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Re: .308 or 30-30 - which is most versatile in your opinion?
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Stormin Mormon
May 26, 2012, 8:26:33 PM5/26/12
to
Well, if we have to be civil. Sigh. I was so looking forward to a chance to
call you an impolite person. Oops, well, sorry, I just did.
The ballistics are similar. The advantage to 308 is that "real men" can
resupply with FMJ from dead UN troops. I read that some where. But, I
wouldn't know. I don't own a gun.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"H.I.T.man" <H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote in message
news:GvydnZkEav5K8FzS...@bresnan.com...
Preface: I own both a 30-30 and .308.
Criteria: 150-168 grain soft point rounds; 30-30 is iron sighted and
.308 has a scope. Either is to be used in various environs, terrain,
etc. on medium-sized to large animals which may prove dangerous to the
shooter's wellbeing.
Besides being civil, two requirements are sought for this conversation:
omit emotion and stick to facts.
In your opinion - let's *NOT* have a flame war, please - which would
you choose for use at 200 yards or less in varying areas of open fields
and wooded regions to hunt medium-sized game such as deer, antelope
and defensively against any type of bear. Please give reason(s) for
your stance.
Thanks much!
--
H.I.T.man
"We cannot but be astonished at the ease with which men resign themselves to
ignorance about what is most important for them to know; and we may be
certain
that they are determined to remain invincibly ignorant if they once come to
consider it as axiomatic that there are no absolute principles." - F.
Bastiat
call you an impolite person. Oops, well, sorry, I just did.
The ballistics are similar. The advantage to 308 is that "real men" can
resupply with FMJ from dead UN troops. I read that some where. But, I
wouldn't know. I don't own a gun.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"H.I.T.man" <H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote in message
news:GvydnZkEav5K8FzS...@bresnan.com...
Preface: I own both a 30-30 and .308.
Criteria: 150-168 grain soft point rounds; 30-30 is iron sighted and
.308 has a scope. Either is to be used in various environs, terrain,
etc. on medium-sized to large animals which may prove dangerous to the
shooter's wellbeing.
Besides being civil, two requirements are sought for this conversation:
omit emotion and stick to facts.
In your opinion - let's *NOT* have a flame war, please - which would
you choose for use at 200 yards or less in varying areas of open fields
and wooded regions to hunt medium-sized game such as deer, antelope
and defensively against any type of bear. Please give reason(s) for
your stance.
Thanks much!
--
H.I.T.man
"We cannot but be astonished at the ease with which men resign themselves to
ignorance about what is most important for them to know; and we may be
certain
that they are determined to remain invincibly ignorant if they once come to
consider it as axiomatic that there are no absolute principles." - F.
Bastiat
de...@dudu.org
May 26, 2012, 9:04:54 PM5/26/12
to
On Sat, 26 May 2012 18:57:11 -0500, "H.I.T.man"
<H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote:
>Preface: I own both a 30-30 and .308.
>
>Criteria: 150-168 grain soft point rounds; 30-30 is iron sighted and
>.308 has a scope. Either is to be used in various environs, terrain,
>etc. on medium-sized to large animals which may prove dangerous to the
>shooter's wellbeing.
>
>Besides being civil, two requirements are sought for this conversation:
>omit emotion and stick to facts.
>
>In your opinion - let's *NOT* have a flame war, please - which would
>you choose for use at 200 yards or less in varying areas of open fields
>and wooded regions to hunt medium-sized game such as deer, antelope
>and defensively against any type of bear. Please give reason(s) for
>your stance.
>
>Thanks much!
There is virtually no difference in the .308 and 30.06 for deer sized
<H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote:
>Preface: I own both a 30-30 and .308.
>
>Criteria: 150-168 grain soft point rounds; 30-30 is iron sighted and
>.308 has a scope. Either is to be used in various environs, terrain,
>etc. on medium-sized to large animals which may prove dangerous to the
>shooter's wellbeing.
>
>Besides being civil, two requirements are sought for this conversation:
>omit emotion and stick to facts.
>
>In your opinion - let's *NOT* have a flame war, please - which would
>you choose for use at 200 yards or less in varying areas of open fields
>and wooded regions to hunt medium-sized game such as deer, antelope
>and defensively against any type of bear. Please give reason(s) for
>your stance.
>
>Thanks much!
targets at 2-300 yards with bullet sizes up to 180 grains. Where the
30.06 surpasses the .308 is 200 and 220 grain bullets for larger game.
Trying to put the larger bullets in the shorter .308 you simply run
out of room and must sacrifice powder charge so you lose muzzel
energy. But the best all around performer in the 30 caliber is the
.165 grain boattail for typical big game ranges.up to about 300+ yards
and at that size and range the .308 can be loaded just as hot as the
30.06 can. If I were going for trophy bull elk or grizzly bears I
would go for the 30.06 with a 200 or 220 in it. For a survival gun
the .308 might be a little lighter because the action can be shorter.
The .308 is also nice because it's compatible with the 7.62mm so you
can have an assault rifle and a big game rifle in the same caliber.
rbowman
May 26, 2012, 10:27:29 PM5/26/12
to
Stormin Mormon wrote:
> The ballistics are similar. The advantage to 308 is that "real men" can
> resupply with FMJ from dead UN troops. I read that some where. But, I
> wouldn't know. I don't own a gun.
I'll politely recommend you study
> The ballistics are similar. The advantage to 308 is that "real men" can
> resupply with FMJ from dead UN troops. I read that some where. But, I
> wouldn't know. I don't own a gun.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_ballistics_table.htm
before saying the ballistics are similar. Less politely, I'll suggest if you
can't tell a .30-30 from a .30-06 perhaps you shouldn't jump in.
rbowman
May 26, 2012, 10:29:39 PM5/26/12
to
de...@dudu.org wrote:
> There is virtually no difference in the .308 and 30.06 for deer sized
> targets at 2-300 yards with bullet sizes up to 180 grains. Where the
> 30.06 surpasses the .308 is 200 and 220 grain bullets for larger game.
Congratulations! You've just won the Stormin Mormon Reading Comprehension
> There is virtually no difference in the .308 and 30.06 for deer sized
> targets at 2-300 yards with bullet sizes up to 180 grains. Where the
> 30.06 surpasses the .308 is 200 and 220 grain bullets for larger game.
Prize. Now shall we discuss the .30-30?
Message has been deleted
de...@dudu.org
May 26, 2012, 10:59:00 PM5/26/12
to
On Sat, 26 May 2012 20:29:39 -0600, rbowman <bow...@montana.com>
wrote:
Oops. I really should try a larger font sometime. Anyway, the .308
vs a 30-30 is a no brainer ain't it?
wrote:
vs a 30-30 is a no brainer ain't it?
Message has been deleted
Snag
May 26, 2012, 11:54:46 PM5/26/12
to
G. Morgan wrote:
> one only that would be it.
Don't load any of my rifles for me ... 7.62 x 39 is a Russian cartridge
fired in SKS and AK47 rifles . .308 is AKA 7.62 x 51NATO , and the good ol'
'06 is a 7.62 x 64 IIRC .
As far as the question of range , IME the 30-30 is good out to about
150-175 yards . Renmember , this is a flat nose slug with a horrible
ballistic coefficient , and it's only leaving at about 2200 FPS . On the
other hand , the .308 is often used for 1,000 yard competition , and it
leaves the muzzle at about 2800 FPS .
I'll let you make the choice . Me , I pick the '06 because I've got one ,
and plenty of ammo .
--
Snag
Learning keeps
you young !
> H.I.T.man wrote:
>
>> Preface: I own both a 30-30 and .308.
>>
>> Criteria: 150-168 grain soft point rounds; 30-30 is iron sighted and
>> .308 has a scope. Either is to be used in various environs, terrain,
>> etc. on medium-sized to large animals which may prove dangerous to
>> the shooter's wellbeing.
>>
>> Besides being civil, two requirements are sought for this
>> conversation: omit emotion and stick to facts.
>>
>> In your opinion - let's *NOT* have a flame war, please - which would
>> you choose for use at 200 yards or less in varying areas of open
>> fields and wooded regions to hunt medium-sized game such as deer,
>> antelope and defensively against any type of bear. Please give
>> reason(s) for your stance.
>>
>> Thanks much!
>
>
> .308's get to use mil-surp rounds (7.62 x 39), if I had to pick
>
>> Preface: I own both a 30-30 and .308.
>>
>> Criteria: 150-168 grain soft point rounds; 30-30 is iron sighted and
>> .308 has a scope. Either is to be used in various environs, terrain,
>> etc. on medium-sized to large animals which may prove dangerous to
>> the shooter's wellbeing.
>>
>> Besides being civil, two requirements are sought for this
>> conversation: omit emotion and stick to facts.
>>
>> In your opinion - let's *NOT* have a flame war, please - which would
>> you choose for use at 200 yards or less in varying areas of open
>> fields and wooded regions to hunt medium-sized game such as deer,
>> antelope and defensively against any type of bear. Please give
>> reason(s) for your stance.
>>
>> Thanks much!
>
>
> one only that would be it.
Don't load any of my rifles for me ... 7.62 x 39 is a Russian cartridge
fired in SKS and AK47 rifles . .308 is AKA 7.62 x 51NATO , and the good ol'
'06 is a 7.62 x 64 IIRC .
As far as the question of range , IME the 30-30 is good out to about
150-175 yards . Renmember , this is a flat nose slug with a horrible
ballistic coefficient , and it's only leaving at about 2200 FPS . On the
other hand , the .308 is often used for 1,000 yard competition , and it
leaves the muzzle at about 2800 FPS .
I'll let you make the choice . Me , I pick the '06 because I've got one ,
and plenty of ammo .
--
Snag
Learning keeps
you young !
rbowman
May 26, 2012, 11:59:38 PM5/26/12
to
de...@dudu.org wrote:
> Oops. I really should try a larger font sometime. Anyway, the .308
> vs a 30-30 is a no brainer ain't it?
>
The Hornady LEVERevolution loads have don'e quite a bit for the .30-30 both
> Oops. I really should try a larger font sometime. Anyway, the .308
> vs a 30-30 is a no brainer ain't it?
>
in muzzle velocity and BC. Under 200 yards a .308 isn't going to make a deer
any deader. H.I.T.man mentioned 'any type of bear'. For griz, more is better
and the .308 wins. He also mentions antelope. Maybe they aren't as shy where
he lives, but I'd want something that could reach out more than 200 yards.
Where I grew up, the .32 Special or .30-30 was THE deer rifle, but you were
usually dealing with distances less than 100 yards and the only bears were
of the black persuasion. Of course, back then the .308 was relatively new
and the .30-06 would have been the alternative. I remember one informal Boy
Scout event sponsored by the VFW where I guy held up .30-30 and .30-06
cartridges and explained which was the real man's round. Being a VFW member,
I assume the M1 had made a believer out of him.
All said and done, the .308 can do everything the .30-30 can do and more.
Like you say, no brainer unless there's some other compelling reason. Both
are very popular and widely available.
rbowman
May 27, 2012, 12:03:46 AM5/27/12
to
G. Morgan wrote:
> .308's get to use mil-surp rounds (7.62 x 39), if I had to pick
> one only that would be it.
7.62x51. There is some milsurp and Wolf/Tula/Bear are in the game but it
> .308's get to use mil-surp rounds (7.62 x 39), if I had to pick
> one only that would be it.
isn't as inexpensive as 7.62x39 or 7.62x54R.
CS
May 27, 2012, 12:35:54 AM5/27/12
to
"H.I.T.man" wrote in message
news:GvydnZkEav5K8FzS...@bresnan.com...
Preface: I own both a 30-30 and .308.
Criteria: 150-168 grain soft point rounds; 30-30 is iron sighted and
.308 has a scope. Either is to be used in various environs, terrain,
etc. on medium-sized to large animals which may prove dangerous to the
shooter's wellbeing.
Besides being civil, two requirements are sought for this conversation:
omit emotion and stick to facts.
In your opinion - let's *NOT* have a flame war, please - which would
you choose for use at 200 yards or less in varying areas of open fields
and wooded regions to hunt medium-sized game such as deer, antelope
and defensively against any type of bear. Please give reason(s) for
your stance.
Thanks much!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'd pick the 308 each and every time.
