Thanks to Rich Alderson, PDPplanet, and Vulcan, Inc.
Mike Roach
My family and I (including my parents, a Sister-in-Law, and a couple of
nephews) toured the machine rooms where the online museum is located. We
started with a PDP-7 in the midst of restoration that was in use for
about 40 years! We next saw a couple of live VAXen heating up a small
machine room (no AC), then moved upstairs to see the 2065 and the XKL
TOAD-1.
On the way I saw a couple of familiar manuals in the shelf, including
the OS/8 manual and Introduction to Programming (both PDP-8 books),
but none of the PDP-10 phone books. After explaining the big machines
and what they were used for Rich let me key in the PDP-8/E DECTAPE
boot loader but I fat-fingered a bit somewhere and the DECtape didn't
spin. At least what I keyed in ran until I set the HALT switch (and it
didn't write the tape either!)
I think my wife had the most questions and she was the reluctant
participant. I was really surprised when my 5YO asked if we could
play with the computers! 8^) I see I'm going to have to give her some
hands-on time with the front panel of the SBC-6120 once I finish it.
Rich, there's a couple questions I forgot to ask: has anyone asked
for help reading old media? Were you able to pick up any interesting
software for the PDP-7? Finally, we're going to EMP (Experience Music
Project) Saturday for music and SciFi (my dad knew about it but the rest
of us didn't until you mentioned it!) So there will be something for
everyone (music) and something for my dad, wife, and me (SciFi) 8^)
--
An English judge, growing weary of the barrister's long-winded
summation, leaned over the bench and remarked, "I've heard your
arguments, Sir Geoffrey, and I'm none the wiser!" Sir Geoffrey
responded, "That may be, Milord, but at least you're better informed!"
jmfbahciv
> My family and I (including my parents, a Sister-in-Law, and a couple of
> nephews) toured the machine rooms where the online museum is located. We
> started with a PDP-7 in the midst of restoration that was in use for
> about 40 years! We next saw a couple of live VAXen heating up a small
> machine room (no AC), then moved upstairs to see the 2065 and the XKL
> TOAD-1.
>
> On the way I saw a couple of familiar manuals in the shelf, including
> the OS/8 manual and Introduction to Programming (both PDP-8 books),
> but none of the PDP-10 phone books. After explaining the big machines
> and what they were used for Rich let me key in the PDP-8/E DECTAPE
> boot loader but I fat-fingered a bit somewhere and the DECtape didn't
> spin. At least what I keyed in ran until I set the HALT switch (and it
> didn't write the tape either!)
>
> I think my wife had the most questions and she was the reluctant
> participant. I was really surprised when my 5YO asked if we could
> play with the computers! 8^) I see I'm going to have to give her some
> hands-on time with the front panel of the SBC-6120 once I finish it.
Now you know why people loved the PDP-ns. All of those machines
got people to want to play with them.
<snip>
/BAH
Quadibloc
> Now you know why people loved the PDP-ns. All of those machines
> got people to want to play with them.
I've advocated adding a row of six switches and a row of four lights
to the PC keyboard. This would make the PC (fully) compatible with
(older versions of) the FORTRAN language (by allowing the sense light
and sense switch statements to work properly) and it would help to
bring back the sense of fun promised by the lights and switches of
classic front panels.
John Savard
jmfbahciv
That's a good idea.
/BAH
Pat Farrell
> I've advocated adding a row of six switches and a row of four lights
> to the PC keyboard. This would make the PC (fully) compatible with
> (older versions of) the FORTRAN language (by allowing the sense light
> and sense switch statements to work properly) and it would help to
> bring back the sense of fun promised by the lights and switches of
> classic front panels.
For sure, flashing lights were part of the attraction. And the KL was
the first of the evil machines replacing nice lights and switches with
computers.
Anybody got a good picture of a KI-10 with switches and lights?
--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/
jmfbahciv
It was given to Jim and his cohorts framed it for him. I don't
have it in bits. Putting the three poster-sized pictures I have
into machine-readable format is on my todo list.
