Re: Birds and snakes, an aeroplane

[David Gersic]

On Wed, 16 May 2012 04:25:01 +0000 (UTC), mrob...@att.net <mrob...@att.net> wrote:
> Jung qb?

As long as the ship isn't actually sinking, I wouldn't man the lifeboats
just yet. It may be prudent to ensure that your personal survival gear
and supplies are in order, just in case.

[Wojciech Derechowski]

On 2012-05-16, mrob...@att.net <mrob...@att.net> wrote:
> Va pnfr vg'f abg boivbhf, gurer vf zber gb guvf fgbel; V whfg qba'g
> pbzcyrgryl gehfg rot naq K-A-N. Gur nobir ner gur znva cbvagf.

Wait and see what salary they are planning for you.
WD
--
Who is Entscheidungs and what is his problem?

[c...@nospam.netunix.com]

mrob...@att.net wrote:

> What do

Wait for the dust to settle, no need to hit the panic button yet..
In the meanwhile polish up your CV and your Linkedin profile.
Consider warning a few pimps of your possible availability.

This is not the best time to be between jobs and skint.

--
From the quill of Chris Newport g4jci.

[Cipher]

On 5/16/2012 12:25 AM, mrob...@att.net wrote:
> Esteemed personages,

I might even qualify for that!

<snip>

> Jung qb?

Get your house in order - rewrite the resume/CV, gather the stuff you
don't want to leave behind, and presume you're fucked.

C'mon, you know this is a very mercenary business, right? It only took
me fifteen years to realize that and start acting like it.

Fuck employers. They're only useful so long as they're useful.


The word "urgent" is the moral of the story "The boy who cried wolf". As
a general rule I don't believe it until a manager comes to me almost in
tears. I like to catch them in a cup and drink them later.
-- Matt Holiab, in the Monastery

[Andrew]

On Wed, 16 May 2012 04:25:01 +0000 (UTC), mrob...@att.net wrote:

> Jung qb?

Frg gurz ba sver.

...va na vqrny jbeyq, naljnl. Va gur erny bar...jryy, fgneg ybbxvat, ohg
qba'g yrnir lrg. Fhccbfrqyl vg'f rnfvre gb ynaq n arj wbo juvyr lbh'er
fgvyy rzcyblrq. Naq vg'f uneq gb haerfvta nsgre gur snpg vs gur frnepu tbrf
onqyl.

--
Andrew

IT is a filter. It accepts masochists on stdin and emits misanthropes on
stdout.

[TimC]

On 2012-05-17, Lawns 'R' Us (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> Qba'g whzc fuvc jvgubhg univat n yvsr ensg ernql, ohg fgneg ybbxvat,
> frevbhfyl, sbe fnvq yvsr ensg ba gur dhvrg. Fbhaqf yvxr lbh'er tbaan
> arrq vg. Orfg bs yhpx.

Ba gur dhvrg. V snvyrq ng guvf cnfg pbhcyr bs gvzrf. Ubj ryfr ner
lbh zrnag gb nfx sbe ersreraprf ohg ol yrggvat lbhe pheerag obff xabj?

--
TimC
>> Imagine what a tipped over tractor-trailer ... full of potatoes looks like.
> Not half as messy as a truckload of oranges.
Or a hovercraft full of eels. -- Tanuki on ASR

[Peter H. Coffin]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 23:16:05 +1000, TimC wrote:
> On 2012-05-17, Lawns 'R' Us (aka Bruce)
> was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
>> Qba'g whzc fuvc jvgubhg univat n yvsr ensg ernql, ohg fgneg ybbxvat,
>> frevbhfyl, sbe fnvq yvsr ensg ba gur dhvrg. Fbhaqf yvxr lbh'er tbaan
>> arrq vg. Orfg bs yhpx.
>
> Ba gur dhvrg. V snvyrq ng guvf cnfg pbhcyr bs gvzrf. Ubj ryfr ner
> lbh zrnag gb nfx sbe ersreraprf ohg ol yrggvat lbhe pheerag obff xabj?

Bgure yrff-guna-tehagyrq crref.

--
83. If I'm eating dinner with the hero, put poison in his goblet, then
have to leave the table for any reason, I will order new drinks for
both of us instead of trying to decide whether or not to switch
with him. --Peter Anspach's list of things to do as an Evil Overlord

[Joe Zeff]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 14:20:13 +0000, abuse wrote:

> There is something to .usian habit of putting "available upon request"
> in the references section. This way they don't get contacted unless both
> you and $EMPLOYER++ liked each other at the interview.

That's one reason to use that. Another is HR droids emailing your
references to pester them about changing jobs even if they didn't call
you in for an interview. Back when I was looking for unrecovery my
attitude was that if they weren't considering me for a job, they didn't
need to know who my references were. Personally, if I were looking to
hire somebody, I'd be a tad suspicious of anybody who actually listed
their references.

--
Joe Zeff -- The Guy With The Sideburns:
http://www.zeff.us http://www.lasfs.info
The point here is that there are stupid people all over.

[stevo]

TimC <tcon...@rather.puzzling.no-spam-accepted-here.org> wrote:
> On 2012-05-17, Lawns 'R' Us (aka Bruce)
> was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
>> Qba'g whzc fuvc jvgubhg univat n yvsr ensg ernql, ohg fgneg ybbxvat,
>> frevbhfyl, sbe fnvq yvsr ensg ba gur dhvrg. Fbhaqf yvxr lbh'er tbaan
>> arrq vg. Orfg bs yhpx.
>
> Ba gur dhvrg. V snvyrq ng guvf cnfg pbhcyr bs gvzrf. Ubj ryfr ner
> lbh zrnag gb nfx sbe ersreraprf ohg ol yrggvat lbhe pheerag obff xabj?
>

V'ir qbar vg ol nfxvat n pbyyrnthr[1] gb or n ersrerapr, engure guna gur
obff.

Jurgure lbh gryy $CEBFCRPGVIR-RZCYBLRE gung guvf vf n pbyyrnthr be lbhe
obff vf yrsg nf na rkrepvfr sbe gur pynff

[]1 fbzrbar lbh gehfg, boivbhfyl

--
Stevo st...@madcelt.org

[David Cantrell]

On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 11:16:05PM +1000, TimC wrote:
> On 2012-05-17, Lawns 'R' Us (aka Bruce)
> was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> > Qba'g whzc fuvc jvgubhg univat n yvsr ensg ernql, ohg fgneg ybbxvat,
> > frevbhfyl, sbe fnvq yvsr ensg ba gur dhvrg. Fbhaqf yvxr lbh'er tbaan
> > arrq vg. Orfg bs yhpx.
> Ba gur dhvrg. V snvyrq ng guvf cnfg pbhcyr bs gvzrf. Ubj ryfr ner
> lbh zrnag gb nfx sbe ersreraprf ohg ol yrggvat lbhe pheerag obff xabj?

Lbh gryy gur gehgu - gung lbhe pheerag rzcyblre qbrfa'g lrg xabj
lbh'er ybbxvat sbe jbex, naq gung lbh'yy or unccl gb cebivqr
ersreraprf bapr gurl'ir znqr na bssre pbagvatrag hcba gurz. Be
lbh cebivqr pbagnpg qrgnvyf sbe n gehfgrq pbyyrnthr.

--
David Cantrell | Nth greatest programmer in the world

One person can change the world, but most of the time they shouldn't
-- Marge Simpson

[Shmuel Metz]

In <133726048...@hexane.ssi.swin.edu.au>, on 05/17/2012
at 11:16 PM, TimC

<tcon...@rather.puzzling.no-spam-accepted-here.org> said:

>Ba gur dhvrg. V snvyrq ng guvf cnfg pbhcyr bs gvzrf. Ubj ryfr ner
>lbh zrnag gb nfx sbe ersreraprf ohg ol yrggvat lbhe pheerag obff
>xabj?

R.t., $WBO[-1], pbyyrnthrf jub unir nyernql whzcrq fuvc.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <http://patriot.net/~shmuel> ISO position
Reply to domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+bspfh to contact me.
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

[Shmuel Metz]

In <jovisv$1js$1...@xen1.xcski.com>, on 05/16/2012
at 06:53 AM, Joe Thompson <sp...@orion-com.com> said:

>V jnf arneyl gb gung cbvag jvgu zl ynfg wbo, fb zl cyna jnf gb svaq
>na rkvg naq sbepr punatr ng gur cbvag bs n erfvtangvba yrggre[0],
>ohg n) gung bayl jbexf bapr, naq o) gur rkvg ghearq bhg gb or fb
>zhpu orggre guna fgnlvat gung V qrpvqrq gb whfg tb ertneqyrff.

V jnf bapr tvira gur nqivpr gung vs lbh nyybj lbhefrys gb or gnyxrq
bhg bs erfvtavat, gur CGO jvyy riraghnyyl trg onpx ng lbh. Vs lbh'er
gung haunccl naq unir n wbo bssre va unaq, lbh'er orggre bss yrnivat,
nygubhtu lbh fubhyq hfhnyyl nibvq oheavat nal oevqtrf.

[Cipher]

On 5/18/2012 7:01 AM, Lawns 'R' Us wrote:
> Lrnu, gung'f fbzrguvat V'z fgnegvat gb or n yvggyr pbaprearq nobhg sbe
> zlfrys. Guvf arj wbo gung V'z fgnegvat va n yvggyr haqre n zbagu jvyy
> or zl guveq va guerr lrnef: gur svefg sbe yrff guna n lrne; gur frpbaq
> sbe 17-18 zbaguf. Ba gur cyhf fvqr, V srry yvxr V'z pynjvat zl jnl onpx
> gb jurer V arrq gb or, naq V pna rkcynva gur wbo ubccvat gb n pregnva
> qrterr va nal pnfr.

V trg nebhaq gur snpg gung V'ir uryq frira (be vf vg rvtug?) wbof va
guerr lrnef ol abg gryyvat gurz. Frevbhfyl.

Zl erfhzr vf gjb cntrf bs eryrinag VG fxvyyf, cebwrpgf V'ir jbexrq ba,
naq fbyhgvbaf V'ir qrirybcrq nf n Jvaqbjf nqzva. Gurl trg ab wbo
uvfgbel, ab ersreraprf (abg rira gur hovdhvgbhf "cebivqrq ba erdhrfg"
yvar) be nalguvat ryfr. Vg'f gryyvat jubzrire vf ernqvat vg[1] "Urer'f
jung V pna qb - qb lbh arrq guvf be abg?"

V unq bar urnquhagre gryy zr vg'q arire jbex. Fur frrzrq fubpxrq jura V
gbyq ure gunaxf, ohg V'ir orra trggvat n fvg-qbja vagreivrj n jrrx jvgu
guvf nccebnpu - naq guvf jnf qhevat gur jbefg bs gur yngrfg plpyvpny
svanapvny qvfnfgref.

Vg'f pregnvayl n havdhr nccebnpu, fb V'ir orra gbyq, naq phgf bhg nyy
gur ohyyfuvg va zl onpxtebhaq gung'f ragveryl veeryrinag gb ZL arrqf va
n wbo uhag.

Wbo uhagvat pna or ^J^J vf n ybg rnfvre jura lbh fgbc gelvat gb svg vagb
gur UE qrcnegzrag'f obk.


[1] Rira vs vg vf purpxrq sbe ohmmjbeqf - V chg rabhtu va gb or bs
vagrerfg gb gur zngevk


--

[Cipher]

On 5/25/2012 3:28 PM, mrob...@att.net wrote:
> Bar jnl guvf pna snvy gb jbex: vs lbh nfx nyy gur "Jul qbrf guvf cynpr
> fhpx fb uneq?" dhrfgvbaf naq gura yrnir gur pbzcnal, gur ceboyrz vf
> boivbhfyl*lbh*, naq abg znatyrzrag. Guvf yrgf znatyrzrag whfgvsl abg
> punatvat nalguvat.

You can't fix stupid, nor worry about fixing it; in that way madness lies.

[SteveD]

Ba Guh, 17 Znl 2012 17:47:56 -0400, Fuzhry (Frlzbhe W.) Zrgm
<fcnz...@yvoenel.yfcnpr.bet.vainyvq> jebgr:

>V jnf bapr tvira gur nqivpr gung vs lbh nyybj lbhefrys gb or gnyxrq
>bhg bs erfvtavat, gur CGO jvyy riraghnyyl trg onpx ng lbh. Vs lbh'er
>gung haunccl naq unir n wbo bssre va unaq, lbh'er orggre bss yrnivat,
>nygubhtu lbh fubhyq hfhnyyl nibvq oheavat nal oevqtrf.

Gehr. Orggre abg gb guerngra jvgu erfvtangvba, whfg fvg qbja jvgu n
znantre naq fnl "Guvf vf jung V'q yvxr gb frr unccra va gur pbzcnal va gur
arkg fvk jrrxf."

Vs gurl qb vg, terng. Vs abg, gurl'er abg yvfgravat gb lbh; gvzr gb yrnir.


