The Majors
Nicole
things which we probably all know but this list is based on 'extra'
things or how I've come to understand them over the years:
Mag-The questioner and what they can and can't do in relation to their
question.
High Priestess-Inaction or silence as a tool, as a form of agreement
or consent. The answer is probably not known or deliberately withheld
which may explain why some learners actually hate this card.
Priest-Goodness, best practice, one's parents, society or 'everyman'
Empress-I'm starting to believe that this card actually means an
ordeal or issue. It's desire to be desired, understanding other
peoples characters
Emperor-Understanding onesself, being rational. A genius.
Lovers-Just sex, 'it's up to you', tests of any kind (medical,
spelling bee, drivers')
Strength-Unhealthy attraction
Justice-Something needs justifying, levelling and accounting for, make
your mind up. The law.
Hermit-Cautious to a fault, tutor, not enough of something
Chariot-Career, resistance? the dynamics within a group
Tower-Cleaning? nervous breakdown
Star-Singing/music, bathing, relaxation or a break, being the object
of someone's fantasy
Moon-Fear
Judgement-An inner call or personal epiphany such as the need to be in
a relationship, a coming of age, an inprovement
mary cain
"Nicole" <paper...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:63916d35-aa41-4316...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> Here are some of my views on the Majors, they mean alot of other
> things which we probably all know but this list is based on 'extra'
> things or how I've come to understand them over the years:
>
> Mag-The questioner and what they can and can't do in relation to their
> question.
*The Magus is Mercury, as such he is the ultimate messenger. He, being the
next level up from the Magician, contains all the properties of the
Magician, including mastery of 'sleight of hand'. A person or situation
represented by the Magus has an agenda (or purpose, if you prefer). His
natural tendency is to be honest and forthright but he can practice sleight
of hand to accomplish the task before him. (in astrology Mercury is never
more than 30 degrees from the Sun).
In a reading the Magus presides over 'the rules of engagement',
correspondences, things that come up swiftly from a point of inspiration.
The book says he is the Law and the conditions under which it is uttered.
His Achiles Heel is the Princesses.
> High Priestess-Inaction or silence as a tool, as a form of agreement
> or consent. The answer is probably not known or deliberately withheld
> which may explain why some learners actually hate this card.
> Priest-Goodness, best practice, one's parents, society or 'everyman'
Sequentially placed after Mercury, the High Priestess represents the Moon
(and is the other side of the Moon card). She represents the cycles of
femininity...the fullness and depletion as the Moon waxing and waning.
Thus, in a reading, she represents fluctuation and change. It is important
to note that while the division of gender is starting to manifest in these
first two cards, actual activity is not implied. Thus, both represent (as
the aces) the purest form of their concept.
> Empress-I'm starting to believe that this card actually means an
> ordeal or issue. It's desire to be desired, understanding other
> peoples characters
*The Empress relates to the planet Venus...Goddess of Love and Fertility.
It is written that these first four cards stand above the abyss but that all
beyond this point will be below. So, she is the mother of stars, in a
manner of speaking. She is also attributed to Daleth (which isn't the
Hebrew spelling IIRC, and I don't know why Crowley changed the spellings or
if I'd agree with him if I did know.) Assuming he didn't also change the
meaning...Daleth means a door or gateway. So, she would represent the
soul's descent to this realm.
In a reading she is very generous, by far the easiest card to get to know.
She is the exalted aspects of motherhood, generational feminine nurturing.
And, it is at this point that the sexuality becomes manifest in its fullness
and so has some identity with the story of Eve.
> Emperor-Understanding onesself, being rational. A genius.
*The Emperor is the manifestation of Aries, the first of the twelve zodiacal
attributes. He is a four and as all the fours represents a system become
manifest, the rules of Law, but also the limitations of all such systems.
In a reading he is to the masculine the mirror of the Empress to the
feminine. Where she is gentle, he is strong (and can, if not modified be
too harsh or tyrannical). He Represents the rule of Law in the world we
live in. He can mean everything from a run in with the law to a dominant
father figure.
> Lovers-Just sex, 'it's up to you', tests of any kind (medical,
> spelling bee, drivers')
*We've got an active thread about the Lovers...they represent Gemini and you
have omitted the Heirophant (who represents Taurus...just so we keep the
sequence.
> Strength-Unhealthy attraction
??? The Chariot which is zodiacally attributed to Cancer.
Cancer in astrology is 'the house of the mother of the consultant'. So, the
Chariot has to do with matters of lineage and is often representative of
family matters. He is the blood of lineage, a mother's son.
> Justice-Something needs justifying, levelling and accounting for, make
> your mind up. The law.
*Adjustment = Libra. (out of sequence because of rotation) she also
represents Karma. She is the act of balancing and weighing the ends against
the means. It is said that she is judgment and when the Fool also appears
with her in a reading, the decision is final. She is the harbinger to the
judgment that is finalized in trump XXI.
> Hermit-Cautious to a fault, tutor, not enough of something
*Hermit = Virgo. IIRC Virgo in astrology is the house of higher learning.
At any rate, Virgo represents subtle, almost secret, guidance...the light
house, the messenger.
He is, as you say, cautious to a fault and (in certain circumstances) Virgo
can represent inhibitions.
> Chariot-Career, resistance? the dynamics within a group
* Waite blind!
X Wheel of Fortune = Jupiter. The element of luck (good or bad but usually
indicative of good unless modified by other cards).
XI Lust = Leo (which should be astrologically placed between the Chariot
and the Hermit). Is compatible but in contrast to Strength.
XII = The Hanged Man...one of the three mother letters...no planetary or
zodiacal attribute...Voluntary or enforced self-sacrifice. This card means
inertia and there is no guarantee that what ever it is representing will
ever get active again. It presides over plans on hold, spiritual halts,
etc.
XIII = Death. Scorpio. Regeneration, death, radical departure from
previous conditions, secrecy and the human sexuality. Secret affairs both
sexual and otherwise.
XIV = Art = Sagittarius. The compliment to the Lovers and the cards should
be contemplated together for best understanding.
XV = The Devil = Capricorn. Endurance, stubborness, barren places or
circumstances. Open enemies, being bound dowm or oppressed. Emphasis on
the sexuality with negative connotations.
Tower-Cleaning? nervous breakdown.
XVI = The Tower = Mars (the God of War and Destruction). The blasted tower
means fighting and war. It is all encompassing which is to say all of that
reading are at odds.
Star-Singing/music, bathing, relaxation or a break, being the object
> of someone's fantasy
*The Star = Aquarius. Higher learning, teachers, divine intervention,
nurturing of oneself. Education.
> Moon-Fear
> Judgement-An inner call or personal epiphany such as the need to be in
> a relationship, a coming of age, an inprovement
*The Moon = Pisces. This is called the house of Karma.
The Moon is the other side of the Priestess and, as such, should be
comparison studied as with the Lovers and Art. It is hidden enemies, the
Dark Night of the Soul, the last stage before important change
XIX The Sun = planetary attribution to the Sun but is some decks is
attributed to Pisces. It is the card of the morning after, the sun coming
out after the dark night. Usually a very positive card.
XX = The Aeon = No assigned to any planetary or astrological attributes.
The beginning of a new journey.
XXI = The Universe...the World and much more...the new World begins. The
end of the matter in question.
Al Smith
> news:63916d35-aa41-4316...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>> > Here are some of my views on the Majors, they mean alot of other
>> > things which we probably all know but this list is based on 'extra'
>> > things or how I've come to understand them over the years:
>> >
>> > Mag-The questioner and what they can and can't do in relation to their
>> > question.
>
> *The Magus is Mercury, as such he is the ultimate messenger. He, being the
> next level up from the Magician, contains all the properties of the
> Magician, including mastery of 'sleight of hand'. A person or situation
> represented by the Magus has an agenda (or purpose, if you prefer). His
> natural tendency is to be honest and forthright but he can practice sleight
> of hand to accomplish the task before him. (in astrology Mercury is never
> more than 30 degrees from the Sun).
>
> In a reading the Magus presides over 'the rules of engagement',
> correspondences, things that come up swiftly from a point of inspiration.
> The book says he is the Law and the conditions under which it is uttered.
> His Achiles Heel is the Princesses.
>
I suppose I'm being obvious when I point out the the Magus and the
Magician are the same card? The Magician has both a lower, mundane
interpretation, and a higher, spiritual interpretation. The Magician
is never honest and forthright, on either level. He is deceptive and
subtle, complex and enigmatic, surprising and manipulative. There is
nothing simple about him.
>> > High Priestess-Inaction or silence as a tool, as a form of agreement
>> > or consent. The answer is probably not known or deliberately withheld
>> > which may explain why some learners actually hate this card.
>> > Priest-Goodness, best practice, one's parents, society or 'everyman'
>
> Sequentially placed after Mercury, the High Priestess represents the Moon
> (and is the other side of the Moon card). She represents the cycles of
> femininity...the fullness and depletion as the Moon waxing and waning.
>
> Thus, in a reading, she represents fluctuation and change. It is important
> to note that while the division of gender is starting to manifest in these
> first two cards, actual activity is not implied. Thus, both represent (as
> the aces) the purest form of their concept.
>
The Priestess is the feminine aspect of religion -- its secret,
inner aspect, its quiet strength, its wisdom, its silence.
>> > Empress-I'm starting to believe that this card actually means an
>> > ordeal or issue. It's desire to be desired, understanding other
>> > peoples characters
>
> *The Empress relates to the planet Venus...Goddess of Love and Fertility.
> It is written that these first four cards stand above the abyss but that all
> beyond this point will be below. So, she is the mother of stars, in a
> manner of speaking. She is also attributed to Daleth (which isn't the
> Hebrew spelling IIRC, and I don't know why Crowley changed the spellings or
> if I'd agree with him if I did know.) Assuming he didn't also change the
> meaning...Daleth means a door or gateway. So, she would represent the
> soul's descent to this realm.
>
> In a reading she is very generous, by far the easiest card to get to know.
> She is the exalted aspects of motherhood, generational feminine nurturing.
> And, it is at this point that the sexuality becomes manifest in its fullness
> and so has some identity with the story of Eve.
>
Both the Priestess and the Empress are pregnant. Their swollen
bellies (which are obvious in the Marseilles cards) indicate
something nurtured within that is about to come forth. In the case
of the Empress, it is the birth of new life upon the face of the
earth, the flowering of spring. What the Priestess nurtures within
her womb is a Mystery, to be revealed only to the initiated. The
Priestess will give birth in secret beneath the Moon, the Empress
will give birth openly beneath the Sun.
>> > Emperor-Understanding onesself, being rational. A genius.
>
> *The Emperor is the manifestation of Aries, the first of the twelve zodiacal
> attributes. He is a four and as all the fours represents a system become
> manifest, the rules of Law, but also the limitations of all such systems.
