Best surrealistic directors / movies?
Andreas Moss
I'm looking for tips on great surrealistic directors..
My favorites are Buñuel, Svankmajer, Quay Brothers, Fellini, Lynch,
Jodorowsky..
Is there anyone else that do equal great movies?
Andreas
Parry
Jean Cocteau.
Just kidding. I’ll recommend some titles but first note there are
problems with your very question. A director like Fellini may have
affinities with surrealism, but is not a surrealist. Lynch even less so.
A semantic distinction can be made, as Elag likes to point out, between
“surreal” and “surrealist.” The confusion typically occurs when someone
mistakenly thinks surrealism is the use of a certain type of imagery.
The notion of “great” directors is also problematic. Suffice to say that
surrealism in film is found, unavoidably, mostly in commercial films,
even if only in a single scene or image.
Surrealist directors. Excepting Buñuel, films made by surrealists are
notoriously difficult to find. Paul Hammond’s “The Shadow and Its
Shadow” contains a surrealist filmography -- the work of Robert
Benayoun, Jacques Brunius, Wilhelm Freddie, Ado Kyrou, Marcel Mariën,
and so on. If you ever find videos of this stuff, let me know.
Other films. Here’s a quick list of films I believe you would enjoy.
First, some faves: Roman Polanski’s “The Tenant,” Lindsay Anderson’s
“If...” and “O Lucky Man,” Werner Herzog’s “Fata Morgana.”
Maybe add Paolo Pasolini’s “Salo,” Ruy Guerra’s “Erendira,” Jacques
Rivette’s “Celine & Julie Go Boating.” After those, maybe Paul
Verhoeven’s “The Fourth Man” -- facially similar to the films you
mentioned but not as relevant as, say, Henry Hathaway’s “Peter
Ibbetson.”
Cartoons: Tex Avery’s and some of Fleischer’s.
Horror: A fruitful genre. For instance, George Franju’s “Les Yeux sans
visage,” Dario Argento (particularly “Suspiria,” “Terror at the Opera,”
and “Inferno”), and Argento apprentice Michael Soavi’s “Cemetery Man.”
Comedy: Monty Python, early Marx Brothers, “Never Give a Sucker an Even
Break.” There are some comedies which aren’t even funny but worth
consideration. For example, “The Last Remake of Beau Geste,” “Top Gun,”
and “Hellzapoppin.” Even Monty Python’s “The Meaning of Life” isn’t
especially funny.
Documentaries: “Mondo Cane” (but not the sequels or rip-offs), Werner
Herzog’s.
Some films I’d like to see: Walerian Borowczyk’s “Goto, Island of Love”
(and his animations), Arrabal’s “Viva le muerte.” Just read an American
director has made a digital film of Bataille’s “Story of the Eye”...
-- Parry
Andreas Moss
Well, surrealism or surrealistic.. I don't really care. To me its just a
keyword to finding movies I seem to enjoy. (Even though I would argue on
early Lynch not being surrealism.., but thats not important..)
May I add some questions?
1. Why is Jean Cocteau a joke? I haven't seen anything with him, but I heard
he's done some good movies? Could you elaborate?
2. Jacques Brunius.. all I could find on him(allmovie.com) was that he's an
actor.. and his been helping Buñuel on some of his movies.. has he made some
movies by himself as well?
3. How do you connect the movie Salo with the directors I listed? I know of
its reputation, and in some ways I do want to see it, but isn't that just a
gruesome gruesome movie with meaningless graphic violence and torture thats
been banned everywhere for ages(and even killed the director eventually)?
How is he connected with surrealism? Or with Lynch? Fellini?
4. Dario Areganto I could ask the same.. In what way are they similar to the
movies I mentioned? Do you mention them because you like both, or is it
something else as well?
5. I am just as confused with Tex Avery and Fleichers?
6. And last but not least.. Top Gun???
But thanks, a lot of the movies seemed really interesting.
