.
> Fuck looking to the past, we need MORE bands who are going to progress
> Black Metal! Take it forward!
>
> Look at the new Emperor album. It draws so much influence from "it's
> roots" and tries so hard to evoke certain periods in metal history that
> it ends up sounding flat to these ears. It's idealist to expect that ALL
> bands could do something progressive/innovative with the genre, I know,
> but I'd MUCH rather see that than people trying to "go back to the roots
> of Black Metal" since, as Niefihilim and their ilk show, it just doesn't
> work, nine times out of ten...
>
> --
> "Frosty the Snowman
> Was peeing against the wind
> In a ravenstorm" - 'Immortal Haiku' by Annatar Gorthaur.
>
> *** UNDER THE BANNER OF FNOOGLE WE RIDE! ***
kcufs...@my-dejanews.com
> Usually the only people who whine about "snobbery" are those
> wanting to be a part of something they are obviously not - draw your
> own conclusions...
>
> Embrace snobbery, embrace elitism - fuck acceptance.
Democracy is the idea that compromise shows "higher character" and is
therefore more useful than results. Part of that Christian "I'm judged in
the next world" attitude.
David James Vairinhos
blasphemy...And tell me again that "Nattens Madrigal" wasn't recorded
outside, just once more....
Dreaming Neon Black,
-The "V" / The "G"
"As the curtain calls, and the cast recedes
I am all that was and all that will ever be,
In wither and repose this frayed chapter
now does close, and fade into Neon Black..."
-Warrel Dane
"Welcome To The Fall...(Of One Man's Sanity)"
s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca
hate...@yahoo.com
On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, ChorazaiM wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Mar 1999 00:31:19 -0330, David James Vairinhos
> <s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> spewed forth the following:
>
> >I think you people like to be on the outside looking in. Is it a crime to
> >listen to something if it's popular? And Dimmu Borgir & C.O.F can actually
> >play, unlike Mayhem or Ulver. And one of Ulver recordings WAS recorded
> >outside; or Century Black lied in the "Firestarter" Compilation credits.
> >Sheep mentality, Jesus. Get therapy, friend...
>
> While I'm no great fan of Ulver, they're certainly better
> musicians than either Dimmu Borgir or Dradel of Shit...and for the
> [insert number here] time, "Nattens Madrigal" was NOT recorded outside
> - do you believe everything you fucking read ? Century Media linear
> notes have about as much credibility as the bible...
>
>
David James Vairinhos
Dreaming Neon Black,
-The "V" / The "G"
"As the curtain calls, and the cast recedes
I am all that was and all that will ever be,
In wither and repose this frayed chapter
now does close, and fade into Neon Black..."
-Warrel Dane
"Welcome To The Fall...(Of One Man's Sanity)"
s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca
hate...@yahoo.com
On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 kcufs...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
> > I think you people like to be on the outside looking in. Is it a crime to
> > listen to something if it's popular?
>
> No one here has ever said it is stupid to listen to something because it's
> popular; we only object to it being fake. Your deliberate lack of reading
> comprehension labels you as the coward fuckwad you are, sub-human piece of
> shit who lies to breathe.
>
> > And Dimmu Borgir & C.O.F can actually
> > play, unlike Mayhem or Ulver.
>
> Mayhem could play quite well, better than Dimmu Borgir, but if you'd every
> been to Los Angeles you'd know that for every 20,000 technically brilliant
> guitarists, one can write a song. Ulver play fine; that's not the problem
> with Ulver. The problem with Ulver is that they're whores.
>
> > And one of Ulver recordings WAS recorded
> > outside; or Century Black lied in the "Firestarter" Compilation credits.
> > Sheep mentality, Jesus. Get therapy, friend...
>
> Yes, believe everything you read as literal, sheep, and don't bother to listen
> to the album for your verification. Would you like some grass with that cud?
>
>
>
mi...@my-dejanews.com
kcufs...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
> Well said. Nothing can escape its place in history, except innovation, which
> will forever be immortal.
>
> And then there are those who do not believe in innovation... poseurs, may the
> ovens swallow them whole.
>
> In article <MPG.1150f94f1...@news.freeserve.co.uk>,
> rattl...@hotmail.com (The Rattler) wrote:
> > In article <19990308192015...@ng69.aol.com>,
> > aphe...@aol.com says...
> > > What's needed is another return to black metal roots...the same roots
> that
> > > Euronymous first went in search of to start this whole thing: Hellhammer,
> > > Celtic Frost, Venom. Black metal must be unholy, raw, and
> powerful...otherwise
> > > it's just boring...
> >
> > Oh rubbish. Why do you think that 99% of these "retro-black" bands are so
> > bloody boring? No matter how hard you try you *can't* recapture the sound
> > of an age, of a time, of a style of music. Trying would just be,
> > essentially, attempting to be something you're not. Bands like Mayhem and
> > Darkthrone took the old Frost/Venom style and added something to it.
> > Bands like Graveland take that 2nd-wave style and add something to that.
> > Fuck looking to the past, we need MORE bands who are going to progress
> > Black Metal! Take it forward!
> >
All these "retro" bands (in all genres) smell like sell-outs to me. They look
back in history, find something that was popular and try to do the same thing
hoping to capture the fans of those previous bands. While it can be
entertaining to hear a new band doing an old favorite style, you're not going
to hear anything really innovative. They need to try to add something new to
the style to be original.
-mike
ChorazaiM
<s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> spewed forth the following:
>WHAT!? Are you suggesting the Bible is a fake!? Ye Gods, the
>blasphemy...And tell me again that "Nattens Madrigal" wasn't recorded
>outside, just once more....
Two places you should consider making your next stay at :
1) alt.music.not-black-metal-but-close-enough-for-us
2) the ovens
conti...@hotmail.com
miaz...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 07:18:34 -0330, David James Vairinhos
> <s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> spewed forth the following:
>
> >WHAT!? Are you suggesting the Bible is a fake!? Ye Gods, the
> >blasphemy...And tell me again that "Nattens Madrigal" wasn't recorded
> >outside, just once more....
