absolutely more than 100 percent. the whole country is upset again. i can
mail some articles but they are in dutch. if you want. byw hirschi ali has
been given to understand by those people to shut up
>
> I see the Dutch courts have come up with a new crime with which to
> charge the man who killed van Gogh. He is also being charged with
> preventing Ayaan Hirsi Ali from carrying out her work. She is in fear
> of her life because of the note he left threatening to kill her.
>
> That new charge carries a life sentence.
>
> Actually, that is a very interesting development. I wonder how long it
> will be before other countries adopt legislation for similar charges
> against religious loons or political extremists? Will Bush use similar
> tactics against those who blow up abortion clinics in the US? Would
> Blair push through a Bill that would have a similar effect on the
> animal rights protestors who have targeted people working in the
> biotech fields?
> --
> amicalement,
>
> Daniel
The answers to those questions will be interesting, indeed! The world is
such a chaotic place now, that it is hard to see things ever calming down.
Norma
> --
> amicalement,
>
> Daniel
19 January 2005
AMSTERDAM - The 43-year-old woman arrested following the death of a
19-year-old bag snatcher killed when he became wedged between her car and a
tree in Amsterdam on Monday has denied intentionally killing him, her lawyer
has said.
The death teen, identified as Ali B. of Moroccan descent, was riding
on a moped with a friend when they stopped beside the woman's car at about
6.30pm and opened the door to steal her bag. They then tried to escape, but
the woman reversed her car to cut them off, colliding with the scooter on
the Derde Oosterparkstraat.
The Opel Vectra car wedged the 19-year-old up against a tree and he
died at the scene. The woman was then taken to the
local police station for questioning. Police believe the death was a
"tragic accident", but investigations into the incident continue.
Lawyer P.A. van der Waal said his client - who is being held on
suspicion of manslaughter - only wanted to pursue the suspects to get her
bag back. He said the woman put her car in reverse to try and tell the
thieves that there was nothing of value in her bag.
The woman is the mother of two children and is very shaken by the
incident. "She thinks it is terrible for the boy and his parents. She very
much wants to personally explain to the parents how this could have
happened," Van der Waal told newspaper De Telegraaf.
He said the woman had not even noticed she had collided with the
scooter. When the car hit the tree, she set out in pursuit of the second
thief. But giving up the chase, she then turned around and saw the other
thief wedged against the tree, the lawyer said.
"It was absolutely not her intention to injure the street robbers by,
for example, colliding with them," Van der Waal said.
The woman was interviewed at length by police on Tuesday and a
spokesman told the newspaper that it remains unclear how the car collided
with the scooter. It is hoped that the second thief will report to police to
give his account of the incident. Justice officials will decided on
Wednesday if the woman is to appear in court.
Meanwhile, heated discussion has opened up in Amsterdam East, with
some Moroccans in the area claiming that B.'s death was murder. Soon after
the incident, youths started yelling and screaming at the scene and the
situation threatened to get out of hand as they tried to cross police lines
to get at the victim.
The boy's father also arrived and was clearly distressed. He was later
taken away by police and offered counselling assistance from a crisis team
and tensions at the scene of his son's death started to ease.
Discussion continues to rage in the district and on internet forums
about whether the death was an accident or murder. Some people have said
that the victim was to blame by setting events in motion by taking the bag.
Feelings are running particularly high between the native Dutch and
immigrant communities, particularly in light of the fact the incident
occurred just 50m from the spot where filmmaker Theo van Gogh was murdered
last November, allegedly by a Islamic militant with Dutch and Moroccan
nationality.
the morning before he was killed he had to appear in court for being
questioned about an armed robbery for which he was senteced for two
years.however after 4 months he was released because his sister gave him an
aliby. so nobody will miss him.
Dutch Muslims find a voice - of reason?
The establishment of a political party to represent Muslims in
the Netherlands is as welcome as it is overdue. But it also entails very
real risks.
The announcement by columnist Mohammed Jabri that moves are
afoot to launch a political party for Dutch Muslims by the beginning of
summer should come as no surprise to anyone who has followed events in the
Netherlands in recent years.
