Happy New Year!

[Lionel]

Well, at least to everyone at >=GMT/UTC+11. ;^)

--
W
. | , w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^---^---------------------------------------------------------------

[Lionel]

On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 14:36:52 +0000, Roger Burton West wrote:

> Lionel wrote:
>>Well, at least to everyone at >=GMT/UTC+11. ;^)
>

> What, no Y1.965k bug? No end of the world in fire (or ice)? I'm
> disappointed.

I'm here from the future, & I can assure y'all that the world didn't blow
up when we clocked over to 2012.

[mlooney]

Lionel <imag...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> What, no Y1.965k bug? No end of the world in fire (or ice)? I'm
>> disappointed.
>
> I'm here from the future, & I can assure y'all that the world didn't blow
> up when we clocked over to 2012.

I didn't even get gun fire, which I think is a first in about 15 years.
When I was living in the Northside, one year we got not one but two
fully automatic weapons. One a M16 series weapon and one an AK-47
family weapon. We also got the standard shotguns and pistols.


And yes, I can tell an 5.56 NATO from a 7.62x39 weapon by ear.
--
I take one drug to protect myself from myself
The other 3 drugs are to protect you from me.
Please keep this in mind if and when I say I'm off my meds.

[Ralph Wade Phillips]

On 12/31/2011 7:05 AM, Lionel wrote:
> Well, at least to everyone at>=GMT/UTC+11. ;^)
>

Nappy Who Near!

RwP

[Kevin Goebel]

On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 07:03:20 +0000 (UTC), mlooney <mlo...@megawatts.com>
wrote:

>Lionel <imag...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> What, no Y1.965k bug? No end of the world in fire (or ice)? I'm
>>> disappointed.

>> I'm here from the future, & I can assure y'all that the world didn't blow
>> up when we clocked over to 2012.

>I didn't even get gun fire, which I think is a first in about 15 years.
>When I was living in the Northside, one year we got not one but two
>fully automatic weapons. One a M16 series weapon and one an AK-47
>family weapon. We also got the standard shotguns and pistols.

>And yes, I can tell an 5.56 NATO from a 7.62x39 weapon by ear.

That would seem a rather painful method. Have you tried just listening to
the diffence in the sounds instead?

Kevin Goebel

[Lionel]

On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 07:03:20 +0000, mlooney wrote:

> Lionel <imag...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> What, no Y1.965k bug? No end of the world in fire (or ice)? I'm
>>> disappointed.
>>
>> I'm here from the future, & I can assure y'all that the world didn't
>> blow up when we clocked over to 2012.
>
> I didn't even get gun fire, which I think is a first in about 15 years.

Weirdly, someone around the corner from me fired off fireworks on both
xmas eve & NYE, despite the fact that all the fun varieties have been
outlawed here for a long time.

[Lionel]

On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 08:07:17 +0100, Michel wrote:

> On Mon, 2 Jan 2012 16:20:17 +0000 (UTC), Lionel wrote:
>> Weirdly, someone around the corner from me fired off fireworks on both
>> xmas eve & NYE, despite the fact that all the fun varieties have been
>> outlawed here for a long time.
>

> Same here, though that doesn't stop the locals.
>
> I moved earlier this year, so I didn't know what this town did for new
> year yet. I had kind of expected them to put on a good show, seeing as
> there's a distinct group of the kind of people who drive raised Dodge
> Ram pickup trucks[0] around town despite being 20 km from Amsterdam and
> there not being a dirt road within miles. They did not disappoint.

Friends of mine in the deepest, darkest parts of the USA have been
telling me that the locals have been celebrating Afghanistan-style,
firearms into the air.

[Mike Andrews]

Lionel <imag...@gmail.com> wrote in <jdunbm$70n$9...@xen1.xcski.com>:

> On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 08:07:17 +0100, Michel wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 2 Jan 2012 16:20:17 +0000 (UTC), Lionel wrote:
>>> Weirdly, someone around the corner from me fired off fireworks on both
>>> xmas eve & NYE, despite the fact that all the fun varieties have been
>>> outlawed here for a long time.
>>
>> Same here, though that doesn't stop the locals.
>>
>> I moved earlier this year, so I didn't know what this town did for new
>> year yet. I had kind of expected them to put on a good show, seeing as
>> there's a distinct group of the kind of people who drive raised Dodge
>> Ram pickup trucks[0] around town despite being 20 km from Amsterdam and
>> there not being a dirt road within miles. They did not disappoint.
>
> Friends of mine in the deepest, darkest parts of the USA have been
> telling me that the locals have been celebrating Afghanistan-style,
> firearms into the air.

Yep. At least one person took a slug near-vertical downwards into the
head: a boy in California. It apparently missed the most important
structures (eyes, breathing centers, frontal lobes, etc.), and lodged
in his cheek. Damn fools that think guns are harmless noisemakers!

--
Spamming because of serious financial problems is like
yodeling because your cat destroys your furniture.
-- Gary S. Callison, in nanae

[Peter H. Coffin]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 11:04:22 +0000 (UTC), Lionel wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 08:07:17 +0100, Michel wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 2 Jan 2012 16:20:17 +0000 (UTC), Lionel wrote:
>>> Weirdly, someone around the corner from me fired off fireworks on both
>>> xmas eve & NYE, despite the fact that all the fun varieties have been
>>> outlawed here for a long time.
>>
>> Same here, though that doesn't stop the locals.
>>
>> I moved earlier this year, so I didn't know what this town did for new
>> year yet. I had kind of expected them to put on a good show, seeing as
>> there's a distinct group of the kind of people who drive raised Dodge
>> Ram pickup trucks[0] around town despite being 20 km from Amsterdam and
>> there not being a dirt road within miles. They did not disappoint.
>
> Friends of mine in the deepest, darkest parts of the USA have been
> telling me that the locals have been celebrating Afghanistan-style,
> firearms into the air.

You mean, like Detroit? And often, not so much in the air either.
(I've several friends in the area. Their stories are amusing, after the
fact.)

--
I got told by a friend's ex-girlfriend that she could tell I was
a Linux geek from the way I *walked*.
-- Skud

[Maarten Wiltink]

"Michel" <ab...@rubberchicken.nl> wrote in message
news:52mat8-...@rubberchicken.nocrap...
[...]
> [0] Strangest case of His&Hers I've seen in a while: A house with
> both a flat black big wheels tall suspension[1] 80s Big Chevy
> Pickup and a bright yellow Seat Arosa in front of it.
> [1] The needs-a-stepladder kind.

Nah, just *really* high heels.

Tebrgwrf,
Maarten Wiltink

[Joe Thompson]

On 2012-01-03, Michel <ab...@rubberchicken.nl> wrote:
> I moved earlier this year, so I didn't know what this town did for
> new year yet. I had kind of expected them to put on a good show,
> seeing as there's a distinct group of the kind of people who drive
> raised Dodge Ram pickup trucks[0] around town despite being 20 km
> from Amsterdam and there not being a dirt road within miles. They
> did not disappoint.

They have American rednecks in the Netherlands? -- Joe
--
Joe Thompson | Sysadmin - Scientificist
E-mail addresses in headers are valid. | http://www.orion-com.com/
"There is no way my emacs is ever getting a credit card!" -- Matthew Vernon

[mlooney]

Joe Thompson <sp...@orion-com.com> wrote:
> On 2012-01-03, Michel <ab...@rubberchicken.nl> wrote:
>> I moved earlier this year, so I didn't know what this town did for
>> new year yet. I had kind of expected them to put on a good show,
>> seeing as there's a distinct group of the kind of people who drive
>> raised Dodge Ram pickup trucks[0] around town despite being 20 km
>> from Amsterdam and there not being a dirt road within miles. They
>> did not disappoint.
>
> They have American rednecks in the Netherlands? -- Joe

There are rednecks everywhere. Not all of them are American.

