A rant: Vulcan brain wipe
Joe Thompson
Can I get a bofh.org.uk address off of this?
So yesterday I go to brain-wipe my machine[0]. Format c:, reinstall
(unfortunately not Linux). And the fun begins...
First off after Win95 was done installing and rebooting, it didn't
recognize my CD-ROM. So during the configuration phase, when it asked for
the CD... Apparently all this affected was my sound card and my monitor,
no great loss there.
Hey, I have an IntelliMouse with a wheel, I'll head over to microsoft.com
for the drivers...
"You must have at least version 1.1 of the IntelliPoint drivers installed
to use this driver upgrade..."
Hunt down our network admin and beg for disks to be copied in a network
directory. Disks copied... but as a single directory, not two disk
directories. Beg for correction. Repeat with two disk directories named
"Disk 1" and "Disk 2" which really should have been "disk1" and "disk2"
but I caught that.
Now I go to install the Hercules graphics drivers. Fine, install is OK,
but when I go to restart Windows in 1600 x 1200 @ 16-bit, she no restart.
Sigh, reset button, wait, select normal boot, switch to 1152 x whatever @
16-bit.
Reinstall newsreader, clench teeth as it decides its working directory is
the location of the alias I launched it from and thus creates a brand-new
newsrc file...
Go to reinstall Netscape Communicator 4.04... what?!? It's no longer
available in the English version on ftp.netscape.com. Any other version,
any other language, but no 4.04 English. Track down on Alta Vista whilst
making violent remarks...
Scream at Outlook for requiring me to delete and re-add the "Personal
Folders" service to change the .pst file it points to...
But I didn't lose any mail, and I'm saving the CH joystick config for
tomorrow or Monday. -- Joe
[0] It blue-screened twice in an hour. All I run is Outlook[1], two
copies of Eudora, a Notepad window, Netscape, and occasionally
NewsXpress. Sometimes I launch a game too.
[1] Yeah, I know, but I have no choice really.
--
Joe Thompson | By sending commercial | Tech support is a fine
O- He-Who-Grinds- | e-mail, you agree to | art which, once mastered,
the-Unworthy | pay US$1000.00/item. | ensures loss of sanity.
http://kensey.home.mindspring.com/ - Electrify the gene pool's fence!
Gary Barnes
On Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:36:44 -0400, Joe Thompson <ab...@orion-com.com> wrote:
:Can I get a bofh.org.uk address off of this?
:
:So yesterday I go to brain-wipe my machine[0]. Format c:, reinstall
:First off after Win95 was done installing and rebooting, it didn't
:recognize my CD-ROM.
[snip]
:Go to reinstall Netscape Communicator 4.04... what?!? It's no longer
:available in the English version on ftp.netscape.com. Any other version,
:any other language, but no 4.04 English. Track down on Alta Vista whilst
:making violent remarks...
:
:Scream at Outlook for requiring me to delete and re-add the "Personal
:Folders" service to change the .pst file it points to...
Uh, you want a bofh.org.uk address because you wasted several hours
installing Win95, Netscape and Outlook on your PC?
Am I missing something here?
Gaz
--
/\./\
( - - ) g...@ntli.net (Gary Barnes)
\ " /
~~~
Chris King
In article <slrn6oaj6...@wolfskin.fbh.private.cableol.net>, Gary
Barnes <g...@ntli.net> writes
>On Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:36:44 -0400, Joe Thompson <ab...@orion-com.com> wrote:
>:Can I get a bofh.org.uk address off of this?
>
>Uh, you want a bofh.org.uk address because you wasted several hours
>installing Win95, Netscape and Outlook on your PC?
>
>Am I missing something here?
I suspect that Joe's request was an attempt at humour.
A true bofh.org.uk candidate would have microwaved the Win95 CD [1],
smashed the intellimouse with a hammer [3] and reinstalled Linux.
Chris
[1] Using someone else's oven [2]
[2] Hey, it's not my magnetron !
[3] I doubt you'd need a very big hammer though.
--
Chris King
ch...@csking.demon.co.uk
http://www.csking.demon.co.uk
Joe Thompson
In article <slrn6oaj6...@wolfskin.fbh.private.cableol.net>,
g...@ntli.net (Gary Barnes) wrote:
> Uh, you want a bofh.org.uk address because you wasted several hours
> installing Win95, Netscape and Outlook on your PC?
>
> Am I missing something here?
a) Yes. As I noted, it wasn't my choice. I'm working on figuring out a
way I can run Linux without anyone complaining. But for the moment, the
product I support runs under Win95, so...
b) As another poster pointed out, I was half-jesting. It would be a nice
thing to have, but I'd prefer to qualify based on one of my rants about my
cow-orkers perhaps. -- Joe
Joe Thompson
In article <Tyg0+AAK...@csking.demon.co.uk>, Chris King
<ch...@csking.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> A true bofh.org.uk candidate would have microwaved the Win95 CD [1],
> smashed the intellimouse with a hammer [3] and reinstalled Linux.
Hey, those Intellimeece are useful. I now have what counts as a
three-button mouse. It's one of the very few products I've seen from M$
that I really liked and I'm absolutely sure they stole it from somewhere
else. -- Joe
Bram Smits
Chris King <ch...@csking.demon.co.uk> writes:
>smashed the intellimouse with a hammer [3] and reinstalled Linux.
>[3] I doubt you'd need a very big hammer though.
While you may not, strictly speaking, _need_ a very big hammer, using a very
big hammer regardless of that fact is more fun.
v__
<"___\____ Bram 'mouser' Smits.
--
I think, therefore I think I am
Paul Martin
In article <abuse-16069...@user-37kba8b.dialup.mindspring.com>,
ab...@orion-com.com (Joe Thompson) writes:
> In article <B1ACAE99...@hearsay.demon.co.uk>,
> slavins.at.hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) wrote:
>> Are you aware that the following are anagrams of 'vulcan brain wipe' ?
>>
>> unwrap evil cabin
>
> Does a Win95 CD sleeve count as a "cabin"? I guess the disk does live in it.
unwrap evil in .CAB
If you've ever messed with Win95 you'll know what a .CAB is[95].
[95] It's MS's own install archive format. <autoLART>
--
Paul Martin <p...@zetnet.net>
Tom ONeil
On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:42:59 -0400, ab...@orion-com.com (Joe Thompson)
wrote:
>In article <B1ACAE99...@hearsay.demon.co.uk>,
>slavins.at.hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) wrote:
>
>> In article <abuse-13069...@user-37kbabq.dialup.mindspring.com>,
>> ab...@orion-com.com (Joe Thompson) wrote:
>>
>
>
>
>BTW: I found fips today. fips is good. fips is my friend. fips will
>help me reclaim that wasted drive space that's just begging for an OS...
>-- Joe
ISTR "fdisk" would reclaim it...
>
>[0] STR!
>[1] "Why don't you/Come up to the lab/And see what's on the slab?"[0]
See chicken. What did I win?
Don't dream it, be it.
>--
> Joe Thompson | By sending commercial | Tech support is a fine
> O- He-Who-Grinds- | e-mail, you agree to | art which, once mastered,
> the-Unworthy | pay US$1000.00/item. | ensures loss of sanity.
>http://kensey.home.mindspring.com/ - Electrify the gene pool's fence!
Tom
Tom ONeil
t_oneil(at)earthling.net
Relax. It's only zeroes and ones.
Joe Thompson
> unwrap evil in .CAB
>
> If you've ever messed with Win95 you'll know what a .CAB is[95].
>
> [95] It's MS's own install archive format. <autoLART>
AKA "We're going to use this format for all installers. because then we
can 'compress' 1.8 megs into a 1.44-MB floppy even thought we know that
our floppy disks always have at least one bad one and that's if you're
damn lucky."
A friend says MS buys cheap disks that cause the faults, but that doesn't
adequately explain why disks 11-13 of a standard Win95 upgrade install
fail quite often and the rest are usually OK. -- Joe
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
Thu, 18 Jun 1998 07:35:58 GMT:
J <n...@spam.net> spake:
>On Thu, 18 Jun 1998 03:44:15 GMT, t_o...@earthling.net (Tom ONeil)
>wrote:
>>>[1] "Why don't you/Come up to the lab/And see what's on the slab?"[0]
> I always thought that this line was 'Dammit, Janet, I wanna
>screwwwwww!!!
I've always heard "Dammit, Janet, I love shoes!", which you sing while
waving your feet in the air.
But dammit, don't show the chicken in the message!
-- <a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
Lorens Kockum
In alt.sysadmin.recovery, Joe Thompson <ab...@orion-com.com> wrote:
>
>[0] STR!
>[1] "Why don't you/Come up to the lab/And see what's on the slab?"[0]
TRHPS is still running in Paris. Four times a week, IIRC. Has
been so for at least as long as I have been living in Paris. If
you don't live in Paris, and this was UI to you, my sympathy.
--
#include <std_disclaim.h> Lorens Kockum
Ian Pitcher
ab...@orion-com.com (Joe Thompson) wrote:
>In article <Tyg0+AAK...@csking.demon.co.uk>, Chris King
><ch...@csking.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> A true bofh.org.uk candidate would have microwaved the Win95 CD [1],
>> smashed the intellimouse with a hammer [3] and reinstalled Linux.
>
>Hey, those Intellimeece are useful. I now have what counts as a
>three-button mouse. It's one of the very few products I've seen from M$
>that I really liked and I'm absolutely sure they stole it from somewhere
>else. -- Joe
Useful or not, they've provided me with one of the best giggles I've
had in the last month or so...