These titles especially:
The Tenant
Paris Does Not Exist
The Monk
The Imitation Of The Cinema
Fata Morgana
Celine & Julie Go Boating
Peter Ibbetson
Suspuria
Les Yeux sans visage
Never Give a Sucker an Even Break
Perhaps Salo
So, thanks a whole bunch :)
Andreas
Parry
>
> Thanks for a GREAT answer Parry.
> Well, surrealism or surrealistic.. I don't really care. To me its just a
> keyword to finding movies I seem to enjoy. (Even though I would argue on
> early Lynch not being surrealism.., but thats not important..)
>
> May I add some questions?
>
> 1. Why is Jean Cocteau a joke? I haven't seen anything with him, but I heard
> he's done some good movies? Could you elaborate?
He’s a director who, in ancient times, would wrongly be labeled
“surrealist.” Surrealists hate him for being a pretentious,
religionistic “fake poet.”
> 2. Jacques Brunius.. all I could find on him(allmovie.com) was that he's an
> actor.. and his been helping Buñuel on some of his movies.. has he made some
> movies by himself as well?
Yes. The IMDb’s listing for Brunius is more complete
(http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0116306/). I believe most of his work was
commercial, but the documentary “Violons d'Ingres” sounds particularly
interesting.
> 3. How do you connect the movie Salo with the directors I listed? I know of
> its reputation, and in some ways I do want to see it, but isn't that just a
> gruesome gruesome movie with meaningless graphic violence and torture thats
> been banned everywhere for ages(and even killed the director eventually)?
> How is he connected with surrealism? Or with Lynch? Fellini?
It’s a very good movie in its own right, but I mentioned it here because
it’s based on Sade’s “120 Days of Sodom,” Sade being a major figure in
the surrealist pantheon. The story concerns a group of the powerful who
can act out their most horrific desires with impunity.
> 4. Dario Areganto I could ask the same.. In what way are they similar to the
> movies I mentioned? Do you mention them because you like both, or is it
> something else as well?
The similarities are the explosiveness of his images and non-utilitarian
narrative approach (that is to say, the film doesn’t exist to just
service the narrative, the familiar American approach). To repeat an
Argento quote: “I think that a film-maker is more or less interesting
depending on whether his dreams, nightmares, even his illusions are
interesting or not.”
> 5. I am just as confused with Tex Avery and Fleichers?
Avery’s been lauded by surrealists since at least the early 60s. To cite
Franklin Rosemont: “no medium has brought forth such an abundance of
surrealist moments as the animated cartoon. And no animationist has been
so consistently and relentlessly surrealist as Tex Avery.” His MGM
cartoons are the most hilarious and exhilarating cartoons you’ll likely
ever see. A lot of the Fleischers’ stuff -- such as “Bimbo’s Initiation”
and the old Betty Boops -- is wildly imaginative, with the animate and
inanimate in constant metamorphosis.
> 6. And last but not least.. Top Gun???
What the --?! That should have been “Top Secret,” from the guys who made
“Naked Gun.” The movie has many irrational visual jokes that apparently
confused more than amused its audience.
> But thanks, a lot of the movies seemed really interesting.
> These titles especially:
>
> The Tenant
> Paris Does Not Exist
> The Monk
> The Imitation Of The Cinema
> Fata Morgana
> Celine & Julie Go Boating
> Peter Ibbetson
> Suspuria
> Les Yeux sans visage
> Never Give a Sucker an Even Break
> Perhaps Salo
>
> So, thanks a whole bunch :)
No problem. Drop a line here if you discover anything else of interest.
-- Parry
Andreas Moss
>
> -- Parry
Yay, I will. Thanks a lot anyway, Parry.
Andreas
john adams
"Parry" <pa...@perfectOMITmail.com> wrote in message
news:4033F0...@perfectOMITmail.com...
> Andreas Moss wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for a GREAT answer Parry.
> > Well, surrealism or surrealistic.. I don't really care. To me its just a
> > keyword to finding movies I seem to enjoy. (Even though I would argue on
> > early Lynch not being surrealism.., but thats not important..)