People how drive raised Dodge Rams, at least in my part of redneck land
tend to be city rednecks with too much money. Country rednecks drive
Ford F-150 and Chevy trucks, with a small number driving various Asian
made trucks.

[TimC]

On 2012-01-03, Lionel (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

> Friends of mine in the deepest, darkest parts of the USA have been
> telling me that the locals have been celebrating Afghanistan-style,
> firearms into the air.

I'm not surprised. As far as I can tell, the only difference between
the religious nutters in the deep south and the religious nutters in
the middle east are the name of their god and the methods by which
their god smites the other side.

--
TimC
Information wants to be beer, or something like that. --unknown

[Redcat]

On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 22:23:27 +1100, TimC wrote:

> On 2012-01-03, Lionel (aka Bruce)
> was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
>> Friends of mine in the deepest, darkest parts of the USA have been
>> telling me that the locals have been celebrating Afghanistan-style,
>> firearms into the air.

It's not only the deepest, darkest parts of the USA. I moved to the
southwest suburbs of Chicago a couple years ago, and my first July 4 here
was a real eye-opener. Being a gun enthusiast and a sometimes- pyro crew
helper I usually do pretty well at being able to tell fireworks from gun
shots. The loud noises coming from my neighborhood were mostly from
firearms, including a good number coming either from automatic weapons or
from someone with big clips quite skilled at bump-firing.

I was very glad I didn't have any reason to go outside.

New Year's Eve wasn't as bad, but it was still bad enough that I had no
desire to stray from my comfortable chair indoors, down in the basement.

[mlooney]

TimC <tcon...@rather.puzzling.no-spam-accepted-here.org> wrote:
> On 2012-01-03, Lionel (aka Bruce)
> was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
>> Friends of mine in the deepest, darkest parts of the USA have been
>> telling me that the locals have been celebrating Afghanistan-style,
>> firearms into the air.
>
> I'm not surprised. As far as I can tell, the only difference between
> the religious nutters in the deep south and the religious nutters in
> the middle east are the name of their god and the methods by which
> their god smites the other side.

I can assure you it's not just the religious nutters than do the
firearms at new years thing in this part of the world. And I assume
that my part of the world is where Lionel is at least one of the
places he meant.

This may come as a bit of a suprise but most rednecks are not
really all that religious. The ones that are tend to make up
for it, I'll give you that.

[Peter Corlett]

Joe Thompson <sp...@orion-com.com> wrote:
[...]

> They have American rednecks in the Netherlands?

Some of the bikes I've seen in Amsterdam certainly look like the kind of
thing a redneck would own. I suspect there are even bikes with gun racks in
the scummier corners of the Netherlands.

[John F. Eldredge]

On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 15:30:42 +0000, abuse wrote:

> On 2012-01-03, Mike Andrews <mi...@mikea.ath.cx> wrote:
>> Lionel <imag...@gmail.com> wrote in <jdunbm$70n$9...@xen1.xcski.com>:
>>> On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 08:07:17 +0100, Michel wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 2 Jan 2012 16:20:17 +0000 (UTC), Lionel wrote:
>>>>> Weirdly, someone around the corner from me fired off fireworks on
>>>>> both xmas eve & NYE, despite the fact that all the fun varieties
>>>>> have been outlawed here for a long time.
>>>>
>>>> Same here, though that doesn't stop the locals.
>>>>
>>>> I moved earlier this year, so I didn't know what this town did for
>>>> new year yet. I had kind of expected them to put on a good show,
>>>> seeing as there's a distinct group of the kind of people who drive
>>>> raised Dodge Ram pickup trucks[0] around town despite being 20 km
>>>> from Amsterdam and there not being a dirt road within miles. They did
>>>> not disappoint.
>>>
>>> Friends of mine in the deepest, darkest parts of the USA have been
>>> telling me that the locals have been celebrating Afghanistan-style,
>>> firearms into the air.
>>
>> Yep. At least one person took a slug near-vertical downwards into the
>> head: a boy in California. It apparently missed the most important
>> structures (eyes, breathing centers, frontal lobes, etc.), and lodged
>> in his cheek.
>

> Would have to be a very heavy slug and/or a very soft skull to damage
> any lobes and centers. I once got to see a re-welded shoulder-mounted
> recoilless rifle, that would've done it. (Didn't *play* with it because
> if we had any gunpowder, I would not want to be within blast radius of
> that re-welded seam between the barrel and the chamber.)
>
>
> Dima

I read a news report today about a 12-year-old boy in western Florida who
is in critical condition, having been shot in the top of the head on New
Year's Eve by a bullet apparently fired into the air some distance away.
His father didn't hear any nearby gunfire. No word yet about the caliber
of the bullet.

--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly
is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

[Julian Macassey]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 22:23:27 +1100, TimC
<tcon...@rather.puzzling.no-spam-accepted-here.org> wrote:
>
> I'm not surprised. As far as I can tell, the only difference between
> the religious nutters in the deep south and the religious nutters in
> the middle east are the name of their god and the methods by which
> their god smites the other side.

The same god under different names alas.

[David Taylor]

On 2012-01-04, Roger Burton West <roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:

> Peter Corlett wrote:
>>Some of the bikes I've seen in Amsterdam certainly look like the kind of
>>thing a redneck would own. I suspect there are even bikes with gun racks in
>>the scummier corners of the Netherlands.
>

> Have you seen "Pimp My Fahrrad"? (Yes, it's German. It's also... odd.)

For some reason my brain is suggesting "Pimp Mein Führer".

I think it needs a(nother) holiday.

--
David Taylor

[LP]

On 2012-01-04, David Taylor <davidt...@yadt.co.uk> wrote:
> On 2012-01-04, Roger Burton West <roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:
>> Peter Corlett wrote:
>>>Some of the bikes I've seen in Amsterdam certainly look like the kind of
>>>thing a redneck would own. I suspect there are even bikes with gun racks in
>>>the scummier corners of the Netherlands.
>>
>> Have you seen "Pimp My Fahrrad"? (Yes, it's German. It's also... odd.)
>
> For some reason my brain is suggesting "Pimp Mein Führer".

My brain was suggesting "Pimp my Farad" - quite how one pimps a capacitor[1]
I'm really not sure.

-Paul
[1] I first typed condenser. I think I've been reading too much material
about early automatic telephony. I'll be using c/s instead of Hz next.
--
http://paulseward.com

[Niklas Karlsson]

On 2012-01-04, Roger Burton West <roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:

> Heretic!
>
> (Everyone's a heretic, in his own way...)

My odd state of mind made me read 'heuristic'. Then I went back and saw
what it actually said, and came up with the following term.

heuretic: n. experience-based technique for offending religious fanatics

Unfortunately I see that the word already has a different definition.

Niklas
--
The company keeps a helpdesk to allow staff to vent certain excess
pressures by ranting, just as other excess pressures are vented thanks
to the company installing toilets. Generally the toilets last longer.
-- Anthony de Boer

[Peter Corlett]

LP <use...@lpbk.net> wrote:
[...]

> My brain was suggesting "Pimp my Farad" - quite how one pimps a
> capacitor[1] I'm really not sure.

Start here: http://hackaday.com/

[Peter Corlett]

David Taylor <davidt...@yadt.co.uk> wrote:
[...]

> For some reason my brain is suggesting "Pimp Mein Führer".

