H0llyw00d Flatlands
elag
avant garde
In 1927, the vogue for "Felix the Cat" films in France spurred art
historian Marcel Brion to remark on Felix's expressiveness. Brion
indicated a similarity between the films' permutable world and the
visions of the Surrealist movement. He called Felix a "sur-chat",
unlike everyday cats. Felix converts objects all the time: question
marks turn into skyhooks, his tail a Chaplin style walking stick or a
ship mast or a car crank, horizon lines become tightropes, and the
titles become objects in the story. Felix can become a holdall bag, if
the situation demands it. Resourcefullness is the most important thing.
In "Felix Dopes It Out" (1924), a lion's roars appear as rings of
sound. These then get used as lasso like restrainers. Everything in
the drawn world is of the same stuff.
.................................................................
In this utopia of reinvigorated social and natural relations, the thing
most apparent is the reinvigoration of the object world, of that which
is normally inatimate, or inarticulate. This is what [Walter] Benjamin
thought found voice in Surrealism... the moment when he read Louis
Aragon's description in "Paris Peasant" of a window display of walking
sticks that comes to life in the Passage de l'Opera. Surrealism
supercharged objects, endowing them with energy, autonomy and life.
.................................................................
Under Breton's gaze, Trotsky turned into Mickey M0use, the boy who has
always at his side the faithful but dumb hound, who is more, who is more
than a hound, and is his friend - Pluto. Walking on the patio, Trotsky
stopped to pat and pet a dog. He began to speak of his love of animals,
the love that comes from animals. Breton retorted in unsentimentalizing
fashion that animals cannot have feelings of friendship. Trotsky for
his part insisted that they could share those feelings in every sense of
the word. This anthropomorphic view of the animal world evidences,
says Breton, "a regrettable and facile way of thinking", though it is
also poignant because it betrays - or even confirms for Breton - the
weakness of this man who is by the time of Breton's memoir writing the
casualty of "a tragic fate". But is it not touching that Trotsky should
hold out such hope for dogs, the very delegates of faithfulness, of
fidelity, condemned as he is to exist in a world of agents, spies and betrayers?
JBE...@nyc.rr.com
http://www.telusplanet.net/public/triben/God_Bless_America.htm
Paul Heslop
>
> Excerpts from: H0llyw00d Flatlands - animation, critical theory and the
> avant garde
>
> In 1927, the vogue for "Felix the Cat" films in France spurred art
> historian Marcel Brion to remark on Felix's expressiveness. Brion
> indicated a similarity between the films' permutable world and the
> visions of the Surrealist movement. He called Felix a "sur-chat",
> unlike everyday cats. Felix converts objects all the time: question
> marks turn into skyhooks, his tail a Chaplin style walking stick or a
> ship mast or a car crank, horizon lines become tightropes, and the
> titles become objects in the story. Felix can become a holdall bag, if
> the situation demands it. Resourcefullness is the most important thing.
> In "Felix Dopes It Out" (1924), a lion's roars appear as rings of
> sound. These then get used as lasso like restrainers. Everything in
> the drawn world is of the same stuff.
>
newer stuff to be way out, such as fritz the cat. Tex Avery is EXTREME.
--
Paul. (Oh, he don't know, so he chases them away)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Not what it seems...
http://www.geocities.com/dreamst8me/
elag
>
> elag wrote:
> >
> > Excerpts from: H0llyw00d Flatlands - animation, critical theory and the
> > avant garde
> >
> > In 1927, the vogue for "Felix the Cat" films in France spurred art
> > historian Marcel Brion to remark on Felix's expressiveness. Brion
> > indicated a similarity between the films' permutable world and the
> > visions of the Surrealist movement. He called Felix a "sur-chat",
> > unlike everyday cats. Felix converts objects all the time: question
> > marks turn into skyhooks, his tail a Chaplin style walking stick or a
> > ship mast or a car crank, horizon lines become tightropes, and the
> > titles become objects in the story. Felix can become a holdall bag, if
> > the situation demands it. Resourcefullness is the most important thing.
> > In "Felix Dopes It Out" (1924), a lion's roars appear as rings of
> > sound. These then get used as lasso like restrainers. Everything in
> > the drawn world is of the same stuff.
> >
> Felix was amazing, but so were most early animations. We had to force
> newer stuff to be way out, such as fritz the cat. Tex Avery is EXTREME.
Tex Avery was so great that it's hard for some today to fully appreciate
it, because he's been copied so many times (notably in "The Mask") and
often copied nearly frame for frame.
I really like the early toons. Lately I'm very interested in the silent
toons like Felix and Koko the Clown. I was a projectionist for a
History of Animation class so I've seen examples of the most important
stuff, but I've got a hankering to track down more.
Right now I'm doing tests for a B & W silent cartoon in 20's style which
I'll create digitally and possibly xfer to film.
Paul Heslop
Cool. I used to do little animation, very simple stuff based on
advertisements, on my old Amiga 1200. Since moving up to the PC
everything is so complex and it has kind of fallen by the wayside.
I have been watching Avery cartoons for so long and adored them all. I
got my kids watching them and they loved that old wolf and Granma etc. I
also got my grandaughter interested in the old Tom and Jerry toons, she
now has a full 4 hour tape of the things which she watches religiously,
probably able to point out bits I missed. I can recall with lots of
toons seeing little things, almost secret things, then slow motioning
the tapes to see if what i thought I saw was really there.
I still love toons, but not most of this modern stuff. I admire the
anime things but it's so mass produced. Barring Jungle Book and odd
shorts I am not a Disney fan.
--
Paul. (The day that I was born (oh boy) my father nearly died)
JBE...@nyc.rr.com
elag
You can always download the freeware "Gifbuilder"... I think there's a
Winders version. It's simple, fun, lo-res and web ready. What more
could you ask?
>
> I have been watching Avery cartoons for so long and adored them all. I
> got my kids watching them and they loved that old wolf and Granma etc. I
> also got my grandaughter interested in the old Tom and Jerry toons, she
> now has a full 4 hour tape of the things which she watches religiously,
> probably able to point out bits I missed. I can recall with lots of
> toons seeing little things, almost secret things, then slow motioning
> the tapes to see if what i thought I saw was really there.
Simpsons and Futurama were great for that sort of thing.
>
> I still love toons, but not most of this modern stuff.
Probably because most modern stuff is aimed at infinks and sub normals
at that. Most of the good old toons were aimed at adults or at least a
mixed audience. Most toons were diminished in intelligence when they
moved from the big to the small screen.
1956-58 seems to be the point at which most of the old characters were
lobotomized... of course in the 80's and 90's their brainpans were well
and fully scraped clean. Space Jam was the nadir of this unfortunate trend.
Some of the new stuff like Samurai Jack, or even the Powerpuff Girls can
be good... but mainly in small doses.
> I admire the anime things but it's so mass produced.
Cowboy Bebop was pretty interesting. Too bad there will never be more.
I hear that there's a movie, but I find it hard to be excited by this
sort of thing.
> Barring Jungle Book and odd shorts I am not a Disney fan.
I find Disney to be mostly pap or crass bowdlerizations. I can dig some
of the old stuff though... mainly the B & W toons.
Paul Heslop
> > Cool. I used to do little animation, very simple stuff based on
> > advertisements, on my old Amiga 1200. Since moving up to the PC
> > everything is so complex and it has kind of fallen by the wayside.
>
> You can always download the freeware "Gifbuilder"... I think there's a
> Winders version. It's simple, fun, lo-res and web ready. What more
> could you ask?
hmmmm... I guess this is something I should be looking at. Thanks for
the info. (funny, GIFS were just about the best image you could get on
the amiga... I recall having to wait about ten minutes for a JPEG to
decompress.)
>
> >
> > I have been watching Avery cartoons for so long and adored them all. I
> > got my kids watching them and they loved that old wolf and Granma etc. I
> > also got my grandaughter interested in the old Tom and Jerry toons, she
> > now has a full 4 hour tape of the things which she watches religiously,
> > probably able to point out bits I missed. I can recall with lots of
> > toons seeing little things, almost secret things, then slow motioning
> > the tapes to see if what i thought I saw was really there.
>
> Simpsons and Futurama were great for that sort of thing.
True true. they carry the flag, keep the wits sharp, and are so full of
sly innuendo. You forget the truly insane Family Guy.
>
> >
> > I still love toons, but not most of this modern stuff.
>
> Probably because most modern stuff is aimed at infinks and sub normals
> at that. Most of the good old toons were aimed at adults or at least a
> mixed audience. Most toons were diminished in intelligence when they
> moved from the big to the small screen.
>
> 1956-58 seems to be the point at which most of the old characters were
> lobotomized... of course in the 80's and 90's their brainpans were well
> and fully scraped clean. Space Jam was the nadir of this unfortunate trend.
>
> Some of the new stuff like Samurai Jack, or even the Powerpuff Girls can
> be good... but mainly in small doses.
I have seen a tiny bit of Samurai Jack... and i recall some little
thing, part of a bigger programme, which consisted of action figures and
dolls etc which were members of a super hero team, only they were really
bad, like a melted soldier and a diver who had been down the toilet and
a naked He-Man type. I think it was a kid's thing, but it made me laugh.
On the subject of lobotomized older characters, those modern Tom and
Jerrys! Where they broadcast the joke about five minutes before it
happened and dragged everything out to such an extent that even if it
started funny it jaded quickly... oh yeah, and they were ugly too!
>
> > I admire the anime things but it's so mass produced.
>
> Cowboy Bebop was pretty interesting. Too bad there will never be more.
> I hear that there's a movie, but I find it hard to be excited by this
> sort of thing.
Akira will always have a special place.
>
> > Barring Jungle Book and odd shorts I am not a Disney fan.
>
> I find Disney to be mostly pap or crass bowdlerizations. I can dig some
> of the old stuff though... mainly the B & W toons.
yep, waaaaaaaaaay back. He just laid claim to too much, he was nothing
better than a showman.
Gimme ten minutes of any Hal Roach comedy than two hours of Disney.
--
Paul. (When all at once a mighty herd of red eyed cows he saw)
JBE...@nyc.rr.com
elag
>
> elag wrote:
>
> >
> > >
> > > I still love toons, but not most of this modern stuff.
> >
> > Probably because most modern stuff is aimed at infinks and sub normals
> > at that. Most of the good old toons were aimed at adults or at least a
> > mixed audience. Most toons were diminished in intelligence when they
> > moved from the big to the small screen.
> >
> > 1956-58 seems to be the point at which most of the old characters were
> > lobotomized... of course in the 80's and 90's their brainpans were well
> > and fully scraped clean. Space Jam was the nadir of this unfortunate trend.
> >
> > Some of the new stuff like Samurai Jack, or even the Powerpuff Girls can
> > be good... but mainly in small doses.
>
> I have seen a tiny bit of Samurai Jack... and i recall some little
> thing, part of a bigger programme, which consisted of action figures and
> dolls etc which were members of a super hero team, only they were really
> bad, like a melted soldier and a diver who had been down the toilet and
> a naked He-Man type. I think it was a kid's thing, but it made me laugh.
That sounds vaguely familiar... the idea, at least, sounds interesting.
>
> On the subject of lobotomized older characters, those modern Tom and
> Jerrys! Where they broadcast the joke about five minutes before it
> happened and dragged everything out to such an extent that even if it
> started funny it jaded quickly... oh yeah, and they were ugly too!
> >
> > > I admire the anime things but it's so mass produced.
> >
> > Cowboy Bebop was pretty interesting. Too bad there will never be more.
> > I hear that there's a movie, but I find it hard to be excited by this
> > sort of thing.
>
> Akira will always have a special place.
I guess that was the beginning of the Anime craze over here. This sort
of hyperviolence is not really to my taste, but I will say it's rarely
been done better.
> >
> > > Barring Jungle Book and odd shorts I am not a Disney fan.
> >
> > I find Disney to be mostly pap or crass bowdlerizations. I can dig some
> > of the old stuff though... mainly the B & W toons.
>
> yep, waaaaaaaaaay back. He just laid claim to too much, he was nothing
> better than a showman.
He WAS instrumental in developing the medium even if he did build on the
(mosly unrecognized) work of people like the Fleischer Bros. His stuff
is mosly so middle-brow that it couldn't avoid being popular. Today the
megacorp Disney is so reactionary and flaccid that I can't even stomach
sorting through their feature length adverts to get at any crumbs which
might be interesting.
> Gimme ten minutes of any Hal Roach comedy than two hours of Disney.
If you like that stuff you really must track down the Beau Hunks
recordings of the "Little Rascals" (Our Gang) music (Try Amazon).... you
won't regret it... it is the music of your subconscious.
Paul Heslop
> > I have seen a tiny bit of Samurai Jack... and i recall some little
> > thing, part of a bigger programme, which consisted of action figures and
> > dolls etc which were members of a super hero team, only they were really
> > bad, like a melted soldier and a diver who had been down the toilet and
> > a naked He-Man type. I think it was a kid's thing, but it made me laugh.
>
> That sounds vaguely familiar... the idea, at least, sounds interesting.
>
It was deliberately badly made and corny, but funny as hell, and I wish
I could recall the name of it. It was only a section of a show, on one
of the Sat channels like Nickleodeon
> >
> > Akira will always have a special place.
>
> I guess that was the beginning of the Anime craze over here. This sort
> of hyperviolence is not really to my taste, but I will say it's rarely
> been done better.
Ah, I referred more to the art. I often watch them just for the
pictures, terrible i know but the 'acting' is so awful!
> > yep, waaaaaaaaaay back. He just laid claim to too much, he was nothing
> > better than a showman.
>
> He WAS instrumental in developing the medium even if he did build on the
> (mosly unrecognized) work of people like the Fleischer Bros. His stuff
> is mosly so middle-brow that it couldn't avoid being popular. Today the
> megacorp Disney is so reactionary and flaccid that I can't even stomach
> sorting through their feature length adverts to get at any crumbs which
> might be interesting.
I read a book recently by Fleischer's son... the director (memory like a
sieve!) good read but he speaks a few times of the bitterness between
his father and Disney. The one good thing about Disney's attitude is it
gets us some good gags for the Simpsons :O)
>
> > Gimme ten minutes of any Hal Roach comedy than two hours of Disney.
>
> If you like that stuff you really must track down the Beau Hunks
> recordings of the "Little Rascals" (Our Gang) music (Try Amazon).... you
> won't regret it... it is the music of your subconscious.
I shall have to search. Our web servers etc are a pure mess at the
moment though. I haven't had any emails for two days and sometimes using
the web etc is almost useless
--
Paul. (A born-again poor man's son)
JBE...@nyc.rr.com
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/daily/oct99/sierra16.htm
elag
>
> elag wrote:
>
> > > I have seen a tiny bit of Samurai Jack... and i recall some little
> > > thing, part of a bigger programme, which consisted of action figures and
> > > dolls etc which were members of a super hero team, only they were really
> > > bad, like a melted soldier and a diver who had been down the toilet and
> > > a naked He-Man type. I think it was a kid's thing, but it made me laugh.
> >
> > That sounds vaguely familiar... the idea, at least, sounds interesting.
> >
> It was deliberately badly made and corny, but funny as hell, and I wish
> I could recall the name of it. It was only a section of a show, on one
> of the Sat channels like Nickleodeon
>
> > >
> > > Akira will always have a special place.
> >
> > I guess that was the beginning of the Anime craze over here. This sort
> > of hyperviolence is not really to my taste, but I will say it's rarely
> > been done better.
>
> Ah, I referred more to the art. I often watch them just for the
> pictures, terrible i know but the 'acting' is so awful!
Yes, I watch a lot of them almost purely for the art, but I do prefer a
good balance of elements. The reading of the anime translators does
often leave much to be desired... kind of like phonetic readings with no
idea of the content. Sometimes though this gives them a strange dreamy feeling.
>
> > > yep, waaaaaaaaaay back. He just laid claim to too much, he was nothing
> > > better than a showman.
> >
> > He WAS instrumental in developing the medium even if he did build on the
> > (mosly unrecognized) work of people like the Fleischer Bros. His stuff
> > is mosly so middle-brow that it couldn't avoid being popular. Today the
> > megacorp Disney is so reactionary and flaccid that I can't even stomach
> > sorting through their feature length adverts to get at any crumbs which
> > might be interesting.
>
> I read a book recently by Fleischer's son... the director (memory like a
> sieve!) good read but he speaks a few times of the bitterness between
> his father and Disney. The one good thing about Disney's attitude is it
> gets us some good gags for the Simpsons :O)
Sounds like a book I'd like to read... care to share the title?
Disney definitely had the business end of it together. The Fleiscers
unfortunately suffered bankruptcy and being bought out and fired from
their own company... a bitter reward for their many innovations and
their many great toons.
