Re: Google has eaten 10,000 rec.arts.tv posts
Smokie Darling (Annie)
> On Nov 28, 2:36 pm, David <dimla...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > October 2009 total: 16,354 posts
> > November 2009: 5,836 posts
>
> > (and it wasn't working so hot in October either!)
>
> Is it that they want to drive us away?
That could be, wonder if their advertisers are aware of what's going
on. Hit Google in the "wallet", maybe then they'll look into the
problem.
Remysun
On Nov 28, 2:36 pm, David <dimla...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> October 2009 total: 16,354 posts
> November 2009: 5,836 posts
>
> (and it wasn't working so hot in October either!)
I suspect HipCrime or some other similar program may be responsible
for the gutting of the Google Groups archive. Whatever is doing this,
it's effect on the group is particularly virulent because it removes
the on topic threads, leaving only the crossposted crap that we could
do well without.
thinbluemime
The posts have not been cancelled, the individual posts are still there.
If you know the direct link to a post it comes up just fine. The problem
is with the way the database is INDEXed. Without proper indexing, search
can not find the posts, rendering the huge database practically useless.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.tv.lost/msg/3b81ff0a9687b805
=======================
Searching within a newsgroup, even one with thousands of posts, produces
no results at all. Confining a search to a range of dates also fails
silently, bulldozing the most obvious path to exploring an archive.
Flat searches of the entire archive still work, but they aren’t very
useful: there are 1.42 million hits on “mosaic.” The rise of Microsoft,
the first Usenet review of the IBM PC in 1981, early rumblings of a Y2K
problem in 1985 — it’s all locked in Google Groups, virtually
irretrievable if you don’t already have a direct link.
tdciago
> Crossposted to alt.tv.lost to ping Tdciago.
>
> On Nov 28, 2:36�pm, David <dimla...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > October 2009 total: 16,354 posts
> > November 2009: 5,836 posts
>
> > (and it wasn't working so hot in October either!)
Thanks for thinking of me. :) I saw this thread on rec.arts.tv
yesterday (minus some of the messages, of course), and I posted the
numbers on the Google Groups Help forum.
> I suspect HipCrime or some other similar program may be responsible
> for the gutting of the Google Groups archive. Whatever is doing this,
> it's effect on the group is particularly virulent because it removes
> the on topic threads, leaving only the crossposted crap that we could
> do well without.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hipcrime_(Usenet)
"Gutting" is a great term for what it's done.
tdciago
> The posts have not been cancelled, the individual posts are still there. �
> If you know the direct link to a post it comes up just fine.
Nope, this is a different problem. It's not a search issue. I have
made posts to rec.arts.tv, viewed them immediately, bookmarked the
link to the individual message, and then it's completely gone within a
couple of minutes. And it's not just posts made via Google Groups.
The Google Groups archive is literally missing about 10,000 posts to
rec.arts.tv in November, made from many different servers. Total
posts archived went from about 16,000 in October to 6,000 in
November. Some percentage of them vanished shortly after they
appeared on Google; others never appeared at all.
The messages can still be seen by people using other newsreaders, but
Google has no record of them whatsoever. Just take a look at
rec.arts.tv, and you'll notice that most of the threads are missing
posts. You can tell when someone else quotes a post that doesn't
appear on Google.
Cross-posting to other groups, such as alt.test, makes the message
searchable because Google has a record of it in the other group.
thinbluemime
> On Nov 29, 9:18�pm, thinbluemime <thinbluem...@geemail.com> wrote:
>> The posts have not been cancelled, the individual posts are still
>> there. �
>> If you know the direct link to a post it comes up just fine.
>
> Nope, this is a different problem. It's not a search issue. I have
> made posts to rec.arts.tv, viewed them immediately, bookmarked the
> link to the individual message, and then it's completely gone within a
> couple of minutes. And it's not just posts made via Google Groups.
> The Google Groups archive is literally missing about 10,000 posts to
> rec.arts.tv in November, made from many different servers. Total
> posts archived went from about 16,000 in October to 6,000 in
> November. Some percentage of them vanished shortly after they
> appeared on Google; others never appeared at all.
OK then, the posts are being cancelled or destroyed somewhere along the
way. It appears this problem is unique to only 'rec.arts.tv', right?
Please keep us updated if any progress is made in determining the source
of the problem.
tdciago
> OK then, the posts are being cancelled or destroyed somewhere along the �
> way.
Yet they make it to other newsreaders (and stick there), so it's only
the Google Groups archive that's being affected. So I wouldn't
describe the problem as the posts being cancelled, at least not Usenet-
wide. And I don't know how Google would cancel posts made from other
servers.