I'll tell you why. The British education system's history syllabus and all
of the "history" channels on Sky are all fixated on the Second World War, so
it's no surprise that many people never have it far from their mind.

Me, I found history boring at school, mainly because there was a nagging
feeling that something might have happened before 1939 or after 1945, and I
got shot of my TV in disgust a number of years ago. So I'm blissfully
unaware of the minutiae. Isn't it enough to know that it must not happen
again without continuously banging on about it?

Interestingly, the history of our own careers started in the middle of the
war and helped Britain win it, but our schools never bothered telling us
*that*, did they? (Well, OK, it wasn't fully declassified until I had
finished school, but at least some of it was already public when I was still
a wee nipper.)

[Peter Corlett]

Roger Burton West <roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:

[...]

> Have you seen "Pimp My Fahrrad"? (Yes, it's German. It's also... odd.)

I duck duck went and found a video. What I saw was a German youth with a
pushbike, waving around a Confederate flag, with a number plate on his bike.
Very odd.

Do bikes need to be registered in Germany?

[Zebee Johnstone]

In alt.sysadmin.recovery on Wed, 4 Jan 2012 16:02:11 +0000 (UTC)

Roger Burton West <roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:
>

> Hang on, you're not _that_ far from me in age. But my school history
> started bogging down around the Napoleonic era, then got slower and more
> boring and finally petered out somewhere around 1870. I'm interested in
> WWII (among other eras) in part because I _didn't_ grow up being
> lectured about it...

Mine spent a big chunk of time around exploration and gold rush,
so the late 1800s (1879 to 1900 for or less), then came WW1 which
consisted entirely of the heroic Aussies at Gallipoli and the 10th
Light horse at Damascus.

After that, Nothing Happened until the heroic Aussies in New Guinea
during WW2, then history stopped.

Nothing about Federation because that was the Evil Eastern States
pushing themselves on poor WA, nothing about the Depression, or
the big postwar immigration boom (which again was mostly Eastern
Stater stuff I guess) or White Australia policy (probably because at
the time WA couldn't believe that had been dismantled so it was just
HOw Things Were and why talk about it).

The non-Western-Australian Australian history I know I learned from folk songs.

Everywhere has its biases but the more isolated the place the more
obvious they are when you get out of the joint.

Zebee

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <slrnjg982m...@gmail.com>,

Zebee Johnstone <zeb...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Mine spent a big chunk of time around exploration and gold rush,
>so the late 1800s (1879 to 1900 for or less), then came WW1 which
>consisted entirely of the heroic Aussies at Gallipoli and the 10th
>Light horse at Damascus.
>
>After that, Nothing Happened until the heroic Aussies in New Guinea
>during WW2, then history stopped.

High-school history for me was fairly conventional: one year of
European History (essentially classical period through the
Renaissance), one year of American History (1605-1945), and one year
of contemporary world events (1945-present). We had a break sophomore
year for "Russian and Asian Studies", which I think was a pet course
one of the history teachers; that covered Russia, China, and Japan,
with occasional side discussions about India (then still regarded as a
basket case) and southeast Asia (then still regarded as a place to
lose wars). Modern European history was mainly taught as how we went
over there and saved their bacon.

In college, I took (as an elective) American History, 1605-1865; I
could have taken the followup course (1865-1945) the next term, but
chose instead to do a history of science course taught by the
historian-of-science who worked at STScI. (The text was Koyre's _From
the Closed World to the Infinite Universe_.)

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

[Wojciech Derechowski]

On 2012-01-04, Garrett Wollman <wol...@bimajority.org> wrote:
> High-school history for me was fairly conventional:

Mine was not a history per se but rather historical materialism; class struggle
all over the place beginning in Egypt, Mesopotamia and Greece in particular;
later, a lot of imperialism of Rome, France, Britain, Prussia, Japan and the
US but not Russia or the USSR.

Ten centuries of our history had a moral or two: (i) forget the T-Rex, nobody
have done more damage to the world then the Polish, and (ii), the favorite
tactics of the Poles was always fighting the overwhelming force of the enemy.

WD
--
Who is Entscheidungs and what is his problem?

[Alexander Schreiber]

Push bikes? No. If there is a license plate on a push bike in .de, then
it is there for fun & giggles or whatever reason the owner came up with.

Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

[Joe Thompson]

On 2012-01-04, Roger Burton West <roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:

> Hang on, you're not _that_ far from me in age. But my school history
> started bogging down around the Napoleonic era, then got slower and more
> boring and finally petered out somewhere around 1870. I'm interested in
> WWII (among other eras) in part because I _didn't_ grow up being
> lectured about it...

We got Virginia History early on in school, starting with the founding
of Roanoke and Jamestown, then on through the Civil War which was the
last time Virginia was a power in its own right. Lower-grade US History
was basically the Revolution through the Civil War, fifty years of not
much, WWI, the Roaring Twenties and the Depression, WWII, and usually
tailed off just before Vietnam (I was in fifth or sixth grade before I
really knew about the Korean War or that we lost Vietnam).

High-school US history was a *completely* different beast -- mostly
because I took the AP class and the teacher who taught it was a drill
sergeant on the subject of justifying your argument. Cite, cite, cite,
cite, *from memory* and God help you if you trotted out the old canards
about how the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery. I learned more
about expository writing in that class than I ever learned in English.

AP US History was chock-full of primary sources and covered a lot of
things in a lot more detail than previously -- we read Bury My Heart At
Wounded Knee and A Rumor of War (with comprehensive discussion of both
the relevant wars), really dug into the sectarian issues both before and
after the Civil War, covered a lot about the labor movement and the
McCarthy era, and just generally really bit off whacking great hunks of
American history that had never been served up to us in any quantity. I
think we made it all the way up to Reagan in that one -- not bad since
that was 1992 so that got us up into own-recent-memory territory. -- Joe

[Shmuel Metz]

In <je1r15$hri$1...@mooli.org.uk>, on 01/04/2012

at 03:25 PM, ab...@mooli.org.uk (Peter Corlett) said:

>Interestingly, the history of our own careers started in the middle
>of the war

Which war? Or aren't you counting Babbage?

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <http://patriot.net/~shmuel> ISO position
Reply to domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+bspfh to contact me.
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

[Shmuel Metz]

In <je27uu$1b2i$1...@grapevine.csail.mit.edu>, on 01/04/2012

at 07:06 PM, wol...@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) said:

>Modern European history was mainly taught as how we went over there
>and saved their bacon.

Did it teach about how we helped Germany rearm before we finally
entered WW II?

[stevo]

Niklas Karlsson <ank...@yahoo.se> wrote:
> On 2012-01-04, Roger Burton West <roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:
>> Julian Macassey wrote:
>>>On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 22:23:27 +1100, TimC
>>><tcon...@rather.puzzling.no-spam-accepted-here.org> wrote:
>>>> As far as I can tell, the only difference between
>>>> the religious nutters in the deep south and the religious nutters in
>>>> the middle east are the name of their god and the methods by which
>>>> their god smites the other side.
>>> The same god under different names alas.
>>
>> Heretic!
>>
>> (Everyone's a heretic, in his own way...)
>
> My odd state of mind made me read 'heuristic'. Then I went back and saw
> what it actually said, and came up with the following term.
>
> heuretic: n. experience-based technique for offending religious fanatics
>
> Unfortunately I see that the word already has a different definition.
>

This is English we're talking about. If a word doesn't already have half
a dozen different meanings it's just not trying hard enough.

--
Stevo st...@madcelt.org

[Seebs]

On 2012-01-05, stevo <st...@madcelt.org> wrote:
> This is English we're talking about. If a word doesn't already have half
> a dozen different meanings it's just not trying hard enough.