>
> Two places you should consider making your next stay at :
>
> 1) alt.music.not-black-metal-but-close-enough-for-us
>
> 2) the ovens
Don't forget to shower first!
>
> <<< ChorazaiM >>>
>
> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
> :::::::::::: miaz...@hotmail.com ::::::::::::
> ::::::::::::::::: ICQ #611753 :::::::::::::::::
> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
> :::::::::::: LARM! metal database :::::::::::::
> :::::: http://members.xoom.com/larm666/ :::::::
> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
> :::::: MEGIDDO - Apocalyptic Black Metal ::::::
> ::::: http://members.xoom.com/chorazaim/ ::::::
> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
> ::::::: Legions of Lucifer/Ring of Evil :::::::
> :::: http://members.tripod.com/~chorazaim/ ::::
> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Ninnghizhidda
>> Usually the only people who whine about "snobbery" are those
>> wanting to be a part of something they are obviously not - draw your
>> own conclusions...
>>
>> Embrace snobbery, embrace elitism - fuck acceptance.
>
>Democracy is the idea that compromise shows "higher character" and is
>therefore more useful than results. Part of that Christian "I'm judged in
>the next world" attitude.
democracy is not about "compromise", but majority opinion.
in other words, democracy _operates_ in the ways that the masses
always win. what is the intent behind it? hmm -- perhaps it is as you
say, but i see a lot of useless romanticizing of the position of "the
common man" (e.g. aesthetics).
Ninnghizhidda
<mrha...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 kcufs...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
>> > And there are some of us who could care less what the artist's
>> > objectives may or may not have be, being content that the only thing
>> > that matters is that we can find our own interpretive value in a work.
>>
>> If you are finding your "own" value, you are projecting. See W.S. Burroughs
>> parable of the man with the talking asshole.
>
> What's the difference between that and doing what you do: ie.
>seeking out art that already reflects your own values?
i think this is...a misunderstanding, as i do not believe this
neccesarily goes on.
>> Ah, so you are a "give up all hope, it's all just shit" type of person.
>
> No, I'm an "ignore the shitty aspects and take want you want" type
>of person. Why should I interact with art according to some predetermined
>guidlines set by someone else?
it is wholly possible that something within the definition of art
implies that you go about it in a certain way or ways.
"who says i have to walk when i want to go somewhere? why cant i fly?"
> I
>> think many start out driven by ideology and "grow up" or more accurately
>> "give up" when they see what they're up against. Don't forget, it's easier
>> not to believe in value...
>
> I think that if they were truly motivated by idealogy, a much
>smaller percentage would have given up (and it would have taken a lot
>longer for them to do so). The abrupt cash in by so many bands in the
>scandinavian scene is just further proof that it was never really about
>idealogy for 99% of the bands.
(tangential)
i think it is worth stating that many people are confused, ideology or
none. theoretically, all would become less confused over infinite
time, but in real life, a lot of people get caught up in the money
machine before they've been able to transcend it.
David James Vairinhos
Dreaming Neon Black,
-The "V" / The "G"
"As the curtain calls, and the cast recedes
I am all that was and all that will ever be,
In wither and repose this frayed chapter
now does close, and fade into Neon Black..."
-Warrel Dane
"Welcome To The Fall...(Of One Man's Sanity)"
s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca
hate...@yahoo.com
al_di...@my-dejanews.com
John Chedsey <kraz...@peakpeak.com> wrote:
> kcufs...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> <snip-o-rama>
> > Fuck you, liar.
>
> Man, when that prozac runs out, it really runs out.
/|\
|
|
knee-jerk?
are you really old? you have a really gay sense of humor.
al_di...@my-dejanews.com
> democracy is not about "compromise", but majority opinion.
in theory.
> in other words, democracy _operates_ in the ways that the masses
> always win. what is the intent behind it? hmm -- perhaps it is as you
> say, but i see a lot of useless romanticizing of the position of "the
> common man" (e.g. aesthetics).
who romanticizes the position of 'the common man' ?
perhaps some people are being conditioned to *be* common
aw shit now i'm all paranoid
give me more
John Chedsey
>
> In article <36E6304C...@peakpeak.com>,
> John Chedsey <kraz...@peakpeak.com> wrote:
> > kcufs...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > >
> > <snip-o-rama>
> > > Fuck you, liar.
> >
> > Man, when that prozac runs out, it really runs out.
>
> /|\
> |
> |
> knee-jerk?
>
> are you really old? you have a really gay sense of humor.
|
|
Unoriginal and hardly thought out? Go socialize with the rest of the
bores.
jc_...@excite.com
kcufs...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
> > I think you people like to be on the outside looking in. Is it a crime to
> > listen to something if it's popular?
>
> No one here has ever said it is stupid to listen to something because it's
> popular; we only object to it being fake.
Speaking of fake, ain't you the asshole who has posted under a dozen
pseudonymns and spend much of your time forging and faking identities? YOu
have no fucking right to be criticizing anyone else when you can't even use
your own name. You are the biggest faker here, you goddamned liar.
> Your deliberate lack of reading
> comprehension labels you as the coward fuckwad you are, sub-human piece of
> shit who lies to breathe.
You're the fucking coward. you wooldn't ever say any of this shit to anyone's
face as you are too glued to your computer to even confront life in any form.
Yet you sit on your perch, pretending and lieing.
>. The problem with Ulver is that they're whores.
You're the only whore here, taking the black metal name and pretending to be
part of it with clever rhetoric.
J. Colby
David James Vairinhos
Peace! :)
Dreaming Neon Black,
-The "V" / The "G"
"As the curtain calls, and the cast recedes
I am all that was and all that will ever be,
In wither and repose this frayed chapter
now does close, and fade into Neon Black..."
-Warrel Dane
"Welcome To The Fall...(Of One Man's Sanity)"
s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca
hate...@yahoo.com
David James Vairinhos
beaten. (Snicker) All I see is a guy who hides behind terrible
philosophies (That he no doubt overheard from some-one else) and covers
his ignorance by using $5.00 words and pretending to know what they mean.