(Product Ad in the current Simply Computers[0] Catalogue)
"Microsoft Wheel Mouse
<snip merits-of-mouse blurb until the final bullet point>
- Get all the reliability you expect from Microsoft"
Sometimes I wonder...
Ian
[0] A PC mail order company here in the UK
Malcolm Ray
On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:56:25 GMT, Ian Pitcher <i.c.p...@ncl.acuk> wrote:
>Useful or not, they've provided me with one of the best giggles I've
>had in the last month or so...
>
>(Product Ad in the current Simply Computers[0] Catalogue)
>
>"Microsoft Wheel Mouse
>
><snip merits-of-mouse blurb until the final bullet point>
>
>- Get all the reliability you expect from Microsoft"
>
>Sometimes I wonder...
>
>Ian
And then there's their poster campaign:
"At the heart of every great business innovation is someone who's a
monumental pain in the neck. Be that pain"
Yes, you too can cause pain in various parts of the anatomy of your
support staff by whining every time your crapware blows instead of
sucks, by stirring your registry with blunt instruments, by mailing
obese proprietary attachments to people who have no use for them and
then sneering that it's "the way of the future", by mandating Exchange
and Outlook, and by spending half the day tinkering with your GUI
instead of working. We've all met that pain. Nice to know that
Microsoft think of themselves as the grit in the oyster; I guess
they never were very good with bivalves[1].
[1] Spot the thread merge
--
Malcolm Ray University of London Computer Centre
Acid Rainbow
On Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:36:44 -0400, ab...@orion-com.com (Joe Thompson) did
violence to a keyboard and sent:
<snip>
>First off after Win95 was done installing and rebooting, it didn't
>recognize my CD-ROM. So during the configuration phase, when it asked for
>the CD... Apparently all this affected was my sound card and my monitor,
>no great loss there.
<more snippage>
</Lurk mode>
This happens to be one of my favorite examples of Lose95 brain-deadness,
'nother words that in safe mode it doesn't load the CD-ROM drivers. So
there you are with the %&$#@ing thing yelling for stuff that's on the
CD-ROM that it can't read now although it was perfectly happy with it a few
minutes ago...
<Lurk>
**********************************************************************
*Lissajous patterns and windmills and don't ask about the connection.*
* Acid Rainbow: Semi-professional windmill-tilter. *
**********************************************************************
Jeff Vinocur
On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:56:25 GMT, Ian Pitcher
<i.c.p...@ncl.acuk> wrote:
:(Product Ad in the current Simply Computers[0] Catalogue)
:"Microsoft Wheel Mouse
A microsoft magazine arrived at my house (address obviously
leaked/stolen from somewhere) today. One of the "features"
of Windows 98 is something called Universal Serial Bus or
something like that. This new USB thing allows you to
daisychain input devices of various sorts. Sounds
remarkably like Apple's ADB (y'know, the one that's been out
for well over a decade).
All hardware sucks. But Microsoft can't even suck on its
own, it has to steal^H^H^H^H^Hbe inspired by others.
--
Jeff Vinocur
chi...@ix.netcom.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/3768/
Arthur Hagen
In article <35908516...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, chi...@ix.netcom.com writes:
> A microsoft magazine arrived at my house (address obviously
> leaked/stolen from somewhere) today. One of the "features"
> of Windows 98 is something called Universal Serial Bus or
> something like that. This new USB thing allows you to
> daisychain input devices of various sorts. Sounds
> remarkably like Apple's ADB (y'know, the one that's been out
> for well over a decade).
Uhm, you mean like SCSI, just slower, and without the chicken?
--
*Art
John C. Randolph
Ian Pitcher may or may not have said:
-[snip]
-> "Microsoft Wheel Mouse
->
-> <snip merits-of-mouse blurb until the final bullet point>
->
-> - Get all the reliability you expect from Microsoft"
->
-> Sometimes I wonder...
Well, let's give credit where credit is due: MicroSquish has always made
*excellent* hardware. If they'd quit their incompetent efforts at software
development, focus on their technical strengths, I'd give up my personal
comittment to a MicroSquish-free life.
-jcr
Bron Gondwana
'twas said by Arthur Hagen of a...@flying.broomstick.com in alt.sysadmin.recovery that:
>> daisychain input devices of various sorts. Sounds
>> remarkably like Apple's ADB (y'know, the one that's been out
>> for well over a decade).
>
>Uhm, you mean like SCSI, just slower, and without the chicken?
Which would explain why it's all that Apple's new triangle has, no floppy,
zip etc. No SCSI either, all they have is USB. Ouch.
--
// Bronster, who played with his first not-in-a-store G3 today, it was
OK.. pity I was trouble shooting it for a not-properly plugged in ethernet
cable.
Joe Zeff
sam...@GEMUNG.clark.AUS.net.spam (Acid Rainbow) wrote:
> This happens to be one of my favorite examples of Lose95 brain-deadness,
>'nother words that in safe mode it doesn't load the CD-ROM drivers. So
>there you are with the %&$#@ing thing yelling for stuff that's on the
>CD-ROM that it can't read now although it was perfectly happy with it a few
>minutes ago...
There is a way to avoid this if you plan ahead. Alas, telling how
would be UI.
--
------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Zeff Earthlink Network
jo...@earthlink.net Senior Support Joat
(800) 395-8410
Computers work in weird and marvelous ways, their
wonders to avoid performing.
------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Zeff
Chris King
In article <35908516...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, Jeff Vinocur
<chi...@ix.netcom.com> writes
>A microsoft magazine arrived at my house (address obviously
>leaked/stolen from somewhere) today. One of the "features"
>of Windows 98 is something called Universal Serial Bus or
>something like that. This new USB thing allows you to
>remarkably like Apple's ADB (y'know, the one that's been out
>for well over a decade).
USB has been around for a while, and M$ supported it in the last release
of Win95 [1]. If that's useful information, you must have found a cheap
supplier of USB peripherals - over in .uk, the backplanes are cheap (if
not supplied with the motherboard), the cables are cheap, but the actual
peripherals are pretty expensive (assuming you can find any at all)
>All hardware sucks. But Microsoft can't even suck on its
>own, it has to steal^H^H^H^H^Hbe inspired by others.
You expect *originality* from M$ ? Excuse me, I'm about to C | N > K...
Chris
ric
Arthur Hagen <a...@flying.broomstick.com> wrote:
> In article <35908516...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, chi...@ix.netcom.com writes:
>
> > A microsoft magazine arrived at my house (address obviously
> > leaked/stolen from somewhere) today. One of the "features"
> > of Windows 98 is something called Universal Serial Bus or
> > something like that. This new USB thing allows you to
> > daisychain input devices of various sorts. Sounds
> > remarkably like Apple's ADB (y'know, the one that's been out
> > for well over a decade).
>
> Uhm, you mean like SCSI, just slower, and without the chicken?
I think the chicken may still be needed, remember Gates' experience with
a W98 late beta and a USB scanner?
--
'ric
Paul Tomblin
In a previous article, jcr.r...@this.phrase.idiom.com said:
>Well, let's give credit where credit is due: MicroSquish has always made
>*excellent* hardware. If they'd quit their incompetent efforts at software
Tell that to the people who've had to replace their "Microsoft Natural"
keyboards a few times a year because the connector/cable junction frayed.
Back when I was reading the typing injuries list, everybody was complaining
about these things.
--
Paul Tomblin, ptom...@xcski.com.
"It's just a cardboard model. Fake security"
"Jeez, that's a first for Microsoft"
- User Friendly
Siggi B
On 24 Jun 1998 10:35:16 GMT, jcr.r...@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C.
Randolph) wrote:
> Ian Pitcher may or may not have said:
>-[snip]
>-> "Microsoft Wheel Mouse
>->
>-> <snip merits-of-mouse blurb until the final bullet point>
>->
>-> - Get all the reliability you expect from Microsoft"
>->
>-> Sometimes I wonder...
>
>Well, let's give credit where credit is due: MicroSquish has always made
>*excellent* hardware. If they'd quit their incompetent efforts at software
>development, focus on their technical strengths, I'd give up my personal
>comittment to a MicroSquish-free life.
>
>-jcr
>
ONLY if someone else made the drivers for any h/w that micro$loth
make.
SIggi the Underpaid.
--
reality.sys corrupt! Reboot Universe? (Y,N,Q)
au com wr at siggi
figure it out.
jf...@acm.dot.org
Paul Tomblin <ptom...@canoe.xcski.com> wrote:
> In a previous article, jcr.r...@this.phrase.idiom.com said:
> >*excellent* hardware. If they'd quit their incompetent efforts at software
> Tell that to the people who've had to replace their "Microsoft Natural"
> keyboards a few times a year because the connector/cable junction frayed.
> Back when I was reading the typing injuries list, everybody was complaining
> about these things.
That was easily fixed, in my case...simply splice on the cable from the
keyboard I'd acquired the MS Natural keyboard to replace. Worked like a charm
ever since, and now the cable is almost 10 feet long. :->
JF
--
Justin Ferguson "...By the looks of it, this guy couldn't reproduce
jferg AT (acm.org himself if he had an installation wizard."
OR usgs.gov - Andreas Skau in the Scary Devil Monastery
OR umr.edu) Speaking not for ACM, USGS, UMR, CC or anyone but myself.