Never shot a 30-30, much less owned one, but even if it was a million times
more wonderful, the 308 spent a lot of time as a military round, and is
still very popular. Besides the surplus stuff, it's hard to go anywhere and
not find it.
CS
news:GvydnZkEav5K8FzS...@bresnan.com...
Preface: I own both a 30-30 and .308.
Criteria: 150-168 grain soft point rounds; 30-30 is iron sighted and
.308 has a scope. Either is to be used in various environs, terrain,
etc. on medium-sized to large animals which may prove dangerous to the
shooter's wellbeing.
Besides being civil, two requirements are sought for this conversation:
omit emotion and stick to facts.
In your opinion - let's *NOT* have a flame war, please - which would
you choose for use at 200 yards or less in varying areas of open fields
and wooded regions to hunt medium-sized game such as deer, antelope
and defensively against any type of bear. Please give reason(s) for
your stance.
Thanks much!
I'd pick the 308 each and every time.
Never shot a 30-30, much less owned one, but even if it was a million times
more wonderful, the 308 spent a lot of time as a military round, and is
still very popular. Besides the surplus stuff, it's hard to go anywhere and
not find it.
CS
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
bates2012
May 27, 2012, 12:51:15 AM5/27/12
to
On May 26, 6:57 pm, "H.I.T.man" <H.I.T....@debian.user.invalid.org>
wrote:
like both. Very much :o)
NB
wrote:
> Preface: I own both a 30-30 and .308.
>
> Criteria: 150-168 grain soft point rounds; 30-30 is iron sighted and
> .308 has a scope. Either is to be used in various environs, terrain,
> etc. on medium-sized to large animals which may prove dangerous to the
> shooter's wellbeing.
>
> Besides being civil, two requirements are sought for this conversation:
> omit emotion and stick to facts.
>
> In your opinion - let's *NOT* have a flame war, please - which would
> you choose for use at 200 yards or less in varying areas of open fields
> and wooded regions to hunt medium-sized game such as deer, antelope
> and defensively against any type of bear. Please give reason(s) for
> your stance.
>
> Thanks much!
>
>
> Criteria: 150-168 grain soft point rounds; 30-30 is iron sighted and
> .308 has a scope. Either is to be used in various environs, terrain,
> etc. on medium-sized to large animals which may prove dangerous to the
> shooter's wellbeing.
>
> Besides being civil, two requirements are sought for this conversation:
> omit emotion and stick to facts.
>
> In your opinion - let's *NOT* have a flame war, please - which would
> you choose for use at 200 yards or less in varying areas of open fields
> and wooded regions to hunt medium-sized game such as deer, antelope
> and defensively against any type of bear. Please give reason(s) for
> your stance.
>
> Thanks much!
>
> --
> H.I.T.man
> "We cannot but be astonished at the ease with which men resign themselves to
> ignorance about what is most important for them to know; and we may be certain
> that they are determined to remain invincibly ignorant if they once come to
> consider it as axiomatic that there are no absolute principles." - F. Bastiat
Most versatile is whichever one you happen to have in your hand. I
> H.I.T.man
> "We cannot but be astonished at the ease with which men resign themselves to
> ignorance about what is most important for them to know; and we may be certain
> that they are determined to remain invincibly ignorant if they once come to
> consider it as axiomatic that there are no absolute principles." - F. Bastiat
like both. Very much :o)
NB
book...@yahoo.com
May 27, 2012, 1:13:26 AM5/27/12
to
On Sat, 26 May 2012 22:54:46 -0500, "Snag" <snag...@comcast.net>
wrote:
If the contest was between the .308 and '06, there still might be
similar arguments that apply. Guns forum in Canada is about evenly
divided. Canada now imports M-14s from Norinco and sells them less
than $500, which is about $1,000 less than the going price in US.
I'm intrigued about the M-14 that shoots the .308 NATO round, because
even the Vietnam Era military version has proponents that prefer it
for accuracy and efficiency to the "Mattel" M-16. It's the last
"battle rifle" capable of heavy hitting out beyond 300 yds. According
to Wikipedia, in the Middle East wars it's being used as a sniper
rifle for its accuracy.
Although the US production for military has been discontinued for
decades, now it's having a come-back, evidently.
wrote:
similar arguments that apply. Guns forum in Canada is about evenly
divided. Canada now imports M-14s from Norinco and sells them less
than $500, which is about $1,000 less than the going price in US.
I'm intrigued about the M-14 that shoots the .308 NATO round, because
even the Vietnam Era military version has proponents that prefer it
for accuracy and efficiency to the "Mattel" M-16. It's the last
"battle rifle" capable of heavy hitting out beyond 300 yds. According
to Wikipedia, in the Middle East wars it's being used as a sniper
rifle for its accuracy.
Although the US production for military has been discontinued for
decades, now it's having a come-back, evidently.
rbowman
May 27, 2012, 2:24:45 AM5/27/12
to
G. Morgan wrote:
> I ordered this scope for the Mosin - what do you think?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/390417124898?
The fixed power may be a little more rugged than the adjustables. For me 2
1/2 X would be a little light for much over 100 yards. For the price it will
at least let you see how the scout mount works for you.
If you think the spam cans are cool, pick up some Yugo 7.62x39 in the 1240
round crate. I've also gotten 7.62x54R that really was in a Spam can. It had
a soldered on strip that you wind off like Spam does (or used to) instead of
the Bulgarian cans that come with the P38 on steroids openers.
> I ordered this scope for the Mosin - what do you think?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/390417124898?
The fixed power may be a little more rugged than the adjustables. For me 2
1/2 X would be a little light for much over 100 yards. For the price it will
at least let you see how the scout mount works for you.
If you think the spam cans are cool, pick up some Yugo 7.62x39 in the 1240
round crate. I've also gotten 7.62x54R that really was in a Spam can. It had
a soldered on strip that you wind off like Spam does (or used to) instead of
the Bulgarian cans that come with the P38 on steroids openers.
Winston_Smith
May 27, 2012, 2:38:28 AM5/27/12
to
>Besides being civil, two requirements are sought for this conversation:
>omit emotion and stick to facts.
>
>In your opinion - let's *NOT* have a flame war, please -
Damn, you are no fun. For what it's worth
>omit emotion and stick to facts.
>
>In your opinion - let's *NOT* have a flame war, please -
http://web.newsguy.com/anozira/anozira1/SiteTops/weapons/3030faq.htm
Gunner's The 3030 Rifle FAQ
Winston_Smith
May 27, 2012, 2:40:34 AM5/27/12
to
> Either is to be used in various environs, terrain,
>etc. on medium-sized to large animals which may prove dangerous to the
>shooter's wellbeing.
For larger animals or open terrain requiring a long shot, why not the
>etc. on medium-sized to large animals which may prove dangerous to the
>shooter's wellbeing.
30-06?
rbowman
May 27, 2012, 2:42:02 AM5/27/12
to
book...@yahoo.com wrote:
> If the contest was between the .308 and '06, there still might be
> similar arguments that apply. Guns forum in Canada is about evenly
> divided. Canada now imports M-14s from Norinco and sells them less
> than $500, which is about $1,000 less than the going price in US.
Thanks to Clinton the US imports everything from China but Norinco.
> If the contest was between the .308 and '06, there still might be
> similar arguments that apply. Guns forum in Canada is about evenly
> divided. Canada now imports M-14s from Norinco and sells them less
> than $500, which is about $1,000 less than the going price in US.
Actually, Clinton left a loophole for Chinese shotguns, but Bush closed that
one when Norinco was supposedly selling toys to Iran.
> I'm intrigued about the M-14 that shoots the .308 NATO round, because
> even the Vietnam Era military version has proponents that prefer it
> for accuracy and efficiency to the "Mattel" M-16.
to practically pry it from the Marine Corps' cold dead fingers. Not only
could it reach out and touch someone a lot better than the M16, but the M60
gun also used 7.62x51 so you only had to hump one flavor.
The real M14 is selective fire, so I doubt Canada is importing any of those.
book...@yahoo.com
May 27, 2012, 6:05:25 AM5/27/12
to
On Sun, 27 May 2012 00:42:02 -0600, rbowman <bow...@montana.com>
wrote:
They are saying the accuracy is affected too much in full automatic
fire anyway. I suppose another .308 should be tested against the M-14
for cost, because it looks like there are a number attracting
interest. The Les Baer Match is guaranteed to shoot 1/2" 5-shot
groups at 100 yds.
wrote:
fire anyway. I suppose another .308 should be tested against the M-14
for cost, because it looks like there are a number attracting
interest. The Les Baer Match is guaranteed to shoot 1/2" 5-shot
groups at 100 yds.
Stormin Mormon
May 27, 2012, 7:28:04 AM5/27/12
to
You can join me, in the "reading comprehension" sit in the corner, shut
face, and look stupid department. BTW, 308 is equivilant to 7.62 x 51, the
"russian short" is 7.62 x 39. The 39 is used in SKS, AK, and I think AT
rifles.
"G. Morgan" <seal...@osama-is-dead.net> wrote in message
news:3q43s792ekktbn3pf...@Osama-Is-Dead.net...
face, and look stupid department. BTW, 308 is equivilant to 7.62 x 51, the
"russian short" is 7.62 x 39. The 39 is used in SKS, AK, and I think AT
rifles.
"G. Morgan" <seal...@osama-is-dead.net> wrote in message
news:3q43s792ekktbn3pf...@Osama-Is-Dead.net...
Stormin Mormon
May 27, 2012, 7:29:49 AM5/27/12
to
The 7.62 x 51 and the .308 are the same cartridge size. But, the mil spec
ammo is often loaded hotter. Or, so I've read.
"Snag" <snag...@comcast.net>
wrote in message news:9Ahwr.12762$rd5....@newsfe02.iad...
>
> .308's get to use mil-surp rounds (7.62 x 39), if I had to pick
> one only that would be it.
Don't load any of my rifles for me ... 7.62 x 39 is a Russian cartridge
fired in SKS and AK47 rifles . .308 is AKA 7.62 x 51NATO , and the good ol'
'06 is a 7.62 x 64 IIRC .
ammo is often loaded hotter. Or, so I've read.
"Snag" <snag...@comcast.net>
wrote in message news:9Ahwr.12762$rd5....@newsfe02.iad...
>
> .308's get to use mil-surp rounds (7.62 x 39), if I had to pick
> one only that would be it.
Don't load any of my rifles for me ... 7.62 x 39 is a Russian cartridge
fired in SKS and AK47 rifles . .308 is AKA 7.62 x 51NATO , and the good ol'
'06 is a 7.62 x 64 IIRC .
de...@dudu.org
May 27, 2012, 8:50:14 AM5/27/12
to
On Sat, 26 May 2012 22:15:45 -0500, G. Morgan
<seal...@osama-is-dead.net> wrote:
>You are kidding about the font I hope. Fonts are not part of
>Usenet messages, unless some jackass posts in HTML.
You have control over font size in your nntp agent, don't you?
<seal...@osama-is-dead.net> wrote:
>Usenet messages, unless some jackass posts in HTML.
You have control over font size in your nntp agent, don't you?
Frank
May 27, 2012, 9:18:18 AM5/27/12
to
On 5/26/2012 7:57 PM, H.I.T.man wrote:
> Preface: I own both a 30-30 and .308.
>
> Criteria: 150-168 grain soft point rounds; 30-30 is iron sighted and
> .308 has a scope. Either is to be used in various environs, terrain,
> Preface: I own both a 30-30 and .308.
>
> Criteria: 150-168 grain soft point rounds; 30-30 is iron sighted and
> etc. on medium-sized to large animals which may prove dangerous to the
> shooter's wellbeing.
>
> shooter's wellbeing.
>
> Besides being civil, two requirements are sought for this conversation:
> omit emotion and stick to facts.
>
> omit emotion and stick to facts.
>
> In your opinion - let's *NOT* have a flame war, please - which would
> you choose for use at 200 yards or less in varying areas of open fields
> and wooded regions to hunt medium-sized game such as deer, antelope
> and defensively against any type of bear. Please give reason(s) for
> your stance.
>
> Thanks much!
>
Game wise, not a huge difference but .308 has edge as more ammo is
> you choose for use at 200 yards or less in varying areas of open fields
> and wooded regions to hunt medium-sized game such as deer, antelope
> and defensively against any type of bear. Please give reason(s) for
> your stance.