-SteveD

[Lawns 'R' Us]

Ba 2012-05-26, FgrirQ <hfr...@ib.vq.nh> jebgr:

> Gehr. Orggre abg gb guerngra jvgu erfvtangvba, whfg fvg qbja jvgu n
> znantre naq fnl "Guvf vf jung V'q yvxr gb frr unccra va gur pbzcnal va gur
> arkg fvk jrrxf."
>
> Vs gurl qb vg, terng. Vs abg, gurl'er abg yvfgravat gb lbh; gvzr gb yrnir.

Gur guveq cbffvovyvgl vf gung gurl rkcynva, va rkpehpvngvat qrgnvy,
jul jung lbh'er nfxvat sbe pna'g or qbar va fvk jrrxf, naq gung vg
jvyy gnxr ng yrnfg fvk zbaguf gb n lrne sbe vg gb or qbar, vs vg pna
or qbar ng nyy. Va juvpu pnfr, lbh unir gb qrpvqr: qb lbh fvg onpx naq
jnvg sbe vg gb cbffvoyl unccra, be phg lbhe ybffrf naq zbir ba?

Ohg lrf - gurer fubhyq or ab unez va fvggvat qbja sbe n dhvrg pung naq
rinyhngvat jung unccraf nsgrejneqf.

Vs zl svir lrne cyna jbexf bhg, V'yy or qrog serr, naq va n cresrpg
cbfvgvba gb unir fhpu dhvrg pungf jvgubhg gbb zhpu pbaprea. V pna
ubcr, naljnl.

[Wojciech Derechowski]

On 2012-05-27, AdB <ab...@leftmind.net> wrote:
>
> Arj Pbecbengr Bireybeqf pna or n zvkrq rkcrevrapr. Barf V'ir zrg va gur
> cnfg unir orra n ovg _gbb_ rntre gb tebj ol npdhvfvgvba, juvpu yrnqf gb
> gurz univat gurve arpxf gbb sne bhg jura gur svfpny qnlfgne tbrf oruvaq
> n pybhq.
>

Nabgure cbffvovyvgl vf gung gurl ernq fbzrjurer ubj ernyyl fxvyyrq crbcyr
graq gb haqrerfgvzngr gurve novyvgvrf[0] *naq* ubj lbh arrq n "zbgvingvba"
fb gung rirelbar va gur pbzcnal zhfg unir n fcyvg fnynel, juvpu jvyy znxr
gurz gel gb erqhpr ng yrnfg gur inevnoyr cneg bs gur cnlebyy jura pneelvat
bhg gur zretre orgjrra qrcnegzragf.

Fb gur ernyyl vagrerfgvat dhrfgvba vf juvpu bs gur qrcnegzragf vf orggre
cnvq ba nirentr naq jul.

WD
[0] uggc://pvgrfrrek.vfg.cfh.rqh/ivrjqbp/qbjaybnq?qbv
=10.1.1.64.2655&erc=erc1&glcr=cqs sbe vafgnapr
--
Who is Entscheidungs and what is his problem?

[SteveD]

Ba 26 Znl 2012 10:40:09 TZG, Ynjaf 'E' Hf <abo...@abjurer.rknzcyr.pbz>
jebgr:

>Ba 2012-05-26, FgrirQ <hfr...@ib.vq.nh> jebgr:
>> Gehr. Orggre abg gb guerngra jvgu erfvtangvba, whfg fvg qbja jvgu n
>> znantre naq fnl "Guvf vf jung V'q yvxr gb frr unccra va gur pbzcnal va gur
>> arkg fvk jrrxf."
>>
>> Vs gurl qb vg, terng. Vs abg, gurl'er abg yvfgravat gb lbh; gvzr gb yrnir.
>
>Gur guveq cbffvovyvgl vf gung gurl rkcynva, va rkpehpvngvat qrgnvy,
>jul jung lbh'er nfxvat sbe pna'g or qbar va fvk jrrxf, naq gung vg
>jvyy gnxr ng yrnfg fvk zbaguf gb n lrne sbe vg gb or qbar, vs vg pna
>or qbar ng nyy. Va juvpu pnfr, lbh unir gb qrpvqr: qb lbh fvg onpx naq
>jnvg sbe vg gb cbffvoyl unccra, be phg lbhe ybffrf naq zbir ba?

V'q fnl zbir ba. Vs gurl'er abg tbvat gb qb vg va fvk jrrxf, gurl'er abg
tbvat gb qb vg ng nyy. Vs gurl rire trg vg qbar, lbh'er va gur cubar obbx.


-FgrirQ

[Kevin Goebel]

On Tue, 31 Jul 2012 01:23:46 +0000 (UTC), mrob...@att.net wrote:

>mrob...@att.net wrote:
>> Work sucks, should I become a vegetation control technician instead?
>
>End result: Recovery from there on 27 July 2012. Started new job on
>30 July 2012. The working conditions are somewhat different, but it's
>a larger place that is actually likely to still exist in 2 years. I
>also got a raise of a little over half a dB, which is always nice.

Over half a decibel? That sounds nice.

Kevin Goebel

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <38he18t0um93h163k...@4ax.com>,

Actually, [...calculating...] that's very much not bad indeed.
Especially in this economy, even more especilaly in the art of the
country where mroberds lives. (Assuming he hasn't moved far enough to
lose the whole increase in cost-of-living.)

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

[stevo]

mrob...@att.net wrote:
> mrob...@att.net wrote:
>> Work sucks, should I become a vegetation control technician instead?
>
> End result: Recovery from there on 27 July 2012. Started new job on
> 30 July 2012. The working conditions are somewhat different, but it's
> a larger place that is actually likely to still exist in 2 years. I
> also got a raise of a little over half a dB, which is always nice.
>

> Thanks for the listening and advice.
>
Dancing rodents.

The new ork will, of course, suck. But at least it will suck in new and
interesting ways. And more money is always nice.


--
Stevo st...@madcelt.org

[Robert Uhl]

mrob...@att.net writes:
>
>> Work sucks, should I become a vegetation control technician instead?
>
> End result: Recovery from there on 27 July 2012. Started new job on
> 30 July 2012.

Dancing rodents! All the best at your new place--may it be as rewarding
as mine has been and more.

And for everyone else: never be afraid to leave a bad situation.

--
The thing that really scares me is that by the time I'm that old, the
latest technology will have become counter-intuitive to me, and I'll end
up saying stupid things like, `my nanobots aren't replicating' when, in
fact, any 15-year-old can tell they clearly are. --Fratz

[Lawns 'R' Us]

On 2012-08-02, Robert Uhl <eadm...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
> And for everyone else: never be afraid to leave a bad situation.

A. Fucking. Men.

Vg fgnegrq ol gnxvat n wbo va gur Friragu Fgngr (V fnvq gb gurz
bhgevtug: V'yy gnxr wbxrf nobhg gur Jrfg Vfynaq, vs lbh thlf jvyy gnxr
wbxrf nobhg gur Friragu Fgngr. Jbexrq jryy.) Pbagvahrq jvgu zr fvggvat
ba zl guhzof _jnl_ gbb zhpu, naq abg orpnhfr gurer jnfa'g jbex gung
arrqrq gb or qbar.

Fb nsgre fvk zbaguf, V fgnegrq ybbxvat sbe n arj wbo. Sbhaq bar - abg
va zl ubzr gbja, jurer V jnagrq gb or, ohg jvguva n gjb ubhe syvtug
(nf qvfgvapg sebz n guerr ubhe syvtug, cyhf Phfgbzf pyrnenapr, cyhf
nyy gur erfg bs gung thss.) V gbbx vg.

N lrne yngre, V svtherq V'q cnvq zl qhrf gb gung wbo, naq fgnegrq
ybbxvat. V unaqrq va zl erfvtangvba nobhg gjb naq n unys zbaguf ntb
(nsgre rvtugrra zbaguf be fb gurer.) $OBFF jnfa'g unccl nobhg vg. Ba
gung fnzr qnl, gurer jnf n Frevbhf Qvfphffvba orgjrra $OBFF naq zl
pbyyrnthrf, nobhg gur vffhrf jr fnj va gur pbzcnal. Pregnva
pbzzvgzragf jrer znqr ol $OBFF; V sryg serr gb - cbyvgryl! - rkcerff
zl ivrjf ba jung jnf tbvat ba, va zber qverpg ynathntr guna V jbhyq
unir qnerq vs V'q orra fgnlvat ba (juvpu zl pbyyrnthrf jrer zbfg
nccerpvngvir bs.)

Chg gb n jrrx be fb ntb; V pnhtug hc jvgu sbezre pbyyrnthrf. Jbeq ba
gur fgerrg sebz gurz vf gung znantrzrag jnf gnyxvat gur gnyx sbe n
juvyr, ohg qvqa'g dhvgr znantr gb jnyx gur jnyx ... naq gur gnyx
fgbccrq abg gung ybat ntb. Nabgure pbyyrnthr, va na FZF pbairefngvba,
nqzvggrq gung guvatf unq tbar qbjauvyy va n znwbe jnl nsgre V'q yrsg.

Sb V svaq zlfrys nf n fbzrjung vzcebzcgh cvzc: V frr wbo
cbffvovyvgvrf, V cnff gurz ba gb zl sbezre pbyyrnthrf. Vs zl rk
znantrzrag jnagf gb pbzcyrgryl ohea gurve perqvovyvgl (naq V fnvq nf
zhpu gb $OBFF'f snpr nsgre gur zrrgvat: uvf perqvovyvgl jnf
_pbzcyrgryl_ ba gur yvar nsgre nyy gur guvatf ur'q fnvq), V'z zber
guna unccl gb uryc gur fuvc fvax n ovg snfgre.

[Andrew]

On Wed, 01 Aug 2012 22:34:14 -0600, Robert Uhl wrote:

> mrob...@att.net writes:
>>
>>> Work sucks, should I become a vegetation control technician instead?
>>
>> End result: Recovery from there on 27 July 2012. Started new job on
>> 30 July 2012.
>
> Dancing rodents! All the best at your new place--may it be as rewarding
> as mine has been and more.
>
> And for everyone else: never be afraid to leave a bad situation.

Vf nqivpr nobhg npuvrivat guvf cneg jvgubhg ceboyrzngvpnyyl ybat erpbirel
pbafvqrerq HV? Zl fvghngvba'f abg ernyyl nyy gung onq (erprag enagf
abgjvgufgnaqvat), ohg V'z haqrecnvq, oberq, naq qvfvyyhfvbarq jvgu gur hfr
bs Pregnva Pbzzba Jrofvgrf.

--
Andrew

IT is a filter. It accepts masochists on stdin and emits misanthropes on
stdout.

[Joe Zeff]

On Thu, 02 Aug 2012 11:26:42 +0000, Lawns 'R' Us wrote:

> Sb V svaq zlfrys nf n fbzrjung vzcebzcgh cvzc: V frr wbo cbffvovyvgvrf,
> V cnff gurz ba gb zl sbezre pbyyrnthrf.

Ner lbh trggvat svaqre'f srrf? Vs abg, V'z abg fher vs gur grez'f
nccebcevngr.

--
Joe Zeff -- The Guy With The Sideburns:
http://www.zeff.us http://www.lasfs.info

Spammers. Can't live with them, can't flay them
and throw them into a bath of coarse sea salt.

[Cipher]

On 8/2/2012 8:30 AM, Andrew wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Aug 2012 22:34:14 -0600, Robert Uhl wrote:
>
>> mrob...@att.net writes:
>>>
>>>> Work sucks, should I become a vegetation control technician instead?
>>>
>>> End result: Recovery from there on 27 July 2012. Started new job on
>>> 30 July 2012.
>>
>> Dancing rodents! All the best at your new place--may it be as rewarding
>> as mine has been and more.
>>
>> And for everyone else: never be afraid to leave a bad situation.
>
> Vf nqivpr nobhg npuvrivat guvf cneg jvgubhg ceboyrzngvpnyyl ybat erpbirel
> pbafvqrerq HV? Zl fvghngvba'f abg ernyyl nyy gung onq (erprag enagf
> abgjvgufgnaqvat), ohg V'z haqrecnvq, oberq, naq qvfvyyhfvbarq jvgu gur hfr
> bs Pregnva Pbzzba Jrofvgrf.

V fgbccrq hfvat n puebabybtvpny erfhzr naq hfr n fxvyyf onfrq bar (V'yy
rznvy ba erdhrfg; zl rznvy nqqerff va guvf frcgrzore sebhc vf npghnyyl
inyvq).

Gurl trg ab ersreraprf, gvzryvar, be rira na vqrn bs ubj ybat V'ir orra
jbexvat - whfg n yvfg bs fghss V pna qb sbe gurz.

V'ir orra gbyq guvf vf n fhobcgvzny jnl gb frnepu, naq lrg va gur jbefg
bs gur rpbabzvp qbjaghea (.hf) V jnf trggvat na vagreivrj n jrrx. Jvgu
gur hfhny erfhzr vg jnf bar n zbagu, vs gung. V'ir fvapr pbzr gb gur
pbapyhfvba vg'f n fhobcgvzny jnl gb unir n erfhzr vs [n] lbh'er n
urnquhagre ybbxvat sbe crbcyr gb nqq gb gur qngnonfr be [o] abg fbzrbar
V'q or vagrerfgvat va jbexvat sbe naljnl.