/BAH
Mike Ross
This is the least worst I've seen:
http://simh.trailing-edge.com/photos/ki10.jpg
And there's a tantalising glimpse of the only machine that still exists (?)
here:
http://www.stupi.se/Bilder/pdp-10/jpg1/dscn2941.jpg
Someone must have one on a shelf... I know Mark C. has a KA panel? I'd like to
see high-res photos of KA and KI...
Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'
Al Kossow
>
> Someone must have one on a shelf... I know Mark C. has a KA panel? I'd like to
> see high-res photos of KA and KI...
>
I will check with the owners of a KA and KI panel to see about pictures.
In the meantime, I've put the picture of the KA panel from a PDP-10 brochure
up under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/KA10.
Mark Crispin
> Someone must have one on a shelf... I know Mark C. has a KA panel? I'd like to
> see high-res photos of KA and KI...
KA (former Stanford SAIL), KI (former Stanford IMSSS and, I think,
Rutgers), PDP-12, and PDP-15.
-- Mark --
http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
Rich Alderson
> My family and I (including my parents, a Sister-in-Law, and a couple of
> nephews) toured the machine rooms where the online museum is located. We
> started with a PDP-7 in the midst of restoration that was in use for
> about 40 years! We next saw a couple of live VAXen heating up a small
> machine room (no AC), then moved upstairs to see the 2065 and the XKL
> TOAD-1.
Thanks for bringing the family! It was fun to talk to everyone.
> On the way I saw a couple of familiar manuals in the shelf, including
> the OS/8 manual and Introduction to Programming (both PDP-8 books),
> but none of the PDP-10 phone books. After explaining the big machines
> and what they were used for Rich let me key in the PDP-8/E DECTAPE
> boot loader but I fat-fingered a bit somewhere and the DECtape didn't
> spin. At least what I keyed in ran until I set the HALT switch (and it
> didn't write the tape either!)
After Mike left, I fingered in the DECtape boot myself and had the same
result. I had not noticed that the tape itself was off the head to avoid
transients at power-up--that was pointed out to me this morning. (I'll
mention here that I was alone at the museum--one member of the team was
out at lunch and the other was home rebuilding his deck.) So it was
curator error that kept the only current interactive from working. :-(
> I think my wife had the most questions and she was the reluctant
> participant. I was really surprised when my 5YO asked if we could
> play with the computers! 8^) I see I'm going to have to give her some
> hands-on time with the front panel of the SBC-6120 once I finish it.
It was a pleasure having Mike and his family visit, and I'm sorry that we
are still putting things together or we'd have had some things for his
younger daughter to do. We're meeting some resistance to the notion that
non-specialists would enjoy visiting our little museum, to which her desire
to play is a perfect counterargument.
> Rich, there's a couple questions I forgot to ask: has anyone asked
> for help reading old media? Were you able to pick up any interesting
> software for the PDP-7? Finally, we're going to EMP (Experience Music
> Project) Saturday for music and SciFi (my dad knew about it but the rest
> of us didn't until you mentioned it!) So there will be something for
> everyone (music) and something for my dad, wife, and me (SciFi) 8^)
I have from time to time gotten requests for help reading old 9-track tapes
and have been happy to help. We'll also be able to handle DECtapes and
paper tape with the 8/e, and I'm thinking about the issues with RP06 media.
We have DECSYS-7, as well as the PDP-9/15 Foreground/Background monitor,
and the software used by the UOregon High Energy Physics lab to analyze
the data from their particle accelerator, along with sample data on DECtape.
I've put out a query regarding other, more famous, software but haven't
received an ACK yet.
Next time you're all in town, we'll have things for everyone to do, so I
hope you visit again! We're looking to be open for business officially
in August.
--
Rich Alderson "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime."
ne...@alderson.users.panix.com --Death, of the Endless
Quadibloc
> Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
> Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
Liberty is part of democracy. You're thinking of the dictatorship of
the (vulpine) proletariat.
John Savard
cjl
And remember, all animals are equal, but some animals are >= than
others.
cjl [just had to say it! :-) ]
Mark Crispin
Democracy does not guarantee liberty. It is quite possible to be
democratic yet have no liberty: Zimbabwe, Singapore, Iran,...