And if it doesn't refer to at least one primary or secondary sexual
characteristic, or sexual act, people aren't trying it hard enough.

-s
--
Copyright 2011, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / usenet...@seebs.net
http://www.seebs.net/log/ <-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!
I am not speaking for my employer, although they do rent some of my opinions.

[stevo]

Being of a similar age as Zebee, and having also gone through the .wa.au
school system, I got the same thing.

Although in my case I was pushed in to the Physics/Chem/Maths stream in
our school, so I stopped doing History in Year 10[1]. This would have
something to do with my interest in History, particularly non .au-ian
History these days.



[1] Year I turned 15

--
Stevo st...@madcelt.org

[Joe Zeff]

On Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:56:34 +0000, Joe Thompson wrote:

> we lost Vietnam

Most of us who were Over There prefer to say that Congress and the Anti-
War movement threw away everything we'd fought for. You do know, I hope,
that neither the VC nor the NVA ever defeated the US in the field. Every
offensive they tried while we were there resulted in an expensive defeat
for them, partly because their generals were remarkably inept when it
came to tactics and kept trying Chinese-style human wave assaults against
an enemy who was dug in, with lots of ammunition and access to both shore
bombardment and air strikes to support them.

--
Joe Zeff -- The Guy With The Sideburns:
http://www.zeff.us http://www.lasfs.info
*Disclaimer: following the above advice constitutes
your consent to be classified under the clinical
definition of moron.

[John F. Eldredge]

Fortunately, this boy's condition has improved somewhat, according to
today's news. He reportedly opened his eyes today, and moved his legs a
little. His brain is still swollen, so the doctors haven't been able to
remove the bullet as yet.

[Mike Andrews]

Joe Zeff <the.guy.with....@lasfs.info> wrote in <4f04f169$0$30366$a826...@newsreader.readnews.com>:

> On Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:56:34 +0000, Joe Thompson wrote:
>
>> we lost Vietnam
>
> Most of us who were Over There prefer to say that Congress and the Anti-
> War movement threw away everything we'd fought for. You do know, I hope,
> that neither the VC nor the NVA ever defeated the US in the field. Every
> offensive they tried while we were there resulted in an expensive defeat
> for them, partly because their generals were remarkably inept when it
> came to tactics and kept trying Chinese-style human wave assaults against
> an enemy who was dug in, with lots of ammunition and access to both shore
> bombardment and air strikes to support them.

<STRONG> A O L </STRONG>

And Lyndon Baines Johnson, as President, was among the worst when it came
to giving North Vietnam time to re-arm and rebuild before letting us go in
and try once again. I have seen brave men weep as they read orders that the
USAF was to stand down after a successful air assault. I have seen it over
and over again.

I never got to see Charlie on the ground, but my friends who did have told
me that higher HQ kept tying the hands of the troops in the field.

We didn't lose that war; incompetent managers *GAVE* it away.

--
Bernard: Shall I file it?
Hacker: Shred it! No one must ever be able to find it again!
Bernard: In that case, Minister, I think it's best I file it.

[Wojciech Derechowski]

On 2012-01-04, Joe Thompson <sp...@orion-com.com> wrote:
> Cite, cite, cite,
> cite, *from memory* and God help you if you trotted out the old canards
> about how the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery.

That war is called a Secession War in .pl. Is this correct, or was it fought
over another issue, different than just the revolt against the federal
government?

[Peter Corlett]

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote:
> ab...@mooli.org.uk (Peter Corlett) said:
>> Interestingly, the history of our own careers started in the middle of
>> the war
> Which war? Or aren't you counting Babbage?

Babbage pioneered IT management, in that the project consumed vast amounts
of cash, the specification kept changing as he had new ideas, and ultimately
failed to deliver.

On the other hand, Turing managed to scrape together a load of scavenged
supplies to knock together something that worked and solved the problem, and
was rewarded by being arrested and castrated.

Which of these feels most like your career?

[Wojciech Derechowski]

That is precisely what I thought, only in much better English. Do you care
to comment on lady Ada?

[David Scheidt]

Wojciech Derechowski <wdd...@um5000.mystora.com> wrote:

:On 2012-01-04, Joe Thompson <sp...@orion-com.com> wrote:
:> Cite, cite, cite,
:> cite, *from memory* and God help you if you trotted out the old canards
:> about how the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery.

:That war is called a Secession War in .pl. Is this correct, or was it fought
:over another issue, different than just the revolt against the federal
:government?

It was about the right of rich white men to own other people, and kill,
starve, and mutilate the people they can't own becuase they've got the
right skin color. Southern history deniers tend to like to pretend it
was about nobler things, but their either ignorant, deluded, or plain
lying.


--
sig 117

[Niklas Karlsson]

On 2012-01-05, Peter Corlett <ab...@mooli.org.uk> wrote:

Damn it. Squeezing that into McQ compliance is going to take some work.

Niklas
--
Here in the US, we are so schizoid and deeply opposed to government
censorship that we insist on having unaccountable private parties
to do it instead.
-- Bill Cole

[mrob...@att.net]

Niklas Karlsson <ank...@yahoo.se> wrote:
> On 2012-01-05, Peter Corlett <ab...@mooli.org.uk> wrote:
>> Babbage pioneered IT management, in that the project consumed vast
>> amounts of cash, the specification kept changing as he had new ideas,
>> and ultimately failed to deliver.
>>
>> On the other hand, Turing managed to scrape together a load of
>> scavenged supplies to knock together something that worked and solved
>> the problem, and was rewarded by being arrested and castrated.
>>
>> Which of these feels most like your career?
>
> Damn it. Squeezing that into McQ compliance is going to take some work.

How about this:

Babbage pioneered IT management: his project took vast sums of cash, the spec
kept changing, and it ultimately failed to deliver. Turing scavenged supplies
and knocked together something that worked and solved the problem - reward?
Arrest and castration. Which one feels most like your career? -- Peter Corlett

Matt Roberds

[Shmuel Metz]

In <4f04f169$0$30366$a826...@newsreader.readnews.com>, on 01/05/2012

at 12:40 AM, Joe Zeff <the.guy.with....@lasfs.info> said:

>On Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:56:34 +0000, Joe Thompson wrote:

>> we lost Vietnam

>Most of us who were Over There prefer to say that Congress and the

>Anti-War movement threw away everything we'd fought for.

When I was on active duty, I talked to a lot of soldiers that had been
there; what they told me was that they didn't know why they were there
and had been concerned only with coming back intact, not with winning
the war. I'd say that we threw away our opportunity in Viet Nam when
we helped the French back in instead of accepting Ho's invitation, and
that once out we should have stayed out.

Of course, it didn't help that we had corrupt generals like
westmoreland, and some secretaries of defense about whom I can't speak
too highly.

>You do know, I hope,
>that neither the VC nor the NVA ever defeated the US in the field.

"We have met the enemy and he is us" (Walt Kelley)

[Wojciech Derechowski]

On 2012-01-05, David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
> Wojciech Derechowski <wdd...@um5000.mystora.com> wrote:
>:On 2012-01-04, Joe Thompson <sp...@orion-com.com> wrote:
>:> Cite, cite, cite,
>:> cite, *from memory* and God help you if you trotted out the old canards
>:> about how the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery.
>
>:That war is called a Secession War in .pl. Is this correct, or was it fought
>:over another issue, different than just the revolt against the federal
>:government?
>
> It was about the right of rich white men to own other people, and kill,
> starve, and mutilate the people they can't own becuase they've got the
> right skin color.

I am sorry, which color is that?