>
> In a reading he is to the masculine the mirror of the Empress to the
> feminine. Where she is gentle, he is strong (and can, if not modified be
> too harsh or tyrannical). He Represents the rule of Law in the world we
> live in. He can mean everything from a run in with the law to a dominant
> father figure.
The Emperor is the father of the race, the father of the nation, the
father of gods and men. He is typified by four-fold Zeus, and by
Woden the all-father, the mate to the Empress, the mother of the race.
>
>> > Lovers-Just sex, 'it's up to you', tests of any kind (medical,
>> > spelling bee, drivers')
>
> *We've got an active thread about the Lovers...they represent Gemini and you
> have omitted the Heirophant (who represents Taurus...just so we keep the
> sequence.
>
The Hierophant is the masculine aspect of religion, its laws and the
enforcement of those laws. He represents the Ten Commandments and
the dictate "Thou shalt not!" The Priestess and Hierophant (called
the Female Pope and Pope in the Marseilles deck) form a pair, just
as do the Empress and Emperor. Their old names indicate this beyond
any doubt. One represents religious authority, its female and male
sides, and the other, secular authority, its female and male sides.
The Lovers are the act of sexual union formalized by religion and by
law in the form of marriage. Marriage must be sanctioned by both the
Pope and the Emperor, who each places his conditions upon the union.
It is thus not raw sexual coupling, but sexual union approved and
civilized by the church and the state, for the higher purposes of
church and state.
>> > Strength-Unhealthy attraction
>
> ??? The Chariot which is zodiacally attributed to Cancer.
> Cancer in astrology is 'the house of the mother of the consultant'. So, the
> Chariot has to do with matters of lineage and is often representative of
> family matters. He is the blood of lineage, a mother's son.
>
The Chariot is out of place in the sequence of trumps. The card
Temperance should come here, and Strength should fall in the usual
place of Temperance. The sexual union of the Lovers has its higher,
spiritual aspect, where sex is sublimed into something more
mysterious and subtle, an alchemical mingling of opposite energies.
Take a look at what Crowley did with the Lovers and Temperance, and
you will see why these two cards should come one after the other in
the trump sequence.
>> > Justice-Something needs justifying, levelling and accounting for, make
>> > your mind up. The law.
>
> *Adjustment = Libra. (out of sequence because of rotation) she also
> represents Karma. She is the act of balancing and weighing the ends against
> the means. It is said that she is judgment and when the Fool also appears
> with her in a reading, the decision is final. She is the harbinger to the
> judgment that is finalized in trump XXI.
>
She is not so much balance as adjustment (the name Crowley gave to
this trump). Justice is not fixed by is always moving in
compensation to circumstances. It is dynamic in its actions. The bar
of the scales is not fixed but swings up or down in response to the
weights placed in its pans. The sword is double-edged and cuts both
ways. Justice is like an automatic governor in a machine that keeps
the machine running at a constant rate of speed, without either
slowing to a stop, or running away with itself and exploding.
>> > Hermit-Cautious to a fault, tutor, not enough of something
>
> *Hermit = Virgo. IIRC Virgo in astrology is the house of higher learning.
> At any rate, Virgo represents subtle, almost secret, guidance...the light
> house, the messenger.
>
> He is, as you say, cautious to a fault and (in certain circumstances) Virgo
> can represent inhibitions.
>
The Hermit or Monk is a religious figure who has withdrawn from the
world. He represents spiritual study and meditation, a pause in
life, refuge from chaos, sanctuary, shelter from the storm. He does
not particularly represent guidance -- he carries a lamp to light
his own path, not to guide anyone else to him. He is prudence, and
takes care to look before he steps. Similarly, he thinks before he
speaks.
>> > Chariot-Career, resistance? the dynamics within a group
>
> * Waite blind!
>
This is not the place of the Chariot.
> X Wheel of Fortune = Jupiter. The element of luck (good or bad but usually
> indicative of good unless modified by other cards).
>
Not a difficult card to understand, since the concept of the turning
wheel of goddess Fortune was common in Renaissance times. Some men
see their fortunes improve, others see them decline, nor is it
possible to predict which it will be. The association of the card
with Jupiter (which is incorrect, but is the usual association)
indicates that the fortune involved will generally be favorable.
That is, Fortune in the abstract turns up or down, but this card
falling in a reading indicates (usually) a turn for the better. If
it is inverted, the opposite.
> XI Lust = Leo (which should be astrologically placed between the Chariot
> and the Hermit). Is compatible but in contrast to Strength.
>
Why is Fortitude a woman? Because true strength is spiritual, not
physical. The woman tames the wild masculine virility, represented
by the iconic lion, solar king of beasts, merely by the strength of
her courage and conviction. The strength of the mind, of the human
will, dominated and commands the wild physical strength of the
natural world. It is not so much Lust, but lust conquered and subdued.
> XII = The Hanged Man...one of the three mother letters...no planetary or
> zodiacal attribute...Voluntary or enforced self-sacrifice. This card means
> inertia and there is no guarantee that what ever it is representing will
> ever get active again. It presides over plans on hold, spiritual halts,
> etc.
>
The most mysterious of all the Tarot cards. It is indeed a card of
sacrifice, but the sacrifice is not voluntary. The Hanged Man is
anything but happy, as you can see if you look at the older versions
of this card. His sacrifice is involuntary and enforced upon him,
but even so, he has been transformed by it, and is about to receive
a revelation of a spiritual kind, some great truth that he can
almost see, yet not quite make out clearly. He stares down into the
pit of the earth, just as Woden stared down at the roots of the
world Tree, from which he snatched up the runes, his gift to his
people. The Hanged Man, through no wish of his, has become the
messenger of the gods, and soon -- but not quite yet -- he will
receive the great Truth. He is in suspension, and is still waiting
for the revelation.
> XIII = Death. Scorpio. Regeneration, death, radical departure from
> previous conditions, secrecy and the human sexuality. Secret affairs both
> sexual and otherwise.
>
Ah, Death, where is thy sting? In the tale/tail of the Scorpion,
ring-a-ding-ding. The allure of mortality, the lust for finality,
for completion, for the orgasm that at last ends the tormenting
sexual tension. The attraction of suicide. The allure of narcotics.
The sweet seduction of oblivion. The peace of the grave. The beauty
of the skull and bones. The emptiness beckons, but fear makes us
hesitate. What is Death hiding behind his cloak? Sweet poison.
> XIV = Art = Sagittarius. The compliment to the Lovers and the cards should
> be contemplated together for best understanding.
>
Here, the Chariot of War should roll over the godly and ungodly
alike, crushing them beneath its iron-rimmed wheels. The sweet
seduction of Death is in the Chariot actualized. The poison has been
swallowed. War rages. Destruction is a new artform, painted on the
canvas of the battlefield with the blood of the innocent. Ah, heady
rush to destroy, that knows not where it goes, but is merely
intoxicated by the rushing motion. There is a purity in war. It does
not rationalize, or justify, or explain -- it simply is.
> XV = The Devil = Capricorn. Endurance, stubborness, barren places or
> circumstances. Open enemies, being bound dowm or oppressed. Emphasis on
> the sexuality with negative connotations.
>
The Devil is the randy goat, always ready to couple for the pleasure
of the act, with no thought of church or state, no need for formal
vows or licenses, or rules of any kind. He has no morality of any
kind, and does not hesitate. His exultation is in the moment when
the hymen is ruptured and the blood flows. That is his reason to
exist, only that moment, repeated endlessly without variation. The
Devil has no imagination at all, and needs none. He is his own
fulfillment, his own justification, utterly selfish and unaware.
> Tower-Cleaning? nervous breakdown.
>
> XVI = The Tower = Mars (the God of War and Destruction). The blasted tower
> means fighting and war. It is all encompassing which is to say all of that
> reading are at odds.
>
The name of this card is the Blasted Tower, or the Tower Struck by
Lightning. It is not named the Tower. It is not a house, but a house
in the act of falling to ruin. It is the Tower of Babel, the fall of
the hope of mankind. The destruction comes from on high, an act of
God, inevitable retribution for past accumulated errors. From on
high those that were lifted up are cast back down to the earth.
> Star-Singing/music, bathing, relaxation or a break, being the object
>> > of someone's fantasy
>
> *The Star = Aquarius. Higher learning, teachers, divine intervention,
> nurturing of oneself. Education.
>
This card is the star of Hope. In the Blasted Tower hope is lost,
but in the Star hope is preserved. The beaming of the Dog Star marks
the flood of the Nile, and the return of fertility to the land.
Water meets land, and from this meeting arises new growth. The mood
is one of tranquil peace, a charmed hush foreshadowing a new beginning.
>> > Moon-Fear
>> > Judgement-An inner call or personal epiphany such as the need to be in
>> > a relationship, a coming of age, an inprovement
>
> *The Moon = Pisces. This is called the house of Karma.
> The Moon is the other side of the Priestess and, as such, should be
> comparison studied as with the Lovers and Art. It is hidden enemies, the
> Dark Night of the Soul, the last stage before important change
>
The most evil of the trumps, there is nothing good about this card.
The dogs are mad. They foam at the mouths and snap at the droplets
of dew that fall from the Moon into the stagnant pool, from which
emerges by stealth a crayfish with a stone in each claw. The stones
represent strife. When the dogs are distracted by madness, the
crayfish creeps up on them with murderous intent, for this is a card
of crime and of murders both large and small. In the guard towers,
the guards sleep a trouble sleep that is disturbed by nightmares.
They guard nothing, not even themselves. The Moon presses down upon
the land with her sharp points as though to gouge it and make it
bleed. The path winds into darkness and desolation, every footfall
along it a danger.
> XIX The Sun = planetary attribution to the Sun but is some decks is
> attributed to Pisces. It is the card of the morning after, the sun coming
> out after the dark night. Usually a very positive card.
>
The light of day after a dark night of the soul. The return of
clarity and faith, a resolution to the night fears that formerly
vexed us. The werewolves have retreated back to their dens. The path
can be walked with safety once again, and does not need to be
watched. Warmth causes flowers to blood and the breeze to blow. The
white horse is the beast of the Sun, just as the dogs were the
beasts of the Moon. The children evident on the Marseilles trump
represent renewal, the promise of the Star fulfilled in the world.
The wall is order built from chaos.
> XX = The Aeon = No assigned to any planetary or astrological attributes.
> The beginning of a new journey.
>
> XXI = The Universe...the World and much more...the new World begins. The
> end of the matter in question.
>
>
The goddess of the World dances her endless dance of karma, a spiral
dance through time and space. She stands on one foot, for she is
undivided in her purpose. Everything is unfolding according to
divine plan. The stars reel through the heavens, the sun and moon
rise and set, the tides advance and retreat, winter comes and summer
comes. Eternal change.
mary cain
"Al Smith" <inv...@address.com> wrote in message
news:6vI4k.1243$sg6.299@edtnps91...