>
> Thanks much!
>
available and there are more gun types to handle it.
I understand most .30-.30 ammo is built for lever action with feed where
flat and soft point is required for tubular magazines.
I reload .308 and there are tons of available bullets and I've gone from
110 grains to 180 grains.
The mil .308 ammo apparently has heavier cases with less capacity and
must be reloaded lighter than sporting ammo.
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Gunner Asch
May 27, 2012, 12:44:07 PM5/27/12
to
On Sat, 26 May 2012 18:57:11 -0500, "H.I.T.man"
<H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote:
>Preface: I own both a 30-30 and .308.
>
>Criteria: 150-168 grain soft point rounds; 30-30 is iron sighted and
>.308 has a scope. Either is to be used in various environs, terrain,
>etc. on medium-sized to large animals which may prove dangerous to the
>shooter's wellbeing.
The 3030, for a handloader..can be a very..very interesting rifle. The
>Preface: I own both a 30-30 and .308.
>
>Criteria: 150-168 grain soft point rounds; 30-30 is iron sighted and
>.308 has a scope. Either is to be used in various environs, terrain,
>etc. on medium-sized to large animals which may prove dangerous to the
>shooter's wellbeing.
120-125gr spizters can be 1 MOA or less! bullets when fired in most
3030s. Just keep in mind the warnings about pointed bullets in Most
tubular magazines.
Use either a ballistic tip, or the wide High Shock type hollowpoints
You can get up to about 2500 FPS+ with the proper loadings. Which makes
it a 250 yrd gun.
>
>Besides being civil, two requirements are sought for this conversation:
>omit emotion and stick to facts.
>
>In your opinion - let's *NOT* have a flame war, please - which would
>you choose for use at 200 yards or less in varying areas of open fields
>and wooded regions to hunt medium-sized game such as deer, antelope
>and defensively against any type of bear. Please give reason(s) for
>your stance.
>
>Thanks much!
gunner
>Besides being civil, two requirements are sought for this conversation:
>omit emotion and stick to facts.
>
>In your opinion - let's *NOT* have a flame war, please - which would
>you choose for use at 200 yards or less in varying areas of open fields
>and wooded regions to hunt medium-sized game such as deer, antelope
>and defensively against any type of bear. Please give reason(s) for
>your stance.
>
>Thanks much!
--
"The danger to America is not Barack Obama but a citizenry
capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency.
It will be far easier to limit and undo the follies of an
Obama presidency than to restore the necessary common sense
and good judgment to a depraved electorate willing to have
such a man for their? president.. Blaming the prince of the
fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of
fools that made him their prince".
Gunner Asch
May 27, 2012, 12:47:02 PM5/27/12
to
On Sat, 26 May 2012 21:38:49 -0500, G. Morgan
<seal...@osama-is-dead.net> wrote:
>H.I.T.man wrote:
>
>>Preface: I own both a 30-30 and .308.
>>
>>Criteria: 150-168 grain soft point rounds; 30-30 is iron sighted and
>>.308 has a scope. Either is to be used in various environs, terrain,
>>etc. on medium-sized to large animals which may prove dangerous to the
>>shooter's wellbeing.
>>
<seal...@osama-is-dead.net> wrote:
>H.I.T.man wrote:
>
>>Preface: I own both a 30-30 and .308.
>>
>>Criteria: 150-168 grain soft point rounds; 30-30 is iron sighted and
>>.308 has a scope. Either is to be used in various environs, terrain,
>>etc. on medium-sized to large animals which may prove dangerous to the
>>shooter's wellbeing.
>>
>>Besides being civil, two requirements are sought for this conversation:
>>omit emotion and stick to facts.
>>
>>In your opinion - let's *NOT* have a flame war, please - which would
>>you choose for use at 200 yards or less in varying areas of open fields
>>and wooded regions to hunt medium-sized game such as deer, antelope
>>and defensively against any type of bear. Please give reason(s) for
>>your stance.
>>
>>Thanks much!
>
>
>>omit emotion and stick to facts.
>>
>>In your opinion - let's *NOT* have a flame war, please - which would
>>you choose for use at 200 yards or less in varying areas of open fields
>>and wooded regions to hunt medium-sized game such as deer, antelope
>>and defensively against any type of bear. Please give reason(s) for
>>your stance.
>>
>>Thanks much!
>
>
>.308's get to use mil-surp rounds (7.62 x 39), if I had to pick
>one only that would be it.
blink blink...care to try that again?
>one only that would be it.
Gunner Asch
May 27, 2012, 1:12:02 PM5/27/12
to
German 182gr (yellow tip)
But its fairly rare..The Bulgarian 182gr is also surprisingly accurate.
The Nagants were (mostly) rifled to stabilize the heavy bullets so
accuracy with them will be better than with the light bullets.
Also..bore diameter is rather important. "Standard" bore diameter is
.311
Ive owned MNs that ran from .308 to .314 depending on arsenel and year
of manufacture. Guns made in the very early 1940-43 period were often
rather crude and hurridly made.
Most of mine today....are 28/30s or M39s. And these Finns..are awesomely
accurate.
Every bit as accurate as the Swedish Mausers (if not more so) with the
good ammo.
Gunner
Gunner Asch
May 27, 2012, 1:14:52 PM5/27/12
to
surplus out there. Shrug
Ive had some left here at the homestead over the years..seems to have
"fallen off a truck", but not by anymeans..enough.
3030 can cost $10 at the end of hunting season at Wally World or K-mart
And of course..handloading either cartridge is easy and cheap.
The 3030 gets a thumbs up with lead bullets.
rbowman
May 27, 2012, 3:01:40 PM5/27/12
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Winston_Smith wrote:
> For larger animals or open terrain requiring a long shot, why not the
> 30-06?
Sure, especially if you already have one. The high power shooters seem to
> For larger animals or open terrain requiring a long shot, why not the
> 30-06?
think the .308 works better at longer ranges. The short action may or may
not be a factor. If someone had their heart set on a Ruger Gunsite, it's
.308. The Savage Scout and afaik the AR10 variants are also .308. The .30-06
is far from extinction but it isn't as popular as it was. Especially with
the younger guys I talk to the progression is .223, .308, .300 WinMag. If
they're after elk, the little better performance of the .30-06 over the .308
isn't a consideration when they can go to the WinMag.
rbowman
May 27, 2012, 3:15:37 PM5/27/12
to
book...@yahoo.com wrote:
> They are saying the accuracy is affected too much in full automatic
> fire anyway.
That was one of the original arguments for the M16. The magazine feed and
> They are saying the accuracy is affected too much in full automatic
> fire anyway.
gas system were nice improvements over the M1, but I'm not sure about the
selective fire option.
> I suppose another .308 should be tested against the M-14
> for cost, because it looks like there are a number attracting
> interest. The Les Baer Match is guaranteed to shoot 1/2" 5-shot
> groups at 100 yds.
expect it would do something well. You probably wouldn't want to hang a
NcStar on it, so figure another couple of grand for glass. That's way, way
outside my budget.
rbowman
May 27, 2012, 3:26:05 PM5/27/12
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Stormin Mormon wrote:
> The 7.62 x 51 and the .308 are the same cartridge size. But, the mil spec
> ammo is often loaded hotter. Or, so I've read.
Better go do some more reading...
> The 7.62 x 51 and the .308 are the same cartridge size. But, the mil spec
> ammo is often loaded hotter. Or, so I've read.
rbowman
May 27, 2012, 3:31:13 PM5/27/12
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Frank wrote:
> I understand most .30-.30 ammo is built for lever action with feed where
> flat and soft point is required for tubular magazines.
LEVERevolution changed that game, but you're right. Most .30-30 bullets have
> I understand most .30-.30 ammo is built for lever action with feed where
> flat and soft point is required for tubular magazines.
the BC of a carefully selected rock. A lot of bambis didn't notice the
technical distinction.
Frank
May 27, 2012, 3:47:43 PM5/27/12
to
On 5/27/2012 11:01 AM, H.I.T.man wrote:
> Anno Domini 2012-05-27, Frank is noted for saying:
> appreciated.
>
Thanks for the compliment. Usually, I get dissed ;)
> Anno Domini 2012-05-27, Frank is noted for saying:
>>
>> Game wise, not a huge difference but .308 has edge as more ammo is
>> available and there are more gun types to handle it.
>> I understand most .30-.30 ammo is built for lever action with feed where
>> flat and soft point is required for tubular magazines.
>>
>> I reload .308 and there are tons of available bullets and I've gone from
>> 110 grains to 180 grains.
>>
>> The mil .308 ammo apparently has heavier cases with less capacity and
>> must be reloaded lighter than sporting ammo.
>
> Frank, I know you rarely weigh in these days. Your experience is valued and
>> Game wise, not a huge difference but .308 has edge as more ammo is
>> available and there are more gun types to handle it.
>> I understand most .30-.30 ammo is built for lever action with feed where
>> flat and soft point is required for tubular magazines.
>>
>> I reload .308 and there are tons of available bullets and I've gone from
>> 110 grains to 180 grains.
>>
>> The mil .308 ammo apparently has heavier cases with less capacity and
>> must be reloaded lighter than sporting ammo.
>
> appreciated.
>
Thanks for the compliment. Usually, I get dissed ;)
rbowman
May 27, 2012, 5:01:01 PM5/27/12
to
Gunner Asch wrote:
> The Nagants were (mostly) rifled to stabilize the heavy bullets so
> accuracy with them will be better than with the light bullets.
I've been having pretty good luck with 150 gr '.303' bullets over 46 gr of
> The Nagants were (mostly) rifled to stabilize the heavy bullets so
> accuracy with them will be better than with the light bullets.
H4895, but I'm still experimenting. The heavy ball holds minute of deer just
fine but I've got to have something to play with.
rbowman
May 27, 2012, 5:51:33 PM5/27/12
to
H.I.T.man wrote:
> Most game are killed within 200 yards. Might surprise you then to learn
> that, although jumpy, antelope are taken in Wyoming by archers. Trick is
> to set up where they travel and use a blind if practicable.
That's a whole different discussion. If someone uses bowhunting techniques,
a .357 gets the job done.
> The position of it being a no brainer is in dispute in my viewpoint.
> Here's why:
> 1) 30-30 is heavy round and better for brush than .308
Okay, I'll play. A Federal 170 gr Nosler Partition .30-30 is heavier than a
Federal 180 gr Nosler Partition how? I think I mentioned I grew up in .32
Special country. Everybody 'knew' the .32 was bigger and better and would
plow through brush that would send the vastly inferior .30-30 into the next
county. Most of the rest of the country 'knew' just the oppopsite. If it
makes you feel better, you can probably duplicate the external ballistic of
any .30-30 cartridge in the .308 but I wouldn't recommend trying it the
other way.
> 2) as stated, most kills are within 200 yards, thus the 1000 yard shot a
> .308 can do is pointless
THe .308 works pretty well under 200 yards too. Let's say your .30-30 is
sighted in at 100 yards. What's your holdover when you see that buck at 200
yards? Flatter trajectory is better, imho.
> 3) 30-30 rounds are as available as .308, generally speaking, but less
> expensive
First, how much are you planning to shot? If a box of 20 a year gets you by,
is a few dollars more a factor? For a volume shooter, you can often find
good buys on .308 milsurp or selections from the Russian menagerie if you're
not fussy. Go to Midway's site and sort the search results for each from low
to high. You might be surprised.
> 4) at close range, even though more powerful is always better, both
> firearms are of little advantage against an angry griz, yet a lever
> action is easier to "pump another round in" than the multiple movements
> required for a bolt action (an Alaska forum I've read actually
> recommends a 12 gage shotgun loaded with slugs for griz defense)
That's the prevailing wisdom around here -- 12 gauge pump.
It's a cold rainy weekend, so it's an interesting discussion. I'll still go
with .308 as being more versatile, which was your question. It comes in a
wide range of loadings and is available in semi-automatic and bolt models in
various styles.
I sometimes get the urge to get a .30-30 lever action, but it's mostly
nostalgia for what I hunted with as a kid. For real nostalgia, it would be a
.32 Special, but that's rare these days.