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
Wed, 24 Jun 1998 04:51:59 GMT:
Jeff Vinocur <chi...@ix.netcom.com> spake:
>A microsoft magazine arrived at my house (address obviously
>leaked/stolen from somewhere) today. One of the "features"
>of Windows 98 is something called Universal Serial Bus or
>something like that. This new USB thing allows you to
>daisychain input devices of various sorts. Sounds
>remarkably like Apple's ADB (y'know, the one that's been out
>for well over a decade).
Feh! The Atari 8-bit had that in 1977 with the SIO bus - disk drive, tape
drive, printer, multi-serial port box, everything hooked on one daisy chain,
with no terminator. The other standard device ports on it were the four (on
the 400/800) or two (on the later ones) two-way joystick/whatever electronic
gadget you want to hook up ports. IIRC it was 19,200bps (may have been
slower), but that was obscenely fast compared to the competition (the 300bps
C64 tape & disk drives, f'rinstance)...
I rather hope that isn't useful information.
Richard Letts
ric wrote:
> I think the idea with monitors is to allow smart control of the monitor
> configuration, and power swivel etc, rather than actually handling a
> video signal.
oooooh! imagine to possabilities on a NT machine hacked across the network,
or a virus that shuffled the display whilst the luser tried to type stuff
in....
RjL
John C. Randolph
Siggi B may or may not have said:
-> On 24 Jun 1998 10:35:16 GMT, jcr.r...@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C.
-> Randolph) wrote:
->
-> > Ian Pitcher may or may not have said:
-> >-[snip]
-> >-> "Microsoft Wheel Mouse
-> >->
-> >-> <snip merits-of-mouse blurb until the final bullet point>
-> >->
-> >-> - Get all the reliability you expect from Microsoft"
-> >->
-> >-> Sometimes I wonder...
-> >Well, let's give credit where credit is due: MicroSquish has always made
-> >*excellent* hardware. If they'd quit their incompetent efforts at
software
-> >development, focus on their technical strengths, I'd give up my personal
-> >comittment to a MicroSquish-free life.
-> >
-> >-jcr
-> >
->
-> ONLY if someone else made the drivers for any h/w that micro$loth
-> make.
But of course: Drivers are *software*!
A Microsquish mouse is bloody awful under Windoze, because it's either too
damn twitchy, or you have to polish the desk with it. Use that same mouse
under NeXTSTEP, where they bothered to make mouse acceleration work *right*,
and it's just fine.
-jcr
Joel Herda
> This new USB thing allows you to
>daisychain input devices of various sorts. Sounds
>remarkably like Apple's ADB
Apple's I-Mac prototypes are sporting a USB interface. I suspect it'll
become a new "standard".
joel
--
Joel Herda sysadmin-biker-skum 1983 Suzuki GS1100GL
jjo...@tiac.net DoD#2053 1995 Neon Sport Coupe DOHC
remove the leading j from my address to have email get through
Geoff Lane
In article <a85qm6...@flying.broomstick.com>,
a...@flying.broomstick.com (Arthur Hagen) writes:
> Uhm, you mean like SCSI, just slower, and without the chicken?
Having just had five meeting with disk array suppliers in TWO days[1] in
which the discussions centered around exactly what kind of SCSI will talk to
what other kind of SCSI, I have a number of questions/concerns
1. Is an ordinary chicken OK for UltraSCSI (or indeed
Fast Wide Differential SCSI) or is a goat essential?
2. Does FiberChannel require blood sacrifice. If it does, are
non-virginal students OK[2]
[1] Which exceeds both my personal best and annual quota of 2 per year.[3]
[2] Cheap and readily available.
[3] WHY is it necessary to almost have to BEG people to sell us stuff?!?
We have government money, they have academic discounts...
--
Geoff. Lane. Manchester Computing
Something _amazing_ is going to happen!
Mark Atwood
ptom...@canoe.xcski.com (Paul Tomblin) writes:
>
> In a previous article, jcr.r...@this.phrase.idiom.com said:
>
> keyboards a few times a year because the connector/cable junction frayed.
> Back when I was reading the typing injuries list, everybody was complaining
> about these things.
Hmm. No problem here. My only problem with my MSNK is that I don't
have a second one that would work with the Sparc20 I use at the
office.
--
Mark Atwood | He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already
m...@pobox.com | earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake,
| since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. -- Einstein
Mark Atwood
btg...@rmplc.co.uk (ric) writes:
>
> Alan Bellingham <al...@lspace.org> wrote:
>
> > OK, so Microsoft is involved in the spec. So's the rest of the Wintel
> > cartel (Wincartel?) - Compaq, Digital, IBM, Intel and so on. Whether
> > it's a good idea ... well, 127 peripherals _should_ be enough for
> > anyone, and if it _does_ take off, the concept of a single socket for
> > everything from monitors to keyboards should stop lusers screwing up so
> > badly.
> >
> > (Monitors with only 12 Mb/s? Yeah, right!)
>
> I think the idea with monitors is to allow smart control of the monitor
> configuration, and power swivel etc, rather than actually handling a
> video signal.
Yes. For video signal, you would need FireWire.
Idle thought. Does anyone know if there is a IP-over-USB and/or
IP-over-FireWire standard? They are just framed block serial
protocols. Maybe the "right thing" would be PPP-over- them, and then
IP on that...
(I've heard of IP-over-SCSI, IP-over-VME, and IP-over-PCI)
Alan J Rosenthal
M....@ulcc.ac.uk (Malcolm Ray) writes:
>Yes, you too can cause pain in various parts of the anatomy of your
>support staff by whining every time your crapware blows instead of sucks,
Aha, a microsoft advantage! The above would not be a problem because
Microsoft software ALWAYS sucks.
Eric The Read
Thank you veryfuckingmuch.
I'd ALMOST forgotten about that project. But NOOOOO... you just HAD to
remind me.
One iteration of the product we're currently making actually did
IP-over-SCSI, and you have absolutely NO idea how badly it sucks. I
mean, NT sucks less than IP-over-SCSI-- THAT's how badly it sucks.
*shudder*
I suppose I'll remember how to cope....
-=Eric
Arthur Hagen
In article <6mtlss$g3l$1...@probity.mcc.ac.uk>, e8993...@swirl.mcc.ac.uk writes:
> 1. Is an ordinary chicken OK for UltraSCSI (or indeed
> Fast Wide Differential SCSI) or is a goat essential?
In my experience, the goat isn't necessary until you want to mix
SCSI-III and SCSI-I on the same controller.
> 2. Does FiberChannel require blood sacrifice. If it does, are
> non-virginal students OK[2]
I'm sure they're ok, but not for all purposes.
--
*Art
Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH
Also sprach jjo...@tiac.net (Joel Herda) (<jjoelll-ya0234800...@svna0001.clipper.ssb.com>):
+-----
| In article <35908516...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, chi...@ix.netcom.com
| (Jeff Vinocur) wrote:
| > This new USB thing allows you to
| >daisychain input devices of various sorts. Sounds
| >remarkably like Apple's ADB
| Apple's I-Mac prototypes are sporting a USB interface. I suspect it'll
| become a new "standard".
But considering how badly ADB sucks, it may well be an improvement.
--
brandon s. allbery [team os/2][linux][japh] all...@kf8nh.apk.net
system administrator, ece facilities all...@ece.cmu.edu
carnegie mellon university (bsa@kf8nh is still valid.)
Geoff Lane
In article <xkf1zsd...@valdemar.col.hp.com>,
"Eric The Read" <emsc...@mail.uccs.edu> writes:
> One iteration of the product we're currently making actually did
> IP-over-SCSI, and you have absolutely NO idea how badly it sucks. I
> mean, NT sucks less than IP-over-SCSI-- THAT's how badly it sucks.
>
A long time ago, in a far away galaxy I admin'ed UTS on an Amdahl box
(That's a Unix-clone on an IBM clone.) The UTS was in it own hardware
partition and on occasion communicated[0] with other partitions via
IP-over-IBM-Channels[1].
obASR: If I _ever_ get my hands on the "Bull Eye" spammer I'm going to
perform "Death by processed pig bits" - a little known but effective
execution method.
[0] For _very_ small values of communicate.
[1] The ops just had a clearout from under the computer room floor panels.
They must have pulled out about 70 assorted grey and blue snakes of various
vintages. Curiously, no skeletons.
Tanuki the Raccoon-dog
In article <6mvk0k$2hh$1...@probity.mcc.ac.uk>, Geoff Lane
<e8994...@swirl.mcc.ac.uk> writes
>obASR: If I _ever_ get my hands on the "Bull Eye" spammer I'm going to
>perform "Death by processed pig bits" - a little known but effective
>execution method.
I'd rather see him given a maple-syrup enema, then staked out over an
anthill.
Those fsckers tried to relay off one of my clients recently. Fsckin'
WormPrefect Gropewise SMTP gateway-which-doesn't-record-HELO-strings-or-
do-any-reverse-SMTP-lookups..... kill kill kill kill kill kill!
--
!Raised Tails! -:Tanuki:-
http://www.canismajor.demon.co.uk/index.html
"Think Universally: Act Selfishly"
Felix von Leitner
Ian Pitcher <i.c.p...@ncl.acuk> wrote:
> - Get all the reliability you expect from Microsoft"
Well, can't say they didn't warn you.
Felix
--
Everything you read in the newspapers is absolutely true except for that
rare story of which you happen to have firsthand knowledge.