>> "Nicole" <paper...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:63916d35-aa41-4316...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>>> > Here are some of my views on the Majors, they mean alot of other
>>> > things which we probably all know but this list is based on 'extra'
>>> > things or how I've come to understand them over the years:
>>> >
>>> > Mag-The questioner and what they can and can't do in relation to their
>>> > question.
>>
>> *The Magus is Mercury, as such he is the ultimate messenger. He, being
>> the next level up from the Magician, contains all the properties of the
>> Magician, including mastery of 'sleight of hand'. A person or situation
>> represented by the Magus has an agenda (or purpose, if you prefer). His
>> natural tendency is to be honest and forthright but he can practice
>> sleight of hand to accomplish the task before him. (in astrology Mercury
>> is never more than 30 degrees from the Sun).
>>
>> In a reading the Magus presides over 'the rules of engagement',
>> correspondences, things that come up swiftly from a point of inspiration.
>> The book says he is the Law and the conditions under which it is uttered.
>> His Achiles Heel is the Princesses.
>>
>
>
> I suppose I'm being obvious when I point out the the Magus and the
> Magician are the same card? The Magician has both a lower, mundane
> interpretation, and a higher, spiritual interpretation. The Magician is
> never honest and forthright, on either level. He is deceptive and subtle,
> complex and enigmatic, surprising and manipulative. There is nothing
> simple about him.
**True enough. The only difference that I would see would be if you adapt
to the Christian flavor of the cards. Mercury is a prankster at times,
especially the youthful Mercury. However, as a 'Magus' certain integrities
should be maintained (indeed, cannot be degraded by some
standards)...Crowley, whether just to be controversial or not, did say that
under certain circumstances, said integrities would take a back seat to the
purpose at hand.
>
>>> > High Priestess-Inaction or silence as a tool, as a form of agreement
>>> > or consent. The answer is probably not known or deliberately withheld
>>> > which may explain why some learners actually hate this card.
>>> > Priest-Goodness, best practice, one's parents, society or 'everyman'
>>
>> Sequentially placed after Mercury, the High Priestess represents the Moon
>> (and is the other side of the Moon card). She represents the cycles of
>> femininity...the fullness and depletion as the Moon waxing and waning.
>>
>> Thus, in a reading, she represents fluctuation and change. It is
>> important to note that while the division of gender is starting to
>> manifest in these first two cards, actual activity is not implied. Thus,
>> both represent (as the aces) the purest form of their concept.
>>
>
> The Priestess is the feminine aspect of religion -- its secret, inner
> aspect, its quiet strength, its wisdom, its silence.
**She is the eternal youth...chaste, that graduates into the Empress. She
is the head of matriarchial as the Magus is the head of patriarchial
spirituality. She is mystery, he is mainfested law. Just as Mercury is
said to rotate always within 30 degrees of the Sun...the Moon is said to be
a dark, lifeless orb without the light of the Sun to reflect. (this does
not, btw, conflict with what you say about being pregnant below).
>>> > Empress-I'm starting to believe that this card actually means an
>>> > ordeal or issue. It's desire to be desired, understanding other
>>> > peoples characters
>>
>> *The Empress relates to the planet Venus...Goddess of Love and Fertility.
>> It is written that these first four cards stand above the abyss but that
>> all beyond this point will be below. So, she is the mother of stars, in
>> a manner of speaking. She is also attributed to Daleth (which isn't the
>> Hebrew spelling IIRC, and I don't know why Crowley changed the spellings
>> or if I'd agree with him if I did know.) Assuming he didn't also change
>> the meaning...Daleth means a door or gateway. So, she would represent
>> the soul's descent to this realm.
>>
>> In a reading she is very generous, by far the easiest card to get to
>> know. She is the exalted aspects of motherhood, generational feminine
>> nurturing. And, it is at this point that the sexuality becomes manifest
>> in its fullness and so has some identity with the story of Eve.
>>
>
> Both the Priestess and the Empress are pregnant. Their swollen bellies
> (which are obvious in the Marseilles cards) indicate something nurtured
> within that is about to come forth. In the case of the Empress, it is the
> birth of new life upon the face of the earth, the flowering of spring.
> What the Priestess nurtures within her womb is a Mystery, to be revealed
> only to the initiated. The Priestess will give birth in secret beneath the
> Moon, the Empress will give birth openly beneath the Sun.
**A very interesting take on the two. I very much like the concept.
>>> > Emperor-Understanding onesself, being rational. A genius.
>>
>> *The Emperor is the manifestation of Aries, the first of the twelve
>> zodiacal attributes. He is a four and as all the fours represents a
>> system become manifest, the rules of Law, but also the limitations of all
>> such systems.
>>
>> In a reading he is to the masculine the mirror of the Empress to the
>> feminine. Where she is gentle, he is strong (and can, if not modified be
>> too harsh or tyrannical). He Represents the rule of Law in the world we
>> live in. He can mean everything from a run in with the law to a dominant
>> father figure.
>
>
> The Emperor is the father of the race, the father of the nation, the
> father of gods and men. He is typified by four-fold Zeus, and by Woden the
> all-father, the mate to the Empress, the mother of the race.
**No disagreement here either.
>>> > Lovers-Just sex, 'it's up to you', tests of any kind (medical,
>>> > spelling bee, drivers')
>>
>> *We've got an active thread about the Lovers...they represent Gemini and
>> you have omitted the Heirophant (who represents Taurus...just so we keep
>> the sequence.
>>
>
> The Hierophant is the masculine aspect of religion, its laws and the
> enforcement of those laws. He represents the Ten Commandments and the
> dictate "Thou shalt not!" The Priestess and Hierophant (called the Female
> Pope and Pope in the Marseilles deck) form a pair, just as do the Empress
> and Emperor. Their old names indicate this beyond any doubt. One
> represents religious authority, its female and male sides, and the other,
> secular authority, its female and male sides.
**IIRC - Crowley pairs the Empress with the Heirophant. I find your
perspective interesting, though. I think the Thoth deck pairs the Priestess
with the Magus.
> The Lovers are the act of sexual union formalized by religion and by law
> in the form of marriage. Marriage must be sanctioned by both the Pope and
> the Emperor, who each places his conditions upon the union. It is thus not
> raw sexual coupling, but sexual union approved and civilized by the church
> and the state, for the higher purposes of church and state.
**Yes, and there's a lot of water under that bridge. >:-) Crowley says
'union to a shallow degree' but reading the text gives the impression of
naive and innocent moreso than fickle. I got in trouble once, a long while
back by saying that trumps VI, XIV and XIX form a trine - somewhat like a
grand trine in astrology...and then not being able to back it up textually.
I still see the trine though only the Lovers and Art are indesputably
linked.
>>> > Strength-Unhealthy attraction
>>
>> ??? The Chariot which is zodiacally attributed to Cancer.
>> Cancer in astrology is 'the house of the mother of the consultant'. So,
>> the Chariot has to do with matters of lineage and is often representative
>> of family matters. He is the blood of lineage, a mother's son.
>>
>
> The Chariot is out of place in the sequence of trumps. The card Temperance
> should come here, and Strength should fall in the usual place of
> Temperance. The sexual union of the Lovers has its higher, spiritual
> aspect, where sex is sublimed into something more mysterious and subtle,
> an alchemical mingling of opposite energies. Take a look at what Crowley
> did with the Lovers and Temperance, and you will see why these two cards
> should come one after the other in the trump sequence.
**Then you would destroy the sequencing of astrological assignment or change
the assignments on the cards so that Temperance/Art became affiliated with
the sign of Cancer? That doesn't work for me...could you please go further
with your logic as I do find what you're saying very interesting.
Upon doing a little checking instead firing off the top of my head I find
that the Dali deck, (I don't currently have a Waite deck but think that Dali
didn't depart from the Waite sequencing?), also places the Chariot at VII.
As for the pairing...I always took the distance between the Lovers and Art
to be as the distance between the Priestess and the Moon, etc.
>>> > Justice-Something needs justifying, levelling and accounting for, make
>>> > your mind up. The law.
>>
>> *Adjustment = Libra. (out of sequence because of rotation) she also
>> represents Karma. She is the act of balancing and weighing the ends
>> against the means. It is said that she is judgment and when the Fool
>> also appears with her in a reading, the decision is final. She is the
>> harbinger to the judgment that is finalized in trump XXI.
>>
>
> She is not so much balance as adjustment (the name Crowley gave to this
> trump). Justice is not fixed by is always moving in compensation to
> circumstances. It is dynamic in its actions. The bar of the scales is not
> fixed but swings up or down in response to the weights placed in its pans.
> The sword is double-edged and cuts both ways. Justice is like an automatic
> governor in a machine that keeps the machine running at a constant rate of
> speed, without either slowing to a stop, or running away with itself and
> exploding.
**No disagreement here either.
>>> > Hermit-Cautious to a fault, tutor, not enough of something
>>
>> *Hermit = Virgo. IIRC Virgo in astrology is the house of higher
>> learning. At any rate, Virgo represents subtle, almost secret,
>> guidance...the light house, the messenger.
>>
>> He is, as you say, cautious to a fault and (in certain circumstances)
>> Virgo can represent inhibitions.
>>
>
>
> The Hermit or Monk is a religious figure who has withdrawn from the world.
> He represents spiritual study and meditation, a pause in life, refuge from
> chaos, sanctuary, shelter from the storm. He does not particularly
> represent guidance -- he carries a lamp to light his own path, not to
> guide anyone else to him. He is prudence, and takes care to look before he
> steps. Similarly, he thinks before he speaks.
**All in agreement except that the identity with Psychopompos would make him
a guide.
>>> > Chariot-Career, resistance? the dynamics within a group
>>
>> * Waite blind!
>>
>
> This is not the place of the Chariot.
>
>
>> X Wheel of Fortune = Jupiter. The element of luck (good or bad but
>> usually indicative of good unless modified by other cards).
>>
>
>
> Not a difficult card to understand, since the concept of the turning wheel
> of goddess Fortune was common in Renaissance times. Some men see their
> fortunes improve, others see them decline, nor is it possible to predict
> which it will be. The association of the card with Jupiter (which is
> incorrect, but is the usual association) indicates that the fortune
> involved will generally be favorable. That is, Fortune in the abstract
> turns up or down, but this card falling in a reading indicates (usually) a
> turn for the better. If it is inverted, the opposite.
**Why not Jupiter?
>> XI Lust = Leo (which should be astrologically placed between the Chariot
>> and the Hermit). Is compatible but in contrast to Strength.
