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All Software Sucks at the worst possible time.

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Joe Zeff

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Apr 23, 2006, 3:33:30 PM4/23/06
to
My 80gig hard disk had been partitioned 8 for Win 98, 10 for DeadRat
9, the rest for expansion. I've been getting tight on space, so a
friend gave me a set of FC 5 CDs. I used a partitioning tool to
expand the Win 98 partition to half the disk, removed Grub and made
sure all's orking. So far, so good. Alas, CDs 1 and 2 of the install
set fail check. No FC. I downloaded the two ISOs and burned them.
My fscking CD burning software[1] didn't make the first one bootable.
After monkeying with paramaters, I ended up with two CDs with the ISOs
on them AS ISOs. More coasters. My friend tells me that he burned
them under Linux and it Just Worked.

The same friend had sent me an upgrade to the software. Being
cautious, I copied the folder to a new location before running it.
Said version was a demo, that claims to have expired and won't run.
Move back the original version and now it does the same. Sent email
to tech support. Their autobot sends back, among other things, a link
to the latest update of my version. Tried it. It thinks it's a demo.
Now I have no Linux, no buring software and no time until tonight to
play. I'll probably have to reinstall DeadRat 9 and use its buring
software to get the CDs working.

We all know that ASS, and here's proof that it knows just when showing
its suckatude will make the most trouble.

[1]Not named Caligula, but close enough.

--
Joe Zeff
The Guy With the Sideburns
Debating unix flavors in the context of anything Microsoft is like
talking about which ice cream flavor tastes least like sawdust with
turpentine sauce.
http://www.lasfs.org http://home.earthlink.net/~sidebrnz

Olivier Galibert

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Apr 23, 2006, 4:15:13 PM4/23/06
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On 2006-04-23, Joe Zeff <the.guy.with....@lasfs.info> wrote:
> Alas, CDs 1 and 2 of the install set fail check.

Check as in media check at the start of the install? It's about as
reliable as WinME. Broken by design. Ignore it.

OG.

Joe Zeff

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Apr 23, 2006, 4:30:48 PM4/23/06
to

I tried that, as the documentation warned about that. In this case,
it was right. I've managed to reinstall Caligula, with a key from a
crack program. If I burn with DOS filenames, it orks, but isn't
bootable; if I turn that off, with either ISO version, it just puts
the ISO on the CD as is; useless.

--
Joe Zeff
The Guy With the Sideburns

I'm a pessimist, not a masochist.
http://www.lasfs.org http://home.earthlink.net/~sidebrnz

James Gray

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Apr 24, 2006, 12:00:38 AM4/24/06
to
Joe Zeff wrote:

> We all know that ASS, and here's proof that it knows just when showing
> its suckatude will make the most trouble.

That tale reminds me of a recent update CD sent from a venduh in CD-RW
format. Problem: ye olde crusty machine that needed the update can't read
CD-RW, but it CAN read CD-R. So I rip an image from the rewritable and I
was about to burn a new copy...except someone decided to "borrow" my CD-R
spindle and it was locked up in the guilty party's office (insert grumble
about middle-mangler assuming the IT consumables are available for him to
pilfer).

So there I was, 6pm on a Friday night and nowhere that sells CDR's nearby.
Fsck it - I went home and sorted it on Monday.
--
James Gray ja...@grayoffline.id.au s/off/on/
Senior Unix Administrator Sydney, NSW, Australia
Let a fool hold his tongue and he will pass for a sage.
-- Publilius Syrus

James Gray

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Apr 24, 2006, 12:14:34 AM4/24/06
to
Joe Zeff wrote:

> We all know that ASS, and here's proof that it knows just when showing
> its suckatude will make the most trouble.

That tale reminds me of a recent update CD sent from a venduh in CD-RW

David Cameron Staples

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Apr 24, 2006, 12:29:45 AM4/24/06
to
in Mon, 24 Apr 2006 14:14:34 +1000, James Gray in hoc locum scripsit:

> Joe Zeff wrote:
>
>> We all know that ASS, and here's proof that it knows just when showing
>> its suckatude will make the most trouble.
>

> That tale reminds me of ...
> ... and sorted it on Monday.

Is there an echo in here?

--
David Cameron Staples | staples AT cs DOT mu DOT oz DOT au
Melbourne University | Computer Science | Technical Services
IRC is just multiplayer notepad. -- bash.org/?85514

mrob...@worldnet.att.net

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Apr 24, 2006, 9:30:16 AM4/24/06
to
James Gray <not_...@see.sig> wrote:
>Joe Zeff wrote:
>> We all know that ASS, and here's proof that it knows just when showing
>> its suckatude will make the most trouble.
>
>That tale reminds me of a recent update CD sent from a venduh in CD-RW
>format. Problem: ye olde crusty machine that needed the update can't
>read CD-RW, but it CAN read CD-R.

At $ORK[-1], I was handed one of the lapdogs and asked to do a clean
install on it. Fine. Banners with A02...website says current is A11.[0]
Probably want to update that then. Make boot floppy on desktop PC.
Vaguely recall some trouble with the floppy drive on this lapdog, but try
it anyway. Loud noises. Pull floppy out. Pull drive out. Fish out
extra shutter from some previous floppy. Try again. Loud noises. Well,
at least they bought the overnight parts service; phone in the request
for a new floppy. Still want to update it though, but of course, venduh
doesn't offer a bootable CD of the update. Maybe I can make one.
*clickity click* *incantations* OK, I *think* I have a bootable CD-R
now. It seems to boot... and the update goes through! Score!

Better check what else is new. Let's see... drivers I can do later...
but two more firmware updates I should probably do now. *clickity click*
Next CD boots... video update goes through... Damn, I'm clever! *clickity
click* Next CD boots... "Hi, I'm going to update your CD drive firmware!
Yep, you have one of the models I know about. Are you ready?"

I said yes.

I heard the drive spin up.

I watched the progress bar start moving on the screen.

I suddenly wondered if trying to update the CD drive firmware from a CD
was the really the right thing to do.

I see the progress bar stop moving.

Apparently, it wasn't the right thing to do.

At least I got a different person on the phone when I phoned in the
request for a new CD drive.

Matt Roberds

[0] You can tell it's Dull.

James Gray

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Apr 24, 2006, 3:22:23 AM4/24/06
to
David Cameron Staples wrote:

> in Mon, 24 Apr 2006 14:14:34 +1000, James Gray in hoc locum scripsit:
>
>> Joe Zeff wrote:
>>
>>> We all know that ASS, and here's proof that it knows just when showing
>>> its suckatude will make the most trouble.
>>
>> That tale reminds me of ...
>> ... and sorted it on Monday.
>
> Is there an echo in here?

(At the risk of pushing the UI boundaries...)

Yeh, yrnsabqr decided it was too speshul to delete the last post
from /var/spool/news/out.going so sent it twice before I saw it saw up
here. Deletion done manually and balance restored to the force. Excuse me
while I beat some sense into the recalcitrant news swerver!

Apologies folks.

Paul Hurley

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Apr 25, 2006, 4:03:36 PM4/25/06
to
mrob...@worldnet.att.net wrote:

>James Gray <not_...@see.sig> wrote:
>
>
>>Joe Zeff wrote:
>>
>>
>
>

<snip/>

>I heard the drive spin up.
>
>I watched the progress bar start moving on the screen.
>
>I suddenly wondered if trying to update the CD drive firmware from a CD
>was the really the right thing to do.
>
>I see the progress bar stop moving.
>
>Apparently, it wasn't the right thing to do.
>
>

Is there a technical term for that feeling. I'd love to know, cos it's
almost impossible to describe without having been there...

Paul.

--
Paul Hurley <http://www.paulhurley.co.uk/site_map/> http://www.paulhurley.co.uk/
The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss - HHGTG

Tanuki

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Apr 25, 2006, 4:23:33 PM4/25/06
to
In <444e8097$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>, Paul Hurley <Kill_Spamm
ers_at_paulhurle...@Nospam.com> said

>mrob...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>>James Gray <not_...@see.sig> wrote:
>>>Joe Zeff wrote:
><snip/>
>
>>I heard the drive spin up.
>>
>>I watched the progress bar start moving on the screen.
>>
>>I suddenly wondered if trying to update the CD drive firmware from a CD
>>was the really the right thing to do.
>>
>>I see the progress bar stop moving.
>>
>>Apparently, it wasn't the right thing to do.
>>
>
>Is there a technical term for that feeling. I'd love to know, cos it's
>almost impossible to describe without having been there...

