History of Chariots
mary cain
the tarot and here's what I found:
Dali did attribute the Chariot to Sagittarius but Dali changed the
astrological sequence of several cards and we have no way (so far as I know)
of figuring out why. I thought that perhaps the reassignment of the Chariot
in his deck could be indicative of a knowledge of rotation that could occur
in the natural pairing of the cards (ie. a blind) but after seeing what he
did in the overall...I can't hold that theory.
Chariots as engines of war were deleted in about 1000 BC but the first tarot
cards were not created until around mid-15th century. That does not negate
the possibility of them being engines of war in the tarot but is one more
factor against it. Since the earliest tarot cards (IIRC) were
representative of certain families of renoun...the logical conclusion would
be parades and displays of authority.
KC
SANTA SHAMAN HAS A TAROT GIFT FOR YOU
"And seeing the multitudes, Jesus went up into a mountain...he opened
his mouth and taught them, saying: For, lo, I tell thee truly, The body
and the heart and the mind Are as a chariot, and a horse, and a driver.
The chariot is the body, Forged in strength to do the will Of the
Heavenly Father And the Earthly Mother. The heart is the fiery steed,
Glorious & courageous, Who carries the chariot bravely, Whether the road
be smooth, Or whether stones and fallen tress Lie in its path. And the
driver is the mind, Holding the reigns of wisdom, Seeing from above what
lieth on the far horizon, Charting the course of hoofs & wheels.
Al Smith
I don't own the Dail deck. I saw it advertised when it came out, and
I've seen examples of the cards, but it was too expensive to buy. I
didn't know Dali attributed Sagittarius to the Chariot.
Chariots were being used as engines of war when Julius Caesar
invaded Great Britain, just before the time of Christ. I don't know
when they stopped being practical for warfare. Of course, it was
long before the first Tarot deck.
-Al-
mary cain
"Al Smith" <inv...@address.com> wrote in message
news:IzZ5k.2170$L03.156@edtnps92...
> I don't own the Dail deck. I saw it advertised when it came out, and I've
> seen examples of the cards, but it was too expensive to buy. I didn't know
> Dali attributed Sagittarius to the Chariot.
*Yep, the only reason I have one, especially at the time I received it, was
that it was a gift to me from multiple sources. Dali was still alive when I
got my deck and I think the price went up a bit immediately after his death.
Dali changes a bunch of the attributes like the Empress which he ascribes to
Earth?! I wish there was some data on his thought processes but there's
none that I know.
I woke up thinking about the beginning of this discussion, that you had, in
fact, provided a disclaimer, and I over-looked it. I owe you an apology for
that.
In the natural pairing (as I said before) the Chariot does pair with Art but
I have never seen any actual text to support the 'natural pairing'.
It never really made sense to me why Crowley transposed Libra with Leo other
than as a possible blind to let serious students know that a 'rotation
existed' within the system. He gives a detailed description of their
rotation and why but leaves the rest for the student to figure out, by-pass
or get tangled up in...all depends on your perspective.
When you get to the back of the book and he teaches one to pair cards in a
reading, that could be another clue of the possibility of natural pairing.
Add to that the fact that Waite (who was a student of the same mysteries)
created or maintained a blind by placing the Fool between XX and XXI...and
it might be telling the student that the over pair of the natural pairing is
Fool/World. The pairings take place like order grades so they pair as
Magus/Aeon and so on down the line.
In the natural pairing the Emperor pairs with the Star (Tzaddi is not the
star?). I don't think that is the full meaning of that passage but it might
stand to support what I've said.
Anyway, I'm out here on the same limb as you (lol) so if you or anyone can
shoot holes in my theory...what goes around comes around. I am screaming
about my disclaimer at the outset though instead of tossing it in quietly
so, maybe I'm a bigger chicken than you. >:-)
> Chariots were being used as engines of war when Julius Caesar invaded
> Great Britain, just before the time of Christ. I don't know when they
> stopped being practical for warfare. Of course, it was long before the
> first Tarot deck.
*Taking the conversation in a different direction here...you are familiar
with the order of planets and astrological signs, right? If so you are
aware that more modern decks are seeking to establish or restore the order
of them in the sequencing of tarot cards.
Your insight might be a guidepost to lead you to realize a more profound
aspect of the tarot, at the conclusion. I don't know if the astrological
data pre-existed and got lost so that it is being restored or if it has been
advancing the tarot from its original form (like what Crowley says about the
evolution of chess).
I personally have a problem with the Hebrew alphabet in numerous instances
(which may be just showing my ignorance because I am, admittedly, weak in
that area). And, I am inclined to think that the reason the project of
assigning the I-Ching got abandoned is the fact that it is only apparently
applicable in a couple of instances.