On the other hand Max was something of a bastard and it is hard to root
for him.
I can't recall how Dave's lot turned out after he broke w/ Max...
Disney was also an easy target of the satirical barbs of the Warner
Bros. artists.
> >
> > > Gimme ten minutes of any Hal Roach comedy than two hours of Disney.
> >
> > If you like that stuff you really must track down the Beau Hunks
> > recordings of the "Little Rascals" (Our Gang) music (Try Amazon).... you
> > won't regret it... it is the music of your subconscious.
>
> I shall have to search. Our web servers etc are a pure mess at the
> moment though. I haven't had any emails for two days and sometimes using
> the web etc is almost useless
So that high speed access isn't always what it's cracked up to be...
I hope you check it out when the Web returns...
Let me know if you need any info on the CD...
Paul Heslop
> >
> > Ah, I referred more to the art. I often watch them just for the
> > pictures, terrible i know but the 'acting' is so awful!
>
> Yes, I watch a lot of them almost purely for the art, but I do prefer a
> good balance of elements. The reading of the anime translators does
> often leave much to be desired... kind of like phonetic readings with no
> idea of the content. Sometimes though this gives them a strange dreamy feeling.
My son and I often have hysterics at the speed they read at, and the
frequent inane grins females have to wear.
> > I read a book recently by Fleischer's son... the director (memory like a
> > sieve!) good read but he speaks a few times of the bitterness between
> > his father and Disney. The one good thing about Disney's attitude is it
> > gets us some good gags for the Simpsons :O)
>
> Sounds like a book I'd like to read... care to share the title?
Richard Fleischer - Just Tell Me When to Cry. a very good read.
>
> Disney definitely had the business end of it together. The Fleiscers
> unfortunately suffered bankruptcy and being bought out and fired from
> their own company... a bitter reward for their many innovations and
> their many great toons.
>
> On the other hand Max was something of a bastard and it is hard to root
> for him.
I need to know more about Max... I'll have to see if there's a biog for
him.
>
> I can't recall how Dave's lot turned out after he broke w/ Max...
>
> Disney was also an easy target of the satirical barbs of the Warner
> Bros. artists.
Oh yes, but wasn't everyone?
>
> > >
> > > > Gimme ten minutes of any Hal Roach comedy than two hours of Disney.
> > >
> > > If you like that stuff you really must track down the Beau Hunks
> > > recordings of the "Little Rascals" (Our Gang) music (Try Amazon).... you
> > > won't regret it... it is the music of your subconscious.
> >
> > I shall have to search. Our web servers etc are a pure mess at the
> > moment though. I haven't had any emails for two days and sometimes using
> > the web etc is almost useless
>
> So that high speed access isn't always what it's cracked up to be...
>
> I hope you check it out when the Web returns...
>
> Let me know if you need any info on the CD...
Well, things are beginning to pick up again... we had no email for 4
days. Could post to newsgroups but everything else was a mess
JBE...@nyc.rr.com
http://www.military-network.com/ben/Associations.cfm?category=usmc_nmbr
elag
>
> elag wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Ah, I referred more to the art. I often watch them just for the
> > > pictures, terrible i know but the 'acting' is so awful!
> >
> > Yes, I watch a lot of them almost purely for the art, but I do prefer a
> > good balance of elements. The reading of the anime translators does
> > often leave much to be desired... kind of like phonetic readings with no
> > idea of the content. Sometimes though this gives them a strange dreamy feeling.
>
> My son and I often have hysterics at the speed they read at, and the
> frequent inane grins females have to wear.
They have to read at a pace that matches the length of time in which the
lips move... they certainly can't match the finesse of the dubbers at
Cinecitta in Italy... until recentl times all movies in Italy used sound
recorded in the studio.
>
> > > I read a book recently by Fleischer's son... the director (memory like a
> > > sieve!) good read but he speaks a few times of the bitterness between
> > > his father and Disney. The one good thing about Disney's attitude is it
> > > gets us some good gags for the Simpsons :O)
> >
> > Sounds like a book I'd like to read... care to share the title?
>
> Richard Fleischer - Just Tell Me When to Cry. a very good read.
Melodramatic title, that... Good I can grab it at the Public Library.
> >
> > Disney definitely had the business end of it together. The Fleiscers
> > unfortunately suffered bankruptcy and being bought out and fired from
> > their own company... a bitter reward for their many innovations and
> > their many great toons.
> >
> > On the other hand Max was something of a bastard and it is hard to root
> > for him.
>
> I need to know more about Max... I'll have to see if there's a biog for
> him.
Here's a lot of the most basic info:
http://www.bfi.org.uk/sightandsound/archive/innovators/fleischer.html
...
> > So that high speed access isn't always what it's cracked up to be...
> >
> > I hope you check it out when the Web returns...
> >
> > Let me know if you need any info on the CD...
>
> Well, things are beginning to pick up again... we had no email for 4
> days. Could post to newsgroups but everything else was a mess
Sometimes it still is the World Wide Wait.
Paul Heslop
>
> Paul Heslop wrote:
> >
> > elag wrote:
> >
> > > >
> > > > Ah, I referred more to the art. I often watch them just for the
> > > > pictures, terrible i know but the 'acting' is so awful!
> > >
> > > Yes, I watch a lot of them almost purely for the art, but I do prefer a
> > > good balance of elements. The reading of the anime translators does
> > > often leave much to be desired... kind of like phonetic readings with no
> > > idea of the content. Sometimes though this gives them a strange dreamy feeling.
> >
> > My son and I often have hysterics at the speed they read at, and the
> > frequent inane grins females have to wear.
>
> They have to read at a pace that matches the length of time in which the
> lips move... they certainly can't match the finesse of the dubbers at
> Cinecitta in Italy... until recentl times all movies in Italy used sound
> recorded in the studio.
>
blindfolds. I have the dreaded black edge on my sight, which means
oncoming Migraine!
> >
> > > > I read a book recently by Fleischer's son... the director (memory like a
> > > > sieve!) good read but he speaks a few times of the bitterness between
> > > > his father and Disney. The one good thing about Disney's attitude is it
> > > > gets us some good gags for the Simpsons :O)
> > >
> > > Sounds like a book I'd like to read... care to share the title?
> >
> > Richard Fleischer - Just Tell Me When to Cry. a very good read.
>
> Melodramatic title, that... Good I can grab it at the Public Library.
Which is where I got it :O)
>
> > >
> > > Disney definitely had the business end of it together. The Fleiscers
> > > unfortunately suffered bankruptcy and being bought out and fired from
> > > their own company... a bitter reward for their many innovations and
> > > their many great toons.
> > >
> > > On the other hand Max was something of a bastard and it is hard to root
> > > for him.
> >
> > I need to know more about Max... I'll have to see if there's a biog for
> > him.
>
> Here's a lot of the most basic info:
>
> http://www.bfi.org.uk/sightandsound/archive/innovators/fleischer.html
Again, I'll have to wait now until the eyes are ready for it... beddy
byes for Paul at 4am!
>
> ...
>
> > > So that high speed access isn't always what it's cracked up to be...
> > >
> > > I hope you check it out when the Web returns...
> > >
> > > Let me know if you need any info on the CD...
> >
> > Well, things are beginning to pick up again... we had no email for 4
> > days. Could post to newsgroups but everything else was a mess
>
> Sometimes it still is the World Wide Wait.
whaddya mean, 'sometimes'? :O)
JBE...@nyc.rr.com
elag
>
> elag wrote:
> >
> > Paul Heslop wrote:
> > >
> > > elag wrote:
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Ah, I referred more to the art. I often watch them just for the
> > > > > pictures, terrible i know but the 'acting' is so awful!
> > > >
> > > > Yes, I watch a lot of them almost purely for the art, but I do prefer a
> > > > good balance of elements. The reading of the anime translators does
> > > > often leave much to be desired... kind of like phonetic readings with no
> > > > idea of the content. Sometimes though this gives them a strange dreamy feeling.
> > >
> > > My son and I often have hysterics at the speed they read at, and the
> > > frequent inane grins females have to wear.
> >
> > They have to read at a pace that matches the length of time in which the
> > lips move... they certainly can't match the finesse of the dubbers at
> > Cinecitta in Italy... until recentl times all movies in Italy used sound
> > recorded in the studio.
> >
> Well, at this moment they could outread me if they were wearing
> blindfolds. I have the dreaded black edge on my sight, which means
> oncoming Migraine!
Sorry to hear it... I'm not a regular migraine sufferer but I've had the
occasional attack and I know how debilatating they can be.
I find the visual effects somewhat interesting. Once I saw a pulsating
electric checkerboard in my peripheral vision w/o knowing what it was.
For a little while I thought I was having a stroke or developing a brain tumor.
Still it was an amazing effect, like being trapped in one of those
Cinematic POV shots where the hero has been drugged.
> > > I need to know more about Max... I'll have to see if there's a biog for
> > > him.
> >
> > Here's a lot of the most basic info:
> >
> > http://www.bfi.org.uk/sightandsound/archive/innovators/fleischer.html
>
> Again, I'll have to wait now until the eyes are ready for it... beddy
> byes for Paul at 4am!
Dream of talking dogs and electric sheep.
Paul Heslop
Well, I get everything from zigzags to blind spots, have had them since
I was little. The black edge thing is disquieting as I can't always spot
it then I suddenly realise I am looking through holes cut in cardboard.
That's normally a sign that it's too late for pills and sleep is the
ONLY answer.
>
> > > > I need to know more about Max... I'll have to see if there's a biog for
> > > > him.
> > >
> > > Here's a lot of the most basic info:
> > >
> > > http://www.bfi.org.uk/sightandsound/archive/innovators/fleischer.html
> >
> > Again, I'll have to wait now until the eyes are ready for it... beddy
> > byes for Paul at 4am!
>
> Dream of talking dogs and electric sheep.
Heh, it is to dream of animation! I'm not sure I've ever done that.
elag
...sounds like an internal mask...
You know, there's a fair amount of migraine related art out there....
like:
http://health.discovery.com/convergence/headaches/migraineart/migraineart.html
and:
http://www.migraines.org/about/abouawar.htm
enjoy...
> >
> > > > > I need to know more about Max... I'll have to see if there's a biog for
> > > > > him.
> > > >
> > > > Here's a lot of the most basic info:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.bfi.org.uk/sightandsound/archive/innovators/fleischer.html
> > >
> > > Again, I'll have to wait now until the eyes are ready for it... beddy
> > > byes for Paul at 4am!
> >
> > Dream of talking dogs and electric sheep.
>
> Heh, it is to dream of animation! I'm not sure I've ever done that.
I bet you have.... noone remembers all of their dreams even though we
all dream... when we try to remember them they change their shape to fit
the waking world.... describing a dream is like trying to catch greased
lighning... but it can be fun.
JBE...@nyc.rr.com
Paul Heslop
The Richard Benbrook one is pretty close.
>
> and:
>
> http://www.migraines.org/about/abouawar.htm
As is Vincent's Stary Night! I never saw that picture before. Strange,
all those years of Don Mclean and I've only just seen the thing! Thank
you
>
> enjoy...
I did :O)
> >
> > Heh, it is to dream of animation! I'm not sure I've ever done that.
>
> I bet you have.... noone remembers all of their dreams even though we
> all dream... when we try to remember them they change their shape to fit
> the waking world.... describing a dream is like trying to catch greased
> lighning... but it can be fun.
The falling dreams are the worst, and ones where, for some reason I can
kind of throw myself at the ground and miss. This happens in many
dreams, I am able to stay airborne simply by being it. I have also been
shot and felt pain, which i was always given to understand shouldn't
happen.
JBE...@nyc.rr.com
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/11/1118_vaticanswiss.html
elag
That's a very funny take. I'm keen on the Victoria Branch entry.
> >
> > and:
> >
> > http://www.migraines.org/about/abouawar.htm
>
> As is Vincent's Stary Night! I never saw that picture before. Strange,
> all those years of Don Mclean and I've only just seen the thing! Thank
> you
I'm glad you've seen it now... it is an extremely potent image.
...
> > > Heh, it is to dream of animation! I'm not sure I've ever done that.
> >
> > I bet you have.... noone remembers all of their dreams even though we
> > all dream... when we try to remember them they change their shape to fit
> > the waking world.... describing a dream is like trying to catch greased
> > lighning... but it can be fun.
>
> The falling dreams are the worst, and ones where, for some reason I can
> kind of throw myself at the ground and miss. This happens in many
> dreams, I am able to stay airborne simply by being it. I have also been
> shot and felt pain, which i was always given to understand shouldn't
> happen.
I suppose that the idea was that past a certain threshold it would wake
you. I don't believe the old wives tale that dying in a dream leads to
actual death.
Dreams are all about dissolving limitations.
Paul Heslop
> > > http://health.discovery.com/convergence/headaches/migraineart/migraineart.html
> >
> > The Richard Benbrook one is pretty close.
>
> That's a very funny take. I'm keen on the Victoria Branch entry.
I was looking for the jagged and jolty feeling I often get
>
> > >
> > > and:
> > >
> > > http://www.migraines.org/about/abouawar.htm
> >
> > As is Vincent's Stary Night! I never saw that picture before. Strange,
> > all those years of Don Mclean and I've only just seen the thing! Thank
> > you
>
> I'm glad you've seen it now... it is an extremely potent image.
Yep, can't believe I'm nearly 50 and have only just seen this thing,
specially as I have poured over art since I was a kid.
> > The falling dreams are the worst, and ones where, for some reason I can
> > kind of throw myself at the ground and miss. This happens in many
> > dreams, I am able to stay airborne simply by being it. I have also been
> > shot and felt pain, which i was always given to understand shouldn't
> > happen.
>
> I suppose that the idea was that past a certain threshold it would wake
> you. I don't believe the old wives tale that dying in a dream leads to
> actual death.
>
> Dreams are all about dissolving limitations.
I must admit there are times when I've woken and wondered, just for a
second, whether the injuries etc were real. I also have this one stuck
in my mind since i was about twelve. I used to play a game in the bath,
caking soap on my hands and pretending they were gloves and as the soap
dried and crackled it must have stuck in my mind for one night I dreamed
I was wearing leather gloves which started to crack across the palm. For
whatever reason I started poking at the cracks, which of course widened,
but that's when I discovered it was actually my hand which was cracking,
the skin splitting open to reveal a hollow darkness with just the
skeleton. I persisted in my digging until eventually I had laid bare my
whole arm, and at this point one of the bones was stolen by a dog (yeah,
too many comics!) which I chased and chased but never caught.
--
Paul. (why don't you call me I feel like flying in two)
JBE...@nyc.rr.com
elag
>
> elag wrote:
>
> > > > http://health.discovery.com/convergence/headaches/migraineart/migraineart.html
> > >
> > > The Richard Benbrook one is pretty close.
> >
> > That's a very funny take. I'm keen on the Victoria Branch entry.
>
> I was looking for the jagged and jolty feeling I often get
> >
> > > >
> > > > and:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.migraines.org/about/abouawar.htm
> > >
> > > As is Vincent's Stary Night! I never saw that picture before. Strange,
> > > all those years of Don Mclean and I've only just seen the thing! Thank
> > > you
> >
> > I'm glad you've seen it now... it is an extremely potent image.
>
> Yep, can't believe I'm nearly 50 and have only just seen this thing,
> specially as I have poured over art since I was a kid.
As punishment you will go directly to
http://www.vangoghgallery.com/
to look at some paintings.
You will not pass go.
You will not collect 200 pounds sterling.
>
> > > The falling dreams are the worst, and ones where, for some reason I can
> > > kind of throw myself at the ground and miss. This happens in many
> > > dreams, I am able to stay airborne simply by being it. I have also been
> > > shot and felt pain, which i was always given to understand shouldn't
> > > happen.
> >
> > I suppose that the idea was that past a certain threshold it would wake
> > you. I don't believe the old wives tale that dying in a dream leads to
> > actual death.
> >
> > Dreams are all about dissolving limitations.
>
> I must admit there are times when I've woken and wondered, just for a
> second, whether the injuries etc were real.
This kind of thing is fairly common. It happens to me quite often as my
waking state is usually very similar to sleepwalking.
> I also have this one stuck
> in my mind since i was about twelve. I used to play a game in the bath,
> caking soap on my hands and pretending they were gloves and as the soap
> dried and crackled it must have stuck in my mind for one night I dreamed
> I was wearing leather gloves which started to crack across the palm. For
> whatever reason I started poking at the cracks, which of course widened,
> but that's when I discovered it was actually my hand which was cracking,
> the skin splitting open to reveal a hollow darkness with just the
> skeleton. I persisted in my digging until eventually I had laid bare my
> whole arm, and at this point one of the bones was stolen by a dog (yeah,
> too many comics!) which I chased and chased but never caught.