--Erwin Knoll
Peter Gutmann
Mark Atwood <m...@pobox.com> writes:
>Idle thought. Does anyone know if there is a IP-over-USB and/or
>IP-over-FireWire standard? They are just framed block serial
>protocols. Maybe the "right thing" would be PPP-over- them, and then
>IP on that...
>(I've heard of IP-over-SCSI, IP-over-VME, and IP-over-PCI)
You forgot IP-over-carpet-static.
Win98 was disgorged here with the usual fuss about NZ being the first place in
the world where you could buy it. A friend of mine and me discussed camping
outside the place in a sleeping bag and, with TV cameras rolling, buying The
First Copy Ever and Going OUT INTO THE MIDDLE OF THE STREET AND SETTING FIRE TO
IT AND DANCING AROUND IT WAVING A RUBBER CHICKEN!!!!
Well, it was a thought.
Peter.
Peter Gutmann
Ian Pitcher <i.c.p...@ncl.acuk> writes:
>Useful or not, they've provided me with one of the best giggles I've
>had in the last month or so...
>(Product Ad in the current Simply Computers[0] Catalogue)
>"Microsoft Wheel Mouse
><snip merits-of-mouse blurb until the final bullet point>
>- Get all the reliability you expect from Microsoft"
It's like Microsoft's Terraserver[0], which is meant to be a demonstration of
their scalable database technology. Connect to it and get about half the image
missing. Click on northern europe and wind up in the atlantic ocean. Do a
search by name and it comes back with a database error. Try to scroll down
into Germany and get an internal server error. Try another search (for NZ) and
get a different database error.
I couldn't have produced a better demonstration of Microsofts database
technology if I'd created it myself.
Peter.
[0] They missplet that word for marketing purposes I presume.
Tai
While pretending to be roadkill on the InfoBahn, <chi...@ix.netcom.com> scrawled:
>On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:56:25 GMT, Ian Pitcher
><i.c.p...@ncl.acuk> wrote:
>
>:(Product Ad in the current Simply Computers[0] Catalogue)
>:"Microsoft Wheel Mouse
>
>A microsoft magazine arrived at my house (address obviously
>leaked/stolen from somewhere) today. One of the "features"
>of Windows 98 is something called Universal Serial Bus or
>daisychain input devices of various sorts. Sounds
>for well over a decade).
Nits. Not the adb, adb was used to connect only teeny little stuff
like keyboards and stuff. Maxed out at 15 pieces too. What you want is
the SuperWoz Machine - disk drives, hard drives, etc etc, up to 127 devices,
including robots[1]. First found on the Apple //gs.
-Tai
--
Software suppliers are trying to make their software packages more
"user-friendly". ... Their best approach, so far, has been to take all
the old brochures, and stamp the words, "user-friendly" on the cover.
-- Bill Gates, Microsoft, Inc.
[Pot. Kettle. Black.]
[1] If you remember who first mentioned robots on the chain, hats off to ya :)
Nathan Mates
In article <slrn6p98n...@urd.spidernet.to>,
Tai <t...@urd.spidernet.to> wrote:
> Nits. Not the adb, adb was used to connect only teeny little stuff
>like keyboards and stuff. Maxed out at 15 pieces too. What you want is
>the SuperWoz Machine - disk drives, hard drives, etc etc, up to 127 devices,
>including robots[1]. First found on the Apple //gs.
Close, but not quite. <autolart=mild> Woz Integrated Machine was on
the GS motherboard. SWIM (Super WIM) was Apple's controller for the
1.44MB disks, and was only on a (rare) Apple II addon card that Apple
coughed up after Macs had had 1.44MB support for years after Macs had
them. </autolart> <rant> Of course, some "Don't think" zealots that
Apple NEVER did anything wrong or kept anything from the Apple IIs
that might allow them to compete with their precious bloody
Macs.</rant>
Nathan Mates
--
<*> Nathan Mates http://www.visi.com/~nathan/ <*>
# What are the facts? Again and again and again-- what are the _facts_?
# Shun wishful thinking, avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors
# think-- what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? -R.A. Heinlein
John C. Randolph
Mark Edwards may or may not have said:
-> [2] Woz and Jobs offered their design to HP first, since
-> they were working at HP then.
Two corrections: 1) It wasn't "their" design, it was Woz's design. 2) Jobs
never worked for HP. Job's contribution to the fracas was to convince Woz to
go commercial with it, to land the initial order, and to convince Mike
Markkula to help them financially.
-jcr
Majdi Abbas
On 25 Jun 1998 18:22:45 -0400, b...@kf8nh.apk.net wrote:
> But considering how badly ADB sucks, it may well be an improvement.
Actually, ADB itself doesn't suck too badly. They never really
supported it in software as well as they could have. NeXTStep and NetBSD/mac68k
are only slightly better.
--Majdi
Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH
Also sprach m...@gis.gen.il.us (<slrn6pdca...@nimitz.gis.gen.il.us>):
+-----
| On 25 Jun 1998 18:22:45 -0400, b...@kf8nh.apk.net wrote:
| > But considering how badly ADB sucks, it may well be an improvement.
| Actually, ADB itself doesn't suck too badly. They never really
No? Knock a cable out while running and fry the motherboard and half the
stuff on the bus, and that doesn't suck? I think I'd rather parallel-port
connected stuff and stringyfloppies.
Alistair J. R. Young
On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:56:25 GMT, in message <3590a5f5...@news.ncl.ac.uk>,
Ian Pitcher <i.c.p...@ncl.acuk> (== i.c.pitcher)
praised Shub-Internet thus:
> (Product Ad in the current Simply Computers[0] Catalogue)
> "Microsoft Wheel Mouse
> <snip merits-of-mouse blurb until the final bullet point>
> - Get all the reliability you expect from Microsoft"
> Sometimes I wonder...
Well, it doesn't say anything about how much reliability you expect
from Microsoft...
> [0] A PC mail order company here in the UK
Managing recently to behave even more like rogering tosspots than most
of these companies. ObClueForSimply: When I sign the credit agreement
and pay the deposit, the goods are *mine*. I do not *care* if you have
managed to lose your copy of the agreement - I want what I've paid
for, delivered when you promised it to me. I do *not* expect you to
sell my hardware to some other bastard, nor to turn the whole
situation into a bloody Whitehall farce.
Ho hum. Well, I suppose someone had to lose a UKP 10,000 hardware
order this month...
obUI: Ascend Pipeline 50? How much suckage?
Alistair
--
Computational Thaumaturge -- Sysimperator, dominus retis deusque machinarum.
e-mail: avata...@arkane.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.arkane.demon.co.uk/
"Loss of air pressure sucks."
Christopher R. Maden
pgu...@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) writes:
> It's like Microsoft's Terraserver[0],
[...]
> [0] They missplet that word for marketing purposes I presume.
TMBAMOTW "missplet" WWIWNF.
"Terra" == "Earth" ?
Sounds like a mapping application to me, so entirely appropriate. :
Sorry, never mind. ;
-crism
--
Reverend Christopher R.I.S. Maden K'91, Sc.B., B.S., KSC, A.Ø., ULC
Fifth Solo Clench of "Bob" Untied and Offender of SubGenii
"Gotta clear those giant heads." - the World Cup Golfer
And so will YOU on July Fifth! The world will end and YOU MAY DIE!
Arthur Hagen
In article <c1.2b8.2LyB4P$1...@esther.arkane.net>, Alistair J. R. Young <avatar...@arkane.demon.co.uk> writes:
> obUI: Ascend Pipeline 50? How much suckage?
Around 90mll more than the equivalent Cisco.
80 of this because *all* Ascend products I've seen require you to have
a console with DOS' codepage 2 characters. They haven't considered
that people use unix. The last 10 because they're so easy to crash.
Mind, Cisco/Livingston/Other products suck badly too. Depending on
the size of your straw, the 90mll might not even be noticable.
--
*Art
David Edwards
Christopher R. Maden <cr...@crism.ne.mediaone.net> wrote:
> pgu...@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) writes:
>> It's like Microsoft's Terraserver[0],
> [...]
>> [0] They missplet that word for marketing purposes I presume.
> TMBAMOTW "missplet" WWIWNF.
> "Terra" == "Earth" ?
> Sounds like a mapping application to me, so entirely appropriate. :
> Sorry, never mind. ;
In a previous life, I worked as an intern at the US Geological Survey, so,
unfortunately, I may have a bit more insight into this...
For what it's worth, the original plan was for MS to enter into an "innovative
partnership" with the US Geological Survey, to provide all these nifty digital
cartographic products over the Internet, with the goal of seeing if the MS technology
or the Internet broke first. The MS memo I saw regarding it was full of "demonstrating
the bottlenecks in the existing Internet technologies", and other such pointy-haired-isms,
suggesting that they fully intended to "break the internet".
I guess they have their answer now. :)
Oh, well, what can you really expect from a company (Microsoft) that is trying to make
mapping/cartographic applications based on the premise that the earth is flat? But the
USGS folks explained the earth is round, so now they think it's shaped like a frisbee.
<sigh>
Kai Henningsen
b...@kf8nh.apk.net (Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH) wrote on 25.06.98 in <6muijl$i...@speaker.kf8nh.apk.net>:
> But considering how badly ADB sucks, it may well be an improvement.
Well - I'm sure ADB sucks badly, but it can't possibly such as bad as PC
hardware, can it?
I _do_ know that I can use a stock Mac, two screens, two keyboards, and
two mice, and use the machine from two different rooms sequentially,
including switching the main display to the right monitor, because I've
done it before. I also know that I could write a mouse-less multi-user
application for that configuration, because it's quite easy to determine
which keyboard typed a certain key (for the mouse, I'd have to work a bit
harder, as two mice by default control the same cursor).