But then, I don't know if there is interest in what I'm typing and I don't
want to be an old wind bag so...that's all for now.
> -Al-
KC
mary cain
"SANTA SHAMAN HAS A TAROT GIFT FOR YOU" <gypsy...@webtv.net> wrote in
message news:12410-485...@storefull-3233.bay.webtv.net...
> http://www.scybolt.com/chariots_of_Fire_v2.mid
A very nice and inspiring insight, as always...
Thank you very much.
KC
Al Smith
All good stuff, and interesting to me, as are most discussions on
the esoteric structure of the Tarot.
Crowley's inspired document "Liber AL vel Legis" (usually known as
the "Book of the Law") dictated his transposition of the Hebrew
letter attributions to the trumps the Emperor and the Star. He
didn't like the idea of this change, but felt compelled to make it
due to the explicit statement in Liber AL: "[Tzaddi] is not the
Star." As far as Crowley was concerned, that work was not only
dictated by his guardian angel, Aiwass, but was actually composed by
the gods. He couldn't in conscience ignore this statement about the
Tarot. So what he did was make the change, and then rationalize it
in his own mind as best he could, to justify the change.
By way of balance, he returned Justice and Strength to their former
positions, before they were moved by Mathers. I'm not sure exactly
what his thinking was, or how he justified this change to himself,
since it makes no sense that I can see. Maybe he thought, changing
Tzaddi and He screws up the sequence of the Hebrew alphabet, so I
will change Lamed and Teth to create a second screw-up to balance
the other one.
-Al-
mary cain
> All good stuff, and interesting to me, as are most discussions on the
> esoteric structure of the Tarot.
*I'm really glad to hear that, especially since I'm getting a nagging
feeling that someone wants me to just shut up...lol
> Crowley's inspired document "Liber AL vel Legis" (usually known as the
> "Book of the Law") dictated his transposition of the Hebrew letter
> attributions to the trumps the Emperor and the Star. He didn't like the
> idea of this change, but felt compelled to make it due to the explicit
> statement in Liber AL: "[Tzaddi] is not the Star." As far as Crowley was
> concerned, that work was not only dictated by his guardian angel, Aiwass,
> but was actually composed by the gods. He couldn't in conscience ignore
> this statement about the Tarot. So what he did was make the change, and
> then rationalize it in his own mind as best he could, to justify the
> change.
*Yes, and I can't say that what I have interpreted it to mean is in any way
linked to the reality of the situation.
However, what he did neither conformed to the astrological order or the
Hebrew alphabet, when he was done...and Crowley was a stickler for details
at times. He did less damage to the astrological order than the structure
of the alphabet. The only thing he has out of place in the astrological
category is the rotation of Libra with Leo. If one can get their mind
around what he is saying in the visions, he states openly that the message
received told him he would not understand certain aspects, that one to come
after would discover the key.
Given that, it inclines me to believe that he really was in touch with
something outside himself...but that is just my personal take, I'm aware
that many others don't share that attitude.
I think I should study the plates if the order of the Hebrew alphabet is
restored to see what, if any, clarity comes from the exercise.
Also, it would be helpful if the order of planets would be a little more
precise and I'm very curious about Dali turning the Empress into Earth (that
would correspond, one would think, to the World/Universe card but for the
World he has El Mundo which seems an over lapping to me...I would wonder if
he was giving double emphasis to the world in the way Moon (and by some
measures) Sun is represented. Duality is not supposed to manifest until
below the abyss, right?
But then, I don't know how versed Dali was in Tarot since he made the deck
as a gift to his wife and I also don't know how scholarly she might have
been or how much input she might have had on card design. It just bugs me
that what could be a very progressive alteration is lost to lack of follow
through.
>
> By way of balance, he returned Justice and Strength to their former
> positions, before they were moved by Mathers. I'm not sure exactly what
> his thinking was, or how he justified this change to himself, since it
> makes no sense that I can see. Maybe he thought, changing Tzaddi and He
> screws up the sequence of the Hebrew alphabet, so I will change Lamed and
> Teth to create a second screw-up to balance the other one.
*I'm totally in the dark about the changes unless it's a clue/blind as I
have suggested. I had read that he only restored the old order rather than
creating the current ordering of the trumps. That would mean that something
Mather may have gotten right was reversed to the original error later on?!
I thought there were numerous instances of the Hebrew alphabet being taken
out of proper sequence when being applied to the trumps...will have to do
some more study on that.
>
> -Al-
KC
Al Smith
Years ago, I read that Dali was very old when he did the Tarot, and
that he was urged to create it by an occultist who had some
influence over him at the time. Whether this is factual, I can't
say. I haven't read anything to suggest that Dali himself knew much
about the occult. His artwork doesn't show any deep occult knowledge.