Liberty, on the other hand, guarantees democracy and restrains the
tendency of democracies to vote in tyrannies.
The sheep is no fox. Nor does the armed sheep dictate the wolves'
decision on lunch; the sheep merely vetoes mutton as one of the choices.
The wolves are perfectly free to decide upon venison instead. If Brother
Sheep chooses to go off on his own and eat grass, well, that's just all
the more vension for wolves, isn't it?
-- Mark --
Peter Flass
Except the switches and lights, and the ICs to drive them, would
probably cost as much as the rest of the PC.
TrailingEdgeTechnologies
Vulpine is foxes.
Lupine is wolves (canis lupis).
Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA
(who on his last trip (on the aluminum chassis golf cart (pace
/BAH)) around the ark-Pay late last night had a sturdy red fox
trot in front of the headlights on his/her way from the lake to the
upstream marshes along the fence line).
Charlie Gibbs
Peter...@Yahoo.com (Peter Flass) writes:
> jmfbahciv wrote:
>
>> Quadibloc wrote:
>>
>>> On Jun 20, 5:43 am, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Now you know why people loved the PDP-ns. All of those machines
>>>> got people to want to play with them.
>>>
>>> I've advocated adding a row of six switches and a row of four lights
>>> to the PC keyboard. This would make the PC (fully) compatible with
>>> (older versions of) the FORTRAN language (by allowing the sense
>>> light and sense switch statements to work properly) and it would
>>> help to bring back the sense of fun promised by the lights and
>>> switches of classic front panels.
>>
>> That's a good idea.
>
> Except the switches and lights, and the ICs to drive them, would
> probably cost as much as the rest of the PC.
That doesn't stop the people who eagerly snap up everything from
computers to boom boxes, all of which are full of flashing lights
(nearly always that piercing blue that I can't focus on). And
those lights don't do anything, except to impress people who
neither have nor want a clue as to what's really going on.
--
/~\ cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
jmfbahciv
So what? It provides the hands-on bit manipulations that is required
to do anything with any computer beneath the skirts of all GUIs.
It makes kids aware of what is going on to make things work. those
who don't care will dismiss it. However, those who do care will
continue to want to scratch the itch of learning anything they
can about how computers work.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
Liberty is a check rein for equality; equality is a check
rein for freedom. Both are required for a long-term
functional and propserous society and economy.
/BAH
Quadibloc
> jmfbahciv wrote:
> > Quadibloc wrote:
> >> I've advocated adding a row of six switches and a row of four lights
> >> to the PC keyboard. This would make the PC (fully) compatible with
> >> (older versions of) the FORTRAN language (by allowing the sense light
> >> and sense switch statements to work properly) and it would help to
> >> bring back the sense of fun promised by the lights and switches of
> >> classic front panels.
> > That's a good idea.
> Except the switches and lights, and the ICs to drive them, would
> probably cost as much as the rest of the PC.
It shouldn't be that bad. After all, most keyboards already have
lights for num lock, caps lock, and scroll lock, so four extra lights
shouldn't be too difficult. And many keyboards have lots of extra
buttons for launching applications or playing back sound files and the
like. Switches would be no worse. The main problem would be assigning
scan codes and command bytes to it; however, since this would be a
unique and exotic feature, and many keyboards use exotic codes now
that aren't standardized for their extra features, it shouldn't be
that difficult to work something out.
On the other hand, anything approaching a full front panel would cost
about as much as a PC.
John Savard
Mark Crispin
> Liberty is a check rein for equality; equality is a check
> rein for freedom. Both are required for a long-term
> functional and propserous society and economy.
[Quite OT...]
You nailed it Barb; although I would make a slight revision. The
desirable aspect is "equality of opportunity", not "equality of result".
Too many people confuse the two.
An enterprise -- be it a company, a society, or a nation -- functions best
when the worker bees perceive a direct relationship between the effort
they put in and what they get back.