> >
> > May I add some questions?
> >
> > 1. Why is Jean Cocteau a joke? I haven't seen anything with him, but I
heard
> > he's done some good movies? Could you elaborate?
>
> He's a director who, in ancient times, would wrongly be labeled
> "surrealist." Surrealists hate him for being a pretentious,
> religionistic "fake poet."
I still think Blood of a Poet is great now and especially for its time.
"..."
> > The Tenant
> > Paris Does Not Exist
> > The Monk
> > The Imitation Of The Cinema
> > Fata Morgana
> > Celine & Julie Go Boating
> > Peter Ibbetson
> > Suspuria
> > Les Yeux sans visage
> > Never Give a Sucker an Even Break
> > Perhaps Salo
> >
> > So, thanks a whole bunch :)
>
> No problem. Drop a line here if you discover anything else of interest.
>
> -- Parry
I was going to see 'Les Yeux Sans Visage' last week at a local showing but
my
accompaniment fizzled out. Have you seen The Triplettes of Bellville?
Very odd and beautiful animation...
Dale Houstman
john adams wrote:
> "Parry" <pa...@perfectOMITmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4033F0...@perfectOMITmail.com...
>
>>Andreas Moss wrote:
>>
>>>Thanks for a GREAT answer Parry.
>>>Well, surrealism or surrealistic.. I don't really care. To me its just a
>>>keyword to finding movies I seem to enjoy. (Even though I would argue on
>>>early Lynch not being surrealism.., but thats not important..)
>>>
>>>May I add some questions?
>>>
>>>1. Why is Jean Cocteau a joke? I haven't seen anything with him, but I
>>
> heard
>
>>>he's done some good movies? Could you elaborate?
>>
>>He's a director who, in ancient times, would wrongly be labeled
>>"surrealist." Surrealists hate him for being a pretentious,
>>religionistic "fake poet."
>
>
> I still think Blood of a Poet is great now and especially for its time.
>
> "..."
>
I think he made several interesting films, including "Beauty and the
Beast" and "L'Enfants Terribles" but after reading his memoirs, I
discovered he was an appalling lover of Nazi parties, luxury, and
celebrities, a social-climber, and an elitist aesthete.
dmh
john adams
"Dale Houstman" <dm...@citilink.com> wrote in message
news:403A02A0...@citilink.com...
That's what I've heard. Not very much to be proud of, unless you
like nazi parties, celebrities, luxury, and elitism.
Parry
>
> "Parry" <pa...@perfectOMITmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4033F0...@perfectOMITmail.com...
> > Andreas Moss wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks for a GREAT answer Parry.
> > > Well, surrealism or surrealistic.. I don't really care. To me its just a
> > > keyword to finding movies I seem to enjoy. (Even though I would argue on
> > > early Lynch not being surrealism.., but thats not important..)
> > >
> > > May I add some questions?
> > >
> > > 1. Why is Jean Cocteau a joke? I haven't seen anything with him, but I
> heard
> > > he's done some good movies? Could you elaborate?
> >
> > He's a director who, in ancient times, would wrongly be labeled
> > "surrealist." Surrealists hate him for being a pretentious,
> > religionistic "fake poet."
>
> I still think Blood of a Poet is great now and especially for its time.
Been a long time since I’ve seen it. I remember it as being pleasantly
scenic, a bit mushy in the center. It was maybe 4 to 6 weeks ahead of
its time, but such discrepancies are common in the shipping & handling
process.
> "..."
>
> > > The Tenant
> > > Paris Does Not Exist
> > > The Monk
> > > The Imitation Of The Cinema
> > > Fata Morgana
> > > Celine & Julie Go Boating
> > > Peter Ibbetson
> > > Suspuria
> > > Les Yeux sans visage
> > > Never Give a Sucker an Even Break
> > > Perhaps Salo
> > >
> > > So, thanks a whole bunch :)
> >
> > No problem. Drop a line here if you discover anything else of interest.
