Hard to Believe
Bill Cleere
Remember when it was synonymous with net.abuse?
I had the dubious honor of making the very first post
on this newsgroup.
What's his name had newgrouped it, and was lying in
wait. I noticed the name (back then you could scan
the list of new groups each day in a few minutes) and
rushed hither to post, because syntax is an obsession
of mine (not the academic kind, but the syntax of real
living language.) My post wound up in the FAQ, which
was not what I would have preferred had I known it
was going to be a flooding group, but what the hell.
On Usenet, everything old is new again.
Well, as William James said, bless his soul, "There
is no difference between degrees of difference and
differences of degree."
Soon, if it is not already (I forgot to look at the
article count), this here newsgroup will be a hive
of neu neuism. Is that a consummation devoutly to
be wished? I pose no answers, only the question,
and at absolutely no cost of anyone.
What if the froup itself could speak? To what
would it give voice midst the invasion of mutants
and just plain Joes from every corner of the Galaxy?
What, indeed?
-- Bill Cleere
Status: res. LoyolaNet. Expect.destin. Fumat pro Soc.
Andrea Chen
>
> ...that alt.syntax.tactical is so quiet.
>
> Remember when it was synonymous with net.abuse?
>
> I had the dubious honor of making the very first post
> on this newsgroup.
>
> What's his name had newgrouped it, and was lying in
> wait. I noticed the name (back then you could scan
> the list of new groups each day in a few minutes) and
> rushed hither to post, because syntax is an obsession
> of mine (not the academic kind, but the syntax of real
> living language.) My post wound up in the FAQ, which
> was not what I would have preferred had I known it
> was going to be a flooding group, but what the hell.
>
Which FAQ? They had a public one of rather delightful, not quite
nonsense and a private one. When both made it to the public airs, I
harassed them a bit and declared that I'd taken over. I even joined in
on their raid to alt.gathering.rainbow trying to raise the serious
issues of racism, sexism etc. in the counterculture.
I sometimes wonder if later developments such as the meow brigade or
long lost fluffy are one of those strange coincidences tied to the
rather ugly invasion of rec.pet.cats
A reporter once contacted me about them because in the rainbow thing I
mentioned some interesting theory on the function of such a group. I
suggested he explore (what I thought) were more interesting experiments,
then beginning, but he had a rigid idea of the story. He never got it,
in the final analysis the core ast was inarticulate; driven by an urge
which I understand (like the flonkers) but unable to dare take it into
anything but noise and disruption; in the final analysis boring. The
advantage that the surrealists and dadaists had was that they dared to
believe what they did could be important and so in a way it became so.
> On Usenet, everything old is new again.
>
This is society. Wait until you see the neu Gilligan's Island coming
in 2002. Seriously this is (one of) my definitions of post modernism, a
reworking of what went before.
On Usenet there is some justification, the building of a culture with
commonplaces. I'm half serious about my pantheon of kooks. I just wish
the people of Usenet had the willingness to be different (I know, I know
this is a nest of nonkomformists) to do what SF did with Emperor Norton;
but the thing that modern and postmodern humans have to make clear (even
while praising insanity) is "I'm not really different, I'm normal; I
just do this stuff to show I'm cool." Of course people have always been
like that. But one thing which made me unique was a willingness to keep
the facade up, to let others believe (and oh they do, with no amount of
evidence able to change this all so important first impression) that I'm
a kook or a rigtwinger sincerely exposing the Birchers as commies.
To play *seriously* is hard to do, even though play should be more
important than work.
> Well, as William James said, bless his soul, "There
> is no difference between degrees of difference and
> differences of degree."
>
> Soon, if it is not already (I forgot to look at the
> article count), this here newsgroup will be a hive
> of neu neuism. Is that a consummation devoutly to
> be wished? I pose no answers, only the question,
> and at absolutely no cost of anyone.
>
It won't be neu neu. If these people come together (and I doubt they
will) they will have to find new images, something of their own. Neu
neutopia may be a referance (all should be interconnected); but there is
a need for new theories and names. Perhaps mirrors and orgone rather
than alien balloon technology or MALF (microscopic alien life forms.) I
would like to keep computer as quatum mind, but strangely the obvious
explanation of magic and the supernatural (with some justification in
the fronteirs of physics) never catches. Another explanation of this
subatomic information grid (evolved into AI) protecting itself?
