KERMIT-12 (or anything else) for the KL8-A?
Bob Armstrong
line serial mux for the PDP-8/A, not the much more common single line
KL8-E) ? If not KERMIT, is there any other terminal emulator that
works with the KL8-A?
For that matter, did DEC ever produce any software that used the KL8-
A?
Thanks,
Bob Armstrong
Johnny Billquist
> Is there a version of KERMIT-12 that works with the KL8-A (the four
> line serial mux for the PDP-8/A, not the much more common single line
> KL8-E) ? If not KERMIT, is there any other terminal emulator that
> works with the KL8-A?
Don't think so. Give me one, and I'll adapt my KERMIT implementation for it. :-)
> For that matter, did DEC ever produce any software that used the KL8-
> A?
I'm pretty sure that RTS-8 have a device driver for it.
I seem to remember seeing one the last time I was running through the sources...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
David Gesswein
Bob Armstrong <b...@jfcl.com> wrote:
> Is there a version of KERMIT-12 that works with the KL8-A (the four
>line serial mux for the PDP-8/A, not the much more common single line
>KL8-E) ? If not KERMIT, is there any other terminal emulator that
>works with the KL8-A?
>
> For that matter, did DEC ever produce any software that used the KL8-
>
Multos-8 seems to have support for it (not DEC though).
Mike Ross
> For that matter, did DEC ever produce any software that used the KL8-
>A?
Didn't WPS support it?
Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'
Johnny Billquist
> On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 12:54:16 -0700 (PDT), Bob Armstrong <b...@jfcl.com> wrote:
>
>> For that matter, did DEC ever produce any software that used the KL8-
>> A?
>
> Didn't WPS support it?
Haven't looked, but it sounds unlikely. WPS-8 after all, is a single user system
with very limited support for anything except the disk, the console terminal
(which is where you do all your work) and a printer. I think there was some
option of hooking a modem or serial connection to another machine, but why would
you ever want four serial lines in WPS-8?
Bob Armstrong
>why would you ever want four serial lines in WPS-8?
Wasn't the DEC DataSystem 310 a PDP-8/A based WPS system? It used a
VT52 as the editing terminal, and I suppose it's possible that there
was a timeshared version of WPS that supported four terminals at once.
Bob
Vincent Slyngstad
> On May 1, 6:23 am, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> >why would you ever want four serial lines in WPS-8?
>
> Wasn't the DEC DataSystem 310 a PDP-8/A based WPS system? It used a
> VT52 as the editing terminal, and I suppose it's possible that there
> was a timeshared version of WPS that supported four terminals at once.
I believe so, and looking at some of my WPS documents, there was
definitely KL8A support there, and something also used KL8A in the
DECnet software (which I know even less about).
I hadn't said anything, as I'm not sure that it is really a different
thing from the RTS support. Wasn't the multi-user WPS based on RTS?
I've never used either, so I only have a vague memory of reading that
somewhere. Maybe I'm thinking of Edusystem, or something.
Vince
Johnny Billquist
Never heard of a timeshared version of WPS-8, and I very much doubt one exists...
WPS-8 was based on, and running from an RX01 floppy... I have a copy here
somewhere...
Johnny Billquist
> "Bob Armstrong" wrote ...
>> On May 1, 6:23 am, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>> why would you ever want four serial lines in WPS-8?
>> Wasn't the DEC DataSystem 310 a PDP-8/A based WPS system? It used a
>> VT52 as the editing terminal, and I suppose it's possible that there
>> was a timeshared version of WPS that supported four terminals at once.
>
> I believe so, and looking at some of my WPS documents, there was
> definitely KL8A support there, and something also used KL8A in the
> DECnet software (which I know even less about).
That the DEC DataSystem 310 is a PDP-8/A is definitely true. However, they
didn't run WPS-8, but COS-300. A OS with DIBOL included... (I bet the C in COS
stands for Commercial. :-) )
It might have been time shared, but I really don't know for sure. Never seen
COS-300 in real life.
> I hadn't said anything, as I'm not sure that it is really a different
> thing from the RTS support. Wasn't the multi-user WPS based on RTS?