> Most game are killed within 200 yards. Might surprise you then to learn
> that, although jumpy, antelope are taken in Wyoming by archers. Trick is
> to set up where they travel and use a blind if practicable.
That's a whole different discussion. If someone uses bowhunting techniques,
a .357 gets the job done.
> The position of it being a no brainer is in dispute in my viewpoint.
> Here's why:
> 1) 30-30 is heavy round and better for brush than .308
Okay, I'll play. A Federal 170 gr Nosler Partition .30-30 is heavier than a
Federal 180 gr Nosler Partition how? I think I mentioned I grew up in .32
Special country. Everybody 'knew' the .32 was bigger and better and would
plow through brush that would send the vastly inferior .30-30 into the next
county. Most of the rest of the country 'knew' just the oppopsite. If it
makes you feel better, you can probably duplicate the external ballistic of
any .30-30 cartridge in the .308 but I wouldn't recommend trying it the
other way.
> 2) as stated, most kills are within 200 yards, thus the 1000 yard shot a
> .308 can do is pointless
THe .308 works pretty well under 200 yards too. Let's say your .30-30 is
sighted in at 100 yards. What's your holdover when you see that buck at 200
yards? Flatter trajectory is better, imho.
> 3) 30-30 rounds are as available as .308, generally speaking, but less
> expensive
First, how much are you planning to shot? If a box of 20 a year gets you by,
is a few dollars more a factor? For a volume shooter, you can often find
good buys on .308 milsurp or selections from the Russian menagerie if you're
not fussy. Go to Midway's site and sort the search results for each from low
to high. You might be surprised.
> 4) at close range, even though more powerful is always better, both
> firearms are of little advantage against an angry griz, yet a lever
> action is easier to "pump another round in" than the multiple movements
> required for a bolt action (an Alaska forum I've read actually
> recommends a 12 gage shotgun loaded with slugs for griz defense)
That's the prevailing wisdom around here -- 12 gauge pump.
It's a cold rainy weekend, so it's an interesting discussion. I'll still go
with .308 as being more versatile, which was your question. It comes in a
wide range of loadings and is available in semi-automatic and bolt models in
various styles.
I sometimes get the urge to get a .30-30 lever action, but it's mostly
nostalgia for what I hunted with as a kid. For real nostalgia, it would be a
.32 Special, but that's rare these days.
Gunner Asch
May 27, 2012, 8:48:04 PM5/27/12
to
On Sun, 27 May 2012 09:23:48 -0500, "H.I.T.man"
<H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote:
>Anno Domini 2012-05-27, Winston_Smith is noted for saying:
Thanks. There are about a dozen out there that Ive written over the
years. Most were well received.
<H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote:
>Anno Domini 2012-05-27, Winston_Smith is noted for saying:
>> On Sat, 26 May 2012 18:57:11 -0500, "H.I.T.man"
>> <H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote:
>>
>>>Besides being civil, two requirements are sought for this conversation:
>>>omit emotion and stick to facts.
>>>
>>>In your opinion - let's *NOT* have a flame war, please -
>>
>> Damn, you are no fun. For what it's worth
>
> <g>
>> <H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote:
>>
>>>Besides being civil, two requirements are sought for this conversation:
>>>omit emotion and stick to facts.
>>>
>>>In your opinion - let's *NOT* have a flame war, please -
>>
>> Damn, you are no fun. For what it's worth
>
>
>> http://web.newsguy.com/anozira/anozira1/SiteTops/weapons/3030faq.htm
>> Gunner's The 3030 Rifle FAQ
>
>Very good article.
>> http://web.newsguy.com/anozira/anozira1/SiteTops/weapons/3030faq.htm
>> Gunner's The 3030 Rifle FAQ
>
Thanks. There are about a dozen out there that Ive written over the
years. Most were well received.
Winston_Smith
May 27, 2012, 9:28:37 PM5/27/12
to
On Sun, 27 May 2012 17:48:04 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>On Sun, 27 May 2012 09:23:48 -0500, "H.I.T.man"
><H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote:
>
>>Anno Domini 2012-05-27, Winston_Smith is noted for saying:
>>> On Sat, 26 May 2012 18:57:11 -0500, "H.I.T.man"
>>> <H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Besides being civil, two requirements are sought for this conversation:
>>>>omit emotion and stick to facts.
>>>>
>>>>In your opinion - let's *NOT* have a flame war, please -
>>>
>>> Damn, you are no fun. For what it's worth
>>
>> <g>
>>
>>> http://web.newsguy.com/anozira/anozira1/SiteTops/weapons/3030faq.htm
>>> Gunner's The 3030 Rifle FAQ
>>
>>Very good article.
>
>Thanks. There are about a dozen out there that Ive written over the
>years. Most were well received.
>
>Gunner
That's the only one I have. If you want me to host the others, post
them here and I'll put them up.
wrote:
>On Sun, 27 May 2012 09:23:48 -0500, "H.I.T.man"
><H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote:
>
>>Anno Domini 2012-05-27, Winston_Smith is noted for saying:
>>> On Sat, 26 May 2012 18:57:11 -0500, "H.I.T.man"
>>> <H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Besides being civil, two requirements are sought for this conversation:
>>>>omit emotion and stick to facts.
>>>>
>>>>In your opinion - let's *NOT* have a flame war, please -
>>>
>>> Damn, you are no fun. For what it's worth
>>
>> <g>
>>
>>> http://web.newsguy.com/anozira/anozira1/SiteTops/weapons/3030faq.htm
>>> Gunner's The 3030 Rifle FAQ
>>
>>Very good article.
>
>Thanks. There are about a dozen out there that Ive written over the
>years. Most were well received.
>
>Gunner
them here and I'll put them up.
misanthrope
May 27, 2012, 9:56:22 PM5/27/12
to
accurate. Last time we went to the range and had a 'Com block' themed
rifle day, there were 6 of us in a friendly target competition, and even
though I had to borrow a nagant in order to get into the game, I came in
second against 5 other experienced male shooters.
rbowman
May 27, 2012, 11:03:04 PM5/27/12
to
misanthrope wrote:
> I really enjoy firing off our nagants model M91/30. They are dead
> accurate.
I don't know if I'd go that far. Their accuracy is adequate for a MBR.
> I really enjoy firing off our nagants model M91/30. They are dead
> accurate.
misanthrope
May 27, 2012, 11:16:24 PM5/27/12
to
the barrel is so long and it's a sniper rifle.
rbowman
May 28, 2012, 2:01:26 AM5/28/12
to
misanthrope wrote:
> Well I have good experiences with them. I always figured it was because
> the barrel is so long and it's a sniper rifle.
Some 91/30's, the pick of the litter, were sniper rifles. The design was
> Well I have good experiences with them. I always figured it was because
> the barrel is so long and it's a sniper rifle.
intended to be cheap to manufacture and simple enough a Russian peasant
couldn't damage it. Make enough of them and some will be pretty good and
some will be pretty bad. You got lucky.
Gunner Asch
May 28, 2012, 3:04:52 AM5/28/12
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Gunner Asch
May 28, 2012, 3:23:34 AM5/28/12
to
<VBG>
They were not released from the arsenal unless they shot sub 1"
Now the Finn 91s...were good but nothing breath taking
http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/Finn-Mosin-Nagant-M91.asp
The 28/30s were absolutely marvelous...
http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/MosinNagant-M2830rifle-introduction.asp
But the 39s....superb!!
http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/finnish_mosin_nagantm39.asp
These are NOT the MNs you are familar with, available from Big 5 and
other places.
They are precison weapons designed to kill Russians efficently and allow
the shooter to ski or snowshoe to his next hide and kill more Russians
Piva!!
Gunner, who had the honor to once meet and talk with Simo Hayha and
found we may have been distantly related
http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/simohayha.asp
Alim Nassor
May 28, 2012, 3:34:49 AM5/28/12
to
On May 26, 9:38 pm, G. Morgan <sealte...@osama-is-dead.net> wrote:
> H.I.T.man wrote:
> >Preface: I own both a 30-30 and .308.
>
> >Criteria: 150-168 grain soft point rounds; 30-30 is iron sighted and
> >.308 has a scope. Either is to be used in various environs, terrain,
> >etc. on medium-sized to large animals which may prove dangerous to the
> >shooter's wellbeing.
>
> >Preface: I own both a 30-30 and .308.
>
> >Criteria: 150-168 grain soft point rounds; 30-30 is iron sighted and
> >.308 has a scope. Either is to be used in various environs, terrain,
> >etc. on medium-sized to large animals which may prove dangerous to the
> >shooter's wellbeing.
>
> >Besides being civil, two requirements are sought for this conversation:
> >omit emotion and stick to facts.
>
> >omit emotion and stick to facts.
>
> >In your opinion - let's *NOT* have a flame war, please - which would
> >you choose for use at 200 yards or less in varying areas of open fields
> >and wooded regions to hunt medium-sized game such as deer, antelope
> >and defensively against any type of bear. Please give reason(s) for
> >your stance.
>
> >Thanks much!
>
> >you choose for use at 200 yards or less in varying areas of open fields
> >and wooded regions to hunt medium-sized game such as deer, antelope
> >and defensively against any type of bear. Please give reason(s) for
> >your stance.
>
> >Thanks much!
>
> .308's get to use mil-surp rounds (7.62 x 39), if I had to pick
> one only that would be it.
Uh, you mean, 7.62x51, right?
> one only that would be it.
Alim Nassor
May 28, 2012, 3:35:09 AM5/28/12
to
On May 26, 10:54 pm, "Snag" <snag_...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Don't load any of my rifles for me ... 7.62 x 39 is a Russian cartridge
> fired in SKS and AK47 rifles . .308 is AKA 7.62 x 51NATO , and the good ol'
> '06 is a 7.62 x 64 IIRC .
> As far as the question of range , IME the 30-30 is good out to about
> 150-175 yards . Renmember , this is a flat nose slug with a horrible
> ballistic coefficient , and it's only leaving at about 2200 FPS . On the
> other hand , the .308 is often used for 1,000 yard competition , and it
> leaves the muzzle at about 2800 FPS .
> I'll let you make the choice . Me , I pick the '06 because I've got one ,
> and plenty of ammo .
> --
> Snag
> Learning keeps
> you young !
I
> fired in SKS and AK47 rifles . .308 is AKA 7.62 x 51NATO , and the good ol'
> '06 is a 7.62 x 64 IIRC .
> As far as the question of range , IME the 30-30 is good out to about
> 150-175 yards . Renmember , this is a flat nose slug with a horrible
> ballistic coefficient , and it's only leaving at about 2200 FPS . On the
> other hand , the .308 is often used for 1,000 yard competition , and it
> leaves the muzzle at about 2800 FPS .
> I'll let you make the choice . Me , I pick the '06 because I've got one ,
> and plenty of ammo .
> --
> Snag
> Learning keeps
> you young !
I
Alim Nassor
May 28, 2012, 3:44:18 AM5/28/12
to
weighing in.
Alim Nassor
May 28, 2012, 3:45:45 AM5/28/12
to
I bought my son a Savage 30-30 bolt action when he was a kid. I don't
remember the model number, maybe a 360? Anyhow, using Speer 135
grain spitzer bullets designed for Contenders and such, it was very
effective on deer and a very good 200 yard gun.
Alim Nassor
May 28, 2012, 3:36:01 AM5/28/12
to
loaded 135 spitzer bullets designed for the Contender in it. Was very
effective on deer.
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Snag
May 28, 2012, 11:46:42 AM5/28/12
to
Alim Nassor wrote:
>>
>>> .308's get to use mil-surp rounds (7.62 x 39), if I had to pick
>>> one only that would be it.
>>
>> Don't load any of my rifles for me ... 7.62 x 39 is a Russian
>> cartridge fired in SKS and AK47 rifles . .308 is AKA 7.62 x 51NATO ,
>> and the good ol' '06 is a 7.62 x 64 IIRC .
>> As far as the question of range , IME the 30-30 is good out to about
>> 150-175 yards . Renmember , this is a flat nose slug with a horrible
>> ballistic coefficient , and it's only leaving at about 2200 FPS . On
>> the other hand , the .308 is often used for 1,000 yard competition ,
>> and it leaves the muzzle at about 2800 FPS .
