Dada.
Disturbed42
You can use as many definitions as you like.
Go.
brandon...@my-deja.com
Surrealism is the mind in its natural state, free from repression.
I am not an expert on Dada, but I see it as:
1) a pessimistic rejection of, and an attempt at destroying, what
passed for culture and art in the 1920's
2) a blind and violent search for something to replace culture and art
Its been awhile since I read-up on Dada so I'm probably wrong.
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Before you buy.
Disturbed42
>
>I am not an expert on Dada, but I see it as:
>1) a pessimistic rejection of, and an attempt at destroying, what
>passed for culture and art in the 1920's
>2) a blind and violent search for something to replace culture and art
>
>Its been awhile since I read-up on Dada so I'm probably wrong.
I don't know a lot about Dada either, that's why I asked the question. At first
I thought of saying that Surrealism is the dream, and Aadaism is the nightmare.
But that's wrong. Dreams and nightmares are the same.
I think the key difference is that Dadaism is a rebellion, and Surrealism is an
exploration. With Dadaism you look at something (the status-quo, whatever), and
tear it down on purpose, whereas with Surrealism you sort of ignore it and go
off and do your own thing. Dada is like postmodernism but much more nihilistic.
But I'm probably wrong, so someone correct me.
slate
"Disturbed42" <distu...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001030043705...@ng-ma1.aol.com...
Dadaism was really just a precursor to postmodernism, in that it began the
lashings against modernity way back in the day. It sought to deface the
value and meaning, eliminate the institution of art. It's really a quite
interesting and exciting thing, but impossible, for the most part, to
continue today.
Where dadaism addressed art specifically, the postmodern philosophies which
we currently live under address *everything*. In that respect, it is even
more nihilistic than dadaism. Nietzsche called nihilism the 'fate of
modernity', a fate to be met with joy and enthusiasm, in his opinion. He
went nuts, but what can you say? He was right in a way. (Everyone who's on
anti-depressants, raise your hands...)
Um, yes. Surrealism... never surrendered meaning. Sure, the meaning
is often intangible and beyond grasp, but at least one can sense that it's
being alluded to. It offers a sort of 'enlightenment'. It's often grouped
in with dadaism as a fellow answer to modernism, but in my eyes, it always
seemed to fit into the Modern quite well (or at least moreso than being at
all akin to what would become the Postmodern).
What surrealism /did/ do, was that it was in many ways quite sensational,
and thus peaked the interests of low culture, which the High Modernist felt
to be a taboo for High Art. In that respect, surrealism and dadaism were
similiar.
Disturbed42
>in with dadaism as a fellow answer to modernism, but in my eyes, it always
>seemed to fit into the Modern quite well (or at least moreso than being at
>all akin to what would become the Postmodern).
>
I'm going to ramble on, here, in an attempt to help me figure things out:
I've done some reading up on Dadaism just in the past couple hours, and see
that Dada was a direct, specific reaction (they called it a revolution), out of
which grew Surrealism. That, and one other reason, I think, are why Surrealism
and Dada are so often grouped together. The second reason is that they often
feature the same sorts of "surreal" (in the more common vernacular) images and
odd juxtapositions. Not entirely abstract, based in some sort of reality, but
still somehow incongruous, at least on the surface. The motivation is
different, but at times the result is similar.
Dada is also very ironic in nature. Deliberately poking fun at, or mocking
culture and art, especially with "ready-mades" such as the picture of the Mona
Lisa with a moustache drawn on it (I've forgetten the name of the piece.)
I think Dada started as a deliberate, uncontrolled reaction, and when it was
over, people then stepped back and examined what they had been doing, forming
that into the philosophy we now call Surrealism. They realized that they had
been looking to the subconscious, and the more nebulous workings of the mind
(with some of the work, at least; the more ironic pieces were flat-out mockery)
as a source.
I definitely agree that Dadaism isn't something that can be continued today.
As before, I could be completely erroneous (and no doubt pedestrian or even
obtuse to some of you) in all this, and welcome correction.
Nikolaus Maack
>I don't know a lot about Dada either, that's why I asked the question. At
>nightmare. But that's wrong. Dreams and nightmares are the same.
How about this then?
Dada points at the world and laughs, saying, "It's a chaotic mess with no
sense to it!"
Surrealism points at the world and tries to react with the appropriate
emotion for the particular moment, saying, "It's a chaotic mess with sense
to it!"
Dada says that all social structure is bullshit and there is no meaning.
Go crazy and wild.
Surrealism says that all social structure is bullshit and there is a
meaning, but it is so complicated and chaotic and profoundly hidden that
it's difficult to see it. Go crazy and wild, but in an authentic way that
recognizes this inexpressable pattern.