The "Ohnosecond" has been suggested for that moment of realisation
that comes from firing off a recursive file-delete in the utterly-
wrong directory - though I'd rather like to suggest the
"Sphinctosecond" to reflect that brief arse-tightening sensation
which inevitably accompanies the realisation that Things Have
Just Become Not What They Should Be And It's Your Fault.
--
Tanuki
"We don't release our software. It escapes from the lab while
nobody is looking, and then we have to go out with the rifles
and the bulk-erasers to hunt it down" --From _A_W_O_L_

Jim

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Apr 25, 2006, 4:45:31 PM4/25/06
to
Tanuki <mailer...@canismajor.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> >>I suddenly wondered if trying to update the CD drive firmware from a CD
> >>was the really the right thing to do.
> >>
> >>I see the progress bar stop moving.
> >>
> >>Apparently, it wasn't the right thing to do.
> >>
> >
> >Is there a technical term for that feeling. I'd love to know, cos it's
> >almost impossible to describe without having been there...
>
> The "Ohnosecond" has been suggested for that moment of realisation
> that comes from firing off a recursive file-delete in the utterly-
> wrong directory - though I'd rather like to suggest the
> "Sphinctosecond" to reflect that brief arse-tightening sensation
> which inevitably accompanies the realisation that Things Have
> Just Become Not What They Should Be And It's Your Fault.

From 'The Meaning Of Liff' comes the word 'Ely', which means (from
memory) "the feeling of the first, tiniest inkling that something
somewhere has gone horribly wrong".

Jim
--
Find me at http://www.UrsaMinorBeta.co.uk
1ph j00 c@n re4d 7h15
y0u'r3 4 fu|<in9 |\/|0r0|\|
- t-shirt worn by the Grammar Nazi from 'Queen Of Wands'

Mike Andrews

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Apr 25, 2006, 4:47:58 PM4/25/06
to

>>James Gray <not_...@see.sig> wrote:

>>>Joe Zeff wrote:

> <snip/>

>>I heard the drive spin up.

>>I watched the progress bar start moving on the screen.

>>I suddenly wondered if trying to update the CD drive firmware from a CD
>>was the really the right thing to do.

>>I see the progress bar stop moving.

>>Apparently, it wasn't the right thing to do.

> Is there a technical term for that feeling. I'd love to know, cos it's
> almost impossible to describe without having been there...

The term I have heard used by fighter jocks, and particularly by
Wild Weasel crewmembers, is "leemer", defined as a large injection of
ice-cold urine to the heart. Who would know better?

--
"This system operates under martial law. The constitution is suspended. You
have no rights except as declared by the area commander. Violators will be
shot. Repeat violators will be repeatedly shot...." -from "A_W_O_L"

Robert Sneddon

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Apr 25, 2006, 5:38:12 PM4/25/06
to
In message <1heddnk.1c4qrgzxa2mrkN%j...@magrathea.plus.com>, Jim
<j...@magrathea.plus.com> writes

>From 'The Meaning Of Liff' comes the word 'Ely', which means (from
>memory) "the feeling of the first, tiniest inkling that something
>somewhere has gone horribly wrong".

Yes, that fits. I was working only a few miles from Ely when,
shortly[1] before I left the company, I reformatted the development
server's hard drive[2][3].

[1] That afternoon, actually.

[2] the developers were responsible for backing up their own codebases.
From what I gathered during my exit interview, I seemed to be the only
one who had actually done this in less than a geological time period.

[3] I thought it was a floppy drive. It swore blind to me it was a
floppy drive. It let me reformat it like it was a floppy drive. It
wasn't a floppy drive, oh no. Seriously Ely.
--
To reply, my gmail address is nojay1 Robert Sneddon

stevo

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Apr 26, 2006, 2:19:46 AM4/26/06
to
Paul Hurley <Kill_Spammers_at_paul...@nospam.com> wrote:
> mrob...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>
>>James Gray <not_...@see.sig> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Joe Zeff wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> <snip/>
>
>>I heard the drive spin up.
>>
>>I watched the progress bar start moving on the screen.
>>
>>I suddenly wondered if trying to update the CD drive firmware from a CD
>>was the really the right thing to do.
>>
>>I see the progress bar stop moving.
>>
>>Apparently, it wasn't the right thing to do.
>>
>>
>
> Is there a technical term for that feeling. I'd love to know, cos it's
> almost impossible to describe without having been there...
>
I have[1] always used 'svaha' which is supposedly a term for that
feelilng you get just as you drop a plate, but before it's hit the
ground and you can only watch it fall.

[1] Based on the Charles De Lint book of the same name

--
Stevo st...@madcelt.org
Chromosomes and Genes, spawn these faithful scenes
Evolution can be mean. There's no dumb-ass vaccine
Jimmy Buffet - Permanent Reminder of a Temporary Feeling

detha

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Apr 26, 2006, 4:38:10 AM4/26/06
to
Paul Hurley wrote:
>
>
> mrob...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>
>> James Gray <not_...@see.sig> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Joe Zeff wrote:
>>>
>>
>>
> <snip/>
>
>> I heard the drive spin up.
>>
>> I watched the progress bar start moving on the screen.
>>
>> I suddenly wondered if trying to update the CD drive firmware from a CD
>> was the really the right thing to do.
>>
>> I see the progress bar stop moving.
>>
>> Apparently, it wasn't the right thing to do.
>>
>>
>
> Is there a technical term for that feeling. I'd love to know, cos it's
> almost impossible to describe without having been there...
>
> Paul.
>

Ignisecond comes to mind (uggc://jjj.hajbeqf.pbz/hajbeq/vtavfrpbaq.ugzy)

My first experience with this was in the days of MFM disk controllers,
where a jump to the appropriate ROM location would initialize the disk
from scratch. Some C program had a problem with uninitialized function
pointers, and 'Debug|Run - tock tock tock tock'. There be balance, at
least something got initialized.

D

Mike Andrews

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Apr 26, 2006, 9:36:02 AM4/26/06
to
detha <mea...@invalid.tld> wrote:
> Paul Hurley wrote:

>> Is there a technical term for that feeling. I'd love to know, cos it's
>> almost impossible to describe without having been there...
>>
>> Paul.
>>

> Ignisecond comes to mind (uggc://jjj.hajbeqf.pbz/hajbeq/vtavfrpbaq.ugzy)

> My first experience with this was in the days of MFM disk controllers,
> where a jump to the appropriate ROM location would initialize the disk
> from scratch. Some C program had a problem with uninitialized function
> pointers, and 'Debug|Run - tock tock tock tock'. There be balance, at
> least something got initialized.

Results of pointing lynx to that URL:

You're not allowed to yoink our bandwidth with this evil device of yours.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

If you have questions regarding this message, please see the forums: Nanovox Community Forum

FireFox pulls it down just fine, though. Assholes.

--
Marriage is not a commitment. Children are not a commitment.
A weekly radio program is a _REAL_ commitment.

Ron Parker

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Apr 26, 2006, 9:50:00 AM4/26/06
to
On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 13:36:02 +0000 (UTC), Mike Andrews wrote:
> Results of pointing lynx to that URL:
>
> You're not allowed to yoink our bandwidth with this evil device of yours.

This message no doubt brought to you by the letters 'l', 'i', 'b', and 'w'.
Especially 'w'. Definitely not 'o'.

detha

unread,
Apr 26, 2006, 10:32:49 AM4/26/06
to
Mike Andrews wrote:
>
> Results of pointing lynx to that URL:
>
> You're not allowed to yoink our bandwidth with this evil device of yours.
> __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
> If you have questions regarding this message, please see the forums: Nanovox Community Forum
>
> FireFox pulls it down just fine, though. Assholes.
>

Apologies, didn't know that site was that brain-damaged, just happened
to be the first result that gurgled up when looking for a reference.

D

TimC

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Apr 26, 2006, 11:27:40 AM4/26/06
to
On 2006-04-26, stevo (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

> Paul Hurley <Kill_Spammers_at_paul...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> Is there a technical term for that feeling. I'd love to know, cos it's
>> almost impossible to describe without having been there...
>>
> I have[1] always used 'svaha' which is supposedly a term for that
> feelilng you get just as you drop a plate, but before it's hit the
> ground and you can only watch it fall.

And almost ebg13s appropriately.

--
TimC
Chairman: We continue with an afternoon of numerical stimulations.
-- An astronomy talk

David Scheidt

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Apr 26, 2006, 11:37:50 AM4/26/06
to
detha <mea...@invalid.tld> wrote:

It works fine in the terminal-based borser I use. Maybe they don't
like Mike?

David P. Murphy

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Apr 26, 2006, 12:00:02 PM4/26/06
to
Robert Sneddon <fr...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Yes, that fits. I was working only a few miles from Ely when,
> shortly[1] before I left the company, I reformatted the development
> server's hard drive
>

> [1] That afternoon, actually.

I see no cause-and-effect here.

ok
dpm
--
David P. Murphy
systems programmer
http://www.myths.com/~dpm/
mailto:dpm_u...@myths.com

Peter Corlett

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Apr 26, 2006, 2:07:22 PM4/26/06
to
Tanuki <mailer...@canismajor.demon.co.uk> wrote:
[...]