Mathers inverted the locations of Justice and Strength in the Golden
Dawn Tarot system, and switched their zodiac signs and Roman
numerals. In the table on page 278 of the "Book of Thoth," Crowley
shows Justice (Adjustment) and Strength (Lust) in their old
positions, with their old Roman numerals, but with the Hebrew
letters Mathers assigned them. This throws two of the letters out of
their normal positions in the Hebrew alphabet. Crowley also swapped
the Hebrew letters for the Emperor and the Star, without moving
these trumps, which throws these two letters out of their normal
positions.
The illustration on page 11 of the "Book of Thoth" shows that he
thought of these changes as balancing each other, but in that
illustration he's got the pair of Roman numerals and zodiac signs
for the Emperor and the Star inverted on the left, but only the
zodiac signs for Justice and Strength inverted on the right.
I've thought about Crowley's "Tzaddi is not the Star" quite a bit,
and I just can make it feel right in my mind. I see no need to
invert the Hebrew letter attributions for the Emperor and the Star.
Why shouldn't Tzaddi be the Star? I see no reason that it should not be.
Mathers inversion of Strength and Justice makes perfect sense. In
the Golden Dawn Tarot system, the trumps of the zodiac signs (trumps
assigned to the 12 Simple Hebrew letters) receive the zodiac signs
in their customary order beginning with Aries and ending with
Pisces. It is obvious that Libra matches the trump Justice, and Leo
matches the trump Strength, so the places of these trumps needed to
be swapped.
(It's equally obvious to me, by the way, that Temperance matches
Cancer and Sagittarius matches the Chariot.)
Crowley's change is not obviously necessary. Indeed, after thinking
about it for years, off and on, I don't think it is necessary in any
way. I believe the line in his "Book of the Law" that he based the
change on was false information from his guardian angel, Aiwass. Why
Aiwass would do such a thing, I can't even imagine.
Of course everyone is free to make the judgement themselves, but to
me, the one thing you can never change is the ordering of the Hebrew
letters. Those have been carved into stone, so to speak, for
thousands of years. It seems to me that the ordering of the trumps
must be made to fit the ordering of the Hebrew letters, and the
occult correspondences of the letters, which it does fairly well,
with only a few trouble spots.
Now, the Hebrew letters have elements, planets and zodiac signs
associated with them. The Hebrew letter associations of the three
active elements -- Fire, Water and Air -- are explicit in the
"Sepher Yetzirah" (Book of Formation). There's no dicking around,
they are clearly stated. The same is true for the Hebrew letter
associations for the twelve zodiac signs. They are explicit.
The same is not true for the Hebrew letter associations of the seven
planets. It is not clearly stated. We know that the planets are to
be placed on the seven Double Letters of the Hebrew alphabet, but
the order is not clear. This has been the area of the order of the
Tarot trumps that has been most open to playing around with.
When it comes to messing with the order of the Tarot trumps that
fall on the twelve Simple Letters, linked with the zodiac signs, it
is the trumps that must be swapped around, since the order of the
zodiac on the Hebrew alphabet is fixed and given in "Sepher
Yetzirah." Crowley didn't do that. He messed with the Hebrew
letters. That's a mistake, in my view.
-Al-
mary cain
>> "Al Smith" <inv...@address.com> wrote in message
>> news:I0k6k.71$yg7.61@edtnps82...
>>>> >> "Al Smith" <inv...@address.com> wrote in message
>>>> >> news:IzZ5k.2170$L03.156@edtnps92...
> Years ago, I read that Dali was very old when he did the Tarot, and that
> he was urged to create it by an occultist who had some influence over him
> at the time. Whether this is factual, I can't say. I haven't read anything
> to suggest that Dali himself knew much about the occult. His artwork
> doesn't show any deep occult knowledge.
*I don't know how long the deck existed prior to publication but Dali died
the year it was first released (1984) and was 80 years of age at the time.
There is another person accredited with co-producing the deck but I don't
know anything at all about the second party and what their contributions
were.
A discussion we had here long ago gave me the information that Dali
'assigned' the art work and only some of the cards were actually created by
him. I know his wife was interested in tarot but don't know how advanced
the interest was. The design of some of the cards would give one pause to
wonder as they seem to grasp some points and even advance them to a more
modern setting. Perhaps that is coincidence?
>
> Mathers inverted the locations of Justice and Strength in the Golden Dawn
> Tarot system, and switched their zodiac signs and Roman numerals. In the
> table on page 278 of the "Book of Thoth," Crowley shows Justice
> (Adjustment) and Strength (Lust) in their old positions, with their old
> Roman numerals, but with the Hebrew letters Mathers assigned them. This
> throws two of the letters out of their normal positions in the Hebrew
> alphabet. Crowley also swapped the Hebrew letters for the Emperor and the
> Star, without moving these trumps, which throws these two letters out of
> their normal positions.