> It appears this problem is unique to only 'rec.arts.tv', right? �
> Please keep us updated if any progress is made in determining the source �
> of the problem.
The problem has also been reported in other groups. As far as I know,
rec.arts.tv has seen the most drastic effect. Unfortunately, some
people just go to the Google Groups help forum, post an angry message
about their posts being deleted, and never give specifics about the
groups or threads. I think most people can't even find the Help forum
(called "Is Something Broken?"), or they just think it won't do any
good to report the problem.
So far, they're right.
(Note that when I view rec.arts.tv using Google Groups, Remysun's post
in this thread doesn't even show up there. It does, however, show up
in alt.tv.lost and alt.test.)
New & Improved WQ
Odd. Remysun was gracious enough to repost my original comeback post
the other day, crossposting it to alt.test along with rec.arts.tv,
claiming that way it would "stick". I didn't see my original post
for almost six hours, but once Remysun reposted it along with a reply
to it from wherever it ended up, I finally saw it, but then, you say
you don't even see Remysun's post in this thread in rec.arts.tv and,
if there's supposed to be one, neither do I. I guess this is just
what happens when I leave for 5 1/2 months - the place turns a
shambles. Hmm, now that I've just noticed it, my "From", before I
send this, reads 'New & Improved WQ', when previously it read
correctly as 'New & Improved WQ'. Wonder which version will appear.
Some comeback this is turning out to be.
Obveeus
"New & Improved WQ" <w...@reborn.com> wrote:
>Hmm, now that I've just noticed it, my "From", before I
>send this, reads 'New & Improved WQ', when previously it read
>correctly as 'New & Improved WQ'. Wonder which version will appear.
Good question. Will it be the 'amp'ed version or simply the '&'
version...or will it just be another case of false advertising?
Alls Quiet
> Nope, this is a different problem. It's not a search issue. I have
> made posts to rec.arts.tv, viewed them immediately, bookmarked the
> link to the individual message, and then it's completely gone within a
> couple of minutes.
Same here.
> The messages can still be seen by people using other newsreaders, but
> Google has no record of them whatsoever. Just take a look at
> rec.arts.tv, and you'll notice that most of the threads are missing
> posts. You can tell when someone else quotes a post that doesn't
> appear on Google.
I'd like to know which newsreaders. I tried "recrgroups," or something
like that, but the lag-time was phenomenal, and I didn't go back.
>
> Cross-posting to other groups, such as alt.test, makes the message
> searchable because Google has a record of it in the other group.
Same here.
tdciago
> I'd like to know which newsreaders. I tried "recrgroups," or something
> like that, but the lag-time was phenomenal, and I didn't go back.
That looks like another web-based newsreader. I'm not familiar with
other newsreaders, but if you're looking for one that's web-based,
maybe others can give suggestions.
David
"WQ: Now Even Older!"
Smokie Darling (Annie)
> On Nov 29, 10:00 pm, thinbluemime <thinbluem...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
> > OK then, the posts are being cancelled or destroyed somewhere along the
> > way.
>
> Yet they make it to other newsreaders (and stick there), so it's only
> the Google Groups archive that's being affected. So I wouldn't
> describe the problem as the posts being cancelled, at least not Usenet-
> wide. And I don't know how Google would cancel posts made from other
> servers.
Yeah, the problem is becoming worse. It used to be *just* rec.arts.tv
(and a crosspost to rec.arts.sf.tv would "hold" the post), and it was
*just* GG users. Now it's dropping posts from nearly every server,
though some still seem to be working fine.
The only thing that is going to change the way it's "working" is if
Google starts losing money from advertisers. People stop using
Google, then advertising drops.
> > It appears this problem is unique to only 'rec.arts.tv', right?
> > Please keep us updated if any progress is made in determining the source
> > of the problem.
>
> The problem has also been reported in other groups. As far as I know,
> rec.arts.tv has seen the most drastic effect. Unfortunately, some
> people just go to the Google Groups help forum, post an angry message
> about their posts being deleted, and never give specifics about the
> groups or threads. I think most people can't even find the Help forum
> (called "Is Something Broken?"), or they just think it won't do any
> good to report the problem.
The problem being, if you don't have the message ID, you can't tell
them which one it was. I have posted there, saying, can't show you a
link to the post, since the post is *gone*, but if you read
rec.arts.tv, you'll notice *something* is wrong at Google.
They actually don't care. The "help" group is there so you can vent.
If the fix is more than just a simple "reset", it won't happen.