A textbook combination of fear of death & decay and Disney's "The
Skeleton Dance" (1929).
Caution... do not watch cartoons for 1 hour prior to bedtime!
...and no Welsh Rarebit!
Paul Heslop
> > > I'm glad you've seen it now... it is an extremely potent image.
> >
> > Yep, can't believe I'm nearly 50 and have only just seen this thing,
> > specially as I have poured over art since I was a kid.
>
> As punishment you will go directly to
>
> http://www.vangoghgallery.com/
>
> to look at some paintings.
>
> You will not pass go.
> You will not collect 200 pounds sterling.
:O) Seeing it in colour it felt familiar, until I realised that's what
everything looked like in my teen years!
> > > Dreams are all about dissolving limitations.
> >
> > I must admit there are times when I've woken and wondered, just for a
> > second, whether the injuries etc were real.
>
> This kind of thing is fairly common. It happens to me quite often as my
> waking state is usually very similar to sleepwalking.
Oh yeah. Right now I am virtually sleep typing. Much of the time I am
unsure whether I am exhausted or ill. It is part of my problem, sleep
pattern totally destroyed. At least when I was on Seroxat I got some
pretty wild dreams! :O)
>
> > I also have this one stuck
> > in my mind since i was about twelve. I used to play a game in the bath,
> > caking soap on my hands and pretending they were gloves and as the soap
> > dried and crackled it must have stuck in my mind for one night I dreamed
> > I was wearing leather gloves which started to crack across the palm. For
> > whatever reason I started poking at the cracks, which of course widened,
> > but that's when I discovered it was actually my hand which was cracking,
> > the skin splitting open to reveal a hollow darkness with just the
> > skeleton. I persisted in my digging until eventually I had laid bare my
> > whole arm, and at this point one of the bones was stolen by a dog (yeah,
> > too many comics!) which I chased and chased but never caught.
>
> A textbook combination of fear of death & decay and Disney's "The
> Skeleton Dance" (1929).
>
> Caution... do not watch cartoons for 1 hour prior to bedtime!
>
> ...and no Welsh Rarebit!
Why do they call it that? It just never made any sense to me, and if
Americans call it that then it must be contagious. Do you reckon the
Welsh invented it and just couldn't think of a decent name for cheese on
toast?
elag
>
> elag wrote:
>
>
> > > > Dreams are all about dissolving limitations.
> > >
> > > I must admit there are times when I've woken and wondered, just for a
> > > second, whether the injuries etc were real.
> >
> > This kind of thing is fairly common. It happens to me quite often as my
> > waking state is usually very similar to sleepwalking.
>
> Oh yeah. Right now I am virtually sleep typing. Much of the time I am
> unsure whether I am exhausted or ill. It is part of my problem, sleep
> pattern totally destroyed.
Although I have some problem w/ insomnia I was talking about more of a
permanent daydream.
At least when I was on Seroxat I got some
> pretty wild dreams! :O)
Hmmm... heavy stuff.... have you seen this article?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/2310197.stm
>
> >
> > > I also have this one stuck
> > > in my mind since i was about twelve. I used to play a game in the bath,
> > > caking soap on my hands and pretending they were gloves and as the soap
> > > dried and crackled it must have stuck in my mind for one night I dreamed
> > > I was wearing leather gloves which started to crack across the palm. For
> > > whatever reason I started poking at the cracks, which of course widened,
> > > but that's when I discovered it was actually my hand which was cracking,
> > > the skin splitting open to reveal a hollow darkness with just the
> > > skeleton. I persisted in my digging until eventually I had laid bare my
> > > whole arm, and at this point one of the bones was stolen by a dog (yeah,
> > > too many comics!) which I chased and chased but never caught.
> >
> > A textbook combination of fear of death & decay and Disney's "The
> > Skeleton Dance" (1929).
> >
> > Caution... do not watch cartoons for 1 hour prior to bedtime!
> >
> > ...and no Welsh Rarebit!
>
> Why do they call it that?
I'm not sure of the derivation... I've even heard it called Welsh
Rabbit... I mainly like to bandy the term about because of the reference
to Winsor McCay's cartoon "Dreams of the Rarebit Fiend"
http://store.doverpublications.com/0486213471.html
the precursor to "Little Nemo in Slumberland"
> It just never made any sense to me, and if
> Americans call it that then it must be contagious.
Well, anyway here's a version of its origin:
"Those names are actually a joke of sorts, meant as 18th-century social
commentary. As a pointed hint that the Welsh
couldn't afford meat, the English called a new dish of melted cheese and
toast Welsh Rabbit.
'The alternate spelling, Welsh Rarebit, developed later and is
imitative,' Ms. Stevens writes. 'If a Welshman had some
cheese, it would be a 'rare bit' indeed.'"
> Do you reckon the Welsh invented it and just couldn't think of a decent name
> for cheese on toast?
As you see, we can put the blame on ol' John Bull...
Paul Heslop
> > Oh yeah. Right now I am virtually sleep typing. Much of the time I am
> > unsure whether I am exhausted or ill. It is part of my problem, sleep
> > pattern totally destroyed.
>
> Although I have some problem w/ insomnia I was talking about more of a
> permanent daydream.
Life is just like that, isn't it. Yesterday I was sat in the rail
station and a couple were stood nearby with their little dog and I
looked at it and thought "This can't be real." just for a second it all
took on this surreal tinge and I realised how stupid it was that one
creature is standing there clothed in all sorts of weird fibers with
another naked creature on a tether waiting to get onto a mobile box. It
only lasted a few seconds but shook me a little.
>
> At least when I was on Seroxat I got some
> > pretty wild dreams! :O)
>
> Hmmm... heavy stuff.... have you seen this article?
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/2310197.stm
Yeah, I thought I mentioned how ill i was at the time? Suicidal urges,
temper was disgusting, broke my knuckles on a door etc etc. They took me
off them simply by saying they were worried I was becoming addicted. I'm
now on nothing, and I am certainly not as violent.
>
> > > ...and no Welsh Rarebit!
> >
> > Why do they call it that?
>
> I'm not sure of the derivation... I've even heard it called Welsh
> Rabbit... I mainly like to bandy the term about because of the reference
> to Winsor McCay's cartoon "Dreams of the Rarebit Fiend"
>
> http://store.doverpublications.com/0486213471.html
>
> the precursor to "Little Nemo in Slumberland"
:O) Ah, little Nemo. Did you see the modern and tragically ungood
version?
>
> > It just never made any sense to me, and if
> > Americans call it that then it must be contagious.
>
> Well, anyway here's a version of its origin:
>
> "Those names are actually a joke of sorts, meant as 18th-century social
> commentary. As a pointed hint that the Welsh
> couldn't afford meat, the English called a new dish of melted cheese and
> toast Welsh Rabbit.
:O) Now THAT makes sense. We are an evil people when it comes to the
welsh.
>
> 'The alternate spelling, Welsh Rarebit, developed later and is
> imitative,' Ms. Stevens writes. 'If a Welshman had some
> cheese, it would be a 'rare bit' indeed.'"
:O)
>
> > Do you reckon the Welsh invented it and just couldn't think of a decent name
> > for cheese on toast?
>
> As you see, we can put the blame on ol' John Bull...
And he was so full of it! :O)
elag
>
> elag wrote:
>
> > > Oh yeah. Right now I am virtually sleep typing. Much of the time I am
> > > unsure whether I am exhausted or ill. It is part of my problem, sleep
> > > pattern totally destroyed.
> >
> > Although I have some problem w/ insomnia I was talking about more of a
> > permanent daydream.
>
> Life is just like that, isn't it. Yesterday I was sat in the rail
> station and a couple were stood nearby with their little dog and I
> looked at it and thought "This can't be real." just for a second it all
> took on this surreal tinge and I realised how stupid it was that one
> creature is standing there clothed in all sorts of weird fibers with
> another naked creature on a tether waiting to get onto a mobile box. It
> only lasted a few seconds but shook me a little.
Yes I love those moments... poetic moment when reality seems to turn
inside out... when the myths and filters dissolve and the imagination is
allowed free play. That is what Surrealism was about...
like today when I saw false hobos pretending to live in boxes, mummified
manhole covers... and two real Argentinians in a box gave me food.
Point Of View can shift at any time
>
> >
> > At least when I was on Seroxat I got some
> > > pretty wild dreams! :O)
> >
> > Hmmm... heavy stuff.... have you seen this article?
> >
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/2310197.stm
>
> Yeah, I thought I mentioned how ill i was at the time? Suicidal urges,
> temper was disgusting, broke my knuckles on a door etc etc. They took me
> off them simply by saying they were worried I was becoming addicted. I'm
> now on nothing, and I am certainly not as violent.
Just thought you'd find it interesting...
> >
>
> > > > ...and no Welsh Rarebit!
> > >
> > > Why do they call it that?
> >
> > I'm not sure of the derivation... I've even heard it called Welsh
> > Rabbit... I mainly like to bandy the term about because of the reference
> > to Winsor McCay's cartoon "Dreams of the Rarebit Fiend"
> >
> > http://store.doverpublications.com/0486213471.html
> >
> > the precursor to "Little Nemo in Slumberland"
>
> :O) Ah, little Nemo. Did you see the modern and tragically ungood
> version?
No that was the sort of thing I well know to avoid... I'll stick to the
orig. reprints. Today I was watching some of Winsor's animations
(Gertie the Dinosaur & Centaurs)... he must have had some case of Carpal
Tunnel Syndrome...
...
> > > Do you reckon the Welsh invented it and just couldn't think of a decent name
> > > for cheese on toast?
> >
> > As you see, we can put the blame on ol' John Bull...
>
> And he was so full of it! :O)
<an old song>
Johnny Bull wants cotton to feed his idle mills,
In consequence he threatens us with all sorts of ills,
Just let him try and live without our grain if he can,
For corn is king o'er cotton now, or "any other man."
Our wheat, corn and flour with Johnny we have shared,
But if he wants to quarrel now, he'll find us well prepared;
Don't jump into the fire, Bull, but keep within the pan,
For Uncle Sam's a match for you, or "any other man."
Now Johnny Bull's complaining of Uncle Sam's stone fleet,
And says, to make the best of it, 'tis but a shabby feat.
If he don't like the thing, just let him raise it if he can,
He'll find it can't be done by him, or "any other man."
Paul Heslop
> > Life is just like that, isn't it. Yesterday I was sat in the rail
> > station and a couple were stood nearby with their little dog and I
> > looked at it and thought "This can't be real." just for a second it all
> > took on this surreal tinge and I realised how stupid it was that one
> > creature is standing there clothed in all sorts of weird fibers with
> > another naked creature on a tether waiting to get onto a mobile box. It
> > only lasted a few seconds but shook me a little.
>
> Yes I love those moments... poetic moment when reality seems to turn
> inside out... when the myths and filters dissolve and the imagination is
> allowed free play. That is what Surrealism was about...
>
> like today when I saw false hobos pretending to live in boxes, mummified
> manhole covers... and two real Argentinians in a box gave me food.
>
> Point Of View can shift at any time
Wow, yes, and what were you doing exactly?
> > Yeah, I thought I mentioned how ill i was at the time? Suicidal urges,
> > temper was disgusting, broke my knuckles on a door etc etc. They took me
> > off them simply by saying they were worried I was becoming addicted. I'm
> > now on nothing, and I am certainly not as violent.
>
> Just thought you'd find it interesting...
and it was. What really pisses me off was I was assured by the guy who
put me on them that they were safe. They had given me the old Prozac
which made me feel so cold and awful and they switched me to seroxat,
with big bundles of reassurances. I would go in and say I was a bit
worried as I was getting this and that urge or feeling even more
depressed and they never once gave it away.
> > > http://store.doverpublications.com/0486213471.html
> > >
> > > the precursor to "Little Nemo in Slumberland"
> >
> > :O) Ah, little Nemo. Did you see the modern and tragically ungood
> > version?
>
> No that was the sort of thing I well know to avoid... I'll stick to the
> orig. reprints. Today I was watching some of Winsor's animations
> (Gertie the Dinosaur & Centaurs)... he must have had some case of Carpal
> Tunnel Syndrome...
>
:O) Yeah I recall those. I always watch out for the History of Animation
specials. Funnily enough these sort of shows don't seem to get the
airplay anymore.
> > > As you see, we can put the blame on ol' John Bull...
> >
> > And he was so full of it! :O)
>
> <an old song>
> Johnny Bull wants cotton to feed his idle mills,
> In consequence he threatens us with all sorts of ills,
> Just let him try and live without our grain if he can,
> For corn is king o'er cotton now, or "any other man."
>
> Our wheat, corn and flour with Johnny we have shared,
> But if he wants to quarrel now, he'll find us well prepared;
> Don't jump into the fire, Bull, but keep within the pan,
> For Uncle Sam's a match for you, or "any other man."
>
> Now Johnny Bull's complaining of Uncle Sam's stone fleet,
> And says, to make the best of it, 'tis but a shabby feat.
> If he don't like the thing, just let him raise it if he can,
> He'll find it can't be done by him, or "any other man."
:O) Isn't it funny that a country kind of born by revolution seems so
dead set against them?
--
Paul. (Step off the train all alone at dawn)
elag
>
> elag wrote:
>
> > > Life is just like that, isn't it. Yesterday I was sat in the rail
> > > station and a couple were stood nearby with their little dog and I
> > > looked at it and thought "This can't be real." just for a second it all
> > > took on this surreal tinge and I realised how stupid it was that one
> > > creature is standing there clothed in all sorts of weird fibers with
> > > another naked creature on a tether waiting to get onto a mobile box. It
> > > only lasted a few seconds but shook me a little.
> >
> > Yes I love those moments... poetic moment when reality seems to turn
> > inside out... when the myths and filters dissolve and the imagination is
> > allowed free play. That is what Surrealism was about...
> >
> > like today when I saw false hobos pretending to live in boxes, mummified
> > manhole covers... and two real Argentinians in a box gave me food.
> >
> > Point Of View can shift at any time
>
> Wow, yes, and what were you doing exactly?
I walked past a film location consisting of a fake homeless camp set up
outside St. Mark's Church (1799)... walked over steel manhole covers
coated (intentionally, by the city, I suppose) with some sort of light
yellow-grey plastic and bought empanadas from a food cart (the kind in
which people can stand/work but which can't move under its own power).
These could be seen as rather mundane events... it's all in how you look
at it.
A poetic vision is critical.
....
> > > >
> > > > the precursor to "Little Nemo in Slumberland"
> > >
> > > :O) Ah, little Nemo. Did you see the modern and tragically ungood
> > > version?
> >
> > No that was the sort of thing I well know to avoid... I'll stick to the
> > orig. reprints. Today I was watching some of Winsor's animations
> > (Gertie the Dinosaur & Centaurs)... he must have had some case of Carpal
> > Tunnel Syndrome...
> >
> :O) Yeah I recall those. I always watch out for the History of Animation
> specials. Funnily enough these sort of shows don't seem to get the
> airplay anymore.
Yes, they seem to be disappearing from Cartoon Network as well... they
appear to have stopped showing "Late Night Black & White"... just when I
was really getting into the really old toons... I managed to pick up
loads at the Library which ought to keep me happy for awhile.
> > > > As you see, we can put the blame on ol' John Bull...
> > >
> > > And he was so full of it! :O)
> >
> > <an old song>
> > Johnny Bull wants cotton to feed his idle mills,
> > In consequence he threatens us with all sorts of ills,
> > Just let him try and live without our grain if he can,
> > For corn is king o'er cotton now, or "any other man."
> >
> > Our wheat, corn and flour with Johnny we have shared,
> > But if he wants to quarrel now, he'll find us well prepared;
> > Don't jump into the fire, Bull, but keep within the pan,
> > For Uncle Sam's a match for you, or "any other man."
> >
> > Now Johnny Bull's complaining of Uncle Sam's stone fleet,
> > And says, to make the best of it, 'tis but a shabby feat.
> > If he don't like the thing, just let him raise it if he can,
> > He'll find it can't be done by him, or "any other man."
>
> :O) Isn't it funny that a country kind of born by revolution seems so
> dead set against them?
It's what happens when revolutionaries are exchanged for politicians and
especially bureaucrats only interested in their own asses and the
welfare of the Big Contributors. Change scares them because they are
awfully comfortable.
Paul Heslop
> > > Point Of View can shift at any time
> >
> > Wow, yes, and what were you doing exactly?
>
> I walked past a film location consisting of a fake homeless camp set up
> outside St. Mark's Church (1799)... walked over steel manhole covers
> coated (intentionally, by the city, I suppose) with some sort of light
> yellow-grey plastic and bought empanadas from a food cart (the kind in
> which people can stand/work but which can't move under its own power).