An early sign of trouble in an enterprise is when that relationship breaks
down.
-- Mark --
Dave Garland
> And many keyboards have lots of extra
> buttons for launching applications or playing back sound files and the
> like. Switches would be no worse. The main problem would be assigning
> scan codes and command bytes to it; however, since this would be a
> unique and exotic feature, and many keyboards use exotic codes now
> that aren't standardized for their extra features, it shouldn't be
> that difficult to work something out.
Many of those keyboards let you reprogram the nonstandard keys. But,
we're talking about more switches than that, aren't we? And there's
still the lights.. LEDs aren't expensive but getting them connected
might be.
Sites like hackaday are always running projects that use arduino
controllers. If one knew what one was doing (that lets me out) I
suspect you could make a USB- or serial-connected device with all the
switches and lights one could possibly want.
Dave
Quadibloc
> Many of those keyboards let you reprogram the nonstandard keys. But,
> we're talking about more switches than that, aren't we? And there's
> still the lights.. LEDs aren't expensive but getting them connected
> might be.
I'm sure that a custom job would be expensive. I was thinking about
only six switches and four lights, though. (The sense switches and
sense lights that form one small part of the IBM 704 front panel,
included in the original FORTRAN language and preserved in FORTRAN II,
FORTRAN IV, and even Fortran 77, although by then they were at least
deprecated. So they didn't make the cut for Fortran 90... or was it in
90 they were deprecated, and in 95 they were out? Come to think of it,
I actually think that this latter scenario is the correct one.)
John Savard
Quadibloc
> You nailed it Barb; although I would make a slight revision. The
> desirable aspect is "equality of opportunity", not "equality of result".
> Too many people confuse the two.
But sometimes it isn't _confusion_ that's involved.
Given, as a fact, or as a postulate:
All identifiable ethnic groups of humans, including as an example (but
not limited to) white Americans and African-Americans, are absolutely
equal (at least within the accuracy of any conceivable measurement) in
average distribution of any alleles related to the following traits:
- intelligence, in whatever form, including IQ,
- emotional factors of temperament which may affect employability,
- specialized talents (i.e., musical ability, ability to draw)
one can therefore conclude that
if equality of result is not noted between African-Americans and white
Americans,
it can safely concluded that either inequality of opportunity now
exists, or it had existed at some earlier point in the lifetimes of
many Americans now living.
Hence, some people attribute "confusion" about the distinction between
equality of opportunity and equality of result to others where that is
not the issue; rather, it is simply that, to them, equality of result
is the evidence that makes the existence of inequality of opportunity
a fact that is as plain as day.
John Savard
glen herrmannsfeldt
< I'm sure that a custom job would be expensive. I was thinking about
< only six switches and four lights, though. (The sense switches and
< sense lights that form one small part of the IBM 704 front panel,
< included in the original FORTRAN language and preserved in FORTRAN II,
< FORTRAN IV, and even Fortran 77, although by then they were at least
< deprecated. So they didn't make the cut for Fortran 90... or was it in
< 90 they were deprecated, and in 95 they were out? Come to think of it,
< I actually think that this latter scenario is the correct one.)
They are not part of the Fortran 66 standard, but IBM Fortran IV
supported SLITE and SLITET, the ability to turn virtual sense
lights on and off, and test them. That is, a very complicated
four bit memory. There are no actual lights to go with the bits.
There were many Fortran II features brought into Fortran IV for
back compatibility.
-- glen
Peter Flass
> On Jun 23, 11:49 am, Mark Crispin <m...@panda.com> wrote:
>
>> You nailed it Barb; although I would make a slight revision. The
>> desirable aspect is "equality of opportunity", not "equality of result".
>> Too many people confuse the two.
>
> But sometimes it isn't _confusion_ that's involved.