*Ok, I can see that but the serpent would seem more applicable to Leo than
the ox goad?. The only way the Tzaddi thing makes sense to me is in the
theory I have advanced. I don't know if (assuming the natural pairing
theory is correct) Crowley was dancing all around it but never stumbled onto
it or what was happening there.
*Yes, the reason he gives for changing the Hebrew letters is so that the
Fool and Adjustment form the AL of his magical theory. Personally, I think
he undid a correction and that ego might have been the cause. In all I
think I counted four Hebrew letters that were out of place in his
ordering...maybe more?
I think many of the things Crowley took to be of worldly import in the BotL
were actually trying to help him with his personal development. For this
reason, primarily, I think he was in touch with something beyond himself.
He was also told in several ways that he would not know the meaning of
certain things and that no expected source would figure it out.
> The illustration on page 11 of the "Book of Thoth" shows that he thought
> of these changes as balancing each other, but in that illustration he's
> got the pair of Roman numerals and zodiac signs for the Emperor and the
> Star inverted on the left, but only the zodiac signs for Justice and
> Strength inverted on the right.
*The explanation given on page 11 does not satisfy me. It does, to my
thinking, confirm his secret chiefs (to some degree) but for reasons other
than the ones he gives. Unless he expected his students to learn what he
was detailing with the loops and then return their cards to the original
order.
>
> I've thought about Crowley's "Tzaddi is not the Star" quite a bit, and I
> just can make it feel right in my mind. I see no need to invert the Hebrew
> letter attributions for the Emperor and the Star. Why shouldn't Tzaddi be
> the Star? I see no reason that it should not be.
*Well, you know what I think about it but, other than that, I agree with
you.
>
> Mathers inversion of Strength and Justice makes perfect sense. In the
> Golden Dawn Tarot system, the trumps of the zodiac signs (trumps assigned
> to the 12 Simple Hebrew letters) receive the zodiac signs in their
> customary order beginning with Aries and ending with Pisces. It is obvious
> that Libra matches the trump Justice, and Leo matches the trump Strength,
> so the places of these trumps needed to be swapped.
*Yes, I agree. This is why I think it was a blind and a clue to something
greater...like the end of the book where it says, "The Book of the Law is
Written and Concealed...Aum. Ha."
>
> (It's equally obvious to me, by the way, that Temperance matches Cancer
> and Sagittarius matches the Chariot.)
*Has it ever been assigned that way? Dali assigns the Chariot to
Sagittarius but leaves it in position VII and to further cloud the issue he
has Temperance assigned to Aquarius. In fact, his whole system is confusing
but curious. I thought the masculine/feminine of the cards further
expressed their duality plus other features. I still don't see it that way
but I can see that there is thought given to why you think the way you do.
>
> Crowley's change is not obviously necessary. Indeed, after thinking about
> it for years, off and on, I don't think it is necessary in any way. I
> believe the line in his "Book of the Law" that he based the change on was
> false information from his guardian angel, Aiwass. Why Aiwass would do
> such a thing, I can't even imagine.
*Unless Awiss was trying to convey the pairings (which seem quite obvious to
me).
>
> Of course everyone is free to make the judgement themselves, but to me,
> the one thing you can never change is the ordering of the Hebrew letters.
> Those have been carved into stone, so to speak, for thousands of years. It
> seems to me that the ordering of the trumps must be made to fit the
> ordering of the Hebrew letters, and the occult correspondences of the
> letters, which it does fairly well, with only a few trouble spots.
*As I said, I am, admittedly weak, in translation of the Hebrew alphabet but
I have wondered if it even belongs with the tarot or has been forced much as
Crowley tried to do with the I-Ching. I'd love to see some who know more
about it than me give a dissertation on why and how the letters fit the
trumps.
>
> Now, the Hebrew letters have elements, planets and zodiac signs associated
> with them. The Hebrew letter associations of the three active elements --
> Fire, Water and Air -- are explicit in the "Sepher Yetzirah" (Book of
> Formation). There's no dicking around, they are clearly stated. The same
> is true for the Hebrew letter associations for the twelve zodiac signs.
> They are explicit.
*Ok, this is something I didn't know and would love more detail on. Will
try to look up some stuff to see what I come up with.
>
> The same is not true for the Hebrew letter associations of the seven
> planets. It is not clearly stated. We know that the planets are to be
> placed on the seven Double Letters of the Hebrew alphabet, but the order
> is not clear. This has been the area of the order of the Tarot trumps that
> has been most open to playing around with.
*You seem to run into different ordering of the planets in other systems
also...one of the things that made me curious about Dali assigning the
Empress to Earth is that I had seen, long ago, a new classification of the
planets that put Earth in the system. The old order excluded it, IIRC.