> >
> > -- Parry
>
> I was going to see 'Les Yeux Sans Visage' last week at a local showing but
> my
> accompaniment fizzled out.
Must be nice. I’ve only seen the movie on a video that had virtually no
grey tones. At least the censored bits had been restored.
> Have you seen The Triplettes of Bellville?
> Very odd and beautiful animation...
Haven’t had the chance yet, but the clip I saw was intriguing.
-- Parry
elag
>
> Andreas Moss wrote:
> >
> > Hey people.
> > I'm looking for tips on great surrealistic directors..
> >
> > My favorites are Buñuel, Svankmajer, Quay Brothers, Fellini, Lynch,
> > Jodorowsky..
> >
> > Is there anyone else that do equal great movies?
>
> Jean Cocteau.
>
> Just kidding. I’ll recommend some titles but first note there are
> problems with your very question. A director like Fellini may have
> affinities with surrealism, but is not a surrealist. Lynch even less so.
> A semantic distinction can be made, as Elag likes to point out, between
> “surreal” and “surrealist.” The confusion typically occurs when someone
> mistakenly thinks surrealism is the use of a certain type of imagery.
Yes, my main argument is that popular usage has transformed the word
"surreal" into litle more than a synonym for "weird", and so rendered it
useless. I'll use "surrealistic" if a film exhibits mannered mimicking
of superficial aspects of the visual style of the original Surrealists
between the wars (commonly, cribs from Dali, Magritte, Chirico, Bunuel
or Cocteau). In all other cases I prefer more specific terms, like
"dreamlike", "Nightmarish" or "Bunuelesque". I'd reserve "surrealist"
for the output of members of recognized Surrealist groups.
elag
Can we not seperate the work from the worker? There is a very nice flat
fieldstone wall upon which I've rested my bottom, which was built by a
neofascist thug. It is very sturdy and also beautiful. Shall I push it
over because of its unfortunate political leanings?
--
replace "8" with "9" to reply
elag
Still, I enjoy his films, such as they are, and I should view them,
rather than ignore them, in light of Cocteau's life. The same might be
said of "Olympia" or "Triumph of the Will" (admittedly extreme
examples). These all have at the least a historical value.
I eMember saying this about "Le Sang d'un Poete ":
I recently (re)viewed "The Blood of a Poet" by Jean Cocteau. Although
Cocteau's pacing is a bit uneven, to say the least, I was amazed at how
impressive the soundtrack is. The rich and varied use of ambient noise
gives the film a texture which is amazing for the period.
A video clip is available at:
http://www-scf.usc.edu/~pkon/Cocteau.html
It seems to me that "poetic" sound editing was almost unheard of until
the '60's. Bunuel was particularly good at exploiting the possibilities
of multiple tracks in films such as "Fantom of Liberty" in which the
almost subliminal sound of crocodiles and bells can be heard.
elag
I would like to recommend some experimental shorts which might be of
interest. It is unlikely that you'll find them at the local video store
(outside of Major Metro Areas), but many can be purchased online:
"Meshes Of the Afternoon"
"A Study In Choreography For the Camera"
"Ritual in Transfigured Time"
and others...
by Maya Deren
who stands as one of the major mileposts of experimental/independent
cinema -
http://www.algonet.se/~mjsull/
My Heroin(e)
also:
Return to Reason - Man Ray (1923, 3 minutes) Moving Ray-o-grams...
Anemic cinema - Marcel DuChamp (1926) Birth of Conceptual Cinema...
Early Abstractions - Harry Smith (1939-1956, 23 min.) Anything by Smith
is worth a look.
In The Street - Helen Levitt (1944, 15 min.) Captures the teeming
parade of humanity along East 103rd Street in New York.
Motion Painting No. 1 - Oskar Fischinger (1947) About "abstraction".
Mothlight - Stan brakhage (1963, 4 min.) Film made w/o a camera; pasting
moth wings onto celluloid.
Nymphlight - Joseph Cornell (1957, 7 min) Anything by Cornell will do in
a pinch.