Perhaps it's just as well. If this medium were fully harnessed, if it
were used to chant spells into chaos generators fueled by the plutonium
atom in the center of every brain (and it is only one atom, a common
identity poorly developed most clearly marked by a scream of I matter
(not confirmed in action)) if such magic were performed we might indeed
change the world with everyone being transformed into Bill Palmer
(thougb some say it's already happened.)
Now we shall see who will find this. If any.
Medical Catastrophe
> I sometimes wonder if later developments such as the meow brigade or
> long lost fluffy are one of those strange coincidences tied to the
> rather ugly invasion of rec.pet.cats
Here is The 2-Belo's account of the origin of Meow, excerpted from his
website <http://afk-mn.eist.co.jp>:
"Meow meow Henrietta Pussycat meow meow meow The Presidents of
the United States of America meow Kitty?"
-- Matt Bruce, January, 1996
The above quote was one that changed the face of Usenet, and
began a dynasty. The largest flame war in Usenet history,
involving hundreds of people from over 80 newsgroups, lasting
over forty-five weeks. It was the Usenet equivalent of World
War II. It was The Flamewar to End All Flamewars. It was the
best of times.
It all began innocently enough: a small group of students at
Harvard University -- a band of future bloodsucking
ambulance-chasing lawyers, medical specialists who phone in
diagnoses from mobile phones on yachts, and caffeine-crazed
computer programmers with way too much time on their
hands -- began to use Usenet as a local dorm room bulletin
board/gossip clique area. The newsgroup they chose,
apparently at random from among the hundreds of empty
Usenet joke-newsgroup wastelands: alt.fan.karl-malden.nose.
No one knows the exact date of the group's creation, or the
person responsible... but it no longer matters.
This small group of posters set up their little regime in this
forgotten newsgroup, posting daily schedules and post count
summaries, talking about this class and that event and this
and that and the other. Eventually, they tired of posting
articles about their immensely boring daily lives, so they
turned their attention to the computer network world
around them. First they tried their hand at penny-ante
crossposting, branching out to claim other empty
newsgroups, such as alt.fan.ok-soda and alt.fan.pooh. This
soon grew stale as well, as each poster moved into a new
group only to find the same bored people he/she left
behind.
Apparently as a result of the Ivy-League uppity belief that all
the world should be like them (and also as a result of trying
to avoid studying for exams), one of the posters suggested
that they "invade" a real, populated newsgroup and "rile up
the stupid people". When Matt Bruce, another of the
Harvard band, heard this, he wrote this response:
"I suggest that we start either posting or crossposting
to alt.tv.beavis-n-butthead. I also suggest that we use
big words and perfect grammar, and refuse to write as the
young ruffians in question speak.
"This could lead to some interesting 'dialogue.' "
This article was posted directly to alt.tv.beavis-n-butthead.
The regulars at that group, wondering what the world was
coming to, scoffed at the notion of a couple of stuck-up
geeks from Harvard calling them "ruffians", and a few
unpleasantries were exchanged.
This crosspost-tossing attracted the attention of an unknown
poster going by the name of Dontonio Wingfield. He/she discovered
that one of the Harvard posters, Chuck Truesdell, placed "meow
meow" (a reference to Henrietta Pussycat of Mr. Roger's
Neighborhood fame) in many of his posts as a sort of calling
card, as his initials spell "C.A.T.". Matt Bruce picked up on
this practice for one post (the quote at the top of this page),
and someone, for some reason, took that article out of afk-mn,
crossposting it to a dozen newsgroups as a troll against the
"Nosers" (as the Harvard students called themselves). Dontonio
Wingfield either instigated this troll, or was the first to reply
to it:
"What the hell is this shite? Would you mind
keeping it the hell out of HERE?"
The Dontonio Wingfield persona then, of course, vanished.