Slobodan Milosevic
wrote:
+
Maybe crossposting creates more viewers and therefore more
advertising revenue. Follow the money that comes into
"rec.arts.tv" without the crossposts.
Dan
+
tdciago
> The problem being, if you don't have the message ID, you can't tell
> them which one it was. �I have posted there, saying, can't show you a
> link to the post, since the post is *gone*, but if you read
> rec.arts.tv, you'll notice *something* is wrong at Google.
What I've done is immediately view the message (because it usually
does show up, and then it disappears the next time the page is
loaded), and click on "Show original." I then bookmark the link. You
can then copy and paste the entire message, with headers, and email it
to yourself, so the details are retained. When the post vanishes, the
bookmark is no longer good, but if you've got a copy of the message
headers, you can post it to the Help group.
And if the message is cross-posted, you can locate it in the other
group(s) to which it was sent.
> They actually don't care. �The "help" group is there so you can vent.
> If the fix is more than just a simple "reset", it won't happen.
That certainly seems to be the case. At least I know that I provided
them with the details, so they can't claim that nobody is giving them
enough information to track down the problem.
I don't know if it would do any good to alert Wired.com, but I think
it was their article that finally embarrassed Google into working on
the Groups Search bug.
Smokie Darling (Annie)
> In article <c861dc09-0236-4da5-b01c-1827dd87a...@c34g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
>
> tdciago <tdci...@aol.com> wrote:
> >So I wouldn't
> >describe the problem as the posts being cancelled, at least not Usenet-
> >wide. And I don't know how Google would cancel posts made from other
> >servers.
>
> There is no reason to believe that Google Groups is sending out
> Usenet cancel messages. As for why some postings aren't visible
> on GG, it could be that the messages are being deleted, but as I
> mentioned above, it could also be that they're on the server but
> simply not visible right now.
Considering that GG is not even acknowledging the issue on their help
page, I don't think it's as simple as getting to the server and
getting stuck there. The post will show up, briefly, then
disappear.
That has happened a great deal on the thread "Programming Alert to
[insult deleted]", even your posts in there have gone by the wayside
(and the thread "Where the hell is SVU" and "Where the Hell is Fringe
and FlashForward" and will probably happen if anyone replies to "Where
the Hell is CSI:Miami").
> Someone suggested a possible cyberattack of cancel messages. I asked
> whether Google Groups honors Usenet cancel messages but have not seen
> a response. (Probably no one here on rec.arts.tv knows, or has been
> able to get an answer from GG yet.)
I've never seen the post with that question, but here goes.... (some
of your posts are disappearing too, we talked about that in another
thread). GG will allow a 'delete' of post, if you are the poster (and
signed into the account that made the posting). They will also delete
some posts if certain criteria are met (personal identifying info
posted, like social security numbers). What's happening here is a bit
more widespread than that, and there is no rhyme or reason to it. A
cyberattack would, ostensibly, have some sort of pattern, this
doesn't.
Most Usenet news servers have now
> been configured *not* to honor them. So although I still think this
> is a long shot, one could posit a scenario where a flood of cancel
> messages is being sent and only GG is taking action on them.
>
> Patty
Except that GG doesn't honor "cancel" requests. Each poster must
"nuke" their own posts.
Ian J. Ball
In article <4b13ee40$0$1609$742e...@news.sonic.net>,
Patty Winter <pat...@wintertime.com> wrote:
> In article
> <c861dc09-0236-4da5...@c34g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
> tdciago <tdc...@aol.com> wrote:
> >On Nov 29, 10:00�pm, thinbluemime <thinbluem...@geemail.com> wrote:
> >> OK then, the posts are being cancelled or destroyed somewhere along the
> >> way.
>
> >So I wouldn't
> >describe the problem as the posts being cancelled, at least not Usenet-
> >wide. And I don't know how Google would cancel posts made from other
> >servers.
>
> There is no reason to believe that Google Groups is sending out
> Usenet cancel messages. As for why some postings aren't visible
> on GG, it could be that the messages are being deleted, but as I
> mentioned above, it could also be that they're on the server but
> simply not visible right now.
Yes, the problem AFAICT seems to be an "indexing" problem on Google's
end - I've seen nothing to indicate that posts on GG are, in fact,
"being destroyed" (someone's example of the URL to the "original
message" not working anymore is not proof positive that posts in GG are
"being destroyed", as GG's URL's have all those weird names, and their
failing to access the original posts could be related to the same
indexing issue).
I think it's just that GG's massive archive indexing problems are making
the posts inaccessible via GG. But I suspect they're all still going
into Google's archive.