Sad, really....:(
Dreaming Neon Black,
-The "V" / The "G"
"As the curtain calls, and the cast recedes
I am all that was and all that will ever be,
In wither and repose this frayed chapter
now does close, and fade into Neon Black..."
-Warrel Dane
"Welcome To The Fall...(Of One Man's Sanity)"
s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca
hate...@yahoo.com
myles robert hamilton
On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Ninnghizhidda wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:37:53 -0600, myles robert hamilton
> <mrha...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 kcufs...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >>
> >> > And there are some of us who could care less what the artist's
> >> > objectives may or may not have be, being content that the only thing
> >> > that matters is that we can find our own interpretive value in a work.
> >>
> >> If you are finding your "own" value, you are projecting. See W.S. Burroughs
> >> parable of the man with the talking asshole.
> >
> > What's the difference between that and doing what you do: ie.
> >seeking out art that already reflects your own values?
>
> i think this is...a misunderstanding, as i do not believe this
> neccesarily goes on.
what do you think happens, then? When you buy a Graveland cd, you
don't have some idea of what kind of values are going to be put forth?
When you reject crap like Mortification, isn't it on the basis of
inferior philosophy (ie..values that stand in oppossition to your own)?
Many people have already gone as far as to define what metal
_should_ be...anti-authority, anti-control, etc. With this in mind, isn't
it logical to conclude that, when someone consciously purchases a metal cd
under this mindset, they are expecting something that contains an
anti-control message (or else they wouldn't be seeking metal)?
>
> >> Ah, so you are a "give up all hope, it's all just shit" type of person.
> >
> > No, I'm an "ignore the shitty aspects and take want you want" type
> >of person. Why should I interact with art according to some predetermined
> >guidlines set by someone else?
>
> it is wholly possible that something within the definition of art
> implies that you go about it in a certain way or ways.
Only if you concern yourself with definitions (and feel the need
to rigidly follow them) The radio was origionally designed for
communication with ships at sea. One day, some guy started playing
records and broadcasting music with it, thereby entirely transforming its
function in spite of the use its creators had designated it for. Is the
latter use less worthy because it ignores the designer's intentions?
>
> > I
> >> think many start out driven by ideology and "grow up" or more accurately
> >> "give up" when they see what they're up against. Don't forget, it's easier
> >> not to believe in value...
> >
> > I think that if they were truly motivated by idealogy, a much
> >smaller percentage would have given up (and it would have taken a lot
> >longer for them to do so). The abrupt cash in by so many bands in the
> >scandinavian scene is just further proof that it was never really about
> >idealogy for 99% of the bands.
>
> (tangential)
>
> i think it is worth stating that many people are confused, ideology or
> none.
I second that.
> theoretically, all would become less confused over infinite
> time,
??? ..not with ambiguous statements like that ;)
> but in real life, a lot of people get caught up in the money
> machine before they've been able to transcend it.
that may be so, but if these black metal bands had ever truly
transcended the money machine, they would have never sold out in the first
place. There are very _few_ metal bands who function on the basis of
coherent, fundamental idealogy...and amongst those there are even fewer
who's thoughts are worth a damn in the first place.
Melvin Slundersloth
Ninnghizhidda
>> in other words, democracy _operates_ in the ways that the masses
>> always win. what is the intent behind it? hmm -- perhaps it is as you
>> say, but i see a lot of useless romanticizing of the position of "the
>> common man" (e.g. aesthetics).
>
> who romanticizes the position of 'the common man' ?
why does democracy exist?
so that "the common man" can stop being oppressed by the elite.
because "the common man" knows better where the country should go.
other uselessness...
> perhaps some people are being conditioned to *be* common
perhaps.
N. Evermind
Ninnghizhidda wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:37:53 -0600, myles robert hamilton
> <mrha...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 kcufs...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >>
> >> > And there are some of us who could care less what the artist's
> >> > objectives may or may not have be, being content that the only thing
> >> > that matters is that we can find our own interpretive value in a work.
> >>
> >> If you are finding your "own" value, you are projecting. See W.S. Burroughs
> >> parable of the man with the talking asshole.
> >
> > What's the difference between that and doing what you do: ie.
> >seeking out art that already reflects your own values?
>
> i think this is...a misunderstanding, as i do not believe this
> neccesarily goes on.
I don't see the relevance of this. What does "art already reflecting your own
values" have to do with projecting your own value? If you are indeed projecting
your own value (interpreting), why care what values it is meant to reflect?
> >> Ah, so you are a "give up all hope, it's all just shit" type of person.
> >
> > No, I'm an "ignore the shitty aspects and take want you want" type
> >of person. Why should I interact with art according to some predetermined
> >guidlines set by someone else?
>
> it is wholly possible that something within the definition of art
> implies that you go about it in a certain way or ways.
Which becomes a tautology if one acknowledges that there is no universal definition
of art and bases his definition precisely on the way "I interact with art".
And then you say that I'm missing the point, and then it becomes a horrible deja
vu...I still have to get around to that old post.
> "who says i have to walk when i want to go somewhere? why cant i fly?"
If art were as well defined and as universal as the "limits of human capability",
there wouldn't be this problem at all.
> > I
> >> think many start out driven by ideology and "grow up" or more accurately
> >> "give up" when they see what they're up against. Don't forget, it's easier
> >> not to believe in value...
> >
> > I think that if they were truly motivated by idealogy, a much
> >smaller percentage would have given up (and it would have taken a lot
> >longer for them to do so). The abrupt cash in by so many bands in the
> >scandinavian scene is just further proof that it was never really about
> >idealogy for 99% of the bands.
I don't think ideology the way it is meant here implies that Immortal sit down and
specifically think about making music that is "postmodernist with life-affirming
dissonant melody....blah blah..." It just comes about due to the nature of the
creators and their beliefs and values. At least that's the impression I get from
the "beyond commodification/aesthetics" crusaders.
"Crusaders" is an endearment, if you wish to believe so. :)
> (tangential)
>
> i think it is worth stating that many people are confused, ideology or
> none. theoretically, all would become less confused over infinite
> time,
All should become crystal clear over infinite time, or no clearer at all!