>
> These could be seen as rather mundane events... it's all in how you look
> at it.
>
> A poetic vision is critical.
I kind of like the fact that you have a building which is that old
nearby.
> > :O) Yeah I recall those. I always watch out for the History of Animation
> > specials. Funnily enough these sort of shows don't seem to get the
> > airplay anymore.
>
> Yes, they seem to be disappearing from Cartoon Network as well... they
> appear to have stopped showing "Late Night Black & White"... just when I
> was really getting into the really old toons... I managed to pick up
> loads at the Library which ought to keep me happy for awhile.
I didn't even know they did the B & W on cartoon network... i wonder if
ours is a euro version?
> > :O) Isn't it funny that a country kind of born by revolution seems so
> > dead set against them?
>
> It's what happens when revolutionaries are exchanged for politicians and
> especially bureaucrats only interested in their own asses and the
> welfare of the Big Contributors. Change scares them because they are
> awfully comfortable.
Sounds like New Labour.
--
Paul. (Smilin' with the mouth of the ocean)
elag
>
> elag wrote:
>
> > > > Point Of View can shift at any time
> > >
> > > Wow, yes, and what were you doing exactly?
> >
> > I walked past a film location consisting of a fake homeless camp set up
> > outside St. Mark's Church (1799)... walked over steel manhole covers
> > coated (intentionally, by the city, I suppose) with some sort of light
> > yellow-grey plastic and bought empanadas from a food cart (the kind in
> > which people can stand/work but which can't move under its own power).
> >
> > These could be seen as rather mundane events... it's all in how you look
> > at it.
> >
> > A poetic vision is critical.
>
> I kind of like the fact that you have a building which is that old
> nearby.
Yes, I wanted to live on this block because it's a historic district
lines w/ 1850's Italianate buildings and lush trees. The famous
architect Stanford White (old Penn Station, Public Library, General Post Office).
St. Mark's is one of the oldest intact buildings in NY. I know that by
English standards it is but a youth but in NY History is mostly Hamburger.
look:
http://www.saintmarkschurch.org/
>
> > > :O) Yeah I recall those. I always watch out for the History of Animation
> > > specials. Funnily enough these sort of shows don't seem to get the
> > > airplay anymore.
> >
> > Yes, they seem to be disappearing from Cartoon Network as well... they
> > appear to have stopped showing "Late Night Black & White"... just when I
> > was really getting into the really old toons... I managed to pick up
> > loads at the Library which ought to keep me happy for awhile.
>
> I didn't even know they did the B & W on cartoon network... i wonder if
> ours is a euro version?
probably but the programming is likely substantially similar...
>
> > > :O) Isn't it funny that a country kind of born by revolution seems so
> > > dead set against them?
> >
> > It's what happens when revolutionaries are exchanged for politicians and
> > especially bureaucrats only interested in their own asses and the
> > welfare of the Big Contributors. Change scares them because they are
> > awfully comfortable.
>
> Sounds like New Labour.
They moved so far to the left that they came back around to the right again....
Paul Heslop
>
> Paul Heslop wrote:
> >
> > elag wrote:
> >
> > > > > Point Of View can shift at any time
> > > >
> > > > Wow, yes, and what were you doing exactly?
> > >
> > > I walked past a film location consisting of a fake homeless camp set up
> > > outside St. Mark's Church (1799)... walked over steel manhole covers
> > > coated (intentionally, by the city, I suppose) with some sort of light
> > > yellow-grey plastic and bought empanadas from a food cart (the kind in
> > > which people can stand/work but which can't move under its own power).
> > >
> > > These could be seen as rather mundane events... it's all in how you look
> > > at it.
> > >
> > > A poetic vision is critical.
> >
> > I kind of like the fact that you have a building which is that old
> > nearby.
>
> Yes, I wanted to live on this block because it's a historic district
> lines w/ 1850's Italianate buildings and lush trees. The famous
> architect Stanford White (old Penn Station, Public Library, General Post Office).
>
> St. Mark's is one of the oldest intact buildings in NY. I know that by
> English standards it is but a youth but in NY History is mostly Hamburger.
>
> look:
>
> http://www.poetryproject.com/
>
> http://www.saintmarkschurch.org/
>
supposed to be our oldest Church in this region, though like many of
these things it has been built etc over and over. often the sites
themselves are the true awe inspiring age
http://www.ejr.ndo.co.uk/andrews.html
elag
Well, St. Mark's has been repaired and changed over the years. The
steeple and cast Iron portico date from the early 19th century. Also,
there was a bad fire in 1978, unfortunately after a major restoration.
It's a good thing it was mostly built from fieldstones.
Even though I'm irreligious I like the historic atmosphere there... its
place in the artistic history of the East Village also gives it a
pleasant aura.
This is
> supposed to be our oldest Church in this region, though like many of
> these things it has been built etc over and over. often the sites
> themselves are the true awe inspiring age
> http://www.ejr.ndo.co.uk/andrews.html
I often like to hang around these places for they facilitate my time travelling.
I like to walk through certain historic neighborhoods at night and
attempt to slip through the cracks of time. Often there is a fleeting
sense of an altered reality, when the streets are empty, and you stand
in the lght of a gas lamp, and you can image that you've really reversed
the flow of the irreversible.
Paul Heslop
Sounds that way. We have an advantage in huge fires are rare nowadays
and we don't have lots of wooden structures. I guess the damp would
destroy them. We do have big fires though, and destruction can be
terrible.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/20/newsid_2551000/2551107.stm
and York Minster... the lower pictures show the fire itself
http://wwwmcc.murdoch.edu.au/ReadingRoom/6.2/McHoul.html
>
> Even though I'm irreligious I like the historic atmosphere there... its
> place in the artistic history of the East Village also gives it a
> pleasant aura.
Yeah, I can't lay claim to any gods, but some places just need to be
seen.
>
> This is
> > supposed to be our oldest Church in this region, though like many of
> > these things it has been built etc over and over. often the sites
> > themselves are the true awe inspiring age
> > http://www.ejr.ndo.co.uk/andrews.html
>
> I often like to hang around these places for they facilitate my time travelling.
>
> I like to walk through certain historic neighborhoods at night and
> attempt to slip through the cracks of time. Often there is a fleeting
> sense of an altered reality, when the streets are empty, and you stand
> in the lght of a gas lamp, and you can image that you've really reversed
> the flow of the irreversible.
Wow. That's the thing, isn't it... time travel. Even my wife thought I
was more than a little crazy when I was in the Keep (the castle I showed
you pics of) and in the very lowest floor I just put my hands on the
stone and stood for a while and sensed the age of the place, the time
which had flown and the people who had been there before. I don't claim
any psychic ability, there's just a feel for the old... ah, it amazes me
how some claim not to feel anything for history when confronted with
such things.
elag
Yes, everyone remembers that one... the Annus Horribilis and all that.
>
> and York Minster... the lower pictures show the fire itself
> http://wwwmcc.murdoch.edu.au/ReadingRoom/6.2/McHoul.html
I must say that the 1st fire picture is very beautiful.
>
> >
> > Even though I'm irreligious I like the historic atmosphere there... its
> > place in the artistic history of the East Village also gives it a
> > pleasant aura.
>
> Yeah, I can't lay claim to any gods, but some places just need to be
> seen.
> >
> > This is
> > > supposed to be our oldest Church in this region, though like many of
> > > these things it has been built etc over and over. often the sites
> > > themselves are the true awe inspiring age
> > > http://www.ejr.ndo.co.uk/andrews.html
> >
> > I often like to hang around these places for they facilitate my time travelling.
> >
> > I like to walk through certain historic neighborhoods at night and
> > attempt to slip through the cracks of time. Often there is a fleeting
> > sense of an altered reality, when the streets are empty, and you stand
> > in the lght of a gas lamp, and you can image that you've really reversed
> > the flow of the irreversible.
>
> Wow. That's the thing, isn't it... time travel. Even my wife thought I
> was more than a little crazy when I was in the Keep (the castle I showed
> you pics of) and in the very lowest floor I just put my hands on the
> stone and stood for a while and sensed the age of the place, the time
> which had flown and the people who had been there before. I don't claim
> any psychic ability, there's just a feel for the old...
I don't believe in psychic abilities, but there is a psychological power
in the concrete quality of objects, which benefit the imagination.
Actually being in a place, touching it, smelling it, acts as a catalyst
for flights of fantasy which might otherwise remain on the ground.
Paul Heslop
>
> > Wow. That's the thing, isn't it... time travel. Even my wife thought I
> > was more than a little crazy when I was in the Keep (the castle I showed
> > you pics of) and in the very lowest floor I just put my hands on the
> > stone and stood for a while and sensed the age of the place, the time
> > which had flown and the people who had been there before. I don't claim
> > any psychic ability, there's just a feel for the old...
>
> I don't believe in psychic abilities, but there is a psychological power
> in the concrete quality of objects, which benefit the imagination.
> Actually being in a place, touching it, smelling it, acts as a catalyst
> for flights of fantasy which might otherwise remain on the ground.
'Concrete' is such an ugly word! :O) Speaking of concrete, there's a
piece up here, dates from the 60s (can't recall exactly where it is so
it's hard to show a photo) but basically it's a lot of concrete which
vaguely resembles a disjointed multistory car park on a small scale,
standing in a pond. They're trying to decide what should be done with it
and many people want it to be destroyed as it's ugly. But would it be
right to destroy a piece of art because it's ugly? (It really IS ugly!)
Paul Heslop
> 'Concrete' is such an ugly word! :O) Speaking of concrete, there's a
> piece up here, dates from the 60s (can't recall exactly where it is so
> it's hard to show a photo) but basically it's a lot of concrete which
> vaguely resembles a disjointed multistory car park on a small scale,
> standing in a pond. They're trying to decide what should be done with it
> and many people want it to be destroyed as it's ugly. But would it be
> right to destroy a piece of art because it's ugly? (It really IS ugly!)
> --
Going to add this here and see what happens
http://groups.msn.com/OtherSides/pavilion.msnw
elag
>
> elag wrote:
> >
>
> > > Wow. That's the thing, isn't it... time travel. Even my wife thought I
> > > was more than a little crazy when I was in the Keep (the castle I showed
> > > you pics of) and in the very lowest floor I just put my hands on the
> > > stone and stood for a while and sensed the age of the place, the time
> > > which had flown and the people who had been there before. I don't claim
> > > any psychic ability, there's just a feel for the old...
> >
> > I don't believe in psychic abilities, but there is a psychological power
> > in the concrete quality of objects, which benefit the imagination.
> > Actually being in a place, touching it, smelling it, acts as a catalyst
> > for flights of fantasy which might otherwise remain on the ground.
>
> 'Concrete' is such an ugly word! :O) Speaking of concrete, there's a
> piece up here, dates from the 60s (can't recall exactly where it is so
> it's hard to show a photo) but basically it's a lot of concrete which
> vaguely resembles a disjointed multistory car park on a small scale,
> standing in a pond. They're trying to decide what should be done with it
> and many people want it to be destroyed as it's ugly. But would it be
> right to destroy a piece of art because it's ugly? (It really IS ugly!)
Ugly is purely subjective... if everything that someone thought was ugly
was wiped from the face of the earth it would be ugly everywhere... but
I'd have to see it to decide for meself.
Paul Heslop
:O) You've seen it now. I'm a bit weird on modern art. Stuff like a row
of firebricks is NOT art as far as I am concerned. As for Tracey Emin
and her bed... ach!
elag
Let us just say... each to their own taste.
Paul Heslop
>
> Let us just say... each to their own taste.
Oh yes, everyone has a right to like what they like. But what about when
nobody (barring the artist and their friends/patrons) considers a work
of 'art' to be absolutely shite? Like the first time Hirst cut a cow in
half was a statement and at least half interesting. He has become boring
and full of self import.
--
Paul. (Pack it up, pack it in Let me begin)
elag
>
> elag wrote:
>
> >
> > Let us just say... each to their own taste.
>
> Oh yes, everyone has a right to like what they like. But what about when
> nobody (barring the artist and their friends/patrons) considers a work
> of 'art' to be absolutely shite?
I would say that even if zee artiste thinks the work belongs in the
dustbin I might still see something in it. In some cases it takes two
to make a work of art... someone to make it and someone to hit them over
the head before they over work it.
A few literary masterpieces have been only narrowly saved from the the
fire grate. Emily Dickinson had to be forced to publish a handful of
poems and 99% lay hidden for years after her death.
Van Gogh, for example, died a "failure" who painted funny shit.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
> Like the first time Hirst cut a cow in
> half was a statement and at least half interesting.
Yes, I've seen it and as an experience it is worthwhile if not
traditionally beautiful. I can appreciate that sometimes the concept
has more weight that the execution.
> He has become boring
> and full of self import.
The "ART World" is surely full of a number of traps... conforming to
expectations and repeating patterns... or reacting against those
patterns but losing the interest of the "cognoscenti"...
on the other hand the same old stuff is always new to someone...
but I know you'll appreciate this foto of butcher boy:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/graphics/2002/03/30/bahirst020330.jpg
Paul Heslop
>
> Paul Heslop wrote:
> >
> > elag wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Let us just say... each to their own taste.
> >
> > Oh yes, everyone has a right to like what they like. But what about when
> > nobody (barring the artist and their friends/patrons) considers a work
> > of 'art' to be absolutely shite?
>
> I would say that even if zee artiste thinks the work belongs in the
> dustbin I might still see something in it. In some cases it takes two
> to make a work of art... someone to make it and someone to hit them over
> the head before they over work it.
>
> A few literary masterpieces have been only narrowly saved from the the
> fire grate. Emily Dickinson had to be forced to publish a handful of
> poems and 99% lay hidden for years after her death.
>
> Van Gogh, for example, died a "failure" who painted funny shit.
>
> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Oh yes, without doubt Van Goch was years ahead of his time. I think the
weird thing about public art is the reaction to the cost. "It cost
£2million? What a waste of money! They should knock it down!" oh yeah,
that would get the £2million back alright.
It does seem sometimes we are being shown how clever the 'artist' is,
rather than how good.
And why, when everybody is claiming to want to be different to
everything that has gone before, do they all turn out the same stuff? I
know that's simplistic but I can't think of many modern artists who I
would rush to an exhibit to see. The surrealists started all this and
now we have a bunch of clever tossers posing and calling it art.
>
> > Like the first time Hirst cut a cow in
> > half was a statement and at least half interesting.
>
> Yes, I've seen it and as an experience it is worthwhile if not
> traditionally beautiful. I can appreciate that sometimes the concept
> has more weight that the execution.
That one yes, but the ones after?
>
> > He has become boring
> > and full of self import.
>
> The "ART World" is surely full of a number of traps... conforming to
> expectations and repeating patterns... or reacting against those
> patterns but losing the interest of the "cognoscenti"...
They have their own patron, these guys...um, Charles Saatchi?
http://www.saatchi-gallery.co.uk/county/county.htm
>
> on the other hand the same old stuff is always new to someone...
>
> but I know you'll appreciate this foto of butcher boy:
>
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/graphics/2002/03/30/bahirst020330.jpg
Oh yeah, that's the man. I actually think they should put him and Tracey
in a case of formaldehide. I think a fair amount of people would pay to
see THAT :O)
--
Paul. (Don't believe in anything That you can't break)
elag
>
> elag wrote:
> >
> > Paul Heslop wrote:
> > >
> > > elag wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Let us just say... each to their own taste.
> > >
> > > Oh yes, everyone has a right to like what they like. But what about when
> > > nobody (barring the artist and their friends/patrons) considers a work
> > > of 'art' to be absolutely shite?
> >
> > I would say that even if zee artiste thinks the work belongs in the
> > dustbin I might still see something in it. In some cases it takes two
> > to make a work of art... someone to make it and someone to hit them over
> > the head before they over work it.
> >
> > A few literary masterpieces have been only narrowly saved from the the
> > fire grate. Emily Dickinson had to be forced to publish a handful of
> > poems and 99% lay hidden for years after her death.
> >
> > Van Gogh, for example, died a "failure" who painted funny shit.
> >
> > Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
>
> Oh yes, without doubt Van Goch was years ahead of his time. I think the
> weird thing about public art is the reaction to the cost. "It cost
> £2million? What a waste of money! They should knock it down!" oh yeah,
> that would get the £2million back alright.
What would they think if it was a bronze of the latest greatest football star?
> It does seem sometimes we are being shown how clever the 'artist' is,
> rather than how good.
That is an easy trap to fall into. All the same, I can appreciate
"clever" sometimes... I'm thinking of Duchamp, here.
> And why, when everybody is claiming to want to be different to
> everything that has gone before, do they all turn out the same stuff?
Copying Duchamp, mostly...