I have seen it be Sun then Moon and at other times Sun/Mercury/Moon and a
lot of the systems predate the discovery of the outer planets.
>
> When it comes to messing with the order of the Tarot trumps that fall on
> the twelve Simple Letters, linked with the zodiac signs, it is the trumps
> that must be swapped around, since the order of the zodiac on the Hebrew
> alphabet is fixed and given in "Sepher Yetzirah." Crowley didn't do that.
> He messed with the Hebrew letters. That's a mistake, in my view.
*I agree that he seems to have messed up the astrological order and I
pondered it a long time before I decided he must have known he was
misleading some. I think he knew those who really studied it would figure
out the blind. There are a number of things I have encountered over the
years that I thought he advanced beyond later and didn't go back and update
because he felt that the serious student would encounter the error and have
to make their own decision about how to deal with it.
>
> -Al-
KC
Al Smith
> the ox goad?. The only way the Tzaddi thing makes sense to me is in the
> theory I have advanced. I don't know if (assuming the natural pairing
> theory is correct) Crowley was dancing all around it but never stumbled onto
> it or what was happening there.
The Tarot trumps break down into obvious groups. You have the Fool,
which to some extent is opposite in nature to the Magician. Then
there is the group of Popess-Pope and Empress-Emperor, the rulers
secular and sacred. Then comes the Lovers (Charity), Temperance
(Temperance), Strength (Fortitude), the Hermit (Prudence). The Wheel
of Fortune is action of chance, and Justice is rule of law. The
Hanged Man seems to stand alone and act as a kind of pivot or hinge
for the series. Then comes the chaotic trumps, Death, the Chariot
(in my own sequence), the Devil and the Blasted Tower. Then the
celestial or spiritual cards of Star, Moon, Sun. Finally the
contrasting pair of Judgement and the World.
Some authorities have speculated that the trumps may be folded in
the middle to overlap and create significant pairs. The Egyptian
hall of the Tarot trumps in Paul Christian's "History and Practice
of Magic" is based on this speculation (it is, needless to say,
complete fantasy from a physical standpoint -- no such hall exists
or ever did exist). This folding would mirror the Kabbalistic
practice of folding the Hebrew alphabet in various ways to produce
significant pairs of letters. I don't believe anyone has
investigated the Tarot trumps in depth based on these Hebrew
alphabet foldings, other than the first, which simply folds the
alphabet into two. It might produce some interesting insights.
>> Now, the Hebrew letters have elements, planets and zodiac signs associated
>> > with them. The Hebrew letter associations of the three active elements --
>> > Fire, Water and Air -- are explicit in the "Sepher Yetzirah" (Book of
>> > Formation). There's no dicking around, they are clearly stated. The same
>> > is true for the Hebrew letter associations for the twelve zodiac signs.
>> > They are explicit.
>
> *Ok, this is something I didn't know and would love more detail on. Will
> try to look up some stuff to see what I come up with.
This is something that, for no reason I can see, was not made clear
in many books about the Tarot that dealt with the Golden Dawn
system. All the Golden Dawn correspondences for the trumps and the
letters of the Hebrew alphabet are based on "Sepher Yetzirah." Once
we know this, we can understand what the GD correspondences are all
about.
Mathers claimed to have cracked the placement of the seven planets
on the seven Double Letters of the Hebrew alphabet in "Sepher
Yetzirah." I don't think that he did, and I have my own assignment,
which is simply to place the planets on these seven Double Letters
in their Ptolemaic order, beginning with the Moon. This requires
some changes in the trump order that will be controversial.
On the other hand, I don't see the inversion of the Chariot and
Temperance as very radical at all. It seems so very right to me, it
is self-evident. Whether others begin to adopt it or not, we'll just
have to wait and see.
> *You seem to run into different ordering of the planets in other systems
> also...one of the things that made me curious about Dali assigning the
> Empress to Earth is that I had seen, long ago, a new classification of the
> planets that put Earth in the system. The old order excluded it, IIRC.
Well, you know in the Golden Dawn system the trump the World has two
correspondences, the usual Saturn, and also the element Earth. Both
appear on Crowley's table, p. 278 "Book of Thoth," but they are not
Crowley's assignments, they are Mathers'. The assignment of
elemental Earth to the trump the World was motivated by a feeling
that all four elements should be represented in the trumps. However,
elemental Earth is not the same as the other three elements, but
distinctly different. It is inert, they are active. Its exclusion
from the Hebrew letters in "Sepher Yetzirah" was not accidental.
-Al-
mary cain
> The Tarot trumps break down into obvious groups. You have the Fool, which
> to some extent is opposite in nature to the Magician. Then there is the
> group of Popess-Pope and Empress-Emperor, the rulers secular and sacred.