>>
>
> Why is Fortitude a woman? Because true strength is spiritual, not
> physical. The woman tames the wild masculine virility, represented by the
> iconic lion, solar king of beasts, merely by the strength of her courage
> and conviction. The strength of the mind, of the human will, dominated and
> commands the wild physical strength of the natural world. It is not so
> much Lust, but lust conquered and subdued.
>
** The joy of strength exercized...my favorite part.!
>> XII = The Hanged Man...one of the three mother letters...no planetary or
>> zodiacal attribute...Voluntary or enforced self-sacrifice. This card
>> means inertia and there is no guarantee that what ever it is representing
>> will ever get active again. It presides over plans on hold, spiritual
>> halts, etc.
>>
>
> The most mysterious of all the Tarot cards. It is indeed a card of
> sacrifice, but the sacrifice is not voluntary. The Hanged Man is anything
> but happy, as you can see if you look at the older versions of this card.
> His sacrifice is involuntary and enforced upon him, but even so, he has
> been transformed by it, and is about to receive a revelation of a
> spiritual kind, some great truth that he can almost see, yet not quite
> make out clearly. He stares down into the pit of the earth, just as Woden
> stared down at the roots of the world Tree, from which he snatched up the
> runes, his gift to his people. The Hanged Man, through no wish of his, has
> become the messenger of the gods, and soon -- but not quite yet -- he will
> receive the great Truth. He is in suspension, and is still waiting for the
> revelation.
**I did say or enforced...I think the voluntary takes into consideration
that Jesus had to either be stripped of power or acquiesced to crucifixion.
Also, there is some indication that the upside down way the Hanged Man is
positioned might relate to Judas and certain theories on his being 'chosen'
and other matters similar. (as spelled out in the Book of Judas), and the
other matters relate IIRC to the crucifixion of John (who requested that he
be inverted). There is also a faith/superstition about the afterlife that
made inverted crucifixion preferable, I think.
>> XIII = Death. Scorpio. Regeneration, death, radical departure from
>> previous conditions, secrecy and the human sexuality. Secret affairs
>> both sexual and otherwise.
>>
>
> Ah, Death, where is thy sting? In the tale/tail of the Scorpion,
> ring-a-ding-ding. The allure of mortality, the lust for finality, for
> completion, for the orgasm that at last ends the tormenting sexual
> tension. The attraction of suicide. The allure of narcotics. The sweet
> seduction of oblivion. The peace of the grave. The beauty of the skull and
> bones. The emptiness beckons, but fear makes us hesitate. What is Death
> hiding behind his cloak? Sweet poison.
**I surmise you have contemplated this card at length? >:-) I enjoyed your
take on it very much.
>> XIV = Art = Sagittarius. The compliment to the Lovers and the cards
>> should be contemplated together for best understanding.
>>
>
> Here, the Chariot of War should roll over the godly and ungodly alike,
> crushing them beneath its iron-rimmed wheels. The sweet seduction of Death
> is in the Chariot actualized. The poison has been swallowed. War rages.
> Destruction is a new artform, painted on the canvas of the battlefield
> with the blood of the innocent. Ah, heady rush to destroy, that knows not
> where it goes, but is merely intoxicated by the rushing motion. There is a
> purity in war. It does not rationalize, or justify, or explain -- it
> simply is.
**You are identifying it with Jaganath? What do you do with the
astrological aspects? Could concepts as Shiva and Saggitarius be
compatable? This would be after card XIII also?
>> XV = The Devil = Capricorn. Endurance, stubborness, barren places or
>> circumstances. Open enemies, being bound dowm or oppressed. Emphasis on
>> the sexuality with negative connotations.
>>
>
> The Devil is the randy goat, always ready to couple for the pleasure of
> the act, with no thought of church or state, no need for formal vows or
> licenses, or rules of any kind. He has no morality of any kind, and does
> not hesitate. His exultation is in the moment when the hymen is ruptured
> and the blood flows. That is his reason to exist, only that moment,
> repeated endlessly without variation. The Devil has no imagination at all,
> and needs none. He is his own fulfillment, his own justification, utterly
> selfish and unaware.
**But this card not only represents the 'act'...it also represents the
'consequences' in reality. That is the chain that binds the couple...and in
this card, it seems the most negative binding.
>> Tower-Cleaning? nervous breakdown.
>>
>> XVI = The Tower = Mars (the God of War and Destruction). The blasted
>> tower means fighting and war. It is all encompassing which is to say all
>> of that reading are at odds.
>>
>
> The name of this card is the Blasted Tower, or the Tower Struck by
> Lightning. It is not named the Tower. It is not a house, but a house in
> the act of falling to ruin. It is the Tower of Babel, the fall of the hope
> of mankind. The destruction comes from on high, an act of God, inevitable
> retribution for past accumulated errors. From on high those that were
> lifted up are cast back down to the earth.
**Just as it has identity with Babel, it is also associated with the
destruction of Babylon and I suppose you could advance theory for all lost
civilizations as the (possibly fabled) Atlantis, though no fighting is
indicated in some of these.
**That would be one descriptive of the 'Dark Night of Soul'...there are
others.
>> XIX The Sun = planetary attribution to the Sun but is some decks is
>> attributed to Pisces. It is the card of the morning after, the sun
>> coming out after the dark night. Usually a very positive card.
>>
>
> The light of day after a dark night of the soul. The return of clarity and
> faith, a resolution to the night fears that formerly vexed us. The
> werewolves have retreated back to their dens. The path can be walked with
> safety once again, and does not need to be watched. Warmth causes flowers
> to blood and the breeze to blow. The white horse is the beast of the Sun,
> just as the dogs were the beasts of the Moon. The children evident on the
> Marseilles trump represent renewal, the promise of the Star fulfilled in
> the world. The wall is order built from chaos.
**Agree.
>> XX = The Aeon = No assigned to any planetary or astrological attributes.
>> The beginning of a new journey.
>>
>> XXI = The Universe...the World and much more...the new World begins. The
>> end of the matter in question.
>
> The goddess of the World dances her endless dance of karma, a spiral dance
> through time and space. She stands on one foot, for she is undivided in
> her purpose. Everything is unfolding according to divine plan. The stars
> reel through the heavens, the sun and moon rise and set, the tides advance
> and retreat, winter comes and summer comes. Eternal change.
**The Universe is rightly paired with the Fool...that is the maening (I
think) of the blind.
Very enjoyable...thanks
KC
Al Smith
>> > should come here, and Strength should fall in the usual place of
>> > Temperance. The sexual union of the Lovers has its higher, spiritual
>> > aspect, where sex is sublimed into something more mysterious and subtle,
>> > an alchemical mingling of opposite energies. Take a look at what Crowley
>> > did with the Lovers and Temperance, and you will see why these two cards
>> > should come one after the other in the trump sequence.
>
> **Then you would destroy the sequencing of astrological assignment or change
> the assignments on the cards so that Temperance/Art became affiliated with
> the sign of Cancer? That doesn't work for me...could you please go further
> with your logic as I do find what you're saying very interesting.
>
> Upon doing a little checking instead firing off the top of my head I find
> that the Dali deck, (I don't currently have a Waite deck but think that Dali
> didn't depart from the Waite sequencing?), also places the Chariot at VII.
> As for the pairing...I always took the distance between the Lovers and Art
> to be as the distance between the Priestess and the Moon, etc.
>
The Chariot is almost always placed as VII, the eighth card in the
sequence of trumps. It just seems obvious to me that it is
incorrect, for a variety of reasons. The evil cards (if I may call
them that) clump together, but the Chariot, which is after all a
card of warfare and conquest and destruction, is oddly out of place
between the Lovers and Strength, two very positive and peaceful cards.
If we invert the Chariot and Temperance, what do we get? Temperance,
the blending of opposites, comes directly after the Lovers, the
union of opposite sexes. It receives the sign Cancer, which is a
water sign -- water is the medium of blending, and is shown on the
Temperance card in the form of two vessels connected by a single
stream of water. The sign of Cancer is two opposite swirls, like the
number 69 on its side. It resembles the arms of the figure on
Temperance in some decks -- the arms and the joined vessels form two
loops.
Does the sign Cancer really work for the war card, the Chariot? I
don't think it does. I know that writers on the Tarot claim it does,
but I've considered the matter and I believe they are mistaken,
having been misled by what they think they are expected to say about
it. There is nothing particularly warlike about a crab. They are
comical little sea creatures that you can step on.
On the other hand, the sign Sagittarius works very well for the
warlike Chariot. In ancient times war bows were used from racing
chariots during battles. The horse and the bow go very well with the
chariot. The crab? I don't think so.
By shifting the Chariot up to the place of Temperance, we see that
it is preceded by the card Death, and followed by the cards the
Devil and the Blasted Tower. This creates a nice grouping of evil
cards -- Death, the Chariot, the Devil, the Blasted Tower. It also
creates the sequence the Lovers, Temperance, Strength, the Hermit.
As I say, it is not the conventional view. You won't find it
expressed in too many places. However, this inversion of the places
of the Chariot and Temperance makes good sense to me.
-Al-
mary cain
>>> The Chariot is out of place in the sequence of trumps. The card
>>> Temperance
>>> > should come here, and Strength should fall in the usual place of
>>> > Temperance. The sexual union of the Lovers has its higher, spiritual
>>> > aspect, where sex is sublimed into something more mysterious and
>>> > subtle, an alchemical mingling of opposite energies. Take a look at
>>> > what Crowley did with the Lovers and Temperance, and you will see why
>>> > these two cards should come one after the other in the trump sequence.
>>
>> **Then you would destroy the sequencing of astrological assignment or
>> change the assignments on the cards so that Temperance/Art became
>> affiliated with the sign of Cancer? That doesn't work for me...could you
>> please go further with your logic as I do find what you're saying very
>> interesting.
>>
>> Upon doing a little checking instead firing off the top of my head I find
>> that the Dali deck, (I don't currently have a Waite deck but think that
>> Dali didn't depart from the Waite sequencing?), also places the Chariot
>> at VII. As for the pairing...I always took the distance between the
>> Lovers and Art to be as the distance between the Priestess and the Moon,
>> etc.
>>
>
> The Chariot is almost always placed as VII, the eighth card in the
> sequence of trumps. It just seems obvious to me that it is incorrect, for
> a variety of reasons.
***Ok, I don't know what if any difference this would make but for the Waite
deck and clones thereof...the Chariot is the 7th card in the sequence as the
Fool is sequenced between XX and XXI.
The natural pairing (which you also will find no text for so far as I know),
would pair the Chariot with Art so, if the rotation was meant to be a clue
(as most blinds turn out to be), then these two could transpose each other,
I suppose but I have no evidence of this.
The evil cards (if I may call
> them that) clump together, but the Chariot, which is after all a card of
> warfare and conquest and destruction, is oddly out of place between the
> Lovers and Strength, two very positive and peaceful cards.