[Andrew]

On Thu, 02 Aug 2012 18:18:44 -0400, Cipher wrote:

> On 8/2/2012 8:30 AM, Andrew wrote:
>> On Wed, 01 Aug 2012 22:34:14 -0600, Robert Uhl wrote:
>>
>>> And for everyone else: never be afraid to leave a bad situation.
>>

>> Is advice about achieving this part without problematically long recovery
>> considered UI? My situation's not really all that bad (recent rants
>> notwithstanding), but I'm underpaid, bored, and disillusioned with the use
>> of Certain Common Websites.
>
> I stopped using a chronological resume and use a skills based one (I'll
> email on request; my email address in this september froup is actually
> valid).

I was more referring to search algorithm than sales literature, but that's
still interesting. I have a (competent) co-worker who does it that way.

> They get no references, timeline, or even an idea of how long I've been
> working - just a list of stuff I can do for them.
>
> I've been told this is a suboptimal way to search, and yet in the worst
> of the economic downturn (.us) I was getting an interview a week. With
> the usual resume it was one a month, if that.

I'm curious if they bothered asking for the missing work history/references
at any point. Here, HR verifies that stuff, and to do so they'd have to
have it first.

> I've since come to the
> conclusion it's a suboptimal way to have a resume if [a] you're a
> headhunter looking for people to add to the database or [b] not someone
> I'd be interesting in working for anyway.

If anything I would think it's *more* database-friendly, but my mental map
of recruiter databases specifies indexes of technologies used rather than
jobs worked. Perhaps my map needs fixing.

[Cipher]

On 8/6/2012 8:32 AM, Andrew wrote:

>> They get no references, timeline, or even an idea of how long I've been
>> working - just a list of stuff I can do for them.

> I'm curious if they bothered asking for the missing work history/references
> at any point. Here, HR verifies that stuff, and to do so they'd have to
> have it first.

I'll give up the history and references, but not until I get an
interview. By the time I've gotten through an interview they're very
much interested in a hire and checking off the boxes for HR.

>> I've since come to the
>> conclusion it's a suboptimal way to have a resume if [a] you're a
>> headhunter looking for people to add to the database or [b] not someone
>> I'd be interesting in working for anyway.
> If anything I would think it's *more* database-friendly, but my mental map
> of recruiter databases specifies indexes of technologies used rather than
> jobs worked. Perhaps my map needs fixing.

YMMV, widely, I guess. I won't claim to understand headhunters, but
they've universally bitched about the skills-based resume. My suspicion
is their OCR/parser can't figure it out.

Direct-hire jobs, if they demand a chronological resume over a
skills-based, I've found are bound in mindsets that clash horrifically
with getting things done.

[Peter Corlett]

Cipher <nota...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[...]

> I'll give up the history and references, but not until I get an
> interview. By the time I've gotten through an interview they're very
> much interested in a hire and checking off the boxes for HR.

The trick - ObXThread - is to become a consluttant. As the saying goes,
everybody wants a good builder, but will make do with one who can start on
Monday. Flexibility is king, and clients are very much interested in you
being able to start immediately, even if HR then throw a spanner in the
works and means you can't stop for another month. You're still ahead of the
permies, whose CVs are AFAICS used as kindling.

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <jvpi8d$atv$1...@dont-email.me>, Cipher <nota...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I'll give up the history and references, but not until I get an
>interview. By the time I've gotten through an interview they're very
>much interested in a hire and checking off the boxes for HR.

I don't think we'd even look at an applicant who omitted some sort of
job history in the resume. We don't necessarily care what an
applicant did where, but we do want to understand the sort of work
environment the applicant is coming from and whether they've been able
to keep a job for longer than the time it takes to learn our (highly
idiosyncratic) environment. On the other hand, we're not interested
in your references until we've already decided we want to hire you;
that's more for due diligence than anything else.

Our[1] first interview question is usually something on the order of
"What made you want to work here?" or "Why did you decide you wanted
to leave $JOB[0]?" We try to work out in advance a set of technical
questions that can give us a decent idea of whether the candidate has
appropriate skills for the job.

-GAWollman

[1] We do a two-stage tag-team interview process: the candidate first
meets with the group leader one-on-one, for about half an hour, then
gets questioned by the rest of the group for an hour or more (as our
schedules permit).

[Wojciech Derechowski]

On 2012-08-07, Peter Corlett <ab...@mooli.org.uk> wrote:
> Cipher <nota...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
>> I'll give up the history and references, but not until I get an
>> interview. By the time I've gotten through an interview they're very
>> much interested in a hire and checking off the boxes for HR.
>
> The trick - ObXThread - is to become a consluttant. As the saying goes,
> everybody wants a good builder, but will make do with one who can start on
> Monday. Flexibility is king, and clients are very much interested in you

> being able to start immediately...

Of course, flexibility: http://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en&v=RJVHTQSvUIo&gl=US

WD

[Ron Parker]

On Mon, 6 Aug 2012 08:32:26 -0400, Andrew wrote:
> If anything I would think it's *more* database-friendly, but my mental map
> of recruiter databases specifies indexes of technologies used rather than
> jobs worked. Perhaps my map needs fixing.

You've seen evidence that recruiters pay attention to what technologies
you've used before throwing you up against the wall to see if you stick?
I call BS.

[c...@nospam.netunix.com]

The recruiter does not want your previous positions for your benefit, he
wants them to find out who employs people with your skills.
The recruiter is a salesman, employers are the customers and you are the
product.

--
From the quill of Chris Newport g4jci.

[Robert Uhl]

Naqerj <naq...@vainyvq.vainyvq> jevgrf:

>
>> V fgbccrq hfvat n puebabybtvpny erfhzr naq hfr n fxvyyf onfrq bar
>> (V'yy rznvy ba erdhrfg; zl rznvy nqqerff va guvf frcgrzore sebhc vf
>> npghnyyl inyvq).
>

> V jnf zber ersreevat gb frnepu nytbevguz guna fnyrf yvgrengher, ohg gung'f
> fgvyy vagrerfgvat. V unir n (pbzcrgrag) pb-jbexre jub qbrf vg gung jnl.

Svefg ovg bs nqivpr: lbhe fbpvny argjbex vf uhtryl vzcbegnag. Uhzna
orvatf ner fbpvny navznyf, naq jr gehfg crbcyr jr xabj zber guna crbcyr
jr qba'g--naq jr gehfg crbcyr erpbzzraqrq ol crbcyr jr xabj zber guna
crbcyr jr qba'g. Argjbex, argjbex, argjbex. Trg bhg gurer naq zrrg
jvgu lbhe pbyyrnthrf va gbja. Argjbex jvgu yvxr-zvaqrq crbcyr ng puhepu
be jub unir gur fnzr uboovrf lbh unir. Jr trrxf graq gb or nfbpvny,
juvpu ernyyl uhegf hf.

Sbe erfhzrf, nf fbzrbar jub unf fcrag n ybg bs gvzr erpragyl ernqvat
gurz: V qba'g pner arneyl nf zhpu nobhg jurer lbh'ir orra (nygubhtu gung
pna or hfrshy vasbezngvba) nf nobhg jung lbh'ir qbar, naq V qba'g pner
arneyl nf zhpu nobhg jung lbh'ir qbar nf nobhg gur ceboyrzf lbh'ir
fbyirq--naq V qba'g pner arneyl nf zhpu nobhg gur ceboyrzf lbh'ir fbyirq
nf nobhg gur vzcnpg lbh'ir unq.

Jurer lbh'ir orra:

2006-2012: Flfnqzva, Npzr Ebpxrg Fxngrf, Vap.

Bxnl, pbby--ohg jub pnerf?

Jung lbh'ir qbar:

Jbexrq jvgu 20 nqzvaf znvagnvavat 1,000 flfgrzf. V vzcyrzragrq n
pbasvthengvba znantrzrag flfgrz onfrq ba Chccrg naq ubzrtebja Clguba
fpevcgf. V qvq rkgrafvir jbex jvgu Antvbf.

Nyevtug, pbby. Ohg _jul_ qvq lbh jbex jvgu Chccrg naq Antvbf? Jung
vzcnpg qvq gurl unir?

Ceboyrzf lbh'ir fbyirq:

Ng Npzr Ebpxrg Fxngrf, jr unq n pbafgnag arrq gb erohvyq cebqhpgvba
flfgrzf qhr gb gur ratvarref' cebgbglcr yno orvat ybpngrq arkg gb bhe
qngn prager; crevbqvpnyyl n ebpxrg fxngr haqre qrirybczrag jbhyq penfu
guebhtu gur jnyy naq qrfgebl n ohfvarff-rffragvny znpuvar. V yrq n
fznyy grnz (guerr bgure nqzvaf naq zlfrys) juvpu qrfvtarq,
vzcyrzragrq, grfgrq naq ebyyrq bhg n pbzovarq Chccrg/Clguba flfgrz gb
erohvyq qrfgeblrq flfgrzf ba vqyr uneqjner ng gur chfu bs gur ohggba.
Jr vagrtengrq guvf jvgu Antvbf zbavgbevat va beqre gb qrgrpg
fxngr-eryngrq naq bgure snvyherf naq nhgbzngvpnyyl sver bss arj
erohvyqf nf arprffnel.

Vzcnpg lbh'ir unq:

V yrq n sbhe-zna grnz juvpu qrfvtarq, vzcyrzragrq naq chfurq vagb
cebqhpgvba n pbasvthengvba znantrzrag flfgrz (onfrq ba Chccrg, Clguba
naq Antvbf) gb qrgrpg flfgrz snvyherf naq nhgbzngvpnyyl ohvyq
ercynprzrag flfgrzf ba-gur-syl. Nf n erfhyg, gur qrpernfrq qbjagvzr
yrq gb n arg fnivatf bs $2 zvyyvba n lrne, naq jr jrer noyr gb
nqzvavfgre n argjbex bs 1,000 flfgrzf jvgu sbhe nqzvaf (1/5 gur
cerivbhf ahzore), fnivat gur pbzcnal $1.5 zvyyvba n lrne va ynobhe
pbfgf.

Ba bgure jbeqf, gryy n fgbel gung qrfpevorf jul lbh'er na nffrg, abg n
pbfg. Zl rknzcyrf ner, bs pbhefr, pbagevirq naq bss-gur-phss, ohg lbh
trg gur vqrn. Rnpu bs hf vf gur ureb bs uvf bja fgbel: _gryy_ lbhef!

Nf sbe frnepuvat: Penvtfyvfg naq Fgnpx Rkpunatr frrz gb or jurer gur
pyrjrq unat bhg. V'ir abg unq zhpu wbl jvgu Zbafgre be Qvpr, ohg bguref
pynvz gb unir. Ntnva, wbva n ybpny tebhc: bsgra sbyxf jvyy cbfg
bcravatf gurer.

Sbe rnpu wbo lbh nccyl sbe, ybbx ng jung gurl qrfpevor nf gurve
erdhverzragf naq guvax nobhg ubj lbh pna uryc gurz engure guna ubj gurl
pna uryc lbh: guvax bs lbhefrys nf n fryyre bs gnyrag, fxvyyf naq
rkcrevrapr engure guna bs lbhe rzcyblre nf fbzrbar jub cnlf lbh.

Jura lbh _qb_ trg na vagreivrj, gel gb svaq fbzrguvat gurl zragvba gb or
trahvaryl vagrerfgrq va. Nf na vagreivrjre, V _ungr_ trggvat fbzrbar
jub vf oberq naq cnffvir; V jnag fbzrbar jub'f nf rkpvgrq nobhg jung jr
qb naq jung ur pna qb jvgu hf nf V nz. Nf na vagreivrjrr, V qba'g jnag
gb pbzr bss nf n pbyq svfu.

Qba'g or artngvir nobhg nalbar be nalguvat. Vs lbh jbex sbe
Qe. Senaxrafgrva, fnl, 'V'z ybbxvat sbe fbzrguvat n yvggyr pybfre gb gur
pvgl,' abg, 'V'z gverq bs tenireboovat naq jbexvat va guhaqrefgbezf.'
Gurer ner irel, irel, _irel_ srj artngvir fgbevrf nobhg fbzrbar ryfr
gung fubj lbh va n cbfvgvir yvtug.

Or lbhefrys, ohg or gur orfg irefvba bs lbhefrys. Fbzrgvzrf na
vagreivrjre vf ybbxvat sbe n ernfba _abg_ gb uver lbh; qba'g tvir uvz
bar. Ohg qba'g gel gb or fbzrbar lbh'er abg. Vs lbh'er pbyqyl
cebsrffvbany, znxr gung na nffrg; vs lbh'er jnez naq sevraqyl, qvggb.
Ghar guvf gb gur vagreivrjre nf orfg nf lbh pna.