> I've never used either, so I only have a vague memory of reading that
> somewhere. Maybe I'm thinking of Edusystem, or something.
I think people are mixing systems and options up from hearsay here, but that's
just what I think.
I'll see if I can dig up any more information. It's been so long since I was
running through this documentation that I really don't remember where I have it.
Vincent Slyngstad
> Vincent Slyngstad skrev:
>> "Bob Armstrong" wrote ...
>>> On May 1, 6:23 am, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>>> why would you ever want four serial lines in WPS-8?
>>> Wasn't the DEC DataSystem 310 a PDP-8/A based WPS system? It used a
>>> VT52 as the editing terminal, and I suppose it's possible that there
>>> was a timeshared version of WPS that supported four terminals at once.
>>
>> I believe so, and looking at some of my WPS documents, there was
>> definitely KL8A support there, and something also used KL8A in the
>> DECnet software (which I know even less about).
>
> That the DEC DataSystem 310 is a PDP-8/A is definitely true. However, they
> didn't run WPS-8, but COS-300. A OS with DIBOL included... (I bet the C in
> COS stands for Commercial. :-) )
> It might have been time shared, but I really don't know for sure. Never
> seen COS-300 in real life.
Ah, OK. I didn't mean to confirm that the DataSystem 310 specifically
was the system that ran WPS, but should have said merely that there seems
to have been a PDP-8/A version of WPS with support for the KL8A.
>> I hadn't said anything, as I'm not sure that it is really a different
>> thing from the RTS support. Wasn't the multi-user WPS based on RTS?
>> I've never used either, so I only have a vague memory of reading that
>> somewhere. Maybe I'm thinking of Edusystem, or something.
>
> I think people are mixing systems and options up from hearsay here, but
> that's just what I think.
> I'll see if I can dig up any more information. It's been so long since I
> was running through this documentation that I really don't remember where
> I have it.
I could be. As I said, I've never seen the systems in question, and
am going off of various documents collected off the web. The files
in question are fragments of source code, though, so I'm not thinking
they represent mere delusion.
> Never heard of a timeshared version of WPS-8, and I very much doubt one
> exists...
> WPS-8 was based on, and running from an RX01 floppy... I have a copy here
> somewhere...
I have direct personal experience only with the DECmate stuff, which is
definitely not timeshared.
However, the WPS source code I have laying around talks about the KL8A.
Since the KL8A only fits in the 8/A, that seems to indicate an 8/A
version of WPS. The source code has lines like these:
wpsys.pa:
/QA3.3 MB 13-APR-78 PUT IN KL8A MADE BY BLT TO WS202
SYSTEM
and in wprt01.pa:
/SYSTEM DOCUMENT DESTINATION LINE USED
/WS80 HOST KL8A USER SELECTED
/ DP2,SQ1,SQ2 KL8A LINE 3
Of course, the source code I have isn't nearly complete, so I may not
be interpreting it correctly.
Vince
Johnny Billquist
> "Johnny Billquist" wrote in message ...
>> Vincent Slyngstad skrev:
>>> "Bob Armstrong" wrote ...
>>>> On May 1, 6:23 am, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>>>> why would you ever want four serial lines in WPS-8?
>>>> Wasn't the DEC DataSystem 310 a PDP-8/A based WPS system? It used a
>>>> VT52 as the editing terminal, and I suppose it's possible that there
>>>> was a timeshared version of WPS that supported four terminals at once.
>>> I believe so, and looking at some of my WPS documents, there was
>>> definitely KL8A support there, and something also used KL8A in the
>>> DECnet software (which I know even less about).
>> That the DEC DataSystem 310 is a PDP-8/A is definitely true. However, they
>> didn't run WPS-8, but COS-300. A OS with DIBOL included... (I bet the C in
>> COS stands for Commercial. :-) )
>> It might have been time shared, but I really don't know for sure. Never
>> seen COS-300 in real life.
>
> Ah, OK. I didn't mean to confirm that the DataSystem 310 specifically
> was the system that ran WPS, but should have said merely that there seems
> to have been a PDP-8/A version of WPS with support for the KL8A.