> but in real life, a lot of people get caught up in the money
> machine before they've been able to transcend it.
That is sincerely my aim in life right now: making as much money as possible. I
wanna get some Therion and MDB CDs.
> -Daemonic
>
> "Saved is the spirit kingdom’s flower
> From evil and the grave:
> 'Who ever strives with all his power,
> We are allowed to save.'"
> -Goethe, "Faust"
--
- NkbaTobmeAztacCromos (nevermind)
New email!!! 97s...@my-dejanews.com
Email now for free reply!!!
Satisfaction guarenteed!!!
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kcufs...@my-dejanews.com
> > > <snip-o-rama>
> > > > Fuck you, liar.
> > >
> > > Man, when that prozac runs out, it really runs out.
> >
> > /|\
> > |
> > |
> > knee-jerk?
> >
> > are you really old? you have a really gay sense of humor.
> /|\
> |
> |
> Unoriginal and hardly thought out? Go socialize with the rest of the
> bores.
Are you describing your sense of humour in the first sentence, and your
desires for interaction with USENET in the second? Funny how the shit you
sling paints you best.
kcufs...@my-dejanews.com
> > democracy is not about "compromise", but majority opinion.
>
> in theory.
>
> > in other words, democracy _operates_ in the ways that the masses
> > always win. what is the intent behind it? hmm -- perhaps it is as you
> > say, but i see a lot of useless romanticizing of the position of "the
> > common man" (e.g. aesthetics).
>
> who romanticizes the position of 'the common man' ?
> perhaps some people are being conditioned to *be* common
> aw shit now i'm all paranoid
One is right to be paranoid in this world of public ideals and private
motives. Democracy is crap. So is religion and government. Mainstream
control of thought process to avoid that which is feared. Hence, Satan.
kcufs...@my-dejanews.com
> > Your deliberate lack of reading
> > comprehension labels you as the coward fuckwad you are, sub-human piece of
> > shit who lies to breathe.
>
> You're the fucking coward. you wooldn't ever say any of this shit to anyone's
> face as you are too glued to your computer to even confront life in any form.
> Yet you sit on your perch, pretending and lieing.
I say this shit to people all the time, face to face. Speak about lying...
> >. The problem with Ulver is that they're whores.
>
> You're the only whore here, taking the black metal name and pretending to be
> part of it with clever rhetoric.
You seem to have misunderstood my motives, which are academic and not
personal. Now do you have anything of value to post, or only insults? If
the latter...
John Chedsey
>
> > > Your deliberate lack of reading
> > > comprehension labels you as the coward fuckwad you are, sub-human piece of
> > > shit who lies to breathe.
> >
> > You're the fucking coward. you wooldn't ever say any of this shit to anyone's
> > face as you are too glued to your computer to even confront life in any form.
> > Yet you sit on your perch, pretending and lieing.
>
> I say this shit to people all the time, face to face. Speak about lying...
>
> > >. The problem with Ulver is that they're whores.
> >
> > You're the only whore here, taking the black metal name and pretending to be
> > part of it with clever rhetoric.
>
> You seem to have misunderstood my motives, which are academic and not
> personal. Now do you have anything of value to post, or only insults? If
> the latter...
Sounds like someone took on your tactics to a cruder value.
Do you really talk this way to people in real life? I just have my
doubts. For someone who has such a history of forgery and the safety of
anonymity via alias behind the keyboard, it just doesn't seem likely
that this stretches outside the realm.
I disagree with his assessment of your association with black metal, but
the rather vulgar post does point out that someone who has engaged in
much fraud in Usenet is not necessarily going to have as much truck with
those who know the history. I personally just find wild amusement in
reading your posts, as they seem like nothing but someone who is looking
to get people all riled up at the other end. Once you wade through the
language and tactics, it really isn't anything BUT amusement.
kcufs...@my-dejanews.com
> Sounds like someone took on your tactics to a cruder value.
Not interesting, if so, as they've missed the WHY.
> Do you really talk this way to people in real life? I just have my
> doubts.
Yep. I talk to people this way about every day of my life. And have for
many years now. I am not one to mince words, but I've never had problems
with people attempting to beat the shit out of me. I think they sense an
inherent abstraction to my arguments and are contented with treating them as
impersonal input (unlike USENET, where "everything is personal" to most
people).
Ninnghizhidda
<mrha...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Ninnghizhidda wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:37:53 -0600, myles robert hamilton
>> <mrha...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 kcufs...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > And there are some of us who could care less what the artist's
>> >> > objectives may or may not have be, being content that the only thing
>> >> > that matters is that we can find our own interpretive value in a work.
>> >>
>> >> If you are finding your "own" value, you are projecting. See W.S. Burroughs
>> >> parable of the man with the talking asshole.
>> >
>> > What's the difference between that and doing what you do: ie.
>> >seeking out art that already reflects your own values?
>>
>> i think this is...a misunderstanding, as i do not believe this
>> neccesarily goes on.
>
> what do you think happens, then? When you buy a Graveland cd, you
>don't have some idea of what kind of values are going to be put forth?
"some idea" is different from "seeking out...", as it implies some
similar concepts as opposed to _being the same_.
>When you reject crap like Mortification, isn't it on the basis of
>inferior philosophy (ie..values that stand in oppossition to your own)?
some say it's not art. :)
> Many people have already gone as far as to define what metal
>_should_ be...anti-authority, anti-control, etc. With this in mind, isn't
>it logical to conclude that, when someone consciously purchases a metal cd
>under this mindset, they are expecting something that contains an
>anti-control message (or else they wouldn't be seeking metal)?
the point is that there is a large range, even within some guidelines
(e.g. "anti-control"), to innovate within. when you say "i want
something that includes X", that is different from saying "i want X".
>> >> Ah, so you are a "give up all hope, it's all just shit" type of person.
>> >
>> > No, I'm an "ignore the shitty aspects and take want you want" type
>> >of person. Why should I interact with art according to some predetermined
>> >guidlines set by someone else?