> The "Ohnosecond" has been suggested for that moment of realisation that
> comes from firing off a recursive file-delete in the utterly- wrong
> directory - though I'd rather like to suggest the "Sphinctosecond" to
> reflect that brief arse-tightening sensation which inevitably accompanies
> the realisation that Things Have Just Become Not What They Should Be And
> It's Your Fault.

They've cried wolf so often with stuff apparently Being My Fault that nobody
seems to notice or care any more on the odd occasion I really do screw up.

--
I've never understood how anyone can like showers - my experience has always
been that in a shower the water always gets into your Gin&Tonic, something that
only occasionally troubles me while relaxing in the bath.
- Tanuki in the Monastery

Joe Zeff

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Apr 26, 2006, 2:51:26 PM4/26/06
to
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 19:33:30 GMT, Joe Zeff
<the.guy.with....@lasfs.info> wrote:

>My friend tells me that he burned
>them under Linux and it Just Worked.

Update. I re-installed DeadRat 9, and used an un-named, FOSS program
to burn the CDs and indeed, It Just Worked. Alas, the only one of the
set he'd given me that was good was the "rescue CD[1]" that came with
it. Eventually, I was installing. But Wait! It could upgrade my
DeadRat. OK, I let it do that, figuring that it would ask me about
packages. No, and I'd done a rather minimal installation.

The upgrade was Very Slow. When it rebooted, it couldn't get the
mouse orking under X. Seems it'd managed to nuke the "file" in /dev
that points to it, although it orked on the console.

Instead of trying to fix it, I restarted the install, had it nuke and
re-do from scratch. Went faster. Alas, the only thing on the boot
menu was my Winderz partition. This is what I found out what a
festering piece of crud that "rescue CD" was.

However, I had a different rescue CD, small enough to fit on a credit
card sized CD. I'd used it before, and knew how it orked.[2]
Reaching in, I found that the Linux entry in teho.pbas was being
concealed.[3] After doing what seemed reasonably obvious, I tried
again and it orked. Still don't have everything set the way I want,
but as it was, it was about 3 AM when I gave up and went to bed.

[1]Yes, it did boot when I tested it, but unless you're a Linux guru
and know everything about a command line, it's not much help.
[2]Among other things, it sets things up so that it's easy to reach
your system even if you don't remember what's on which partition, or
the command to get a list of them.
[3]UI obfuscated, for obvious reasons.

--
Joe Zeff
The Guy With the Sideburns

Every silver lining has a great big dark black cloud.
http://www.lasfs.org http://home.earthlink.net/~sidebrnz

mrob...@worldnet.att.net

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Apr 27, 2006, 3:11:13 AM4/27/06
to
detha <mea...@invalid.tld> wrote:
>Ignisecond comes to mind (uggc://jjj.hajbeqf.pbz/hajbeq/vtavfrpbaq.ugzy)

Stolen without attribution from Rich Hall's "Sniglets".

>My first experience with this was in the days of MFM disk controllers,
>where a jump to the appropriate ROM location would initialize the disk
>from scratch.

g800:5 . I think.

Matt Roberds

Random Data

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Apr 27, 2006, 6:13:25 AM4/27/06
to
On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 07:11:13 +0000, mroberds wrote:

> g800:5 . I think.

g=800:c rings bells for me. I *really* can't be arsed dredging any harder
though.

--
Dave Hughes | da...@hired-goons.net
There's nothing in cat behaviour that can't be
remedied with a shotgun - Theo Bekkers, a.b.

Don Quixote

unread,
Apr 27, 2006, 11:31:02 AM4/27/06
to
Random Data might have said:

>On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 07:11:13 +0000, mroberds wrote:
>
>> g800:5 . I think.
>
>g=800:c rings bells for me. I *really* can't be arsed dredging any harder
>though.

g=c800:5

obIf this is UI I _don't_ want, etc.


--
'After I started drinking yesterday I didn't do anything else stupid.
That would seem to speak for itself.'
Adam, in the Monastery.

Message has been deleted

Steve VanDevender

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Apr 27, 2006, 2:05:44 PM4/27/06
to
Randy the Random <ra...@bradakis.net> writes:

> Random Data writes:
>
>>g=800:c rings bells for me. I *really* can't be arsed dredging any harder
>>though.

> Nope. "debug g=c800:5" for most. Why are my neurons still retaining
> _that_?

For much the same reason we're still afraid of dinosaurs. It was so
dangerous that it got wired into your brain and you continue to fear it
even though it's long extinct.

--
Steve VanDevender "I ride the big iron" http://hexadecimal.uoregon.edu/
ste...@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu PGP keyprint 4AD7AF61F0B9DE87 522902969C0A7EE8
"bash awk grep perl sed df du, du-du du-du,
vi troff su fsck rm * halt LART LART LART!" -- the Swedish BOFH

Maarten Wiltink

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Apr 27, 2006, 5:25:17 PM4/27/06
to
"Don Quixote" <spam...@whitehouse.gov.invalid> wrote in message
news:7jo15290812n6fg9a...@fishead.news.meowkitty.com...
[...]
> g=c800:5

Looks logical. What was in the first five bytes, a far jump to a
less immediately damaging future?

Tebrgwrf,
Maarten Wiltink


Brian Kantor

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Apr 27, 2006, 7:33:19 PM4/27/06
to
>Looks logical. What was in the first five bytes, a far jump to a
>less immediately damaging future?

Rom contents for bios extensions were located from C000:00 through
F600:00, on 2k paragraph boundaries. Each began with a paragraph
signature (0xAA, 0x55), a length byte (in 512 chunks), then code
to initialize the various data structures, link itself into the
BIOS call table, etc. The block had to checksum to zero. Usually
the first bit of code at location 4 was just a jump to somewhere
else in the extension rom. After that you could put any kind of
jump table you wanted.

I wish I didn't remember this. If it's UI to you, you have my sympathy.
- Brian

Rik Steenwinkel

unread,
Apr 27, 2006, 6:41:13 PM4/27/06
to
On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 21:25:17 UTC, "Maarten Wiltink"
<maa...@kittensandcats.net> persuaded newsservers all over the world to
carry the following:

} "Don Quixote" <spam...@whitehouse.gov.invalid> wrote in message
} news:7jo15290812n6fg9a...@fishead.news.meowkitty.com...
} [...]
} > g=c800:5
}
} Looks logical. What was in the first five bytes, a far jump to a
} less immediately damaging future?

Two marker bytes, followed by a jump.

--
// Rik Steenwinkel # VMS mercenary # Enschede, Netherlands
// 1024D/CDBAE5C1

detha

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Apr 28, 2006, 2:19:12 AM4/28/06
to
Bytes 0,1 ROM signature (AA 55, how creative of VOZ, under the
assumption that a floating bus would not generate those values), bytes
3,4,5 a long [well, 16 bit was looong in those days] jump to
initialization code like displaying logo's and messages, etc. Probably
network-booting cards still use this convention.

I learned all about extension ROMS when gur yno qrpvqrq gb chg fbzr
'frphevgl' pneqf va nyy CPf, rapelcgvat nyy qngn ba gur uneqqvfx, naq
ceriragvat gur obkra sebz obbgvat sebz sybccl. Tbbq wbo, jr arire
vairfgrq gur gvzr erdhverq gb oernx gur rapelcgvba, ohg gung jnfa'g
arrqrq naljnl, nf gur ybpny nqzva jnf fghcvq rabhtu gb vafgnyy na
rkgrafvba ebz fb *ur* pbhyq obbg sebz sybccl jvgubhg bcravat gur obk.
Uvg <fcnpr>PIYFCRP (gur cevpx'f vavgvnyf jrer PIY) qhevat obbg, vg jbhyq
ybnq genpx 37 frpgbe 5 be fbzr fhpu sebz gur sybccl, naq hfr gung sbe n
obbg frpgbe.

Maarten Wiltink

unread,
Apr 28, 2006, 3:46:12 AM4/28/06
to
"Brian Kantor" <br...@karoshi.ucsd.edu> wrote in message
news:e2rkbv$r08$1...@news1.ucsd.edu...

<rhetorical[0] question for no-longer-U I>

> Rom contents for bios extensions were located from C000:00 through
> F600:00, on 2k paragraph boundaries. Each began with a paragraph
> signature (0xAA, 0x55), a length byte (in 512 chunks), then code
> to initialize the various data structures, link itself into the
> BIOS call table, etc. The block had to checksum to zero. Usually
> the first bit of code at location 4 was just a jump to somewhere
> else in the extension rom. After that you could put any kind of
> jump table you wanted.

So that's what was behind the 'scanning for option ROMs'.


> I wish I didn't remember this. If it's UI to you, you have my sympathy.

Naah, not any more.