> I know that's simplistic but I can't think of many modern artists who I
> would rush to an exhibit to see. The surrealists started all this and
> now we have a bunch of clever tossers posing and calling it art.
I don't like it all either but I accept that once you head down the road
to modernism there is an irresistible urge to see each new idea to its
ultimate extent as well as that old human instinct towards one
upmanship. Then after a time there will always be the urge to reinvent
the wheel.
I'll always find a few things to admire and which engage my imagunation
and I'm prepared to ignore the rest... or do something better myself.
90 % of everything we see is crap... and Art is no different.
> >
> > > Like the first time Hirst cut a cow in
> > > half was a statement and at least half interesting.
> >
> > Yes, I've seen it and as an experience it is worthwhile if not
> > traditionally beautiful. I can appreciate that sometimes the concept
> > has more weight that the execution.
>
> That one yes, but the ones after?
Well, I'm willing to say enough is enough but artists never willingly
give up their private obsessions. I suppose that as long as people keep
watching he'll keep doin his ol' soft shoe... just like a little kid
who's learned a new trick.
> >
> > > He has become boring
> > > and full of self import.
> >
> > The "ART World" is surely full of a number of traps... conforming to
> > expectations and repeating patterns... or reacting against those
> > patterns but losing the interest of the "cognoscenti"...
>
> They have their own patron, these guys...um, Charles Saatchi?
> http://www.saatchi-gallery.co.uk/county/county.htm
> >
> > on the other hand the same old stuff is always new to someone...
> >
> > but I know you'll appreciate this foto of butcher boy:
> >
> > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/graphics/2002/03/30/bahirst020330.jpg
>
> Oh yeah, that's the man. I actually think they should put him and Tracey
> in a case of formaldehide. I think a fair amount of people would pay to
> see THAT :O)
That might be kind of amusing. Don't be surprised if it does come to
pass in some way shape or form one day.
¤
sumwit kowz n' sumwit duxx on Sun, 08 Jun 2003 22:41:38 -0400:
>All the same
>
you're squeaking again.
--
This is your brain:
"*"
This is your brain on USENET:
"."
Paul Heslop
> > Oh yes, without doubt Van Goch was years ahead of his time. I think the
> > weird thing about public art is the reaction to the cost. "It cost
> > £2million? What a waste of money! They should knock it down!" oh yeah,
> > that would get the £2million back alright.
>
> What would they think if it was a bronze of the latest greatest football star?
>
If it was a football star they would keep it forever. I just saw an
image last night of a wall etched in bronze somewhere in Newcastle which
has apparently disappeared... gives you an idea of how much they respect
art.
> > It does seem sometimes we are being shown how clever the 'artist' is,
> > rather than how good.
>
> That is an easy trap to fall into. All the same, I can appreciate
> "clever" sometimes... I'm thinking of Duchamp, here.
Yes, but it's all been done. Nothing these people do is worth getting
excited about, except for the tabloid press etc who get excited about
grass growing.
>
> > And why, when everybody is claiming to want to be different to
> > everything that has gone before, do they all turn out the same stuff?
>
> Copying Duchamp, mostly...
exactly... and how many years ago was he doing his thing?
>
> > I know that's simplistic but I can't think of many modern artists who I
> > would rush to an exhibit to see. The surrealists started all this and
> > now we have a bunch of clever tossers posing and calling it art.
>
> I don't like it all either but I accept that once you head down the road
> to modernism there is an irresistible urge to see each new idea to its
> ultimate extent as well as that old human instinct towards one
> upmanship. Then after a time there will always be the urge to reinvent
> the wheel.
>
Well I wish they would get on with it and stop pussyfooting around. :O)
> I'll always find a few things to admire and which engage my imagunation
> and I'm prepared to ignore the rest... or do something better myself.
>
> 90 % of everything we see is crap... and Art is no different.
>
Spot on. I do find treasures, specially in amateur photography sites
etc. There seem to be much more adventurous people out there than the
ones making the headlines.
> > > Yes, I've seen it and as an experience it is worthwhile if not
> > > traditionally beautiful. I can appreciate that sometimes the concept
> > > has more weight that the execution.
> >
> > That one yes, but the ones after?
>
> Well, I'm willing to say enough is enough but artists never willingly
> give up their private obsessions. I suppose that as long as people keep
> watching he'll keep doin his ol' soft shoe... just like a little kid
> who's learned a new trick.
>
I agree. I think the critics act with him rather as we react to a troll.
feeding his habit by pulling him to bits.
> > They have their own patron, these guys...um, Charles Saatchi?
> > http://www.saatchi-gallery.co.uk/county/county.htm
> > >
> > > on the other hand the same old stuff is always new to someone...
> > >
> > > but I know you'll appreciate this foto of butcher boy:
> > >
> > > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/graphics/2002/03/30/bahirst020330.jpg
> >
> > Oh yeah, that's the man. I actually think they should put him and Tracey
> > in a case of formaldehide. I think a fair amount of people would pay to
> > see THAT :O)
>
> That might be kind of amusing. Don't be surprised if it does come to
> pass in some way shape or form one day.
:O)
--
Paul. (I'm rhyming on the top of a cop car)
elag
>
> elag wrote:
>
> > > Oh yes, without doubt Van Goch was years ahead of his time. I think the
> > > weird thing about public art is the reaction to the cost. "It cost
> > > £2million? What a waste of money! They should knock it down!" oh yeah,
> > > that would get the £2million back alright.
> >
> > What would they think if it was a bronze of the latest greatest football star?
> >
> If it was a football star they would keep it forever.
Hmmph... figures...
> I just saw an
> image last night of a wall etched in bronze somewhere in Newcastle which
> has apparently disappeared...
You mean... they detached a bronze relief?... or have I misunderstood.
What was the image?
> gives you an idea of how much they respect art.
Art is just that stuff they use to decorate biscuit tins.
>
> > > It does seem sometimes we are being shown how clever the 'artist' is,
> > > rather than how good.
> >
> > That is an easy trap to fall into. All the same, I can appreciate
> > "clever" sometimes... I'm thinking of Duchamp, here.
>
> Yes, but it's all been done. Nothing these people do is worth getting
> excited about, except for the tabloid press etc who get excited about
> grass growing.
Hey, so do Merkin Sub-Urbanites (damn grubs!).
Grass growing at 1000x speed can be very exciting.
And then there's the cat that grows it on cars and clothing...
http://www.artcars.com/ArtCarWeekend/LewisTwo/Lewis6.html
>
> >
> > > And why, when everybody is claiming to want to be different to
> > > everything that has gone before, do they all turn out the same stuff?
> >
> > Copying Duchamp, mostly...
>
> exactly... and how many years ago was he doing his thing?
Well, until 1968 he lived a couple of block from my apt. After that he
moved to a permanent residence underground which is marked: "D'ailleurs
c'est toujours les autres qui meurent" - "But it's always other people
who die".
> > I'll always find a few things to admire and which engage my imagunation
> > and I'm prepared to ignore the rest... or do something better myself.
> >
> > 90 % of everything we see is crap... and Art is no different.
> >
> Spot on. I do find treasures, specially in amateur photography sites
> etc. There seem to be much more adventurous people out there than the
> ones making the headlines.
Sure... any famous artist might say... "there but for the grace of
stupid rich people go I".
>
> > > > Yes, I've seen it and as an experience it is worthwhile if not
> > > > traditionally beautiful. I can appreciate that sometimes the concept
> > > > has more weight that the execution.
> > >
> > > That one yes, but the ones after?
> >
> > Well, I'm willing to say enough is enough but artists never willingly
> > give up their private obsessions. I suppose that as long as people keep
> > watching he'll keep doin his ol' soft shoe... just like a little kid
> > who's learned a new trick.
> >
> I agree. I think the critics act with him rather as we react to a troll.
> feeding his habit by pulling him to bits.
As long as you realize that it is, in one aspect, a game it makes a lot
more sense and is much more amusing.
Paul Heslop
> > If it was a football star they would keep it forever.
>
> Hmmph... figures...
it's all that matters now. Today's headline news, something like second
or third item is about David Beckham when there are matters of world
peace etc at hand. they even report it when he (frequently) changes his
hairstyle!
>
> > I just saw an
> > image last night of a wall etched in bronze somewhere in Newcastle which
> > has apparently disappeared...
>
> You mean... they detached a bronze relief?... or have I misunderstood.
> What was the image?
I was looking through a local photographer's website, he takes pictures
all over the North east and is pretty up on the history of the area etc.
Personally I was living elsewhere when this occurred so I don't know
anything about it The image is pretty easy to spot once the page is
loaded, a red brick wall with the bronze at the base.
I hope you can see this link
http://steveellwood.tripod.com/photographsofnortheastofengland/id5.html
>
> > gives you an idea of how much they respect art.
>
> Art is just that stuff they use to decorate biscuit tins.
>
argh!
> >
> > > > It does seem sometimes we are being shown how clever the 'artist' is,
> > > > rather than how good.
> > >
> > > That is an easy trap to fall into. All the same, I can appreciate
> > > "clever" sometimes... I'm thinking of Duchamp, here.
> >
> > Yes, but it's all been done. Nothing these people do is worth getting
> > excited about, except for the tabloid press etc who get excited about
> > grass growing.
>
> Hey, so do Merkin Sub-Urbanites (damn grubs!).
>
> Grass growing at 1000x speed can be very exciting.
well, flowers etc yes... even clouds forming... but grass?
>
> And then there's the cat that grows it on cars and clothing...
>
> http://www.artcars.com/ArtCarWeekend/LewisTwo/Lewis6.html
I recall this... I used to be an avid reader of custom car magazines
etc.
> > > Copying Duchamp, mostly...
> >
> > exactly... and how many years ago was he doing his thing?
>
> Well, until 1968 he lived a couple of block from my apt. After that he
> moved to a permanent residence underground which is marked: "D'ailleurs
> c'est toujours les autres qui meurent" - "But it's always other people
> who die".
:O) Slowed him down a little.
> > Spot on. I do find treasures, specially in amateur photography sites
> > etc. There seem to be much more adventurous people out there than the
> > ones making the headlines.
>
> Sure... any famous artist might say... "there but for the grace of
> stupid rich people go I".
for sure
> > > Well, I'm willing to say enough is enough but artists never willingly
> > > give up their private obsessions. I suppose that as long as people keep
> > > watching he'll keep doin his ol' soft shoe... just like a little kid
> > > who's learned a new trick.
> > >
> > I agree. I think the critics act with him rather as we react to a troll.
> > feeding his habit by pulling him to bits.
>
> As long as you realize that it is, in one aspect, a game it makes a lot
> more sense and is much more amusing.
I wanted to go into art college, for myself, in my 30s, as I'd been told
they really encouraged mature students. At the interview they basically
said "This is a marketplace, they don't want age or character, they want
young blood they can suck dry and discard the shell. Stick at home doing
your own thing and be happy." I didn't know whether to be annoyed or
grateful
elag
>
> elag wrote:
>
> > > If it was a football star they would keep it forever.
> >
> > Hmmph... figures...
>
> it's all that matters now. Today's headline news, something like second
> or third item is about David Beckham when there are matters of world
> peace etc at hand. they even report it when he (frequently) changes his
> hairstyle!
It does sicken one...
reminds me of the great Norman McClaren short "Neighbours" in which one
man reads a paper with a headline shouting "WAR IF NO PEACE" and his
neighbor reads one which says "PEACE IF NO WAR".
they were probably turned to the sports section...
> >
> > > I just saw an
> > > image last night of a wall etched in bronze somewhere in Newcastle which
> > > has apparently disappeared...
> >
> > You mean... they detached a bronze relief?... or have I misunderstood.
> > What was the image?
>
> I was looking through a local photographer's website, he takes pictures
> all over the North east and is pretty up on the history of the area etc.
> Personally I was living elsewhere when this occurred so I don't know
> anything about it The image is pretty easy to spot once the page is
> loaded, a red brick wall with the bronze at the base.
> I hope you can see this link
> http://steveellwood.tripod.com/photographsofnortheastofengland/id5.html
Very interesting piece... I wonder if they sold it as scrap... easier
than tearing copper pipes and wires out of abandoned buildings, I guess...
The rabbit is also a welcome sight... a bit creepy though... he seems to
have hands...
>
...
> > > > Copying Duchamp, mostly...
> > >
> > > exactly... and how many years ago was he doing his thing?
> >
> > Well, until 1968 he lived a couple of block from my apt. After that he
> > moved to a permanent residence underground which is marked: "D'ailleurs
> > c'est toujours les autres qui meurent" - "But it's always other people
> > who die".
>
> :O) Slowed him down a little.
BTW, heres a pic...
<scroll down>
http://tinyurl.com/eafd
...
> I wanted to go into art college, for myself, in my 30s, as I'd been told
> they really encouraged mature students. At the interview they basically
> said "This is a marketplace, they don't want age or character, they want
> young blood they can suck dry and discard the shell. Stick at home doing
> your own thing and be happy." I didn't know whether to be annoyed or
> grateful
Prolly, gratefull... do you really want to cater to the tastes of people
you dislike? I prefer doing my own thing... if an "audience" finds it,
fine... if not I can still enjoy my freedom.
Paul Heslop
>
> Paul Heslop wrote:
> >
> > elag wrote:
> >
> > > > If it was a football star they would keep it forever.
> > >
> > > Hmmph... figures...
> >
> > it's all that matters now. Today's headline news, something like second
> > or third item is about David Beckham when there are matters of world
> > peace etc at hand. they even report it when he (frequently) changes his
> > hairstyle!
>
> It does sicken one...
or even two. :O)
>
> reminds me of the great Norman McClaren short "Neighbours" in which one
> man reads a paper with a headline shouting "WAR IF NO PEACE" and his
> neighbor reads one which says "PEACE IF NO WAR".
>
> they were probably turned to the sports section...
heh, most likely. That's something I haven't seen for ages. We have
'arts' channels but stuff like this is hardly ever shown.
> > I was looking through a local photographer's website, he takes pictures
> > all over the North east and is pretty up on the history of the area etc.
> > Personally I was living elsewhere when this occurred so I don't know
> > anything about it The image is pretty easy to spot once the page is
> > loaded, a red brick wall with the bronze at the base.
> > I hope you can see this link
> > http://steveellwood.tripod.com/photographsofnortheastofengland/id5.html
>
> Very interesting piece... I wonder if they sold it as scrap... easier
> than tearing copper pipes and wires out of abandoned buildings, I guess...
>
> The rabbit is also a welcome sight... a bit creepy though... he seems to
> have hands...
>
I popped down to see the rabbit myself after reading about it. I was
going to take a picture but a bunch of guys were grinding something
below it and dust was everywhere, but it's weird. I musthave passed
within yards of that place for years without knowing it existed.
> >
> ...
>
> > > > > Copying Duchamp, mostly...
> > > >
> > > > exactly... and how many years ago was he doing his thing?
> > >
> > > Well, until 1968 he lived a couple of block from my apt. After that he
> > > moved to a permanent residence underground which is marked: "D'ailleurs
> > > c'est toujours les autres qui meurent" - "But it's always other people
> > > who die".
> >
> > :O) Slowed him down a little.
>
> BTW, heres a pic...
>
> <scroll down>
> http://tinyurl.com/eafd
wow, that's some tombstone!
>
> ...
>
> > I wanted to go into art college, for myself, in my 30s, as I'd been told
> > they really encouraged mature students. At the interview they basically
> > said "This is a marketplace, they don't want age or character, they want
> > young blood they can suck dry and discard the shell. Stick at home doing
> > your own thing and be happy." I didn't know whether to be annoyed or
> > grateful
>
> Prolly, gratefull... do you really want to cater to the tastes of people
> you dislike? I prefer doing my own thing... if an "audience" finds it,
> fine... if not I can still enjoy my freedom.
Yep, i realised this soon afterwards. I was trying to pull myself up by
the boot laces then, but it was before the mental problems etc so maybe
they were right, maybe it would have been too much.
--
Paul. (dead lay in pools of maroon below)
elag
>
> elag wrote:
> >
> > Paul Heslop wrote:
> > >
> > > elag wrote:
> > >
> > > > > If it was a football star they would keep it forever.
> > > >
> > > > Hmmph... figures...
> > >
> > > it's all that matters now. Today's headline news, something like second
> > > or third item is about David Beckham when there are matters of world
> > > peace etc at hand. they even report it when he (frequently) changes his
> > > hairstyle!
> >
> > It does sicken one...
>
> or even two. :O)
> >
> > reminds me of the great Norman McClaren short "Neighbours" in which one
> > man reads a paper with a headline shouting "WAR IF NO PEACE" and his
> > neighbor reads one which says "PEACE IF NO WAR".
> >
> > they were probably turned to the sports section...