Gel uneq abg gb or gur svefg crefba gb zragvba n fnynel ahzore. Lbh
zvtug or fhecevfrq ubj zhpu gur cbfvgvba pbhyq or jbegu. Erzrzore gung
gur ahzore fbzrbar yrnqf jvgu vf abg gur ahzore ur'f jvyyvat gb npprcg.
Lbhe shgher fnynel vf yvxryl gb or onfrq ba crepragntrf bs lbhe vavgvny
bar, naq lbh bjr vg gb lbhefrys abg gb fryy lbhefrys fubeg.

Svanyyl, ernyvfr gung lbh ner _inyhnoyr_. Lbhe gnyrag vf ener gb ortva
jvgu; gur fxvyyf lbh unir qrirybcrq ner rira zber fb; lbhe rkcrevrapr vf
veercynprnoyr. Rirel pbzcnal bhg gurer _arrqf_ grpuavpnyyl-ncg crbcyr,
jurgure vg xabjf vg be abg, naq znal bs gubfr arrq _lbh_. Lbh'er abg n
orttne, pnc va unaq--va znal jnlf, _gurl_ ner. Lbh unir n wbo; lbh
jba'g fgneir, ohg gurl pna'g eha gurve ohfvarff jvgubhg lbh.

--
Zber Fheernycbyvgvx guna Ernycbyvgvx, ohg gura, guvf _vf_ Verynaq jr'er
gnyxvat nobhg. --Fgrir Tybire

[Andrew]

Ba Ghr, 07 Nht 2012 21:23:37 -0600, Eboreg Huy jebgr:

> Naqerj <naq...@vainyvq.vainyvq> jevgrf:
>>
>>> V fgbccrq hfvat n puebabybtvpny erfhzr naq hfr n fxvyyf onfrq bar
>>> (V'yy rznvy ba erdhrfg; zl rznvy nqqerff va guvf frcgrzore sebhc vf
>>> npghnyyl inyvq).
>>
>> V jnf zber ersreevat gb frnepu nytbevguz guna fnyrf yvgrengher, ohg gung'f
>> fgvyy vagrerfgvat. V unir n (pbzcrgrag) pb-jbexre jub qbrf vg gung jnl.

Huy, orsber pbzzragvat V'q whfg yvxr gb fnl gung guvf vf fbzr bs gur zbfg
gubebhtu nqivpr V'ir rire tbggra ba gur fhowrpg. Vs nal bs guvf fbhaqf
pevgvpny, vg'f abg. Gunaxf.

> Svefg ovg bs nqivpr: lbhe fbpvny argjbex vf uhtryl vzcbegnag. Uhzna
> orvatf ner fbpvny navznyf, naq jr gehfg crbcyr jr xabj zber guna crbcyr
> jr qba'g--naq jr gehfg crbcyr erpbzzraqrq ol crbcyr jr xabj zber guna
> crbcyr jr qba'g. Argjbex, argjbex, argjbex. Trg bhg gurer naq zrrg
> jvgu lbhe pbyyrnthrf va gbja. Argjbex jvgu yvxr-zvaqrq crbcyr ng puhepu
> be jub unir gur fnzr uboovrf lbh unir. Jr trrxf graq gb or nfbpvny,
> juvpu ernyyl uhegf hf.

"Nfbpvny" svgf. Jura V yrnir jbex, zl fbpvny erfreibve vf hfhnyyl nyernql
gnccrq bhg whfg sebz univat gbb znal crbcyr gnyxvat nebhaq zr. Vg'f abg
hapbzzba gb tb guebhtu gur riravat abg fnlvat zber guna n srj qbmra jbeqf
rira gb zl cnegare. (naq jr'er obgu BX jvgu gung zbfg bs gur gvzr)

V'z nggrzcgvat gb er-ratvarre guvf. Abg orvat phor-obhaq jbhyq uryc
cerfreir gur fbpvny erfreibve, ohg V svther gurer'f abg zhpu punapr bs
gung.

<favc erfhzr rknzcyrf>

> Ba bgure jbeqf, gryy n fgbel gung qrfpevorf jul lbh'er na nffrg, abg n
> pbfg. Zl rknzcyrf ner, bs pbhefr, pbagevirq naq bss-gur-phss, ohg lbh
> trg gur vqrn. Rnpu bs hf vf gur ureb bs uvf bja fgbel: _gryy_ lbhef!

Qvssvphyg. Zl fgbel ng gur zbzrag unf serdhragyl pbafvfgrq bs gelvat gb
pbaivapr zl fhcrevbef gb fcraq zbarl naq gura svkvat oebxra freiref jvgu
gur erfhygf. V pna'g "yrnq n sbhe zna grnz gb fnir $K zvyyvba" vs V'z abg
yrnqvat n grnz naq zl rssbegf pbafvfg bs perngvat pbfgf engure guna
erzbivat gurz.

Gung'f fgvyy tbbq nqivpr, naq vg frrzf gb or pbzzba nqivpr nf jryy. Vg whfg
nyjnlf frrzf gb or nvzrq ng gur thl yrnqvat gur grnz vafgrnq bs gur thlf
sbyybjvat uvz; naq gurer'f nyjnlf znal zber bs gur ynggre.

> Nf sbe frnepuvat: Penvtfyvfg naq Fgnpx Rkpunatr frrz gb or jurer gur
> pyrjrq unat bhg. V'ir abg unq zhpu wbl jvgu Zbafgre be Qvpr, ohg bguref
> pynvz gb unir. Ntnva, wbva n ybpny tebhc: bsgra sbyxf jvyy cbfg
> bcravatf gurer.

V'z fhecevfrq gb frr n Penvtfyvfg erpbzzraqngvba -- V'ir nyjnlf creprvirq
gur fvgr nf n fbeg bs turggb Ronl. Nqzvggrqyl V'ir arire hfrq vg, naq fb
unir yvggyr whfgvsvpngvba sbe gung creprcgvba.

> Nf na vagreivrjre, V _ungr_ trggvat fbzrbar
> jub vf oberq naq cnffvir; V jnag fbzrbar jub'f nf rkpvgrq nobhg jung jr
> qb naq jung ur pna qb jvgu hf nf V nz. Nf na vagreivrjrr, V qba'g jnag
> gb pbzr bss nf n pbyq svfu.

Nyfb qvssvphyg. V nibvq trggvat rkpvgrq nobhg nalguvat vzcbegnag nf n
znggre bs cevapvcyr; vg srryf yvxr vaivgvat yvsr gb chapu zr va gur snpr.

> Or lbhefrys, ohg or gur orfg irefvba bs lbhefrys. Fbzrgvzrf na
> vagreivrjre vf ybbxvat sbe n ernfba _abg_ gb uver lbh; qba'g tvir uvz
> bar. Ohg qba'g gel gb or fbzrbar lbh'er abg. Vs lbh'er pbyqyl
> cebsrffvbany, znxr gung na nffrg; vs lbh'er jnez naq sevraqyl, qvggb.
> Ghar guvf gb gur vagreivrjre nf orfg nf lbh pna.

Jung vs V'z n zvfnaguebcvp, plavpny, crffvzvfgvp Onfgneq jvgu n frrguvat
ybnguvat sbe gur fbeg bs cbyvgr juvgr yvrf gung znxr gur jbeyq tb ebhaq?
V'z abg fher gurer vf n "orfg irefvba" bs gung. V trg nebhaq vg ng jbex ol
xrrcvat zl genc jryqrq fuhg zbfg bs gur gvzr. Pna'g qb gung va na
vagreivrj.

--
Naqerj

VG vf n svygre. Vg npprcgf znfbpuvfgf ba fgqva naq rzvgf zvfnaguebcrf ba
fgqbhg.

[LP]

> Ba Ghr, 07 Nht 2012 21:23:37 -0600, Eboreg Huy jebgr:
>
>> Naqerj <naq...@vainyvq.vainyvq> jevgrf:
>>>
>>>> V fgbccrq hfvat n puebabybtvpny erfhzr naq hfr n fxvyyf onfrq bar
>>>> (V'yy rznvy ba erdhrfg; zl rznvy nqqerff va guvf frcgrzore sebhc vf
>>>> npghnyyl inyvq).
>>>
>>> V jnf zber ersreevat gb frnepu nytbevguz guna fnyrf yvgrengher, ohg gung'f
>>> fgvyy vagrerfgvat. V unir n (pbzcrgrag) pb-jbexre jub qbrf vg gung jnl.
>
> Huy, orsber pbzzragvat V'q whfg yvxr gb fnl gung guvf vf fbzr bs gur zbfg
> gubebhtu nqivpr V'ir rire tbggra ba gur fhowrpg. Vs nal bs guvf fbhaqf
> pevgvpny, vg'f abg. Gunaxf.

Vg ybbxrq yvxr cerggl tbbq nqivpr sebz jurer V'z fvggvat nf jryy (univat
qbar zl snve funer bs erpehvgvat)

Npghnyyl, gung'f n gvc V'q tvir gb nalbar. Vs lbh'er rire va n cbfvgvba
gb trg vaibyirq jvgu erpehvgvat fbzrbar arj (rvgure fubegyvfgvat be
vagreivrjvat), teno vg jvgu obgu unaqf.

Lbh pna yrnea n *ybg* ol jngpuvat bgure crbcyr znxr zvfgnxrf, naq vs
lbh'er jnqvat guebhtu n cvyr bs PIf be vagreivrjvat n ohapu bs crbcyr
lbh'yy pregnvayl jvgarff ybnqf bs zvfgnxrf!

>> Ba bgure jbeqf, gryy n fgbel gung qrfpevorf jul lbh'er na nffrg, abg n
>> pbfg. Zl rknzcyrf ner, bs pbhefr, pbagevirq naq bss-gur-phss, ohg lbh
>> trg gur vqrn. Rnpu bs hf vf gur ureb bs uvf bja fgbel: _gryy_ lbhef!
>
> Qvssvphyg. Zl fgbel ng gur zbzrag unf serdhragyl pbafvfgrq bs gelvat gb
> pbaivapr zl fhcrevbef gb fcraq zbarl naq gura svkvat oebxra freiref jvgu
> gur erfhygf. V pna'g "yrnq n sbhe zna grnz gb fnir $K zvyyvba" vs V'z abg
> yrnqvat n grnz naq zl rssbegf pbafvfg bs perngvat pbfgf engure guna
> erzbivat gurz.

Lbh qb ubjrire fbyir ceboyrzf jvgu yvzvgrq erfbheprf rirel qnl. Gung'f
n cbfvgvir guvat, gung'f gur fgbel lbh'ir tbg gb gryy. Abg rirel cebwrpg
unf gb "fnir $K zvyyvba" be znxr unys gur grnz erqhaqnag - gur vzcbegnag
guvat vf gung vg fbyirf n ceboyrz be vzcebirf n freivpr.

Fcraqvat zbarl gb fbyir n ceboyrz be vzcebir n freivpr vf n fubeg grez
guvat. Lbh fnl lbh'er fcraqvat zbarl gb svk freiref naq gung perngrf
pbfgf - vg qbrfa'g ernyyl. Jung ner gur pbfgf bs *abg* fcraqvat gur
zbarl naq univat gur xvg qvr pbzcyrgryl? Cbgragvnyyl dhvgr ynetr!

V'z 99% fher gung lbh jbhyqa'g or fcraqvat zbarl gung jnfa'g erdhverq
(orpnhfr lbh qba'g frrz yvxr gung fbeg bs crefba!) - naq gung lbh'er
cebonoyl abg rira fcraqvat gur nzbhag bs zbarl lbh'q yvxr gb or noyr gb!

Fb lbh'er jbexvat jvguva yvzvgf, naq chfuvat ng gubfr yvzvgf jura vg'f
nofbyhgryl erdhverq bs lbh. Gung'f n cbfvgvir guvat! V jnag fbzrbar
jub pna pbzr hc jvgu fbyhgvbaf gb ceboyrzf juvpu qba'g vaibyir fcraqvat
zvyyvbaf jura n pbhcyr bs gubhfnaq jbhyq trg hf zbfg bs gur jnl gurer.

Rira vs lbh'er abg yrnqvat gur grnz, lbh'er "jbexvat jvguva n grnz juvpu
npuvrirq KLM" juvpu vf fgvyy n cbfvgvir nggevohgr juvpu lbh fubhyq znxr
n ovt qrny bhg bs.

Rira vs lbh'er abg va n grnz ng nyy naq ner univat gb qb vg nyy lbhefrys,
orvat noyr gb fbyir ceboyrzf ba lbhe bja vf qrfvenoyr!

Vs V'z erpehvgvat, V qba'g jnag gb urne nobhg gur fgehttyr, nobhg ubj
crefhnqvat nalbar gb qb vg "evtug" vf qvssvphyg/hacebqhpgvir/shgvyr - V
jnag gb urne nobhg gur ceboyrzf lbh'ir fbyirq - ng yrnfg ng gur erfhzr
fgntr.

V nyernql *xabj* gung znantrzrag qba'g yvfgra gb lbh, be gung gurl qba'g
jnag gb fcraq gur zbarl erdhverq gb qb vg evtug, be gung UE ner n ohapu
bs wrexf - orpnhfr gurl ner *rireljurer*

Jung V qba'g nyernql xabj vf gung lbh'er n fxvyyrq ceboyrz fbyire jub
xabjf uvf nefr sebz uvf ryobj naq pna Trg Guvatf Qbar. Fb gryy zr nobhg
gung naq whfg yrnir bhg gur gnyrf bs jbr.