And in that it seems you are right, indeed.
>>> I hadn't said anything, as I'm not sure that it is really a different
>>> thing from the RTS support. Wasn't the multi-user WPS based on RTS?
>>> I've never used either, so I only have a vague memory of reading that
>>> somewhere. Maybe I'm thinking of Edusystem, or something.
>> I think people are mixing systems and options up from hearsay here, but
>> that's just what I think.
>> I'll see if I can dig up any more information. It's been so long since I
>> was running through this documentation that I really don't remember where
>> I have it.
>
> I could be. As I said, I've never seen the systems in question, and
> am going off of various documents collected off the web. The files
> in question are fragments of source code, though, so I'm not thinking
> they represent mere delusion.
:-)
I have various documentation lying around, but nothing very extensive on WPS-8.
>> Never heard of a timeshared version of WPS-8, and I very much doubt one
>> exists...
>> WPS-8 was based on, and running from an RX01 floppy... I have a copy here
>> somewhere...
>
> I have direct personal experience only with the DECmate stuff, which is
> definitely not timeshared.
>
> However, the WPS source code I have laying around talks about the KL8A.
> Since the KL8A only fits in the 8/A, that seems to indicate an 8/A
> version of WPS. The source code has lines like these:
>
> wpsys.pa:
> /QA3.3 MB 13-APR-78 PUT IN KL8A MADE BY BLT TO WS202
> SYSTEM
>
> and in wprt01.pa:
> /SYSTEM DOCUMENT DESTINATION LINE USED
>
> /WS80 HOST KL8A USER SELECTED
> / DP2,SQ1,SQ2 KL8A LINE 3
>
> Of course, the source code I have isn't nearly complete, so I may not
> be interpreting it correctly.
>
> Vince
Well, what you have certainly looks like some support for the KL8A anyway.
Interesting... I should try to locate my WPS8 floppy and see which version it
is, and if it might have support for the KL8A then.
But I'm still rather sure it was single-user. But it might either be that they
had support for additional serial lines for various uses, or that maybe they
just supported a serial line on a KL8A just as well as other serial cards. The
code snipped above refers to line 3. Line 3 on the KL8A is the only one with
full modem control. So if you just want to support one line, that's the line
you'll be playing with, I'd guess.
Johnny Billquist
well...
Mike Ross
wrote:
<big snip>
>However, the WPS source code I have laying around talks about the KL8A.
>Since the KL8A only fits in the 8/A, that seems to indicate an 8/A
>version of WPS.
Absolutely. The WPS system I had consisted of an 8/A, and three RL02s in a pair
of short racks. And I'm pretty sure it supported multiple terminals; that
configuration would have been overkill for a single-user system!
Johnny Billquist
> On Thu, 01 May 2008 18:59:23 GMT, "Vincent Slyngstad" <v...@no.spam.msn.com>
> wrote:
>
> <big snip>
>
>> However, the WPS source code I have laying around talks about the KL8A.
>> Since the KL8A only fits in the 8/A, that seems to indicate an 8/A
>> version of WPS.
>
> Absolutely. The WPS system I had consisted of an 8/A, and three RL02s in a pair
> of short racks. And I'm pretty sure it supported multiple terminals; that
> configuration would have been overkill for a single-user system!
That sounds very extreme for any kind of PDP-8 system. That much disk space is
pretty difficult to even use under any other PDP-8 OS. :-)
Are you really sure it was delivered with WPS-8? Do you have the software
around? This is the first ever I've heard of such a version from someone who
claims to have seen it.
I also wonder about the performance. WPS-8 on a single user PDP-8, running from
RX01 (which is what I have) is not exactly a speed demon. I wonder how it would
appear if it was a multi-user system. Hmm, I wonder if it even runs with
interrupts... Think it's polled... Must have been a wholly separate development
of WPS-8 in that case.
Mike Ross
>Mike Ross skrev:
>> On Thu, 01 May 2008 18:59:23 GMT, "Vincent Slyngstad" <v...@no.spam.msn.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> <big snip>
>>
>>> However, the WPS source code I have laying around talks about the KL8A.