>
> heh, most likely. That's something I haven't seen for ages. We have
> 'arts' channels but stuff like this is hardly ever shown.
Yes, sadly they're rarely seen here as well. I wonder how often they're
on the CBC.
>
> > > I was looking through a local photographer's website, he takes pictures
> > > all over the North east and is pretty up on the history of the area etc.
> > > Personally I was living elsewhere when this occurred so I don't know
> > > anything about it The image is pretty easy to spot once the page is
> > > loaded, a red brick wall with the bronze at the base.
> > > I hope you can see this link
> > > http://steveellwood.tripod.com/photographsofnortheastofengland/id5.html
> >
> > Very interesting piece... I wonder if they sold it as scrap... easier
> > than tearing copper pipes and wires out of abandoned buildings, I guess...
> >
> > The rabbit is also a welcome sight... a bit creepy though... he seems to
> > have hands...
> >
> I popped down to see the rabbit myself after reading about it. I was
> going to take a picture but a bunch of guys were grinding something
> below it and dust was everywhere, but it's weird. I musthave passed
> within yards of that place for years without knowing it existed.
That's what makes life interesting... a great city is always full of
such surprises. I just saw an iron gateway topped by "sea horses" (half
horse/half fish) that I'd never seen...
I hope that rabbit remembered his ear plugs... or at least a couple of bananas.
>
> > >
> > ...
> >
> > > > > > Copying Duchamp, mostly...
> > > > >
> > > > > exactly... and how many years ago was he doing his thing?
> > > >
> > > > Well, until 1968 he lived a couple of block from my apt. After that he
> > > > moved to a permanent residence underground which is marked: "D'ailleurs
> > > > c'est toujours les autres qui meurent" - "But it's always other people
> > > > who die".
> > >
> > > :O) Slowed him down a little.
> >
> > BTW, heres a pic...
> >
> > <scroll down>
> > http://tinyurl.com/eafd
>
> wow, that's some tombstone!
Quite a gaggle of Duchamps... I wonder if artgeeks the world over trvel
there to lick the marble...
> >
> > ...
> >
> > > I wanted to go into art college, for myself, in my 30s, as I'd been told
> > > they really encouraged mature students. At the interview they basically
> > > said "This is a marketplace, they don't want age or character, they want
> > > young blood they can suck dry and discard the shell. Stick at home doing
> > > your own thing and be happy." I didn't know whether to be annoyed or
> > > grateful
> >
> > Prolly, gratefull... do you really want to cater to the tastes of people
> > you dislike? I prefer doing my own thing... if an "audience" finds it,
> > fine... if not I can still enjoy my freedom.
>
> Yep, i realised this soon afterwards. I was trying to pull myself up by
> the boot laces then, but it was before the mental problems etc so maybe
> they were right, maybe it would have been too much.
I bet even now you want to draw that rabbit!
Paul Heslop
> > > reminds me of the great Norman McClaren short "Neighbours" in which one
> > > man reads a paper with a headline shouting "WAR IF NO PEACE" and his
> > > neighbor reads one which says "PEACE IF NO WAR".
> > >
> > > they were probably turned to the sports section...
> >
> > heh, most likely. That's something I haven't seen for ages. We have
> > 'arts' channels but stuff like this is hardly ever shown.
>
> Yes, sadly they're rarely seen here as well. I wonder how often they're
> on the CBC.
>
Eek, for a moment I thought you said CBBC, which is one of our kids
channels :O) I reckon I can go back to channel 4's first years for the
last time I saw a series of McClaren's stuff. But the channel ARTE often
features shorts from all over the world... I really miss it but it would
cost a fair bit to fix up the old satellite equipment I have. It is one
channel which i found was unafraid of anything, no matter how way out or
controversial.
> > > Very interesting piece... I wonder if they sold it as scrap... easier
> > > than tearing copper pipes and wires out of abandoned buildings, I guess...
> > >
> > > The rabbit is also a welcome sight... a bit creepy though... he seems to
> > > have hands...
> > >
> > I popped down to see the rabbit myself after reading about it. I was
> > going to take a picture but a bunch of guys were grinding something
> > below it and dust was everywhere, but it's weird. I musthave passed
> > within yards of that place for years without knowing it existed.
>
> That's what makes life interesting... a great city is always full of
> such surprises. I just saw an iron gateway topped by "sea horses" (half
> horse/half fish) that I'd never seen...
>
> I hope that rabbit remembered his ear plugs... or at least a couple of bananas.
:O) The sea horses sound fantastic. I keep looking, high and low. this
little digicam is opening my eyes... and wearing my legs out
> > > BTW, heres a pic...
> > >
> > > <scroll down>
> > > http://tinyurl.com/eafd
> >
> > wow, that's some tombstone!
>
> Quite a gaggle of Duchamps... I wonder if artgeeks the world over trvel
> there to lick the marble...
>
What a repulsive yet strangely amusing thought!
> > > Prolly, gratefull... do you really want to cater to the tastes of people
> > > you dislike? I prefer doing my own thing... if an "audience" finds it,
> > > fine... if not I can still enjoy my freedom.
> >
> > Yep, i realised this soon afterwards. I was trying to pull myself up by
> > the boot laces then, but it was before the mental problems etc so maybe
> > they were right, maybe it would have been too much.
>
> I bet even now you want to draw that rabbit!
I do, I do, but it will not happen. I can manage very small doodles for
the kids occasionally but despite attempts on a number of occasions I
can neither draw nor write by hand in any serious way.
--
Paul. (outside there's a box car waiting)
Parry
> Paul Heslop wrote:
> > elag wrote:
> > > reminds me of the great Norman McClaren short "Neighbours" in which one
> > > man reads a paper with a headline shouting "WAR IF NO PEACE" and his
> > > neighbor reads one which says "PEACE IF NO WAR".
> > >
> > > they were probably turned to the sports section...
> >
> > heh, most likely. That's something I haven't seen for ages. We have
> > 'arts' channels but stuff like this is hardly ever shown.
>
> Yes, sadly they're rarely seen here as well. I wonder how often they're
> on the CBC.
Never.
elag
>
> elag wrote:
> > > > The rabbit is also a welcome sight... a bit creepy though... he seems to
> > > > have hands...
> > > >
> > > I popped down to see the rabbit myself after reading about it. I was
> > > going to take a picture but a bunch of guys were grinding something
> > > below it and dust was everywhere, but it's weird. I musthave passed
> > > within yards of that place for years without knowing it existed.
> >
> > That's what makes life interesting... a great city is always full of
> > such surprises. I just saw an iron gateway topped by "sea horses" (half
> > horse/half fish) that I'd never seen...
> >
> > I hope that rabbit remembered his ear plugs... or at least a couple of bananas.
>
> :O) The sea horses sound fantastic.
Boy, you'd really love the little (cement?) squirrels on Christopher street.
> I keep looking, high and low. this
> little digicam is opening my eyes... and wearing my legs out
It's funny... I've spent so much of my life peering through a viewfinder
that I've had to put my camera aside in order to really see the world.
> > > > BTW, heres a pic...
> > > >
> > > > <scroll down>
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/eafd
> > >
> > > wow, that's some tombstone!
> >
> > Quite a gaggle of Duchamps... I wonder if artgeeks the world over trvel
> > there to lick the marble...
> >
> What a repulsive yet strangely amusing thought!
I was thinking of his book "Le Marchand du Sel" (The Salt Seller) which
is also (in French) an anagram for his name. I figured his tombstone
should taste of salt in order to amuse all of the latter day DaDas..
>
> > > > Prolly, gratefull... do you really want to cater to the tastes of people
> > > > you dislike? I prefer doing my own thing... if an "audience" finds it,
> > > > fine... if not I can still enjoy my freedom.
> > >
> > > Yep, i realised this soon afterwards. I was trying to pull myself up by
> > > the boot laces then, but it was before the mental problems etc so maybe
> > > they were right, maybe it would have been too much.
> >
> > I bet even now you want to draw that rabbit!
>
> I do, I do, but it will not happen. I can manage very small doodles for
> the kids occasionally but despite attempts on a number of occasions I
> can neither draw nor write by hand in any serious way.
You. Must. Draw. The. Rabbit.
elag
Cheese... Canada paid for those shorts through the National Film
Board... you'd think that they'd want to show them once in a while. Do
you think Canadians these day would appreciate seeing them?
Paul Heslop
> > > I hope that rabbit remembered his ear plugs... or at least a couple of bananas.
> >
> > :O) The sea horses sound fantastic.
>
> Boy, you'd really love the little (cement?) squirrels on Christopher street.
:O)
>
> > I keep looking, high and low. this
> > little digicam is opening my eyes... and wearing my legs out
>
> It's funny... I've spent so much of my life peering through a viewfinder
> that I've had to put my camera aside in order to really see the world.
:O) we just didn't have one for years... then processing kept
photography to a minimum, now I am going crazy. I took nearly 300
pictures with his camera yesterday!
> > > Quite a gaggle of Duchamps... I wonder if artgeeks the world over trvel
> > > there to lick the marble...
> > >
> > What a repulsive yet strangely amusing thought!
>
> I was thinking of his book "Le Marchand du Sel" (The Salt Seller) which
> is also (in French) an anagram for his name. I figured his tombstone
> should taste of salt in order to amuse all of the latter day DaDas..
better, I can tolerate a little salt. Does Dali's leak ants?
>
> >
> > > > > Prolly, gratefull... do you really want to cater to the tastes of people
> > > > > you dislike? I prefer doing my own thing... if an "audience" finds it,
> > > > > fine... if not I can still enjoy my freedom.
> > > >
> > > > Yep, i realised this soon afterwards. I was trying to pull myself up by
> > > > the boot laces then, but it was before the mental problems etc so maybe
> > > > they were right, maybe it would have been too much.
> > >
> > > I bet even now you want to draw that rabbit!
> >
> > I do, I do, but it will not happen. I can manage very small doodles for
> > the kids occasionally but despite attempts on a number of occasions I
> > can neither draw nor write by hand in any serious way.
>
> You. Must. Draw. The. Rabbit.
I hope you're waving a fob watch to and fro.
elag
>
> elag wrote:
>
> > > > I hope that rabbit remembered his ear plugs... or at least a couple of bananas.
> > >
> > > :O) The sea horses sound fantastic.
> >
> > Boy, you'd really love the little (cement?) squirrels on Christopher street.
>
> :O)
> >
> > > I keep looking, high and low. this
> > > little digicam is opening my eyes... and wearing my legs out
> >
> > It's funny... I've spent so much of my life peering through a viewfinder
> > that I've had to put my camera aside in order to really see the world.
>
> :O) we just didn't have one for years... then processing kept
> photography to a minimum, now I am going crazy. I took nearly 300
> pictures with his camera yesterday!
You know, even pros rarely use more than 10% of what they shoot.
Edit & Print.
>
> > > > Quite a gaggle of Duchamps... I wonder if artgeeks the world over trvel
> > > > there to lick the marble...
> > > >
> > > What a repulsive yet strangely amusing thought!
> >
> > I was thinking of his book "Le Marchand du Sel" (The Salt Seller) which
> > is also (in French) an anagram for his name. I figured his tombstone
> > should taste of salt in order to amuse all of the latter day DaDas..
>
> better, I can tolerate a little salt. Does Dali's leak ants?
Knowing Dali (Avida Dollars)... they probably charge admission to see it.
A little known fact: In Mexico fried ant eggs (escamoles) are
considered a delicasy. They go well with guacamole possibly because
they rhyme.
> >
> > >
> > > > > > Prolly, gratefull... do you really want to cater to the tastes of people
> > > > > > you dislike? I prefer doing my own thing... if an "audience" finds it,
> > > > > > fine... if not I can still enjoy my freedom.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yep, i realised this soon afterwards. I was trying to pull myself up by
> > > > > the boot laces then, but it was before the mental problems etc so maybe
> > > > > they were right, maybe it would have been too much.
> > > >
> > > > I bet even now you want to draw that rabbit!
> > >
> > > I do, I do, but it will not happen. I can manage very small doodles for
> > > the kids occasionally but despite attempts on a number of occasions I
> > > can neither draw nor write by hand in any serious way.
> >
> > You. Must. Draw. The. Rabbit.
>
> I hope you're waving a fob watch to and fro.
I was thinking along those lines.
Paul Heslop
> > > > I keep looking, high and low. this
> > > > little digicam is opening my eyes... and wearing my legs out
> > >
> > > It's funny... I've spent so much of my life peering through a viewfinder
> > > that I've had to put my camera aside in order to really see the world.
> >
> > :O) we just didn't have one for years... then processing kept
> > photography to a minimum, now I am going crazy. I took nearly 300
> > pictures with his camera yesterday!
>
> You know, even pros rarely use more than 10% of what they shoot.
>
> Edit & Print.
Ah well, they say one of the great things about digital photography is
that hardly any of it gets printed out, it's more snap and share.
> > > I was thinking of his book "Le Marchand du Sel" (The Salt Seller) which
> > > is also (in French) an anagram for his name. I figured his tombstone
> > > should taste of salt in order to amuse all of the latter day DaDas..
> >
> > better, I can tolerate a little salt. Does Dali's leak ants?
>
> Knowing Dali (Avida Dollars)... they probably charge admission to see it.
>
> A little known fact: In Mexico fried ant eggs (escamoles) are
> considered a delicasy. They go well with guacamole possibly because
> they rhyme.
>
Yum, yeah, i recall the Avida Dollars thing, and all that using others
to paint his stuff as he got older etc... he became a factory didn't he?
Do they still churn it out and say they're channeling him?
> > > > I do, I do, but it will not happen. I can manage very small doodles for
> > > > the kids occasionally but despite attempts on a number of occasions I
> > > > can neither draw nor write by hand in any serious way.
> > >
> > > You. Must. Draw. The. Rabbit.
> >
> > I hope you're waving a fob watch to and fro.
>
> I was thinking along those lines.
It didn't work, I suggest bribery and corruption! :O)
elag
>
> elag wrote:
>
> > > > > I keep looking, high and low. this
> > > > > little digicam is opening my eyes... and wearing my legs out
> > > >
> > > > It's funny... I've spent so much of my life peering through a viewfinder
> > > > that I've had to put my camera aside in order to really see the world.
> > >
> > > :O) we just didn't have one for years... then processing kept
> > > photography to a minimum, now I am going crazy. I took nearly 300
> > > pictures with his camera yesterday!
> >
> > You know, even pros rarely use more than 10% of what they shoot.
> >
> > Edit & Print.
>
> Ah well, they say one of the great things about digital photography is
> that hardly any of it gets printed out, it's more snap and share.
Wel, in the digital age "print" has come to have a wider meaning. I
suppose placing them on a web page is now covered.
>
> > > > I was thinking of his book "Le Marchand du Sel" (The Salt Seller) which
> > > > is also (in French) an anagram for his name. I figured his tombstone
> > > > should taste of salt in order to amuse all of the latter day DaDas..
> > >
> > > better, I can tolerate a little salt. Does Dali's leak ants?
> >
> > Knowing Dali (Avida Dollars)... they probably charge admission to see it.
> >
> > A little known fact: In Mexico fried ant eggs (escamoles) are
> > considered a delicasy. They go well with guacamole possibly because
> > they rhyme.
> >
> Yum, yeah, i recall the Avida Dollars thing, and all that using others
> to paint his stuff as he got older etc... he became a factory didn't he?
There was a big scandal about him signing 100's of blank sheets to be
filled in (w/ lithographs?) later.
> Do they still churn it out and say they're channeling him?
Could be, who would know?
>
> > > > > I do, I do, but it will not happen. I can manage very small doodles for
> > > > > the kids occasionally but despite attempts on a number of occasions I
> > > > > can neither draw nor write by hand in any serious way.
> > > >
> > > > You. Must. Draw. The. Rabbit.
> > >
> > > I hope you're waving a fob watch to and fro.
> >
> > I was thinking along those lines.
>
> It didn't work, I suggest bribery and corruption! :O)
How about all the fried ant egg tacos you can eat?
Paul Heslop
>
> Paul Heslop wrote:
> >
> > elag wrote:
> >
> > > > > > I keep looking, high and low. this
> > > > > > little digicam is opening my eyes... and wearing my legs out
> > > > >
> > > > > It's funny... I've spent so much of my life peering through a viewfinder
> > > > > that I've had to put my camera aside in order to really see the world.
> > > >
> > > > :O) we just didn't have one for years... then processing kept
> > > > photography to a minimum, now I am going crazy. I took nearly 300
> > > > pictures with his camera yesterday!
> > >
> > > You know, even pros rarely use more than 10% of what they shoot.
> > >
> > > Edit & Print.
> >
> > Ah well, they say one of the great things about digital photography is
> > that hardly any of it gets printed out, it's more snap and share.