***But, the Chariot is symbolic of the 'blood royal' also. When I say
mother's son this is because it is (essentially) the masculine lineage in
the house of the mother (astrologically speaking). If we want to get into
liberal Christian representations...it could be like Jesus as the liberator
of women!? Thus, authority under authority.
If it had not been for the rotation, it would be between the Lovers and Lust
(Strength). The card is not so much associated with warfare in the Thoth
deck and Dali has this to say - As the Chariot of the Sun, it is victorious
for its splendour in the shadows and the triumph of the superior over the
inferior. (and more). He does attribute it to Sagittarius which would
possibly be a blind (if one adheres to astrological sequencing and does not
allow for rotation).
>
> If we invert the Chariot and Temperance, what do we get? Temperance, the
> blending of opposites, comes directly after the Lovers, the union of
> opposite sexes.
***I had thought that part of the reason to distance the alternatives as
Lovers/Art or Priestess/Moon was to give an indication of the alchemical
time required for the processes. Or, in the case of the Moon, time for
cycles to manifest.
It receives the sign Cancer, which is a
> water sign -- water is the medium of blending, and is shown on the
> Temperance card in the form of two vessels connected by a single stream of
> water. The sign of Cancer is two opposite swirls, like the number 69 on
> its side. It resembles the arms of the figure on Temperance in some
> decks -- the arms and the joined vessels form two loops.
***But you then have the instant pairing of the Lovers (Gemini - Air) and
the now transposed Art (Cancer -Water). And the Chariot becomes Sagittarius
which, before the altercation was the exact astrological opposite (which is
also considered to be the best mate) to the Lovers (Gemini)? As with
Leo/Aquarius Pisces/Virgo, etc.
>
> Does the sign Cancer really work for the war card, the Chariot? I don't
> think it does. I know that writers on the Tarot claim it does, but I've
> considered the matter and I believe they are mistaken, having been misled
> by what they think they are expected to say about it. There is nothing
> particularly warlike about a crab. They are comical little sea creatures
> that you can step on.
***Such association as I find of the Chariot with war would be as the
Crusades, Templars, and so on. It isn't, from what I know a card of war per
se.
>
> On the other hand, the sign Sagittarius works very well for the warlike
> Chariot. In ancient times war bows were used from racing chariots during
> battles. The horse and the bow go very well with the chariot. The crab? I
> don't think so.
>
> By shifting the Chariot up to the place of Temperance, we see that it is
> preceded by the card Death, and followed by the cards the Devil and the
> Blasted Tower. This creates a nice grouping of evil cards -- Death, the
> Chariot, the Devil, the Blasted Tower. It also creates the sequence the
> Lovers, Temperance, Strength, the Hermit.
***One point to the sequencing of Art/Saggitarius seems to be that the card
(being of some alchemical import) comes after Death which is the radicle
(putrefaction also implied).
>
> As I say, it is not the conventional view. You won't find it expressed in
> too many places. However, this inversion of the places of the Chariot and
> Temperance makes good sense to me.
Indeed, it is not conventional and I hope my rebuttal is as stimulating as
your posts have been to me as I am enjoying the analysis.
> -Al-
KC
Al Smith
> Crusades, Templars, and so on. It isn't, from what I know a card of war per
> se.
I'll just comment on this remark. The trump the Chariot shows a war
chariot in which stands a warrior wearing armour. How can you say it
is not warlike? Which of the trumps is more warlike? Which other
trump shows a soldier in armour? In Waite's Tarot, the Death card is
somewhat martial, but Death is scarcely a soldier, and Waite's
designs depart significantly from the traditional Marseilles
designs, which are the touchstone of the Tarot. In the Marseilles
Tarot, only the Chariot is a card of war. The chariot is a mode of
conveyance that had only one purpose -- war. To say it is not
warlike is akin to saying that an M-I Abrams tank is not a warlike
vehicle.
-Al-
mary cain
**Your response is quite disappointing. I went looking for my S. Kaplan
book and couldn't find it but I looked up some information online.
This is a descriptive of the Tarot de Marseille: The picture is of a
crowned young man who stands in an elaborate chariot with one hand on his
side and the other holding a sceptre (various decks employ the 'sceptre' in
their representation). There is depiction of Sun/Moon and possibly
Sulpher/Mercury as symbolic of the dualism contained in the card.
The suggested divinatory meaning given is - concentration, willpower and
determination...the card stands for resolving conflicts within yourself and
finding the necessary balance to accomplish your ambition.
Besides the numerous astrological errors the switch would cause that you did
not address...I can find no text that says it is a card of war...please cite
text or provide links to text that supports your claim. From what source is
the comment you made concerning the Chariot in paragraph one of your
comment?
Also, the correspondences listed that I can only assume applied to the
Marseille deck give the attribution to Cancer.
From Thoth: He is throned in the chariot rather than conducting it, because
the whole system of progression is perfectly balanced. His only function is
to bear the Holy Grail.
In the divinatory meaning given in Thoth the only thing that would even come
close to war would be the 'lust of destruction' which is not the main
feature of the card.
I will have to take your word that chariots were only used for battle until
I can do some research on that as well.
KC
>
> -Al-
mary cain
Nope, as I thought, they were used for sporting events and as common
transportation...not just in battle.
KC
Nicole
>
> - Show quoted text -
Al,
The Chariot is definately linked to the astrological sign of Cancer,
you can trust that fact even if you can't see the significance.
Cancerians are naturally funny (Robin Williams, Ricky Gervais, Paul
Merton) they are also personable and motherly (Fern Britton),
ecclectic (Cindy Lauper and her dress sense). I oftern get this card
in family orientated questions and everyone who knows star signs knows
Cancerians are BIG on family.
One thing I've noticed about Cancerians is they have a pretty neatness
about them, a kind of rare, colourful but contained beauty-for
example, these following women are born under Cancer, feel free to
look them up on Google:
1) Cheryl Cole
2) Natalie Wood
3) Jane Russell
4) Pamela Anderson
5) Janet Leigh
They are also highly tenacious (often tuck their thumbs under their
fingers when relaxed) which comes in handy when clinging to those
reigns and they can be highly defensive (or just act tough):
1) Missy Elliot
2) Yul Brenner
3) Sylvester Stallone
Another thing I've noticed about Cancerians is they not only save
sentimental things (Chariot=safety,protection and control of
resources) but they have respect for history (The Chariot card is
retroactive and in readings can apply to the recent past or near
future) Also people born under Cancer have 'thick skulls' e.g Myra
Hindley, Meryl Streep
Nicole
> "Al Smith" <inva...@address.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Which is evident in it's meanings: Daily transport=Any type of
vehicle
Sporting events=Presenting the hero/team spirit
Al Smith
You know, sometimes Tarot "authorities" can't see what's right in
front of their faces, because they have become so used to accepting
the conventional wisdom. One of the reasons the Chariot -- which
shows a war vehicle with a warrior riding inside it -- is not looked
upon as a card of war is because it is out of place in the sequence
of the trumps. Once it is moved after Death, and just before the
Devil, its warlike aspect is more easily perceived.
Was it Jesus who said, "There are none so blind as those who will
not see?" Maybe it was somebody else. True, though. Think about the
trump. A war vehicle, the chariot, with a warrior riding in it,
dressed in armor. Gee, lets put our heads together and try to think
what that could possibly mean. Oh, I know ... war. Duh.
Crowley was merely accepting the convention view of this trump,
which is largely based on its location in the trump sequence, and
its attribution of the zodiac sign Cancer (which, as I indicated, I
believe to be incorrect for this trump). There is a view that it
represents victory and glory. Well, even if so, victory at what?
Glory in what? War, that's what.
-Al-
Al Smith
The throwing spear was used in sporting events. It's known as the
javelin. Does that mean it isn't a war weapon? Take a look at the
chariot. You have to ride it standing up. This makes it good as a
mobile platform from which you can launch weapons, and means that
you can jump down and back onto it quickly. It is not a good
vehicles for moving goods, or for traveling long distances. It is
good for warfare, and to some extent for hunting. Have a look at
this image, which shows how the chariot was used by the Egyptian
military:
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/chariot18.jpg
Naturally, anything that is used in warfare can be used for other
purposes. Chariots were used for official processions, to show off
the warrior nobility. They were used as mobile platforms for hunting
lions and other big game. But they were a weapon of war, first and
always.
-Al-
Nicole
> > "Al Smith" <inva...@address.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Al,
For goodness sake. Your argument is bankrupt. I'm not claiming to be a
tarot authority, but you said that you believe The Chariot to link
astrologically with Sagittarius NOT Cancer. I'm saying the evidence
for Cancer is MUCH stronger than the evidence for Sagittarius.
The Chariot is about one's career path, tough control over natural
resources, concentration and heroism, an emergency, long term
strategies, vision, fierce ambition, the ultimate goal, one's
professional 'mask', warfare as a means of protection and defence as
well as vehicles from mopeds to trains. As Mary said it also means
'Royal Blood' and since Cancer is rooted strongly in family life it
also means the dynamics within the family home and the mothers'
bloodline.
The reason that you think Sag fits Chariot better than Cancer is
because it is a mobile platform from which you can launch weapons? You
also claim the The Chariot IS a weapon in itself. This is not true,
The Chariot is a means of transport which is designed to mobilise the
hero who destroys the enemy, The Chariot itself is NOT a weapon, it
doesn't even protect the hero thats why he requires a large sheild.
You also claim that one can jump on and off of a Chariot but you are
either on a moving vehicle or you are off it.
Sagittarius fires a bow and arrow upwards, they represent higher
aspirations. Saying that a javelin can be fired from a moving Chariot
is neither here nor there.
mary cain
>>> > I'll just comment on this remark. The trump the Chariot shows a war
Ok Mr. Smith,
***To begin with, you failed to address the rebuttal of your original claim
that the Chariot was based on the Tarot de Marseille...which clearly
attributes the Chariot to Cancer rather than what you alluded to. It also
does not in the Marseille description connotate the Chariot or the
divinatory meaning to war.
You have yet to address the astrological concerns in the matter. Those
solar opposites I listed (Virgo/Pisces and Aquarius/Leo) were not just an
example of why Gemini/Sagittarius should be placed as they are...they also
related to the ages of mankind.
> You know, sometimes Tarot "authorities" can't see what's right in front of
> their faces, because they have become so used to accepting the
> conventional wisdom. One of the reasons the Chariot -- which shows a war
> vehicle with a warrior riding inside it -- is not looked upon as a card of
> war is because it is out of place in the sequence of the trumps.
***Well, we can deduce from that statement that it doesn't bother you that
absolutely nobody agrees with your take. The only one who even comes close,
that I have found, is Dali who attributes the Chariot to Sagittarius (but
even he does not change the position of the trump in the card sequence).
> Was it Jesus who said, "There are none so blind as those who will not
> see?" Maybe it was somebody else. True, though.