> Gung'f fgvyy tbbq nqivpr, naq vg frrzf gb or pbzzba nqivpr nf jryy. Vg whfg
> nyjnlf frrzf gb or nvzrq ng gur thl yrnqvat gur grnz vafgrnq bs gur thlf
> sbyybjvat uvz; naq gurer'f nyjnlf znal zber bs gur ynggre.

Creuncf zl rkcrevrapr vf fbzrjung yvzvgrq, ohg va zl yvsr nf n flfnqzva
V'ir arire jbexrq va n grnz jurer gur thl ng gur gbc unq nyy gur vqrnf
naq gur erfg bs gur grnz oyvaqyl vzcyrzragrq gurz jvgubhg qbvat nal
guvaxvat sbe gurzfryirf.

Gur hfhny nccebnpu vf "fuvg'f oebxr, ubj qb jr svk vg?" naq rirelbar
vaibyirq vf n fbhepr bs vqrnf gb gnc jura vg pbzrf gb trggvat guvatf onpx
hc. Gurl znl abg trg perqvg jura gur ercbeg gb znantrzrag unccraf, ohg
gung qbrfa'g punatr jung npghnyyl unccrarq.

Fb qba'g cnl gbb zhpu nggragvba gb gur "yrnqvat gur grnz" fvqr bs guvatf
hayrff lbh'er va n cbfvgvba gb fnl gung. Lbh fbyir ceboyrzf rirel qnl (vs
lbh qvqa'g, lbh jbhyqa'g or va guvf wbo) Fryy gung!

>> Nf sbe frnepuvat: Penvtfyvfg naq Fgnpx Rkpunatr frrz gb or jurer gur
>> pyrjrq unat bhg. V'ir abg unq zhpu wbl jvgu Zbafgre be Qvpr, ohg bguref
>> pynvz gb unir. Ntnva, wbva n ybpny tebhc: bsgra sbyxf jvyy cbfg
>> bcravatf gurer.
>
> V'z fhecevfrq gb frr n Penvtfyvfg erpbzzraqngvba -- V'ir nyjnlf creprvirq
> gur fvgr nf n fbeg bs turggb Ronl. Nqzvggrqyl V'ir arire hfrq vg, naq fb
> unir yvggyr whfgvsvpngvba sbe gung creprcgvba.

Penvtfyvfg inevrf *rabezbhfyl* sebz pvgl gb pvgl, sebz pbhagel gb pbhagel.

Vg'f jbegu vairfgvtngvat, ohg vg znl abg jbex sbe lbhe ybpngvba.

>> Nf na vagreivrjre, V _ungr_ trggvat fbzrbar
>> jub vf oberq naq cnffvir; V jnag fbzrbar jub'f nf rkpvgrq nobhg jung jr
>> qb naq jung ur pna qb jvgu hf nf V nz. Nf na vagreivrjrr, V qba'g jnag
>> gb pbzr bss nf n pbyq svfu.
>
> Nyfb qvssvphyg. V nibvq trggvat rkpvgrq nobhg nalguvat vzcbegnag nf n
> znggre bs cevapvcyr; vg srryf yvxr vaivgvat yvsr gb chapu zr va gur snpr.

Lbh qba'g unir gb or rkpvgrq, whfg vagrerfgrq. V ybir vg jura fbzrbar
pbzrf gb na vagreivrj naq unf ernq hc nobhg jung jr qb orsberunaq, naq
nfxf *zr* dhrfgvbaf nobhg bhe vasenfgehpgher be gur freivprf jr cebivqr.

V jnag gb rzcybl vagrerfgrq phevbhf crbcyr jub pna fbyir ceboyrzf.

>> Or lbhefrys, ohg or gur orfg irefvba bs lbhefrys. Fbzrgvzrf na
>> vagreivrjre vf ybbxvat sbe n ernfba _abg_ gb uver lbh; qba'g tvir uvz
>> bar. Ohg qba'g gel gb or fbzrbar lbh'er abg. Vs lbh'er pbyqyl
>> cebsrffvbany, znxr gung na nffrg; vs lbh'er jnez naq sevraqyl, qvggb.
>> Ghar guvf gb gur vagreivrjre nf orfg nf lbh pna.
>
> Jung vs V'z n zvfnaguebcvp, plavpny, crffvzvfgvp Onfgneq jvgu n frrguvat
> ybnguvat sbe gur fbeg bs cbyvgr juvgr yvrf gung znxr gur jbeyq tb ebhaq?

Anu - lbh'er n fgenvtug gnyxvat, ab abafrafr ceboyrzfbyire jub pna svaq
fbyhgvbaf jurer gurer ner ab fbyhgvbaf. Lbh qba'g zrff nobhg, lbh phg
gb gur punfr naq Trg Fghss Qbar.

Gung'f rknpgyl gur fnzr fxvyy frg - whfg ivrjrq sebz n qvssrerag natyr.

Jung vg pbzrf qbja gb vf gung *lbh* xabj ubj tbbq lbh ner. Gurl qba'g.
Fb gryy gurz.

-Paul
--
http://paulseward.com

[Robert Uhl]

Naqerj <naq...@vainyvq.vainyvq> jevgrf:

>
> Huy, orsber pbzzragvat V'q whfg yvxr gb fnl gung guvf vf fbzr bs gur
> zbfg gubebhtu nqivpr V'ir rire tbggra ba gur fhowrpg.

Zl cyrnfher. V erpragyl sbhaq n terng arj cbfvgvba, naq V unccra gb
unir orra vagreivrjvat crbcyr gurer naq ng gur arj cynpr, fb V'ir orra
ba obgu raqf bs guvf cnegvphyne ceboyrz.

Naq zl sevraqf pnyy zr Obo:-)

> Vs nal bs guvf fbhaqf pevgvpny, vg'f abg. Gunaxf.

Url, V whfg fcrag n ybg bs gvzr gryyvat lbh ubj gb orunir...V guvax V
pna gnxr n yvggyr ovg bs zl bja zrqvpvar;-)

> "Nfbpvny" svgf. Jura V yrnir jbex, zl fbpvny erfreibve vf hfhnyyl
> nyernql gnccrq bhg whfg sebz univat gbb znal crbcyr gnyxvat nebhaq
> zr. Vg'f abg hapbzzba gb tb guebhtu gur riravat abg fnlvat zber guna n
> srj qbmra jbeqf rira gb zl cnegare. (naq jr'er obgu BX jvgu gung zbfg
> bs gur gvzr)

Lhc, gung'f abezny sbe crbcyr yvxr hf. Gur ceboyrz vf gung vg _uhegf_
bhe pnerref, onqyl. Abezny crbcyr ner fbpvny crbcyr; gurl frrx
erpbzzraqngvbaf sebz crbcyr gurl xabj, naq tvir erpbzzraqngvbaf bs
crbcyr gurl xabj. Naq V qba'g xabj vs jr'er ernyyl nyy gung qvssrerag,
fhofgvghgvat fbzr nzbhag bs 'V xabj uvz' sbe 'jr trrx bhg bire gur fnzr
fghss.'

> V'z nggrzcgvat gb er-ratvarre guvf. Abg orvat phor-obhaq jbhyq uryc
> cerfreir gur fbpvny erfreibve, ohg V svther gurer'f abg zhpu punapr bs
> gung.

Vg ernyyl vf vzcbegnag. Vs lbh pna sbez n cebsrffvbany argjbex, abg
whfg bs crbcyr lbh ner pheeragyl jbexvat jvgu ohg bs crbcyr lbh unir naq
pbhyq jbexrq nybatfvqr naq sbe (gung ynggre ovg vf vzcbegnag gbb), gura
lbh'yy or nznmrq ng gur cbffvovyvgvrf juvpu bcra hc bire gvzr (naq
gung'f vzcbegnag: guvf vfa'g n fher-sver sbezhyn sbe vafgnag fhpprff; vg
gnxrf gvzr).

V erpnyy va Qnyr Pneartvr'f obbx Ubj gb Jva Sevraq naq Vasyhrapr Crbcyr
ur erpbzzraqrq orvat vagrerfgrq va bgure crbcyr--abg srvtavat vagrerfg,
ohg orvat trahvaryl vagrerfgrq. Lbh'yy svaq gung bgure crbcyr ernyyl
ner vagrerfgvat; rnpu vf gur ureb bs uvf bja fgbel, naq rnpu unf
fbzrguvat ybinoyr nobhg uvf punenpgre. Vagebiregf graq gb svaq gung vg
gnxrf raretl gb qrny jvgu bguref, ohg bire gvzr bar pna yrnea ubj gb
perngr gung raretl ol svaqvat gur vagrerfgvat guvatf gurer ner gb svaq.

>> Ba bgure jbeqf, gryy n fgbel gung qrfpevorf jul lbh'er na nffrg, abg n
>> pbfg. Zl rknzcyrf ner, bs pbhefr, pbagevirq naq bss-gur-phss, ohg lbh
>> trg gur vqrn. Rnpu bs hf vf gur ureb bs uvf bja fgbel: _gryy_ lbhef!
>
> Qvssvphyg. Zl fgbel ng gur zbzrag unf serdhragyl pbafvfgrq bs gelvat gb
> pbaivapr zl fhcrevbef gb fcraq zbarl naq gura svkvat oebxra freiref jvgu
> gur erfhygf. V pna'g "yrnq n sbhe zna grnz gb fnir $K zvyyvba" vs V'z abg
> yrnqvat n grnz naq zl rssbegf pbafvfg bs perngvat pbfgf engure guna
> erzbivat gurz.

Lbh'er fgrrevat fravbe qrpvfvbaznxref; lbh'er thvqvat yrnqrefuvc; lbh'er
cebivqvat xrl vachg. Gur zbarl lbh fcrag jnf yrff guna gur zbarl juvpu
jbhyq unir orra fcrag naq/be ybfg qhr gb oebxra flfgrzf; guhf lbh'er
npuvrivat K% EBV be jung-unir-lbh.

Gur xrl guvat vf: lbh'er abg cnffvir; lbh'er npgvir. Lbh nera'g n thl
jub tbrf va gb jbex rirel qnl naq tbrf ubzr rirel avtug; lbh'er n
inyhnoyr ceboyrz-fbyire jubfr fxvyyf ner rffragvny gb na rzcyblre'f
bcrengvbaf.

> Gung'f fgvyy tbbq nqivpr, naq vg frrzf gb or pbzzba nqivpr nf jryy. Vg
> whfg nyjnlf frrzf gb or nvzrq ng gur thl yrnqvat gur grnz vafgrnq bs
> gur thlf sbyybjvat uvz; naq gurer'f nyjnlf znal zber bs gur ynggre.

Nf YC abgrf, va gur grpuavpny svryq vg'f pbzzba sbe hf nyy gb trg n fubg
ng yrnqrefuvc. Ubarfgyl, jura lbh pbaivapr lbhe fhcrevbef lbh'er
_yrnqvat_ gurz gb gur pbeerpg pbapyhfvba; gurl qba'g unir gvzr gb shyyl
haqrefgnaq n ceboyrz naq gurl ernyvfr gung; lbhe wbo vf gb haqrefgnaq
vg, naq gb rkcynva vg naq vgf fbyhgvbaf gb gurz fb gung gurl pna znxr n
qrpvfvba. Naq gung zrnaf vgf lbhe wbo gb yrnq gurz gb gung qrpvfvba.

> V'z fhecevfrq gb frr n Penvtfyvfg erpbzzraqngvba -- V'ir nyjnlf creprvirq
> gur fvgr nf n fbeg bs turggb Ronl.

YC vf cebonoyl pbeerpg nobhg gur fvgr. SJVJ, va bhe pheerag fubc jr
unir bar PY uver naq frireny crefbany erpbzzraqngvba uverf. Jr unir
fbzr yrnqf bss bs Fgnpx Rkpunatr.

>> Nf na vagreivrjre, V _ungr_ trggvat fbzrbar jub vf oberq naq cnffvir;
>> V jnag fbzrbar jub'f nf rkpvgrq nobhg jung jr qb naq jung ur pna qb
>> jvgu hf nf V nz. Nf na vagreivrjrr, V qba'g jnag gb pbzr bss nf n
>> pbyq svfu.
>
> Nyfb qvssvphyg. V nibvq trggvat rkpvgrq nobhg nalguvat vzcbegnag nf n
> znggre bs cevapvcyr; vg srryf yvxr vaivgvat yvsr gb chapu zr va gur
> snpr.

Nf YC fnlf, gel gb or vagrerfgrq. Jr'er qbvat fbzr arng guvatf ng zl
wbo, naq vg'f ernyyl gbhtu gb or vagrerfgrq va n cbgragvny uver jub whfg
fgnerf qhyyl ng bar.