>
> Wel, in the digital age "print" has come to have a wider meaning. I
> suppose placing them on a web page is now covered.
It's like my artwork, I don't push it around but I know at least a
couple of thousand people have seen it, which is a couple of thousand
more than previously. If just one person in 100 likes what they see then
I'm happy. I don't need to be paid to get pleasure out of it. The
photography is relatively new and is kinder to my brain than writing
was, so I go with it, though sadly I haven't used the camera since
Monday due to ill health and awful weather.
>
> >
> > > > > I was thinking of his book "Le Marchand du Sel" (The Salt Seller) which
> > > > > is also (in French) an anagram for his name. I figured his tombstone
> > > > > should taste of salt in order to amuse all of the latter day DaDas..
> > > >
> > > > better, I can tolerate a little salt. Does Dali's leak ants?
> > >
> > > Knowing Dali (Avida Dollars)... they probably charge admission to see it.
> > >
> > > A little known fact: In Mexico fried ant eggs (escamoles) are
> > > considered a delicasy. They go well with guacamole possibly because
> > > they rhyme.
> > >
> > Yum, yeah, i recall the Avida Dollars thing, and all that using others
> > to paint his stuff as he got older etc... he became a factory didn't he?
>
> There was a big scandal about him signing 100's of blank sheets to be
> filled in (w/ lithographs?) later.
It really is sad. despite what some say i enjoyed his stuff immensely,
it grabbed my young subconscious as nobody else had... of course I know
he was a sell out but what the hey. I kind of enjoy a few others, but
some of the more out there ones, and Dorothea Tanning was a big
favourite.
>
> > Do they still churn it out and say they're channeling him?
>
> Could be, who would know?
true. I'd like to visit the museum some day
>
> >
> > > > > > I do, I do, but it will not happen. I can manage very small doodles for
> > > > > > the kids occasionally but despite attempts on a number of occasions I
> > > > > > can neither draw nor write by hand in any serious way.
> > > > >
> > > > > You. Must. Draw. The. Rabbit.
> > > >
> > > > I hope you're waving a fob watch to and fro.
> > >
> > > I was thinking along those lines.
> >
> > It didn't work, I suggest bribery and corruption! :O)
>
> How about all the fried ant egg tacos you can eat?
mmmmmmmmmmmmm fried ant egg.
elag
>
> elag wrote:
> >
> > Paul Heslop wrote:
> > >
> > > elag wrote:
> > >
> > > > > better, I can tolerate a little salt. Does Dali's leak ants?
> > > >
> > > > Knowing Dali (Avida Dollars)... they probably charge admission to see it.
> > > >
> > > > A little known fact: In Mexico fried ant eggs (escamoles) are
> > > > considered a delicasy. They go well with guacamole possibly because
> > > > they rhyme.
> > > >
> > > Yum, yeah, i recall the Avida Dollars thing, and all that using others
> > > to paint his stuff as he got older etc... he became a factory didn't he?
> >
> > There was a big scandal about him signing 100's of blank sheets to be
> > filled in (w/ lithographs?) later.
>
> It really is sad. despite what some say i enjoyed his stuff immensely,
> it grabbed my young subconscious as nobody else had... of course I know
> he was a sell out but what the hey.
I've heard him called the gateway drug to Surrealism and that's not a
bad description. His work can get people interested in finding out more
about Surrealism and the Surrealists, even if he did repudiate all that
they stood for.
Unfortunately, he also causes many to believe that Surrealism was just
about melting clocks.. and unfortunately adds religion into the mix as well.
I do enjoy a bit of his work... mainly the Surrealist period stuff but
also some of his later tricksy work.
I kind of enjoy a few others, but
> some of the more out there ones, and Dorothea Tanning was a big
> favourite.
> >
> > > Do they still churn it out and say they're channeling him?
> >
> > Could be, who would know?
>
> true. I'd like to visit the museum some day
It's not so far for you... just a hop a skip a hovercraft ride a train a
bus a taxicab and a jump...
> >
> > >
> > > > > > > I do, I do, but it will not happen. I can manage very small doodles for
> > > > > > > the kids occasionally but despite attempts on a number of occasions I
> > > > > > > can neither draw nor write by hand in any serious way.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You. Must. Draw. The. Rabbit.
> > > > >
> > > > > I hope you're waving a fob watch to and fro.
> > > >
> > > > I was thinking along those lines.
> > >
> > > It didn't work, I suggest bribery and corruption! :O)
> >
> > How about all the fried ant egg tacos you can eat?
>
> mmmmmmmmmmmmm fried ant egg.
They taste a lot like "cracklins" out of a frying pan after cooking pancakes.
Paul Heslop
> > > > Yum, yeah, i recall the Avida Dollars thing, and all that using others
> > > > to paint his stuff as he got older etc... he became a factory didn't he?
> > >
> > > There was a big scandal about him signing 100's of blank sheets to be
> > > filled in (w/ lithographs?) later.
> >
> > It really is sad. despite what some say i enjoyed his stuff immensely,
> > it grabbed my young subconscious as nobody else had... of course I know
> > he was a sell out but what the hey.
>
> I've heard him called the gateway drug to Surrealism and that's not a
> bad description. His work can get people interested in finding out more
> about Surrealism and the Surrealists, even if he did repudiate all that
> they stood for.
>
> Unfortunately, he also causes many to believe that Surrealism was just
> about melting clocks.. and unfortunately adds religion into the mix as well.
ach, one aspect I can well do without
>
> I do enjoy a bit of his work... mainly the Surrealist period stuff but
> also some of his later tricksy work.
I first heard his name mentioned along with Alice Cooper... did he do
some special effects for Alice's stage show?
>
> I kind of enjoy a few others, but
> > some of the more out there ones, and Dorothea Tanning was a big
> > favourite.
> > >
> > > > Do they still churn it out and say they're channeling him?
> > >
> > > Could be, who would know?
> >
> > true. I'd like to visit the museum some day
>
> It's not so far for you... just a hop a skip a hovercraft ride a train a
> bus a taxicab and a jump...
>
Heh, going any further than ten miles or so is a BIG issue for me.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > > I do, I do, but it will not happen. I can manage very small doodles for
> > > > > > > > the kids occasionally but despite attempts on a number of occasions I
> > > > > > > > can neither draw nor write by hand in any serious way.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You. Must. Draw. The. Rabbit.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I hope you're waving a fob watch to and fro.
> > > > >
> > > > > I was thinking along those lines.
> > > >
> > > > It didn't work, I suggest bribery and corruption! :O)
> > >
> > > How about all the fried ant egg tacos you can eat?
> >
> > mmmmmmmmmmmmm fried ant egg.
>
> They taste a lot like "cracklins" out of a frying pan after cooking pancakes.
yum
Parry
> elag wrote:
>
> > > > > Yum, yeah, i recall the Avida Dollars thing, and all that using others
> > > > > to paint his stuff as he got older etc... he became a factory didn't he?
> > > >
> > > > There was a big scandal about him signing 100's of blank sheets to be
> > > > filled in (w/ lithographs?) later.
> > >
> > > It really is sad. despite what some say i enjoyed his stuff immensely,
> > > it grabbed my young subconscious as nobody else had... of course I know
> > > he was a sell out but what the hey.
> >
> > I've heard him called the gateway drug to Surrealism and that's not a
> > bad description. His work can get people interested in finding out more
> > about Surrealism and the Surrealists, even if he did repudiate all that
> > they stood for.
> >
> > Unfortunately, he also causes many to believe that Surrealism was just
> > about melting clocks.. and unfortunately adds religion into the mix as well.
>
> ach, one aspect I can well do without
> >
> > I do enjoy a bit of his work... mainly the Surrealist period stuff but
> > also some of his later tricksy work.
>
> I first heard his name mentioned along with Alice Cooper... did he do
> some special effects for Alice's stage show?
Hadn't heard that, but have read that the two publicity hounds did
collide in 1973 when Dali made a holographic portrait of Cooper, who
was posed wearing a million bucks worth of jewelry and holding a fake
brain studded with the usual Dali shtick (ants, a soft watch, etc.).
Dali claimed "To me Alice is the best exponent of total confusion,"
while Cooper said "Dali is possibly more confusing than I am." That's
it for my glam rock trivia today...
...except to say the year after David Bowie opened his "Diamond Dogs"
shows (if I'm not getting the tours mixed up) with a showing of "Un
Chien Andalou."
-- Parry
Parry
Probably just the ones in film schools. But the films are readily
available as the NFB supplies libraries with free videos. And they do
occasionally show up on television -- as a wee hours' interstitial
fill on the arts channel or in a MacLaren biography, for instance. I
suspect most Canadians have seen at least some of his stuff at one
time or other. I don't know how much he's appreciated, though. Seems
all anybody wants to see nowadays is Michael Snow.
Did I say Michael Snow? I meant American television.
-- Parry
Paul Heslop
:O) See, you learn something new every day. I was a bit of an Alice fan
and recalled seeing Dali's name mentioned once or twice.
--
Paul. (Hey and we pray everyday still we lay)
elag
>
> elag wrote:
>
> > > > > Yum, yeah, i recall the Avida Dollars thing, and all that using others
> > > > > to paint his stuff as he got older etc... he became a factory didn't he?
> > > >
> > > > There was a big scandal about him signing 100's of blank sheets to be
> > > > filled in (w/ lithographs?) later.
> > >
> > > It really is sad. despite what some say i enjoyed his stuff immensely,
> > > it grabbed my young subconscious as nobody else had... of course I know
> > > he was a sell out but what the hey.
> >
> > I've heard him called the gateway drug to Surrealism and that's not a
> > bad description. His work can get people interested in finding out more
> > about Surrealism and the Surrealists, even if he did repudiate all that
> > they stood for.
> >
> > Unfortunately, he also causes many to believe that Surrealism was just
> > about melting clocks.. and unfortunately adds religion into the mix as well.
>
> ach, one aspect I can well do without
> >
> > I do enjoy a bit of his work... mainly the Surrealist period stuff but
> > also some of his later tricksy work.
>
> I first heard his name mentioned along with Alice Cooper... did he do
> some special effects for Alice's stage show?
eccola!
http://www.alicecoopertrivia.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/p-dali.html
> >
> > I kind of enjoy a few others, but
> > > some of the more out there ones, and Dorothea Tanning was a big
> > > favourite.
> > > >
> > > > > Do they still churn it out and say they're channeling him?
> > > >
> > > > Could be, who would know?
> > >
> > > true. I'd like to visit the museum some day
> >
> > It's not so far for you... just a hop a skip a hovercraft ride a train a
> > bus a taxicab and a jump...
> >
> Heh, going any further than ten miles or so is a BIG issue for me.
Sore feet?
elag
>
> elag <el...@cloud9.net> wrote in message news:<3EEE9991...@cloud9.net>...
> > Parry wrote:
> > >
> > > elag <el...@cloud9.net> wrote in message news:<3EED2698...@cloud9.net>...
> > > > Paul Heslop wrote:
> > > > > elag wrote:
> > > > > > reminds me of the great Norman McClaren short "Neighbours" in which one
> > > > > > man reads a paper with a headline shouting "WAR IF NO PEACE" and his
> > > > > > neighbor reads one which says "PEACE IF NO WAR".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > they were probably turned to the sports section...
> > > > >
> > > > > heh, most likely. That's something I haven't seen for ages. We have
> > > > > 'arts' channels but stuff like this is hardly ever shown.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, sadly they're rarely seen here as well. I wonder how often they're
> > > > on the CBC.
> > >
> > > Never.
> >
> > Cheese... Canada paid for those shorts through the National Film
> > Board... you'd think that they'd want to show them once in a while. Do
> > you think Canadians these day would appreciate seeing them?
>
> Probably just the ones in film schools. But the films are readily
> available as the NFB supplies libraries with free videos.
That's good.
> And they do occasionally show up on television -- as a wee hours' interstitial
> fill on the arts channel or in a MacLaren biography, for instance. I
> suspect most Canadians have seen at least some of his stuff at one
> time or other.
I should hope so.
> I don't know how much he's appreciated, though. Seems
> all anybody wants to see nowadays is Michael Snow.
Heh, I've actually seen several. I like them, but he does go on doesn't he?
My Thesis advisor was actually in Wavelength.
> Did I say Michael Snow? I meant American television.
That's more like it...
Paul Heslop
>
> Paul Heslop wrote:
> >
> > elag wrote:
> >
> > > > > > Yum, yeah, i recall the Avida Dollars thing, and all that using others
> > > > > > to paint his stuff as he got older etc... he became a factory didn't he?
> > > > >
> > > > > There was a big scandal about him signing 100's of blank sheets to be
> > > > > filled in (w/ lithographs?) later.
> > > >
> > > > It really is sad. despite what some say i enjoyed his stuff immensely,
> > > > it grabbed my young subconscious as nobody else had... of course I know
> > > > he was a sell out but what the hey.
> > >
> > > I've heard him called the gateway drug to Surrealism and that's not a
> > > bad description. His work can get people interested in finding out more
> > > about Surrealism and the Surrealists, even if he did repudiate all that
> > > they stood for.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, he also causes many to believe that Surrealism was just
> > > about melting clocks.. and unfortunately adds religion into the mix as well.
> >
> > ach, one aspect I can well do without
> > >
> > > I do enjoy a bit of his work... mainly the Surrealist period stuff but
> > > also some of his later tricksy work.
> >
> > I first heard his name mentioned along with Alice Cooper... did he do
> > some special effects for Alice's stage show?
>
> eccola!
> http://www.alicecoopertrivia.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/p-dali.html
>
> > >
> > > I kind of enjoy a few others, but
> > > > some of the more out there ones, and Dorothea Tanning was a big
> > > > favourite.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Do they still churn it out and say they're channeling him?
> > > > >
> > > > > Could be, who would know?
> > > >
> > > > true. I'd like to visit the museum some day
> > >
> > > It's not so far for you... just a hop a skip a hovercraft ride a train a
> > > bus a taxicab and a jump...
> > >
> > Heh, going any further than ten miles or so is a BIG issue for me.
>
> Sore feet?
and the brain thing. This has helped me spread my wings, this camera...
but still I'm battling with the urge to run off home at any second.
--
Paul. (Hey and we pray everyday still we lay)
elag
it turned out to be an interesting story...
and yet another person who wanted to wring Dali's neck...
> > > >
> > > > I kind of enjoy a few others, but
> > > > > some of the more out there ones, and Dorothea Tanning was a big
> > > > > favourite.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Do they still churn it out and say they're channeling him?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Could be, who would know?
> > > > >
> > > > > true. I'd like to visit the museum some day
> > > >
> > > > It's not so far for you... just a hop a skip a hovercraft ride a train a
> > > > bus a taxicab and a jump...
> > > >
> > > Heh, going any further than ten miles or so is a BIG issue for me.
> >
> > Sore feet?
>
> and the brain thing. This has helped me spread my wings, this camera...
> but still I'm battling with the urge to run off home at any second.
Ah... it helps to put things in perspective. I walk 5 miles to get to
the Guggenheim Museum and that's still in Manhattan. Ten miles is
surely no great distance w/in greater London. Spin the globe a few
times and 10 miles seems like a walk around the block.
Paul Heslop
> > > Sore feet?
> >
> > and the brain thing. This has helped me spread my wings, this camera...
> > but still I'm battling with the urge to run off home at any second.
>
> Ah... it helps to put things in perspective. I walk 5 miles to get to
> the Guggenheim Museum and that's still in Manhattan. Ten miles is
> surely no great distance w/in greater London. Spin the globe a few
> times and 10 miles seems like a walk around the block.
In greater London ten miles would be pretty good, but here, ten miles is
the nearest big city :O)
elag
>
> elag wrote:
>
> > > > Sore feet?
> > >
> > > and the brain thing. This has helped me spread my wings, this camera...
> > > but still I'm battling with the urge to run off home at any second.
> >
> > Ah... it helps to put things in perspective. I walk 5 miles to get to
> > the Guggenheim Museum and that's still in Manhattan. Ten miles is
> > surely no great distance w/in greater London. Spin the globe a few
> > times and 10 miles seems like a walk around the block.
>
> In greater London ten miles would be pretty good,
Seems to be about 10 miles from Kew Gardens to St. Paul's...
> but here, ten miles is the nearest big city :O)
Which is?
Paul Heslop
Newcastle.
Parry
[snip McLaren stuff]
> > I don't know how much he's appreciated, though. Seems
> > all anybody wants to see nowadays is Michael Snow.
>
> Heh, I've actually seen several. I like them, but he does go on doesn't he?