> Southern history deniers tend to like to pretend it
> was about nobler things, but their either ignorant, deluded, or plain
> lying.

You mean parroting, right?

[Joe Thompson]

On 2012-01-05, Wojciech Derechowski <wdd...@um5000.mystora.com> wrote:
> On 2012-01-04, Joe Thompson <sp...@orion-com.com> wrote:
>> Cite, cite, cite,
>> cite, *from memory* and God help you if you trotted out the old canards
>> about how the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery.
>
> That war is called a Secession War in .pl. Is this correct, or was it fought
> over another issue, different than just the revolt against the federal
> government?

The Civil War was fought over the relative political power of the South
vs. the North, tax regimes, economics, and legal issues -- all of which
were the direct result of slavery. Despite the fact that various states
cited preserving slavery as a reason *in their secession declarations*,
from about 1950 on there has been a concerted effort to focus on the
proximate causes and ignore what they arose from.

It's rather like someone remarking that he left a room because it was
too warm and he couldn't see very well, but studiously avoiding
mentioning that the room was in fact on fire at the time. -- Joe

[Wojciech Derechowski]

On 2012-01-05, Joe Thompson <sp...@orion-com.com> wrote:
> from about 1950 on there has been a concerted effort to focus on the
> proximate causes and ignore what they arose from.

And then Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. is assassinated in 68.

[Wojciech Derechowski]

Babbage: IT management. Turing: hacking. Rings any bells?

[Paul Colquhoun]

Another recent occurrence is:
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/guns/stray-bullet-kills-amish-teen-15-miles-away
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/amish-teen-killed-by-stray-bullet/2011/12/20/gIQAicrj7O_video.html
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/12/amish-teens-death-ruled-a-homcide-in-ohio/1

Although it just says "fired into the air", so it may not have been
vertically. On the other hand, it was a muzzle loader.


--
Reverend Paul Colquhoun, ULC. http://andor.dropbear.id.au/~paulcol
Asking for technical help in newsgroups? Read this first:
http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#intro

[mlooney]

David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
> It was about the right of rich white men to own other people, and kill,
> starve, and mutilate the people they can't own becuase they've got the
> right skin color. Southern history deniers tend to like to pretend it
> was about nobler things, but their either ignorant, deluded, or plain
> lying.

s/white men/white men and selected Indian tribes/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_Watie

Yes, the Cherokee had slaves. They walked the Trail of Tears with
their masters.

Some of the Cherokee are still being dicks about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherokee_Freedmen_Controversy

--
I take one drug to protect myself from myself
The other 3 drugs are to protect you from me.
Please keep this in mind if and when I say I'm off my meds.

[David Gersic]

On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 19:51:23 -0600, Mike Andrews <mi...@mikea.ath.cx> wrote:
> We didn't lose that war; incompetent managers *GAVE* it away.

I'm the wrong age to have been involved in that one, but reading
A Better War, by Sorley:
<http://www.amazon.com/Better-War-Unexamined-Victories-Americas/dp/B003IWYJNG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1325825337&sr=8-1>
last year was interesting and you might like it if you haven't read it
already.

[Kevin Goebel]

On Thu, 5 Jan 2012 18:00:13 +0000 (UTC), Joe Thompson <sp...@orion-com.com>
wrote:

>On 2012-01-05, Wojciech Derechowski <wdd...@um5000.mystora.com> wrote:
>> On 2012-01-04, Joe Thompson <sp...@orion-com.com> wrote:
>>> Cite, cite, cite,
>>> cite, *from memory* and God help you if you trotted out the old canards
>>> about how the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery.
>>
>> That war is called a Secession War in .pl. Is this correct, or was it fought
>> over another issue, different than just the revolt against the federal
>> government?
>
>The Civil War was fought over the relative political power of the South
>vs. the North, tax regimes, economics, and legal issues -- all of which
>were the direct result of slavery. Despite the fact that various states
>cited preserving slavery as a reason *in their secession declarations*,
>from about 1950 on there has been a concerted effort to focus on the
>proximate causes and ignore what they arose from.
>
>It's rather like someone remarking that he left a room because it was
>too warm and he couldn't see very well, but studiously avoiding
>mentioning that the room was in fact on fire at the time. -- Joe

The real politial damage done by the U.S. Civil War was the mushrooming
growth of the Federal government. The entire country lost strength in states
rights due to the greed of the Confederacy and the belligerence of the other
states.

Kevin Goebel

[Kevin Goebel]

On 05 Jan 2012 00:40:10 GMT, Joe Zeff

<the.guy.with....@lasfs.info> wrote:

>On Wed, 04 Jan 2012 21:56:34 +0000, Joe Thompson wrote:
>
>> we lost Vietnam
>
>Most of us who were Over There prefer to say that Congress and the Anti-
>War movement threw away everything we'd fought for. You do know, I hope,
>that neither the VC nor the NVA ever defeated the US in the field. Every
>offensive they tried while we were there resulted in an expensive defeat
>for them, partly because their generals were remarkably inept when it
>came to tactics and kept trying Chinese-style human wave assaults against
>an enemy who was dug in, with lots of ammunition and access to both shore
>bombardment and air strikes to support them.

I graduated in 1973, and was issued a draft number, but I and others were
lucky in that Nixon fullfilled his promise to get out of Viet Nam to get
re-elected. I never had any animosity against the soldiers that served, but
plenty for the politicians and military–industrial complex they were in bed
with.

America lost the Viet Nam War because of the politicians that were elected
who decided America should go in there to begin with, as well as the
half-assed methods by which it was fought.

We lost the 2nd Iraqi war due to the faulty decisions made by the
politicians who decided it was justified by 9-11.

We will lose in Afghanistan because there is nothing there to win and no way
to win.

The politicans and military leaders who argued for going into Afghanistan
should be parachuted into Afghanistan naked after having a representation of
Allah tattooed on their chests and "I heart Porky Pig" tattooed on their
asses.

Kevin Goebel

[Julian Macassey]

On Fri, 06 Jan 2012 22:59:13 -0600, Kevin Goebel
<kevi...@kevingoebel.com> wrote:
>
> We will lose in Afghanistan because there is nothing there to win and no way
> to win.
>
> The politicans and military leaders who argued for going into Afghanistan
> should be parachuted into Afghanistan naked after having a representation of
> Allah tattooed on their chests and "I heart Porky Pig" tattooed on their
> asses.

One of my fave Afghan jokes told to me by an Afghan as we
drove to Khost.

A Russian, American and Afghan are having a chat about
how many buckets of water they each could carry.

The American said: "No man can carry more than two
buckets, one in each hand."

"That is nothing," says the Russian, "Any comrade can
carry three buckets. One in each hand and one held with his
teeth."

"Useless dogs," says the Afghan, "Five buckets is easy
for an Afghan."

"Five buckets?" Exclaim the Russian and American.

"No problem,: says the Afghan. "One in my left hand, one
in my right hand, and the Russian on the end of my cock."



--
They hate our freedoms -- our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech,
our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other.
- G W Bush September 20th, 2001

[Shmuel Metz]

In <mcbfg7539gv555f10...@4ax.com>, on 01/06/2012

at 10:59 PM, Kevin Goebel <kevi...@kevingoebel.com> said:

>The politicans and military leaders who argued for going into
>Afghanistan should be parachuted into Afghanistan naked after having
>a representation of Allah tattooed on their chests and "I heart Porky
>Pig" tattooed on their asses.

Going into Afghanistan wasn't a bad decision. Going in without proper
planning and without adequate troop levels was.