>
> Given, as a fact, or as a postulate:
>
> All identifiable ethnic groups of humans, including as an example (but
> not limited to) white Americans and African-Americans, are absolutely
> equal (at least within the accuracy of any conceivable measurement) in
> average distribution of any alleles related to the following traits:
>
> - intelligence, in whatever form, including IQ,
> - emotional factors of temperament which may affect employability,
> - specialized talents (i.e., musical ability, ability to draw)
>
> one can therefore conclude that
>
> if equality of result is not noted between African-Americans and white
> Americans,
>
> it can safely concluded that either inequality of opportunity now
> exists, or it had existed at some earlier point in the lifetimes of
> many Americans now living.
Not at all a safe conclusion. Look at two ethnic groups of pupils in a
school, mentioning no names. One group sees education as a way out of
poverty and so makes sure their children work hard and get good grades.
The second group sees education as somehow treason to their cherished
cultural values, and doesn't care if the children work. In fact, their
peers make fun of them if they do well. Obviously no equality of
result, despite equality of opportunity.
This is not true of all individuals, but seems often to be true in
aggregate. You can see the results.
Walter Bushell
Peter Flass <Peter...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
> Not at all a safe conclusion. Look at two ethnic groups of pupils in a
> school, mentioning no names. One group sees education as a way out of
> poverty and so makes sure their children work hard and get good grades.
> The second group sees education as somehow treason to their cherished
> cultural values, and doesn't care if the children work. In fact, their
> peers make fun of them if they do well. Obviously no equality of
> result, despite equality of opportunity.
Taunting is one level, but it frequently escalates to beatings and
mothers keeping their kids home from school, because they get beat up.
And the amount of pull either way differs for various groups with some
in the middle. Some groups value scholarship for its own sake and honor
those who pursue careers that don't lead to making a lot of money.
Quadibloc
> Not at all a safe conclusion. Look at two ethnic groups of pupils in a
> school, mentioning no names. One group sees education as a way out of
> poverty and so makes sure their children work hard and get good grades.
> The second group sees education as somehow treason to their cherished
> cultural values, and doesn't care if the children work. In fact, their
> peers make fun of them if they do well. Obviously no equality of
> result, despite equality of opportunity.
Oh, that is true enough. I've addressed this issue in other posts, not
being even afraid to name names.
The alienation of some groups from mainstream society, though, is
itself one of the effects of past discrimination.
John Savard
Walter Bushell
<805a7843-228d-4681...@p21g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
No to mention present discrimination.
<http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshots/entry/webfeatures_snapshots_archiv
e_09172003/>
Where apparently it was shown that a white man with a criminal record
was called back more often than a black man without a criminal record.
Hey, the hiring process is highly subjective and subject to unconscious
screening. It could be that black candidates speak a different dialect
of body language and are harder for white people to read.
Mike Ross
Peter Flass
Probably true enough, but how far back do you want to go to claim
discrimination? I would assume all USAians here have ancestors who
immigrated, and I wouldn't doubt most of them suffered discrimination.
Although our current generation may have slipped quite a bit, our
ancestors, at least, worked very hard to assimilate and have their
children get ahead.
jmfbahciv
> On Tue, 23 Jun 2009, jmfbahciv posted:
>> Liberty is a check rein for equality; equality is a check
>> rein for freedom. Both are required for a long-term
>> functional and propserous society and economy.
>
> [Quite OT...]
>
> You nailed it Barb; although I would make a slight revision. The
> desirable aspect is "equality of opportunity", not "equality of result".
Yup. I never write this stuff very well. thanks.
> Too many people confuse the two.
Oh, boy! Do they!
>
> An enterprise -- be it a company, a society, or a nation -- functions
> best when the worker bees perceive a direct relationship between the
> effort they put in and what they get back.
>
> An early sign of trouble in an enterprise is when that relationship
> breaks down.
Yup. Pride in one's work is extremely important. I read someplace
that the kibbutzes in Israel were less productive than the farmers
who owned their own. The kibbutzes had essentially a 9-5 work
ethic and the other farmers had incentive to put in as many
hours as necessary to produce.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
Oh, but setting the switches and seeing what happens, especially
if you get spectacular crashes, is very educational. the best
bit gods made more mistakes than anybody else. Making mistakes
and analyzing why they goofed things up is the main fun in learning.
