Message from discussion
Thoth's Devil & Sex (was: The Devil)
From: heidr...@well.com (Bill Heidrick)
Subject: Re: Thoth's Devil & Sex (was: The Devil)
Date: 1998/02/19
Message-ID: <6chllo$lo2$1@was.hooked.net>
X-Deja-AN: 326633295
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Organization: Whole Earth Networks News
Newsgroups: alt.tarot
93,
"J. Karlin" <r3win...@texas.net> wrote:
>Bill Heidrick wrote:
>> >> Not essential to either IXth or XIth degree OTO,
>> You don't need the picture on the card to understand the degrees.
>Did someone suggest otherwise? Indeed, I think it's
>the other way about, don't you?
No. Knowledge of those OTO degrees can help with an understanding of
one or two points of view on the Atu, but not primarily Tarot oriented
points of view. Better to say that the Atu can be used to illustrate
aspects of those OTO degrees. Those OTO degrees might shed light on
Crowley's choice of design, but his Hymn to Pan is a far more clear
source for a more complete explanation in the same aspect. The card
suits the poem more than the OTO degrees.
>> What is shown on the card is only slightly suggestive of some things
>> also in the degrees.
>Seems quite suggestive of a number of 'secret instructions'
>actually. But that's not an argument you want to have in
>public, right?
If it were so, it is an argument I would be obligated to make in
public, up to a point. The IXth degree of OTO in particular requires
hints. Otherwise, too few will end up with the requisite concepts to
populate the degree. The principal hints are Gnostic Mass, Grimorum
Sanctisimum, Star Saphire, and some passages in Liber Aleph -- all
Crowley texts. This Atu is not as close.
>> For that matter, with obvious exceptions, what
>> is show on the card is not 100% clear either as a depiction or an
>> action.
>Is that like saying that unless John Holmes stars in the
>production it's got nothing to do with sex?
No. Rather that the name "John" is not sufficiently clear in that
regard -- even though it is sometimes used as a slang term for the
male customer of a prostitute, is the name of a former porn movie star
and as the name of Jesus' beloved Apostle has occasioned a good deal
of speculation about homosexual precursors to Christianity. Crowley
used "John" as a catch-all for the Dying god. All that suggests
something but is not 100% clear without more explicit signs. Seeing a
Pope named John would not imply seeing such a notion.
>> >You're the one who started this (albeit, you did suffer
>> >from a x-post to here). The Atu art is hardly benign with
>> >respect to degrees or Degrees.
>>
>> More than an x-post. Over on the Thelema List, I used the Devil Atu
>> as an example on the issue of where one might stop if one tried to
>> "improve" Frieda's art to better conform with Crowley's descriptions.
>>
>> That was x-posted out of context.
>I think the original context was maintained here.
For alt.tarot, but not significantly for the Thelema list origin's of
my remark.
>However...
>> Then a question was asked "which
>> are the buttocks, the ones on the figures?" I replied, more or less;
>> "No, the pink ones in the sky with blue veins". And now, here we are.
>...threads do evolve.
True, else no point in reading them past a day.
>I'll remind you that you also remarked..."The ovals at
>the bottom are gonads, but there's more."
Right. Meosis inside, Female to left, male to right, evocative of
XY, a male characteristic. Grand Hierophant's wand in center from
bottom -- indicating a tie of this card to Crowley's Liber Reguli.
Top Bahadi of that wand indicating Hadit. Gonad activity also
suggestive of the two forms of Horus. Background suggestive of Nuit
intimate, as well as role reversals in form as an alternate
interpretation. Horns of goat suggesting not only the vulva (I had
not considered that before seeing the thought raised here) but a
failure to reach the ultimate depicted at the top of the card. Third
eye of goat of Mendes suggestive of not only the Adjna, but of Da'at
-- thus with the horns, implying a blockage of the attainment of
Keter. There are other aspects: garland, four-fold in the hoofs and
gonads, etc. Even the fact that the genitallia of the goat are not
seen in the same form as the balance of the figure is significant.
>You're always hinting like this. If there's 'more', then
>why not say what 'more' there is and what it means?
Mainly because it stifles thinking. Better to hint and let it run a
while. If there is interest, more can be said after the discussion
boggs down a bit.