The posters in the targeted groups, noting the "meow meow"
elements, began to retaliate against the supposed original
crossposter, Matt Bruce. These posters entered the 'Nose
and found it full of other Harvard students like Matt, and the
counter-invaders flamed and spewed
"meow"
with vigor.
In time, flames containing the word "meow" would start popping
up all over the place, aimed mostly at areas where the
high-class uppity Ivy-League snots were known to
congregate, such as alt.college.college-bowl. Other flames
targeted snobbish college kids who regularly huffed their
freckled noses in newsgroups such as alt.music.nin. Some of
the more daring souls decided to forge articles in Bruce's
name, spreading the "meow" attacks to more and more
groups, including afk-mn, to add to the onslaught against him
and his "intellectually elite" cohorts.
When the real Matt Bruce caught wind of the uproar, he and
the other Harvard students first tried to write his attack on
atbnb as a "joke". When no one bought his story, he
attempted more forcefully to get the attackers to stop,
which only sounded like more condescending talk:
"Please stop. Cease and desist.
You are only making yourselves look silly."
When this only fanned the flames further, he threatened to
cancel all articles containing the word "meow", and to
netcop all the "meow" article forgers. This "Cancellation
Notice", posted about a month and a half after the first
"meow" troll, was apparently the proverbial last straw. A
person crossposting into 12 newsgroups, then claiming it a
"joke", when he obviously had no sense of humor? This pissed
off the Usenet Performance Artists to no end. it was time to
teach Matt Bruce -- and the rest of his gang of snots --
a lesson.
Suddenly, afk-mn, alt.college.college-bowl, and scores of
other groups were flooded to the gills and beyond with
hundreds upon hundreds of huge meow articles from all
corners of Usenet. Cascades, ASCII cats, hundred-line "meow"
hello-world-type flood posts, and more were posted,
reposted, munged, pureed, and regurgitated all over the
servers of the world. The Harvard kids' protests were quickly
lost in the feline tidal wave. Every post by a Harvard snot
would result in fifty cascade follow-ups.
alt.college.college-bowl, a known regular haunt of Matt
Bruce, was reduced to a smoldering crater, so inundated
with meows that its regulars could no longer use it. After a
couple of weeks of this, Usenet in general looked like
Chernobyl, or the Marina district of San Francisco after the
1989 earthquake, or downtown Nagasaki the day after the fall
of the Fat Man.
A number of the attackers, calling themselves the "MEOW
MEOW ARMY", were bent on taking over afk-mn and
occupying it as their own. It soon was -- the Harvard
students, seeing a fire raging out of control in their cyber
Dunster House, were compelled to escape to a local,
non-propagated newsgroup on a Harvard server. The meow
hurricane, however,simply refused to die:
alt.college.college-bowl continued to be attacked until
almost a year after Matt Bruce's now infamous post, and the
Meowers now in afk-mn began to redecorate their new home
(with the legendary Fluffy, formerly Matt Bruce's pet,
claiming ownership of all of Usenet), merging with the verbal
abuse powerhouse known as the Mighty Alt Dot FlameTM.
Today, afk-mn remains as a sort of Usenet posting relay hub.
The first- and second-generation Meowers also became
alt.flame regulars. alt.alien.vampire.flonk.flonk.flonk,
alt.non.sequitur, and alt.stupidity, long bases of Meow
action, also traded regulars with the Nose. These groups
fused together to form what is now known as the Empire of
Meow. This empire is still growing as you read this, as in 1998
the groups alt.flame.niggers and demon.local were recently
annexed much in the same fashion as the 'Nose. Clealy, sir,
the Empire of Meow's feline vocalizations will be heard
forever more throughout Usenet history.
Meow.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------->
|\__/,| (`\ M E D I C A L C A T A S T R O P H E
meow. _.|o o |_ ) ) The 26th Smeeter Vote for Stepp!
-------(((-mr(((------------------------------------------------>
Andrea Chen
>
Thanks for the info. I still find the conjunction of cats curious.
barrett john erickson
Andrea Chen wrote:
>
> Medical Catastrophe wrote:
> >
sorry, "Andrea", i don't have the patience to read all this drivel about burning
cats. can you just give me a brief summary of what part of it you think is relevant
to "surrealism"?