Nontrivial on a PC - even hardware-wise.
Kai
--
http://www.westfalen.de/private/khms/
"... by God I *KNOW* what this network is for, and you can't have it."
- Russ Allbery (r...@stanford.edu)
Joe Thompson
> Also sprach m...@gis.gen.il.us (<slrn6pdca...@nimitz.gis.gen.il.us>):
> +-----
> | On 25 Jun 1998 18:22:45 -0400, b...@kf8nh.apk.net wrote:
> | > But considering how badly ADB sucks, it may well be an improvement.
> | Actually, ADB itself doesn't suck too badly. They never really
> +--->8
>
> No? Knock a cable out while running and fry the motherboard and half the
> stuff on the bus, and that doesn't suck? I think I'd rather parallel-port
> connected stuff and stringyfloppies.
This is almost entirely false. I'm not going to discount the possibility
that it *could* happen, or that it *may* have happened to someone, but I
have hot-plugged ADB devices literally hundreds of times and the worst
thing that ever happened was the mouse speed reset to "tablet", requiring
a reboot. This is on everything from an SE right up to a 6400 and beyond.
OTOH, any bus which relies on devices to do their own collision detection
(and makes it impossible for all but one to detect the collision to begin
with), and fscks up when a device responds *too fast* still sucks. There
is an Apple technote entitled "Space Aliens Ate my Mouse" or some such
describing ADB in Far Too Much Detail. -- Joe
--
Joe Thompson | By sending commercial | Tech support is a fine
O- He-Who-Grinds- | e-mail, you agree to | art which, once mastered,
the-Unworthy | pay US$1000.00/item. | ensures loss of sanity.
http://kensey.home.mindspring.com/ - Electrify the gene pool's fence!
John C. Randolph
Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH may or may not have said:
-> Also sprach m...@gis.gen.il.us (<slrn6pdca...@nimitz.gis.gen.il.us>):
-> +-----
-> | On 25 Jun 1998 18:22:45 -0400, b...@kf8nh.apk.net wrote:
-> | > But considering how badly ADB sucks, it may well be an improvement.
-> | Actually, ADB itself doesn't suck too badly. They never really
-> +--->8
->
-> No? Knock a cable out while running and fry the motherboard and half the
-> stuff on the bus, and that doesn't suck? I think I'd rather parallel-port
-> connected stuff and stringyfloppies.
I've never had hardware damage from unplugging an ADB device, but I've only
used them on NeXT slabs. Apple's implementation probably sucked.
-jcr
John C. Randolph
Joe Thompson may or may not have said:
-[snip]
-> OTOH, any bus which relies on devices to do their own collision detection
-> (and makes it impossible for all but one to detect the collision to begin
-> with), and fscks up when a device responds *too fast* still sucks.
Oh, I dunno: Ethernet works just fine for me, and it requires all the
transceivers to do collision detection. I will agree that getting confused
by a fast response is bad, but I've never seen it happen on an ADB chain.
-jcr
Marshall McGowan
Kai Henningsen (kaih=6wmXm...@khms.westfalen.de) wrote:
:
: I _do_ know that I can use a stock Mac, two screens, two keyboards, and
: including switching the main display to the right monitor, because I've
: done it before. I also know that I could write a mouse-less multi-user
: application for that configuration, because it's quite easy to determine
: which keyboard typed a certain key (for the mouse, I'd have to work a bit
: harder, as two mice by default control the same cursor).
Oh, yeah. Heh.
At one point I wanted to see if I could emulate a Apple Ergonomic Keyboard.
They're split down the middle and hinge back and forth.
Stuck two keyboards onto the ADB string and had a mouse sticking out the end
of one of them. Typed on one with my right hand and the other with my left
hand. It worked out fairly well, except for the fact that if you wanted to
shift or control or option or command (open apple) modify a keystroke, you
had to do both the modifier and the keystroke on the same keyboard. That
made it somewhat awkward because of my typing style.
But it worked.
Marshall
--
Marshall McGowan | Heisenberg slept here, or somewhere else nearby.
mars...@sonic.net | W J Williams, Atonement Days.
Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH
Also sprach ab...@orion-com.com (Joe Thompson) (<abuse-30069...@user-37kba8q.dialup.mindspring.com>):
+-----
| > | > But considering how badly ADB sucks, it may well be an improvement.
| that it *could* happen, or that it *may* have happened to someone, but I
It *did* happen, a number of times. But in all cases it was fairly early
hardware; it's not outside the realm of possibility that Apple beefed it
up after the first few months of production.
Majdi Abbas
On 28 Jun 1998 22:10:58 -0400, b...@kf8nh.apk.net wrote:
> No? Knock a cable out while running and fry the motherboard and half the
> stuff on the bus, and that doesn't suck? I think I'd rather parallel-port
Only if you were hot swapping to an ADB cable with 120VAC on the
other end. I find this extremely difficult to believe. I've worked with
them, owned them, labsat hundreds of them with thousands of lusers, many of
whom spilled things, dropped keyboards, fiddled with cabling -- you name it.
Never seen it happen on Apple or NeXT hardware. Never heard of it
happening, either.
Are you sure you didn't do something else to it coincidentally?
Also, if memory serves, ADB in hardware does support disconnect
but the MacOS never really did, so you could hang it that way, but that
was about it.
--Majdi
Majdi Abbas
Majdi Abbas
On Mon, 29 Jun 1998 12:06:20 +0200, a...@flying.broomstick.com wrote:
> Around 90mll more than the equivalent Cisco.
> 80 of this because *all* Ascend products I've seen require you to have
> a console with DOS' codepage 2 characters. They haven't considered
> that people use unix. The last 10 because they're so easy to crash.
> Mind, Cisco/Livingston/Other products suck badly too. Depending on
> the size of your straw, the 90mll might not even be noticable.
That's nothing. The lack of no *real* debugging mode (hex
packet dumps suck when debugging an international circuit with unusual
hardware on the other end; BT, DT, not going back.
The interface was the other disappointment. The good news is,
we're router shopping for a 16xx or 25xx to replace the thing[0] the
P50 was going to replace.
All in all, they really didn't live up to their reputation, and
they charge almost as much as Cisco -- If you're getting one to do ISDN,
however, note that the Cisco 7xx's don't run stock IOS, and you can run
into some headaches.
If any of this is useful you need a real life.
--Majdi
[0] I use the word lightly. Very lightly.
Lyle Craver
On 25 Jun 98 01:42:59 GMT, jf...@acm.dot.org wrote:
> That was easily fixed, in my case...simply splice on the cable from the
>keyboard I'd acquired the MS Natural keyboard to replace. Worked like a charm
>ever since, and now the cable is almost 10 feet long. :->
Hmmm....sounds like an excellent garrote^h^h^h^h^h^h^hLART to me!
------------------------------------
To reply to me remove 1 from address
Lyle Craver
On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:36:31 +0100, btg...@rmplc.co.uk (ric) wrote:
>I think the chicken may still be needed, remember Gates' experience with
>a W98 late beta and a USB scanner?
Hmmm. Anybody got an .avi of that? I'll swap for an .avi of Gates
getting pied in Belgium earlier this year...
Jake Riddoch
Joe Zeff <jo...@earthlink.net> spaketh unto the monastary thusly:
>sam...@GEMUNG.clark.AUS.net.spam (Acid Rainbow) wrote:
>
>> This happens to be one of my favorite examples of Lose95 brain-deadness,
>>'nother words that in safe mode it doesn't load the CD-ROM drivers. So
>>there you are with the %&$#@ing thing yelling for stuff that's on the
>>CD-ROM that it can't read now although it was perfectly happy with it a few
>>minutes ago...
>
>There is a way to avoid this if you plan ahead. Alas, telling how
>would be UI.
I think I can guess how, but I'm not installing win95 again at the
moment. It is, however, the suckiest part of the installation process.
At least I now know to skip the printer installation bit and do it once
everything's up and running[1].
1/ make that crawling.
--
Jake Riddoch http://www.larien.demon.co.uk/
"And Yeah, as I walk through the valley of the shadow of Death, I shall fear no
evil, 'cos I'm packing an M60 with explosive ammo!"
Beware spam trap! Email is jake at larien dot demon dot co dot uk.
Kai Henningsen
e8994...@swirl.mcc.ac.uk (Geoff Lane) wrote on 26.06.98 in <6mvk0k$2hh$1...@probity.mcc.ac.uk>:
> A long time ago, in a far away galaxy I admin'ed UTS on an Amdahl box
Aah, Amdahl UTS ...
> IP-over-IBM-Channels[1].
Oh yes, CTCAs ... real fun is doing virtual CTCAs under VM.
For a game.
Kai Henningsen
jcr.r...@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote on 24.06.98 in <6mqkp4$ktp$2...@supernews.com>:
> Well, let's give credit where credit is due: MicroSquish has always made
> *excellent* hardware.
They *WHAT*?!
You never met a Softcard, obviously. One of the most FPOS cards ever made
for the Apple ][, by none other than M$.
It did a Z80 at 2 MHz, which is bad enough.
Worse is that when you took two Apples, and two Softcards, you could often
make them work by switching the cards around. I kid you not.
Kai Henningsen
chi...@ix.netcom.com (Jeff Vinocur) wrote on 26.06.98 in <3591db61...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>:
> Well the impression that Microsoft gives is that USB is all
> their wonderful doing. Something didn't ring true about
> that though.