>But you'll never be able to do that in public, will you?
Some yes, some no.
>> Somehow, an association with Mars got in there,
>Maybe that's got something to do with people having
>big eyes to see with, like the Big Bad Wolf.
Mars would have played better by looking to Ovid.
>> which has since
>> mutated into a discussion of sexual PC. Not my topic.
>Speaking of topics, the one here is tarot. I would
>invite you to discuss Crowley's XV-Devil card in detail.
>Tell us everything you know about its true meanings.
Not everything. I side with Pilate on that one, Browning's remark
not withstanding.
>> Beter to extrapolate than to evacuate, given the conformity of the
>> object.
>Better to speak clearly, or not waste time.
Ok. Here's a remark corresponding to the Atu and traditional Tarot:
The truth told to a Fool is a lie.
>> >> Crowley probably intended something of the kind, but not simply.
>>
>> >If not 'simply', then what 'complexly'?
>>
>> Either that or a related, simple topic.
>You're starting to sound like A. E. Waite, Bill---you know,
>Mr. Hint-a-lot.
But my circumlocations are shorter and my eclypsis far less
polysylibic. :-)
>> >I meant of course that women in OTO, certainly up till recently,
>> >have been idolized more for their utility, than respected
>> >for their humanity. Not that this is anything uniquely
>> >egregious on OTO's part---OTO male managers simply reflected
>> >their cultural prejudices.
>>
>> I can't say I agree with that.
>You can't say it, because it would violate your responsibilities
>as OTO PR guy. Yeah, I know.
Not on that one. I disagree with it, but lack a certitude of your
exact meaning.
>> Women are about 50% of OTO,
>You mean they are worth half as much?
By numbers, 50%. By tradition, worth more than half of OTO.
>> run many
>> of the official bodies,
>How many women have been OHO of OTO?
None, so far. However, there have been only five in total (Kellner
died before the title came into use).
>How many women did Aleister Crowley consider for
>succession to OHO of OTO?
Difficult to say, since I am not aware that he did say. One of his
Grand Officers was a woman early on.
>How many women did Karl Germer consider for succession to
>OHO of OTO?
Two, apparently -- not obvious that he ever considered anybody to
succeed him, but he did raise the question of two different women, now
dead, as potential members of a triumverate to govern OTO.
>Why did Phyllis Seckler feel as she did about the rituals
>and teachings of OTO? Was she just an uppity bitch?
Aside from a personal problem with her relation to Grady, I don't know
the subject of your allusion. Soror Merel is still alive and active.
>> compose half of the IXth degree and can hold
>> any office in OTO.
>Any woman can hold the office of President of the United
>States, or Vice-President, or Speaker of the House of
>Representatives, or Chief Justice of the Supreme Court,
>too.
Right, haven't got one yet there either.
>> Idolized, yes, but not in a utilitarian way.
>Any sort of 'idolization' of women by men tends to remove
>the need for men to deal with women as human equals.
True. Unless they think non-linearly. In the latter case, no problem
with this. Manipulation of belief and archetype is essential to
Magick. It doesn't justify overlooking bill-paying time and personal
relations.
>Sounds pretty Victorian to me.
Very.
>> Crowley's social limitations and 19th century hausfrauism
>Seems to me very much in step with the writings of the
>leadership of OTO.
It's a vulnerbility of a lot of males. I don't see it as strongly in
OTO leadership as elsewhere, but it's obviously present to an extent.
OTO Sisters are sometimes know to use it as a gambit with the
Brothers, just as others do in other society.
>What's the highest degree in OTO now, X, XI, XII...XXIV...
>hike, hike.
Initiated, IX. Administrative, XII. XIth not in OTO in that sense.
>> In OTO, the
>> divine aspect of woman is a little more reverenced than that of man.
>'a little more reverenced' by whom? By the men who make all
>this shit up?
Formally and in the constitution of the OTO. Otherwise by varying
practice, both male and female.
Reuss put in that a woman unmarried and pregnant is the most valorous
type of person on earth. He wanted to set up a protective facility
for such, but I don't think "Uncle Theo's Home for Wayward Girls"
would have quite passed the mustard. :-)
93 93/93
Bill
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