Jung V svaq urycf vf gb gel gb vzntvar lbhefrys va gur bgure cnegl'f
fubrf, naq gura gel gb nccerpvngr ubj gur fbyhgvbaf ur'f qrfpevovat ner
rkpvgvat gb uvz, be whfg ubj gurl fbyir uvf ceboyrzf.

>> Or lbhefrys, ohg or gur orfg irefvba bs lbhefrys. Fbzrgvzrf na
>> vagreivrjre vf ybbxvat sbe n ernfba _abg_ gb uver lbh; qba'g tvir uvz
>> bar. Ohg qba'g gel gb or fbzrbar lbh'er abg. Vs lbh'er pbyqyl
>> cebsrffvbany, znxr gung na nffrg; vs lbh'er jnez naq sevraqyl, qvggb.
>> Ghar guvf gb gur vagreivrjre nf orfg nf lbh pna.
>
> Jung vs V'z n zvfnaguebcvp, plavpny, crffvzvfgvp Onfgneq jvgu n frrguvat
> ybnguvat sbe gur fbeg bs cbyvgr juvgr yvrf gung znxr gur jbeyq tb ebhaq?
> V'z abg fher gurer vf n "orfg irefvba" bs gung. V trg nebhaq vg ng jbex ol
> xrrcvat zl genc jryqrq fuhg zbfg bs gur gvzr. Pna'g qb gung va na
> vagreivrj.

YC tnir fbzr tbbq nqivpr urer. V jbhyq nqivfr gelvat gb or cbfvgvir
engure guna artngvir--naq abg whfg va vagreivrjf. Fghcvq Cbyylnaan-vfz
vf, jryy, fghcvq, ohg yvsr vf rnfvre vs bar'f cbfvgvir--nyfb, crbcyr
yvxr orvat nebhaq bar, juvpu zrnaf gung fbpvny vagrenpgvbaf ner yrff
cnvashy, juvpu zrnaf gung lbh'er zber qrfvenoyr nf n uver, juvpu zrnaf
lbh trg orggre wbof, juvpu zrnaf lbh'er unccvre, juvpu zrnaf lbh'er zber
cbfvgvir:-)

Erzrzore, lbh ner _inyhnoyr_. Lbh'er jbegu sne, sne zber guna lbh'yy
rire or cnvq (juvpu vf svar: vs lbh jrer jbegu yrff, lbh jbhyqa'g _or_
cnvq); lbh znxr n qvssrerapr gb lbhe pbzcnal ba n qnvyl onfvf, naq lbh
pbhyq znxr na rira terngre qvssrerapr gb nabgure pbzcnal. V'z whfg
nffhzvat gung onfrq ba lbhe cbfgvat urer--ohg V'yy org V'z evtug.

--
Flagrant system error! The system is down. I dunno what you did,
moron, but you sure screwed everything up --Strongbad

[David Cameron Staples]

On 10/08/12 12:22 PM, Robert Uhl wrote:
> Normal people are social people;

Those five words make me angry.

What if it's *not* normal to be a loud shouty person who wants to be
overstimulated with human company all the goddamn time? What if it's
*normal* to want quiet alone time, even if only now and then? What if
the concept that it's *normal* to need constant direct human contact at
all times is a con, an example of sample bias, the result of the fact
that people who don't feel the need to shove themselves in your face all
the goddamned time don't -- for that very reason -- get noticed as much
as the people who do?

What if the "happy, well adjusted, outgoing, friendly extrovert" is a
*pathology* caused by *insensitivity* to human contact, causing them to
need overstimulation to get the same amount of sensory input as the rest
of us, who are quickly enough sated and saturated.

What if we, the introverts of the world, have simply been convinced by
the loudest voices in the room that there's something wrong with us
because *we aren't as numb as they are*? Like a room with a few deaf
people in it, only they don't know that they're deaf, so they SHOUT ALL
THE TIME AND TURN THE MUSIC UP REALLY LOUD, and by virtue of that it
seems like they're they only people there, and they keep asking you why
you are clasping your hands over your ears and frowning in pain and
running for the exit. "BUT THIS IS GOOD FUN! THE MUSIC IS GREAT! WHAT'S
WRONG WITH *YOU*?" And you can't think well enough to answer them,
because the music and the shouting is pushing your eardrums out through
your sinuses, and you can barely remember your own name over the din,
and all the time the extroverts^W deaf people are looking askance at
each other, convinced that *you're* the antisocial one, and because
no-one's been able to make themselves heard over them for the entire
course of human history, they've convinced us to believe that we're
broken as well.

Look at any TV show. You'll find it all replete with extroverts shouting
and gesticulating at each other, and maybe, just maybe, an introvert in
the corner being laughed at. What if *that's not normal,* it's just that
extroverts over the millennia have been agreeing with each other that
they're the normal ones, and neither have they been able to hear us
introverts over the noise, nor have we been able to hear each other.


--
David Cameron Staples | staples AT unimelb DOT edu DOT au
Melbourne University | ITS | Hosting | Unix Operations
<hybridy2k> how do i give ppl ops with a certain level
<@netwerk> rephrase your question in english before i find an axe and
murder your parents -- bash.org/?10646

[Zebee Johnstone]

In alt.sysadmin.recovery on Fri, 10 Aug 2012 08:08:39 GMT

David Cameron Staples <sta...@unimelb.edu.au.NOSPAM> wrote:
> On 10/08/12 12:22 PM, Robert Uhl wrote:
>> Normal people are social people;
>
> Those five words make me angry.
>
> What if it's *not* normal to be a loud shouty person who wants to be
> overstimulated with human company all the goddamn time? What if it's
> *normal* to want quiet alone time, even if only now and then? What if
> the concept that it's *normal* to need constant direct human contact at
> all times is a con, an example of sample bias, the result of the fact
> that people who don't feel the need to shove themselves in your face all
> the goddamned time don't -- for that very reason -- get noticed as much
> as the people who do?

I dunno that's what social means in this context, but I do think the
range of normality is very wide.

I recently (meaning I can't find it now) came across an article about
people being single for whatever reason. THe idea that they couldn't
cope with their lives because there was nothing to do...

OK, some of the people quoted had been in close relationships so where
doing something they were not used to but still... nothing to do if
there isn't another person about?

But... social is not massively extrovert but it is knowing names and
saying hello and chatting a bit and going out for coffee when a bunch
of people do so, and offering to help and generally acknowledging that
other people exist and are of worth.

That social we can do, and probably do do more than we think.

I have no desire to go out to dinner with my colleagues or clubbing or
gaming. I do go for coffee now and then, I do stop and chat on
occasion, I do swap no shit there I was stories and oh god management
stories. But in no way am I doing that all the time or being all in
your face and extroverted. I'm just being social.

Zebee

[David Cameron Staples]

On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 08:48:03 +0000, Zebee Johnstone wrote:

> In alt.sysadmin.recovery on Fri, 10 Aug 2012 08:08:39 GMT David Cameron
> Staples <sta...@unimelb.edu.au.NOSPAM> wrote:
>> On 10/08/12 12:22 PM, Robert Uhl wrote:
>>> Normal people are social people;
>>
>> Those five words make me angry.
>>
>> What if it's *not* normal to be a loud shouty person who wants to be
>> overstimulated with human company all the goddamn time? What if it's
>> *normal* to want quiet alone time, even if only now and then? What if
>> the concept that it's *normal* to need constant direct human contact at
>> all times is a con, an example of sample bias, the result of the fact
>> that people who don't feel the need to shove themselves in your face
>> all the goddamned time don't -- for that very reason -- get noticed as
>> much as the people who do?
>
> I dunno that's what social means in this context, but I do think the
> range of normality is very wide.

The context I read it in was that you have to go out and actively network
to succeed. That immediately made me think of some of the mouthbreathing
individuals I have known and heard tell of who are really good at
networking and gladhanding and smiling and going to parties and sucking
up to the right people, but absolute poison to work with or for.

Yes, it's normal to have friends, and chat to workmates in the tearoom.
But to say that it's necessary to do so in order to gain advance is like
saying that it's necessary to learn PHP to do web programming. That
doesn't mean it's not a chore, or that you have to like it.

And I saw an implication that not to do so is not normal, and my button
was pushed.

...
> OK, some of the people quoted had been in close relationships so where
> doing something they were not used to but still... nothing to do if
> there isn't another person about?

I find it more difficult to do most interesting things if there *are*
people about. Much as I love my family, I haven't had any meaningful time
off from human company in months, and I haven't had the spoons to do some
illumination I've been needing to finish, or to continue on the
Wiktionary
work I've been doing, or start the translation and calligraphy work a
friend suggested, or...

>
> But... social is not massively extrovert but it is knowing names and
> saying hello and chatting a bit and going out for coffee when a bunch of
> people do so, and offering to help and generally acknowledging that
> other people exist and are of worth.
>
> That social we can do, and probably do do more than we think.

That social *I* do. But beyond various rituals and tradtions, and
conversations I can't really avoid, I don't go to the end-of-month
department drinks. A dozen co-workers in my immediate team whom I know
well and like, I can deal with. Scores of relative strangers all shouting
at once, I simply cannot. It does not interest me in the slightest. But
that may be just me, I freely admit.

>
> I have no desire to go out to dinner with my colleagues or clubbing or
> gaming. I do go for coffee now and then, I do stop and chat on occasion,
> I do swap no shit there I was stories and oh god management stories.
> But in no way am I doing that all the time or being all in your face and
> extroverted. I'm just being social.

I suspect the difference is of going out of your way to do it. I talk to
people when I have something to add to the conversation, or when they
talk to me. I don't, as a rule, start conversations, nor do I miss it.
I've spent days without speaking more than ten words all day, and I find
such days calming.

And I resent being told that not only should I break my nature so as to
"network"[0], but that I'm not normal if I don't.

Robert probably didn't mean that, but by the time I was able to step
back, the button had already been pushed.


[0] And by that, I interpreted it as to go out of one's way to meet
people purely for the purpose of advancing one's self. If I have friends
who can help, then that is because I know them and they know me honestly.
I have tried deliberately "networking". It always went nowhere, and was
excruciating in the process. On the contrary, where others have been able
to help, it was people I knew well who caught the right ear. Which might
be taken as proof of Robert's point, except... there was no "networking"
involved. Just years of day-to-day contact. I may have a network, and
have benefited therefrom, but it was a network developed by years of
working with people, not from any sort of deliberate action to "get to
know" people for that purpose.

[Brian Kantor]

In article <5024c183$1...@news.unimelb.edu.au>,

David Cameron Staples <sta...@unimelb.edu.au.NOSPAM> wrote:

>What if
>the concept that it's *normal* to need constant direct human contact at
>all times is a con, an example of sample bias, the result of the fact
>that people who don't feel the need to shove themselves in your face all
>the goddamned time don't -- for that very reason -- get noticed as much
>as the people who do?

Quiet: The Power of Introverts - By Susan Cain
www.thepowerofintroverts.com/
Jun 2, 2012 – Quiet: The Power of Introverts - an ongoing examination
and discussion of introverts, introversion, extroverts, extroversion, and their roles ...

A good and encouraging read. I recommend it.
- Brian

[Shmuel Metz]

In <slrnk29im3...@gmail.com>, on 08/10/2012

at 08:48 AM, Zebee Johnstone <zeb...@gmail.com> said:

>I have no desire to go out to dinner with my colleagues or
>clubbing or gaming. I do go for coffee now and then, I do stop and
>chat on occasion, I do swap no shit there I was stories and oh god
>management stories. But in no way am I doing that all the time or
>being all in your face and extroverted. I'm just being social.

I'll go out with people from the office if they're doing something I
want to do. They might talk me into dinner or a round of Air Hokey,
but if it's, e.g., a sporting event I'll politely decline. I';; ask a
pregnant colleague how she's doing, chat about things I find of
interest, etc., but I won't feign interest in subjects that bore me.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <http://patriot.net/~shmuel> ISO position
Reply to domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+bspfh to contact me.
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

[Graham Reed]

David Cameron Staples <sta...@unimelb.edu.au.NOSPAM> writes:
> What if it's *not* normal to be a loud shouty person who wants to be
> overstimulated with human company all the goddamn time?

How come I can't find the up-vote button on this?

--
^F^R^E^A^K

[David Cameron Staples]

On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:59:15 +0000, Satya wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 11:23:50 +0000 (UTC), David Cameron Staples wrote:

>> be taken as proof of Robert's point, except... there was no
>> "networking" involved. Just years of day-to-day contact. I may have a
>> network, and have benefited therefrom, but it was a network developed
>> by years of working with people, not from any sort of deliberate action
>> to "get to know" people for that purpose.
>

> That's networking.

Yes, but no. It didn't happen because I was trying to network, it just
happened.

So to that extent, the advice to gain a network of friends and colleagues
by expending effort to gain a network is, in my view, not helpful. If you
were able to do something like that, then you would already be doing it.
At a different level of intensity, maybe, from the gladhanding networker,
it might be slower and a smaller network, but it's still there.