>> I'll let you make the choice . Me , I pick the '06 because I've got
>> one , and plenty of ammo .
>> --
>> Snag
>> Learning keeps
>> you young !
>
> I bought a bolt action Savage 30-30 for my son when he was 12. I
> loaded 135 spitzer bullets designed for the Contender in it. Was very
> effective on deer.
But that's not the "normal" configuration for the 30-30 . Usually
>>
>>> .308's get to use mil-surp rounds (7.62 x 39), if I had to pick
>>> one only that would be it.
>>
>> Don't load any of my rifles for me ... 7.62 x 39 is a Russian
>> cartridge fired in SKS and AK47 rifles . .308 is AKA 7.62 x 51NATO ,
>> and the good ol' '06 is a 7.62 x 64 IIRC .
>> As far as the question of range , IME the 30-30 is good out to about
>> 150-175 yards . Renmember , this is a flat nose slug with a horrible
>> ballistic coefficient , and it's only leaving at about 2200 FPS . On
>> the other hand , the .308 is often used for 1,000 yard competition ,
>> and it leaves the muzzle at about 2800 FPS .
>> I'll let you make the choice . Me , I pick the '06 because I've got
>> one , and plenty of ammo .
>> --
>> Snag
>> Learning keeps
>> you young !
>
> I bought a bolt action Savage 30-30 for my son when he was 12. I
> loaded 135 spitzer bullets designed for the Contender in it. Was very
> effective on deer.
chambered in a lever gun with tubular magazine . Actually it's surprising
that it's still around at all , it's one of very few cartridges that were
oroginally BP to have survived into the new century .
rbowman
May 28, 2012, 12:46:17 PM5/28/12
to
Gunner Asch wrote:
> These are NOT the MNs you are familar with, available from Big 5 and
> other places.
Correct. My MN was a $75 sale model at a local store. It does well for what
> These are NOT the MNs you are familar with, available from Big 5 and
> other places.
it is and is probably more representative of the available 91/30's or what
Ivan was issued. I haven't seen any 39's locally but some of the net prices
I've seen quoted are getting out of the cheap milsurp category.
de...@dudu.org
May 28, 2012, 12:47:53 PM5/28/12
to
On Sun, 27 May 2012 09:54:57 -0500, "H.I.T.man"
<H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote:
>Anno Domini 2012-05-27, rbowman is noted for saying:
>> de...@dudu.org wrote:
>>
>>> Oops. I really should try a larger font sometime. Anyway, the .308
>>> vs a 30-30 is a no brainer ain't it?
>>>
>>
>> The Hornady LEVERevolution loads have don'e quite a bit for the .30-30 both
>> in muzzle velocity and BC. Under 200 yards a .308 isn't going to make a deer
>> any deader. H.I.T.man mentioned 'any type of bear'. For griz, more is better
>> and the .308 wins. He also mentions antelope. Maybe they aren't as shy where
>> he lives, but I'd want something that could reach out more than 200 yards.
>know this but other readers may not realize, antelope are small, not
>much larger than long-legged dogs as the body size goes. Many hunters
>overshoot the buggers because the small size gives the illusion the beast
>is farther away, especially in open spaces where contrast & comparisons
>affect depth of field.
First of all, my apologies for misreading your original post. The
.308/30.06 is a common debate and discussion and somehow my brain
skipped right to that one. Actually, IMHO the .308/30-30 is a much
easier one to decide. Overshooting a target at a distance is one
reason, as is decided by the arc of your bullet path. One area the
30-30 simply can't compete. The .308 is much faster, better
ballistics, therefore has a much flatter trajectory.
>
>On the topic of contrasts & comparisons, I can regularly hit a 9" target
>with either my open sights 30-30 or scoped .308 at 350 yards.
A 9" target at 350 yards with open sighted 30-30 is a very impressive
shot. You will have no trouble putting meat on the table with
anything under discussion then.
>But, I
>don't have confidence I could hit a moving animal at that range.
Don't ever attempt a distance shot at a moving target if you don't
absolutely have to. Most people don't have the ability to properly
gauge lead at distances. It is a very, very difficult shot no matter
who you are. The risk of wounding an animal and it getting away are
too great. Wait until they stop and look at you.
> My
>comfort zone begins to collapse at 250 yards. Therefore, knowing my
>limitations and understanding the knock-down power of either round, I
>prefer to stick at 200 yards or less.
Me too. No matter what I'm shooting.
>
><...>
>> All said and done, the .308 can do everything the .30-30 can do and more.
>> Like you say, no brainer unless there's some other compelling reason. Both
>> are very popular and widely available.
it up to around 2500 fps. A 165 grain you can do about 2800+. If you
tried a 180 in the 30-30 you might get 2000fps. Plus, assuming you
are using the typical tube mag lever action you would be using
flatnose in the 30-30. So in the .308 you can have a faster, heavier
bullet with a pointed bullet. Much better brush buster.
>2) as stated, most kills are within 200 yards, thus the 1000 yard shot a
>.308 can do is pointless
Most people won't attempt a 1000 yard shot against a critter no matter
what. You asked which was the most versatile though.
>3) 30-30 rounds are as available as .308, generally speaking, but less
>expensive
Not necessarily. The biggest advantage to the .308 besides ballistics
over other rounds is that it is compatible with the 7.62 mm NATO which
are cheap and abundant.
>4) at close range, even though more powerful is always better, both
>firearms are of little advantage against an angry griz, yet a lever
>action is easier to "pump another round in" than the multiple movements
>required for a bolt action (an Alaska forum I've read actually
>recommends a 12 gage shotgun loaded with slugs for griz defense)
I would go with the 12 gauge 3" magnums with 00 buck. Much better
chance of hitting something vital. A .308 is perfectly capable of
dropping a grizzly if you know to shoot it in the neck center mass.
>
>Thanks,
Don't get me wrong, I like the 30-30, and for close range whitetail
deer it's a great round. Put lots of meat on the table for lots of
people for a hundred years. I love little lever action carbines like
the Winchester 94. I have two pre '64 models. Both famility
heirlooms. I will never part with them. One was my Dads, the other
my Great Uncle's. The one from my uncle is severely worn because he
was an avid back country fisherman and he carried his 30-30 as his
pack gun. I suppose if I had to hit the trail and had to carry
everything I took, the one rifle I would take would be my Winchester
94 simply because of it's size. Besides a great deer gun it can be
loaded light with hollowpoints and used on smaller game, and is also a
reasonable self defense rifle. The rifle bullet is vastly superior to
any handgun cartridge in the business and the 30-30 is more than
adequate for combat scenarios out to 100 yards. But again, you did
ask more versatile. Remember you can't use pointed bullets in tube
magazine lever guns. So you can get superior ballistics with the 165
grain pointed tip boattail bullet in the .308 and get nearly 3000fps
in it, giving you the capability to take anything in North America out
to any reasonable distance you may encounter. Again, ammunition is
cheap and plentiful partly to it's compatibility with the 7.62 nato.
.308/7.62 is available in anything in bolts, game rifle autoloaders,
and assault rifle autoloaders so you can do it all. So, again, the
30-30 is a great round and historically proven, but very limited in a
number of ways. IMHO the .308 completely "blows away" the competition
on this one.
Just my $.02
<H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote:
>Anno Domini 2012-05-27, rbowman is noted for saying:
>> de...@dudu.org wrote:
>>
>>> Oops. I really should try a larger font sometime. Anyway, the .308
>>> vs a 30-30 is a no brainer ain't it?
>>>
>>
>> The Hornady LEVERevolution loads have don'e quite a bit for the .30-30 both
>> in muzzle velocity and BC. Under 200 yards a .308 isn't going to make a deer
>> any deader. H.I.T.man mentioned 'any type of bear'. For griz, more is better
>> and the .308 wins. He also mentions antelope. Maybe they aren't as shy where
>> he lives, but I'd want something that could reach out more than 200 yards.
>
>Most game are killed within 200 yards. Might surprise you then to learn
>that, although jumpy, antelope are taken in Wyoming by archers. Trick is
>to set up where they travel and use a blind if practicable. You probably
>Most game are killed within 200 yards. Might surprise you then to learn
>that, although jumpy, antelope are taken in Wyoming by archers. Trick is
>know this but other readers may not realize, antelope are small, not
>much larger than long-legged dogs as the body size goes. Many hunters
>overshoot the buggers because the small size gives the illusion the beast
>is farther away, especially in open spaces where contrast & comparisons
>affect depth of field.
First of all, my apologies for misreading your original post. The
.308/30.06 is a common debate and discussion and somehow my brain
skipped right to that one. Actually, IMHO the .308/30-30 is a much
easier one to decide. Overshooting a target at a distance is one
reason, as is decided by the arc of your bullet path. One area the
30-30 simply can't compete. The .308 is much faster, better
ballistics, therefore has a much flatter trajectory.
>
>On the topic of contrasts & comparisons, I can regularly hit a 9" target
>with either my open sights 30-30 or scoped .308 at 350 yards.
A 9" target at 350 yards with open sighted 30-30 is a very impressive
shot. You will have no trouble putting meat on the table with
anything under discussion then.
>But, I
>don't have confidence I could hit a moving animal at that range.
Don't ever attempt a distance shot at a moving target if you don't
absolutely have to. Most people don't have the ability to properly
gauge lead at distances. It is a very, very difficult shot no matter
who you are. The risk of wounding an animal and it getting away are
too great. Wait until they stop and look at you.
> My
>comfort zone begins to collapse at 250 yards. Therefore, knowing my
>limitations and understanding the knock-down power of either round, I
>prefer to stick at 200 yards or less.
Me too. No matter what I'm shooting.
>
><...>
>> All said and done, the .308 can do everything the .30-30 can do and more.
>> Like you say, no brainer unless there's some other compelling reason. Both
>> are very popular and widely available.
>
>The position of it being a no brainer is in dispute in my viewpoint.
>Here's why:
>1) 30-30 is heavy round and better for brush than .308
I disagree. You can go up to 180 grains easily with the .308 and push
>The position of it being a no brainer is in dispute in my viewpoint.
>Here's why:
>1) 30-30 is heavy round and better for brush than .308
it up to around 2500 fps. A 165 grain you can do about 2800+. If you
tried a 180 in the 30-30 you might get 2000fps. Plus, assuming you
are using the typical tube mag lever action you would be using
flatnose in the 30-30. So in the .308 you can have a faster, heavier
bullet with a pointed bullet. Much better brush buster.
>2) as stated, most kills are within 200 yards, thus the 1000 yard shot a
>.308 can do is pointless
what. You asked which was the most versatile though.
>3) 30-30 rounds are as available as .308, generally speaking, but less
>expensive
over other rounds is that it is compatible with the 7.62 mm NATO which
are cheap and abundant.
>4) at close range, even though more powerful is always better, both
>firearms are of little advantage against an angry griz, yet a lever
>action is easier to "pump another round in" than the multiple movements
>required for a bolt action (an Alaska forum I've read actually
>recommends a 12 gage shotgun loaded with slugs for griz defense)
chance of hitting something vital. A .308 is perfectly capable of
dropping a grizzly if you know to shoot it in the neck center mass.
>
>Thanks,
Don't get me wrong, I like the 30-30, and for close range whitetail
deer it's a great round. Put lots of meat on the table for lots of
people for a hundred years. I love little lever action carbines like
the Winchester 94. I have two pre '64 models. Both famility
heirlooms. I will never part with them. One was my Dads, the other
my Great Uncle's. The one from my uncle is severely worn because he
was an avid back country fisherman and he carried his 30-30 as his
pack gun. I suppose if I had to hit the trail and had to carry
everything I took, the one rifle I would take would be my Winchester
94 simply because of it's size. Besides a great deer gun it can be
loaded light with hollowpoints and used on smaller game, and is also a
reasonable self defense rifle. The rifle bullet is vastly superior to
any handgun cartridge in the business and the 30-30 is more than
adequate for combat scenarios out to 100 yards. But again, you did
ask more versatile. Remember you can't use pointed bullets in tube
magazine lever guns. So you can get superior ballistics with the 165
grain pointed tip boattail bullet in the .308 and get nearly 3000fps
in it, giving you the capability to take anything in North America out
to any reasonable distance you may encounter. Again, ammunition is
cheap and plentiful partly to it's compatibility with the 7.62 nato.