***Indeed!!!
Think about the
> trump. A war vehicle, the chariot, with a warrior riding in it, dressed in
> armor. Gee, lets put our heads together and try to think what that could
> possibly mean. Oh, I know ... war. Duh.
***The Chariot (according to what I read of the history last night) was
discarded as an engine of war long before it was deleted from usage. As an
engine of war it was utilized because horses were not strong enough to carry
a warrior into battle. Once the horses were bred for greater strength and
stamina, the chariot was less efficient than being on horseback. Take the
airplane - it is a very pronounced engine of war but that is far from the
sum total of it! As for armor...I seem to recall seeing the ones racing and
doing feats of expertise also wearing armor. In biblical times sometimes
the armor was the equivalent of the military dress uniform of today.
> Crowley was merely accepting the convention view of this trump, which is
> largely based on its location in the trump sequence, and its attribution
> of the zodiac sign Cancer (which, as I indicated, I believe to be
> incorrect for this trump).
***Crowley rightly identified the card with bloodline and (the house of the
mother) as I have previously stated. If you can't address the issues I have
put forward against your theory, it is a fair indication that your theory is
erroneous. I love a spirited debate but there is no meat on those bones
you're tossing around.
There is a view that it
> represents victory and glory. Well, even if so, victory at what? Glory in
> what? War, that's what.
***Victory in mastering the duality of the card the Mercury/Sulpher aspect.
It is also indicated by the Sun/Moon but that can lead to a lot of
additional data concerning the lineage of our Charioteer. It is the card of
mastery over circumstances such as gain personal victory.
There is at least one deck where the Charioteer is female?! In most
instances there is that sceptre which indicates more law or proclamation the
edicts of war.
I'll concede the match to you if you come up with something significant.
Deconstruction isn't a problem if you are getting rid of old weaknesses to
build a stronger system but I don't see what you have said so far as doing
that.
>
> -Al-
KC
mary cain
"mary cain" <maryc...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:dYh5k.8530$s77....@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Al Smith" <inv...@address.com> wrote in message
> news:ira5k.1674$L03.1519@edtnps92...
>>> "Al Smith" <inv...@address.com> wrote in message
>>> news:NU15k.1464$sg6.219@edtnps91...
proclamation the edicts of war.
>
KC
Al Smith
Ooooh Kay. No point in continuing this discussion since what you've
written above doesn't even make good sense. I can't think of
anything I could achieve, for either of us, by telling you, yet
again, why you are incorrect.
-Al-
Al Smith
You don't need to concede anything. I'm not looking for a "match"
and never was. It's not what I do. I put out ideas, and if anyone
wants to talk about them, I talk about them. When others contradict
me, as they often do, it causes me to think harder, and I learn things.
-Al-
mary cain
>> "Al Smith" <inv...@address.com> wrote in message
>> news:ira5k.1674$L03.1519@edtnps92...
>>>> >> "Al Smith" <inv...@address.com> wrote in message
>>>> >> news:NU15k.1464$sg6.219@edtnps91...
> You don't need to concede anything. I'm not looking for a "match" and
> never was. It's not what I do.
*When a person puts up a post and you counter their position, you have
entered into a dialog that matures into a debate. It is far more important
to me that 'we' be right than that I am right.
If we were discussing divinatory meanings exclusively, I would not have
challenged you as interpretations can vary greatly from one person to
another.
You, however, challenged the basic structure of the tarot and I asked you to
qualify your position. I did put forth an argument for my position and even
went and got back-up data to support my position. You seem to be of the
opinion that you can just disallow all the research that preceded you and
make the card be what you want it to be...fine, create your own deck and do
just that, but, when speaking of existing decks, have enough academic
integrity to do justice to the author(s).
I put out ideas, and if anyone
> wants to talk about them, I talk about them. When others contradict me, as
> they often do, it causes me to think harder, and I learn things.
*That is a very good attitude but you should only put out ideas in a
discussion forum that you are prepared to defend (or provide a disclaimer at
the outset).
You said, "In the Marseilles Tarot, only the Chariot is a card of war.." I
went and found a website dedicated to the Marseille Tarot decks and found
this not to be the case.
You said, "The Chariot is a mode of conveyance that had only one purpose --
war." I gave qualified counter-point to that as well.
You did say many thought provoking things in the course of the discussion.
I found your take on many aspects to be very interesting and enlightening.
>
> -Al-
KC
nagasiva
Al Smith <inv...@address.com>:
>>> > High Priestess-....
>The Priestess is the feminine aspect of religion -- its secret,
>inner aspect, its quiet strength, its wisdom, its silence.
>>> > Empress-....
>Both the Priestess and the Empress are pregnant. Their swollen
>bellies (which are obvious in the Marseilles cards) indicate
>something nurtured within that is about to come forth.
I think it is important to admit that whenever we begin to
talk about a thing being 'especially true or obvious' in
the Tarot de Marseilles that we pay attention to the actual
history of the cards and to admit that there are mundane
reasons for playing cards having these kinds of features.
while it may suffice for and even serve occult interests
to overlay descriptions of Tarots like the Marseilles
for inspiration and enjoyment, being realistic, and honest,
we must also explain that the artists of the deck were very
likely men, and the conventions of these notions as they
were presented within this playing card deck may have other
dimensions that do not really fit into an occult context.
are they really pregnant or do they have the paunch that is
conventional for priestesses and empresses accustomed as
they probably would be to luxury and a somewhat sedantary
existence and social role? if they are actually pregant,
is this because they are indicating "something nurtured
within that is about to come forth"? or is it more likely
that the men who painted them saw women as vessels for
their future progeny and sought to represent them in a
manner which was valuable to them (about to bear a son)?
I am of course saying nothing of the truly occult decks
which have come about in modern times in which these
figures may or may not have retained this pregnant
quality (pun intended), but i do enjoy debating the
what seems to me very badly supported notion that the
Tarot de Marseilles is more than a playing card deck
later turned into a cartomantic tool, complete with
an appended pedigree of ancient and accepted arcanitude.
it is easy and fun to take games and lend to them a
depth and significance that they never actually had,
project backwards upon them an august past, and thence
pretend (and put over on others) a romance serving what
may seem laudable ends. however, once one begins to
make pronouncements on the 'true order of trumps' we
begin a journey down a slippery slope which playing card
decks such as the TdM will never help us to negotiate.
for example:
>The Chariot is out of place in the sequence of trumps.
>The card Temperance should come here, and Strength
>should fall in the usual place of Temperance.
this is false unless we're talking about a specific
occult series (Golden Dawn). the Spanish tradition
doesn't have this series, nor does the Alliette
cartomantic deck, and they are not "wrong" due to this.
>Why is Fortitude a woman? Because true strength is
>spiritual, not physical.
in which case why is the Empress female? she is all
rounded venusian comfort and earthly indulgence.
>> XII = The Hanged Man....
>The most mysterious of all the Tarot cards. It is
>indeed a card of sacrifice, but the sacrifice is
>not voluntary. ....
formerly known as The Traitor.
>> *The Moon....
>The most evil of the trumps, there is nothing good
>about this card....
I'll try to come up with some things. I agree with you
that it has a very bad reputation, but i'm enough of a
lover of polarity (over dualism) to try to come up with
it and construct it if need be out of visualization.
--------------------------------------------
yronwode.com@nagasiva ----------------------
-- http://www.luckymojo.com/nagasiva.html --
-- http://www.yronwode.com/sivaworld.html --
--------------------------------------------
nagasiva
?:
>> Such association as I find of the Chariot with war would
>> be as the Crusades, Templars, and so on. It isn't, from
>> what I know a card of war per se.
sensible, that typically falls to Tower/War.
Al Smith <inv...@address.com>:
>I'll just comment on this remark. The trump the Chariot
>shows a war chariot in which stands a warrior wearing
>armour.
correct.
>How can you say it is not warlike?
it isn't that it isn't martial or war-related, but that
it isn't War per se. that's War/Tower.
>Which of the trumps is more warlike?
War/Tower
>Which other trump shows a soldier in armour?
varies with the deck, naturally. you're describing
the trumps too simplistically, as if there is only
one set in the universe.
>In Waite's Tarot, the Death card is somewhat martial,
>but Death is scarcely a soldier, and Waite's designs
>depart significantly from the traditional Marseilles
>designs, which are the touchstone of the Tarot....
they aren't. they are a Playing Card deck which was
used as a backdrop upon which to conceive a Tarot.
nagasiva
Joseph Littleshoes
>>
>>The most evil of the trumps, there is nothing good
>>about this card....
>
>
> I'll try to come up with some things. I agree with you
> that it has a very bad reputation, but i'm enough of a
> lover of polarity (over dualism) to try to come up with
> it and construct it if need be out of visualization.
>
*Chuckle*
Cut the borders off the Thoth deck and compare the 18th & 19th Trump,
there is a subtle symbolism i find particularly enchanting.
--
Joseph Littleshoes
"The two main political parties ruled alternately as if by tacit
agreement. Politically they were practically indistinguishable (one
perhaps a shade more liberal) but in both camps supporters were more
swayed by personalities than by issues. Both parties were heavily
dependent on the large industrial conglomerates. Corruption was
widespread, the conglomerates dictated economic policy, and with few
outstanding exceptions, politicians' reputations were low."
Nicole
>
> - Show quoted text -
Al,
I don't think you can really dispute what Mary Cain said about The
Chariot card, it was a fully comprehensive and insightful series of
posts that you should be gracious enough to learn from instead of
acting like it's a load of rot, that just makes you look disgruntled.
Marianna...@gmail.com
> hi Al!
>
> ?:
>
> >> Such association as I find of the Chariot with war would
> >> be as the Crusades, Templars, and so on. It isn't, from
> >> what I know a card of war per se.
The Charioteers of Delphi and MotyaThe Charioteers of Delphi and of
Motya. Michael Lahanas. Ηνίοχος των Δελφών και ... Reconstruction of
the Delphi Charioteer Sculpture, part that includes a ...
www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Arts/DelphiChar.htm - 29k - Cached - Similar
pages - Note this
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Arts/DelphiChar.htm
> sensible, that typically falls to Tower/War.
>
> Al Smith <inva...@address.com>:
>
> >I'll just comment on this remark. The trump the Chariot
> >shows a war chariot in which stands a warrior wearing
> >armour.
>
> correct.
>
> >How can you say it is not warlike?
It can be the beginnning of war but only with other cards that
show that he does not use his logic. Generally the charioteer
(=armatilatis, or eniochos, iniochos) uses his logic and not
his paranoia.
eniochos, iniochos= driver
enia, or inia= reins
The Charioteer(or the Emperor ) can be a war lord, or a war leader
with negative cards...