Rythmetic - Evelyn Lambart, Norman McLaren (1956, 9 min.) Digits meet
in playful encounter, add and subtract, jostle, attack, and elude one another.
Happy Hunting!
Dale Houstman
I understand this argument, but it isn't one that was compelling to the
surrealists. Since the "work" is supposed to be mainly a bit of
"forensic debris" left over from an unconscious adventure (the adventure
being the truly important element of the process), to separate a
person's "work" from their - let's say - proto-nazism isn't a very
useful act. But - as I said - I liked Cocteau's work, and I AM
separating him from that. The work is often interesting, the person is
odious. Accepting the person who does work you deem acceptable is the
same problem you protest over, only from the other side.
dmh
>
Dale Houstman
Any film will. But I don't see that I - or anyone else- is particularly
repulsed by his work. All the negative comments have been about his
lifestyle, which I find suspect. But first you tell us to separate the
work from the worker, and now you suggest we should see the work in
light of the worker. Seems a bit confusing to me.
I've seen both Olympia and Triumph: terrific films, but I think it is
almost impossible - especially in those cases - to separate out the work
from the worker, since the work so deeply reflects her Nazism. So if we
do as you (contrarily) suggest and consider the work in light of the
worker, it comes off worse: she is known to have used slave labor in at
least one of her films. These are both films of glorification, and have
to be seen in light of what she is glorifying. D.W. Griffith is in much
the same boat. One can praise Birth Of A Nation for its invention of the
modern cinematic tools, but it is silly not to notice its glorification
of the KKK as being somehow significant. I haven't noticed - in
particular - that this sort of error occurs in Cocteau, so perhaps it is
an easier pill to swallow. But I don't think - from a surrealist point
of view - that one can praise a beautiful image from the mind of a
fascist, and feel good about it in the morning.
dmh
john adams
I'm gambling that Elag meant in spite of instead of "in light of"
up above.
Dale Houstman
Possibly. But one point still remains: nobody was saying they wouldn't
see Cocteau's films because of his "lifestyle" only that it was
impossible to consider him a surrealist because of same. After all,
surrealism is more than the "product" and Cocteau's celebrity-baiting
and war activities preclude his consideration, even if he had wanted to
hang with such a bunch of poor people. The films can be viewed on their
own merits, but his surrealist "credentials" cannot.
dmh
>
>
john adams
>
> > I'm gambling that Elag meant in spite of instead of "in light of"
> > up above.
>
> Possibly. But one point still remains: nobody was saying they wouldn't
> see Cocteau's films because of his "lifestyle" only that it was
> impossible to consider him a surrealist because of same. After all,
> surrealism is more than the "product" and Cocteau's celebrity-baiting
> and war activities preclude his consideration, even if he had wanted to
> hang with such a bunch of poor people. The films can be viewed on their
> own merits, but his surrealist "credentials" cannot.
And I suppose that was the point: to view the films on their own merit.
There are things "surrealist" that can be found anywhere, high and low. That
he wasn't in the good graces of Surrealists - for good reasons - is
established and understood.
Dale Houstman
Then what was the discussion about in the first place, since nobody ever
said the film shouldn't be viewed upon their own merit?
dmh
john adams
elag
No, I meant "in light of", however, what I should have said was: I would
rather VIEW them in the CONTEXT of Cocteau's life rather than ignore
them because of unsavory aspects of his life.
I might say the same of Celine, Al Capp or G.G. Allin all of whom have
philosophical lead feet from my perspective.
In any case my comments weren't meant as a challenge... they're merely
thoughts I had about a filmmaker whose work I've enjoyed. Since his
work was called into question as "a joke" I thought I might venture a
few positive thoughts or points to ponder.
elag
Sure, I'm not ignorant of the history, either. Some of his images and
techniques might be of interest to people studying the context of
Surrealism betweeen the wars... that is all.
elag
Just another Snipe hunt.
john adams
"elag" <el...@cloud8.net> wrote in message
> No, I meant "in light of", however, what I should have said was: I would
> rather VIEW them in the CONTEXT of Cocteau's life rather than ignore
> them because of unsavory aspects of his life.