I've never actually seen one. But I've read about them, and wonder if
that isn't just as good. For instance, as I recall one film was made
by strapping the camera to a self-operated contraption and letting it
spin around. As an idea it's intriguing, as a viewing experience maybe
not. Anyway my impression is that Snow is avant-garde, whereas McLaren
had an explicit affinity with surrealism, though discussion of his
works often revolves around his technical innovations.
-- Parry
elag
>
> elag wrote:
> >
> > Paul Heslop wrote:
> > >
> > > elag wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > Sore feet?
> > > > >
> > > > > and the brain thing. This has helped me spread my wings, this camera...
> > > > > but still I'm battling with the urge to run off home at any second.
> > > >
> > > > Ah... it helps to put things in perspective. I walk 5 miles to get to
> > > > the Guggenheim Museum and that's still in Manhattan. Ten miles is
> > > > surely no great distance w/in greater London. Spin the globe a few
> > > > times and 10 miles seems like a walk around the block.
> > >
> > > In greater London ten miles would be pretty good,
> >
> > Seems to be about 10 miles from Kew Gardens to St. Paul's...
> >
> > > but here, ten miles is the nearest big city :O)
> >
> > Which is?
>
> Newcastle.
I should have surmised that... I've always liked using that old saw
about the relative plentitude of coal...
From: elag (el...@concentric.net)
Subject: Re: Get VIAGRA Online
Newsgroups: alt.bored
Date: 1998/10/08
An idea: buy the stuff and sell it to high school students. Bringing
coals to
Newcastle, you say?... These kids buy Nike hats... Hootie and the Blowfish
CD's and Mountain Dew... with the proper marketing they'll buy ANYTHING!
s-so-o sleepy...
elag
>
> elag <el...@cloud9.net> wrote in message news:<3EF9281F...@cloud9.net>...
> [snip McLaren stuff]
> > > I don't know how much he's appreciated, though. Seems
> > > all anybody wants to see nowadays is Michael Snow.
> >
> > Heh, I've actually seen several. I like them, but he does go on doesn't he?
>
> I've never actually seen one. But I've read about them, and wonder if
> that isn't just as good.
Maybe almost as good as they are high concept pieces. Once you get the
concept you're more than halfway to experimental film nirvana.
> For instance, as I recall one film was made
> by strapping the camera to a self-operated contraption and letting it
> spin around.
I believe that would be "<->" aka "Back and Forth".
> As an idea it's intriguing, as a viewing experience maybe not.
It's not exactly entertainment in the Hollywood sense, but I do find
experiments entertaining.
These experiments can get tedious after a bit even for a masochistic
experimental type such as myself but I think the experience is
worthwhile. If you get a little bored you can always take a refreshing catnap.
You might even like a film like "Wavelength" if you can stay awake, but
"<->" may give you a spell of vertigo. Imagine-a film which causes vertigo...
> Anyway my impression is that Snow is avant-garde, whereas McLaren
> had an explicit affinity with surrealism, though discussion of his
> works often revolves around his technical innovations.
Labels, labels... One of my professors once said that "all films are
experimental" to a degree and that's roughly how I look at it. What is
the avant garde in advance of?... Theiving Hollywood hacks?... Okay,
sometimes that's the case, but I bet they won't be copying Snow.
Both of them expanded the Cinema by working their imaginations in
different ways, and I have learned from both of them. It is true that
the improvisitory animations of McClaren do have an affinity w/
Surrealist improvisation. Some of his other work would probably have
pleased them as well. His sense of humor did drift into "umour"
ocassionally, I suppose.
I'll have to look for some McClaren films at the Library...
Paul Heslop
:O) Of course there are hardly any coal mines left here, so it's more
'bringing call centers to Newcastle" now
elag
Not a surprising turn, I guess. As long as the brown ales hold out no
one will miss all that coal.
Paul Heslop
Not sure they'd miss the broon ale either, they're all lager drinkers
now.
Parry
> Parry wrote:
> > [snip McLaren stuff]
> > > > I don't know how much he's appreciated, though. Seems
> > > > all anybody wants to see nowadays is Michael Snow.
> > >
> > > Heh, I've actually seen several. I like them, but he does go on doesn't he?
> >
> > I've never actually seen one. But I've read about them, and wonder if
> > that isn't just as good.
>
> Maybe almost as good as they are high concept pieces. Once you get the
> concept you're more than halfway to experimental film nirvana.
>
> > For instance, as I recall one film was made
> > by strapping the camera to a self-operated contraption and letting it
> > spin around.
>
> I believe that would be "<->" aka "Back and Forth".
>
> > As an idea it's intriguing, as a viewing experience maybe not.
>
> It's not exactly entertainment in the Hollywood sense, but I do find
> experiments entertaining.
>
> These experiments can get tedious after a bit even for a masochistic
> experimental type such as myself but I think the experience is
> worthwhile. If you get a little bored you can always take a refreshing catnap.
>
> You might even like a film like "Wavelength" if you can stay awake, but
> "<->" may give you a spell of vertigo. Imagine-a film which causes vertigo...
"Wavelength" is something of a murder story, isn't it? I'd be curious
to see how the narrative emerges in this film. To go off on a bit of a
tangent, I'm recalling a short story by J.G. Ballard which was
designed to look like the index of a book. As you read the index, the
bits of information begin to connect and gain significance, and in
this way its narrative emerges. That's the sort of experience one may
have in a dream, where a innocuous activity like reading a book's
index evolves into something larger and revealing. I think any film
with narrative has the potential to connect to dreams and hope that
watching "Wavelength" would be a similar experience.
> > Anyway my impression is that Snow is avant-garde, whereas McLaren
> > had an explicit affinity with surrealism, though discussion of his
> > works often revolves around his technical innovations.
>
> Labels, labels... One of my professors once said that "all films are
> experimental" to a degree and that's roughly how I look at it. What is
> the avant garde in advance of?... Theiving Hollywood hacks?... Okay,
> sometimes that's the case, but I bet they won't be copying Snow.
>
> Both of them expanded the Cinema by working their imaginations in
> different ways, and I have learned from both of them. It is true that
> the improvisitory animations of McClaren do have an affinity w/
> Surrealist improvisation. Some of his other work would probably have
> pleased them as well. His sense of humor did drift into "umour"
> ocassionally, I suppose.
I would label "avant garde" a work in which the formal properties of
the medium become the foremost concern. Some of McLaren's later films
are like this -- the ones where straight lines divide and bop around,
or where images of dancers' movements are multiplied with an optical
printer. In these films, technique is everything, and it's the sort of
stuff which allows critics to say his work is "about the unadulterated
joy of movement, colour and shape. They are purely aesthetic." I had
seen these films and was indifferent to McLaren's animations until I
saw some of his earlier work, for instance one in which the animation
is created by gradually altering a single picture frame-by-frame
(rather than drawing a new image for each frame), which was visually
powerful. So now I'm a fan. Later, I heard an interview in which
McLaren equated his work with surrealism, presumably because his
abstract imagery was drawn from the unconscious.
> I'll have to look for some McClaren films at the Library...
Good idea. This discussion has prompted me to sign out an NFB
documentary on McLaren -- probably the same one with the interview I
just mentioned, but I'll watch it again this wekend. It's either that
or "The Hulk."
-- Parry
elag
Blasphemy.
elag
>
> elag <el...@cloud9.net> wrote in message news:<3F019F19...@cloud9.net>...
> > Parry wrote:
> > > [snip McLaren stuff]
> > > > > I don't know how much he's appreciated, though. Seems
> > > > > all anybody wants to see nowadays is Michael Snow.
> > > >
> > > > Heh, I've actually seen several. I like them, but he does go on doesn't he?
> > >
> > > I've never actually seen one. But I've read about them, and wonder if
> > > that isn't just as good.
> >
> > Maybe almost as good as they are high concept pieces. Once you get the
> > concept you're more than halfway to experimental film nirvana.
> >
> > > For instance, as I recall one film was made
> > > by strapping the camera to a self-operated contraption and letting it
> > > spin around.
> >
> > I believe that would be "<->" aka "Back and Forth".
> >
> > > As an idea it's intriguing, as a viewing experience maybe not.
> >
> > It's not exactly entertainment in the Hollywood sense, but I do find
> > experiments entertaining.
> >
> > These experiments can get tedious after a bit even for a masochistic
> > experimental type such as myself but I think the experience is
> > worthwhile. If you get a little bored you can always take a refreshing catnap.
> >
> > You might even like a film like "Wavelength" if you can stay awake, but
> > "<->" may give you a spell of vertigo. Imagine-a film which causes vertigo...
>
> "Wavelength" is something of a murder story, isn't it?
Yes, that is part of it.
> I'd be curious to see how the narrative emerges in this film.
It does stretch the narrative form in a new way.
> To go off on a bit of a tangent, I'm recalling a short story by J.G. Ballard which was
> designed to look like the index of a book. As you read the index, the
> bits of information begin to connect and gain significance, and in
> this way its narrative emerges. That's the sort of experience one may
> have in a dream, where a innocuous activity like reading a book's
> index evolves into something larger and revealing.
ooo... that sound great... any chance you can turn up the title?
> I think any film with narrative
Or even w/o narrative...
> has the potential to connect to dreams and hope that
> watching "Wavelength" would be a similar experience.
I think that it could be experienced in this way.
>
> > > Anyway my impression is that Snow is avant-garde, whereas McLaren
> > > had an explicit affinity with surrealism, though discussion of his
> > > works often revolves around his technical innovations.
> >
> > Labels, labels... One of my professors once said that "all films are
> > experimental" to a degree and that's roughly how I look at it. What is
> > the avant garde in advance of?... Theiving Hollywood hacks?... Okay,
> > sometimes that's the case, but I bet they won't be copying Snow.
> >
> > Both of them expanded the Cinema by working their imaginations in
> > different ways, and I have learned from both of them. It is true that
> > the improvisitory animations of McClaren do have an affinity w/
> > Surrealist improvisation. Some of his other work would probably have
> > pleased them as well. His sense of humor did drift into "umour"
> > ocassionally, I suppose.
>
> I would label "avant garde" a work in which the formal properties of
> the medium become the foremost concern.
I guess I'd just say formalist, but I don't get overly concerned w/ such
terminology. There's an advance guard of form and there's an advance
guard of content. There's even an advance guard of commercialism.
> Some of McLaren's later films
> are like this -- the ones where straight lines divide and bop around,
> or where images of dancers' movements are multiplied with an optical
> printer. In these films, technique is everything, and it's the sort of
> stuff which allows critics to say his work is "about the unadulterated
> joy of movement, colour and shape. They are purely aesthetic."
I'd just say non-representational. They definitely tie in to early
films by Richter & Eggeling. There were a few filmmakers in the '20's
like Walter Ruttman & Oskar Fischinger who tried to find a visual
equivalent to music.
> I had seen these films and was indifferent to McLaren's animations until I
> saw some of his earlier work, for instance one in which the animation
> is created by gradually altering a single picture frame-by-frame
> (rather than drawing a new image for each frame), which was visually
> powerful. So now I'm a fan.
Me too. Unfortunately, I haven't seen that material for a long time and
my memory is very hazy. I hope I can find a few.
Later, I heard an interview in which
> McLaren equated his work with surrealism, presumably because his
> abstract imagery was drawn from the unconscious.
I can see that, at least in some of what I've seen.
>
> > I'll have to look for some McClaren films at the Library...
>
> Good idea. This discussion has prompted me to sign out an NFB
> documentary on McLaren -- probably the same one with the interview I
> just mentioned,
Does it include any complete films, or just excerpts?
> but I'll watch it again this wekend. It's either that
or "The Hulk."
Oh no... see the movie/ play the video game!
If it must be the Hulk just dig up some 60's reprints.
Paul Heslop
:O) I ws a lager drinker too
Parry
I think it was just called "The Index." There was a "Complete Short
Stories" of Ballard published a couple of years ago so it should be in
that. Hope I haven't remembered the story all wrong.
The documentary is called "Creative Process" and it is the one I'd
seen before, with McLaren explicit about the influence of surrealism.
It has only excerpts, but it has a *lot* of excerpts crammed into its
nearly 2-hr running time -- including bits from the first films he
made in college and from unfinished projects. There's even a painting
he made in high school, and doodles he made on a medical z-ray of his
head. Very nicely done. The funniest bit was a clip from an old
television interview in which McLaren explains how a technique he
devised was later used in an instructional film about cancer. Then he
can only look sheepish as the interviewer speaks to the audience,
justifying the trifles of McLaren's life work by saying it leads to
useful things like the (now-forgotten) industrial movie.
> > but I'll watch it again this wekend. It's either that
> or "The Hulk."
>
> Oh no... see the movie/ play the video game!
>
> If it must be the Hulk just dig up some 60's reprints.
Jack Kirby's fine, but I've always been more of a Ditko man.
-- Parry
elag
I hope the lager was at least "warm".
elag
Thanks, for the info. I hope it wasn't all just a dream within a dream.
....
I may have seen it in Film class. It also seems like something which
might have turned up on PBS.
>
> > > but I'll watch it again this wekend. It's either that
> > or "The Hulk."
> >
> > Oh no... see the movie/ play the video game!
> >
> > If it must be the Hulk just dig up some 60's reprints.
>
> Jack Kirby's fine, but I've always been more of a Ditko man.
Yeah, I don't know much about Ditko's personal life, but he always did
give the impression of a very strange bug. I always preferred his
spindly Spidey to the later musclebound version. The weird netherworlds
of Doc Strange were also a favorite of mine.
Hey, here's a bio:
Paul Heslop
Usually with lime too! (or for really swinging bad heads and the most
disgusting vomit covered taxi seats try lager and black currant!)
--
Paul. (Here's a little ghost for the offering)
elag
That does sound bad. In Berlin there is a funny drink called Berliner
Weisse, a wheat beer which is often drunk with a dash of syrup, which
makes it bright green (woodruff) or red (raspberry). It is an
interesting if cloying flavor, certainly very festive... I still have a
bottle of the woodruff syrup in the fridge... perhaps its time for me to
revisit Berlin in the form of beer.
Paul Heslop
sounds...erm, delicious. Of course you could just go for snakebites...
half cider and half lager. I was a little silly as a drinker. I hated
beer so much I switched to spirits, which I hated almost as much, so I
started flavouring them (before alcopops were invented) and became
addicted to Pernod and orange. The real problem with this stuff is I
could drink a heck of a lot of it while still inside a building, but
cold air would have the effect of rendering me insane and blind within
seconds. I could leave a pub stone cold sober and be found singing songs
to the white lines in the middle of the road outside.
elag
At least you didn't try to snort them. Anyway, everyone knows the
really cool people don't need alcohol to have fun. They just spin
around a few times then lie down and watch the stars rotate.
Paul Heslop
:O) I think you just hit on why i could never stand alcohol. When my
eldest was old enough she begged me to take her on a ride at the
funfair. I hadn't been on one since my teens. When it stopped it was ME
who was trying to bring up my lunch on the grass while she stood
giggling at me.
--
Paul. (and all you men are slime)
elag
It is interesting that people enjoy intentionally
frightening/disorienting themselves. I suppose it makes up for
sedentary an mundane lifestyles which rarely get the blood and
adrenaline flowing. Most people, of course, prefer "risks" which are
actually tightly controlled.
Then there are guys like these:
Paul Heslop
Heh, nutters! :O) I think my ultimate scare would be that ride which
they built on top of a skyscraper. Not the one where it's a spike, but
an actual rollercoaster type. I caught it on the discovery channel or
something yonks ago but I'm damned if I know where it is... but it
comprises two great fears, the rollercoaster itself and the skyscraper's
height! EEK!
--
Paul. (This machine will, will not communicate)
elag
I'm not sure which one that might be. I saw one at the Stratosphere
Tower in Vegas, which has a big observation deck on top, about a
thousand feet above the Las Vegas skyline. Running
around the top of the observation area there is a tiny coaster called
the High Roller. I didn't ride it though.
I did ride one at "New York, New York" which was interesting in that it
travels "inside" the casino and "outside" the kitschy recreation of the
skyline. This isn't the sort of thing I'd normally go for but I was in
Vegas for a convention so I figured I may as well experience it to the fullest.
> but it comprises two great fears, the rollercoaster itself and the skyscraper's
> height! EEK!
I take it then that skydiving is out?
Paul Heslop
> > but it comprises two great fears, the rollercoaster itself and the skyscraper's
> > height! EEK!
>
> I take it then that skydiving is out?
Heh, we were just discussing this the other day. I worked in a mill as a
teenager and we used to pile cardboard boxes in one of the delivery bays
and dives from the top floor (about five stories up!) onto the boxes. I
guess the fear made it an extra buzz for me, or my stupidity was greater
than my fear, cos it still scared the heck out of me even as I did it.
JBE...@nyc.rr.com
http://www.thesource.gov.au/talkitup/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1119