I think the ace of swords has the power to disturb some men,
even calm men and make them aggressive and mad with rage, crazy
who start taraches (disturbances, confusion) and wars, don't you?
> it isn't that it isn't martial or war-related, but that
> it isn't War per se. that's War/Tower.
> >Which of the trumps is more warlike?
> War/Tower
Tower= chaos, confusion...
King of Swords can be a war lord (or Knight of Swords can be a gang
leader) with negative cards.
or
the King of Wands can be war Lord or the knight of wands can be
a killer, a murderer with negative cards.
Wands and Swords can be murderous weapons,and wands people and Swords
people do not have calm disposition.
Al Smith
> went and found a website dedicated to the Marseille Tarot decks and found
> this not to be the case.
I believe I indicated that The Chariot was the only trump that was a
card of war in the Marseilles Tarot. The Knights are, of course,
warlike.
-Al-
Al Smith
>> >bellies (which are obvious in the Marseilles cards) indicate
>> >something nurtured within that is about to come forth.
>
> I think it is important to admit that whenever we begin to
> talk about a thing being 'especially true or obvious' in
> the Tarot de Marseilles that we pay attention to the actual
> history of the cards and to admit that there are mundane
> reasons for playing cards having these kinds of features.
>
> while it may suffice for and even serve occult interests
> to overlay descriptions of Tarots like the Marseilles
> for inspiration and enjoyment, being realistic, and honest,
> we must also explain that the artists of the deck were very
> likely men, and the conventions of these notions as they
> were presented within this playing card deck may have other
> dimensions that do not really fit into an occult context.
>
> are they really pregnant or do they have the paunch that is
> conventional for priestesses and empresses accustomed as
> they probably would be to luxury and a somewhat sedantary
> existence and social role? if they are actually pregant,
> is this because they are indicating "something nurtured
> within that is about to come forth"? or is it more likely
> that the men who painted them saw women as vessels for
> their future progeny and sought to represent them in a
> manner which was valuable to them (about to bear a son)?
The Priestess was originally the Female Pope, a reference to the
legend of Pope Joan. If you know her legend, you know that she was a
woman who fell in love with a monk, followed him to Rome to be with
him, disguising herself as a monk, quickly rose through the ranks of
the Church because of her intelligence and administrative skills,
and was crowned Pope. Just as she was receiving her papal crown in a
public square, her water broke and she began to give birth to her
child, engendered on her by her lover. Oops. Must have been an
embarrassing moment for all concerned. That's why I say the
Priestess in the Marseilles deck is obviously pregnant. She is the
Papess, the Female Pope.
The pregnancy of the Empress is less definite, although her belly
indicates strongly that she is with child. But consider the meaning
of the Empress -- she is the symbol of new life and new growth, of
the fertility of the earth. What better way to express her fertility
than to show her pregnant, which in my opinion, is what was done in
the Marseilles deck. Sure, you can argue against this, but why?
Doesn't it make sense for her to be pregnant?
-Al-
Al Smith
>
> I don't think you can really dispute what Mary Cain said about The
> Chariot card, it was a fully comprehensive and insightful series of
> posts that you should be gracious enough to learn from instead of
> acting like it's a load of rot, that just makes you look disgruntled.
I didn't see anything posted in contradiction to my comments on the
Chariot that made any sense to me. Sorry, that's the way it is. What
am I supposed to do, pretend that I was proven incorrect when I was
not? I stand by everything I wrote. I don't mind people disagreeing
with my points of view, but I'm not going to pretend that they made
any sense when they did not.
-Al-
mary cain
Yes, and I should drop it at this point with only the comment that (unless
in some other text than the one I read) the Tarot de Marseilles does not
call the Chariot an engine of war, directly, and it is also not indicated in
the divinatory meaning given for the card.
I have truly enjoyed the conversation and found even the parts I disagree
with thought provoking.
KC
>
> -Al-
Al Smith
>>>> > >> be as the Crusades, Templars, and so on. It isn't, from
>>>> > >> what I know a card of war per se.
>
> The Charioteers of Delphi and MotyaThe Charioteers of Delphi and of
> Motya. Michael Lahanas. Ηνίοχος των Δελφών και ... Reconstruction of
> the Delphi Charioteer Sculpture, part that includes a ...
> www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Arts/DelphiChar.htm - 29k - Cached - Similar
> pages - Note this
>
>
>
> http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Arts/DelphiChar.htm
>
>
The entire purpose for the creation of the chariot was warfare. This
is so obvious, I'm surprised I even needed to make the point with
these other posters. Maybe they don't understand what warfare was
like, when waged with arrows and spears. If they did, they would
understand the advantages of the chariot under certain common
conditions. It was used by the Celts, the ancient Greeks, the
ancient Egyptians, and many other cultures. When Julius Caesar first
invaded Albion (Britain) what did he find waiting for him? War
chariots. Sure, the chariot was used in triumphal processions at
Rome, and for hunting lions by the Pharaohs. Somebody, sometime, may
even have used a chariot to move a load of manure, for all I know
... but it was primarily, firstly, essentially, a weapon of war.
Bloody hell, I get tired of stating the obvious.
-Al-
mary cain
"Joseph Littleshoes" <jpst...@isp.com> wrote in message
news:4856242...@isp.com...
> nagasiva wrote:
>> hi Al!
>>
>> Al Smith <inv...@address.com>:
>>>>*The Moon....
>>>
>>>The most evil of the trumps, there is nothing good about this card....
>>
>>
>> I'll try to come up with some things. I agree with you
>> that it has a very bad reputation, but i'm enough of a
>> lover of polarity (over dualism) to try to come up with
>> it and construct it if need be out of visualization.
>>
>> yronwode
>
> *Chuckle*
>
> Cut the borders off the Thoth deck and compare the 18th & 19th Trump,
> there is a subtle symbolism i find particularly enchanting.
> --
**I'm looking but I don't see...could you please elaborate?
TIA
> Joseph Littleshoes
KC
mary cain
>> Al,
>>
>> I don't think you can really dispute what Mary Cain said about The
>> Chariot card, it was a fully comprehensive and insightful series of
>> posts that you should be gracious enough to learn from instead of
>> acting like it's a load of rot, that just makes you look disgruntled.
**That was a very nice compliment and I thank you very much, Nicole.
> I didn't see anything posted in contradiction to my comments on the
> Chariot that made any sense to me. Sorry, that's the way it is. What am I
> supposed to do, pretend that I was proven incorrect when I was not? I
> stand by everything I wrote. I don't mind people disagreeing with my
> points of view, but I'm not going to pretend that they made any sense when
> they did not.
>
**Isn't that like an 8 of swords? I guess we all see from our individual
perspectives and don't really see from the other's eyes. I, personally,
don't see how you can make that statement. I thought I had given a whole
lot of counter-point and now some others have added even more.
I love tenacity, I just don't see it as having a platform in this instance.
Your counter about the Priestess seems a lot more solid.
KC
> -Al-
Nicole
> >>>> Such association as I find of the Chariot with war would
> >>>> > >> be as the Crusades, Templars, and so on. It isn't, from
> >>>> > >> what I know a card of war per se.
>
> > The Charioteers of Delphi and MotyaThe Charioteers of Delphi and of
> > the Delphi Charioteer Sculpture, part that includes a ...
> > pages - Note this
>
> >http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Arts/DelphiChar.htm
>
> The entire purpose for the creation of the chariot was warfare. This
> is so obvious, I'm surprised I even needed to make the point with
> these other posters. Maybe they don't understand what warfare was
> like, when waged with arrows and spears. If they did, they would
> understand the advantages of the chariot under certain common
> conditions. It was used by the Celts, the ancient Greeks, the
> ancient Egyptians, and many other cultures. When Julius Caesar first
> invaded Albion (Britain) what did he find waiting for him? War
> chariots. Sure, the chariot was used in triumphal processions at
> Rome, and for hunting lions by the Pharaohs. Somebody, sometime, may
> even have used a chariot to move a load of manure, for all I know
> ... but it was primarily, firstly, essentially, a weapon of war.
> Bloody hell, I get tired of stating the obvious.
>
> -Al-
Al,
The fact that Chariots were used in war is not the point. You
repeatedly call the Chariot 'a weapon of war' it is not a weapon it is
a means of mobilization.
I think one theme you raised was the The Chariot could be better
ascribed to the astrological sign of Sagittarius rather than Cancer,
but myself and other people on this list have endeavored to explain
why Cancer is the right and proper corresponding sign. As far as I can
tell you're reasoning for attributing Sag to Chariot was simply
because the centaurion of the Sag glyph yielded a weapon (bow and
arrow).
The Chariot may well have been designed for war, necessity is after
all the mother of invention, but like Mary said any vehicle has the
benefits of making it's hero a moving target and transporting all
vital weapons BUT that same vehicle is used for much, much more than
warfare.
Nicole
> "Al Smith" <inva...@address.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
I would disagree with The Priestess being 'more pregnant' than The
Empress. The Priestess is ultra feminine but in an introverted, under
ripe way. Her feminine dominions are virgin and elderly lady. The
Empress however reminds me of Christina Aguilera as she is presently,
passionate and full bodied, proud and self-assured.
mary cain
<Marianna...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:63940556-9e52-49fb...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 16, 3:05 am, nagasiva <yronwode.com@nagasiva> wrote:
> hi Al!
>
> ?:
>
> >> Such association as I find of the Chariot with war would
> >> be as the Crusades, Templars, and so on. It isn't, from
> >> what I know a card of war per se.
The Charioteers of Delphi and MotyaThe Charioteers of Delphi and of
Motya. Michael Lahanas. Ηνίοχος των Δελφών και ... Reconstruction of
the Delphi Charioteer Sculpture, part that includes a ...
www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Arts/DelphiChar.htm - 29k - Cached - Similar
pages - Note this
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Arts/DelphiChar.htm
**Very nice links...Thank you very much.
KC
mary cain
"Nicole" <paper...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9079f5a0-a789-417f...@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
**I see your point and don't disagree but he did make a good point about the
Popess and then there is Joan of Arc (by some accounts) and even Mary,
mother of Jesus, to consider. There are other examples that don't come
readily to mind.
I would agree with you that the Empress is much more fertile or that
fertility is far more pronounced and a part of the over-all character.
I agree with your identity of the Priestess with the Nun (as represented in
history rather than just the current Catholic interpretation).
KC
Joseph Littleshoes
> "Al Smith" <inv...@address.com> wrote in message
> news:ira5k.1674$L03.1519@edtnps92...
>
>>>"Al Smith" <inv...@address.com> wrote in message
>>>news:NU15k.1464$sg6.219@edtnps91...
>
>
>>>>>I'll just comment on this remark. The trump the Chariot shows a war
>>>>>chariot in which stands a warrior wearing armour. How can you say it
>>>>>is not warlike? Which of the trumps is more warlike? Which other trump
>>>>>shows a soldier in armour?