>
> I might say the same of Celine, Al Capp or G.G. Allin all of whom have
> philosophical lead feet from my perspective.
>
> In any case my comments weren't meant as a challenge... they're merely
> thoughts I had about a filmmaker whose work I've enjoyed. Since his
> work was called into question as "a joke" I thought I might venture a
> few positive thoughts or points to ponder.
Well, then I'm with Dale (a little bit confused). I'm not sure if we are
examining the merits of the film or, instead, deciding not to separate the
film from the life and viewing cocteau from that perspective.
I guess it might be interesting to try to understand Cocteau the Nazi
flirter from a psychological angle though. Similar to along these lines with
Bush: http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0%2C12271%2C1033904%2C00.html
john adams
ever
> > > said the film shouldn't be viewed upon their own merit?
> >
> > Hell if I know!
>
>
> Just another Snipe hunt.
Fooled once again (but: a thunderbolt reaches through the branch
and strangles a bird while the white pistol shoots a flower.
Pink robots rendezvous on torn space, time).
Dale Houstman
john adams wrote:
>
>
> Fooled once again (but: a thunderbolt reaches through the branch
> and strangles a bird while the white pistol shoots a flower.
> Pink robots rendezvous on torn space, time).
>
>
Give The Pink Robots The Pink Slip: Drink White-Haired Revolver Gin!
Gauranteed - No Flaming Lips And A Corsage Of Sausages To Boot!
Brought To You By BlameCorp: We Blame You...
dmh
john adams
If the white hare senses foul play make him drink his own senses. Or, if no
one is feeling unconventional, paint yellow roses in yak urine and call it a
lousy day. Besides, you owe it to yourself to become an important citizen.
(a paid advertisement by Camel Juice, Inc.)
Parry
Perhaps you should add your definition to urbandictionary.com, which is
a people's dictionary without quality control, sort of a ridiculous
counterpart to Wikipedia. It has no entry for "surrealism," but the
definitions of "dada" aren't bad:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dadaism
-- Parry
Parry
>
> "elag" <el...@cloud8.net> wrote in message
> > No, I meant "in light of", however, what I should have said was: I would
> > rather VIEW them in the CONTEXT of Cocteau's life rather than ignore
> > them because of unsavory aspects of his life.
> >
> > I might say the same of Celine, Al Capp or G.G. Allin all of whom have
> > philosophical lead feet from my perspective.
> >
> > In any case my comments weren't meant as a challenge... they're merely
> > thoughts I had about a filmmaker whose work I've enjoyed. Since his
> > work was called into question as "a joke" I thought I might venture a
> > few positive thoughts or points to ponder.
>
> Well, then I'm with Dale (a little bit confused). I'm not sure if we are
> examining the merits of the film or, instead, deciding not to separate the
> film from the life and viewing cocteau from that perspective.
Films reflect some of the human qualities of their creators. It's been
so long since I've seen "Blood of a Poet" that my memory of it is vague,
but I recall that it gave me the impression Cocteau was an aesthete
(this is before I knew much about him). So even if one chooses to study
the film in a vacuum, I'd say the movie is runs against surrealist
principles.
-- Parry
elag
I posted pretty much the whole spiel under "surreal".
elag
>
> john adams wrote:
> >
> > "elag" <el...@cloud8.net> wrote in message
> > > No, I meant "in light of", however, what I should have said was: I would
> > > rather VIEW them in the CONTEXT of Cocteau's life rather than ignore
> > > them because of unsavory aspects of his life.
> > >
> > > I might say the same of Celine, Al Capp or G.G. Allin all of whom have
> > > philosophical lead feet from my perspective.
> > >
> > > In any case my comments weren't meant as a challenge... they're merely
> > > thoughts I had about a filmmaker whose work I've enjoyed. Since his
> > > work was called into question as "a joke" I thought I might venture a
> > > few positive thoughts or points to ponder.