That's why labs are so important.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
has a right in the pursuit of happiness. It says nothing about
attaining that happiness.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
to communicate with the operator about when to do some
task.
/BAH
Peter Flass
act that is as plain as day.
>>
> One thing to note is that the US Constitution declares that everybody
> has a right in the pursuit of happiness. It says nothing about
> attaining that happiness.
>
Isn't that the Declaration of Independence?
Mike Ross
<snip>
>One thing to note is that the US Constitution declares that everybody
>has a right in the pursuit of happiness. It says nothing about
>attaining that happiness.
That turns out not to be the case... that phrase is in the Declaration of
Independence, not the Constitution.
Mike (an immigrant who learned his history & civics!)
Patrick Scheible
No, you're thinking of the Declaration of Independence.
-- Patrick
Charlie Gibbs
dave.g...@wizinfo.com (Dave Garland) writes:
> Sites like hackaday are always running projects that use arduino
> controllers. If one knew what one was doing (that lets me out) I
> suspect you could make a USB- or serial-connected device with all
> the switches and lights one could possibly want.
Oh boy! Time for the 360/75 emulation.
Charlie Gibbs
m...@panda.com (Mark Crispin) writes:
> On Tue, 23 Jun 2009, jmfbahciv posted:
>
>> Liberty is a check rein for equality; equality is a check
>> rein for freedom. Both are required for a long-term
>> functional and propserous society and economy.
>
> [Quite OT...]
>
> You nailed it Barb; although I would make a slight revision. The
> desirable aspect is "equality of opportunity", not "equality of
> result". Too many people confuse the two.
>
> An enterprise -- be it a company, a society, or a nation -- functions
> best when the worker bees perceive a direct relationship between the
> effort they put in and what they get back.
>
> An early sign of trouble in an enterprise is when that relationship
> breaks down.
Such as in our current "of the rich, by the rich, for the rich" society.
"You can't save the earth unless you're willing to make other people
sacrifice." -- Dogbert
Walter Bushell
wrote:
Various forms of debugging, each sense switch could have specific
printout associated with it.
Charles Richmond
> Quadibloc wrote:
>>
>> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
>>
>> it can safely concluded that either inequality of opportunity now
>> exists, or it had existed at some earlier point in the lifetimes of
>> many Americans now living.
>>
>> Hence, some people attribute "confusion" about the distinction between
>> equality of opportunity and equality of result to others where that is
>> not the issue; rather, it is simply that, to them, equality of result
>> is the evidence that makes the existence of inequality of opportunity
>> a fact that is as plain as day.
>>
> One thing to note is that the US Constitution declares that everybody
> has a right in the pursuit of happiness. It says nothing about
> attaining that happiness.
>
> /BAH
Actually the "pursuit of happiness" is only mentioned in the Declaration
of Independence, *not* the Constitution.
Think of it this way: You are *not* promised a rose garden, just the
right to plant roses if you want.
--
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net |
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
Charles Richmond
> In article <alpine.OSX.2.00.0...@hsinghsing.panda.com>,
> m...@panda.com (Mark Crispin) writes:
>
>> On Tue, 23 Jun 2009, jmfbahciv posted:
>>
>>> Liberty is a check rein for equality; equality is a check
>>> rein for freedom. Both are required for a long-term
>>> functional and propserous society and economy.
>> [Quite OT...]
>>
>> You nailed it Barb; although I would make a slight revision. The
>> desirable aspect is "equality of opportunity", not "equality of
>> result". Too many people confuse the two.
>>
>> An enterprise -- be it a company, a society, or a nation -- functions
>> best when the worker bees perceive a direct relationship between the
>> effort they put in and what they get back.
>>
>> An early sign of trouble in an enterprise is when that relationship
>> breaks down.
>
> Such as in our current "of the rich, by the rich, for the rich" society.
>
> "You can't save the earth unless you're willing to make other people
> sacrifice." -- Dogbert
>
It's like the Golden Rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules. ;-)
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
'Kulaks'.
And yet the monasteries prosper(ed).
Walter Bushell
"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Ah! The communist collectivization into Kholhozes vs the independant
> 'Kulaks'.