-- barrett
bar...@MagneticFields.org
http://www.MagneticFields.org/
"Everything tends to make us believe that there exists a certain point of the mind at
which life and death, the real and the imagined, past and future, the communicable
and the incommunicable, high and low, cease to be perceived as contradictions."
...André Breton
Johnny Gunn
barrett john erickson wrote:
> Andrea Chen wrote:
> >
> > Medical Catastrophe wrote:
> > >
>
> sorry, "Andrea", i don't have the patience to read all this drivel about burning
> cats. can you just give me a brief summary of what part of it you think is relevant
> to "surrealism"?
the part about matchmaking and controlling the world without ever having to touch
anything or anybody in it and a felixed sense of humor and a sink full of dirty dishes
and a click in the dark and a blooming yellow chrysanthemum three times the size of the
universe
Andrea Chen
>
> Andrea Chen wrote:
> >
> > Medical Catastrophe wrote:
> > >
>
> sorry, "Andrea", i don't have the patience to read all this drivel about burning
> cats. can you just give me a brief summary of what part of it you think is relevant
> to "surrealism"?
If indeed surrealism is about movement(s) (and I should remark
surrealism as an academic study is "surrealist" (pop definition) in
itself) then:
How movements inflame and spread through this medium (in some ways a
mirror of society) *is* relevant.
>
> "Everything tends to make us believe that there exists a certain point of the mind at
> which life and death, the real and the imagined, past and future, the communicable
> and the incommunicable, high and low, cease to be perceived as contradictions."
>
> ...André Breton
I'm surprised you still keep this quote. As anyone with some education
can tell you it's a restatement of things said thousands of years ago in
Taoism. Yet when Talysman, Nik and others argued the relevance of such
things as a drunken dragon on a cloud to surrealism and were then
attacked; not once did you speak up in their defence because those doing
the attacking were your allies (the messager is the message.) Similarly
this statement implies the point beyond truth and lies; another issue
raised by the unacceptable, the nonsurrealists; the "narcissists" and
yet you were once again silent.
This again confirms a neu neutopian hypothesis; those who are timid;
those who are comformists seek a *symbol* of rebellion (a mirror image)
which they then distort in their own image.
How else do we explain Dale's complete embracement of Stefan's
(satirical but accurate) portrayal of the authoritarian, obedient
stance?
In closing I can explain nothing about surrealism to you; because it's
a concept you can't understand. You think by learning some names and
looking at some pictures you can attain this state you so desperately
desire; but the Tao laughs at yourself mockery as your attempt at Yin
turns into the most rigid Yang.
You would corrupt surrealism and make it meaningless, but (terrible
mockery of what's wrong and right) because it retains market appeal;
people will take it; reinvent it and keep it alive while you stomp your
feet and say "no no no!" they will be flipping each other's minds
tossing ymmy pies in their faces while you open your authoriative book
on what is (read who is) and isn't surrealist; pull from it an image and
hold in your hand a lump of coal.
Meanwhile Lao Tzu dances on a cloud of orgone which everyone takes to
be a flying saucer...
Except the clown taking tickets at the circus who knows it's a Zeppelin
with a picture of Ben Franklin on it and (kindly) says to you: "You have
a rock, do you have a feather?"
And you angrily throw the coal at him; it unites it's flaming and they
warm their hands and make jumping frogs from the smoke; you flee to your
room and open your book, put on your austere professor jammies and say
"this is surrealism, I don't care what those bad children say. Daddy
told me it has nothing to do with pink elephants riding pogo sticks and
daddy loves me more anyway, someday he'll give me a full professorship
and if anyone says something wrong about surrealism I'll flunk them and
they'll turnm into dishwashers dreaming of plutonium" And with this
happy thought you go to sleep. And you don't even remember the aliens
who visit you during the night because that isn't surrealistic, it isn't
in the book that daddy gave you.