I'm probably wrong, but I don't think I'm wrong, which makes me doubly
wrong. Neat!
Nik
--
NOW AVAILABLE! Art by Nik in mass produced formats!
'L. Ron' t-shirts, coffee mugs, and mouse pads.
Just click: http://www.cafepress.com/nikart
boiled guts of byrds
Jean-Jacqu...@wanadoo.fr
>How would you define the difference between dadaism and surrealism?
>You can use as many definitions as you like.
dadaism is anarchism from right, and surrealism is the reverse,
anarchism from left.
--
UBU
La paix est fort bonne de soi;
J'en conviens; mais de quoi sert-elle
Avec des ennemis sans foi?
jean de la fontaine.
Beingthere
> How would you define the difference between dadaism and surrealism?
> You can use as many definitions as you like.
> Go.
I've just read about this, but am not much wiser. My impression is that Dada
was a reaction against the status quo, but surrealism was er... no sorry,
it's gone.
boiled guts of byrds
wrote:
>dadaism is anarchism from right, and surrealism is the reverse,
>anarchism from left.
>--
I disagree...
john adams
Disturbed42 wrote in message
<20001030064806...@ng-cb1.aol.com>...
Well, i should definitely disagree to this, because, if for no better other
reason, the flies are born
through the little hiccups of june-time, and I have ruled out any other
suggestions.
Dada was born through revolution, but somewhat counter to the 'nihilist'
view of it it was not revolution into nothingness, rather it was often
specific in its reaction to common notions of art/creation,society,
tradition, establishment, government, and so on. The trouble often seems to
lie
in the fact that there was no set formula to go about most of this.
And so maybe the only thing to seperate what constitutes 'dada' is either
through a recounting of it historically or actual involvment within a dada
group, or just as easily existing as an attitude of mind today.
I believe surrealism (relative to dada) involved itself more thoroughly
with methods, but still not forumulas, of achieving some of the same goals
and perhaps yet others more clearly, with a stronger vision towards freedom,
beauty, love, dreams, the marvelous, or in one word, for better and
worse...'surreality'.
So, in speaking in terms of past and current invovlements, the word
continues to have meaning, which helps to set it aside from say horse shoe
tossing for instance, or whatever is the latest most common misconception to
stir about in corners and the mainstream.
john
ron
intellectuals that ended up in Zurich to avoid what they saw as a pointless
war. A good bit of Europe was in war torn shambles. Statesmen would stand up
and declare rational and logical solutions to all of this misery. However,
nothing changed. The Dadaist thought that traditional anti-art and anti
rational in general was the best way to express their outrage. So they begin
the task of forming a group of revolutionary thinkers that formed a core and
the first kind of things they did was performance. Like doing what we would
call, "performance art". Something as simple as three or four poet's reading
aloud at the same time from their own work while someone kept a drum beat going
in the background. The idea of "automatism", was introduced. Lines were
randomly cut from newspapers and joined to form a poem would be an example. It
was a reaction to the inhumanity of war and the fact that rational and logic
and high ideas would not stop the war. Dada=hobby horse. A knife was stabbed
into a german french dictionary and the point landed on the word dada. The core
group of writers thought this was perfect. They liked automatism as it took
away procedure and systems of order. A complete rebellion against what was art
was supposed to be about. They mocked the self serving politics and horrors of
war with nonsensical responses.
Well...it's late...more on this later...interesting posts tho'...
n6
brandon...@my-deja.com
> I've done some reading up on Dadaism just in the past couple hours,
> and see that Dada was a direct, specific reaction (they called it a
> revolution), out of which grew Surrealism. That, and one other
> reason, I think, are why Surrealism and Dada are so often grouped
> together.
Well, we've had this discussion here before and never really come to a
good conclusion. I basically don't feel comfortable attaching
Surrealism to Dada with the idea that it grew out of Dada. I'm not even
sure if Dada was anything but a vague spirit of rebellion. Most
historians divide Dada by the cities of orientation to grasp it in a
more detailed understanding, and I would argue that what is called
Paris Dada was really just the soon-to-be Surrealists carving out their
own methods under the Dada name (a sort of pre-Surrealism). Breton's
wheels were already turning before Dada, and they continued to turn
during Dada and after Dada. Breton's "Two Dada Manifestoes" reads more
like two under-developed Surrealist manifestoes, and by this time he is
already singing the praises of Lautreamont and Rimbaud (in "For Dada"),
interviewing Freud, and talking heavily about poetry. Its also somewhat
mysterious that Robert Motherwell included a sample of The Magnetic
Fields in his "The Dada Painters and Poets: An Anthology" since most
agree that The Magnetic Fields was really the first Surrealist text.
