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From: CJ Buyers <susuha...@hotmail.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.talk.royalty
Subject: Re: Turkey bids farewell to grandson of Ottoman Sultan Abdulhamit II
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 15:54:34 -0700 (PDT)
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On Jul 30, 3:22=A0am, "Dag T. Hoelseth" <dh...@nospam.online.no> wrote:
> "CJ Buyers" <susuha...@hotmail.co.uk> skrev i meldingnews:4ace7f8f-9c4f-4=
e0c-aec0-f43735d72...@o10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 29, 8:33 am, "Dag T. Hoelseth" <dh...@nospam.online.no> wrote:
> > > "Louis Epstein" <l...@main.put.com> skrev i
> > > meldingnews:i2q98i$jlb$1@reader1.panix.com...
>
> > > > CJ Buyers <susuha...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > : An interesting report on the death of Prince Osman Nami Bey Effen=
di,
> > > > : with pictures of the funeral.
> > > > :
> > > > :http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=3D61428
> > > > :
> > > > : The serving Prime Minister of Turkey not only attended but also
> > > > acted
> > > > : as the principal pall-barer. Most of the Turkish press reports us=
ed
> > > > : the full Imperial titles of the members of the family when report=
ing
> > > > : on the events.
>
> > > > Is Prince Dundar,or Prince Osman Bayazid,treated as the head of the
> > > > family?
>
> > >http://www.ottomanfamily.comclaimsto be the official website of the
> > > Ottoman family. It has not been updated for a while, but the subpage
> > >http://www.ottomanfamily.com/index.php?page=3D2suggests that Osman
> > > Bayezid
> > > Efendi is the head (Ertugrul Osman died in 2009, Burhaneddin Cem Efen=
di
> > > in
> > > 2008). Mr. Buyers might have more details.
>
> > Indeed, H.I.H. Prince Osman Bayezid Effendi (b. at Paris, 23rd
> > November 1924), younger son of Rear-Admiral H.I.H. Prince Ibrahim
> > Tawfik Effendi, by his fourth wife, Khadija Shadiya Khanum Effendi. He
> > settled in New York after his parents divorced and his mother
> > remarried an American, surnamed Daus. As far as I know, he is
> > unmarried.
>
> > By the way Dag, may I ask why you do not use their titles when writing
> > about the Ottoman family, when even the Turkish press and government
> > do?
>
> No particular reason. But obviously I was in a hurry when I read your
> message and didn't really reflect over the fact that you had referred to =
the
> late Osman Nami Bey Efendi as a Prince. Then I followed the link you had
> provided and based a short blog article on it.
>
> In connection with writing the blog article, I didn't return to your
> original message, but consulted the official websitehttp://www.ottomanfam=
ily.org=A0and saw the various titles (in Turkish) and
> was then unsure what would be the best translation/transliteration into
> English (Sehzade, Sultansehzade, Sultan, Hanimsultan). Maybe you could be=
 as
> kind as to explain the various titles? Then I would be happy to correct m=
y
> blog article as well as to use the correct titles in later discussions an=
d
> blog articles.
>
> It seems that also cognatic descendants of a sultan were titled (and that
> both Sultanzade and Sehzade can be translated into Prince)?

Yes, Prince is best. Sehzade is Turkish for Shahzada, or "son of a
King". This term appears before the name and can be translated as
Prince and Imperial Highness. At the end of their names they are
styled Effendi.

Imperial Princesses have the word "Sultan" at the end of the name,
though the more correct rendering in English would be Sultana. It is
usual to accord them the style of Imperial Highness and Princess
before their names when writing in English. Their sons are also
Princes and are styled Sultanzade in Turkish, i.e. Sultanzada or "son
of a Sultana". This term appears before the name and can be translated
as Prince and plain Highness. At the end of their names they are
styled Bey Effendi.

Hanimsultan, is the Turkish for Khanum Sultana. This title is also
used at the end of the name and applies to both the daughters of an
Imperial Princess and the official wives of an Imperial Prince. It is
usual to accord them the style of Highness and Princess before their
names when writing in English.

> By the way, do you know when your Ottoman page at your Royal Ark will be
> available?

As for when Turkey will be back on the Royal Ark, I am afraid that I
have been terribly lazy about rechecking all the date conversions from
Hijra to AD. All I can say is that it will be back sometime, but I
cannot be certain when.

> A minor trifle, maybe, but you write "Effendi" with double f instead of
> "Efendi" (single f). Any particular reason for this? When I visited the T=
omb
> (and cemetery) of Sultan Mahmut II in istanbul in March this year, I noti=
ced
> that most of the relevant graves, if not all, were engraved with Efendi a=
nd
> not Effendi.

My website is published in English, not Turkish, so I use the usual
English spelling of Effendi. Turkish spelling results in complete
mispronunciation of almost everything when read in English.