>>
>> it is wholly possible that something within the definition of art
>> implies that you go about it in a certain way or ways.
>
> Only if you concern yourself with definitions (and feel the need
>to rigidly follow them)
why communicate with another in a language he understands? unless you
need to follow the implied definition of communication -- e.g. the
other person should understand what you are trying to communicate.
obviously it would seem there is some value to be found in
"definitions" -- we dont rigidly follow things for their own sake, do
we?
"well, why should i follow the definition of art then?"
"you dont have to."
we've _been_ here before!
>The radio was origionally designed for
>communication with ships at sea. One day, some guy started playing
>records and broadcasting music with it, thereby entirely transforming its
>function in spite of the use its creators had designated it for. Is the
>latter use less worthy because it ignores the designer's intentions?
bad analogy, because "radio" is a mechanical/technological device --
it is used to send radio waves. the fact that it was originally used
for one purpose or another is irrelevant.
in this perspective, radio is a means and music is an end.
music was perhaps originally meant as a part of a religious ceremony
(e.g. appeasement of the gods). since the medium itself is a means,
we're obviously not concerned about it's original use -- are we?
the "nature" of a means cannot be defined by it's creator, as it
exists outside of that.
the "nature" of art is defined by the creator, since it has a
"purpose" of sorts, and since it is objective (e.g. "the music is
there"), it cannot change in the middle.
"why did you send that radio signal?"
"i wanted a rescue ship..."
"no, no, i think you wanted to end your message with 'over', like in
all those movies."
>> theoretically, all would become less confused over infinite
>> time,
>
> ??? ..not with ambiguous statements like that ;)
i mean, once a person starts becoming "non-confused", the end point of
that process will be reached at some time -- thus, over an infinite
period, all people "confused" but progressing would ultimately become
"unconfused".
>> but in real life, a lot of people get caught up in the money
>> machine before they've been able to transcend it.
>
> that may be so, but if these black metal bands had ever truly
>transcended the money machine, they would have never sold out in the first
>place.
call it a relapse. perhaps they were coherent enough to do something
worthwhile, but not to protect themselves from regression.
>There are very _few_ metal bands who function on the basis of
>coherent, fundamental idealogy...
some people have ideologies without even knowing it.
>and amongst those there are even fewer
>who's thoughts are worth a damn in the first place.
that's another issue, but i think "thoughts" is a simplification of
things... (e.g. intellect / emotional dualism)
Ninnghizhidda
wrote:
>Ninnghizhidda wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:37:53 -0600, myles robert hamilton
>> <mrha...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 kcufs...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > And there are some of us who could care less what the artist's
>> >> > objectives may or may not have be, being content that the only thing
>> >> > that matters is that we can find our own interpretive value in a work.
>> >>
>> >> If you are finding your "own" value, you are projecting. See W.S. Burroughs
>> >> parable of the man with the talking asshole.
>> >
>> > What's the difference between that and doing what you do: ie.
>> >seeking out art that already reflects your own values?
>>
>> i think this is...a misunderstanding, as i do not believe this
>> neccesarily goes on.
>
>I don't see the relevance of this. What does "art already reflecting your own
>values" have to do with projecting your own value?
there is a tenuous connection, somewhere. the similarlity is that both
end up with the same thing, in the end -- the relevance of that is
another issue.
>If you are indeed projecting
>your own value (interpreting),
logical leap.
>> >> Ah, so you are a "give up all hope, it's all just shit" type of person.
>> >
>> > No, I'm an "ignore the shitty aspects and take want you want" type
>> >of person. Why should I interact with art according to some predetermined
>> >guidlines set by someone else?
>>
>> it is wholly possible that something within the definition of art
>> implies that you go about it in a certain way or ways.
>
>Which becomes a tautology if one acknowledges that there is no universal definition
>of art and bases his definition precisely on the way "I interact with art".
there is no universal definition of anything. luckily, there is a
utilitarian definition -- you would say that art can be anything (e.g.
up to the subject), so art = everything = irrelevant, and we discard
that definition for one which is meaningful, e.g. art = objective =
not everything.
>And then you say that I'm missing the point, and then it becomes a horrible deja
>vu...I still have to get around to that old post.
i'm surprised you still remember which old post you're talking about,
because...i dont.
forget about it. jeroen posted like 1000 old responses to me a while
ago, and i realized i had no clue about what we were speaking of in
the first place. context is important, it seems...
(hail context!)
>> "who says i have to walk when i want to go somewhere? why cant i fly?"
>
>If art were as well defined and as universal as the "limits of human capability",
>there wouldn't be this problem at all.
"well defined" is misleading. if i say "art is objective", that would
be as well defined as it needs to be -- and since "art is subjective"
makes a meaningless definition ("arent definitions supposed to give
things meaning?" "well, only if you rigidly follow the purpose of
definitions -- we 'interpret'!") we go for the former.
>> > I
>> >> think many start out driven by ideology and "grow up" or more accurately
>> >> "give up" when they see what they're up against. Don't forget, it's easier
>> >> not to believe in value...
>> >
>> > I think that if they were truly motivated by idealogy, a much
>> >smaller percentage would have given up (and it would have taken a lot
>> >longer for them to do so). The abrupt cash in by so many bands in the
>> >scandinavian scene is just further proof that it was never really about
>> >idealogy for 99% of the bands.
>
>I don't think ideology the way it is meant here implies that Immortal sit down and
>specifically think about making music that is "postmodernist with life-affirming
>dissonant melody....blah blah..." It just comes about due to the nature of the
>creators and their beliefs and values.
definitely. (though i will not apply that answer to immortal, since i
need more information and music and...)
"some people have an ideology without even knowing it." -me
>> (tangential)
>>
>> i think it is worth stating that many people are confused, ideology or
>> none. theoretically, all would become less confused over infinite
>> time,
>
>All should become crystal clear over infinite time, or no clearer at all!
yes.
Ninnghizhidda
>> ...because I am voicing my opinion regarding the nature of the
>> relationship between art and audience in an attempt to point out that
>> objective claims of worth in the artistic world have a very limited
>> capacity.