...Say, how does this mesh with the Format SVC being at offset 5? Were
you supposed to start every boot sequence by formatting your hard drive?
That would explain a lot.

Tebrgwrf,
Maarten Wiltink

[0] That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


Brian Kantor

unread,
Apr 28, 2006, 2:00:59 PM4/28/06
to
>...Say, how does this mesh with the Format SVC being at offset 5? Were
>you supposed to start every boot sequence by formatting your hard drive?

The init jump was in location :3,:4, after that a lot of programmers
put the rest of their jump table, so when you jumped to :5 you were
executing the second jump in the table, usually a longjump at :5,:6
Init jumped at :3.
- Brian

Alan J Rosenthal

unread,
Apr 28, 2006, 10:03:58 PM4/28/06
to
j...@magrathea.plus.com (Jim) writes:
>From 'The Meaning Of Liff' comes the word 'Ely', which means (from
>memory) "the feeling of the first, tiniest inkling that something
>somewhere has gone horribly wrong".

Oh, you mean a very good day?
(On the other days, you don't have a _feeling_ that something's gone wrong,
you have indisputable evidence...)

mrob...@worldnet.att.net

unread,
Apr 29, 2006, 2:32:46 PM4/29/06
to
Don Quixote <spam...@whitehouse.gov.invalid> wrote:
>Random Data might have said:
>>On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 07:11:13 +0000, mroberds wrote:
>>> g800:5 . I think.
>>
>>g=800:c rings bells for me. I *really* can't be arsed dredging any harder
>>though.
>
>g=c800:5

Interesting. My neurons just seem to drop bits, while Dave's drops some
bits and scrambles others around.

In my defense (?), I will observe that I never had to use that command
in anger. I think I tried it once for fun on a old machine with the
appropriate hardware (this was well after VQR had established itself)
just to see what it did. Yep, it did what it said on the tin.

Matt Roberds

Maarten Wiltink

unread,
May 1, 2006, 5:19:30 AM5/1/06
to
"Brian Kantor" <br...@karoshi.ucsd.edu> wrote in message
news:e2tl8r$20s$1...@news1.ucsd.edu...

<MFM/ISA UI>

Thank you. I'm sure some poor sod was caused great pain by that, which
was kind of the point. *I* certainly didn't need to know it - although I
do have the relevant hardware in my junk cl^W^Wmuseum chest, with a firm
conviction never even to try to use it.

Tebrgwrf,
Maarten Wiltink


TimC

unread,
May 1, 2006, 6:12:08 AM5/1/06
to
On 2006-05-01, Maarten Wiltink (aka Bruce)

was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

I tend to pull apart the stuff in my personal museum, thereby
procluding accidentally putting any of it to use.

I really wish I could work out the pinouts to the motor of the
incomplete 1GB, 13KG Seagate (IIRC) drive used in that cray. I just
want to hear it spin up. Perhaps amuse the cat with (I caught one of
them putting her paws on the platter and spinning, repeating for
several minutes. Cat's got the same simple minded sense of amusement
I do).

RAM chips from old UNIX servers make lovely keyrings. A bit fragile
though. Anyone got a method to keep the ICs from eventually falling
off with fatigue?

--
TimC
You see, wire telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat. You pull
his tail in New York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles. Do you
understand this? And radio operates exactly the same way: you send
signals here, they receive them there. The only difference is that
there is no cat. -- Albie E. on radios.

Message has been deleted

Dave Brown

unread,
May 1, 2006, 6:59:09 AM5/1/06
to
TimC <tcon...@no.spam.accepted.here-astro.swin.edu.au> writes:
> RAM chips from old UNIX servers make lovely keyrings. A bit fragile
> though. Anyone got a method to keep the ICs from eventually falling
> off with fatigue?

And this is the point where this thread joins with the
motorbikies' Loktite thread.

--Dave
--
"Can you do anything about that? *Hell* no. So what's the
solution? Violence! No hold on, that was Plan A."
-- Frossie

Peter Corlett

unread,
May 1, 2006, 10:07:14 AM5/1/06
to
TimC <tcon...@no.spam.accepted.here-astro.swin.edu.au> wrote:
[...]

> I really wish I could work out the pinouts to the motor of the incomplete
> 1GB, 13KG Seagate (IIRC) drive used in that cray. I just want to hear it
> spin up.

I've got a full-height 9GB drive in a Sun case (about the same size as an
IPX) that's fun to fire up and scare the young'uns with.

I'll hand it to them and then plug it in. After about five seconds, there
will be a load of whirring noise coming from the unit, somewhat louder than
a modern PC. They usually assume this noise is from the drive. Wrong! That's
just the cooling fan.

After about ten seconds, ~10kg of drive platters decide to spin up. This
whirling monster will then wind up to the unearthly speed of 3600RPM or so,
making a noise like a bag of spanners[0]. Cutting the power will then make
it lurch violently out of the hands of whoever is holding it.

Unsurprisingly, due to it being built like a battleship, the drive works
perfectly and doesn't even seem to require the usual goats and black candles
associated with more modern SCSI devices.


[0] I originally wrote "bag of spammers". I'd pay money to see *that*.

--
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age 18.
- Albert Einstein

Robert Sneddon

unread,
May 1, 2006, 10:29:29 AM5/1/06
to
In message <e354mi$7o9$1...@mooli.org.uk>, Peter Corlett
<ab...@dopiaza.cabal.org.uk> writes

>I've got a full-height 9GB drive

>After about ten seconds, ~10kg of drive platters decide to spin up. This


>whirling monster will then wind up to the unearthly speed of 3600RPM or so,
>making a noise like a bag of spanners[0]. Cutting the power will then make
>it lurch violently out of the hands of whoever is holding it.

Urban Legend has it that the Ferranti Argus computers had disc drives
that were available in two different rotations, for use in pairs on
board aircraft to prevent gyroscopic effects throwing the plane into the
ground as the system rebooted on takeoff or landing.
--
To reply, my gmail address is nojay1 Robert Sneddon

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

unread,
May 1, 2006, 11:08:49 AM5/1/06
to
In <e354mi$7o9$1...@mooli.org.uk>, on 05/01/2006

at 02:07 PM, ab...@dopiaza.cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) said:

>I've got a full-height 9GB drive in a Sun case (about the same size
>as an IPX) that's fun to fire up and scare the young'uns with.

Kids these days. Show then a real disk drive from the 1950's, or a
drum. Maximum mass, maximum angular momentum, minimum capacity and
minimum performance.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <http://patriot.net/~shmuel> ISO position
Reply to domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+bspfh to contact me.
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

Brian Kantor

unread,
May 1, 2006, 12:27:30 PM5/1/06
to
>Thank you. I'm sure some poor sod was caused great pain by that...

You, and he, are quite welcome.
- Brian

Brian Kantor

unread,
May 1, 2006, 12:32:51 PM5/1/06
to
>I really wish I could work out the pinouts to the motor of the
>incomplete 1GB, 13KG Seagate (IIRC) drive used in that cray. I just
>want to hear it spin up.

In the interest of furthering the amusement of cats, I'll offer to go
down the hall and bug the guys who used to service the Cray and see if
I can get that info for you, but I'll need the part numbers of what you
have.

OTOH, most of those big drives needed multiphase AC, so it might be too
much trouble to construct.
- Brian

Alan J. Flavell

unread,
May 1, 2006, 12:46:00 PM5/1/06
to
On Mon, 1 May 2006, Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz wrote:

> Kids these days. Show then a real disk drive from the 1950's, or a
> drum. Maximum mass, maximum angular momentum, minimum capacity and
> minimum performance.

IBM 2314's with real hydraulic head actuators.

Messy when things went wrong.

Brian Kantor

unread,
May 1, 2006, 1:04:09 PM5/1/06
to
>Kids these days. Show then a real disk drive from the 1950's, or a
>drum. Maximum mass, maximum angular momentum, minimum capacity and
>minimum performance.

Then show them the new, improved RK-05.
- Brian

Howard S Shubs

unread,
May 1, 2006, 1:18:47 PM5/1/06
to
In article <Pine.LNX.4.64.0...@ppepc87.ph.gla.ac.uk>,

"Alan J. Flavell" <fla...@physics.gla.ac.uk> wrote:

> Messy when things went wrong.

Internal combustion engine throws a valve.
Disk drive throws heads. Messy is the word, yes.

--
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams,
Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams.
from "Ode", Arthur O'Shaughnessy

Mike Andrews

unread,
May 1, 2006, 2:24:26 PM5/1/06
to
Alan J. Flavell <fla...@physics.gla.ac.uk> wrote:

And dead easy to force things to go wrong: just push the address plug
halfway in. The heads seek all the way back and the pump puts max
pressure on the system. Frequently it's enough to blow a seal over a
weekend.

Now, if this is UI to you, you're in the wrong business.