> >
> > Well, then I'm with Dale (a little bit confused). I'm not sure if we are
> > examining the merits of the film or, instead, deciding not to separate the
> > film from the life and viewing cocteau from that perspective.
>
> Films reflect some of the human qualities of their creators. It's been
> so long since I've seen "Blood of a Poet" that my memory of it is vague,
> but I recall that it gave me the impression Cocteau was an aesthete
I'd say that this is pretty accurate. I enjoy his remains on my most
aesthetic days.
> (this is before I knew much about him). So even if one chooses to study
> the film in a vacuum, I'd say the movie is runs against surrealist
> principles.
I don't know... I see where he is at odds with the Surrealists
ideologically, but their concerns did overlap. His interest in and
interpretations of dreams and concentration on the centrality of the
poetic vision lead me to wonder if "Sange.." viewed as an anonymous work
might not seem too out of place at a Surrealist film show circa '30. Of
course, I haven't seen many of the more obscure films from their shows
so I'm not too sure what might pass muster.
I suppose I'd have to look at it scene by scene before I'd venture a
firm opinion.
elag
Pink is a becoming color for robots, but aren't robots becoming a bit
too bold?
You know there are snipe
and
sniping
but did you know there was
Supersnipe?
http://www.toonopedia.com/suprsnip.htm
http://www.quarterbin.net/opinion/opi63.html
http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/bhoc/105039134691803.htm
elag
>
> "elag" <el...@cloud8.net> wrote in message
> > No, I meant "in light of", however, what I should have said was: I would
> > rather VIEW them in the CONTEXT of Cocteau's life rather than ignore
> > them because of unsavory aspects of his life.
> >
> > I might say the same of Celine, Al Capp or G.G. Allin all of whom have
> > philosophical lead feet from my perspective.
> >
> > In any case my comments weren't meant as a challenge... they're merely
> > thoughts I had about a filmmaker whose work I've enjoyed. Since his
> > work was called into question as "a joke" I thought I might venture a
> > few positive thoughts or points to ponder.
>
> Well, then I'm with Dale (a little bit confused). I'm not sure if we are
> examining the merits of the film or, instead, deciding not to separate the
> film from the life and viewing cocteau from that perspective.
I didn't feel I was deciding anything definitively. Consider it a
rhetorical device... reiterating earlier opinions in such a way as to
frame a possible debate on the topic. Add to that my lazy habit of
responding to several upstream posts at once when wading in far
downstream in the thread and perhaps it makes more sense.
I was thinking more about the original"Cocteau/ a joke" question than
the posts where my responses fell.
Fell in the well... well, well, well...
>
> I guess it might be interesting to try to understand Cocteau the Nazi
> flirter from a psychological angle though. Similar to along these lines with
> Bush: http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0%2C12271%2C1033904%2C00.html
It would make for an interesting Film or Literary thesis.
john adams
"Parry" <pa...@perfactOMITmail.com> wrote in message
news:4048E3...@perfactOMITmail.com...
> john adams wrote:
> >
> > "elag" <el...@cloud8.net> wrote in message
> > > No, I meant "in light of", however, what I should have said was: I
would
> > > rather VIEW them in the CONTEXT of Cocteau's life rather than ignore
> > > them because of unsavory aspects of his life.
> > >
> > > I might say the same of Celine, Al Capp or G.G. Allin all of whom have
> > > philosophical lead feet from my perspective.
> > >
> > > In any case my comments weren't meant as a challenge... they're merely
> > > thoughts I had about a filmmaker whose work I've enjoyed. Since his
> > > work was called into question as "a joke" I thought I might venture a
> > > few positive thoughts or points to ponder.
> >
> > Well, then I'm with Dale (a little bit confused). I'm not sure if we
are
> > examining the merits of the film or, instead, deciding not to separate
the
> > film from the life and viewing cocteau from that perspective.