The Muslim Democratic Party (MDP) could be a real force for good
if it plays a positive role. It should forthrightly defend aspects of Muslim
life that are worth defending; help spread understanding and acceptance of
Muslims among the native Dutch and vice versa; and perhaps most importantly,
expose as a lie the convenient myth that Muslims are the root of all that is
wrong or bad in the Netherlands today.
On the other hand, if the MDP fails to get off the ground,
embroils itself in extremist rhetoric or suffers the internal disputes that
have set the anti-immigration LPF on the way to an agonisingly slow
self-destruction, the consequences would be terrible. Politics would be seen
by many in the Muslim community as a dead-end, leaving imams and radical
thugs to represent the community.
Already there are daily reports of young Muslim men - a
minority, but an active one - in the major cities who look on the native
Dutch as the enemy and fair game for crimes of theft. It is common for
unveiled women, both Muslim and native Dutch, in parts of Amsterdam to be
branded "whores" and "sluts" by self-righteous Muslims.
But giving Muslims a real voice on the political stage - and who
knows, perhaps a seat at the Cabinet table - would go a long way to helping
Muslims to look on Dutch society as their society also.
A Muslim party would have real potential: there are an estimated
one million Muslims in the Netherlands and the number is growing.
Muslims and Islam are the topics of the hour as a decidedly
one-sided debate rages about how far Muslims should be willing - and
according to some critics, forced - to integrate into Dutch society.
Islam's chief Dutch critics in Parliament, Geert Wilders and
Hilbrand Nawijn, are vying with each other for the title of "Champion of
Liberal Democracy" who will lead a modern day reconquista to compel Muslims
here to become Dutch or get out.
There is no coherent voice on the Muslim side to represent the
other side of the case. We hear daily from Muslim clerics who have rightly
avoided getting into politics proper. And occasionally the Arab European
League (AEL) issues a statement, but it seems to be more concerned about the
situation in Iraq and the Palestinian issue than about what is going on in
the Netherlands.
Echoing the wider-scale tragedies in those parts of the world,
the brutal murder of filmmaker Theo van Gogh last November has brought home
to people in the Netherlands the damage that even one wannabe martyr can
inflict.
The State security service AIVD has estimated that there are 100
to 200 extremists in the Netherlands prepared to use violence to defend
Islam.
But for all their apparent zeal, they remain an unrepresentative
minority within the Dutch Muslim communities. And in turn these
communities - Turkish, Moroccans, Iraqis, Afghans, Somalis and others - are
seriously under represented in the Lower House of Parliament.
The Muslims that have made the step into politics have done so
under the banner of one or other of the main Dutch parties. Since their
parties have been falling over themselves since 2002 to prove they can dish
out tough love to Muslims, Muslims have not surprisingly lost interest.
The need to balance the political scales was reinforced at the
start of January when MP Nawijn - the first minister for Immigration and
Integration from 2002 to 2003 - said that Muslim schools should be banned.
None of the established political parties uttered any semblance of protest.
Our erstwhile champions of liberal freedoms didn't seem to think
there was anything wrong with Nawijn's assertion that the Constitutional
guarantee of freedom of religion should only apply to Christian and Jewish
schools - because Dutch society, he said, was a Judeo-Christian one.
He forgot to mention that until Indonesia got its independence
from the Netherlands in the 1940s, Islam was the biggest religious group in
the Kingdom of the Netherlands.
And Nawijn also went so far as to say integration was a waste of
time, Muslims had to be made to assimilate. Again his colleagues in
parliament didn't bat an eye lid.
He simply ignored the rights and views of the Muslims living
here now. Instead, Nawijn - who is trying to ensure a political life for
himself after the inevitable demise of the LPF - is flirting with the Vlaams
Belang, the successor to the Flemish party that was banned in Belgium for
being racist.
Jabri and the others setting up the MDP have a right to be
scathing about this sort of thoughtless anti-Muslim bias which seems to
dominate present political debate in the Netherlands.
But let's hope the MDP chooses the high road and decides to play
a positive role. To take the Nawijn-Vlaams Belang road might prove popular
in the short-term, but ultimately it would be a dead end and everyone would
lose out.
This is really two very real tragedies...
