pe...@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote on 22.02.00 in <88su65$...@web.nmti.com>:
> In article <88sjdt$5l...@allhats.xcski.com>, > Paul Tomblin <ptomb...@xcski.com> wrote: > > In a previous article, pe...@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) said: > > >Right now I'm dealing with the ways in which C++ fhpxf chf sebz gur nany > > >fberf bs n yrcebhf pnzry.
> > What part of that sentence did you consider UI that needed rot-13ing?
> What makes you think I'm part of that hokey religion?
The fact that here, *nobody* uses rot-13 for bad language?
Kai Henningsen <kaih=7ZMP6Wjm...@khms.westfalen.de> wrote: > pe...@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote on 22.02.00 in <88su65$...@web.nmti.com>: > > In article <88sjdt$5l...@allhats.xcski.com>, > > Paul Tomblin <ptomb...@xcski.com> wrote: > > > In a previous article, pe...@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) said: > > > >Right now I'm dealing with the ways in which C++ fhpxf chf sebz gur nany > > > >fberf bs n yrcebhf pnzry. > > > What part of that sentence did you consider UI that needed rot-13ing? > > What makes you think I'm part of that hokey religion? > The fact that here, *nobody* uses rot-13 for bad language?
I do. Proof by example that your statement is inoperative.
-- In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva <pe...@baileynm.com> `-_-' Ar rug tú barróg ar do mhactíre inniu? 'U` "I *am* $PHB" -- Skud.
In article <bybelazvaqfcevatpbz.fqcqah3.pmin...@nntp.mindspring.com>,
Ben Coleman <olo...@mindspring.com> wrote: > On 22 Feb 2000 20:36:06 GMT, Peter da Silva wrote: > >Bloody kids. If it hasn't got a front panel and you don't have to toggle in > >the bootstrap by hand you haven't experienced a real installation. > I suppose my brother's SWTPC 6800 was a luxury, then, because instead > of a front panel it came with MIKBUG in ROM?
ROM monitors were the first steps down the road to Install Wizards. The road to hell is paved with convenient shortcuts.
-- In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva <pe...@baileynm.com> `-_-' Ar rug tú barróg ar do mhactíre inniu? 'U` "I *am* $PHB" -- Skud.
In article <88v2gh$...@web.nmti.com>, Nick Manka <n...@abbnm.com> wrote: > In article <88urvm$...@web.nmti.com>, > pe...@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > > Bloody kids. If it hasn't got a front panel and you don't have to toggle in > > the bootstrap by hand you haven't experienced a real installation. > Bah, you haven't booted up your PDP 11 in years. Go sit in the > corner and mourn the instruction set.
This PDP-11? This bloody PDP-11 has more ROM on the disk controller than any computer has a right to. It's not a real computer, it's just the next best thing.
Besides, I booted it up 1-1-2000.
-- In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva <pe...@baileynm.com> `-_-' Ar rug tú barróg ar do mhactíre inniu? 'U` "I *am* $PHB" -- Skud.
In article <87d7pod7tx....@nigelw.wizardis.com.au>, Nigel Williams <nig...@wizardis.com.au> wrote:
> pe...@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > > Bloody kids. If it hasn't got a front panel and you don't have to > > toggle in the bootstrap by hand you haven't experienced a real > > installation. > How about "Didn't have a front panel, had to burn our own ROMs"?
s/burn/weave/ if you really want peopel to respect your chops, man.
-- In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva <pe...@baileynm.com> `-_-' Ar rug tú barróg ar do mhactíre inniu? 'U` "I *am* $PHB" -- Skud.
[ alt.sysadmin.recovery - 21 Feb 2000 23:57:49 GMT ] * Paul Tomblin wrote *
>In a previous article, pe...@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) said: >>Right now I'm dealing with the ways in which C++ fhpxf chf sebz gur nany >>fberf bs n yrcebhf pnzry.
>What part of that sentence did you consider UI that needed rot-13ing?
Perhaps there are some parts of sysadminning that require one to fhpx chf debz gur nany fberf bs n yrcebhf pnzry?
I'm just glad I've not come across these areas of sysadminning.
Kibo informs me that pe...@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) stated that:
>In article <88udvb$8u...@peabody.colorado.edu>, >Matthew Crosby <cro...@nagina.cs.colorado.edu> wrote: >> And now one doesn't need to go through setting up X at the config level, >> or downloading all 40 disks of SLS, or even building your own kernels.
>Bloody kids. If it hasn't got a front panel and you don't have to toggle in >the bootstrap by hand you haven't experienced a real installation.
Damn right.
*Some* of us did many of our first installations with a soldering iron, *then* got the luxury of using toggle switches & a 'load memory' button.