>
>You are failing, because art is entirely based in objective claims, since it
>exists to communicate. Name a great artist who agrees with you.
this is a tautology, because if you define "great artists" as "those
who disagree"...
James S Kang
> >Which becomes a tautology if one acknowledges that there is no universal definition
> >of art and bases his definition precisely on the way "I interact with art".
> there is no universal definition of anything. luckily, there is a
> utilitarian definition -- you would say that art can be anything (e.g.
> up to the subject), so art = everything
That's like saying that because a winning lottery number can be any number
between 000 and 999, *every* number between 000 and 999 is the winning lottery
number.
= irrelevant, and we discard
> that definition for one which is meaningful, e.g. art = objective =
> not everything.
Okay.
First, it is important that you acknowledge that it is a utilitarian
definition of art to be used by you, and not a universal definition that is
true for everyone.
Second, I don't use your utilitarian definition, because art is not a message
to me. Art is unique, not a method of accomplishing something else, such as
communication, although it's sometimes used to do so. It relays something,
but it does not "communicate" in the ways that speech and writing do. It is
often intellectual, while not necessarily verbalizable or emotional.
That definition is indeed hard to put into words, but that's because art
best speaks for itself and is generally not suited to verbalization.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Under a pale grey sky
We shall arise!"
--Sepultura
http://chaos.corrupt.net
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
myles robert hamilton
On Sat, 13 Mar 1999, Ninnghizhidda wrote:
> >> > What's the difference between that and doing what you do: ie.
> >> >seeking out art that already reflects your own values?
> >>
> >> i think this is...a misunderstanding, as i do not believe this
> >> neccesarily goes on.
> >
> > what do you think happens, then? When you buy a Graveland cd, you
> >don't have some idea of what kind of values are going to be put forth?
>
> "some idea" is different from "seeking out...", as it implies some
> similar concepts as opposed to _being the same_.
Personally, I think it's close enough...
>
> > Many people have already gone as far as to define what metal
> >_should_ be...anti-authority, anti-control, etc. With this in mind, isn't
> >it logical to conclude that, when someone consciously purchases a metal cd
> >under this mindset, they are expecting something that contains an
> >anti-control message (or else they wouldn't be seeking metal)?
>
> the point is that there is a large range, even within some guidelines
> (e.g. "anti-control"), to innovate within. when you say "i want
> something that includes X", that is different from saying "i want X".
The fundamental behavior is still the same..
>
> >> >> Ah, so you are a "give up all hope, it's all just shit" type of person.
> >> >
> >> > No, I'm an "ignore the shitty aspects and take want you want" type
> >> >of person. Why should I interact with art according to some predetermined
> >> >guidlines set by someone else?
> >>
> >> it is wholly possible that something within the definition of art
> >> implies that you go about it in a certain way or ways.
> >
> > Only if you concern yourself with definitions (and feel the need
> >to rigidly follow them)
>
> why communicate with another in a language he understands? unless you
> need to follow the implied definition of communication -- e.g. the
> other person should understand what you are trying to communicate.
>
> obviously it would seem there is some value to be found in
> "definitions" -- we dont rigidly follow things for their own sake, do
> we?
That's what I am trying to find out..
>
> "well, why should i follow the definition of art then?"
>
> "you dont have to."
>
> we've _been_ here before!
far too many times!
> the "nature" of a means cannot be defined by it's creator, as it
> exists outside of that.
How is art, being a form of communication that relies on codified
encryption and decryption, an end when something like language (also a
form of communication " " " " ..) is treated as a means?
>
> the "nature" of art is defined by the creator, since it has a
> "purpose" of sorts, and since it is objective (e.g. "the music is
> there"), it cannot change in the middle.
The radio also meets this criteria
> >> but in real life, a lot of people get caught up in the money
> >> machine before they've been able to transcend it.
> >
> > that may be so, but if these black metal bands had ever truly
> >transcended the money machine, they would have never sold out in the first
> >place.
>
> call it a relapse. perhaps they were coherent enough to do something
> worthwhile, but not to protect themselves from regression.
>
> >There are very _few_ metal bands who function on the basis of
> >coherent, fundamental idealogy...
>
> some people have ideologies without even knowing it.
I would seperate subconscious motivations from the term
"ideology", because the former implies some sort of reasoning or _choice_,
whereas subconscious motivations are rarely a product of the intellect.
>
Melvin Slundersloth
kcufs...@my-dejanews.com
> >> ...because I am voicing my opinion regarding the nature of the
> >> relationship between art and audience in an attempt to point out that
> >> objective claims of worth in the artistic world have a very limited
> >> capacity.
> >
> >You are failing, because art is entirely based in objective claims, since it
> >exists to communicate. Name a great artist who agrees with you.
>
> this is a tautology, because if you define "great artists" as "those
> who disagree"...
I think you're projecting that definition; I define great artists without
parameters, and then seek out why they're great, not vice-versa.
kcufs...@my-dejanews.com
> > >> > What's the difference between that and doing what you do: ie.
> > >> >seeking out art that already reflects your own values?
> > >>
> > >> i think this is...a misunderstanding, as i do not believe this
> > >> neccesarily goes on.
> > >
> > > what do you think happens, then? When you buy a Graveland cd, you
> > >don't have some idea of what kind of values are going to be put forth?
Art differs from normal communication in that it doesn't preach static
values, but a method of deriving those values. Art is about enhancing
perception, and not a static teleological objective as politics is. E.g.
when you put on a Graveland CD, you don't feel fascist - you perceive the
logic behind fascism where it is relevant to overall
communication/existence/language. Art is about shared experience, and the
interpretation thereof. I do not take Graveland seriously when they talk
about spreading a specific doctrine (N.S. ideology) through their music, but
find in the thought process behind their ideology as transferred to art a
useful interpretation of value.
> > "some idea" is different from "seeking out...", as it implies some
> > similar concepts as opposed to _being the same_.
>
> Personally, I think it's close enough...