>
> Films reflect some of the human qualities of their creators. It's been
> so long since I've seen "Blood of a Poet" that my memory of it is vague,
> but I recall that it gave me the impression Cocteau was an aesthete
> (this is before I knew much about him). So even if one chooses to study
> the film in a vacuum, I'd say the movie is runs against surrealist
> principles.
How so? I think it had quite a few interesting scenes, some of them
"dream-like" if you will. Because he may have been an aesthete doesn't
invalidate the film itself.
Parry
> > > my main argument is that popular usage has transformed the word
> > > "surreal" into litle more than a synonym for "weird", and so rendered it
> > > useless. I'll use "surrealistic" if a film exhibits mannered mimicking
> > > of superficial aspects of the visual style of the original Surrealists
> > > between the wars (commonly, cribs from Dali, Magritte, Chirico, Bunuel
> > > or Cocteau). In all other cases I prefer more specific terms, like
> > > "dreamlike", "Nightmarish" or "Bunuelesque". I'd reserve "surrealist"
> > > for the output of members of recognized Surrealist groups.
> >
> > Perhaps you should add your definition to urbandictionary.com, which is
> > a people's dictionary without quality control, sort of a ridiculous
> > counterpart to Wikipedia. It has no entry for "surrealism," but the
> > definitions of "dada" aren't bad:
> > http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dadaism
>
> I posted pretty much the whole spiel under "surreal".
Can’t hurt. The words aren't abused only in casual conversation:
currently there’s yet another art gallery staging a fraudulent
“surrealist” show. The dictionary site’s pretty funny. For instance:
American http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=american&f=1
-- Parry
Parry
Cocteau...
> I see where he is at odds with the Surrealists
> ideologically, but their concerns did overlap. His interest in and
> interpretations of dreams and concentration on the centrality of the
> poetic vision lead me to wonder if "Sange.." viewed as an anonymous work
> might not seem too out of place at a Surrealist film show circa '30. Of
> course, I haven't seen many of the more obscure films from their shows
> so I'm not too sure what might pass muster.
>
> I suppose I'd have to look at it scene by scene before I'd venture a
> firm opinion.
Ditto. It would be interesting to see it again with such questions in
mind. But I can’t find a videotape in town.
-- Parry
Parry
> > > Well, then I'm with Dale (a little bit confused). I'm not sure if we
> are
> > > examining the merits of the film or, instead, deciding not to separate
> the
> > > film from the life and viewing cocteau from that perspective.
> >
> > Films reflect some of the human qualities of their creators. It's been
> > so long since I've seen "Blood of a Poet" that my memory of it is vague,
> > but I recall that it gave me the impression Cocteau was an aesthete
> > (this is before I knew much about him). So even if one chooses to study
> > the film in a vacuum, I'd say the movie is runs against surrealist
> > principles.
>
> How so? I think it had quite a few interesting scenes, some of them
> "dream-like" if you will. Because he may have been an aesthete doesn't
> invalidate the film itself.
It’s does insofar as the director’s ethos is evidenced by the film.
Unfortunately, I don’t have many references on hand to deal with this
issue, but I don’t believe surrealist criticism of Cocteau or this film
was motivated by sheerly personal reasons. J.H. Matthews would describe
the contemporaries “L’Age d’Or” (1930) and “Le Sang d’un Poète” as two
films which “violently contradicted one another.”
-- Parry
elag
This is good too... scroll down a bit or search for "American":
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=merkin&f=1
elag
Amazon has it if you're interested.
datacide
this group is that George Bush is
a surrealist film maker
Andreas Moss wrote:
> Hey people.
> I'm looking for tips on great surrealistic directors..
>
> My favorites are Buñuel, Svankmajer, Quay Brothers, Fellini, Lynch,
> Jodorowsky..
>
> Is there anyone else that do equal great movies?
>
> Andreas
>
john adams
to all of his films, least of which is Dirty Dancing
in the White House. Thank you for your inquiry.
May a giant fly jump out at you when you least
expect it.
"datacide" <sun...@aol.net> wrote in message
news:n5qdnaHBQJE...@lmi.net...
datacide
who think they are surrealists.
fly jumped back