.308/7.62 is available in anything in bolts, game rifle autoloaders,
and assault rifle autoloaders so you can do it all. So, again, the
30-30 is a great round and historically proven, but very limited in a
number of ways. IMHO the .308 completely "blows away" the competition
on this one.
Just my $.02
rbowman
May 28, 2012, 12:52:57 PM5/28/12
to
Alim Nassor wrote:
> I bought a bolt action Savage 30-30 for my son when he was 12. I
> loaded 135 spitzer bullets designed for the Contender in it. Was very
> effective on deer.
Until the LEVERevolution rounds, that was the drawback of the common .30-30
> I bought a bolt action Savage 30-30 for my son when he was 12. I
> loaded 135 spitzer bullets designed for the Contender in it. Was very
> effective on deer.
lever action. It would be interesting to know how many kabooms there
actually were using pointed bullets in a tubular magazine, but the vision of
a dramatic chain reaction discourages experimentation.
rbowman
May 28, 2012, 1:05:07 PM5/28/12
to
H.I.T.man wrote:
> I was parroting an old and mathematically unsustainable argument to see
> what you'd say. Which is heavier, a 150 gr 30-30 or 158 gr .308? Duh!
> However, there has been discussion about deflection of a round and
> there seems to be a prevailing opinion that a slower projectile
> (30-30) maintains better stability; I haven't seen any empirical
> support.
Growing up in upstate NY the argument over the best brush buster was an old
favorite. Probably the best candidate was the 12 gauge slug, which was
perfectly adequate in most circumstances. I'd read the articles in Field &
Stream about which was better for harvesting muleys at 300 yards, a .30-06
or .270, and wonder how the hell anybody could see 300 yards outside of town
unless you were in somebody's cow pasture.
Enough of the old prejudice remains that I wouldn't want to go brush hunting
with a .223.
> I was parroting an old and mathematically unsustainable argument to see
> what you'd say. Which is heavier, a 150 gr 30-30 or 158 gr .308? Duh!
> However, there has been discussion about deflection of a round and
> there seems to be a prevailing opinion that a slower projectile
> (30-30) maintains better stability; I haven't seen any empirical
> support.
Growing up in upstate NY the argument over the best brush buster was an old
favorite. Probably the best candidate was the 12 gauge slug, which was
perfectly adequate in most circumstances. I'd read the articles in Field &
Stream about which was better for harvesting muleys at 300 yards, a .30-06
or .270, and wonder how the hell anybody could see 300 yards outside of town
unless you were in somebody's cow pasture.
Enough of the old prejudice remains that I wouldn't want to go brush hunting
with a .223.
rbowman
May 28, 2012, 1:18:49 PM5/28/12
to
G. Morgan wrote:
> Hitting paper easy @ 100
> yards after a few corrections.
Hitting paper easy @ 100/200 yards. Hitting little red crosshair not so
easy. On a really good day with handloads I can get 2 MOA. Perfectly
adequate, as I said.
otoh, 2 MOA with the Savage .223 means I'm not having a good day. I have a
lot of those and it's not getting better with age.
> Hitting paper easy @ 100
> yards after a few corrections.
Hitting paper easy @ 100/200 yards. Hitting little red crosshair not so
easy. On a really good day with handloads I can get 2 MOA. Perfectly
adequate, as I said.
otoh, 2 MOA with the Savage .223 means I'm not having a good day. I have a
lot of those and it's not getting better with age.
Message has been deleted
Gunner Asch
May 28, 2012, 3:02:37 PM5/28/12
to
On Mon, 28 May 2012 10:18:52 -0500, "H.I.T.man"
>Was hoping you'd give a good refutation; you did.
>the .308 is best, as compared to the 30-30, for antelope since they
>tend to be remote. I was making the point most all game is taken within
>200 yards - well within range of the 30-30 - and used the fact archers
>harvest antelope as evidence one can get in very to the critters. Thus,
>since most game is gotten within 600', the need to "reach out and touch
>someone" at a 3000' argument is moot.
Actually..not moot in the slightest. Remember..those you are reaching
out and touching..can shoot back if you dont outrange or outshoot them.
And they may be good shots. Something to ponder long and hard about.
>
>>> The position of it being a no brainer is in dispute in my viewpoint.
>>> Here's why:
>>> 1) 30-30 is heavy round and better for brush than .308
>>
>> Okay, I'll play. A Federal 170 gr Nosler Partition .30-30 is heavier than a
>> Federal 180 gr Nosler Partition how? I think I mentioned I grew up in .32
>> Special country. Everybody 'knew' the .32 was bigger and better and would
>> plow through brush that would send the vastly inferior .30-30 into the next
>> county. Most of the rest of the country 'knew' just the oppopsite. If it
>> makes you feel better, you can probably duplicate the external ballistic of
>> any .30-30 cartridge in the .308 but I wouldn't recommend trying it the
>> other way.
>
>problem (see section titled "Brush-Bucking Calibers and Bullets" at
>http://www.chuckhawks.com/woods_rifles.htm )
Ayup. A blunt bullet WILL deflect less on twigs and brush than will a
spitzer. Fact of life.
>humidity 35% or less, but no wind.
>shots.
>appreciate the lower recoil, better sight picture maintained with faster
>lever action over a bolt, and smaller size, but to my inquiry, I have to
>agree the .308's power and flatter trajectory trump. Here in Wyoming,
>I use .308 since a single slow squeeze shot is likely the /only/ one
>will get; in a wooded area ... the 30-30 for reasons stated.
>
>Sadly, there's not an all around "perfect gun".
The 3030 has taken more game over the past 110 yrs, than any other. And
its killed its fair share of opponents as well. Keep in mind that most
prison guards for a half century carried 3030s, as well as armored car
crews etc etc.
While its not "hip slick and cool", it gets the job done quite nicely
>
>Thanks to all on-topic replies! I learned quite a bit.
Gunner
>Was hoping you'd give a good refutation; you did.
>
>> H.I.T.man wrote:
>>
>>> Most game are killed within 200 yards. Might surprise you then to learn
>>> that, although jumpy, antelope are taken in Wyoming by archers. Trick is
>>> to set up where they travel and use a blind if practicable.
>>
>> That's a whole different discussion. If someone uses bowhunting techniques,
>> a .357 gets the job done.
>
>I will argue this though, it's pertinent because it has been suggested
>> H.I.T.man wrote:
>>
>>> Most game are killed within 200 yards. Might surprise you then to learn
>>> that, although jumpy, antelope are taken in Wyoming by archers. Trick is
>>> to set up where they travel and use a blind if practicable.
>>
>> That's a whole different discussion. If someone uses bowhunting techniques,
>> a .357 gets the job done.
>
>the .308 is best, as compared to the 30-30, for antelope since they
>tend to be remote. I was making the point most all game is taken within
>200 yards - well within range of the 30-30 - and used the fact archers
>harvest antelope as evidence one can get in very to the critters. Thus,
>since most game is gotten within 600', the need to "reach out and touch
>someone" at a 3000' argument is moot.
Actually..not moot in the slightest. Remember..those you are reaching
out and touching..can shoot back if you dont outrange or outshoot them.
And they may be good shots. Something to ponder long and hard about.
>
>>> The position of it being a no brainer is in dispute in my viewpoint.
>>> Here's why:
>>> 1) 30-30 is heavy round and better for brush than .308
>>
>> Okay, I'll play. A Federal 170 gr Nosler Partition .30-30 is heavier than a
>> Federal 180 gr Nosler Partition how? I think I mentioned I grew up in .32
>> Special country. Everybody 'knew' the .32 was bigger and better and would
>> plow through brush that would send the vastly inferior .30-30 into the next
>> county. Most of the rest of the country 'knew' just the oppopsite. If it
>> makes you feel better, you can probably duplicate the external ballistic of
>> any .30-30 cartridge in the .308 but I wouldn't recommend trying it the
>> other way.
>
>I was parroting an old and mathematically unsustainable argument to see
>what you'd say. Which is heavier, a 150 gr 30-30 or 158 gr .308? Duh!
>However, there has been discussion about deflection of a round and
>there *seems* to be a prevailing opinion that a slower projectile
>what you'd say. Which is heavier, a 150 gr 30-30 or 158 gr .308? Duh!
>However, there has been discussion about deflection of a round and
>(30-30) maintains better stability; I haven't seen any empirical
>support. Chuck Hawks seems to favour RN & FP rounds against that
>problem (see section titled "Brush-Bucking Calibers and Bullets" at
>http://www.chuckhawks.com/woods_rifles.htm )
Ayup. A blunt bullet WILL deflect less on twigs and brush than will a
spitzer. Fact of life.
>
>>> 2) as stated, most kills are within 200 yards, thus the 1000 yard shot a
>>> .308 can do is pointless
>>
>> THe .308 works pretty well under 200 yards too. Let's say your .30-30 is
>> sighted in at 100 yards. What's your holdover when you see that buck at 200
>> yards? Flatter trajectory is better, imho.
>
>Point of aim is +1-1/2" for 30-30 and +1 for .308 at 40*-60* F and
>>> 2) as stated, most kills are within 200 yards, thus the 1000 yard shot a
>>> .308 can do is pointless
>>
>> THe .308 works pretty well under 200 yards too. Let's say your .30-30 is
>> sighted in at 100 yards. What's your holdover when you see that buck at 200
>> yards? Flatter trajectory is better, imho.
>
>humidity 35% or less, but no wind.
>
>>> 3) 30-30 rounds are as available as .308, generally speaking, but less
>>> expensive
>>
>> First, how much are you planning to shot? If a box of 20 a year gets you by,
>> is a few dollars more a factor? For a volume shooter, you can often find
>> good buys on .308 milsurp or selections from the Russian menagerie if you're
>> not fussy. Go to Midway's site and sort the search results for each from low
>> to high. You might be surprised.
>
>We do practice a bit, yet as for the actual kill - one, maybe two
>>> 3) 30-30 rounds are as available as .308, generally speaking, but less
>>> expensive
>>
>> First, how much are you planning to shot? If a box of 20 a year gets you by,
>> is a few dollars more a factor? For a volume shooter, you can often find
>> good buys on .308 milsurp or selections from the Russian menagerie if you're
>> not fussy. Go to Midway's site and sort the search results for each from low
>> to high. You might be surprised.
>
>shots.
>
>>> 4) at close range, even though more powerful is always better, both
>>> firearms are of little advantage against an angry griz, yet a lever
>>> action is easier to "pump another round in" than the multiple movements
>>> required for a bolt action (an Alaska forum I've read actually
>>> recommends a 12 gage shotgun loaded with slugs for griz defense)
>>
>> That's the prevailing wisdom around here -- 12 gauge pump.
>>
>> It's a cold rainy weekend, so it's an interesting discussion. I'll still go
>> with .308 as being more versatile, which was your question. It comes in a
>> wide range of loadings and is available in semi-automatic and bolt models in
>> various styles.
>>
>> I sometimes get the urge to get a .30-30 lever action, but it's mostly
>> nostalgia for what I hunted with as a kid. For real nostalgia, it would be a
>> .32 Special, but that's rare these days.
>
>I'd have to admit nostalgia plays a role, too. I like my 336CS and
>>> 4) at close range, even though more powerful is always better, both
>>> firearms are of little advantage against an angry griz, yet a lever
>>> action is easier to "pump another round in" than the multiple movements
>>> required for a bolt action (an Alaska forum I've read actually
>>> recommends a 12 gage shotgun loaded with slugs for griz defense)
>>
>> That's the prevailing wisdom around here -- 12 gauge pump.
>>
>> It's a cold rainy weekend, so it's an interesting discussion. I'll still go
>> with .308 as being more versatile, which was your question. It comes in a
>> wide range of loadings and is available in semi-automatic and bolt models in
>> various styles.
>>
>> I sometimes get the urge to get a .30-30 lever action, but it's mostly
>> nostalgia for what I hunted with as a kid. For real nostalgia, it would be a
>> .32 Special, but that's rare these days.
>
>appreciate the lower recoil, better sight picture maintained with faster
>lever action over a bolt, and smaller size, but to my inquiry, I have to
>agree the .308's power and flatter trajectory trump. Here in Wyoming,
>I use .308 since a single slow squeeze shot is likely the /only/ one
>will get; in a wooded area ... the 30-30 for reasons stated.