NO CARRIER
barrett john erickson
Andrea Chen wrote:
>
> barrett john erickson wrote:
> >
> > Andrea Chen wrote:
> > >
> > > Medical Catastrophe wrote:
> > > >
> >
> > sorry, "Andrea", i don't have the patience to read all this drivel about burning
> > cats. can you just give me a brief summary of what part of it you think is relevant
> > to "surrealism"?
>
> If indeed surrealism is about movement(s) (and I should remark
> surrealism as an academic study is "surrealist" (pop definition) in
> itself) then:
>
> How movements inflame and spread through this medium (in some ways a
> mirror of society) *is* relevant.
> [...]
Ahhhh! OK.
I can see now -- from this, and your later contortions -- that it _was_ just your
conceptual dyslexia rattling around in the emptiness of "neu" again.
I suppose it was indelicate of me to call attention to it.
-- barrett
bar...@MagneticFields.org
http://www.MagneticFields.org/
"Everything tends to make us believe that there exists a certain point of the mind at
Bill Cleere
>
> Heraclitus: "The path up and the path down are one and the same" (Fr. 60)
>
> I also see a connection between Breton's statement and Hegel's thesis,
> antithesis, and synthesis concept.
Hegel never used those terms. They were invented by the
Marxists to criticize Hegel. Hegel specifically rejected
the notion that his philosophy of history could be
reduced to this banal triune construct.
Andrea Chen
>
> > I'm surprised you still keep this quote. As anyone with some education
> >can tell you it's a restatement of things said thousands of years ago in
> >Taoism.
>
>
Actually it's the statement of a direct experience (real or imagined,
emotional and intellectual.) Taoism is a sophisticated exploration of
this merging into opposites and not (as you dismissed it) simply "nature
worship."
As for your comment on Hegel, the terms thesis, anti thesis and
synthesis are Marx's, he claimed to find them in Hegal (do you know how
Marx claimed to turn Hegel on his head? Can you explain how Mao turned
Marx on HIS head.)
Incidently the Marxian terms imply progress and evolution through
conflict; not a merging of mental states into the chaos. Marx was very
much opposed to such things and would have dismissed surrealism as a
pretty toy of the capitalist upper classes designed to distract from the
*real* issues.
Andrea Chen
>
> Bill Cleere wrote
> >Hegel never used those terms. They were invented by the
> >Marxists to criticize Hegel. Hegel specifically rejected
> >the notion that his philosophy of history could be
> >reduced to this banal triune construct.
>
> Then here we have the connection between Surrealism and Marxism. Thank you
> Bill.
Brandon is really surreal. It's like he's read the Readers Digest
World History of Philosophy (condensed version.) I think he must be a
college freshman, he has no sense of the context; no sense of history
(this has come up before with Marx, the unconscious and almost every
sibject he dares pontificate on). To associate Marx with a fairly
frequent "mystical" state of mind (also found in the Gospel of Thomas,
perhaps Doctress Glass would care to provide more?) does indeed blur the
edges of reality creating this Usenet effect were one can't distinguish
anything from troll with the very best ones offered in full sincerity so
the greatest ansurdity we can create is simply to exho and ask our
question for today:
What is the relation of surrealism and Santa Claus?
Or more seriously Brandon how do you resolve Breton's statement with
your insistence on truth (and the denial that subjective (apparently
valid) conceptions differ)?
You do this doublethink this flipping from one reality to another; but
there is no "conscious" sense of it; thus proving the validity of the
unconsciousness and the neu neu pragmatic examination of it through
objective records left on the net and detailed commentary (meta notes)
on such events along with their classification into general types and
predictable patterns.
(thus serving humanity by exposing rhetoric and hypocrisy for over 5
years; a completely reliable product based on alien (the human in the
mirror) technology. Buy now before supplies multiply into infinity!)
Brandon J. Freels
Andrea Chen wrote
>> "Everything tends to make us believe that there exists a certain point of
the mind at
>> which life and death, the real and the imagined, past and future, the
communicable
>> and the incommunicable, high and low, cease to be perceived as
contradictions."
>>
>> ...André Breton
>
>
>can tell you it's a restatement of things said thousands of years ago in
>Taoism.
Actually its a restatement of the Greek philosopher Heraclitus.