Considering how long this issue has been percolating (it's been months
now...), I'm starting to doubt any fix will be forthcoming from Google,
which means this is effectively the *end* of using Google Groups as a
web-based usenet 'front-end'.
So, the question is - are there *any other* web-based 'front-end'
services for accessing usenet posts?
(And, if not, hopefully someone will take the hint and start one up
soon...)
--
"There's no business, like Cho business."
- Patrick Jane, "The Mentalist", 02/11/09
tdciago
> As for why some postings aren't visible
> on GG, it could be that the messages are being deleted, but as I
> mentioned above, it could also be that they're on the server but
> simply not visible right now.
I can't say whether or not that's the case, but I can tell you that
I've bookmarked my original individual messages while they're briefly
visible, and once the post disappears from the group's archive, the
link no longer works.
> Someone suggested a possible cyberattack of cancel messages. I asked
> whether Google Groups honors Usenet cancel messages but have not seen
> a response.
I checked the posting Help FAQ ( http://groups.google.com/support/bin/topic.py?hl=en&topic=9253
) and the question of deleting one's post is not even addressed.
There used to be a link on messages posted through Google Groups that
allowed you to cancel them, but they removed that link.
Owners of individual Google Groups can delete messages in their
groups, but that doesn't apply to Usenet groups like rec.arts.tv.
Remysun
> Good. They should dump all posts after they're 30 days old, at the
> most.
Doesn't really make it an archive then. Then again, neither does
dropping the posts like this.
Joel
>October 2009 total: 16,354 posts
>November 2009: 5,836 posts
>
>(and it wasn't working so hot in October either!)
The "Google Groups" archive search feature has been FUBAR since
on or about November 29th, 2004, which was, notably, about the
exact date when they implemented their so called "beta" program.
Most, not all, but most archived articles can still be retrieved,
provided you know the message id of that article, as shown here:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=7qu2h5h99prvipqm5...@4ax.com
I recommend trying this with really old articles that you might
have saved locally in years past. You will find that many if not
most of these old articles can still be retrieved using this "id"
method.
But as someone else in this thread pointed out, the GG's "search"
feature is completely useless. And I would remind GG search users
that GG's search has been broken and dysfunctional for five years.
The only question is, was this deliberate on the part of Google?
Seems to me the answer is yes, Google and "Big Brother," with whom
Google is in cahoots, deliberately censored the GG archive search
feature to the point of unsalvageable uselessness to the public.
"Who controls the present controls the past," they had foolishly
imagined. But they don't control the Usenet, and they never will.
Once you've accepted that this is the correct answer, then another
more pressing question arises, and that is why did they to this to
what used to be such a useful Usenet (and later, added proprietary
Google Groups) archive search tool? Why break what they controlled?
The answer to this is obvious. Control. Neither Google nor their
Big Brother conspirators broadly control unmoderated usenet news
groups. And they still don't. But since Google was the only major
searchable public usenet archive in the world, the conspirators in
question decided it best to shut down or deindex Google's "Groups"
archive search feature. They obviously don't want people searching
public usenet archives, because they don't control the free speach
going out over the usenet. They would rather that you subscribe to
their government-controlled western media, and believe only what
they tell you to believe. And that is what is really going on here.
I believe that most experienced usenet subscribers have been saving
articles of interest in their own data storage archives, CDs, DVDs,
hard disks, flash drives, and other storage media for years or even
decades. Mine date to 1992. I didn't save all the new articles, but
only the ones that interested me, including most of the ones that I
had posted. I'd bet that millions of other usenet subscribers have
done the same or similar thing, depending on when they first became
interested in usenet news groups, and how active they were with it.
Google and Big Brother are not in the usenet driver's seat. Usenet
is its own multifaceted and virtually uncensorable entity, barring
moderated groups. Usenet, and really the Internet as a whole, has
become something far better, and uncontrollable, than its original
inventors had intended or could have possibly imagined. I would say
that the Internet has become their own Frankenstein that has turned
against its creator. Essentially, too big to fail, which is exactly
what the Internet was originally designed to be in the event of a
nuclear war or some other catastrophic international calamity.
Got to hand it to the original inventors of the Internet. It works
better than they could have dreamed of in their wildest imagination.
But "Google Groups?" Better that Deja News had never handed it over.
--
Joel
allenk...@hotmail.com
-- Yes, this is quite annoying. Not having the archives work is
unfortunate but not seeing items that've been posted is frustrating.
--
Allen Kirshner
(the alt.music.lyrics TV theme guy)