>
>Sadly, there's not an all around "perfect gun".
The 3030 has taken more game over the past 110 yrs, than any other. And
its killed its fair share of opponents as well. Keep in mind that most
prison guards for a half century carried 3030s, as well as armored car
crews etc etc.
While its not "hip slick and cool", it gets the job done quite nicely
>
>Thanks to all on-topic replies! I learned quite a bit.
Gunner
Gunner Asch
May 28, 2012, 3:04:37 PM5/28/12
to
about them enough that we have sucked others into the Finn Madness <G>
Price is going up. Glad I have a few kicking around.
Gunner
Gunner Asch
May 28, 2012, 3:19:22 PM5/28/12
to
On Mon, 28 May 2012 10:31:32 -0500, "H.I.T.man"
<H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote:
>Anno Domini 2012-05-28, Gunner Asch is noted for saying:
>teach me!
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?topic=195074.0
Some good posts on the 3030 there as well
<H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote:
>Anno Domini 2012-05-28, Gunner Asch is noted for saying:
>> On Sun, 27 May 2012 09:23:48 -0500, "H.I.T.man"
>> <H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote:
>>
>>>Anno Domini 2012-05-27, Winston_Smith is noted for saying:
>>>> On Sat, 26 May 2012 18:57:11 -0500, "H.I.T.man"
>>>> <H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Besides being civil, two requirements are sought for this conversation:
>>>>>omit emotion and stick to facts.
>>>>>
>>>>>In your opinion - let's *NOT* have a flame war, please -
>>>>
>>>> Damn, you are no fun. For what it's worth
>>>
>>> <g>
>>>
>>>> http://web.newsguy.com/anozira/anozira1/SiteTops/weapons/3030faq.htm
>>>> Gunner's The 3030 Rifle FAQ
>>>
>>>Very good article.
>>
>> Thanks. There are about a dozen out there that Ive written over the
>> years. Most were well received.
>
>Stopped reading at the <HR> ... should have read the credits. That'll
>> <H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote:
>>
>>>Anno Domini 2012-05-27, Winston_Smith is noted for saying:
>>>> On Sat, 26 May 2012 18:57:11 -0500, "H.I.T.man"
>>>> <H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Besides being civil, two requirements are sought for this conversation:
>>>>>omit emotion and stick to facts.
>>>>>
>>>>>In your opinion - let's *NOT* have a flame war, please -
>>>>
>>>> Damn, you are no fun. For what it's worth
>>>
>>> <g>
>>>
>>>> http://web.newsguy.com/anozira/anozira1/SiteTops/weapons/3030faq.htm
>>>> Gunner's The 3030 Rifle FAQ
>>>
>>>Very good article.
>>
>> Thanks. There are about a dozen out there that Ive written over the
>> years. Most were well received.
>
>teach me!
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?topic=195074.0
Some good posts on the 3030 there as well
Gunner Asch
May 28, 2012, 4:35:37 PM5/28/12
to
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=47&t=297716
http://www.militaryrifles.com/Turkey/Plevna/ThePlevnaDelay.html
Pay particular attention to the graphs at the last portion on Plunging
Fire and the max range of various cartridges
http://www.militaryrifles.com/Turkey/Plevna/ThePlevnaDelay.html
Pay particular attention to the graphs at the last portion on Plunging
Fire and the max range of various cartridges
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
rbowman
May 28, 2012, 10:59:57 PM5/28/12
to
G. Morgan wrote:
> Last time I was at one range they said metal targets were going to
> be installed soon. I may go check that out tomorrow, that would
> be nice to get the audible feedback.
One of the ranges had the yearly cleanup and maintenance day this month and
hung new gongs, which are old oxy or nitrogen tanks or similar. I've got to
get back out with something interesting before they get turned into lace.
I like spinners, especially the self-healing ones. If you try them stay away
from the Big Gong variety that's one red disk about 8" in diameter. It isn't
counterbalanced and doesn't even twitch for .223, 7.62x39 or 7.72x54R. I was
hoping to use it a 100/200 yards, but it's been repurposed to a pistol
target. Even a .46 or .357 won't spin it but at least the damn thing moves a
little.
THe steel spinners for centerfires tend to be pricey. I've got one I have to
repair after shooting the support frame. Go figure that I'd miss a 4" disk
and get a 3/8 rod.
> Last time I was at one range they said metal targets were going to
> be installed soon. I may go check that out tomorrow, that would
> be nice to get the audible feedback.
One of the ranges had the yearly cleanup and maintenance day this month and
hung new gongs, which are old oxy or nitrogen tanks or similar. I've got to
get back out with something interesting before they get turned into lace.
I like spinners, especially the self-healing ones. If you try them stay away
from the Big Gong variety that's one red disk about 8" in diameter. It isn't
counterbalanced and doesn't even twitch for .223, 7.62x39 or 7.72x54R. I was
hoping to use it a 100/200 yards, but it's been repurposed to a pistol
target. Even a .46 or .357 won't spin it but at least the damn thing moves a
little.
THe steel spinners for centerfires tend to be pricey. I've got one I have to
repair after shooting the support frame. Go figure that I'd miss a 4" disk
and get a 3/8 rod.
rbowman
May 28, 2012, 11:01:52 PM5/28/12
to
H.I.T.man wrote:
> Think you misunderstand ... unless those deer in WA are armed, it is moot.
It ain't the deer, it's the damned deer hunters :)
> Think you misunderstand ... unless those deer in WA are armed, it is moot.
It ain't the deer, it's the damned deer hunters :)
rbowman
May 28, 2012, 11:07:04 PM5/28/12
to
Gunner Asch wrote:
> Pay particular attention to the graphs at the last portion on Plunging
> Fire and the max range of various cartridges
There's a lot of that plunging fire on New Year's Eve in Phoenix...
> Pay particular attention to the graphs at the last portion on Plunging
> Fire and the max range of various cartridges
Message has been deleted
ne...@nowhere.org
May 29, 2012, 10:43:45 AM5/29/12
to
On Mon, 28 May 2012 22:28:17 -0500, "H.I.T.man"
<H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote:
>Anno Domini 2012-05-29, rbowman is noted for saying:
Are you in WY or WA?
Newb
<H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote:
>Anno Domini 2012-05-29, rbowman is noted for saying:
>> H.I.T.man wrote:
>>
>>> Think you misunderstand ... unless those deer in WA are armed, it is moot.
>>
>> It ain't the deer, it's the damned deer hunters :)
>
>OH! duh!
>>
>>> Think you misunderstand ... unless those deer in WA are armed, it is moot.
>>
>> It ain't the deer, it's the damned deer hunters :)
>
Are you in WY or WA?
Newb
misanthrope
May 29, 2012, 1:38:16 PM5/29/12
to
On 5/28/2012 2:04 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
> On Sun, 27 May 2012 20:56:22 -0500, misanthrope<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
...
>>
>> I really enjoy firing off our nagants model M91/30. They are dead
>> accurate. Last time we went to the range and had a 'Com block' themed
>> rifle day, there were 6 of us in a friendly target competition, and even
>> though I had to borrow a nagant in order to get into the game, I came in
>> second against 5 other experienced male shooters.
>
> Well done!!!!
>
> Gunner
>
Thank you sir! :)
> On Sun, 27 May 2012 20:56:22 -0500, misanthrope<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
...
>>
>> I really enjoy firing off our nagants model M91/30. They are dead
>> accurate. Last time we went to the range and had a 'Com block' themed
>> rifle day, there were 6 of us in a friendly target competition, and even
>> though I had to borrow a nagant in order to get into the game, I came in
>> second against 5 other experienced male shooters.
>
> Well done!!!!
>
> Gunner
>
Thank you sir! :)
thebr...@earthlink.net
May 29, 2012, 2:41:32 PM5/29/12
to
On Mon, 28 May 2012 20:59:57 -0600, rbowman <bow...@montana.com>
wrote:
I can't resist answering this question, Neither one has the one gun
that can do it all is a bolt action 30.06, why because you can kill
anything on the American continent with it and with the proper sabot
load shoot squirrels and rabbits without major damage, no other
caliber
can do the same thing with out major modifications and if it is
protection then there is thousand of rounds available of surplus
wrote:
I can't resist answering this question, Neither one has the one gun
that can do it all is a bolt action 30.06, why because you can kill
anything on the American continent with it and with the proper sabot
load shoot squirrels and rabbits without major damage, no other
caliber
can do the same thing with out major modifications and if it is
protection then there is thousand of rounds available of surplus
Gunner Asch
May 29, 2012, 3:04:59 PM5/29/12
to
308 is almost as hard
223/5.56 is getting there
Like finding surplus ammo for a Carcano. It can be found..but....shrug
Not saying there still arent quadrillions of rounds sitting in
government storeage..but getting ones hands on it has gotten tougher
over the past 40 yrs. Leftwingers have had a LOT do do with that....
Think current stocks will be surplused now that the festivities in the
Sandbox are winding down? Nope.
Gemini Jackson
May 29, 2012, 3:51:37 PM5/29/12
to
On Tue, 29 May 2012 12:04:59 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>Not saying there still arent quadrillions of rounds sitting in
>government storeage..but getting ones hands on it has gotten tougher
>over the past 40 yrs. Leftwingers have had a LOT do do with that....
Must be regional thing, that or it's all down here.
-gj
wrote:
>Not saying there still arent quadrillions of rounds sitting in
>government storeage..but getting ones hands on it has gotten tougher
>over the past 40 yrs. Leftwingers have had a LOT do do with that....
-gj
Gunner Asch
May 29, 2012, 7:32:20 PM5/29/12
to
Say...10 cents a round plus shipping?
Message has been deleted
rbowman
May 29, 2012, 11:38:29 PM5/29/12
to
thebr...@earthlink.net wrote:
> I can't resist answering this question, Neither one has the one gun
> that can do it all is a bolt action 30.06, why because you can kill
> anything on the American continent with it and with the proper sabot
> load shoot squirrels and rabbits without major damage, no other
> caliber
> can do the same thing with out major modifications
I was just thumbing through a magazine at the library tonight, Shooting
> I can't resist answering this question, Neither one has the one gun
> that can do it all is a bolt action 30.06, why because you can kill
> anything on the American continent with it and with the proper sabot
> load shoot squirrels and rabbits without major damage, no other
> caliber
> can do the same thing with out major modifications
Times or something, where the guy loaded everything from a 90 gr bullet on
up. He was shooting them out of a Sako A7 with the worst 100 yard group of
around 1.5" with a cast bullet.
> and if it is
> protection then there is thousand of rounds available of surplus
going to run .60 a round. You can get 200 rounds of Paki .308 for $72 from
Wideners. They throw in the original links for free.
rbowman
May 29, 2012, 11:41:33 PM5/29/12
to
H.I.T.man wrote:
> Thought I was answering Gunner at the time - he's in WA.
Gunner is two states south, in the land of fruits and nuts. The thought of a
Fresno gangbanger going deer hunting is not pleasant.
> Thought I was answering Gunner at the time - he's in WA.
Gunner is two states south, in the land of fruits and nuts. The thought of a
Fresno gangbanger going deer hunting is not pleasant.
Alim Nassor
May 30, 2012, 12:02:55 AM5/30/12
to
Alim Nassor
May 30, 2012, 12:02:06 AM5/30/12
to
On May 28, 10:46 am, "Snag" <snag_...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Alim Nassor wrote:
>
> >>> .308's get to use mil-surp rounds (7.62 x 39), if I had to pick
> >>> one only that would be it.
>
> >> Don't load any of my rifles for me ... 7.62 x 39 is a Russian
> >> cartridge fired in SKS and AK47 rifles . .308 is AKA 7.62 x 51NATO ,
> >> and the good ol' '06 is a 7.62 x 64 IIRC .
> >> As far as the question of range , IME the 30-30 is good out to about
> >> 150-175 yards . Renmember , this is a flat nose slug with a horrible
> >> ballistic coefficient , and it's only leaving at about 2200 FPS . On
> >> the other hand , the .308 is often used for 1,000 yard competition ,
> >> and it leaves the muzzle at about 2800 FPS .