-- W . | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because \|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est ---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
Kibo informs me that "Ben Coleman" <olo...@mindspring.com> stated that:
>On 22 Feb 2000 20:36:06 GMT, Peter da Silva wrote:
>>Bloody kids. If it hasn't got a front panel and you don't have to toggle in >>the bootstrap by hand you haven't experienced a real installation.
>I suppose my brother's SWTPC 6800 was a luxury, then, because instead >of a front panel it came with MIKBUG in ROM?
Yep.
(Ah, it's been a long time since I've heard any mention of the old Sweatpacks...)
-- W . | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because \|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est ---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
>> Bloody kids. If it hasn't got a front panel and you don't have to >> toggle in the bootstrap by hand you haven't experienced a real >> installation.
>How about "Didn't have a front panel, had to burn our own ROMs"?
Trust me on this one - having an EPROM to burn your boot code into semi-permanantly *is* a luxury, after being used to toggling it into RAM for the umpteenth time after your app code has scribbled on it yet again.
-- W . | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because \|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est ---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
>> Nigel Williams <nig...@wizardis.com.au> wrote: >> > pe...@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >> > > Bloody kids. If it hasn't got a front panel and you don't have to >> > > toggle in the bootstrap by hand you haven't experienced a real >> > > installation.
>> > How about "Didn't have a front panel, had to burn our own ROMs"?
>> s/burn/weave/ if you really want peopel to respect your chops, man.
>?
>The only think I can think of is using web for your bootloader ROM >source.
Ever heard of wire-wrapping? Either lots of little 1N914 diodes in a matrix, or, if you're really desperate, lots of little ferrite cores on a crosswire-matrix... -- !Raised Tails! -:Tanuki:- http://www.canismajor.demon.co.uk/index.htm "We're not the admins you're looking for"
>> >On a side note - I never figured ear infections could _hurt_ that much. I >> >have a fever of 38.5 a few days back and now I'm living on 2000mg of >> >penicillin a day and ear drops. Ugh. Ear drops suck.
>> I have had fairly frequent inflammations of the outer ear (due to >> having a narrow ear channel, doing _lot's_ of water sports,
>Serves you *just* right, you PREVERT!
>Felix, always interested in new applications for bodily orifices
I see your champagne and I raise you any three entries from the ssb FAQ.
Now...
If prevert is to pre-version as pervert is to perversion, does that imply that users of pre-versions (alpha and beta testers, and any users of MicoShaft products) are all masochists? Makes sense that way.
Stephan
-------------------------- It can be done! --------------------------------- Please email me as sch...@informatik.tu-muenchen.de (Stephan Schulz) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- -
>>>>> "Ingvar" == Ingvar Mattsson <ing...@bofh.se> writes: > I think that Cousin Padrone had something to say about this.
"No, no. C is a small sharp knife. You can cut down trees with it, and get it cut down exactly the way you want it, with each shaving shaped exactly as you wish.
C++ is a small sharp knife with a bolted-on chainsaw and bearing-mounted laser cannon rotating at one revolution per second wildly firing every which way. You can cut down trees with it, and get it cut down exactly the way you want it, with each shaving shaped exactly as you wish.
You can also fire up the chainsaw and cut down the entire forest at one go, with all the trees cut down exactly the way you want them and every shaving shaped exactly as you wish -- provided that you make sure to point the wildly rotating and firing lasercannon in the right direction all the time."
-- Padrone, LysKom, article 717443, 11 Sep 1994, translated by me. -- Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | ca...@lysator.liu.se Hello? Brain? What do we want for breakfast?
In article <87aeksd2c6....@nigelw.wizardis.com.au>, Nigel Williams <nig...@wizardis.com.au> wrote:
> pe...@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > > Nigel Williams <nig...@wizardis.com.au> wrote: > > > pe...@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > > > > Bloody kids. If it hasn't got a front panel and you don't have to > > > > toggle in the bootstrap by hand you haven't experienced a real > > > > installation. > > > How about "Didn't have a front panel, had to burn our own ROMs"? > > s/burn/weave/ if you really want people to respect your chops, man. > ?
Hardwired read-only memory planes. Like core with hard wire links instead of cores. You could also s/burn/cut/ for diode ROMs. PROMS (EEROMS, UVEPROMS, etc) are for wimps.
-- In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva <pe...@baileynm.com> `-_-' Ar rug tú barróg ar do mhactíre inniu? 'U` "I *am* $PHB" -- Skud.
: *Some* of us did many of our first installations with a soldering iron, : *then* got the luxury of using toggle switches & a 'load memory' button.
On target. I knew I'd graduated to the bigtime in 1964 when I found that the CDC 3200 had keys so that I could type in the boot instructions, instead of having to toggle-and-load them a la the old Rice Machine.
Then came the CDC 3600 and 3800, which had hardwired boot code, and I was in Heaven.