Well, either you're a M$ believer, in which case _everything_ was invented
by M$, or else you're not, in which case they ripped everything off
someone else.
Tony Finch
btg...@rmplc.co.uk (ric) wrote:
>
>I think the idea with monitors is to allow smart control of the monitor
>configuration, and power swivel etc, rather than actually handling a
>video signal.
Also, a monitor makes a handy USB hub, for plugging in your USB
keyboard, mouse, speakers, scanner, etc, etc, so you reduce the tangle
factor and don't have to go grovelling on the floor around the main
case.
Tony.
--
F.A.N.Finch <d...@dotat.at> <fa...@demon.net> +44-7970-401-426
. . . .ke. .kg.kh.ki. . . .km.kn. . . .kr. . . . .kw. .ky.kz.
. . .id.ie. . . . . . .il.im.in.io. .iq.ir.is.it. . . . . . .
ga.gb. .gd.ge.gf.gg.gh.gi. . .gl.gm.gn. .gp.gq.gr.gs.gt.gu. .gw. .gy. .
Arthur Hagen
In article <6xHOU...@khms.westfalen.de>, kaih=6xHOU...@khms.westfalen.de writes:
> Worse is that when you took two Apples, and two Softcards, you could often
> make them work by switching the cards around. I kid you not.
Amazing! You had two identical computers, A and B, with two identical
cards, a and b, and you swap a and b and they *STILL* work? Woah!
--
*Art
Siggi B
IDTHMWYTHM.
ITHM;
machine A with card A and machine B with card B = no good.
machine A with card B and machine B with card A = fine.
i think :-)
SIggi the Underpaid.
--
Error reading reality.sys! Reboot Universe? (Abort,Retry,Fail):
au com wr at siggi
figure it out.
Jake Riddoch
monastary thusly:
>Tony Finch said on 5 Jul 1998 21:51:01 GMT:
>ObFrontPage: I collected all the spurious <p> tags FrontPage insists on
>sticking in ***MY*** stuff. I figure if I post them to usenet, it will
>suddenly find it has hit its quota and SHUT THE FUCK UP. One can hope.
><p><p><p><p><p><p><p><p><p><p><p><p><p><p><p><p><p><p><p><p><p><p><p><p>
Well, that's just caused most of the HTML reading news-readers to scroll
up a page. What a shame.
In my experience, the <P> tags aren't a problem, its the <FONT> tags
that are worst. Usually with no content in between, eg:
<FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="12"><P><H3></FONT>
Well, that's my experience with Word; the few Frontpage abominations^W
pages have had far too many <FONT> tags for their own good. For me,
<META NAME="GENERATOR" CONTENT="/usr/bin/vi"> is more appropriate :)
Before that, it was c:\windows\notepad.exe. I've found it's
easier/quicker to edit a plain text file into HTML than to edit a page
that Word 97 creates.
j...@lasser.org
> Well, that's my experience with Word; the few Frontpage abominations^W
> pages have had far too many <FONT> tags for their own good. For me,
> <META NAME="GENERATOR" CONTENT="/usr/bin/vi"> is more appropriate :)
> Before that, it was c:\windows\notepad.exe. I've found it's
> easier/quicker to edit a plain text file into HTML than to edit a page
> that Word 97 creates.
<LART REASON=UI TYPE=NOT-REALLY WHY-NOT=WINDOWS-UI-DOESNT-COUNT>
The appropriate solution, of course, to FrontPage problems (should you
be forced to do any HTML in FP) is sed. Sed makes it real easy to remove
<FONT> tags :-)
Of course, if you're on a box with sed, then you're probably not being
forced to use M$FP. So this isn't really UI.</UI>
Jon
--
Jon Lasser (410)383-7962 http://www.tux.org/~lasser/
Work: j...@umbc.edu Home: j...@lasser.org
. . . and the walls became the world all around . . . (Maurice Sendak)
Berry Kercheval
> Of course, if you're on a box with sed, then you're probably not being
> forced to use M$FP. So this isn't really UI.</UI>
M$FP runs, for some value of runs approaching epsilon, on Unix boxes.
Then too, if we could post UI I'd tell y'all about U/WIN, Dave Korn's latest.
My personal "favorite" Word->HTML abomination is the way it does things like
(This taken directly from an example, with only specific content excised):
<B><I><FONT FACE="Arial"><P>
Some words put in italic and then bold
</B></I></FONT>
Yes, look at the cool way the <B> and <I> and <FONT> tags don't nest properly.
Needless to say, weblint throws a fit.
I don't know what they smoke in Redmond but it must be powerful.
--berry "Maybe it's Starbucks"
(I drink Peet's myself)
Felix von Leitner
> In my experience, the <P> tags aren't a problem, its the <FONT> tags
> that are worst. Usually with no content in between, eg:
> <FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="12"><P><H3></FONT>
Well, the font tags are ignored by real browsers, but Stuff like this
just pisses me off:
<B><P><I>Foo Bar Baz</B></P></I>
ARGH!1!!
Felix
--
PL/1, "the fatal disease", belongs more
to the problem set than to the solution set.
--E.W. Dijkstra
Merijn Broeren
Felix von Leitner <leitne...@amdiv.de> wrote:
>
>Well, the font tags are ignored by real browsers, but Stuff like this
>just pisses me off:
>
><B><P><I>Foo Bar Baz</B></P></I>
>
In one of my previous incarnations I wrote a webbrowser, exposing me to
things Netscape parses in HTML which are far and far worse. Try these
effects for a laugh:
<P>This is a <B>bold <I>italic</U> bit of text</P>
Netscape has a disregard for DTDs which is difficult to believe until
you try to be bug-for-bug compatible with them.
Cheers,
--
Merijn Broeren | Sometime in the middle ages, God got fed up with us
Rover & Newton | and put earth at sol.milky-way.univ in his kill-file.
Lunatech Research | Pray all you want, it just gets junked.
e-mail : merijnb at lunatech.com | s-mail : Pb 27532 3003 MA R'dam NL
Jake Riddoch
thusly:
>j...@lasser.org writes:
>> Of course, if you're on a box with sed, then you're probably not being
>> forced to use M$FP. So this isn't really UI.</UI>
The web server is a unix box. However, I sometimes get files as Word
documents and get told to put them online. I did try sed, but I
couldn't get the script to work last time I tried and I couldn't be
bothered fiddling with it so I just saved as text and editted it myself.
It's better that way since you can decide how you want to handle text
editting. One doc I got had the most abysmal formatting imaginable:
huge fonts one line and then standard sized font the next.
>M$FP runs, for some value of runs approaching epsilon, on Unix boxes.
>Then too, if we could post UI I'd tell y'all about U/WIN, Dave Korn's latest.
I knew about Outlook and IE on Solaris, but hadn't heard about FP; I
know of the FP extension thingy on Apache...
>My personal "favorite" Word->HTML abomination is the way it does things like
>(This taken directly from an example, with only specific content excised):
>
> <B><I><FONT FACE="Arial"><P>
> Some words put in italic and then bold
> </B></I></FONT>
>
>Yes, look at the cool way the <B> and <I> and <FONT> tags don't nest properly.
>Needless to say, weblint throws a fit.
Yargh, isn't this expressly forbidden in HTML? Or is it just "not
recommended"???
>I don't know what they smoke in Redmond but it must be powerful.
Hrm, I could use some if it makes you get away from reality...
OBDamnHardware
On the subject of webservers, ours threw a wobbly today. Got a few I/O
errors on disk reads... Uh oh, sounds bad. Sure enough,
/var/adm/messages full of disk errors. Damn, boot into single user
mode, try fsck. "cannot access /dev/vx/rdsk/vol02". Yup, Volume
manager on a Sparc Storage Array. So today I got to learn how vxva
works the hard way. Boss is away so it's down to me and the new guy[1]
to fix, neither of us knowing much[3] and having to poke around to
figure out (a) what's wrong and (b) how to fix it.
As far as I can tell, because one of the disks died, that volume can't
"start" so I can't fsck it. Today's lesson is on disaster recovery.
Luckily we had a spare volume of the same size we could do a restore to
and then mount. Unfortunately, that took until about 6:30. Oh, well,
at least it gave me a chance to put the extra memory into the Novell
servers.[4]
1/ Who started a week ago[2]
2/ seems an ok guy; another unix man.
3/ I knew it was an array of disks mungled together somehow.
4/ Now running on 128MB each[5]
5/ They were sort of ok on 64 each, but one was running out now and
again.[6]
6/ Note these are Novell servers. If they were NT servers, they'd be
crawling at 128, in all likelihood.
James Lin
> In article <6xHOU...@khms.westfalen.de>, kaih=6xHOU...@khms.westfalen.de writes:
>> Worse is that when you took two Apples, and two Softcards, you could often
>> make them work by switching the cards around. I kid you not.
> Amazing! You had two identical computers, A and B, with two identical
> cards, a and b, and you swap a and b and they *STILL* work? Woah!
You are a riot!
I once had a ][+, with a CP/M card not made by MS, and it had a
Z80 at 2Mhz as well. Didn't know there were faster ones...
M$ makes good hardware... my ten year old Logitech C series mouse
still works and works great; all the newer Logitech mice suck.
MS mice all are decent, except for the first one which was ugly.
Other hardware's good too, not as good as IBM perhaps, but
decent. IMO. <shurg>
-James
Kim Alm
[ M$ makes good hardware...