[Kevin Goebel]

On Sat, 07 Jan 2012 18:14:36 -0500, Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
<spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote:

>In <mcbfg7539gv555f10...@4ax.com>, on 01/06/2012
> at 10:59 PM, Kevin Goebel <kevi...@kevingoebel.com> said:

>>The politicans and military leaders who argued for going into
>>Afghanistan should be parachuted into Afghanistan naked after having
>>a representation of Allah tattooed on their chests and "I heart Porky
>>Pig" tattooed on their asses.

>Going into Afghanistan wasn't a bad decision. Going in without proper
>planning and without adequate troop levels was.

What reasonable objective could we achieve there? When an outside force
isn't trying to subjugate them, they fight amongst themselves.

What influence could American alcohol-swilling, pork-eating infidels who not
only don't treat their women like dogs, but let them serve in the military,
have on a culture that prefers internal warfare to progress. The Americans,
tasked not to offend the Afghanis by eating a BLT or ham sandwich, are going
to change a culture that survived attempts by the British and Soviet
empires?

We aren't going to destroy entire villages, sow the country with mines
disguised as toys, imprison, torture and kill their religious and civic
leaders. We aren't going to convince them to grow popcorn instead of
poppies.

I can't think of a proper plan (including a reasonable objective worth the
cost in lives and money) that invading Afghanistan would accomplish.

According to Wiki articles:

"As of November 30, 2011, there have been 1,805 American fatalities in the
war in Afghanistan. More than 1,455 of these casualties have been the result
of hostile action."

"Also, as of November 30, 2011, 14,969 additional American servicemembers
have been wounded in action during the war."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Forces_casualties_in_the_war_in_Afghanistan

There have been about 1000 deaths of other Coalition member soldiers as
well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_casualties_in_Afghanistan

The cost of the war reportedly was a major factor as U.S. officials
considered drawing down troops in 2011. A March 2011 Congressional Research
Service report notes the following about Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF)
Afghanistan:

1) following the Afghanistan surge announcement in 2009, Defense Department
spending on Afghanistan has increased 50%, going from $4.4 billion to $6.7
billion a month. During that time, troop strength has gone from 44,000 to
84,000, and it is expected to be at 102,000 for fiscal year 2011;

2) The total operational cost for Afghanistan from the beginning of the
conflict in 2001 through 2006 only slightly exceeds the amount spent in 2010
alone – $93.8 billion. The projected total cost relating to Afghanistan from
inception to the fiscal year 2011 is expected to be $468 billion. The
estimate for the cost of deploying one U.S. soldier in Afghanistan is over
US$1 million dollars a year.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_%282001%E2%80%93present%29#Cost_of_war


Shmuel, I'd like to hear your ideas on any reasonable objectives/goals we
might have achieved in Afghanistan without such high costs. I can't think of
any.

Kevin Goebel

[c...@nospam.netunix.com]

Gallian <gal...@linuxmail.org> wrote:
> > What reasonable objective could we achieve there? When an outside force
> > isn't trying to subjugate them, they fight amongst themselves.
> >
> > What influence could American alcohol-swilling, pork-eating infidels who not
> > only don't treat their women like dogs, but let them serve in the military,
> > have on a culture that prefers internal warfare to progress.
>

> Do you realise just how much like an ignorant racist you sound?

Sod all to do with race, ITYM culturalist.

--
From the quill of Chris Newport g4jci.

[E.P.Sporgersi]

On Sat, 07 Jan 2012 18:08:15 +0000, abuse wrote:

> I think climate change and not losing $war should be in TFFAQ: gnu
> control floor numbering public transport global warming vietnam war
> Hitler Hitler Hitler.

We didn't start the fire... It was always burning since the world was
turning.

[Joe Zeff]

On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:37:02 -0600, Kevin Goebel wrote:

> We aren't going to convince them to grow popcorn instead of
> poppies.

No, because popcorn isn't as profitable as poppies. What we'd need would
be a crop that grows well in Afghanistan and brings in at least as much
cash as opium if not more. Is there such a crop? I don't know.

--
Joe Zeff -- The Guy With The Sideburns:
http://www.zeff.us http://www.lasfs.info
A little bit of back-dated documentation goes a long way.

[Julian Macassey]

On 08 Jan 2012 18:57:14 GMT, Joe Zeff

<the.guy.with....@lasfs.info> wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:37:02 -0600, Kevin Goebel wrote:
>
>> We aren't going to convince them to grow popcorn instead of
>> poppies.
>
> No, because popcorn isn't as profitable as poppies. What we'd need would
> be a crop that grows well in Afghanistan and brings in at least as much
> cash as opium if not more. Is there such a crop? I don't know.

What's wrong with poppies? They have been growing them
there for centuries.

They used to grow a fair amount of grapes there. So they
could get back in to grapes and along with the sugar cane
they grow there, they could really be in the demon rum business.


--
"If we leave Iraq there will be chaos, there will be genocide, and
they will follow us home," - John McCain April 26 2007

[Seebs]

On 2012-01-08, c...@NOSPAM.netunix.com <c...@NOSPAM.netunix.com> wrote:
> Sod all to do with race, ITYM culturalist.

The word "racist" does not actually turn out to strictly require that the
boundary condition be a biologically identifiable boundary.

In part, this is because racists are quite good at carving out exceptions --
they can hate blacks, but consider blacks with college degrees to not REALLY
be black.

-s
--
Copyright 2011, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / usenet...@seebs.net
http://www.seebs.net/log/ <-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!
I am not speaking for my employer, although they do rent some of my opinions.

[Shmuel Metz]

In <j0jig7pg3oe06a2iv...@4ax.com>, on 01/08/2012

at 02:37 AM, Kevin Goebel <kevi...@kevingoebel.com> said:

>What reasonable objective could we achieve there?

Taking out al queda. Of course, the shrub let them slip through our
fingers.

>Shmuel, I'd like to hear your ideas on any reasonable
>objectives/goals we might have achieved in Afghanistan without such
>high costs.

See above. There's a difference between going in and stauing in for
years.

[Kevin Goebel]

On Sun, 8 Jan 2012 12:14:14 +0000 (UTC), c...@NOSPAM.netunix.com wrote:

>Gallian <gal...@linuxmail.org> wrote:
>> > What reasonable objective could we achieve there? When an outside force
>> > isn't trying to subjugate them, they fight amongst themselves.

>> > What influence could American alcohol-swilling, pork-eating infidels who not
>> > only don't treat their women like dogs, but let them serve in the military,
>> > have on a culture that prefers internal warfare to progress.

>> Do you realise just how much like an ignorant racist you sound?

I apologize if you're a wine-sipping BLT-and-women-loving American. I didn't
mean to offend you.

>Sod all to do with race, ITYM culturalist.

I'll plead guilty to having a culturalist opinion about the majority of
Afghani citizens. I believe they are fundamentalist/radical Muslims who wish
to continue to follow the Koran literally, interpreting every passage which
lets them insist that women be subservient to men.

http://www.state.gov/www/global/women/fs_980310_women_afghan.html

The despicable behavior of Muslim fundamentalists is not limited to
Afghanistan. Have you read the autobiography of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, titled
"Infidel"? It was an inside look at Fundamental Islamic behavior from the
very bottom - a Somalia-born Muslim woman. She is quite intelligent and was
born into a society that denied her the right to make use of her brains and
sexually mutilated her.

Afghanistan is largely a collection of internecine feudal tribes. Incursions
by major nations in the last couple of centuries have not changed that and I
don't think the US invasion will either.

I'm not saying all Muslims are fundamentalists, and I realize Islam has had
positive influences on the world during its history. If Europe hadn't picked
up the Hindu numbering system and concept of zero from trade with Arabs,
Western mathematical research might have been significantly delayed. I'd
really hate to have to do ip addresses in Roman numerals (especially
ip.vVI).