How on earth will this be resolved??? Norma
<snip article>
as usual. the government will drink a cup of tea in some mosque and the rest
of the people can find a solution for themselves. the pig is going to be
burried in morocco that is a good.
this is going on for years and years and getting worse by the year. it is
now 19 th january 2005 and we have had already more killings than in the
first 6 months of last year. need not to say who were the killers.
Sorry. Sounds like American politics in reverse. Norma
It seems bound to happen somewhere. It is going to be hard to step back and
reconstruct all that will need to be mended, amended, and changed. Norma
> --
> amicalement,
>
> Daniel
life sentence here is 20 years !!! and after 2/3 of the punishment has
passed and he behaved well he is free, so people are already waiting when
the murderer of fortuyn is set free.
With some of the
> anti-terror laws around today, especially the ability to hold people
> indefinitely without trial or even real evidence, a law like this
> offers governments the chance to arrest an individual for a moment of
> injudicious speech.
it is the youth of today who is causing the main problems, the parents of
those boy speak only their own language and stick to their own habits
i.e.they donot know and donot want to know how life here is organized. so
the youngerst who go or went to school experience the real life whereas
their parents are still dreaming about Rabat and camels. add to this that
most fail at school,dropouts no employer wants to give them a job and you
see the results.
dealing in drugs, cell phones, robbing old ladies, playing the lover boy
i.e. getting young girls into prostitution and robberies by scooters.
it is called the dutch desease: always trying to stay in contact by talking
talking talking you see the results.
in rotterdam last weekend a 38 year old man was killed because he tried to
intervene in a "discussion"between three moroccan men and a group of girls
who were being harassed by them. in order not to escalate things he left the
sandwichshop, however he was followed by the camel boys and hit from behind
on his head and died instantly. he was married and had a little girl of 8
months !!!! it has been ascertained that these three men were removed from
the central station in rotterdam, for misconduct, just an hour before they
kiled the man
>
> Anti-vivisection sites have posted the names and addresses of
> scientists involved in animal experiments on their web sites and I am
> sure that anti-abortionists groups in the US have done the same. A
> Christian group recently published the addresses of the BBC directors
> on a web site in protest at them showing Jerry Springer - The Musical.
> If one of their supporters went too far with their protests and issued
> death threats that caused a person to be in actual fear for their
> lives, I would say those groups would be equally culpable under such a
> law as we now see in the Netherlands.
> --
> amicalement,
>
> Daniel
as long as we have a government and political parties who are still
believing in a multi kul society and keep their eyes closed for what is
really happening, but we are used to that, nothing will change for the
better.
the good people are leaving and the scum and elderly who cannot afford to
move stay behind.that is a fact.
we are learning it here the hard way. those people are sent in the social
security system instead of being forced to learn the language. it is
saddening to see and hear people being in this country for more than 30
years ,still being unable to say the simplest things in dutch.
but the word geld(money) they know perfectly.
>
> >dealing in drugs, cell phones, robbing old ladies, playing the lover boy
> >i.e. getting young girls into prostitution and robberies by scooters.
> >it is called the dutch desease: always trying to stay in contact by
talking
> >talking talking you see the results.
>
> Have you heard of the "craze" called Happy Slapping? Basically, gangs
> of kids wander around and attack unsuspecting passersby (usually old
> people or women) and record the attacks on their mobile phones.
nop i did not but it sounds exactly what those moroccans are doing. it is
asking for trouble using your mobile in public., unless your back is
covered.
>
> >
> >in rotterdam last weekend a 38 year old man was killed because he tried
to
> >intervene in a "discussion"between three moroccan men and a group of
girls
> >who were being harassed by them. in order not to escalate things he left
the
> >sandwichshop, however he was followed by the camel boys and hit from
behind
> >on his head and died instantly. he was married and had a little girl of 8
> >months !!!! it has been ascertained that these three men were removed
from
> >the central station in rotterdam, for misconduct, just an hour before
they
> >kiled the man
> >>
> Have a read about this attack that happened in London.
>
>
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/16035161?source=Evening%20Standard&ct=5
jezus christus !!!! that reminds me: donot do anything foolish on febr.1
plse !!!!