People who seek out a particular agreement in art are commoditized. People
who seek out art - philosophically distinct from other forms of communication
- are making the only sensible decision. Anything else is control, and
controlling politics/propaganda are what teach helplessness and slavery.
> > > Many people have already gone as far as to define what metal
> > >_should_ be...anti-authority, anti-control, etc. With this in mind, isn't
> > >it logical to conclude that, when someone consciously purchases a metal cd
> > >under this mindset, they are expecting something that contains an
> > >anti-control message (or else they wouldn't be seeking metal)?
It's not about expecting a message - it's about where it innovates from
there. When I say ideology is a gateway, this is what I'm talking about.
Metal has always been individualist, anti-control, anti-god (the superstition
of centrality... "this must be connected, the world is working against me" -
superstition) but the difference between genres is how that is interpreted.
Death metal took it to ridiculous extremes of minimalism - black metal built
from that minimalism a thought process for the next century. These guys must
be viewed as mathematicians, scientists, artists in order to understand the
significance of what they do.
> > >> it is wholly possible that something within the definition of art
> > >> implies that you go about it in a certain way or ways.
> > >
> > > Only if you concern yourself with definitions (and feel the need
> > >to rigidly follow them)
> >
> > why communicate with another in a language he understands? unless you
> > need to follow the implied definition of communication -- e.g. the
> > other person should understand what you are trying to communicate.
> >
> > obviously it would seem there is some value to be found in
> > "definitions" -- we dont rigidly follow things for their own sake, do
> > we?
Definitions are just containers, tools like language, that allow establishment
of near-objective communication between thinking beings. What makes art
distinct is its ability to reach a higher communication through evasion of the
seeming "principles" of communication; art is about letting other people
perceive and understand of their own will, not pushing ideas on them.
> > the "nature" of a means cannot be defined by it's creator, as it
> > exists outside of that.
>
> How is art, being a form of communication that relies on codified
> encryption and decryption, an end when something like language (also a
> form of communication " " " " ..) is treated as a means?
An end as part of the process? The art itself is not the whole of the
process, but only the conduit for the virus. The artistic process is between
what the viewer perceives and what the creator perceives.
> > the "nature" of art is defined by the creator, since it has a
> > "purpose" of sorts, and since it is objective (e.g. "the music is
> > there"), it cannot change in the middle.
>
> The radio also meets this criteria
It cannot sell itself out. Like human life, you can either accept the
parameters of your existence and what they imply for growth or relapse into
the material, the obvious, the physical, the commodity for its power of
external control.
> > >> but in real life, a lot of people get caught up in the money
> > >> machine before they've been able to transcend it.
> > >
> > > that may be so, but if these black metal bands had ever truly
> > >transcended the money machine, they would have never sold out in the first
> > >place.
> >
> > call it a relapse. perhaps they were coherent enough to do something
> > worthwhile, but not to protect themselves from regression.
They're human too. At some point, they are tired of the intangibility of
ideology and often prefer the material. They are quite often beaten by their
industry, the people who like them, the people who hate them -- too much
negative stimulus, that needs to be purged from the head. THC is an excellent
agent, as is battle and the kind of physical, natural swordplay many of these
folks at least try to appear to favor.
Something like Dimmu Borgir: they started out trying to be an excellent black
metal band, as it called to them. When they produced their master opus,
Stormblast, they found they had done what they wanted but lacking any other
vision, they were at the end of their innovative rope. So after some
reshuffling of members, they became what their nostalgia dictated - a heavy
metal band - mixed with the black metal aesthetic in such a way that they
knew they'd do "better" in terms of sales, fans, merchandise and thus could
move into the lifestyle of being a black metal band in the media and as a
job, rather than working to support their lives and creating black metal to
live. That's why it's brilliant Fenriz is a postman - he has a mellow job,
and when he has inspiration, he creates.
> > >There are very _few_ metal bands who function on the basis of
> > >coherent, fundamental idealogy...
This is totally untrue. I should specify however that I'm talking about
metal bands which demonstrate some kind of uniqueness and beauty, as opposed
to the legions of ripoffs. Does Cannibble Corpse have an ideology? Not at
this point; they're in it for rock-n-roll reasons. Does Morbid Angel? Does
Burzum? Does Darkthrone? Did VoiVod? Does MASTER? Did Slayer? Did DRI?
Did Discharge? Did Motorhead? Did Atheist? Did Pestilence? Did Demilich?
Here's the artist's challenge: list the bands you find to be epic and
contributing to the scene, and figure out what connection they have to
ideology, even of the unstated kind. E.g. I don't know if Dismember sat down
and articulated, "We sing about death to overcome the fear of death" and then
drew lines to Nietzsche, Emerson, the Mexican day of the dead, and Sumerian
festivals of spring - but at a subconscious level, they understood that
thought process as somewhere in which they were capable of motion, and
resolution to many of their own internal questions. *
* The master artist does not create to solve internal tension. The master
artist creates out of the same basic love as any artist, that idea of giving
back complexity and growth to the world, but the master artist is entirely
abstracted from the reasons for his creation - he has truly assumed the eye of
god.
> > some people have ideologies without even knowing it.
>
> I would seperate subconscious motivations from the term
> "ideology", because the former implies some sort of reasoning or _choice_,
> whereas subconscious motivations are rarely a product of the intellect.
Subconscious motivations are as developed as the conscious, and often more
honest. The intellect works in mysterious ways, mostly involving its heavy
use of the unconscious for transferring that which cannot be perfectly
articulated. Humans are inference machines and work making complex decisions
on inadequate information. We are always ready to process that which does
not get neatly articulated, but needs to be acted upon. Somewhere in that
yawning lack of information is the death-shadow we call the abyss.
David James Vairinhos
"...spread your emptiness..." (Snicker) "...Misery loves company..." (Tee
Hee) Man, the Sodomy Kid is on a roll...Speaking of men old enough to be
your dad who rock, do you like Bad Religion? One of the defining punk
bands of the 80's and 90's, I think...
Dreaming Neon Black,
-The "V" / The "G"
"As the curtain calls, and the cast recedes
I am all that was and all that will ever be,
In wither and repose this frayed chapter
now does close, and fade into Neon Black..."