Kids nowadays don't nkow how good they have it.
-- The Internet is totally out of control, impossible to map accurately, and being used far beyond its original intentions. So far, so good. -- Dr. Dobb's Journal May 1993
In article <2000Feb22.162141.19...@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu>, fl...@dgp.toronto.edu (Alan J Rosenthal) wrote:
> petro <pe...@insane.deathpunks.net> writes: > > Anybody know where I can get a copy of Plan 9 cheap?
> Just record it off the television.
BBC B BASIC programs through teletext. I didn't need reminding.
-- Richard Gadsden "[T]he secret to high uptimes is no one to use the network, no one to manage the network and no one to maintain the network" Chris Hacking, the Scary Devil Monastery
On Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:42:23 +1100, Lionel Lauer wrote: >(Ah, it's been a long time since I've heard any mention of the old >Sweatpacks...)
He still has it, although it's been modified to run a 6809 instead of a 6800. I'm not sure how long it's been since he last fired it up.
Ben -- Ben Coleman NJ8J http://oloryn.home.mindspring.com/ "I love the way Microsoft follows standards. In much the same manner that fish follow migrating caribou." Paul Tomblin
Matthew Crosby <cro...@nagina.cs.colorado.edu> wrote: >Ah, kids today. dselect as a clue filter? What happened to the old >faithful trio, sendmail.cf, ed and adb macros?
>I knew I'd been SAing too long when I was able to use ed comfortably >without once looking at the manuals
>Such a pity these have gone away. I mean, no one needs to rebuild boxes >without term* or whatever anymore, so ed's gone, that sissy m4 stuff has >come in for sendmail, and as for adb, Sun's new mdb is extendable with c >(though doesn't currently support an interpreted language other then >good ol adb; they claim none really can quite do the job, and it's true >that perl, python and tcl are all a little lacking on the ol manipulate >kernel data structure front).
>And now one doesn't need to go through setting up X at the config level, >or downloading all 40 disks of SLS, or even building your own kernels. >We come to the point instead where _dselect_ is considered a filter. >What can we do to stop today's kids getting soft? Require them all to >run Plan 9? Program in Intercal? >This is a serious problem, fellow BOFH's, one we need to think about.
[Warning: the following is true story and if the stuff below will ever become UI for you - accept my condolence. It _is_ scary, so think before reading further]
Give them what I got yesterday. As in, box that got a) Linux kernel running. b) init and bash running. c) serial and floppy - built as modules. And not loaded. d) no sash. e) no ethernet. f) bloody large number-crunching that Should Not Be Aborted(tm). g) libc and ld-linux.so - unlinked (self-LART by owner). Now, I could tell the guy to piss off, but... WTF? He had decent beer and was properly scared. Oh, well... So we have no exec() for anything dynamically linked. And we have no chance to access any external stuff - insmod is linked dynamically, so no insmod floppy for you. Shutting the system down was not an option due to (f) (aside of dealing with fsck later - umount(8) is dynamically linked too). Now, I knew that both /lib/libc.so-2.1.2 and /lib/ld-linux.so-2.1.2 were still alive - mmaped by init, for one. And /proc/1/maps would even contain their inumbers. So the plan of attack was to create a file in root and then cannibalize the entry (change inumber in the directory). Alas - not enough. In-core inode got zero i_nlink and if I would just create a link by hands it would not become positive. I.e. still remove-upon-close. But. But if we will manage to call link() on the hand-made link we will get i_nlink raised to 1 - iget() will find the same in-core inode, so we are OK. We'll have to revert the phony link to avoid PO'd fsck, but that's not a problem... So there we go: assuming that we got static ln echo >foo ln foo bar flip inumber in foo entry to point to libc ln foo /lib/libc.so-2.1.2 flip inumber.......................... bar repeat for ld-linux.so rm foo bar begin recovering other damage (self-LART was a bit larger). But... we don't have this flip stuff and we don't have (aaarrgh) static ln. Oh, shit... OK, but all we really need is a couple of syscalls, right? There we go: eax=__NR_link; ebx=s1; ecx=s2; int 0x80; eax=__NR_exit; ebx=0; int 0x80; s1: "foo" s2: "bar" The next step was getting the syscall numbers. grep? We don't need no stinkin' grep. # while read i; do case $i in *__NR_link*) echo $i;; esac; done </usr/include/asm/unistd.h #define __NR_link 9 # while read i; do case $i in *__NR_exit*) echo $i;; esac; done </usr/include/asm/unistd.h #define __NR_exit 1 #define __NR__exit __NR_exit
Now, scratching the head and recalling intel code... start: b8 09 00 00 00 bb (address of s1) b9 (address of s2) cd 80 b8 01 00 00 00 bb 00 00 00 00 cd 80 s1: 66 6f 6f 00 s2: 62 61 72 00