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <k02r06$iq4$1...@dont-email.me>,

David Cameron Staples <sta...@unimelb.edu.au.NOSPAM> wrote:
>That social *I* do. But beyond various rituals and tradtions, and
>conversations I can't really avoid, I don't go to the end-of-month
>department drinks. A dozen co-workers in my immediate team whom I know
>well and like, I can deal with. Scores of relative strangers all shouting
>at once, I simply cannot. It does not interest me in the slightest. But
>that may be just me, I freely admit.

It's not just you. (And outside of work, the "social" things people
do while seeking a mate are absolutely revolting....)

-GAWollman
(who actually feels pretty worthless right now, TYVM)

[James Wilkinson]

Garrett Wollman wrote:
> -GAWollman
> (who actually feels pretty worthless right now, TYVM)

This, too, shall pass.

But if it doesn’t do so quickly, *please* see someone about it.

In the meantime, spoil yourself. Get outside, and try to enjoy yourself.
And don’t feel ashamed about how you feel.

James.

--
E-mail: james@ | "This was, apparently, beyond her ken.
aprilcottage.co.uk | So far beyond her ken that she was well into barbie
| territory."
| -- J. D. Baldwin

[Cipher]

On 8/11/2012 2:36 AM, Garrett Wollman wrote:

> It's not just you. (And outside of work, the "social" things people
> do while seeking a mate are absolutely revolting....)

<AOL>

I am horrible in situations where I don't know anyone, and this includes
meetups for geeky things I'm intensely interested in. I've come to call
it "social paralysis"�. Online meetups are fine, but in the same room
with all the pheromones and actual people?

As far as the mating dances of humans, I've been *incredibly* fortunate
that all of my interactions in that sphere have been either friends of
friends or cow-orkers; this 'method' - it definitely wasn't conscious on
my part - manages to break through the social paralysis to reveal the
outwardly misanthropic and slightly disturbing guy as "Accomplished,
compassionate, dependable, devoted, funny, intelligent, loyal,
protective and sensual".[1]

Now, if someone can explain to me how I can have this social paralysis
and still have managed success as a technical trainer and/or presenter
to a room full of utter strangers, I'd be listening.

> -GAWollman
> (who actually feels pretty worthless right now, TYVM)

I know that feel, all too well.




[1] This was from a book my wife had printed for our 15th anniversary in
July; I've taken to reading it when I'm feeling useless or stupid.

[Peter Corlett]

Garrett Wollman <wol...@bimajority.org> wrote:
[...]

> It's not just you. (And outside of work, the "social" things people do
> while seeking a mate are absolutely revolting....)

It's unpleasant enough watching them seeking a mate while *at* work.

> -GAWollman
> (who actually feels pretty worthless right now, TYVM)

It took me rather too many years to realise that having a partner was just a
cultural expectation, and not actually what I wanted myself. So I stopped
hanging around sleazy meat racks with foul beer and painful music, deleted
all my online dating profiles, and went out and had fun on my own.

[Cipher]

On 8/10/2012 4:08 AM, David Cameron Staples wrote:
> On 10/08/12 12:22 PM, Robert Uhl wrote:
>> Normal people are social people;
>
> Those five words make me angry.

I would say "normal" in this sense is more akin to the mathematical
norm, i.e., we're two or more sigma out from *observed behavior* of the
population[1].

Whether this population's observed behavior is fundamentally broken is a
separate matter.




[1] In the statistical sense.

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <k05m39$j4e$1...@mooli.org.uk>,

Peter Corlett <ab...@mooli.org.uk> wrote:

>It took me rather too many years to realise that having a partner was just a
>cultural expectation, and not actually what I wanted myself.

See, I went through the first twenty years of my adult life feeling
that way, and it's only now, at 39, that I'm feeling like I squandered
nearly all of the time when people my age were actually available.
The fact that so few people are actually attractive to me doesn't
help. (Just how big is the intersection of {interesting},
{attractive}, {available}, and {ever likely to meet}? At this point
I'm not convinced that it's non-empty, and that's a profoundly
depressing thought. And that's without even considering the thorny
problem of reciprocal attraction[1] and interest.) Nearly everyone I
know in my age cohort is either married and having children or
not-married to someone and not interested in having children.

It doesn't help at all that I made the decision eleven years ago to
buy a condo in the suburbs. I now have an underwater mortgage in a
neighborhood full of working-class Brazilian families. (NTTAWT
working-class Brazilian families; they're good neighbors, just no
relationship potential.)

I'm not sure whether I'm interested in child processes, either, but
I'm coming to think (somewhat to my own surprise) that I am. Pity
that women my age are getting to the end of their reproductive
capabilities, such that if I did really want offspring I would need to
be looking five years or so younger, to account for the time it takes
for most people to get to that point. (And being an only child
myself, there's one thing I'm adamant about: it's either two or none.
Two is still less than replacement.)

-GAWollman

[1] And let's be honest here: I'm a fat 39-year-old geek with bad
eyesight, bad skin, and greying hair, completely indifferent to
fashion, whose only hobby is driving around the country taking
pictures of radio towers. I work in a research laboratory which is
filled with people who are much smarter and more interesting than I
am, but not known for their attractiveness. Those who are, are
universally already taken, not to mention more than a decade younger.

[Craig Miskell]

On 12/08/12 1:12 AM, Cipher wrote:
> Now, if someone can explain to me how I can have this social paralysis
> and still have managed success as a technical trainer and/or presenter
> to a room full of utter strangers, I'd be listening.

I'm similar, and I've given it much thought. I think it's to do with
control. In the generalised social situation, what's supposed to happen
is outside your control. People will interact, something is expected,
but FSM-knows what that is.

In the training/presenting scenario, everyone is looking to you to Make
Shit Happen. You're in control, the expectations are clear, and in some
senses it's not actually all that social (although there are clearly
inter-personal factors at play in whether the training/presenting is
successful).

Just my $0.02

Craig Miskell

[Kevin Goebel]

On Sun, 12 Aug 2012 11:39:47 +1200, Craig Miskell <cr...@stroppykitten.com>
wrote:

So, a geek-friendly solution is obvious, is it not? Host an entertainment
conference, with scheduled games, drinking, and eating breakout sessions.
Use Micro$oft OutHouse to send the attendance requests for the conference,
so nobody feels the social pressure that comes with party invitations.
Request volunteers to make various Chips and Dip, Barbequed Meatballs, and
Hotwings presentations.

Kevin Goebel

[Maarten Wiltink]

"Satya" <sat...@satyaonline.cjb.net> wrote in message
news:slrnk2a2p2...@gort.thesatya.com...
[...]
> (Phr "lbh'q engure *jbex*?!" fnvq ol crbcyr jub qba'g rawbl jung gurl qb)

These are probably the same people to whom networking doesn't feel like
work.

I'd rather work than not work even if my boss pays me for it, but that's
a matter of work ethics. I'd also rather work than 'network' and yes,
that's because I'm an antisocial greasemonkey[0]. Oh, and because I like
my work.

There's someone in my close circle who's losing her job and is more or
less getting her face rubbed in the fact that she may not be exactly
_bad_ at what she does now, but it's not what she does best and the
coworkers tend to be swine. Of course she's in sales.

It's harder than it sounds to tell her to go do what she likes, because
I don't want to appear pushy (let alone ruin her life through staying
unemployed), and I don't want to go on about how great my life is, and
that being lucky is the result of setting yourself up for it.

Tebrgwrf,
Maarten Wiltink

[0] The actual term used at my old university translates to 'bicycle
fixer'.

[Willem]

Maarten Wiltink wrote:
) [0] The actual term used at my old university translates to 'bicycle
) fixer'.

ITYM 'Bicycle Repair Man!'


SaSW, Willem
--
Disclaimer: I am in no way responsible for any of the statements
made in the above text. For all I know I might be
drugged or something..
No I'm not paranoid. You all think I'm paranoid, don't you !
#EOT

[Maarten Wiltink]

"Willem" <wil...@toad.stack.nl> wrote in message
news:slrnk2ese7...@toad.stack.nl...

> Maarten Wiltink wrote:

> ) [0] The actual term used at my old university translates to 'bicycle
> ) fixer'.
>
> ITYM 'Bicycle Repair Man!'

Ah yes, the world's dorkiest superhero, conceived as a parody too.

You *have* to be a nerd to appreciate him. (Of course, he does do good
work...)

Tebrgwrf,
Maarten Wiltink

[Wojciech Derechowski]

...displaying so much work ethics (and love for bicycles), he must be
Dutch. Here is similar thought from an annoucement sent to Java
devs by certain Dutch firm changing its name not long ago:

"The name 'Qhgpujbexf' is derived from our love for typical Dutch
values such as thoroughness, innovation and entrepreneurship, all
of which have played an important part in the success of WGrnz
ever since we began."

I half expect them to wear tights and capes and permanent hairdos
all the time.

WD
--
Who is Entscheidungs and what is his problem?

[Cipher]

On 8/12/2012 4:59 AM, Maarten Wiltink wrote:
> "Satya" <sat...@satyaonline.cjb.net> wrote in message
> news:slrnk2a2p2...@gort.thesatya.com...

> It's harder than it sounds to tell her to go do what she likes, because
> I don't want to appear pushy (let alone ruin her life through staying
> unemployed)

The book she wants is _What Color is Your Parachute_. There's a new
edition every year with incremental changes. Any year will do.

It'll take a solid eighty to two hundred hours to go through, but by the
time she's done all the exercises they'll be no question what she'll
want to do for work - and really, in life.

obAdvocacy: Va zl pnfr, V jrag guebhtu gur obbx nobhg gjb lrnef ntb naq
hfrq gur erfhygf gb ynaq zl pheerag tvt(f). Va zl pnfr, vg gheaf bhg V
qba'g jnag gb or n cebwrpg znantrq ohg n freire naq qbphzragngvba
fcrpvnyvfg va n fznyy (20-200) crefba pbzcnal jub jbexf va rvgure
perngvir be rqhpngvbany raqrnibef.

Abj, V jbex ng n fznyy pbyyrtr va obfgba.zn.hf, znxvat yrff zbarl guna V
hfrq gb naq npghnyyl ybbxvat sbejneq gb jbex rirel qnl - naq vs lbh'ir
ernq nal bs zl oyngurevat bire gur cnfg gjb lrnef, gung'f n Irel Tbbq
Cynpr sbe zr.

>and I don't want to go on about how great my life is, and
> that being lucky is the result of setting yourself up for it.

Then, don't. I've used the phrase "Luck is an intersection of
preparation and opportunity".

[Cipher]

On 8/12/2012 4:13 AM, Kevin Goebel wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Aug 2012 11:39:47 +1200, Craig Miskell <cr...@stroppykitten.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 12/08/12 1:12 AM, Cipher wrote:
>>> Now, if someone can explain to me how I can have this social paralysis
>>> and still have managed success as a technical trainer and/or presenter
>>> to a room full of utter strangers, I'd be listening.
>> I'm similar, and I've given it much thought. I think it's to do with
>> control. In the generalised social situation, what's supposed to happen
>> is outside your control. People will interact, something is expected,
>> but FSM-knows what that is.
>
>> In the training/presenting scenario, everyone is looking to you to Make
>> Shit Happen. You're in control, the expectations are clear, and in some
>> senses it's not actually all that social (although there are clearly
>> inter-personal factors at play in whether the training/presenting is
>> successful).
>
>> Just my $0.02
>
> So, a geek-friendly solution is obvious, is it not?

Not in my case. Geek friendly, if I'm not a presenter or on stage, is
painful to me. I can handle talking to sales weasels at trade shows
(LISA, VMware recently) because I know full well their game (sell me
shit I don't need).

V jnf cneg bs n cnary bs sbhe ng Fcvprjbexf Hacyhttrq erpragyl, jurer jr
nf Fcvprjbexf hfref tbg gb gnxr dhrfgvbaf sebz znexrgref nobhg jung
jbexf, jung qbrfa'g, naq ubj gb rssrpgviryl znexrg gb hf va gur
pbzzhavgl. V npprcgrq orvat ba gur cnary ba n juvz, naq bayl n qnl yngre
qvq vg bpphe gb zr jung jnf ragnvyrq.

Oyvaq cnavp frg va.

Vg ghearq bhg bxnl va gur raq, ohg V'q ybir gb frr gur ivqrb bs hf hc
gurer gb qrgrezvar ubj zhpu bs zl oenva fpernzvat EHA NJNL! EHA NJNL!
jnf nccnerag qhevat gur D&N.

Bu, naq gur nafjref jr tnir jrer havirefny: Qba'g shpxvat pnyy hf; rznvy
vf cersrenoyr; ubhaq hf naq lbh'yy tb gb gur obggbz bs gur cvyr; fgnl
pbaarpgrq jura lbh qba'g unir nalguvat gb fryy; trg gur evtug nafjref
gur svefg gvzr; jr unir ab gvzr gb fvsg guebhtu ohyyfuvg naq pna qrgrpg
vg cerggl ernqvyl.

[Maarten Wiltink]

"Cipher" <nota...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:k08bi2$mki$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 8/12/2012 4:59 AM, Maarten Wiltink wrote:

>> It's harder than it sounds to tell her to go do what she likes, because
>> I don't want to appear pushy (let alone ruin her life through staying
>> unemployed)
>
> The book she wants is _What Color is Your Parachute_. There's a new
> edition every year with incremental changes. Any year will do.
>
> It'll take a solid eighty to two hundred hours to go through, but by the
> time she's done all the exercises they'll be no question what she'll
> want to do for work - and really, in life.