-Warrel Dane
"Welcome To The Fall...(Of One Man's Sanity)"
s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca
hate...@yahoo.com
On Sat, 13 Mar 1999, John Chedsey wrote:
> kcufs...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > > > Your deliberate lack of reading
> > > > comprehension labels you as the coward fuckwad you are, sub-human piece of
> > > > shit who lies to breathe.
> > >
> > > You're the fucking coward. you wooldn't ever say any of this shit to anyone's
> > > face as you are too glued to your computer to even confront life in any form.
> > > Yet you sit on your perch, pretending and lieing.
> >
> > I say this shit to people all the time, face to face. Speak about lying...
> >
> > > >. The problem with Ulver is that they're whores.
> > >
> > > You're the only whore here, taking the black metal name and pretending to be
> > > part of it with clever rhetoric.
> >
> > You seem to have misunderstood my motives, which are academic and not
> > personal. Now do you have anything of value to post, or only insults? If
> > the latter...
>
> Sounds like someone took on your tactics to a cruder value.
>
> Do you really talk this way to people in real life? I just have my
John Chedsey
>
> Now, John...You "...lack ideology and love for life..." So stop trying to
> "...spread your emptiness..." (Snicker) "...Misery loves company..." (Tee
> Hee) Man, the Sodomy Kid is on a roll...Speaking of men old enough to be
> your dad who rock, do you like Bad Religion? One of the defining punk
> bands of the 80's and 90's, I think...
I'm assuming you were reading one of Chris's posts. I can't be
bothered.
Of course I like Bad Religion! They have an ideology and a love for
life! And they spread fullness! But seriously, they were a pretty
amazing band, especially on "No Control" and "Against the Grain". The
latter is one of the most played albums in my collection. It's too bad
so many bands took the bare ingredients of the Bad Religion soup and
watered it down. Hence my lack of interest in what passes for punk
these days.
David James Vairinhos
individual, wouldn't you agree? You're right on the punk thing; the only
bands that really interest me from that genre are Bad Religion, All, Black
Flag, and some of the Dead Kennedy's stuff. The rest of this neo-punk
garbage (i.e. Green Day, Offspring, Etc.) is for the birds.
Dreaming Neon Black,
-The "V" / The "G"
"As the curtain calls, and the cast recedes
I am all that was and all that will ever be,
In wither and repose this frayed chapter
now does close, and fade into Neon Black..."
-Warrel Dane
"Welcome To The Fall...(Of One Man's Sanity)"
s77...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca
hate...@yahoo.com
myles robert hamilton
On Sun, 14 Mar 1999 kcufs...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
> > > >> > What's the difference between that and doing what you do: ie.
> > > >> >seeking out art that already reflects your own values?
> > > >>
> > > >> i think this is...a misunderstanding, as i do not believe this
> > > >> neccesarily goes on.
> > > >
> > > > what do you think happens, then? When you buy a Graveland cd, you
> > > >don't have some idea of what kind of values are going to be put forth?
>
> Art differs from normal communication in that it doesn't preach static
> values, but a method of deriving those values. Art is about enhancing
> perception, and not a static teleological objective as politics is. E.g.
> when you put on a Graveland CD, you don't feel fascist - you perceive the
> logic behind fascism where it is relevant to overall
> communication/existence/language.
When I put on a Graveland cd, the music doesn't even make me think
of Facism or NS. I think you overestimate the objective communicable
power of many artforms; and furthermore, I think that it should be pointed
out that simply the presentation of an idea regarding how a concept might
fit into the cosmic scheme is quite loaded with value in the first place.
Art is about shared experience, and the
> interpretation thereof. I do not take Graveland seriously when they talk
> about spreading a specific doctrine (N.S. ideology) through their music, but
> find in the thought process behind their ideology as transferred to art a
> useful interpretation of value.
I don't see patterns of logic in graveland's music, so I'm not
quite sure what you are getting at... I would also add that, given
Darken's NS agenda, his art is more reflective of conclusions than
processes.
>
> > > "some idea" is different from "seeking out...", as it implies some
> > > similar concepts as opposed to _being the same_.
> >
> > Personally, I think it's close enough...
>
> People who seek out a particular agreement in art are commoditized.
What about people who seek out a roughly approximate agreement
(with a little room for differentiation)?
It has more emotional appeal, and thus can trigger a more
pronounced reaction from its audience.
> art is about letting other people
> perceive and understand of their own will, not pushing ideas on them.
Then why jump on those who listen to new Dimmu or new Ancient or
any of those? Assuming that thier appreciation is not based off of
commerciality, but simply a different reaction to hearing what you find to
be "predictable rock 'n roll" riffs?
>
> > > the "nature" of a means cannot be defined by it's creator, as it
> > > exists outside of that.
> >
> > How is art, being a form of communication that relies on codified
> > encryption and decryption, an end when something like language (also a
> > form of communication " " " " ..) is treated as a means?
>
> An end as part of the process? The art itself is not the whole of the
> process, but only the conduit for the virus.
And a conduit is a "means", correct?
> The artistic process is between
> what the viewer perceives and what the creator perceives.
..and do to the inherently abstract nature of art, like stimulus
will often evoke very different responses in the minds of the creator and
viewer because of the different lives each has led.
(I'll get back to the rest of this later..)
Melvin Slundersloth
myles robert hamilton
On Sun, 14 Mar 1999 kcufs...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
> > >> ...because I am voicing my opinion regarding the nature of the
> > >> relationship between art and audience in an attempt to point out that
> > >> objective claims of worth in the artistic world have a very limited
> > >> capacity.
> > >
> > >You are failing, because art is entirely based in objective claims, since it
> > >exists to communicate. Name a great artist who agrees with you.
> >
> > this is a tautology, because if you define "great artists" as "those
> > who disagree"...
>
> I think you're projecting that definition; I define great artists without
> parameters, and then seek out why they're great, not vice-versa.
How can you define without parameters?
Melvin Slundersloth
John Chedsey
One line of pure genius...pop goes the KCUS.