Fine, but... a.out support is compiled... you guessed it, as module and not currently loaded. So we are in for crufting up an ELF binary. OK, we don't actually need 100%-correct ELF, just something that will pass for the exec(). Now, we don't have shell scripts, but . will work. So the next step was rolling more(1) in shell and reading through the relevant code (surprisingly small - binfmt_elf.c and two headers). After much swearing the following abortion was created: 7f 45 4c 46 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 02 00 03 00 01 00 00 00 start______ 34 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 34 00 20 00 01 00 28 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 base_______ base_______ size_______ size_______ 05 00 00 00 00 10 00 00 start: b8 09 00 00 00 bb start+1d___ b9 start+21___ cd 80 b8 01 00 00 00 bb 00 00 00 00 cd 80 66 6f 6f 00 62 61 72 00 OK, set base to something page-aligned, start=base+54, size=79. There we go: 7f 45 4c 46 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 02 00 03 00 01 00 00 00 54 00 00 80 34 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 34 00 20 00 01 00 28 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 80 00 00 00 80 79 00 00 00 79 00 00 00 05 00 00 00 00 10 00 00 b8 09 00 00 00 bb 71 00 00 80 b9 75 00 00 80 cd 80 b8 01 00 00 00 bb 00 00 00 00 cd 80 66 6f 6f 00 62 61 72 00
well, while read l; do for i in `echo $l`; do echo -ne "\\$i"; done; done made for oct2bin, overwriting /usr/bin/emacs with the output of that gave us static equivalent of ln foo bar. And it worked. The rest was essentially the same - the only tricky part was to find the location of directory entry. Which was done with (lseek, read byte, exit(said_byte)) and shell wrapper around that. So we had a way to read a block and dump it on the console. The rest was obvious - start from relevant block in inode table and walk through the references... Once we got that, it was an easy ride - trick with inumber flipping brought libc and dynamic linker back and after that we had 99% of system back into the working state. Amazing how little you actually need to bring the system back to life...
-- All that blue light from Orthanc at night? That was Saruman, trying to moderate news.admin.palantir-abuse.sightings. Mike Andrews in the Monastery
Mike Andrews <mi...@mikea.ath.cx> wrote on Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:41:34 GMT: | Lionel Lauer <longw...@newsguy.com> wrote:
| : *Some* of us did many of our first installations with a soldering iron, | : *then* got the luxury of using toggle switches & a 'load memory' button.
| On target. I knew I'd graduated to the bigtime in 1964 when I found that | the CDC 3200 had keys so that I could type in the boot instructions, | instead of having to toggle-and-load them a la the old Rice Machine.
| Then came the CDC 3600 and 3800, which had hardwired boot code, and | I was in Heaven.
| Kids nowadays don't nkow how good they have it.
I'm not sure which disturbs me more, the fact that there are people here who have been playing this game since a good bit before I was born (0.772Ms) or the fact that I'm getting dangerously close to the "Kids nowadays" mindset myself.
<glances down> Ah, _good_ sigmonster. Paul -- --- Paul Mc Auley <pmcau...@iol.ie> -- - If it's too loud, you're too old.
Tanuki the Raccoon-dog <Tanuki@canis-^Hmajor.da^Hemon.co.uk> writes:
> Ever heard of wire-wrapping? Either lots of little 1N914 diodes > in a matrix, or, if you're really desperate, lots of little > ferrite cores on a crosswire-matrix...
This can't be UI. While I know, more or less, how ferrite core RAM works, I must profess ignorance as far as ferrite core *ROM* is concerned. Is the idea that you put cores at intersections where you want 1-bits and, rather than magnetizing them, just use them to induce current in a sense wire when current is pulsed appropriately?
On Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:41:34 GMT, Mike Andrews <mi...@mikea.ath.cx> wrote: >Kids nowadays don't nkow how good they have it.
If they're (un)lucky, kids get to work for a newspaper with insane purchasing policies. Then they get to work with wirewrap-era Pagestore systems and ATEX J11s, and have all the pleasure of 60s and 70s era computing.
One day, I'll recover from the trauma.
-- Rodger Donaldson rodg...@diaspora.gen.nz "Whenever you get mysterious behavior, try the -w switch!!! Whenever you don't get mysterious behavior, try using -w anyway."
rich...@tga.u-net.com (Richard Gadsden) wrote: >In article <2000Feb22.162141.19...@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu>, >fl...@dgp.toronto.edu (Alan J Rosenthal) wrote: >> Just record it off the television.
>BBC B BASIC programs through teletext. I didn't need reminding.
Same through Radio. Except in BASICODE, needing special interpreters to become BBC B BASIC, and also capable of becoming C64 BASIC, or GWBASIC, or...