> And yet the monasteries prosper(ed).
They didn't have to support their children.
jmfbahciv
Yep. thanks for the correction.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
> On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 06:50:02 -0400, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> One thing to note is that the US Constitution declares that everybody
>> has a right in the pursuit of happiness. It says nothing about
>> attaining that happiness.
>
> That turns out not to be the case... that phrase is in the Declaration of
> Independence, not the Constitution.
>
> Mike (an immigrant who learned his history & civics!)
My point still stands.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
> jmfbahciv wrote:
>> Quadibloc wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
>>>
>>> it can safely concluded that either inequality of opportunity now
>>> exists, or it had existed at some earlier point in the lifetimes of
>>> many Americans now living.
>>>
>>> Hence, some people attribute "confusion" about the distinction between
>>> equality of opportunity and equality of result to others where that is
>>> not the issue; rather, it is simply that, to them, equality of result
>>> is the evidence that makes the existence of inequality of opportunity
>>> a fact that is as plain as day.
>>>
>> One thing to note is that the US Constitution declares that everybody
>> has a right in the pursuit of happiness. It says nothing about
>> attaining that happiness.
>>
>> /BAH
>
> Actually the "pursuit of happiness" is only mentioned in the Declaration
> of Independence, *not* the Constitution.
Yep.
>
> Think of it this way: You are *not* promised a rose garden, just the
> right to plant roses if you want.
Nope. Not even that. You have a right to find some roses to plant.
There is nothing that says you will be given those roses.
/BAH
John Francis
Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> Except the switches and lights, and the ICs to drive them, would
>> probably cost as much as the rest of the PC.
>
>It shouldn't be that bad. After all, most keyboards already have
>lights for num lock, caps lock, and scroll lock, so four extra lights
>shouldn't be too difficult.
I'm pretty sure I have, at some time in the distant past, used a
keyboard with four extra lights incorporated.
It may have been an old Atari (1300XL?, 520ST?), a Gateway keyboard,
or possibly a DECStation; I don't think is was on a Unix workstation.
Jan van den Broek
jo...@panix.com (John Francis) schrieb:
[Schnipp]
>I'm pretty sure I have, at some time in the distant past, used a
>keyboard with four extra lights incorporated.
>
>It may have been an old Atari (1300XL?, 520ST?), a Gateway keyboard,
^^^^^
Not this one, the only light was for the floppy-drive.
>or possibly a DECStation; I don't think is was on a Unix workstation.
>
--
__________________________________________________________________________
Jan van den Broek
balg...@xs4all.nl
Der fabelhafte Tony und sein elektronischer Schnell-Imbiss
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Powell
Dave Garland <dave.g...@wizinfo.com> in alt.folklore.computers
wrote:
>Quadibloc wrote:
>
>> And many keyboards have lots of extra
>> buttons for launching applications or playing back sound files and the
>> like. Switches would be no worse. The main problem would be assigning
>> scan codes and command bytes to it; however, since this would be a
>> unique and exotic feature, and many keyboards use exotic codes now
>> that aren't standardized for their extra features, it shouldn't be
>> that difficult to work something out.
>
>Many of those keyboards let you reprogram the nonstandard keys. But,
>we're talking about more switches than that, aren't we? And there's
>still the lights.. LEDs aren't expensive but getting them connected
>might be.
>
Not that expensive, I paid about 20 quid for ISA cards with two 8255
24 bit ttl I/O chips ~20 years ago. Some leds, switches, piece of
0.1" drilled prototype board, connectors and ribbon from the junk-box,
build it in an afternoon.
>Sites like hackaday are always running projects that use arduino
>controllers. If one knew what one was doing (that lets me out) I
>suspect you could make a USB- or serial-connected device with all the
>switches and lights one could possibly want.
>
Regards,
David P.