Manslaughter charge over thief's death
20 January 2005
AMSTERDAM - The 43-year-old woman who reversed her car into a thief
who snatched her handbag earlier this week faces a manslaughter charge, the
public prosecutor said on Wednesday.
Germaine C., a mother-of-two, is due to appear in court on Thursday
when she is expected to be remanded in custody as the police investigation
into the incident continues.
The police have said the death seems to have been the result of a
"tragic accident".
But the public prosecutor has decided that the woman should be charged
with manslaughter because she took an "unacceptable risk" in the manner she
reversed her car.
Ali el B., a 19-year-old man of Moroccan descent, was killed when the
car crushed against a tree on the Derde Oosterparkstraat in the east on
Amsterdam early on Monday night. ( the tree is still in good health)
Moments earlier El B. and an accomplice, 18, had allegedly snatched
the woman's bag from her car. The accomplice escaped from the scene of the
crime, but reported to police on Wednesday night.
The woman, according to her lawyer, has denied she intended to hit
them with her car. She has claimed she reversed her car to follow the
thieves to tell them there was nothing of value in the bag and to ask them
to give it back.
C. has said she was not immediately aware she had hit the man and was
preparing to follow his alleged accomplice when she noticed El B.'s body.
Some locals do not believe her protestations of innocence. On the
night of the accident, young men gathered at the scene and started shouting
the incident was "murder".
Speaking in Arabic, a local woman at the scene told a television
reporter on Wednesday that the dead man had never done anything wrong and
was the victim of injustice. (in the morning he had to report to the police
for being questioned about his armed robbery of a drugstore for which he got
2 years but was released after 4 month after his sister gave him an aliby
which proved to be false)
A youth also told RTL News that efforts were being made to gather
native Dutch and immigrant residents together to commemorate El B.'s death
in a silent march, asserting that the victim was not a "dog" and deserved to
be remembered.( only 100 appeared only foreigners)
Chart-topping rapper Ali B., who is also of Moroccan descent, also
attended a gathering at the scene of the accident on Wednesday to appeal for
calm and to pray to Allah, newspaper De Volkskrant reported. (as his career
is more important he refused to participate in further demonstations)
The incident occurred only 50m from where filmmaker Theo van Gogh was
shot and stabbed to death on 2 November 2004. Mohammed B., a 26-year-old man
with Dutch and Moroccan nationality, has been arrested for the murder.
Well there certainly is something wrong with the Dutch people!
They must be crosseyed or something.. Anyone that can't hit
a morrocan thief dead on with the hood ornament just isn't trying.
A mere sideswipe pinning to a tree... Hell thats like playing
Horseshoes.
>
>
Gee... I would like se see that here in Cowboy country. Lots of us
carry legal firearms and self defense is a good reason to use them.
I can just see some smart assed kid slapping my 82 year old
neighbor sown the road. After the kid got out of the emergency
room recovering from the pistol whipping the old man would be waiting
to give him a second whipping! What the Hell...Has the Netherland
raised nothing but a bunch of wimps?
It appears the Dutch justice system is an ass,to appease its' N. African
immigrants no doubt!
The thug got what he deserved IMO.
the public prosecutor has decided that the woman should be
> charged with manslaughter because she took an "unacceptable risk" in
> the manner she reversed her car.
LOL.......Someone has the brains to do something about the criminals and she
gets charged with manslaughter!!!(if she was carrying a gun and had shot the
b*****ds that would be a different matter)
Is this a test case or just appeasement? The lady sounds like she has a good
defence.
Tilly
she is free again awaiting further developments. did you know that the
slain man appeared in court the morning of the day he was sandwiched? it was
about a false alibi supplied by his brother for an armed robbery last year
and for which he was sentenced 2 years but release later on the basis of the
alibi give by his brother.
so one down many more to follow. thanks god he was burried in marocco last
friday.
so never forget: a solid dutch tree and a german made car may lead to
serious injuries hahahahahahaha
21 January 2005
AMSTERDAM - As mourners marched on Friday to commemorate the death of a
Moroccan man during an alleged bag snatch, multicultural institute Forum
urged Moroccan immigrants in Amsterdam to stop portraying themselves as
victims.