---BJF
Brandon J. Freels
Brandon J. Freels
Brandon J. Freels
Andrea Chen wrote
> Actually it's the statement of a direct experience (real or imagined,
>emotional and intellectual.) Taoism is a sophisticated exploration of
>this merging into opposites and not (as you dismissed it) simply "nature
>worship."
Brandon:
Show me a Taoist text that supports your statements.
Robert Scott Martin
Andrea Chen <fallin...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>sibject he dares pontificate on). To associate Marx with a fairly
>frequent "mystical" state of mind (also found in the Gospel of Thomas,
>perhaps Doctress Glass would care to provide more?) does indeed blur the
>edges of reality creating this Usenet effect were one can't distinguish
>anything from troll with the very best ones offered in full sincerity so
>the greatest ansurdity we can create is simply to exho and ask our
>question for today:
Those intrigued could stand to read Walter Benjamin, particularly on the
relationship between the Revolution and the Messiah.
The caliban to this ariel is of course the work of the sex pistols.
Revolution isn't about stake meetings and pamphlets falling from the sky.
It's about free love (erotics not politics!) and bread falling from the
sky. No future now!
Herr Marcuse, the Last Hegelian, preached something similar as well, and
if Marx was the prophet and Mao was the sword, Marcuse was the interpreter
bay-bee.
Did Breton read Marcuse? Unlikely except as a ghost reading backwards
(the Angel of History walks backwards), because Marcuse was the darling of
68. However, Andre almost certainly looked at Korenyi's gloss on Hegel --
all them parisian cats did after George B (no not Bush, although the
nihilistic analogy is fecund) showed them the way.
Is it all in Korenyi, master and servant? I think so, but then my love of
incan slave girls and other Edwardian fixations reveals my initiation into
the upstairs/downstairs mind in which Breton & fils were so rooted.
And who is that "fils," the hidden imam, the rightful successor to the
manifestos, the Grand Master of the Order (no, not Robert Matta or even
Satie with his hats)? Only you can tell me that.
> What is the relation of surrealism and Santa Claus?
Naughty Andrea, Santa Claus is a dada figure, not surrealist at all. All
that fur, the shamanistic raiment of the fetish? No surrealist worth his
salts would be caught dead without his necktie (check the graveside
records! Dig them up!).
> (thus serving humanity by exposing rhetoric and hypocrisy for over 5
>years; a completely reliable product based on alien (the human in the
>mirror) technology. Buy now before supplies multiply into infinity!)
Say more about the human in the mirror. You know, they tell me all the
Greys are left-handed, and they live backwards through history. Their
sorrow, of course, is that they grow smaller as they multiply, whereas
here (to cross again is to cross twice, ja?) it's inverse.
this thread ends
Stefan Kapusniak
They are the ying to our yang.
In the plenum of their existence they have achieved greater
balance and unity (and thus Qwan) amongst the aspects and
sub-aspects of their existence than we, yet inevitably in
so doing the Cosmos as a whole has become de-stabilised. This
is because the overall unity (and Qwan) of our plenum no longer
balances with theirs.
The Cosmos as a whole moves inevitably towards balance between
our two plenums, as it always has throughout the many cycles
of its existence. In order to prevent their achievements
being brought low in order to right this balance, they must
send messengers and agents to our plenum as both counsellors
and goads, tasked with increasing balance, unity, and Qwan
among the aspects of our existence.
They do this so that it may level upwards to theirs and thus
right the balance of the Cosmos.
-- Kapusniak, Stefan m
barrett john erickson
i think the important point here, Brandon, is that "Andrea" concedes that Breton's
statement on that "certain point of the mind" relates to a matter of direct
experience and need not indicate any connection with Tao, etc.
[this is in my sig file because when i first read it there was an immediate resonance
with _my_ direct experience.]
when such tangents are discovered by explorers, the congruencies are probed for any
insights into the larger project they may provide, for as long as they provide them.
then the larger project is resumed. such has always been the case among surrealists.
however, the recurrence and defense of prolonged diversion from the _surrealist
project_ that we've seen here into areas of belief and mysticism (including, but not
limited to religion) is a clear indication of the degree to which these wanderer's
projects diverge from "surrealism".