David Powell
<4f6d0cba-0e6d-46e5...@d2g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> in alt.folklore.computers wrote:
>On Jun 22, 3:44 pm, Peter Flass <Peter_Fl...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
>> jmfbahciv wrote:
>> > Quadibloc wrote:
>
>> >> I've advocated adding a row of six switches and a row of four lights
>> >> to the PC keyboard. This would make the PC (fully) compatible with
>> >> (older versions of) the FORTRAN language (by allowing the sense light
>> >> and sense switch statements to work properly) and it would help to
>> >> bring back the sense of fun promised by the lights and switches of
>> >> classic front panels.
>
>> > That's a good idea.
>
>> Except the switches and lights, and the ICs to drive them, would
>> probably cost as much as the rest of the PC.
>
>It shouldn't be that bad. After all, most keyboards already have
>lights for num lock, caps lock, and scroll lock, so four extra lights
>shouldn't be too difficult. And many keyboards have lots of extra
>buttons for launching applications or playing back sound files and the
>like. Switches would be no worse.>The main problem would be assigning
>scan codes and command bytes to it; however, since this would be a
>unique and exotic feature, and many keyboards use exotic codes now
>that aren't standardized for their extra features, it shouldn't be
>that difficult to work something out.
No need, escape codes already exist, you've just reinvented the
programmable keys and leds on a VT100.
>
>On the other hand, anything approaching a full front panel would cost
>about as much as a PC.
>
Regards,
David P.
John Francis
David Powell <ddotp...@icuknet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>No need, escape codes already exist, you've just reinvented the
>programmable keys and leds on a VT100.
I *knew* I'd seen a keyboard with programmable lights before ...
Christian Brunschen
I once wrote a small program that would set the 4 LEDs on a
vt100-compatible keyboard to a desired state, or which could be left
running and would animate the LEDs in a bredefined or random pattern.
It turned out that I could actually run this program in the background
concurrently with the 'normal' parts of my terminal session, and (probably
because the amount of data for each LED-setting escape sequence was so
small) the two data streams would not interfere with one another.
It was slightly amusing.
Best wishes,
// Christian Brunschen
Richard
jo...@panix.com (John Francis) spake the secret code
<h25ng9$m2t$1...@reader1.panix.com> thusly:
>I *knew* I'd seen a keyboard with programmable lights before ...
Other keyboards with this trait:
- Whizzard terminal by Megatek has a keyboard with 3 dials, a joystick
and a row of membrane function keys. Each membrane key has an LED
mounted underneath it and they can be illuminated independently.
- Apricot PC. This PC was MS-DOS (but not 100% BIOS) compatible. It
had a row of membrane function keys along the top of the keyboard.
Each key had an LED mounted near the bottom corner of the key that
could be illuminated independently. A small LCD screen in the
keyboard could be programmed with the labels for the keys. The
intention was to light the LED to indicate to the user which keys
were in use by the application.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
Mike Ross
>Quadibloc wrote:
>> I've advocated adding a row of six switches and a row of four lights
>> to the PC keyboard. This would make the PC (fully) compatible with
>> (older versions of) the FORTRAN language (by allowing the sense light
>> and sense switch statements to work properly) and it would help to
>> bring back the sense of fun promised by the lights and switches of
>> classic front panels.
>
>For sure, flashing lights were part of the attraction. And the KL was
>the first of the evil machines replacing nice lights and switches with
>computers.
>
>Anybody got a good picture of a KI-10 with switches and lights?
I have heard from a little bird that TWO complete KI10 systems have recently
surfaced in Europe. Can't say any more just now but hopefully some decent
pictures will emerge soon.
Mike
jmfbahciv
the foreground running SYSDPY. some day I want to scan that into
bits. The switches are probably not identifiable.
/BAH
Philipp Hachtmann
> I have heard from a little bird that TWO complete KI10 systems have recently
> surfaced in Europe. Can't say any more just now but hopefully some decent
> pictures will emerge soon.
Hm, I was there today. Should I take some pics? It's only a *very* basic
set of cabinets (4 or so) left... All that our (original DEC and
original for this machine) field service engineer claimed to form a
somewhat "complete" CPU+Memory. But there was way more... It was the
largest pdp10 installation in Europe...
Best wishes,
Philipp