--
"Raede tha gehaemendan larboc!"
-- AEthelwulf of Mountain Freehold, in rec.org.sca

Mike Andrews

unread,
May 1, 2006, 2:26:06 PM5/1/06
to
Howard S Shubs <how...@shubs.net> wrote:
> In article <Pine.LNX.4.64.0...@ppepc87.ph.gla.ac.uk>,
> "Alan J. Flavell" <fla...@physics.gla.ac.uk> wrote:

>> Messy when things went wrong.

> Internal combustion engine throws a valve.
> Disk drive throws heads. Messy is the word, yes.

CE pulls crashed 3330-11 disk pack, runs a finger around inside of the
enclosure, examines it. PHB enters machine room, asks "What's that?"
CE mournfully responds, "Data".

--
Q: How many mathematicians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: One. He gives it to six Californians, thereby reducing the problem
to the earlier joke.

Howard S Shubs

unread,
May 1, 2006, 10:10:24 PM5/1/06
to
In article <e35jru$g4k$2...@puck.litech.org>,
"Mike Andrews" <mi...@mikea.ath.cx> wrote:

> CE pulls crashed 3330-11 disk pack, runs a finger around inside of the
> enclosure, examines it. PHB enters machine room, asks "What's that?"
> CE mournfully responds, "Data".

<sigh> I hope they had tbbq onpxhcf.

Phil Launchbury

unread,
May 2, 2006, 7:42:11 AM5/2/06
to
In article <e35jru$g4k$2...@puck.litech.org>, Mike Andrews wrote:
> Howard S Shubs <how...@shubs.net> wrote:
>> In article <Pine.LNX.4.64.0...@ppepc87.ph.gla.ac.uk>,
>> "Alan J. Flavell" <fla...@physics.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>>> Messy when things went wrong.
>
>> Internal combustion engine throws a valve.
>> Disk drive throws heads. Messy is the word, yes.
>
> CE pulls crashed 3330-11 disk pack, runs a finger around inside of the
> enclosure, examines it. PHB enters machine room, asks "What's that?"
> CE mournfully responds, "Data".

I seem to recall a disc platter hung up in the entrance hall to the
Leicester Polytechnic computer science tower. It had a wide (2 cm?)
track planed out the middle of the disc where the heads hit and took
off the surface before self-destructing..
It was a fairly impressively deep score.

Phil

--
Phil Launchbury, IT PHB
Triumph Tiger 955i
'I'm training the bats that live in my cube
to juggle mushrooms'

Joe Bednorz

unread,
May 2, 2006, 8:27:50 AM5/2/06
to
On Mon, 1 May 2006 18:26:06 +0000 (UTC), Mike Andrews wrote:

>Howard S Shubs <how...@shubs.net> wrote:
>> In article <Pine.LNX.4.64.0...@ppepc87.ph.gla.ac.uk>,
>> "Alan J. Flavell" <fla...@physics.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>>> Messy when things went wrong.
>
>> Internal combustion engine throws a valve.
>> Disk drive throws heads. Messy is the word, yes.
>
>CE pulls crashed 3330-11 disk pack, runs a finger around inside of the
>enclosure, examines it. PHB enters machine room, asks "What's that?"
>CE mournfully responds, "Data".


There's a legend about that. Operator drops disk pack. Operator then
tests disk pack in a drive. It fails. Operator restores original disk
pack to that drive. It fails again, taking that disk pack as well.

Operator then tests bad disk packs in every drive in the machine room.
Original disk packs are carefully replaced and spun up after each test.

By the time the Field Circus Engineer gets there failure lights are
flashing everywhere. Every disk pack has been destroyed.

Then the scene of opening drive, "What's that dust?", "Data" is played
out.

(Read that in DEC Professional or DECUS newsletters sometime prior to
1989.)

--
Alice in Wonderland Interactive Adventure: <http://www.ruthannzaroff.com/wonderland/>
Baen Free Online SciFi Library: <http://www.baen.com/library/>
All the best,
Joe Bednorz

TimC

unread,
May 2, 2006, 10:20:49 AM5/2/06
to
On 2006-05-01, Brian Kantor (aka Bruce)

was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
>>I really wish I could work out the pinouts to the motor of the
>>incomplete 1GB, 13KG Seagate (IIRC) drive used in that cray. I just
>>want to hear it spin up.
>
> In the interest of furthering the amusement of cats, I'll offer to go
> down the hall and bug the guys who used to service the Cray and see if
> I can get that info for you, but I'll need the part numbers of what you
> have.

Seagate Sabre Module Assembly, P/Ns 47178002, 47177801 are the only
identifying information I can find. 1153MB.

Don't have a ruler or scales, but this is all sounding familiar:
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/1999-July/129958.html

> OTOH, most of those big drives needed multiphase AC, so it might be too
> much trouble to construct.

It's not that big. Although it was interesting just bending down then
to pick up the metal case. Evidentally, I'm a bit stiff right now.
Must have been the cold wet ride home.

--
TimC
My cats are forbidden from walking on my computer keyboard on the desk
when I'm asdfjjhhkl;ljfd.;oier' puyykmm4hbdm9lo9j USING IT. --unknown

Message has been deleted

Bruce Tomlin

unread,
May 2, 2006, 4:04:34 PM5/2/06
to
In article <zbei9SAE...@demon.co.uk>,
Tanuki <mailer...@canismajor.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In <slrne5ehcj...@tabby.launchbury.org.uk>, Phil Launchbury
> <ph...@launchbury.org.uk> said


> >I seem to recall a disc platter hung up in the entrance hall to the
> >Leicester Polytechnic computer science tower. It had a wide (2 cm?)
> >track planed out the middle of the disc where the heads hit and took
> >off the surface before self-destructing..
> >It was a fairly impressively deep score.
>

> Something similar hangs in the reception area of the Atlas Building
> at RAL, along with various bits of UNIVAC 1108[1] and the console of
> an IBM3081

I have a platter from a lapdog drive where the platter was SAWED off of
its hub by the heads. Near the center too, so it must have been
something gradual due to the head parking process.

Mark V

unread,
May 2, 2006, 9:43:37 PM5/2/06
to
On Mon, 01 May 2006 14:07:14 +0000, Peter Corlett wrote:

> I've got a full-height 9GB drive in a Sun case (about the same size as an
> IPX) that's fun to fire up and scare the young'uns with.


Hey! That's my footrest! I've got a drive case like that
(complete with full-height drive) under my desk. It handles
my weight a little better than the IPX does, but one of these
days I'm going to have to use some duct tape on a stacked pair
of SparcStation 4's - I need a slightly wider footrest.

Message has been deleted

David P. Murphy

unread,
May 3, 2006, 11:50:19 AM5/3/06
to
"Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz" <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote:

> Kids these days. Show then a real disk drive from the 1950's, or a
> drum. Maximum mass, maximum angular momentum, minimum capacity and
> minimum performance.

Nor are they able to make sense of the phrase "disk races".

Ah, the RM-05 in the basement, how it wiggled!

ok
dpm
--
David P. Murphy
systems programmer
http://www.myths.com/~dpm/
mailto:dpm_u...@myths.com

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

unread,
May 3, 2006, 12:28:37 PM5/3/06
to
In <e3ajfr$2e1$3...@allhats.xcski.com>, on 05/03/2006

at 03:50 PM, dpm_u...@myths.com (David P. Murphy) said:

>Ah, the RM-05 in the basement, how it wiggled!

Even when you're not playing with a full DEC you could make a disk
drive wiggle. I once had a boss who wanted me to write a timing
program to seek to the middle, move 1 cylinder, move back 1 cylinder,
move forward two cylinders, ...

I told him that the results would cast no light on performance with a
normal load, but he insisted. For obvious reasons I called the program
DANCE. The Memorex 3330-equivalent drives were not happy campers.

Then there was the apocryphal story about the shipboard UNIVAC drum[1]
that tore lose when the ship turned.

[1] I don't recall whether it was FASTRAND or Flying Head.

Kenneth Brody

unread,
May 4, 2006, 2:39:05 PM5/4/06
to
"David P. Murphy" wrote:
>
> "Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz" <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote:
>
> > Kids these days. Show then a real disk drive from the 1950's, or a
> > drum. Maximum mass, maximum angular momentum, minimum capacity and
> > minimum performance.

And tell them the story of Mel.

> Nor are they able to make sense of the phrase "disk races".
>
> Ah, the RM-05 in the basement, how it wiggled!

The college I went to had several washing-machine drives. (I don't know
the model, but they were attached to the KL-10.) I never got to witness
a disk race, however.