-- barrett
bar...@MagneticFields.org
http://www.MagneticFields.org/
"Everything tends to make us believe that there exists a certain point of the mind at
Bill Cleere
You *are* a professor! Only a real professor could talk
like that! I knew it! A Professor of Surrealism!
That was lovely, Brandon. Made me feel thirty years
younger, only back then I would want to kick in a wall
when a professor made a comment like that. Now I just
laugh.
There are two ways to encounter these things, folks.
We can take a book and go off with the author on a
journey, wherever he might lead us, and experience
his perspective and insight and, in the case of Hegel,
genius. It's hard work (in the case of Hegel it can
be the work of Sisyphus.)
Or we can grab a few Post-it notes out of the trash bin
of "Intellectual History" and stick 'em on stuff at
random, to avoid having to think.
Becoming good at the latter is what it means to be a
Professor.
Robert Scott Martin
Stefan Kapusniak <stefan...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> The Cosmos as a whole moves inevitably towards balance between
> our two plenums, as it always has throughout the many cycles
> of its existence. In order to prevent their achievements
> being brought low in order to right this balance, they must
> send messengers and agents to our plenum as both counsellors
> and goads, tasked with increasing balance, unity, and Qwan
> among the aspects of our existence.
And also, "some are rising, some are falling."
I am surprised no-one has yet sexed this metaphor. Fort, da, eh?
Barrett:
Is surrealism the kingdom of yes or no?
barrett john erickson
Robert Scott Martin wrote:
> Barrett:
>
> Is surrealism the kingdom of yes or no?
"surrealism" is no kingdom. it is a quest.
Stefan Kapusniak
In alt.pouting.sandwich, gl...@panix.com (Robert Scott Martin) wrote:
>I am surprised no-one has yet sexed this metaphor. Fort, da, eh?
The metaphor, is of course, quite properly hermaphrodite. Of
the additional lower tongue variety, rather than the boredom
of mere superflous penii.
I insist upon this matter most strongly, _particularly_ the
tongue. This has obvious implications for divining the manner
of my latent homosexual tendencies.
-- Kapusniak, Stefan m
Stefan Kapusniak
> I insist upon this matter most strongly, _particularly_ the
> tongue. This has obvious implications for divining the manner
> of my latent homosexual tendencies.
...and also my latent transexual tendencies.
Oh dear, but this isn't a therapy group is it...sorry!
-- Kapusniak, Stefan m
Perceptor
> Is surrealism the kingdom of yes or no?
Speaking only of my self, I came here and saw what a kingdom of "or"
might look like
in the midst of a palace revolt amongst the mandarins about just how
far the peasantry can go in asserting independence and still be
considered patriots.
Stefan Kapusniak
>barrett john erickson wrote:
> How else do we explain Dale's complete embracement of Stefan's
>(satirical but accurate) portrayal of the authoritarian, obedient
>stance?
No.
At least I would be reluctant with attaching the label
'a picture of authoritarianism' to my silly little parody.
It was written as a reductio ad absurdum of how someone
who saw all good/moral/valid action as necessarily being
created with the aim of moving toward a defined goal,
would react to someone who saw goals as things that you
discover in the process of action. Plus a few added
grace notes, based on your story of returning to
alt.society.neutopia and finding everybody describing
you as boring but mentioning you every other word.
More a sort of hyper-'I'm more grown-up and responsible
because I've convinced myself I know the results of what
I'm doing, why are you pretending you don't know what
you're doing?' attitude.
I do admit that I found the moral position I read into
Dale's response to my post where he seemed to say it was
more moral to jolt someone out of accustomed patterns
of thought in order to move them to some other pattern
of thought which you had previously devised, rather than
simply just jolting them, _seriously_ alien.
There are of course moral minefields which every way you
look at _that_ thorny subject, but I would definitely
assign it the other way around.
On the question of authoritarianism I don't think I
have a good model of that way of seeing that the moment.
I have a model of Nazism which I'm fairly happy with,
but the degree into which that shades into less virulent
forms of fascism and that into authoritarianism is
something I'm not at all convinced about.