Oh, that's fine. She already knows. She's just afraid to switch to it.

I'd be. Ceteris paribus, I'd much rather apply for a job in which I have
a quarter of a century of experience than for one where I don't.

Tebrgwrf,
Maarten Wiltink

[Joe Thompson]

On 2012-08-11, Cipher <nota...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Now, if someone can explain to me how I can have this social paralysis
> and still have managed success as a technical trainer and/or presenter
> to a room full of utter strangers, I'd be listening.

Not just strangers, but mostly strangers you'll never see again and have
no particular connection to, in the training scenario. Plus, as
elsewhere noted you have a degree of control over the interaction that
isn't present with, say, a cocktail party. -- Joe
--
Joe Thompson | Sysadmin - Scientificist
E-mail addresses in headers are valid. | http://www.orion-com.com/
"There is no way my emacs is ever getting a credit card!" -- Matthew Vernon

[James Coupe]

Cipher <nota...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Now, if someone can explain to me how I can have this social paralysis
>and still have managed success as a technical trainer and/or presenter
>to a room full of utter strangers, I'd be listening.

My personal experience is less to do with control (which other people
have suggested) and more to do with purpose, leading into ice-breaking.

If I have a specific, pre-defined reason to talk to you, it cuts through
all the layers of indecision.

"Hi Cipher, I'm James, I'm here to teach you about your Bambleweenie
Vector Plotter Mk 5. Shall we get started?"

Whereas in a purely social situation - say, trying to meet MOTAS in a
bar - I have multiple layers of indecision:

1) Do I come across and talk to you?

2) If yes, what should I say? Even honest simple openings can sound
like cheesy chat-up lines, so what do I do? *frets*

3a)If I'm rejected, will that make me feel crappy for the rest of the
evening and I'd rather not deal with that right now?

3b)If I'm not rejected, where does it go from there?

And so on, with many more layers of doubt and uncertainty.

--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

[Graham Reed]

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> writes:
> 3b)If I'm not rejected, where does it go from there?

3b is much harder to deal with than it should. Especially since there's
levels of not being rejected.

Every now and then someone cuts right through all the BS, but damn a lot
of people suck at just coming out and saying, "would you like to
boink?". Even in a meet-people-to-boink context.

--
"Dead people don't spam."

[Garrett Wollman]

There are a lot of contexts, and a lot of people, for whom that would
be wholly inappropriate (even if the ultimate result would involve
boinking at some point). Wanting a relationship and wanting a screw
are two very different things. Of course, one can be too cautious,
even in a situation (like the workplace) where caution is abundantly
necessary; this may well be at the core of what's making me feel awful
right now.[1]

-GAWollman

[1] As in, if I had felt comfortable saying something two years ago, I
might have felt worse then, and in all likelihood I'd be just as
lonely now, but at least I would be through to the other side.

[Cipher]

On 8/13/2012 3:46 AM, James Coupe wrote:
> Cipher <nota...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Now, if someone can explain to me how I can have this social paralysis
>> and still have managed success as a technical trainer and/or presenter
>> to a room full of utter strangers, I'd be listening.
>
> My personal experience is less to do with control (which other people
> have suggested) and more to do with purpose, leading into ice-breaking.
>
> If I have a specific, pre-defined reason to talk to you, it cuts through
> all the layers of indecision.
>
> "Hi Cipher, I'm James, I'm here to teach you about your Bambleweenie
> Vector Plotter Mk 5. Shall we get started?"
>
> Whereas in a purely social situation - say, trying to meet MOTAS in a
> bar - I have multiple layers of indecision:
>
> 1) Do I come across and talk to you?
>
> 2) If yes, what should I say? Even honest simple openings can sound
> like cheesy chat-up lines, so what do I do? *frets*
>
> 3a)If I'm rejected, will that make me feel crappy for the rest of the
> evening and I'd rather not deal with that right now?
>
> 3b)If I'm not rejected, where does it go from there?
>
> And so on, with many more layers of doubt and uncertainty.

So, social scenes result in a deadlock for processing an over-long and
branching decision tree?

I can totally see that.

[Wojciech Derechowski]

On 2012-08-13, Garrett Wollman <wol...@bimajority.org> wrote:
> Of course, one can be too cautious,
> even in a situation (like the workplace) where caution is abundantly
> necessary; this may well be at the core of what's making me feel awful
> right now.[1]

> [1] As in, if I had felt comfortable saying something two years ago, I
> might have felt worse then, and in all likelihood I'd be just as
> lonely now, but at least I would be through to the other side.

So you've waited too long and now she's seeing another guy from the lab,
which you learned about only last week or so? Don't say anything, yet,
no matter how experienced she might seem, and remember: if you think
you have nothing to offer apart from the mortgage in the bad part
of town, you have already lost.

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <slrnk2jgpq...@um5000.mystora.com>,

Wojciech Derechowski <wdd...@um5000.mystora.com> wrote:

>So you've waited too long and now she's seeing another guy from the lab,
>which you learned about only last week or so?

Actually, that's pretty far from the situation, but I don't really
want to go into it, at least not in public, and I don't know her side
of it beyond what she's said to me, nor would I pry.

>Don't say anything, yet, no matter how experienced she might seem,

Experienced? Don't think so, based on what she did freely say to me.

>and remember: if you think you have nothing to offer apart from the
>mortgage in the bad part of town, you have already lost.

I wouldn't consider that something I had to offer, more a mistake that
I made back when it seemed a reasonable thing to do and I was little
concerned for how (even more) socially isolated it would make me.
I've lived here for more than eleven years now, and the only people I
know in this town are my dentist and my boss. Of course, I lived in a
large apartment building for seven years before that and never met any
of my neighbors (at least, not to the point of introduction), most of
whom were students at a time when I was still reasonably close in age.

-GAWollman

[Robert Uhl]

Cipher <nota...@hotmail.com> writes:

>>> Abezny crbcyr ner fbpvny crbcyr;
>>
>> Gubfr svir jbeqf znxr zr natel.
>
> V jbhyq fnl "abezny" va guvf frafr vf zber nxva gb gur zngurzngvpny
> abez, v.r., jr'er gjb be zber fvtzn bhg sebz *bofreirq orunivbe* bs gur
> cbchyngvba[1].

[favc]

> [1] Va gur fgngvfgvpny frafr.

Gung'f ubj V zrnag vg--abg va gur frafr gung bar _bhtug_ gb or abezny,
ohg va gur frafr gung vs bar vf abg gura yvsr vf zber qvssvphyg, naq
guhf gung vs bar vf abg gura bar bhtug gb gel gb ng yrnfg or pybfre gb,
vs bar jvfurf gb fhpprrq jvgu abezny crbcyr.

--
Never forget those that were killed. And never let rest those that
killed them. --Major Douglas A. Zembiec

[Wojciech Derechowski]

On 2012-08-14, Garrett Wollman <wol...@bimajority.org> wrote:
> In article <slrnk2jgpq...@um5000.mystora.com>,
> Wojciech Derechowski <wdd...@um5000.mystora.com> wrote:
>
>>So you've waited too long and now she's seeing another guy from the lab,
>>which you learned about only last week or so?
>
> Actually, that's pretty far from the situation, but I don't really
> want to go into it, at least not in public, and I don't know her side
> of it beyond what she's said to me, nor would I pry.

OK, then look around in your neighbourhood. Remember Lily Tomlin
in Blue In the Face?

[Wojciech Derechowski]

Oh excuse me. I meant Mel Gorham.

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <slrnk2jq19...@um5000.mystora.com>,

Wojciech Derechowski <wdd...@um5000.mystora.com> wrote:

>OK, then look around in your neighbourhood. Remember Lily Tomlin
>in Blue In the Face?

No. Is that a reference to a film or something?

[Wojciech Derechowski]

On 2012-08-14, Garrett Wollman <wol...@bimajority.org> wrote:

> In article <slrnk2jq19...@um5000.mystora.com>,
> Wojciech Derechowski <wdd...@um5000.mystora.com> wrote:
>
>>OK, then look around in your neighbourhood. Remember Lily Tomlin
>>in Blue In the Face?
>
> No. Is that a reference to a film or something?

Let's see. Yes, it is a reference to a film released in 1995:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112541/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_in_the_Face

There must be some potential in the working-class Brazilian
neighbourhood to produce someone like Gorham's Violet
in that film.

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <slrnk2l5tf...@um5000.mystora.com>,

Wojciech Derechowski <wdd...@um5000.mystora.com> wrote:

>There must be some potential in the working-class Brazilian
>neighbourhood to produce someone like Gorham's Violet
>in that film.

A couple in my condo complex was arrested for running an unlicensed
cosmetic surgery clinic in their basement. (Brazil is the
breast-enlargement capital of the world, IIRC. My tastes run rather
in the other direction, and in any case my neighbors are mostly young
families with small children, not single women.)

[Howard S Shubs]

In article <871ujad...@7deadly.org>, Graham Reed <gr...@pobox.com>
wrote:

"Yes, but not with you." Ow. I bet that happens, too.

--
Don't bother with piddly crap like "gun control".
Life is 100% fatal. Ban it.

[Alan J Rosenthal]

wol...@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) writes:
>(And outside of work, the "social" things people
>do while seeking a mate are absolutely revolting....)

Apparently to seek a mate, the male moose digs a hole of size something
like two feet cubed, fills it with urine, and dunks his head into it.

-- aj "o/~ she's in love with me, and I feel smelly o/~" r

[Alan J Rosenthal]

Cipher <nota...@hotmail.com> writes:
>Now, if someone can explain to me how I can have this social paralysis
>and still have managed success as a technical trainer and/or presenter
>to a room full of utter strangers, I'd be listening.

Improvised social contact and formal technical presentations are pretty
different from each other. You already know that plenty of people find
the latter more daunting than the former; so I think it's logical that
there could be people who find the former more daunting than the latter.

I'm really getting into Scottish Country Dancing these days, and one of
the things I like about it is the lack of improvisation. The dances are
a certain way, and you try to do exactly that. (Anyone nearby who wants
to see me make a series of mistakes punctuated by occasional bursts of
correctness should come to Dufferin Grove Thursday week; see the blurb
on the front page of http://www.rscdstoronto.org )

[Kevin Goebel]

Ok, someone has to type it first...

"Oh... that explains the potholes in most of the local bar's parking lots."

Kevin Goebel

[Wojciech Derechowski]

On 2012-08-14, Alan J Rosenthal <fl...@dgp.toronto.edu> wrote:
> wol...@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) writes:
>>(And outside of work, the "social" things people
>>do while seeking a mate are absolutely revolting....)
>
> Apparently to seek a mate, the male moose digs a hole of size something
> like two feet cubed, fills it with urine, and dunks his head into it.

Yeah, but how about the other people like sheep and cows and kangaroos?
Or bears and dogs and bats?

[Joe Zeff]

On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 07:49:18 +0000, Wojciech Derechowski wrote:

> Yeah, but how about the other people like sheep and cows and kangaroos?
> Or bears and dogs and bats?

AIUI, the main reason nobody's ever seriously tried to domesticate deer
is the amount of land needed for their courtship rituals. That's one of
the reasons that hunting was forbidden in The New Forrest: the kings used
to organize mass hunts to harvest the wild deer and preserve the meat to
provision their castles and ships.

--
Joe Zeff -- The Guy With The Sideburns:
http://www.zeff.us http://www.lasfs.info
A dirty mind is a joy forever.

[Zebee Johnstone]

In alt.sysadmin.recovery on 15 Aug 2012 19:42:50 GMT

Joe Zeff <the.guy.with....@lasfs.info> wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 07:49:18 +0000, Wojciech Derechowski wrote:
>
>> Yeah, but how about the other people like sheep and cows and kangaroos?
>> Or bears and dogs and bats?
>
> AIUI, the main reason nobody's ever seriously tried to domesticate deer
> is the amount of land needed for their courtship rituals. That's one of
> the reasons that hunting was forbidden in The New Forrest: the kings used
> to organize mass hunts to harvest the wild deer and preserve the meat to
> provision their castles and ships.

They don't domesticate? News to the deer farms I know.

Venison was eaten yes, but I dunno it was a major food source compared
to domestic animals.

Hunting was a war practice, I don't think it was about provisioning
as a standard thing. And a strong class marker as well. Sociologically
fascinating...

I could be wrong of course, got sources?

Zebee

[Brian Kantor]

Joe Zeff <the.guy.with....@lasfs.info> wrote:
>AIUI, the main reason nobody's ever seriously tried to domesticate deer
>is the amount of land needed for their courtship rituals.

FSVO domesticate: there is a rather well-known park in Nara Japan (near
Todaiji Temple) where the deer will wander up to you and nudge you until
you give them a snack - folks even sell deer cookies at stands around
the park. Wikischmertz estimates the deer population there at about 1200.
- Brian