Good hardware, what are you on, all hardware sucks.
[ my ten year old Logitech C series mouse
[ still works and works great; all the newer Logitech mice suck.
All mice suck, it's a ridiculus invention, a mouse is a device used to
point at the xterm you want to type in.
[ MS mice all are decent, except for the first one which was ugly.
[ Other hardware's good too, not as good as IBM perhaps, but
[ decent. IMO. <shurg>
Hmm, first statement "M$ makes good hardware" second statement is that
IBMs hardware is better that M$ hardware, are you trying to convince us
that IBM is very good, or just better than good?
/me scarred
--
\ k...@bofh.se http://www.sit.fi/~kea (And I'm not proud of it)
O/\__ Unsolicited e-mail sent to me will be bounced to postmaster of
<\__,\ the site where the mail originated from!
"\, \
Lorens Kockum
>
>All mice suck, it's a ridiculus invention, a mouse is a device used to
>point at the xterm you want to type in.
You forgot copy-n-paste from one xterm to another.
Otherwise I'd have had me a sig, at long last.
--
#include <std_disclaim.h> Lorens Kockum
Kai Henningsen
> In article <6xHOU...@khms.westfalen.de>,
> kaih=6xHOU...@khms.westfalen.de writes:
>
> > Worse is that when you took two Apples, and two Softcards, you could often
> > make them work by switching the cards around. I kid you not.
>
> Amazing! You had two identical computers, A and B, with two identical
> cards, a and b, and you swap a and b and they *STILL* work? Woah!
Ah, no. And they then _start_ to work, whereas they didn't before.
You know, "... make them work *by* ...", not "... instead of ...".
Kai Henningsen
> Arthur Hagen <a...@flying.broomstick.com> wrote:
> > In article <6xHOU...@khms.westfalen.de>,
> > kaih=6xHOU...@khms.westfalen.de writes:
>
> >> Worse is that when you took two Apples, and two Softcards, you could
> >> often make them work by switching the cards around. I kid you not.
>
> > Amazing! You had two identical computers, A and B, with two identical
> > cards, a and b, and you swap a and b and they *STILL* work? Woah!
>
> You are a riot!
>
> I once had a ][+, with a CP/M card not made by MS, and it had a
> Z80 at 2Mhz as well. Didn't know there were faster ones...
I expect it was a clone. There were lots of them.
I actually have a card with an 8 MHz Z80 for the ][+, with its own 64 KB
(the only way to actually make it go 8 MHz), plus an 256 KB expansion
card. I think I've mentioned that beast before in this froup - it's the
one where the memory test program wouldn't even notice if you pull out all
the memory.
> M$ makes good hardware... my ten year old Logitech C series mouse
You probably meant "... makes _some_ good hardware, too ...".
Lyle Craver
Henningsen) wrote:
>You never met a Softcard, obviously. One of the most FPOS cards ever made
>for the Apple ][, by none other than M$.
>
>It did a Z80 at 2 MHz, which is bad enough.
You had one of those too eh? I paid Cdn $350 for one and then found
one piece of CP/M software that was tolerable...
In fairness, the Z80 WAS 2 Mhz as you say which wasn't a bad as you
say given that the Apple II they typically went into were 1 Mhz.
Kai Henningsen
> In fairness, the Z80 WAS 2 Mhz as you say which wasn't a bad as you
> say given that the Apple II they typically went into were 1 Mhz.
Given that a 1 MHz 6502 is approximately as fast as a 4 MHz Z80 (or a 4.77
MHz 8088, at that), this was indeed bad.
Ben Hutchings
Lyle Craver <lcr...@portal1.ca> wrote:
>On 05 Jul 1998 20:36:00 +0200, kaih=6xHOU...@khms.westfalen.de (Kai
>Henningsen) wrote:
>
>>You never met a Softcard, obviously. One of the most FPOS cards ever made
>>for the Apple ][, by none other than M$.
>>
>>It did a Z80 at 2 MHz, which is bad enough.
>
>You had one of those too eh? I paid Cdn $350 for one and then found
>one piece of CP/M software that was tolerable...
>
>say given that the Apple II they typically went into were 1 Mhz.
Um, a 1 MHz 6502 is often considered to be comparable in speed to a
*4* MHz Z80. Most 6502 instructions execute in 2 or 3 cycles; the Z80
takes rather more than that.
--
Ben Hutchings - needs a job - http://ferret.lmh.ox.ac.uk/~womble/cv.html
New address: wom...@ferret.lmh.ox.ac.uk | Jay Miner Society - www.jms.org
Design a system any fool can use, and only a fool will want to use it.
Ben Hutchings
Simon Slavin <slavins.at.hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost> wrote:
>In article <slrn6q6bva....@felix.amdiv.de>,
>lei...@amdiv.de (Felix von Leitner) wrote:
>
>> Jake Riddoch <ja...@nothere.larien.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> > In my experience, the <P> tags aren't a problem, its the <FONT> tags
>> > that are worst. Usually with no content in between, eg:
>> > <FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="12"><P><H3></FONT>
>>
>> just pisses me off:
>>
>> <B><P><I>Foo Bar Baz</B></P></I>
>
>each-other ... 'bold' has nothing to do with 'italic'. All that's
>necessary is that the parser keep track of the state of each one.
>The attributes of paragraph breaks themselves are ignored.
It's still not legal in any SGML document. Pairs of opening and
closing tags must be nested.
Simon Slavin
> Jake Riddoch <ja...@nothere.larien.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In my experience, the <P> tags aren't a problem, its the <FONT> tags
> > that are worst. Usually with no content in between, eg:
> > <FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE="12"><P><H3></FONT>
>
> Well, the font tags are ignored by real browsers, but Stuff like this
> just pisses me off:
>
> <B><P><I>Foo Bar Baz</B></P></I>
I have no problem with this. Text attributes are independent of
each-other ... 'bold' has nothing to do with 'italic'. All that's
necessary is that the parser keep track of the state of each one.
The attributes of paragraph breaks themselves are ignored.
Simon.
--
Simon Slavin | [T-rations] were supposed to serve 8
Check email address for UBE-guard. | soldiers, but since no one would eat
Junktrap deletes >4 UBEs/day unread. | them one tray would do for an infinite
<http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk> | number. -- Dave Wilton
Tanuki the Raccoon-dog
emon.co.uk@localhost.? writes
>In article <slrn6q6bva....@felix.amdiv.de>,
>lei...@amdiv.de (Felix von Leitner) wrote:
>> Well, the font tags are ignored by real browsers, but Stuff like this
>> just pisses me off:
>>
>> <B><P><I>Foo Bar Baz</B></P></I>
>
>I have no problem with this. Text attributes are independent of
>each-other ... 'bold' has nothing to do with 'italic'. All that's
>necessary is that the parser keep track of the state of each one.
>The attributes of paragraph breaks themselves are ignored.
It may indeed *work*[1], but it isn't *elegant*.
Indeed, it is hideous beyond my present capabilities to describe...
[1]in the sense that *any* HTML ever 'works'
--
--------------!Raised Tails!-------------------:Tanuki:-------------
http://www.canismajor.demon.co.uk/index.htm
"Someone cover me... I'm rebooting..."
Merijn Broeren
Simon Slavin <slavins.at.hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost> wrote:
>lei...@amdiv.de (Felix von Leitner) wrote:
>>
>> <B><P><I>Foo Bar Baz</B></P></I>
>
>I have no problem with this. Text attributes are independent of
>each-other ... 'bold' has nothing to do with 'italic'. All that's
>necessary is that the parser keep track of the state of each one.
>The attributes of paragraph breaks themselves are ignored.
>
from figuring this one out. The above </b> *closes* the <i>. Yes. Argh.
Try a </u> instead. Or feed it: <b><tt>Foo </u>Bar </I>Baz
So Netscape doesn't agree with you that text attributes have nothing to
do with eachother. It just pushes and pops them indiscriminantly. When
they opened the source I laughed maniacally when people said with glee
a "decent" parser for html would finally be available.
If this is UI, you have my deepest sympathy.
Michael Brown
(Simon Slavin) wrote:
>In article <slrn6q6bva....@felix.amdiv.de>,
>lei...@amdiv.de (Felix von Leitner) wrote:
>
>>
>> <B><P><I>Foo Bar Baz</B></P></I>
>
>I have no problem with this. Text attributes are independent of
>each-other ... 'bold' has nothing to do with 'italic'. All that's
>necessary is that the parser keep track of the state of each one.
>The attributes of paragraph breaks themselves are ignored.
Maybe you don't have a problem with this, but Netscrape does! It turns off
italics at </B>, and </I> does nothing. Bleagh. Strange, especially when you
consider that writing a parser for that line is not terribly difficult.
$ lynx www.netscape.com
M.
Abigail
MCMXCIII in <URL: news:89989039...@perla.rotterdam.luna.net>:
++
++ Netscape has a disregard for DTDs which is difficult to believe until
++ you try to be bug-for-bug compatible with them.