Parry
Gee, no one’s asked this question in almost two months. Here’s a
cut-and-paste of the last time I attempted an answer:
Dada and surrealism are closely linked but with one crucial difference.
Dada represented a comprehensive negation of bourgeois values (of art,
sexual mores, reason, religion, nationalism, war, lineage, capitalism,
etc.). But after the negation, what? The repetition of increasingly
nonsensical and arbitrary acts? A faction of the group feared Dada was
becoming a dog & pony act, and so surrealism developed as “the negation
of the negation,” determined to be more directed in its confrontation
and more penetrating into significant issues.
-- Parry
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johamar
Disturbed42 wrote:
Dadaism is black, Surrealism is glowing white.
john adams
johamar wrote in message <3A002C72...@mi.is>...
Johamar, you are a bundle of seven or eight or so glowing white roses.
john
ruth__g...@my-deja.com
Ruth
ruth__g...@my-deja.com
"john adams" <johnqa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
johamar
john adams wrote:
Funny that you mention roses, because I was thinking
of a plant with black roots and a white rose.
john adams
johamar wrote in message <3A01E88D...@mi.is>...
I know, i was sitting on the porch knitting a sweater made of butterfly
wings
when i'd heard a soft rustling in the rose bush, that was really more like
an
involuntary whisper.
D. Whitney Quinn
just subscribed to this group by chance (yeah right), and came across this
thread. man o man am i in the right place. i believe that brandon freels is
the most historically accurate, but it's also valid to examine the
differences in approach - dada being anti-technology as a reaction against
the horrors of world war one, and surrealism's contention that reality lies
in the dream state. i think dada can still work as an approach...anyone
familiar with captain beefheart's music?
anyway, just wanted to introduce myself, and perhaps add that the great
philosopher and masticator lou costello once said, "when love flies innuendo,
money goes out the door."
d. whitney quinn
Nikolaus Maack
> hi everybody,
Hi, D. Whitney Quinn. Funky name. Are you any relation to the fictional
character Dr. Quinn medicine woman? I ask because it is my never-ending
fantasy to break both my legs in a nasty fall and have Dr. Quinn nurse me
back to health by feeding me bits of food which she first swishes around
the inside of her vaginal cavity.
> just subscribed to this group by chance (yeah right), and came across this
> thread.
Freud said that there's no such thing as accidents, but he never drove a
car through rush hour traffic. Carl Jung drove an eighteen-wheeler
between therapy gigs, so he was a little more on the ball. Both men were
a great influence on Andrew Breetone, who found surrealism in an orchard
one spring. He worked as a bicycle courrier for twelve years, so he knew
Freud was full of excremental fudge.
(Breetone? What sort of noise does cheese make when no one is around to
hear it?)
> anyway, just wanted to introduce myself, and perhaps add that the great
> philosopher and masticator lou costello once said, "when love flies innuendo,
> money goes out the door."
Welcome to the surrealism slums. You'll be issued a blanket and a tiny
corner of intellectual territory which you are expected to defend with a
pointed stick. Stab first, ask questions later. After I stab someone, I
tend to ask, "Did that hurt?" or "Are you dead?" If they answer me with
anything other than a scream, I stab them again. Sometimes I stab them
again anyway, for kicks.
All kidding aside for two seconds -- which is about as long as I can hold
off my giggling karma -- welcome to alt.surrealism, enjoy your stay, and
please remember to keep your arms and legs outside the car at all times.
D. Whitney Quinn
Nikolaus Maack wrote:
> "D. Whitney Quinn" (dwq...@tcsn.net) writes:
> > hi everybody,
>
> Hi, D. Whitney Quinn. Funky name. Are you any relation to the fictional
> character Dr. Quinn medicine woman?
>
> Welcome to the surrealism slums. You'll be issued a blanket and a tiny
> corner of intellectual territory which you are expected to defend with a
> pointed stick.
stank you very much. i brought my own blanket, though. where do i plug in?
whitney
brandon...@my-deja.com
> familiar with captain beefheart's music?
Only the song on the Nuggets Box Set. I forgot the title. I have the
Captain Beefheart box set on hold at the library. It's been awhile. I
wonder if I'll ever get to hear it.
Nikolaus Maack
> stank you very much. i brought my own blanket, though. where do i plug in?
Open up the oyster inside your head, plug your appliances into the purple
hissing meat. It has enough energy to make a nuclear explosion look like
a popping zit.