>>> Since the KL8A only fits in the 8/A, that seems to indicate an 8/A
>>> version of WPS.
>>
>> Absolutely. The WPS system I had consisted of an 8/A, and three RL02s in a pair
>> of short racks. And I'm pretty sure it supported multiple terminals; that
>> configuration would have been overkill for a single-user system!
>
>That sounds very extreme for any kind of PDP-8 system. That much disk space is
>pretty difficult to even use under any other PDP-8 OS. :-)
>Are you really sure it was delivered with WPS-8? Do you have the software
>around? This is the first ever I've heard of such a version from someone who
>claims to have seen it.
Absolutely. Given enough time I'd be able to dig up the disk packs and manuals
that came with it (though the system itself is no longer complete; the drives
were recycled and used with other systems etc.). It was most assuredly an 8/A
and it booted from RL, to the WPS menu system. I had it running in the back of
the lab of the place I was working in the early 1990s, much to the amusement of
my boss!
I just have a sneaking question in the back of my mind as to the disks...
perhaps they were RL01, not RL02? Minor detail.
>I also wonder about the performance. WPS-8 on a single user PDP-8, running from
>RX01 (which is what I have) is not exactly a speed demon. I wonder how it would
>appear if it was a multi-user system. Hmm, I wonder if it even runs with
>interrupts... Think it's polled... Must have been a wholly separate development
>of WPS-8 in that case.
Possibly. It's the only version of WPS I've ever used, so I can't comment
further.
Johnny Billquist
> On Sun, 04 May 2008 12:10:27 +0200, Johnny Billquist <b...@update.uu.se> wrote:
>
>> Mike Ross skrev:
>>> On Thu, 01 May 2008 18:59:23 GMT, "Vincent Slyngstad" <v...@no.spam.msn.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> <big snip>
>>>
>>>> However, the WPS source code I have laying around talks about the KL8A.
>>>> Since the KL8A only fits in the 8/A, that seems to indicate an 8/A
>>>> version of WPS.
>>> Absolutely. The WPS system I had consisted of an 8/A, and three RL02s in a pair
>>> of short racks. And I'm pretty sure it supported multiple terminals; that
>>> configuration would have been overkill for a single-user system!
>> That sounds very extreme for any kind of PDP-8 system. That much disk space is
>> pretty difficult to even use under any other PDP-8 OS. :-)
>> Are you really sure it was delivered with WPS-8? Do you have the software
>> around? This is the first ever I've heard of such a version from someone who
>> claims to have seen it.
>
> Absolutely. Given enough time I'd be able to dig up the disk packs and manuals
> that came with it (though the system itself is no longer complete; the drives
> were recycled and used with other systems etc.). It was most assuredly an 8/A
> and it booted from RL, to the WPS menu system. I had it running in the back of
> the lab of the place I was working in the early 1990s, much to the amusement of
> my boss!
Well, RL01/RL02 drives should still be easy to locate. I know I have a bunch,
but I'm in Sweden... :-)
That software and documentation should be transferred somewhere so people can
play with it. :-)
> I just have a sneaking question in the back of my mind as to the disks...
> perhaps they were RL01, not RL02? Minor detail.
Definitely a minor detail. 5 megs is still plenty...
I think I'll fire up my WPS-8 diskette tonight, and see what I can see...
>> I also wonder about the performance. WPS-8 on a single user PDP-8, running from
>> RX01 (which is what I have) is not exactly a speed demon. I wonder how it would
>> appear if it was a multi-user system. Hmm, I wonder if it even runs with
>> interrupts... Think it's polled... Must have been a wholly separate development
>> of WPS-8 in that case.
>
> Possibly. It's the only version of WPS I've ever used, so I can't comment
> further.
I'd definitely want to find out more on this. In all the documentation and
tidbits I have, I've never seen anything on this...
Vincent Slyngstad
> Mike Ross skrev:
>> On Thu, 01 May 2008 18:59:23 GMT, "Vincent Slyngstad"
>>> Since the KL8A only fits in the 8/A, that seems to indicate an 8/A
>>> version of WPS.