Forum spokesman Halim el Madkouri said Moroccans are not victims and should
stop blaming the rest of Dutch society for everything, newspaper De
Volkskrant reported.
His comments came after El B. was killed on Monday night after he and an
accomplice allegedly stole a bag from a woman's car. The motorist reversed
her car to try and reclaim the bag, but collided with the mens' scooter and
crushed the victim up against a tree.
Outrage
erupted in Amsterdam East around the scene of El B.'s death as many people
from the immigrant community claimed that the 43-year-old woman killed the
19-year-old on purpose. They claim it was evidence that Moroccans are
victims of serious injustice in the Netherlands.
"Nonsense, of course, because the woman who crashed into him did not really
think: 'Hey, a Moroccan. I'm going to kill him'. Moroccans are in a vicious
circle of frustration and dissatisfaction. They continually feel they are a
victim," El Madkouri said.
A spokesman for the Koepelorganisatie van Marokkaanse Moskeeën (a Moroccan
mosque association) blamed the emotional outbursts by Moroccans after El
B.'s death on negative publicity in the media.
"But some of them have contributed to this picture themselves. It is time
Moroccans looked into the mirror and recognised their own faults," he said.
The Netherlands is currently in the midst of a drive to force newcomers to
integrate and a crackdown on alleged Islamic extremists. In turn, this has
led to social tension mounting between the native and immigrant communities.
Immigrants have been accused of causing social problems by not integrating
into Dutch society.
Monday's tragedy occurred just 50m away from the spot where Theo van Gogh
was killed last November. A Dutch-Moroccan, Mohammed B., 26, has been
arrested for the crime, which sparked retaliatory vandal and arson attacks
on mosques and churches.
El B.'s death has only served to heighten the tension in a city that is
already feeling the strain of what some commentators have dubbed the "clash
of cultures".
and this
AMSTERDAM - A silent procession for Ali el B. passed off without incident on
Friday as several hundred people paid their respects to the man crushed and
killed by a reversing car after he allegedly stole a woman's bag earlier
this week.
The mourners gathered on Friday at the scene where the 19-year-old man of
Moroccan descent was killed in the Derde Oosterparkstraat in Amsterdam on
Monday night and set off at about 2.15pm for the Al Kabir mosque a short
distance away on the Weesperzijde.
Ali B.'s sister urged those attending - especially the younger people - to
remain quiet and to make the march memorable. The family had originally
planned to hold a silent march from Central Station in the middle of the
city. The idea was abandoned after Amsterdam Mayor Job Cohen advised against
it.
Silent marches are usually reserved for victims of murder and Cohen said it
would be a "bad signal" for El B. to be honoured in this way.
El B. and an 18-year-old accomplice allegedly stole a 43-year-old motorist's
bag from her car on Monday night before trying to escape on a scooter. The
woman reversed her car to follow them and collided with the scooter,
crushing the victim against a tree.
She was arrested and accused of manslaughter, but Amsterdam Court ordered
the release of the mother-of-two on Thursday night, asserting there was no
evidence she had intended to kill El B. The public prosecutor will not
appeal the decision, but its investigation continues.
A large amount of flowers and letters of support have been placed around the
tree where El B. died. One of the letters said: "Verdonk, murderer",
implying that Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk prompted the murder due to
her tough stance on integration.
The incident has sparked heated discussion between immigrants and native
Dutch residents in Amsterdam East. Some residents claim the death was a
racially-motivated murder, while others claim it was purely an accident.
El B. died just outside the Linnaeusschool in Derde Oosterparkstraat and the
institute closed its doors early on Friday because of concerns about unrest.
The march passed off without incident.
A small group of people entered the Al Kabir mosque at the end of the
procession at about 2.45pm for a special commemorative service, newspaper De
Telegraaf reported. The family had asked the service be kept a private
affair.
Meanwhile, Amsterdam Court decided on Monday that it cannot give a ruling in
a robbery case involving the dead man.
El B. had been charged with an armed robbery at a Xenos store on
Kalverstraat in the city centre last May. El B. appeared in court in
relation to the case hours before he died.
In light of his death, the court said it could not do anything else but
order the prosecution to abandon its case. The public prosecutor reached the
same conclusion.