Often the Emperor, and if you consider the etymological origins of the
word Emperor (Imperator) it often makes me think the Emperor is the C in
C and the Charioteer a member of the C in C's army.
In Waite's Tarot, the Death card is
>>>>>somewhat martial, but Death is scarcely a soldier, and Waite's designs
>>>>>depart significantly from the traditional Marseilles designs, which
>>>>>are the touchstone of the Tarot. In the Marseilles Tarot, only the
>>>>>Chariot is a card of war. The chariot is a mode of conveyance that had
>>>>>only one purpose -- war. To say it is not warlike is akin to saying
>>>>>that an M-I Abrams tank is not a warlike vehicle.
In the ancient world there were chariots that were the equivalent of
cars for the masses, there are in ąny cultures ceremonial chariots, the
Japanese emperor at one time had a whole room on wheels he could be
moved from one place to another in. Many ceremonial chariots are
thrones for deities as well as Kings and Generals.
>>>
>>>**Your response is quite disappointing. I went looking for my S. Kaplan
>>>book and couldn't find it but I looked up some information online.
>>>
>>>This is a descriptive of the Tarot de Marseille: The picture is of a
>>>crowned young man who stands in an elaborate chariot with one hand on his
>>>side and the other holding a sceptre (various decks employ the 'sceptre'
>>>in their representation). There is depiction of Sun/Moon and possibly
>>>Sulpher/Mercury as symbolic of the dualism contained in the card.
There is some vagueness as to whether the charioteer is the emperor or a
person of lessor rank.
>>>
>>>The suggested divinatory meaning given is - concentration, willpower and
>>>determination...the card stands for resolving conflicts within yourself
>>>and finding the necessary balance to accomplish your ambition.
>>>
>>>Besides the numerous astrological errors the switch would cause that you
>>>did not address...I can find no text that says it is a card of
>>>war...please cite text or provide links to text that supports your claim.
>>>From what source is the comment you made concerning the Chariot in
>>>paragraph one of your comment?
>>>
>>>Also, the correspondences listed that I can only assume applied to the
>>>Marseille deck give the attribution to Cancer.
>
>
> Ok Mr. Smith,
>
> ***To begin with, you failed to address the rebuttal of your original claim
> that the Chariot was based on the Tarot de Marseille...which clearly
> attributes the Chariot to Cancer rather than what you alluded to.
How does it do that?
It also
> does not in the Marseille description connotate the Chariot or the
> divinatory meaning to war.
Well the charioteer is usually in armor no matter how ceremonial.
One of the Viscontis but she always reminds me in her fancy clothes more
of a valley girl and her new Porsche daddy just bought her, rather than
Diana the Huntress.
In most
> instances there is that sceptre which indicates more law or proclamation the
> edicts of war.
>
> I'll concede the match to you if you come up with something significant.
> Deconstruction isn't a problem if you are getting rid of old weaknesses to
> build a stronger system but I don't see what you have said so far as doing
> that.
>
>>-Al-
>
>
> KC
>
>
Joseph Littleshoes
Just the knights? the kings, queens, emperors, empresses, pages, valets,
chevaliers & etc. are all member of a privileged, hierarchical court
establishment founded on mutual defense.
In one very real sense the Tarot is an elitist ruling class document,
propaganda to support the "natural order" as perceived by its creators.
And to this day perpetuates a few mediaeval errors, such as having 2
star cards, the sun is a star, and then there is the star card the
distinctions being based on mediaeval understanding of the cosmos
markedly different than a modern understanding.
The hanged man in a day when "to be hung for a sheep as a lamb" was much
more real then, and the importance of apotheosis or epiphany had a much
more solid hold on the consciousness of the elite then it really does
now a days.
IMO modern Tarot of the last 200 years or so has got even more
Appolonian and male dominant, hierarchical, top down, authority driven
than i think it was originally.
The mere use of the images as a game is more Bacchic than Appolonian.
And Waite was the worst imo for legitimizing a faux mediaeval
absolutism, dressing it up and making it seem nicer than it was, as if
perpetuating the old saying "the rich man in his castle, the poor man at
his gate, god made them high and low and ordered their estate."
Joseph Littleshoes
> "Al Smith" <inv...@address.com> wrote in message
> news:hqx5k.1844$L03.1285@edtnps92...
>
>>>You said, "In the Marseilles Tarot, only the Chariot is a card of war.."
>>>I went and found a website dedicated to the Marseille Tarot decks and
>>>found this not to be the case.
>>
>>
>>I believe I indicated that The Chariot was the only trump that was a card
>>of war in the Marseilles Tarot. The Knights are, of course, warlike.
>
>
> Yes, and I should drop it at this point with only the comment that (unless
> in some other text than the one I read) the Tarot de Marseilles does not
> call the Chariot an engine of war,
There is no text for the Marseilles, no text that was written by the
original Artists or authors of that deck, any more than there is for a
visconti or any of the early decks, the creators of those decks left no
texts regarding them that are known of in modern times.
How any one can look at the Marseilles chariot and not see a warrior is
beyond me, but there are some other suggestions concerning the shape of
the Marseilles chariot.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19694/19694-h/images/083.jpg
directly, and it is also not indicated in
> the divinatory meaning given for the card.
>
> I have truly enjoyed the conversation and found even the parts I disagree
> with thought provoking.
>
> KC
>
>>-Al-
>
>
>
mary cain
> mary cain wrote:
>
>> "Al Smith" <inv...@address.com> wrote in message
>> news:hqx5k.1844$L03.1285@edtnps92...
> There is no text for the Marseilles, no text that was written by the
> original Artists or authors of that deck, any more than there is for a
> visconti or any of the early decks, the creators of those decks left no
> texts regarding them that are known of in modern times.
*The earliest renditions I can find of the complete Tarot de Marseilles are
by Jacques Vieville - (1650) and by Jean Noblet (also 1650). Both these try
to maintain the earlier tradition but it does say that several cards were
changed to different positions within the deck than what they held in the
originals, The Chariot was one of the changed cards. Both decks come with
LWB's.
KC
mary cain
> mary cain wrote:
>
>> "Al Smith" <inv...@address.com> wrote in message
>> news:ira5k.1674$L03.1519@edtnps92...
>>
>>>>"Al Smith" <inv...@address.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:NU15k.1464$sg6.219@edtnps91...
>>
>>
>>>>>>I'll just comment on this remark. The trump the Chariot shows a war
>>>>>>chariot in which stands a warrior wearing armour. How can you say it
>>>>>>is not warlike? Which of the trumps is more warlike? Which other trump
>>>>>>shows a soldier in armour?
>
> Often the Emperor, and if you consider the etymological origins of the
> word Emperor (Imperator) it often makes me think the Emperor is the C in C
> and the Charioteer a member of the C in C's army.
*Without the astrological implications, that would be more readily apparent.
I don't know why Dali switched the card to Sagittarius but that could be a
clue to support Al's theory. I don't know if it was an error or based on
some data. If there was data, it might be tracable.
Personally, I see the Chariot as more an emanation of the Magus than as
authority under the Emperor. If it could be as you depict (at least so far
as Thoth is concerned) the Chariot would have to be related to the Emperor
as son or nephew, I would think. Something to give equal status (at the
very least) because of that Graal.
> In the ancient world there were chariots that were the equivalent of cars
> for the masses, there are in any cultures ceremonial chariots, the
> Japanese emperor at one time had a whole room on wheels he could be moved
> from one place to another in. Many ceremonial chariots are thrones for
> deities as well as Kings and Generals.
*It seems to me that a place to start would be to find out when chariots
were retired from military service and compare that to the dates when tarot
cards were first manufactured...that might be a blind alley, though.
>>>>This is a descriptive of the Tarot de Marseille: The picture is of a
>>>>crowned young man who stands in an elaborate chariot with one hand on
>>>>his side and the other holding a sceptre (various decks employ the
>>>>'sceptre' in their representation). There is depiction of Sun/Moon and
>>>>possibly Sulpher/Mercury as symbolic of the dualism contained in the
>>>>card.
>
> There is some vagueness as to whether the charioteer is the emperor or a
> person of lessor rank.
*Perhaps so in the older decks.
>> ***To begin with, you failed to address the rebuttal of your original
>> claim that the Chariot was based on the Tarot de Marseille...which
>> clearly attributes the Chariot to Cancer rather than what you alluded to.
>
> How does it do that?
*That would have to be one of the copies.
> It also
>> does not in the Marseille description connotate the Chariot or the
>> divinatory meaning to war.
>
> Well the charioteer is usually in armor no matter how ceremonial.
*Significant but not conclusive, imo.
>> There is at least one deck where the Charioteer is female?!
> One of the Viscontis but she always reminds me in her fancy clothes more
> of a valley girl and her new Porsche daddy just bought her, rather than
> Diana the Huntress.
*Lol, thanks for the additional data on that.
>
> --
> Joseph Littleshoes
KC
Al Smith
>
> Often the Emperor, and if you consider the etymological origins of the word Emperor (Imperator) it often makes me think the Emperor is the C in C and the Charioteer a member of the C in C's army.
Sure, emperors were sometimes warriors. Then again, sometimes they
just dressed up in armour on ceremonial occasions, for show. The
primary sense of the Emperor is a male ruler, a figure of authority.
In the Chariot you've got a warrior in a war engine. Maybe in some
versions of the trump the depiction is ceremonial, but its warlike
sense is not lost, only overlaid with other sense such as victory in
war, triumph after war, champion of war, spoils of war, and so on.
-Al-
Al Smith
>>
>>
>>
>> I believe I indicated that The Chariot was the only trump that was a card of war in the Marseilles Tarot. The Knights are, of course, warlike.
>>
>> -Al-
>
>
> Just the knights? the kings, queens, emperors, empresses, pages, valets, chevaliers & etc. are all member of a privileged, hierarchical court establishment founded on mutual defense.
The Knights are primarily warriors, whereas with the other court
cards, there are martial associations, but the figures are not
primarily warriors.
-Al-
Al Smith
> Empress. The Priestess is ultra feminine but in an introverted, under
> ripe way. Her feminine dominions are virgin and elderly lady. The
> Empress however reminds me of Christina Aguilera as she is presently,
> passionate and full bodied, proud and self-assured.
Wow. The Priestess -- Christina Aguilera. I'll have to wrap my mind
around that one. But I'll never be able to wash out the image.
-Al-
Al Smith
>>>>>> > >>>> Such association as I find of the Chariot with war would
>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> be as the Crusades, Templars, and so on. It isn't, from
>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> what I know a card of war per se.
>> >
>>> > > The Charioteers of Delphi and MotyaThe Charioteers of Delphi and of
You can use a tank to tow a float in the Macey's Christmas Parade,
so in that sense, I suppose you are correct.
-Al-