>>
>> Absolutely. The WPS system I had consisted of an 8/A, and three RL02s in
>> a pair
>> of short racks. And I'm pretty sure it supported multiple terminals; that
>> configuration would have been overkill for a single-user system!
>
> That sounds very extreme for any kind of PDP-8 system. That much disk
> space is pretty difficult to even use under any other PDP-8 OS. :-)
> Are you really sure it was delivered with WPS-8? Do you have the software
> around? This is the first ever I've heard of such a version from someone
> who claims to have seen it.
>
> I also wonder about the performance. WPS-8 on a single user PDP-8, running
> from RX01 (which is what I have) is not exactly a speed demon. I wonder
> how it would appear if it was a multi-user system.
I found something that appears relevant. At
http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/queryb.pl?level=1aa-5267c;id=0
in c9-end, and specifically chapter 18 "WS102 and WS202 Special Features":
"Two special features are unique to the WS102 and WS202 systems.
1. <B>Both users can look at the same screen</B> and thereby share the same
document. See section 18.1 for details.
2. <B>Each user can specify the order in which documents are printed.</B>
You can alternate printing your documents with the other user, have all
your documents printed first, or allow all the other user's documents to
be printed before yours. See section 18.2 for details.
Both of these features are controlled by Main Menu settings which appear
only in WS102 and WS202 systems.
References to the WS102 system in this chapter also apply to the WS202
system."
(I added <B>bold</B> markings when retyping the above.)
This chapter seems to be describing a two-user version of WPS.
Also, on appendix B, page 7, appears the fifth Main Menu page, available
only to WS102 and WS202 users:
SS = Allow the other terminal to share your screen (SS yes)
VS = View the screen of the other terminal
XK = Exchange Keyboard with the other terminal
SP = Share Printer (SP no)
SD = Send document to the other terminal
M = More main menu selections
and apparently on B-8, the SD option was removed between version 2.7 and
version 3.
Vince
Mike Ross
>Mike Ross skrev:
>> On Thu, 01 May 2008 18:59:23 GMT, "Vincent Slyngstad" <v...@no.spam.msn.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> <big snip>
>>
>>> However, the WPS source code I have laying around talks about the KL8A.
>>> Since the KL8A only fits in the 8/A, that seems to indicate an 8/A
>>> version of WPS.
>>
>> Absolutely. The WPS system I had consisted of an 8/A, and three RL02s in a pair
>> of short racks. And I'm pretty sure it supported multiple terminals; that
>> configuration would have been overkill for a single-user system!
>
>That sounds very extreme for any kind of PDP-8 system. That much disk space is
>pretty difficult to even use under any other PDP-8 OS. :-)
>Are you really sure it was delivered with WPS-8? Do you have the software
>around? This is the first ever I've heard of such a version from someone who
>claims to have seen it.
>
>I also wonder about the performance. WPS-8 on a single user PDP-8, running from
>RX01 (which is what I have) is not exactly a speed demon. I wonder how it would
>appear if it was a multi-user system. Hmm, I wonder if it even runs with
>interrupts... Think it's polled... Must have been a wholly separate development
>of WPS-8 in that case.
I've dug up the disk packs and docs. What I have is 'WPS-8 Disk-Based 200 Series
V4.4' from 1981. Looking at the management guide (AA-J311B-TA) it's very clear;
the configuration described was an 8/a with 128k, 4 x RL01, 1 x RX01, and this
supported up to 8 terminals. So you could have up to 8 simultaneous users
banging away on this... there was a logon procedure with supported more than 8
individual usernames, of course...
Johnny Billquist
Two things immediately pops into my mind.
1. Make copies! :-)
2. This is then a machine with the KT8A option. That's a very cool device, which
makes it possible to almost get the hardware to give you multiple virtual PDP-8
at the same time. It do solve a lot of problems. My only problem (personally,
that is) is that I've yet to find a KT8A of my own. :-) They are rare, as are
the large memory boards.