> >> I'll let you make the choice . Me , I pick the '06 because I've got
> >> one , and plenty of ammo .
> >> --
> >> Snag
> >> Learning keeps
> >> you young !
> chambered in a lever gun with tubular magazine . Actually it's surprising
> that it's still around at all , it's one of very few cartridges that were
> oroginally BP to have survived into the new century .
> --
> Snag
> Learning keeps
> you young !
I know, I was just making conversation.
> Alim Nassor wrote:
>
> >>> .308's get to use mil-surp rounds (7.62 x 39), if I had to pick
> >>> one only that would be it.
>
> >> Don't load any of my rifles for me ... 7.62 x 39 is a Russian
> >> cartridge fired in SKS and AK47 rifles . .308 is AKA 7.62 x 51NATO ,
> >> and the good ol' '06 is a 7.62 x 64 IIRC .
> >> As far as the question of range , IME the 30-30 is good out to about
> >> 150-175 yards . Renmember , this is a flat nose slug with a horrible
> >> ballistic coefficient , and it's only leaving at about 2200 FPS . On
> >> the other hand , the .308 is often used for 1,000 yard competition ,
> >> and it leaves the muzzle at about 2800 FPS .
> >> I'll let you make the choice . Me , I pick the '06 because I've got
> >> one , and plenty of ammo .
> >> --
> >> Snag
> >> Learning keeps
> >> you young !
>
> > I bought a bolt action Savage 30-30 for my son when he was 12. I
> > loaded 135 spitzer bullets designed for the Contender in it. Was very
> > effective on deer.
>
> But that's not the "normal" configuration for the 30-30 . Usually
> > I bought a bolt action Savage 30-30 for my son when he was 12. I
> > loaded 135 spitzer bullets designed for the Contender in it. Was very
> > effective on deer.
>
> chambered in a lever gun with tubular magazine . Actually it's surprising
> that it's still around at all , it's one of very few cartridges that were
> oroginally BP to have survived into the new century .
> --
> Snag
> Learning keeps
> you young !
I know, I was just making conversation.
Gunner Asch
May 30, 2012, 12:50:53 AM5/30/12
to
On Tue, 29 May 2012 18:35:02 -0500, "H.I.T.man"
<H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote:
>Anno Domini 2012-05-29, ne...@nowhere.org is noted for saying:
>Thought I was answering Gunner at the time - he's in WA. Then, rbowman
>picked up the thread. Am I mistaken? I'm in WY.
Gunner lives in California
<H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote:
>Anno Domini 2012-05-29, ne...@nowhere.org is noted for saying:
>picked up the thread. Am I mistaken? I'm in WY.
Gunner lives in California
rbowman
May 30, 2012, 12:56:00 AM5/30/12
to
Alim Nassor wrote:
> No guts, no glory.
No guts, no glory, and most of my OEM parts are still working.
> No guts, no glory.
No guts, no glory, and most of my OEM parts are still working.
Gunner Asch
May 30, 2012, 1:28:37 AM5/30/12
to
the years up in the mountains.
The best one was a couple cholos who decided to shoot a piglet. They
didnt realize that mommacita pig was in the manzanita. She
objected...strenuiously. Both lived to be flown out..but it wasnt
pretty..not pretty at all.
Never try to stop a big hog with a .243 and an SKS.
Shrug
Gunner Asch
May 30, 2012, 1:51:15 AM5/30/12
to
think Im about the 10th owner. Its been a problem child for as long as
Ive known about it. Something is jamming the action..and its a Pederson
gun......cringe....
Its a rimless 3030 called 30 Remington
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_model_14
Good photos
http://www.icollector.com/Remington-Model-12-C-22-S-L-LR-SN-637386_i8523301
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_5_50/ai_114283922/
"... One of Pedersen's less glowing claims to fame is that his designs
tended to be complicated--maybe excessively so. Ingenious absolutely,
but manufacture was sometimes difficult due to the complex interaction
of parts. The 14 is that way and while it is beautifully easy to take
apart for storage or cleaning--there is a single screw--woe be unto the
unwary guy who takes the bolt apart.
There are pieces in there that remain something of a mystery after more
than a little study. "
But the cool thing is the tubular magazine has a swirl pattern in it
that keeps spitzer bullet tips away from the primer of the round ahead
of it. Which is something the other makers should have done many many
years ago. Works great. (as long as the gun keeps working....mine is
frozen half closed. Shrug...Pederson...gotta..lov..er...deal with his
designs). Ive got a few others..and they tend to be sweet shooting
reliable rifles that are a dream to carry out in the field. This
one....grrrrrrr!!
On the other hand..Ive several Savage/Springfield 340 bolt action
3030s..and they will shoot any bullet, very reliably and well enough to
do the job. Shot quite a few coyotes with 125gr spitzers. Do a very nice
job.
I do..do..do regret selling the Savage 99 in 3030 a couple years ago.
Needed the money..and the guy made me an offer I simply couldnt refuse.
Sigh
Gunner Asch
May 30, 2012, 1:56:14 AM5/30/12
to
fulled the cases with Bullseye powder..knocked out enough to get the
165gr boattails seated and went to the range. His dads gun. Interesting
KABOOM. Kid lived, only lost a couple fingers and most of the vision in
his right eye. Only had put 3 in the rifle,and only one cooked off in
the magazine.
Though the action looked like a balloon..it didnt explode. Marlin lever
gun. Tough little guns. Suprised the shit out of everyone that it didnt
launch the bolt through his skull.
Kid was a perpetual smartass. This sorta took the wind out of his
sails..so to speak. Actually a nice grownup these days.
Alim Nassor
May 30, 2012, 3:15:45 AM5/30/12
to
Well, maybe that old bolt action Mossberg .410.
Alim Nassor
May 30, 2012, 3:17:02 AM5/30/12
to
On May 30, 12:56 am, Gunner Asch <gunnera...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 29 May 2012 21:02:55 -0700 (PDT), Alim Nassor
>
> On Tue, 29 May 2012 21:02:55 -0700 (PDT), Alim Nassor
>
Message has been deleted
Gunner Asch
May 30, 2012, 5:14:59 AM5/30/12
to
post and peeps on it and used it for wild boar at close range.
Kicked like a mule, but put down the hogs. I traded it and a 10/22 for
my first brand new .44 Super Redhawk.
And am still happy to have swapped it off.
Damned thing had a short comb and a short stock and it bloodied my nose
more than once.
Alim Nassor
May 30, 2012, 8:01:12 AM5/30/12
to
Blackhawk. All the way home from the Dallas Convention Center my son
and I kept exclaiming, "it's PURTY!" Has black pearl grips on it.
Looks like the worlds biggest pimp gun. LOL.
Message has been deleted
Gemini Jackson
May 30, 2012, 9:18:42 AM5/30/12
to
On Tue, 29 May 2012 16:32:20 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
make a call.
-gj
wrote:
>On Tue, 29 May 2012 15:51:37 -0400, Gemini Jackson
><geminij...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 29 May 2012 12:04:59 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Not saying there still arent quadrillions of rounds sitting in
>>>government storeage..but getting ones hands on it has gotten tougher
>>>over the past 40 yrs. Leftwingers have had a LOT do do with that....
>>
>>Must be regional thing, that or it's all down here.
>>-gj
>
>Ill take 2000 rds of 308/7.62x51
>
>Say...10 cents a round plus shipping?
>
>Gunner
That may or may not be a tall order, it would be for me. But I'll
>On Tue, 29 May 2012 15:51:37 -0400, Gemini Jackson
><geminij...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 29 May 2012 12:04:59 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Not saying there still arent quadrillions of rounds sitting in
>>>government storeage..but getting ones hands on it has gotten tougher
>>>over the past 40 yrs. Leftwingers have had a LOT do do with that....
>>
>>Must be regional thing, that or it's all down here.
>>-gj
>
>Ill take 2000 rds of 308/7.62x51
>
>Say...10 cents a round plus shipping?
>
>Gunner
make a call.
-gj
Message has been deleted
Gunner Asch
May 30, 2012, 9:55:29 AM5/30/12
to
On Wed, 30 May 2012 07:30:58 -0500, "H.I.T.man"
<H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote:
>Anno Domini 2012-05-30, Gunner Asch is noted for saying:
><...>
>
>I've got one of those old pump Marlin 12g model 17 (serial a1677),
>but heard it is known for putting the eye out or worse. True?
"Marlin suggests you do not fire any hammer Marlin shotguns anymore. All
hammer SG's nicknamed the Widowmakers because the bolt could blow back
into your face. There is a site out there...can't remember the name, but
people still do shoot them. Making sure the locking lug is in perfect
working condition is key for saftey! If I could find one in nice
condition I would snap it up in a second. To me the model 42's are one
sharp lookin hammer 12 ga!
Modern high velocity ammo is a no no! Federal makes some good stuff in
the low 1100 fps velocity!
Here's a good read for you!
http://marauder.homestead.com/files/Marlin98s.htm
<H.I....@debian.user.invalid.org> wrote:
>Anno Domini 2012-05-30, Gunner Asch is noted for saying:
><...>
>> Marlin 12ga bolt action. Course Id shortened it to just legal, put a
>> post and peeps on it and used it for wild boar at close range.
><...>
>> post and peeps on it and used it for wild boar at close range.
>
>I've got one of those old pump Marlin 12g model 17 (serial a1677),
>but heard it is known for putting the eye out or worse. True?
"Marlin suggests you do not fire any hammer Marlin shotguns anymore. All
hammer SG's nicknamed the Widowmakers because the bolt could blow back
into your face. There is a site out there...can't remember the name, but
people still do shoot them. Making sure the locking lug is in perfect
working condition is key for saftey! If I could find one in nice
condition I would snap it up in a second. To me the model 42's are one
sharp lookin hammer 12 ga!
Modern high velocity ammo is a no no! Federal makes some good stuff in
the low 1100 fps velocity!
Here's a good read for you!
http://marauder.homestead.com/files/Marlin98s.htm
Gunner Asch
May 30, 2012, 9:56:23 AM5/30/12
to
On Wed, 30 May 2012 09:18:42 -0400, Gemini Jackson
<geminij...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 29 May 2012 16:32:20 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 29 May 2012 15:51:37 -0400, Gemini Jackson
>><geminij...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 29 May 2012 12:04:59 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>Not saying there still arent quadrillions of rounds sitting in
>>>>government storeage..but getting ones hands on it has gotten tougher
>>>>over the past 40 yrs. Leftwingers have had a LOT do do with that....
>>>
>>>Must be regional thing, that or it's all down here.
>>>-gj
>>
>>Ill take 2000 rds of 308/7.62x51
>>
>>Say...10 cents a round plus shipping?
>>
>>Gunner
>
>That may or may not be a tall order, it would be for me. But I'll
>make a call.
>-gj
Id even take 1000 rds
>On Tue, 29 May 2012 16:32:20 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 29 May 2012 15:51:37 -0400, Gemini Jackson
>><geminij...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 29 May 2012 12:04:59 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>Not saying there still arent quadrillions of rounds sitting in
>>>>government storeage..but getting ones hands on it has gotten tougher
>>>>over the past 40 yrs. Leftwingers have had a LOT do do with that....
>>>
>>>Must be regional thing, that or it's all down here.
>>>-gj
>>
>>Ill take 2000 rds of 308/7.62x51
>>
>>Say...10 cents a round plus shipping?
>>
>>Gunner
>
>That may or may not be a tall order, it would be for me. But I'll
>make a call.
>-gj
Gunner Asch
May 30, 2012, 10:22:04 AM5/30/12
to
On Wed, 30 May 2012 08:46:51 -0500, G. Morgan
<seal...@osama-is-dead.net> wrote:
>I found some for $.08/ea. if you don't mind shooting blanks. <g>
>
>http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?p=WX2&i=147396
Not much use in an M1A..but the powder..that is some potent potent
stuff!
Fill a..never mind..probably get an ABC agency on my back for telling
folks how to use it as an explosive (which blank powder really is)
<seal...@osama-is-dead.net> wrote:
>
>http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?p=WX2&i=147396
Not much use in an M1A..but the powder..that is some potent potent
stuff!
Fill a..never mind..probably get an ABC agency on my back for telling
folks how to use it as an explosive (which blank powder really is)
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