> Then comes the Lovers (Charity), Temperance (Temperance), Strength
> (Fortitude), the Hermit (Prudence). The Wheel of Fortune is action of
> chance, and Justice is rule of law. The Hanged Man seems to stand alone
> and act as a kind of pivot or hinge for the series. Then comes the chaotic
> trumps, Death, the Chariot (in my own sequence), the Devil and the Blasted
> Tower. Then the celestial or spiritual cards of Star, Moon, Sun. Finally
> the contrasting pair of Judgement and the World.
*An interesting take on the majors. Don't know if I'd say contrasting for
Judgment/World (Universe). Only if you would refer to end and beginning as
contrasting...I would see them more as flowing one into the other.
Around the astrological wheel the flow is Fire - Disk - Air - Earth. If we
apply that to Tarot then your system would make Temperance a water sign and
turn the Chariot into a fire sign. Additionally, you would have transposed
the male/female attributions as well. I can see how an argument could be
made for the switch but I couldn't go with it, if for no other reason than
that I know the former positioning and see a certain symmetry in it...and
the fact that you would then have the Chariot as the polar opposite to the
Lovers.
>
> Some authorities have speculated that the trumps may be folded in the
> middle to overlap and create significant pairs. The Egyptian hall of the
> Tarot trumps in Paul Christian's "History and Practice of Magic" is based
> on this speculation (it is, needless to say, complete fantasy from a
> physical standpoint -- no such hall exists or ever did exist). This
> folding would mirror the Kabbalistic practice of folding the Hebrew
> alphabet in various ways to produce significant pairs of letters. I don't
> believe anyone has investigated the Tarot trumps in depth based on these
> Hebrew alphabet foldings, other than the first, which simply folds the
> alphabet into two. It might produce some interesting insights.
>
*Yes, I think Crowley teaching the reading style of pairing is that you do
get very interesting results by various pairings.
>>> Now, the Hebrew letters have elements, planets and zodiac signs
>>> associated
>>> > with them. The Hebrew letter associations of the three active
>>> > elements -- Fire, Water and Air -- are explicit in the "Sepher
>>> > Yetzirah" (Book of Formation). There's no dicking around, they are
>>> > clearly stated. The same is true for the Hebrew letter associations
>>> > for the twelve zodiac signs. They are explicit.
*I'll look that up and see what I can learn from it...thanks.
*I had totally forgotten about the Earth representation on the Universe
card, which should have stuck with a name like the World (shakes head).
That would actually make sense to me as I have long contemplated that the
Magus is doing double duty as both Sun and Mercury at the outset...the way
Sun and Mercury will frequently be found in the Sun Sign of a Natal Chart.
I am also wondering why Crowley and Waite deviated from the astrological
order with the pips. I understand that Waite assigns Fire to Swords and Air
to Wands?
I understand a bit of why Crowley wanted to put Fire next to Water (as the
pure elements) but it would actually make more sense to have the Disk
secondary if considering the ordering of Eld which he ascribes to Tarot.
But, he'd have a lot of reclassifying to do with the Court cards.
>
> -Al-
KC
mary cain
Oh...I remember about the order of the suits. They correspond to the four
quadrants - Aries/Fire - Cancer/Water - Libra/Air - Capricorn/Earth. So, no
need to go into that after all.
KC
Al Smith
I don't know what you mean by "Disk" here. If you refer to the
elements, it would be Fire, Water, Air, Earth, regarding the
elemental associations of the Cardinal signs, and moving
counterclockwise: Aries, Cancer, Libra, Capricorn.
> I am also wondering why Crowley and Waite deviated from the astrological
> order with the pips. I understand that Waite assigns Fire to Swords and Air
> to Wands?
>
If you examine Waite's Tarot deck, particularly the court cards, you
will see that the suit of Wands is associated with Fire, the suit of
Cups with Water, the suit of Swords with Air, and the suit of
Pentacles with Earth. I've glanced through Waite's "Pictorial Key,"
and don't fine any explicit statement of the elemental associations
-- perhaps I missed it. He does make an assignment of the suits to
the suits of traditional playing cards, and in my opinion does so
incorrectly, from a symbolic standpoint. Maybe that was the source
for the confusion?
There are a number of Tarot decks that link Swords to Fire and Wands
to Air, as I found when I Googled. It is an unfortunate association.
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/changed-suit-element-associations.shtml
You'll notice that the Waite Tarot is not on this list.
> I understand a bit of why Crowley wanted to put Fire next to Water (as the
> pure elements) but it would actually make more sense to have the Disk
> secondary if considering the ordering of Eld which he ascribes to Tarot.
> But, he'd have a lot of reclassifying to do with the Court cards.