--
+-------------------------+--------------------+-----------------------------+
| Kenneth J. Brody | www.hvcomputer.com | |
| kenbrody/at\spamcop.net | www.fptech.com | #include <std_disclaimer.h> |
+-------------------------+--------------------+-----------------------------+
Don't e-mail me at: <mailto:ThisIsA...@gmail.com>


Message has been deleted

Howard S Shubs

unread,
May 4, 2006, 4:41:34 PM5/4/06
to
In article <445A4A49...@spamcop.net>,
Kenneth Brody <kenb...@spamcop.net> wrote:

> The college I went to had several washing-machine drives. (I don't know
> the model, but they were attached to the KL-10.) I never got to witness
> a disk race, however.

The last time I saw such drives, in 1995, they were packed in tight.
There was no room for them to move. And in fact, one crashed while I
was there. And they were hooked to a KL-10, too. The horror!

Don Quixote

unread,
May 5, 2006, 12:07:16 AM5/5/06
to
mrob...@worldnet.att.net might have said:

[g=c800:5 & VQR]

>Interesting. My neurons just seem to drop bits, while Dave's drops some
>bits and scrambles others around.
>...

Not unlike Steve VanDevender's subsequent post explaining the recall
of such, I suspect I remember the command because it was the
equivalent of nuking from a _low_ orbit.

Initial incarnations of VQR as Pbzcnd were interesting. Many have
remained so. So much so that clay tablets often look attractive:
It fsck's the volume or it gets the format again.


--
'Buy a clue Ed. Everyone knows that because of easier access to farm animals,
Canadian porn is the best there is, and it's only made available on Canadian
news servers.'
Disg...@no.mail in alt.binaries.news-server-comparison

Mike Andrews

unread,
May 5, 2006, 9:37:03 AM5/5/06
to
Roger Burton West <ro...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:
> In article <445A4A49...@spamcop.net>,
> Kenneth Brody <kenb...@spamcop.net> wrote:

>>And tell them the story of Mel.

EXPN?

> And of the bombing computer on the A-6 Intruder. (Anyone in a position
> to verify that one?)

ISTR that that story had to do with the drum (or dis[ck]) being a good
gyroscope, but with bearings and mountings that weren't up to the job.
I haven't found it through Google yet. hints/pointers?

--
Sure we Brits know what summer is. It's those two days in August
between the thunderstorms and the sleet.

-- Peter C, in the monastery

Stuart Lamble

unread,
May 5, 2006, 9:44:28 AM5/5/06
to
On 2006-05-05, Mike Andrews <mi...@mikea.ath.cx> wrote:
> Roger Burton West <ro...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:
>> In article <445A4A49...@spamcop.net>,
>> Kenneth Brody <kenb...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>>>And tell them the story of Mel.
>
> EXPN?

All I'll say is that he was a programmer. The Answer is Out There.

--
My Usenet From: address now expires after two weeks. If you email me, and
the mail bounces, try changing the bit before the "@" to "usenet".

Mike Andrews

unread,
May 5, 2006, 9:55:54 AM5/5/06
to
Stuart Lamble <7d6-...@carousel.its.monash.edu.au> wrote:
> On 2006-05-05, Mike Andrews <mi...@mikea.ath.cx> wrote:
>> Roger Burton West <ro...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:
>>> In article <445A4A49...@spamcop.net>,
>>> Kenneth Brody <kenb...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>And tell them the story of Mel.
>>
>> EXPN?

> All I'll say is that he was a programmer. The Answer is Out There.

Sir, you understate your case.

Mel was a _Programmer_, and much closer to The Fount Of Clue than I.

--
Every program has at least one bug and can be shortened by at least one line.
By induction, every program can be reduced to one line which does not work.
-- Author unknown; quoted by Karl A. Krueger

Maarten Wiltink

unread,
May 5, 2006, 10:34:19 AM5/5/06
to
"Mike Andrews" <mi...@mikea.ath.cx> wrote in message
news:e3flha$kfd$3...@puck.litech.org...
[...]
> Mel was a _Programmer_, ...

But a dinosaur programmer, and he's no longer around programming.
Being a mammal programmer myself, I'm slightly worried about the
current trend towards insects.

Tebrgwrf,
Maarten Wiltink


Howard S Shubs

unread,
May 5, 2006, 12:52:14 PM5/5/06
to
In article <445b6273$0$31649$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl>,
"Maarten Wiltink" <maa...@kittensandcats.net> wrote:

> But a dinosaur programmer, and he's no longer around programming.

Which explains how advanced he was.

Message has been deleted

Mike Andrews

unread,
May 5, 2006, 2:18:26 PM5/5/06
to
Tanuki <mailer...@canismajor.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> The evil in me would like to take you to a site I know of where serried
> ranks of IBM 3380-model-K based storage still runs.
> If it fails, some people are going to be seriously inconvenienced, if
> only because aircraft can't be asked to stay airborne indefinitely.

*shudder*

There may be some small number of you who have yet to be exposed to IBM
3380-series storage. I'll fix _that_. Lege:

This is IBM's initial entry into the Big Dis[c] market. The very first
3380-series storage, called simply "3380", no suffix, came in a Big Box
with only an EPO switch, and requiring a special key to get inside the
covers. This was OK, according to IBM, because they recovered from power
failures, sequenced themselves up automagically, and so on. Great theory.
We got our cover keys and some instruction from the CE on how to power
up or down about 3 days later, after OG&E dropped the load several times
during a storm, and IBM got tired of coming out to turn the Gods-damned
things back on.

In a 3380-series box, whether unsuffixed, -3, -6, -9, or -K, one finds two
_BIG_ dis[ck]s, about 18 inches across, each in its own enclosure, one
accessible from the front, and the other accessible from the back. Each
enclosure has two Muckin' Big Voice Coils, each coil with an access arm
sticking through it and onto a head comb in thge enclosure. Thus we have
two head combs per disk, or four per box.

Each head comb/access arm is associated with a dis[ck] address, and each
operates independently of the others in the box. Because the dis[ck]s in
the box have their axes of rotation normal to the front and back covers,
with the access arms moving horizontally to the left and right, the boxes
tend not to move all that much -- especially since the total assembly mass
is very much larger than the mass of even all four access arms+head combs.
Thus the 3380* hardware tends not to waltz around the machine room, and
even less so when all the frames in a string of boxen are bolted together
and raised on their cutesy little feet so that the casters are off the
floor.

They're small by today's standards, and fairly slow as well, but for a long
time they were giants and fearsomely fast. When IBM introduced RAM caching
in the controller, they suddenly appeared to be _M_U_C_H_ faster to the
users and to us dinosaur herders as well. Even so, a Shark makes them look
like a dried-out water pistol, and the new 1U terabyte arrays with FICON
make a Shark ob-so-lete.

--
Want an abuse desk to be part of the solution? Dip it in acid.

Mike Andrews

unread,
May 5, 2006, 2:22:03 PM5/5/06
to
Tanuki <mailer...@canismajor.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> The evil in me would like to take you to a site I know of where serried
> ranks of IBM 3380-model-K based storage still runs.
> If it fails, some people are going to be seriously inconvenienced, if
> only because aircraft can't be asked to stay airborne indefinitely.

*shudder*

There may be some small number of you who have yet to be exposed to IBM
3380-series storage. I'll fix _that_. Lege:

This is IBM's initial entry into the Big Dis[ck] market. The very first


3380-series storage, called simply "3380", no suffix, came in a Big Box
with only an EPO switch, and requiring a special key to get inside the
covers. This was OK, according to IBM, because they recovered from power
failures, sequenced themselves up automagically, and so on. Great theory.
We got our cover keys and some instruction from the CE on how to power
up or down about 3 days later, after OG&E dropped the load several times
during a storm, and IBM got tired of coming out to turn the Gods-damned
things back on.

In a 3380-series box, whether unsuffixed, -3, -6, -9, or -K, one finds two
_BIG_ dis[ck]s, about 18 inches across, each in its own enclosure, one
accessible from the front, and the other accessible from the back. Each
enclosure has two Muckin' Big Voice Coils, each coil with an access arm
sticking through it and onto a head comb in thge enclosure. Thus we have

two head combs per dis[ck], or four per box.

Robert Sneddon

unread,
May 5, 2006, 2:46:11 PM5/5/06
to
In message <Za14NAAk...@demon.co.uk>, Tanuki
<mailer...@canismajor.demon.co.uk> writes

>only because aircraft can't be asked to stay airborne indefinitely.

Well, you can ask them.

"I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Why so can I, or so can any man; but will they come when you do call
for them?" - Shakespeare, King Henry IV, Part I

It's a familiar feature of heavier-than-air aircraft that staying
airborne is something they have to work hard at.
--
To reply, my gmail address is nojay1 Robert Sneddon

Message has been deleted

Garrett Wollman

unread,
May 5, 2006, 3:16:39 PM5/5/06
to
In article <e3g54b$kfd$6...@puck.litech.org>,

Mike Andrews <mi...@mikea.ath.cx> wrote:
>There may be some small number of you who have yet to be exposed to IBM
>3380-series storage. I'll fix _that_. Lege:

Sorry, gran'ther, but the physically largest disk I've ever seen,
up-close-and-personal-like, was an RA81. I do remember eight-inch
floppies, though.