One of the techleads from Netscape said the following a couple of years
ago in the HTML workgroup (when HTML was still an open process):
"We don't believe in DTDs"
Abigail
--
perl5.004 -wMMath::BigInt -e'$^V=new Math::BigInt+qq;$^F$^W783$[$%9889$^F47$|88768$^W596577669$%$^W5$^F3364$[$^W$^F$|838747$[8889739$%$|$^F673$%$^W98$^F76777$=56;;$^U=substr($]=>$|=>5)*(q.25..($^W=@^V))=>do{print+chr$^V%$^U;$^V/=$^U}while$^V!=$^W'
Abigail
MDCCLXXIII September MCMXCIII in <URL: news:B1CB0BBF...@hearsay.demon.co.uk>:
++
++ I have no problem with this. Text attributes are independent of
++ each-other ... 'bold' has nothing to do with 'italic'. All that's
++ necessary is that the parser keep track of the state of each one.
++ The attributes of paragraph breaks themselves are ignored.
What a luserish attitude. Sure, it works for tag-salad luser browsers,
but it's going to hurt you badly when applying style sheets (for instance
DSSSL). Why do you think we had to wait so long for even the most minimal
style sheet support?
Abigail
--
perl -MTime::JulianDay -lwe'@r=reverse(M=>(0)x99=>CM=>(0)x399=>D=>(0)x99=>CD=>(
0)x299=>C=>(0)x9=>XC=>(0)x39=>L=>(0)x9=>XL=>(0)x29=>X=>IX=>0=>0=>0=>V=>IV=>0=>0
=>I=>$r=-2449231+gm_julian_day+time);do{until($r<$#r){$_.=$r[$#r];$r-=$#r}for(;
!$r[--$#r];){}}while$r;$,="\x20";print+$_=>September=>MCMXCIII=>()'
Joe Thompson
merijn...@lunatech.com (Merijn Broeren) wrote:
> I don't think you know what netscape does with this, I still have nightmares
> from figuring this one out. The above </b> *closes* the <i>. Yes. Argh.
> Try a </u> instead. Or feed it: <b><tt>Foo </u>Bar </I>Baz
>
> So Netscape doesn't agree with you that text attributes have nothing to
> do with eachother. It just pushes and pops them indiscriminantly. When
> they opened the source I laughed maniacally when people said with glee
> a "decent" parser for html would finally be available.
But in reality, this makes perfect sense because last time I checked the
spec, you *could not interleave tags*! That's right, <b><i>Stuff</b> and
nonsense!</i> is illegal. Since you can nest but not interleave, I can't
think of a case where an end-tag should not close off the previous
unclosed opening of a container. -- Joe
--
Joe Thompson | Tanuki on spammers: "...the freezer is full, and the
ab...@orion-com.com | body in the bathtub is starting to decompose."
http://kensey.home.mindspring.com/ : O- He-Who-Grinds-the-Unworthy
Support evolution! Electrify the gene pool's fence!
Kai Henningsen
> On Fri, 10 Jul 1998 00:07:27 +0100, slavins.at.hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost
> (Simon Slavin) wrote:
>
> >In article <slrn6q6bva....@felix.amdiv.de>,
> >lei...@amdiv.de (Felix von Leitner) wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> <B><P><I>Foo Bar Baz</B></P></I>
> >
> >I have no problem with this. Text attributes are independent of
> >each-other ... 'bold' has nothing to do with 'italic'. All that's
> >necessary is that the parser keep track of the state of each one.
> >The attributes of paragraph breaks themselves are ignored.
>
> Maybe you don't have a problem with this, but Netscrape does! It turns off
> italics at </B>, and </I> does nothing. Bleagh. Strange, especially when you
> consider that writing a parser for that line is not terribly difficult.
I have no trouble with this. Broken HTML gets what it deserves.
Arthur Hagen
> But in reality, this makes perfect sense because last time I checked the
> spec, you *could not interleave tags*! That's right, <b><i>Stuff</b> and
> nonsense!</i> is illegal. Since you can nest but not interleave, I can't
> think of a case where an end-tag should not close off the previous
> unclosed opening of a container. -- Joe
I wish the W3.org people had had some more sense, and made all tags
into containers[1], and then made the </closingtagtext>
optional. So you could close all tags with </> if you wanted.
[1]: Especially <P>. I hate it when I see a mix of <P>...</P> and <P>
on its own within the same document. You can't be certain how it's
meant to be parsed.
--
*Art
Ben Hutchings
Joe Thompson <ab...@orion-com.com> wrote:
<snip>
>But in reality, this makes perfect sense because last time I checked the
>spec, you *could not interleave tags*! That's right, <b><i>Stuff</b> and
>nonsense!</i> is illegal.
This is supposed to be news?
>Since you can nest but not interleave, I can't think of a case where
>an end-tag should not close off the previous unclosed opening of a
>container. -- Joe
Closing tags are optional in most cases, so you can't be sure of that.
Try nested tables in Netscape 4.0, and leave off the (optional) </TD>
and </TR> tags. The result is a complete fsck-up.
Simon Cozens
> perl5.004 -wMMath::BigInt -e'$^V=new Math::BigInt+qq;$^F$^W783$[$%9889$^F47$|88768$^W596577669$%$^W5$^F3364$[$^W$^F$|838747$[8889739$%$|$^F673$%$^W98$^F76777$=56;;$^U=substr($]=>$|=>5)*(q.25..($^W=@^V))=>do{print+chr$^V%$^U;$^V/=$^U}while$^V!=$^W'
How many characters per line?! With apologies to eric:
print((@_=($!=13)=~/...(.)(.)(.)..(.)(.)/)[2,1,0,3,4])
--
Always look over your shoulder because everyone is watching and plotting
against you.
Abigail
MCMXCIII in <URL: news:8a38o6...@flying.broomstick.com>:
++
++ In article <abuse-11079...@user-37kba87.dialup.mindspring.com>, ab...@orion-com.com writes:
++
++ > But in reality, this makes perfect sense because last time I checked the
++ > spec, you *could not interleave tags*! That's right, <b><i>Stuff</b> and
++ > nonsense!</i> is illegal. Since you can nest but not interleave, I can't
++ > think of a case where an end-tag should not close off the previous
++ > unclosed opening of a container. -- Joe
++
++ I wish the W3.org people had had some more sense, and made all tags
++ into containers[1], and then made the </closingtagtext>
++ optional. So you could close all tags with </> if you wanted.
Oh, but you can. The problem is finding a browser that grogs that.
++ [1]: Especially <P>. I hate it when I see a mix of <P>...</P> and <P>
++ on its own within the same document. You can't be certain how it's
++ meant to be parsed.
\begin{UI}[LART]
Hmmm. <P> has been a container ever since HTML was formalized. That is,
since 1992 or so.
\end{UI}
Arthur Hagen
> \begin{UI}[LART]
> Hmmm. <P> has been a container ever since HTML was formalized. That is,
> since 1992 or so.
> \end{UI}
The problem is that using <P> as a container is _optional_ - you can
use it as a separator too, and there's no way to tell what is meant
when people mix <P> used with and without </P>.
How would you parse this:
<P>blah<P>blah</P>blah<P>blah<P>blah</P>
?
Regards,
--
*Art
Jake Riddoch
>\begin{UI}[LART]
>Hmmm. <P> has been a container ever since HTML was formalized. That is,
>since 1992 or so.
>\end{UI}
Continuing the UI:
The HTML 3.2 reference doc (from W3) actually states that <P> end tags
can be inferred, so you don't need </P>. There's a few other end tags
that are optional, as well. Haven't read the 4.0 spec properly yet.
--
Jake Riddoch http://www.larien.demon.co.uk/
"Windows has detected that a gnat has farted near your computer. Press any key
to reboot." - Simon Oke in the scary devil monastery
Abigail
MCMXCIII in <URL: news:pegao6...@flying.broomstick.com>:
++
++ In article <6oa853$nng$1...@client3.news.psi.net>, abi...@fnx.com writes:
++
++ > \begin{UI}[LART]
++ > Hmmm. <P> has been a container ever since HTML was formalized. That is,
++ > since 1992 or so.
++ > \end{UI}
++
++ The problem is that using <P> as a container is _optional_ - you can
++ use it as a separator too, and there's no way to tell what is meant
++ when people mix <P> used with and without </P>.
++
++ How would you parse this:
++
++ <P>blah<P>blah</P>blah<P>blah<P>blah</P>
CONTEXT(P(%text) P(%text) %text P(%text) P(%text))
Not a single bit more difficult than
<P>blah<B>blah</B>blah<I>blah</I>blah
You *CANNOT* use <p> as a separator, for the same reason you cannot use
<p> to hatch eggs. It's a containter. Period. Unambigious definition.
Just because HTML in its pre-SGML days used <p> as a separator doesn't
mean it's still happening now.
If you think this was useful information, I'd like to know where you've
been the past 5 years.
Abigail
--
Abigail
September MCMXCIII in <URL: news:l9L+pBAj...@larien.demon.co.uk>:
++ Abigail <abi...@fnx.com> spaketh unto the monastary thusly:
++ >\begin{UI}[LART]
++ >Hmmm. <P> has been a container ever since HTML was formalized. That is,
++ >since 1992 or so.
++ >\end{UI}
++
++ The HTML 3.2 reference doc (from W3) actually states that <P> end tags
++ can be inferred, so you don't need </P>. There's a few other end tags
++ that are optional, as well. Haven't read the 4.0 spec properly yet.
Any endtag that can be inferred is optional, and any optional tag (be it
begin or end) can be inferred. That, and the end tag of P being optional
hasn't changed over all published HTML specs and drafts.
Arthur Hagen
> Just because HTML in its pre-SGML days used <p> as a separator doesn't
> mean it's still happening now.
Scuse me? HTML 4.0 is not SGML-compliant. Which new version of HTML
are you talking about?
--
*Art