>> >
Crowley put Fire next to Water because this is their order on the
letters of the Tetragrammaton: I (fire), H (water), V (air), H
(earth). Fire is the Father, Water the Mother, Air the Son and Earth
the Daughter.
The astrological assignments to the number cards is quite logical in
the Golden Dawn system. It proceeds around the circle of the zodiac
by elemental association: the suit of Wands receives ten-degree
increments of the Fire signs; Cups receive the Water signs; Swords
receive the Air signs; Pentacles or Disks receive the Earth signs.
The Aces are omitted from this series so that this assignment by 10
degree chunks of the zodiac will work out numerically -- 36 number
cards X 10 degrees each = 360 degrees. The Aces are assigned
quadrants around the celestial pole instead. See the illustration in
Regardie's Golden Dawn, p. 606 (6th Edition). The assignment begins
in Leo, rather than in Aries, which tends to confuse those
unfamiliar with it. The Twos are placed on the beginnings of the
Cardinal signs. See the table, pp. 600-1, which clearly lays out the
arrangement.
My own feeling is that this assignment is somewhat artificial. On
the other hand, it works out surprisingly well, when it comes to
assigning meanings to the cards, with only a few strained places. It
was transmitted to Mathers by the Secret Chiefs.
-Al-
Al Smith
Too late. I already went into it, before reading this post. :-)
-Al-
mary cain
Well, I thank you very much even if it was too late. :)
> -Al-
mary cain
>> Around the astrological wheel the flow is Fire - Disk - Air - Earth.
>
>
> I don't know what you mean by "Disk" here. If you refer to the elements,
> it would be Fire, Water, Air, Earth, regarding the elemental associations
> of the Cardinal signs, and moving counterclockwise: Aries, Cancer, Libra,
> Capricorn.
*Just my brain not functioning properly...I pretty much knew what I meant
but confusion is prolific sometimes.
>
>
>> I am also wondering why Crowley and Waite deviated from the astrological
>> order with the pips. I understand that Waite assigns Fire to Swords and
>> Air to Wands?
>>
>
> If you examine Waite's Tarot deck, particularly the court cards, you will
> see that the suit of Wands is associated with Fire, the suit of Cups with
> Water, the suit of Swords with Air, and the suit of Pentacles with Earth.
> I've glanced through Waite's "Pictorial Key," and don't fine any explicit
> statement of the elemental associations -- perhaps I missed it. He does
> make an assignment of the suits to the suits of traditional playing cards,
> and in my opinion does so incorrectly, from a symbolic standpoint. Maybe
> that was the source for the confusion?
*Ok, I was basing that on conversations we have had here in the past (we not
meaning us specifically). I gave my Pictorial Key away years ago...sorry
for the confusion. The part about playing cards does seem to jog a memory
but I couldn't say for sure.
>
> There are a number of Tarot decks that link Swords to Fire and Wands to
> Air, as I found when I Googled. It is an unfortunate association.
>
> http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/changed-suit-element-associations.shtml
>
> You'll notice that the Waite Tarot is not on this list.
*Links are almost always appreciated and this one is no exception. :-)
> Crowley put Fire next to Water because this is their order on the letters
> of the Tetragrammaton: I (fire), H (water), V (air), H (earth). Fire is
> the Father, Water the Mother, Air the Son and Earth the Daughter.
*Yes, I remembered at some God awful hour of the morning but, I hadn't
recalled it all so thanks for the additional information.
>
> The astrological assignments to the number cards is quite logical in the
> Golden Dawn system. It proceeds around the circle of the zodiac by
> elemental association: the suit of Wands receives ten-degree increments of
> the Fire signs; Cups receive the Water signs; Swords receive the Air
> signs; Pentacles or Disks receive the Earth signs. The Aces are omitted
> from this series so that this assignment by 10 degree chunks of the zodiac
> will work out numerically -- 36 number cards X 10 degrees each = 360
> degrees. The Aces are assigned quadrants around the celestial pole
> instead.
*That is with the Princesses, right? I'll have to see if I can look the
Regardie reference up because all I have is volume one (which I've never
really delved into).
See the illustration in
> Regardie's Golden Dawn, p. 606 (6th Edition). The assignment begins in
> Leo, rather than in Aries, which tends to confuse those unfamiliar with
> it. The Twos are placed on the beginnings of the Cardinal signs. See the
> table, pp. 600-1, which clearly lays out the arrangement.
*Is the reason for beginning in Leo because it is the solar opposite to
Aquarius or is another reason given?
>
> My own feeling is that this assignment is somewhat artificial. On the
> other hand, it works out surprisingly well, when it comes to assigning
> meanings to the cards, with only a few strained places. It was transmitted
> to Mathers by the Secret Chiefs.
*I'm not familiar enough with it to make educated comment at this point but
if it was because of the solar opposition, that would make sense to me.