>In a 3380-series box, whether unsuffixed, -3, -6, -9, or -K, one finds two
>_BIG_ dis[ck]s,

Throughout your article, I had to work hard to keep from reading that
as "dicks".

>about 18 inches across,

Mmmm... flywheels....

>Because the dis[ck]s in the box have their axes of rotation normal to
>the front and back covers,

Presumably they did this to keep the net angular momentum low.
(Assuming they both spin in the same direction relative to their
respective mounts.)

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | As the Constitution endures, persons in every
wol...@csail.mit.edu | generation can invoke its principles in their own
Opinions not those | search for greater freedom.
of MIT or CSAIL. | - A. Kennedy, Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558 (2003)

Message has been deleted

Alan J Rosenthal

unread,
May 5, 2006, 3:33:24 PM5/5/06
to
"Mike Andrews" <mi...@mikea.ath.cx> writes:
>>>And tell them the story of Mel.
>
>EXPN?

You know, the famed cowboy programmer who wasn't covering up incompetence.
Very unusual property for a cowboy type programmer.

Zebee Johnstone

unread,
May 5, 2006, 4:33:03 PM5/5/06
to
In alt.sysadmin.recovery on Fri, 5 May 2006 20:09:57 +0100
Tanuki <mailer...@canismajor.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In <wSvB2fGz...@nospam.demon.co.uk>, Robert Sneddon
><fr...@nospam.demon.co.uk> said

>> It's a familiar feature of heavier-than-air aircraft that staying
>>airborne is something they have to work hard at.
>
> Helicopters seem particularly troubled by this concept.
> They don't so much as float on the air as temporarily
> beat it into helpless submission.

Hence the nickname "mixmaster bilong Jesus"

Zebee

Robert Sneddon

unread,
May 5, 2006, 5:09:07 PM5/5/06
to
In message <jIdWJCAF...@demon.co.uk>, Tanuki
<mailer...@canismajor.demon.co.uk> writes

>Helicopters seem particularly troubled by this concept.
>They don't so much as float on the air as temporarily
>beat it into helpless submission.

The explanation I heard from a chopper pilot was that helos were so
ugly they repulsed the Earth below.

Brian Kantor

unread,
May 5, 2006, 7:35:35 PM5/5/06
to
>Helicopters seem particularly troubled by this concept.
>They don't so much as float on the air as temporarily
>beat it into helpless submission.

"A controlled state of fall." - says a chopper pilot I flew with
a few times.

- Brian

Random Data

unread,
May 5, 2006, 8:17:12 PM5/5/06
to
On Fri, 05 May 2006 20:33:03 +0000, Zebee Johnstone wrote:

> Hence the nickname "mixmaster bilong Jesus"

Is that before or after it stops flying?
--
Dave Hughes | da...@hired-goons.net
There were the two rules that had clearly been added through
Bad Experiences: 1. Do not try to flush wet cement down the toilets.
2. Under no circumstance keep a chain saw in your apartment.

Message has been deleted

Richard Bos

unread,
May 6, 2006, 5:38:55 PM5/6/06
to
Tanuki <mailer...@canismajor.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > It's a familiar feature of heavier-than-air aircraft that staying
> >airborne is something they have to work hard at.
>

> Helicopters seem particularly troubled by this concept.
> They don't so much as float on the air as temporarily
> beat it into helpless submission.

Airplanes swim in the air; helicopters tread water.

Richard

Zebee Johnstone

unread,
May 7, 2006, 4:51:45 AM5/7/06
to
In alt.sysadmin.recovery on Sat, 06 May 2006 10:17:12 +1000

Random Data <spam...@hired-goons.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 05 May 2006 20:33:03 +0000, Zebee Johnstone wrote:
>
>> Hence the nickname "mixmaster bilong Jesus"
>
> Is that before or after it stops flying?

Based on potential I presume.

Zebee

Christer Mort Boräng

unread,
May 7, 2006, 6:28:07 AM5/7/06
to
"Mike Andrews" <mi...@mikea.ath.cx> writes:
> There may be some small number of you who have yet to be exposed to IBM
> 3380-series storage. I'll fix _that_. Lege:

> This is IBM's initial entry into the Big Dis[ck] market. The very first
> 3380-series storage, called simply "3380", no suffix, came in a Big Box
> with only an EPO switch, and requiring a special key to get inside the
> covers. This was OK, according to IBM, because they recovered from power
> failures, sequenced themselves up automagically, and so on. Great theory.
> We got our cover keys and some instruction from the CE on how to power
> up or down about 3 days later, after OG&E dropped the load several times
> during a storm, and IBM got tired of coming out to turn the Gods-damned
> things back on.

> In a 3380-series box, whether unsuffixed, -3, -6, -9, or -K, one finds two
> _BIG_ dis[ck]s, about 18 inches across, each in its own enclosure, one
> accessible from the front, and the other accessible from the back. Each
> enclosure has two Muckin' Big Voice Coils, each coil with an access arm
> sticking through it and onto a head comb in thge enclosure. Thus we have
> two head combs per dis[ck], or four per box.

Is each box about the size of a washing machine? *googles* Ah, no
that's the 3370 and earlier. Chalmers Computing Society had a row of
them, back in the early nineties. I think there was a gaggle of six
3370 series 2. That was a LOT of disk space back then, for us.

//Christer
--
| Hagåkersgatan 18C | Phone: Home +46 (0)31 43 52 03 CTH: +46 (0)31 772 5431 |
| S-431 41 Mölndal | Mail: mo...@medic.chalmers.se Cell: +46 (0)707 53 57 57 |
| Sweden | WWW: http://www.cd.chalmers.se/~mort/ |
"An NT server can be run by an idiot, and usually is." -- Tom Holub, a.h.b-o-i

David Cameron Staples

unread,
May 7, 2006, 7:59:29 PM5/7/06
to
in Fri, 05 May 2006 13:55:54 +0000, Mike Andrews in hoc locum scripsit:

> Stuart Lamble <7d6-...@carousel.its.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>> On 2006-05-05, Mike Andrews <mi...@mikea.ath.cx> wrote:
>>> Roger Burton West <ro...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:
>>>> In article <445A4A49...@spamcop.net>, Kenneth Brody
>>>> <kenb...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>And tell them the story of Mel.
>>>
>>> EXPN?
>
>> All I'll say is that he was a programmer. The Answer is Out There.
>
> Sir, you understate your case.
>
> Mel was a _Programmer_, and much closer to The Fount Of Clue than I.

I know this guy who hadn't heard the Saga of Mel. I started to give him
the gist, when he interrupted me with his own story of a Real Programmer.
I realised in short order that he was telling me the same story, from a
different viewpoint.

It turns out that this guy[0] I know was Mel's PFY. That gives me a Mel
number of 2, I guess.

Amongst Mel's tricks was the use of an AM radio to debug loops.


[0] This guy went on do do other meaningful things. He has a small
printout on display in his home, which is one of the original printouts of
a Viking photo of Mars. His hobbies include making such objects as an
astrolabe from scratch. He would belong here, but he has a life.

--
David Cameron Staples | staples AT cs DOT mu DOT oz DOT au
Melbourne University | Computer Science | Technical Services
I don't play with WD40 anymore. I actually managed to light a fish on
fire. while it was underwater -- bash.org/?88551

David P. Murphy

unread,
May 8, 2006, 7:05:19 PM5/8/06
to
Roger Burton West <ro...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:
> In article <e3fkdv$kfd$2...@puck.litech.org>,

> Mike Andrews <mi...@mikea.ath.cx> wrote:
>>Roger Burton West <ro...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:

>>> And of the bombing computer on the A-6 Intruder. (Anyone in a position
>>> to verify that one?)

>>ISTR that that story had to do with the drum (or dis[ck]) being a good
>>gyroscope, but with bearings and mountings that weren't up to the job.

> With the result that if you wanted to drop your bombs accurately you had
> to fly in a straight line for about ten seconds up to the release point.
> Rather than, say, dodging about to avoid the random unfriendly stuff
> being flung up at you by random unfriendly people.
>
> Strangely enough, this was quite unpopular with the crews.

Can anyone provide any other details, before I check with my brother,
the former A-6 pilot?

ok
dpm
--
David P. Murphy
systems programmer
http://www.myths.com/~dpm/
mailto:dpm_u...@myths.com

Rik Steenwinkel

unread,
May 10, 2006, 1:32:43 PM5/10/06
to
On Tue, 2 May 2006 12:27:50 UTC, Joe Bednorz <inv...@invalid.invalid>
persuaded newsservers all over the world to carry the following:

} There's a legend about that. Operator drops disk pack. Operator then
} tests disk pack in a drive. It fails. Operator restores original disk
} pack to that drive. It fails again, taking that disk pack as well.
}
} Operator then tests bad disk packs in every drive in the machine room.
} Original disk packs are carefully replaced and spun up after each test.
}
} By the time the Field Circus Engineer gets there failure lights are
} flashing everywhere. Every disk pack has been destroyed.