Kevin Goebel

[Joe Zeff]

On Mon, 09 Jan 2012 02:58:02 -0600, Kevin Goebel wrote:

> Afghanistan is largely a collection of internecine feudal tribes.
> Incursions by major nations in the last couple of centuries have not
> changed that and I don't think the US invasion will either.

I've heard it said that the only thing that will unite the Afghans is the
presence of foreign soldiers in Afghanistan. Then, the tribes unite
(more or less) to throw the foreigners out after which they go back to
fighting each other.

--
Joe Zeff -- The Guy With The Sideburns:
http://www.zeff.us http://www.lasfs.info

Things are always darkest just before they turn on the lights.

[Joe Zeff]

On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 19:09:24 +0000, Julian Macassey wrote:

> They used to grow a fair amount of grapes there. So they
> could get back in to grapes and along with the sugar cane they grow
> there, they could really be in the demon rum business.

Interesting. And, if they don't like the idea of making booze, they can
always export the grapes and cane and let the buyers do whatever they
want with them.

--
Joe Zeff -- The Guy With The Sideburns:
http://www.zeff.us http://www.lasfs.info

Sounds a bit like Apple's iPrint Shuffle: you press a button and it
prints something somewhere at random.

[Zebee Johnstone]

In alt.sysadmin.recovery on Mon, 09 Jan 2012 02:58:02 -0600

Kevin Goebel <kevi...@kevingoebel.com> wrote:
>
> I'll plead guilty to having a culturalist opinion about the majority of
> Afghani citizens. I believe they are fundamentalist/radical Muslims who wish
> to continue to follow the Koran literally, interpreting every passage which
> lets them insist that women be subservient to men.

s/Afghani/American
s/Muslims/Christians/
s/Koran/Bible

There you go.

Better shoot the lot of 'em.

Zebee

[Mike Andrews]

Joe Zeff <the.guy.with....@lasfs.info> wrote in <4f0abdfb$0$21345$ec3e...@unlimited.usenetmonster.com>:

> On Mon, 09 Jan 2012 02:58:02 -0600, Kevin Goebel wrote:
>
>> Afghanistan is largely a collection of internecine feudal tribes.
>> Incursions by major nations in the last couple of centuries have not
>> changed that and I don't think the US invasion will either.
>
> I've heard it said that the only thing that will unite the Afghans is the
> presence of foreign soldiers in Afghanistan. Then, the tribes unite
> (more or less) to throw the foreigners out after which they go back to
> fighting each other.

"Me against my brother.
My brother and I against our father.
My father and his sons against our uncle.
Our family against other families.
All of us against outsiders."

Or something rather close to that, IIRC.

--
JUDGE MILWYN JARMAN: "It is quite a rare thing for a barrister not to
know what his brief fee is ...."
-- Jopling, R (on the application of) v Child Maintenance and
Enforcement Commission [2010] EWHC 1623 (Admin) (29 January 2010)

[Peter Corlett]

Kevin Goebel <kevin@at@kevingoebel.dot.com> wrote:
[...]

> I'll plead guilty to having a culturalist opinion about the majority of
> Afghani citizens. I believe they are fundamentalist/radical Muslims who
> wish to continue to follow the Koran literally, interpreting every passage
> which lets them insist that women be subservient to men.

I just love the irony of Americans complaining about foreign theocracies.

[John Burnham]

On Mon, 09 Jan 2012 16:13:33 +0000, abuse wrote:

> OTOH, very few Americans are walking over to .ca. Most of them stay here
> and believe in their superior Freedom(tm)(r)(c) Ltd Inc. So it's not the
> same at all.
>
Perhaps it merely proves that the USA has better brainwashing of its
general public.
J

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <jeeqq2$n7v$1...@mooli.org.uk>,

Peter Corlett <ab...@mooli.org.uk> wrote:

>I just love the irony of Americans complaining about foreign theocracies.

We don't ALL live in Oklahoma!

-GAWollman
(with apologies to the OKians here, who don't fit the stereotype)

--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

[Joe Zeff]

On Mon, 09 Jan 2012 07:18:01 -0600, Mike Andrews wrote:

> "Me against my brother.
> My brother and I against our father.
> My father and his sons against our uncle.
> Our family against other families.
> All of us against outsiders."
>
> Or something rather close to that, IIRC.

Yeah; that kinda thing. However, I've always heard it going in the other
direction ending with, "And if it comes to that, I'm not all that sure
about my brother."

--
Joe Zeff -- The Guy With The Sideburns:
http://www.zeff.us http://www.lasfs.info

Physics is the mess that results when
you pollute mathematics with reality.

[Kevin Goebel]

On Mon, 09 Jan 2012 08:20:37 +0100, Gallian <gal...@linuxmail.org> wrote:

>Seebs <usenet...@seebs.net> writes:
>
>> On 2012-01-08, c...@NOSPAM.netunix.com <c...@NOSPAM.netunix.com> wrote:
>>> Sod all to do with race, ITYM culturalist.

>> The word "racist" does not actually turn out to strictly require that the
>> boundary condition be a biologically identifiable boundary.

>> In part, this is because racists are quite good at carving out exceptions --
>> they can hate blacks, but consider blacks with college degrees to not REALLY
>> be black.

>Especially since almost always objections to 'cultural' practices turn
>out to be objections to things practised by brown people.

>I get enough of that kind of sloppy bigotry elsewhere, thank you very
>much.

I apologize for not having your precision bigotry skills, but i'm going to
blanket-label anyone who automatically considers women are inferior members
of humanity due to their gender as lusers (regardless of their color or
"faith"). I'm going to lump in anyone who practices conversion by sword as a
luser, whether they be a member of Al Qaeda or one of the Knights Templar,
or just some nutjob who's had a steady diet of too many amphetamines for
breakfast. Just to show you how sloppy my bigotry is, I also loathe people
who abuse animals.

Kevin Goebel

[Kevin Goebel]

On Mon, 9 Jan 2012 10:28:10 +0000 (UTC), Zebee Johnstone <zeb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I don't disagree, but if you are trying to gore my ox, you missed. My faith
is the US Constitution and especially the Bill of Rights.

There are religous/social Luddites of the "Christian" persuasion, but the
violent ones stand out as abberations such as David Koresh, Jim Jones, and
the Protestants/Catholic that were killing each other in the UK, both who
worship Christ), not as significant percentages of the indigenous
population.

I think Martin Sheen best made the point about the idiocy of following the
Bible literally: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSXJzybEeJM

>Better shoot the lot of 'em.

In Wisconsin.US, the door-to-door prosthelytizers annoyingly (but politely
knock on the door) and I give them a firm "not interested" without bothering
to ask which flavor of opiate-of-the-masses they are hawking. If someone
bangs on my door with the pommel of a scimitar or stock of a Kalashnikov and
insists I come out and play their game, I'm quite prepared to do some
shooting.

In America, the question "Have you stopped beating your wife?" is a joke
demonstrating a logical fallacy. In Afghanistan, it appears to be implied
criticism of the subject's lack of devotion to their faith.