There's a type of astrology (and I'm not remembering the details at present)
that begins with the sign of Aquarius (just as the year begins with
January). I don't know where to start looking for this, though.
I did some searching for Sepher Yetzirah last night and found a lot of it
familiar due to working with Crowley material over the years but there is
additional information that is helping to pull it together for me. Sure
would have been nice to have google back when I was first starting to study
all these things!
That means that if the pairing is correct as I detailed, it's almost a given
that Crowley knew and I probably arrived by bold road signs. The fact that
it works like the order grades is just a symmetrical coincidence.
I still need a lot of research into the Hebrew alphabet in this context to
see how well it works in my mind. It could be that astrology forms a link
between the alphabet and the tarot without actually combining the two, but
that seems less likely than before.
Anyway, thanks for the information and I have truly enjoyed the
conversation.
>
> -Al-
KC
Al Smith
>> > Golden Dawn system. It proceeds around the circle of the zodiac by
>> > elemental association: the suit of Wands receives ten-degree increments of
>> > the Fire signs; Cups receive the Water signs; Swords receive the Air
>> > signs; Pentacles or Disks receive the Earth signs. The Aces are omitted
>> > from this series so that this assignment by 10 degree chunks of the zodiac
>> > will work out numerically -- 36 number cards X 10 degrees each = 360
>> > degrees. The Aces are assigned quadrants around the celestial pole
>> > instead.
>
> *That is with the Princesses, right? I'll have to see if I can look the
> Regardie reference up because all I have is volume one (which I've never
> really delved into).
>
> See the illustration in
>> > Regardie's Golden Dawn, p. 606 (6th Edition). The assignment begins in
>> > Leo, rather than in Aries, which tends to confuse those unfamiliar with
>> > it. The Twos are placed on the beginnings of the Cardinal signs. See the
>> > table, pp. 600-1, which clearly lays out the arrangement.
>
> *Is the reason for beginning in Leo because it is the solar opposite to
> Aquarius or is another reason given?
>> >
I believe the beginning of the circle of the Tarot cards on the
zodiac with a particular degree of Leo was inspired information. I'd
have to look it up to refresh my memory. The beginning degree is
located by a particular star - Regulus, I think. [does a quick
Google] Take a look at this document:
http://www.arcane-archive.org/occultism/divination/tarot/astronomic-tarot-1.php
Frater S.M.R.D. is Mathers.
-Al-
mary cain
*Thank you very much for the link...I get it now, Big Lion...lol
I guess if the Aquarius thing would be applicable at all it would be another
coincidence. I should have know about the Leo thing because (IIRC) Crowley
claimed a chart other than his actual natal chart to have Leo ascending?
I did a wiki on Regulus and will study the whole thing more as I want to
read the whole section of the link you provided...
Thanks again,
>
> -Al-
KC
Marianna...@gmail.com
Did you see the movie chain reaction (Keanu Charles Reeves) ?
mary cain
<Marianna...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7b05b4df-e348-45c6...@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
I think so...long time ago. The one where he's a scientist, right? Were
you referencing something in particular or the movie in general?
Al Smith
Hmm, I think I did. A few years ago, right? Let me check {Google,
Google ...] Yup, I saw the movie. I'd give it about a 7 out of 10,
but only because I like Keanu Reeves. Does this have something to do
with the Tarot?
-Al-
Marianna...@gmail.com
Gee, I thought you were talking about the inert and active (how to
create
inertia or energy - what creates inertia or what creates energy).
Marianna...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
I guess you, Zmithara, know nothing about the Laws of Physics...
ShamanWamanKikiMil Merely a Strand!
thought you were talking about the inert and active (how to create
inertia or energy - what creates inertia or what creates energy).
Santa Shaman says, "A body in motion tends to remain in motion while a
body at rest tends to remain at rest. Ninth grade science (1955).
Or, lack of activity, esp. as applied to a uterus during childbirth when
its contractions have decreased or stopped. (Medical Definition) Pope
Joan, Empress or¿
Al Smith
The basics, Marianna, the basics. For example, you can't split water
into its component parts without putting in more energy than you get
out, making it a losing game for most applications. Cold fusion is a
different matter, and might just be practical. That relies on
nuclear energy, which if liberated would be significant. But I don't
see what this has to do with the Tarot.
-Al-
Marianna...@gmail.com
Ooooooo, you have a good Greek teacher :-)
> For example, you can't split water
> into its component parts without putting in more energy than you get
> out, making it a losing game for most applications. Cold fusion is a
> different matter, and might just be practical. That relies on
> nuclear energy, which if liberated would be significant. But I don't
> see what this has to do with the Tarot.
>
Imagine the man as micrograph (miniature) of the Universe...
> -Al-- Hide quoted text -