Not a legend; I have the name of the company involved.

It was pretty hard getting any service in that area the following days,
and parts stocks were rather lacking in disk drive heads for a good
while.

--
// Rik Steenwinkel # VMS mercenary # Enschede, Netherlands
// 1024D/CDBAE5C1

Rik Steenwinkel

unread,
May 10, 2006, 1:32:41 PM5/10/06
to
On Mon, 1 May 2006 14:29:29 UTC, Robert Sneddon
<fr...@nospam.demon.co.uk> persuaded newsservers all over the world to
carry the following:

} Urban Legend has it that the Ferranti Argus computers had disc drives
} that were available in two different rotations, for use in pairs on
} board aircraft to prevent gyroscopic effects throwing the plane into the
} ground as the system rebooted on takeoff or landing.

Well, I doubt that the drives stop dead the moment the system reboots,
and that consequently the effects of the drives' slowing down or
spinning up on the plane's flight path are inconsequential.

I have heard of an airplane where one drum drive's bearings failed,
causing it to transfer its rotational energy to the plane's interior.

Rik Steenwinkel

unread,
May 10, 2006, 1:32:45 PM5/10/06
to
On Fri, 5 May 2006 19:16:39 UTC, wol...@csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman)

persuaded newsservers all over the world to carry the following:

} In article <e3g54b$kfd$6...@puck.litech.org>,


} Mike Andrews <mi...@mikea.ath.cx> wrote:
} >There may be some small number of you who have yet to be exposed to IBM
} >3380-series storage. I'll fix _that_. Lege:
}
} Sorry, gran'ther, but the physically largest disk I've ever seen,
} up-close-and-personal-like, was an RA81. I do remember eight-inch
} floppies, though.

The R[AM]80 was just as large, physically, but with just 121MB capacity
instead of the 480MB the RA81 offered.

However, these fit three in a meter-high rack. The RP06 and RP07 had a
slightly larger footprint, and with just one 300-odd MB drive data
density is clearly lower.

Then there are the RK drives, with up to 5MB.

Howard S Shubs

unread,
May 10, 2006, 5:17:54 PM5/10/06
to
In article <Ysd2q9KROUC1-p...@news.xs4all.nl>,
"Rik Steenwinkel" <rst...@xs4all.nl> wrote:

> Then there are the RK drives, with up to 5MB.

Woohoo!

I remember using IBM 2315 in an IBM 1130. 1MB! And we never ran out of
space.

--
Life is toxic. It leads to death and
too much of it at once can kill you.

M. Clarkson (a.k.a. desertwolf)

unread,
May 10, 2006, 5:37:32 PM5/10/06
to
> I remember using IBM 2315 in an IBM 1130. 1MB! And we never ran out
> of space.
>


Well I remember etching the 1's and 0's by hand into large stones with
bone tools...

Sorry, evil twin grabbed the keyboard...

My first computer was an IBM portable 8088 with one low density 5.25"
floppy drive and GW-Basic. Had a six inch amber screen and fold down
keyboard. My dad paid $500 for it used at a garage sale in 1985. And I
wonder where my bad eyes and carpel tunnel come from...

Being born the year they created the 8086 (1978 if you've slept since
then) I didn't get to play with many systems older than the 8088 (as no
one really put the 8086 architecture to use until its decendant the
286).

I bow to the computing ancients who used computers with less hard drive
space than my watch (128MB if you really cared to know) and got to the
moon and back.

--
-"Orwell was an optimist."

Zebee Johnstone

unread,
May 10, 2006, 5:49:20 PM5/10/06
to
In alt.sysadmin.recovery on Wed, 10 May 2006 21:37:32 GMT

M. Clarkson (a.k.a. desertwolf) <mclar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I bow to the computing ancients who used computers with less hard drive
> space than my watch (128MB if you really cared to know) and got to the
> moon and back.

Whenever I see threads about first computer, and elderly machines and
their lack of space, I think about the time my mother won one of those
dicksize wars, with one word.

CSIRAC

Zebee
- whose first computer was an account on the DEC10, but that was just
for playing games so doesn't really count.

Peter Corlett

unread,
May 10, 2006, 6:42:14 PM5/10/06
to
Zebee Johnstone <zeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]

> Whenever I see threads about first computer, and elderly machines and
> their lack of space, I think about the time my mother won one of those
> dicksize wars, with one word. CSIRAC

Pfft, why are you mentioning this modern junk?

Circumstantial evidence (since the Official Secrets Act prevented her from
confirming it) makes it a fairly good bet that my granny worked on the
cracking of Enigma.

--
PGP key ID E85DC776 - finger ab...@mooli.org.uk for full key

Message has been deleted

Mike Andrews

unread,
May 11, 2006, 12:14:24 AM5/11/06
to
Rik Steenwinkel <rst...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> On Tue, 2 May 2006 12:27:50 UTC, Joe Bednorz <inv...@invalid.invalid>
> persuaded newsservers all over the world to carry the following:

> } There's a legend about that. Operator drops disk pack. Operator then
> } tests disk pack in a drive. It fails. Operator restores original disk
> } pack to that drive. It fails again, taking that disk pack as well.
> }
> } Operator then tests bad disk packs in every drive in the machine room.
> } Original disk packs are carefully replaced and spun up after each test.
> }
> } By the time the Field Circus Engineer gets there failure lights are
> } flashing everywhere. Every disk pack has been destroyed.

> Not a legend; I have the name of the company involved.

Multiple-occurence event. It happened at the Oklahoma Department of
inHuman Services back around 1980, at the Oklahoma Tax Commission
around 1982, at the Oklahoma State Health Department in ... 1985 or
so, and at least two other state agencies here had operators do it.
Not WeBuildHighways, though.

> It was pretty hard getting any service in that area the following days,
> and parts stocks were rather lacking in disk drive heads for a good
> while.

Yeppers. And Health did it using a third-party maintenance vendor
after IBM discontinued removable-pack drives. That was ... fun. _Not_.

--
"I *am* $PHB" -- Skud.

Mike Andrews

unread,
May 11, 2006, 12:18:05 AM5/11/06
to
Gene Cash <gc...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:

> "M. Clarkson (a.k.a. desertwolf)" <mclar...@gmail.com> writes:

>> I bow to the computing ancients who used computers with less hard
>> drive space than my watch (128MB if you really cared to know) and got
>> to the moon and back.

> I keep a small model of an SR-71 on my desk. When some Big Orange
> Database tries to make me its bitch, I look up and remember people
> designed that before I was born, without the aid of any computers bigger
> than a slipstick, and made it go Really Fast And It Ain't Been Beat Yet.

Erm ...

Ain't nobody who _knows_ talkin' about it, anyway. But there are some
really odd puffy contrails over Nellis AFB and Area 51 sometimes. Like
something's farting its way through the air at high speed.

--
Segovia on the cost of his guitar:
A guitar has value but no price.

TimC

unread,
May 11, 2006, 5:02:05 AM5/11/06
to
On 2006-05-10, Peter Corlett (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

> Zebee Johnstone <zeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
>> Whenever I see threads about first computer, and elderly machines and
>> their lack of space, I think about the time my mother won one of those
>> dicksize wars, with one word. CSIRAC
>
> Pfft, why are you mentioning this modern junk?
>
> Circumstantial evidence (since the Official Secrets Act prevented her from
> confirming it) makes it a fairly good bet that my granny worked on the
> cracking of Enigma.

But did she know what she was doing at the time?

--
TimC
> cat ~/.signature
Passing cosmic ray (core dumped)

Brian Kantor

unread,
May 11, 2006, 8:15:44 AM5/11/06
to
>Multiple-occurence event. It happened at the Oklahoma Department of
>inHuman Services back around 1980, at the Oklahoma Tax Commission
>around 1982, at the Oklahoma State Health Department in ... 1985 or
>so, and at least two other state agencies here had operators do it.

Yah, I have come to believe that my employer just moves people around
instead of firing them.
There's no other way to explain some of the problems we have to solve.
- Brian

M. Clarkson (a.k.a. desertwolf)

unread,
May 11, 2006, 11:42:09 AM5/11/06
to

> Erm ...
>
> Ain't nobody who _knows_ talkin' about it, anyway. But there are some
> really odd puffy contrails over Nellis AFB and Area 51 sometimes. Like
> something's farting its way through the air at high speed.
>

High speed aerial farting...could it be a co-operative mission with Mexico
to design refried bean fueled aircraft or alien vessels fueled by cabbage?
You decide. Tape at 11.

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