Kevin

[Kevin Goebel]

On Mon, 09 Jan 2012 16:13:33 GMT, ab...@127.0.0.1 wrote:

>On 2012-01-09, Zebee Johnstone <zeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> In alt.sysadmin.recovery on Mon, 09 Jan 2012 02:58:02 -0600
>> Kevin Goebel <kevi...@kevingoebel.com> wrote:

>>> I'll plead guilty to having a culturalist opinion about the majority of
>>> Afghani citizens. I believe they are fundamentalist/radical Muslims who wish
>>> to continue to follow the Koran literally, interpreting every passage which
>>> lets them insist that women be subservient to men.
>>
>> s/Afghani/American
>> s/Muslims/Christians/
>> s/Koran/Bible

>As I understand it, in the 2nd half of 20th century those Afghani
>who weren't happy with their culture left: the rich ones went to
>.uk in the 60s, the rest walked over to whatever the iso code for
>tajiki-djiki-stan-stan is a decade or two later. The majority of
>the ones who stayed were indeed not the liberal godless literate
>feminist progressives.

>Apparently there's fresh crop of kids there now looking for a
>passage to us.

>OTOH, very few Americans are walking over to .ca. Most of them stay
>here and believe in their superior Freedom(tm)(r)(c) Ltd Inc.
>So it's not the same at all.

>> Better shoot the lot of 'em.

>Logistically difficult. Nuke from orbit is the way to go.

Not from orbit. I found the link below (as well as other "gems" by googling
"Nuke Mecca".
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/VernonRichards50806.htm

Congressman Tom Tancredo once suggested it as a response to another attack
by Al Qaeda on American soil.

I've wondered about Iran backstopping another Arab-Israeli war by
threatening Israel with nuclear weapons, and what might happen if Israel
decided to take out Tehran and possibly Mecca with nukes.

There is also the possibility of an Islamic terrorist organization exploding
a dirty bomb in some NATO country in response to one of the NATO members
trying to suppress violence committed by Muslim citizens or residents, such
as the Danish newspaper controversy over Muhammad cartoons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy
If it were to happen in the UK or France, they have the nukes to use.

Kevin Goebel

[Joe Thompson]

On 2012-01-09, Joe Zeff <the.guy.with....@lasfs.info> wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Jan 2012 02:58:02 -0600, Kevin Goebel wrote:
>
>> Afghanistan is largely a collection of internecine feudal tribes.
>> Incursions by major nations in the last couple of centuries have not
>> changed that and I don't think the US invasion will either.
>
> I've heard it said that the only thing that will unite the Afghans is the
> presence of foreign soldiers in Afghanistan. Then, the tribes unite
> (more or less) to throw the foreigners out after which they go back to
> fighting each other.

IIRC one of the challenges of dealing with Afghanistan as a country is
that governmentally, there's very little "there" there: there is indeed
a national government, but it has very little impact on day-to-day
Afghani life. If you want something done outside a major population
center, you aren't going to be dealing with the people in Kabul at all:
it's the local chieftain who makes or breaks whatever operation you're
mounting.

The idea of the Kabul government dictating anything to the chieftains,
even those supportive of it, is apparently a null concept there. -- Joe
--
Joe Thompson | Sysadmin - Scientificist
E-mail addresses in headers are valid. | http://www.orion-com.com/
"There is no way my emacs is ever getting a credit card!" -- Matthew Vernon

[Mike Andrews]

Peter Corlett <ab...@mooli.org.uk> wrote in <jeeqq2$n7v$1...@mooli.org.uk>:

When we have a domestic theocracy of the Iranian sort, we'll complain
about that, too.

--
Norman OK:
Conditions at 2012.01.09 2155 UTC; Wind from the NNE (020 degrees) at 9 MPH (8
KT); Visibility 10 mile(s); Sky conditions clear; Temperature 51 F ; Dew Point
28 F (-2 C); Relative Humidity 40%; Pressure (altimeter) 30.17 in. Hg ;

[c...@nospam.netunix.com]

Kevin Goebel <kevi...@kevingoebel.com> wrote:
>
> I apologize for not having your precision bigotry skills, but i'm going to
> blanket-label anyone who automatically considers women are inferior members
> of humanity due to their gender as lusers (regardless of their color or
> "faith"). I'm going to lump in anyone who practices conversion by sword as a
> luser, whether they be a member of Al Qaeda or one of the Knights Templar,
> or just some nutjob who's had a steady diet of too many amphetamines for
> breakfast. Just to show you how sloppy my bigotry is, I also loathe people
> who abuse animals.

What about the jocks, paddys, sheepshaggers, wogs, wops, krauts, dagos,
surrender monkeys, kikes, kaffirs, rooineks, sauties and oops -
I almost forgot the belgians.

Equal opportunity insults R us.
Please note that only one of the above usually has brown skin but
actually applies to any non-muslim so is not actually racist..

--
From the quill of Chris Newport g4jci.

[Brian Kantor]

Is it bigotry to hate quoted-printable text encoding on Usenet?
- Brian

[mlooney]

Kevin Goebel <kevi...@kevingoebel.com> wrote:
> There is also the possibility of an Islamic terrorist organization exploding
> a dirty bomb in some NATO country in response to one of the NATO members
> trying to suppress violence committed by Muslim citizens or residents, such
> as the Danish newspaper controversy over Muhammad cartoons.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy
> If it were to happen in the UK or France, they have the nukes to use.

I suspect any of the non-nuclear classic "Central Front" NATO members that
wanted a nuke could have one in less than 6 months. The deeply paranoid
part of my lizard brain suspect that at least one of them already has them.

While I'm being all creepy and such, I would not bet lunch at a burger stand
on the Swiss or the Swedes not having nukes.

--
I take one drug to protect myself from myself
The other 3 drugs are to protect you from me.
Please keep this in mind if and when I say I'm off my meds.

[Zebee Johnstone]

In alt.sysadmin.recovery on Mon, 09 Jan 2012 16:00:55 -0600

Kevin Goebel <kevi...@kevingoebel.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Jan 2012 10:28:10 +0000 (UTC), Zebee Johnstone <zeb...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>In alt.sysadmin.recovery on Mon, 09 Jan 2012 02:58:02 -0600
>>Kevin Goebel <kevi...@kevingoebel.com> wrote:
>
>>> I'll plead guilty to having a culturalist opinion about the majority of
>>> Afghani citizens. I believe they are fundamentalist/radical Muslims who wish
>>> to continue to follow the Koran literally, interpreting every passage which
>>> lets them insist that women be subservient to men.
>
>>s/Afghani/American
>>s/Muslims/Christians/
>>s/Koran/Bible
>
>>There you go.
>
> I don't disagree, but if you are trying to gore my ox, you missed. My faith
> is the US Constitution and especially the Bill of Rights.

But it isn't about you, it is about how a foreigner - me - views your
country.


You say they aren't the majority, that's not what it looks like from
here.

As you haven't been to Afghanistan I presume I expect you are getting
your data from the same place I am getting mine.

From what I can see, the default USAian is a fundamentalist christian
with shitty values about women.

That's what the media tell me.

Confirmed by the number of women in the US who say they are often in fear of
sexual assault.



Zebee

[Graham Reed]

Paul Colquhoun <newsp...@andor.dropbear.id.au> writes:
> Although it just says "fired into the air", so it may not have been
> vertically. On the other hand, it was a muzzle loader.

Thought one: How many people doing that are checking their aim with a
plumb-bob or the like?

Thought two: Do you have to take shoot at an "effective" vertical after
compensating for windage? Or is gravity all that matters?

(The goal being, to get the bullet to tumble, rather than remain on its
spin-stabilized ballistic trajectory.)

--
"Don't talk. Just drink."
-- Penny

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <slrnjgms0b...@gmail.com>,

Zebee Johnstone <zeb...@gmail.com> wrote:

>From what I can see, the default USAian is a fundamentalist christian
>with shitty values about women.
>
>That's what the media tell me.
>
>Confirmed by the number of women in the US who say they are often in fear of
>sexual assault.

The former is in no way confirmed by the latter.

-GAWollman