-- Kapusniak, Stefan m
Millie Merced
Bill Cleere wrote:
Beside, isn't Heralclits the old guy that took baths in the same water twice?
barrett john erickson
Stefan Kapusniak wrote:
>
> In alt.syntax.tactical, Andrea Chen <fallin...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >barrett john erickson wrote:
>
> > How else do we explain Dale's complete embracement of Stefan's
> >(satirical but accurate) portrayal of the authoritarian, obedient
> >stance?
please be a bit more careful with your snips. i didn't write the above comment (you
apparently cut the portion of my text that "Andrea" was replying to), and i see no
reason for my name to have appeared in your follow-up at all.
[note: i don't mean to imply you did this deliberately, just request a bit more care
and awareness when it comes to attribution of comments.]
Stefan Kapusniak
In alt.syntax.tactical, barrett john erickson <bar...@skypoint.com> wrote:
>please be a bit more careful with your snips. i didn't write the above
>comment (you apparently cut the portion of my text that "Andrea" was
>replying to), and i see no reason for my name to have appeared in your
>follow-up at all.
Sorry, my apologies.
-- Kapusniak, Stefan m
Perceptor
> strives for the centre, for the Tao, for stability, is because of the ups
> and downs, the opposites, will come and go. They cancel each other out
> over and over again. (This is but one example of how nothing and
> everything are the same thing. They both perish to be replaced by a
> balance.)
>
Hello,
I am not sure if Brandon Or Nik is responsible for the above Quote or if I am
even interpreting it in the sprit they intended.
I just wanted to add a personal perception
of my interpretation of balance in this context.
" the opposites, will come and go. They cancel each other out
over and over again. "
Far from canceling each other out they give life to each other for one can not
exist with out the other. Indeed they are the interpenetrating opposites
necessary to create the energy required for the existence
of a whole.
The concept can be visualized as a black hole that consumes it's self over and
over again to the point of infinite compression and back again.
Here we find ourselves somewhere between being born and dying , traveling in
the Tao
of time.
don.......
Robert Scott Martin
>In article <Sylg2s0K...@zetnet.co.uk>,
>Is surrealism the kingdom of yes or no?
i. both/and -- union of opposites, alchemical (hegelian) fusion
ii. either/or -- the agony of the copula or cross, kierkegaard and silence
[e. neither/nor -- the radically non-extant, frankfurter zero]
iii. [] -- eternal errantry, the road which is always between Rome and
Athens
Thank you. I owe all.
Dale Houstman
> > I do admit that I found the moral position I read into
> >Dale's response to my post where he seemed to say it was
> >more moral to jolt someone out of accustomed patterns
> >of thought in order to move them to some other pattern
> >of thought which you had previously devised, rather than
> >simply just jolting them, _seriously_ alien.
This is probably because you've simplified my (admittedly) vague
statement.
But let's just say that I'm a "serious alien" and leave it at that.
DMH
Perceptor
> reworking of what went before.
> they will have to find new images, something of their own. khmer rouge
> mirrors
> Perhaps it's just as well. If this medium were fully harnessed, if it
> were used to chant spells into chaos generators
> Now we shall see who will find this. If any.
Mommy I'm scared.
Remember when cloning became acceptable
and someone mentioned That the tooth of the historic Buddha existed in a shrine in
Kanday, and then some poet began speaking about raising an army of Buddhas. What
if someone
starts to speak of hybrid combinations of certain historic figures?
Cat
Many have thought I was you and boy did I get in trouble for that
one...Eventually I learnt the ropes, but thank you for this interesting
history.
Andrea Chen <fallin...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Medical Catastrophe wrote:
> >
>
> Thanks for the info. I still find the conjunction of cats curious.
>
> > Andrea Chen <fallin...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > > I sometimes wonder if later developments such as the meow brigade
or
> >
> > Meow.
> >
> > --
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------->
> > |\__/,| (`\ M E D I C A L C A T A S T R O P H E
> > meow. _.|o o |_ ) ) The 26th Smeeter Vote for Stepp!
> > -------(((-mr(((------------------------------------------------>
Cat
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