Poems: July 21st, 2002
Morpheal
------------
An expression in a canister,
with a constant of teargas,
and the only game left
being the chasing of dead flowers
along chasms of social drift,
trying to wipe aside the excess of blue
from a too blue sky.
--------------------
Pink
----
It isn't even your own words
coming from your own mouth,
getting lost between channels,
leaving that pink brain fuzz
a candy slowly chewed,
dwindling away,
into new forms of boredom
that squirm around uncomfortably
under the scalp tight skin.
---------------------------
Cut
---
Another baseless rumour,
of getting on with it,
getting into it, going for it,
ends up cut,
carved into the night,
a neon bandaid, stuck there,
jutting out
from the broken skin
of deeply bruised facades,
cannot find even the lipstick
of a counterfeited smile
anywhere, anymore,
and everthing that can be held onto
has too hard and sharp an edge.
------------------------------
July 21, 2002
Morpheal
david rutkowski
Morpheal wrote:
> Seen Clearly
> ------------
>
> An expression in a canister,
clandestiny with a barrister
> with a constant of teargas,
billowing out of any near ass
> and the only game left
is Lydia with her pallet cleft
> being the chasing of dead flowers
which bring insipid dead showers
> along chasms of social drift,
orchasms of social misfits
> trying to wipe aside the excess of blue
stop eating crayons and messing up the toilet paper
> from a too blue sky.
take the too blue pill -- get calm
>
Morpheal
couplets. Rhymed poetry is a middle eastern mating ritual, and knowing
that I avoid writing rhymed couplets.... As good an excuse as any.
R.M.
david rutkowski
> Rhymed poetry is a middle eastern mating ritual, and knowing
> that I avoid writing rhymed couplets.... As good an excuse as any.
>
There's probably some Middle Eastern babe, naked under her
canvas sack, just waiting for a rhymed couplet and the
requisite "tah-dah" ...
The idea is song lyrics.
Morpheal
> There's probably some Middle Eastern babe, naked under her
> canvas sack, just waiting for a rhymed couplet and the
> requisite "tah-dah" ...
Go ahead, you David, go and make her day.
I am a caucasian descended from Teutonic knights and in many ways I am
caused to remember the crusades....I don't think that the two cultures
are reconcilable. So I would have to leave her to her own.
> The idea is song lyrics.
Exactly true... as to some rhymes, though few songs nowadays rhyme.
R.M.
david rutkowski
Morpheal wrote:
> david rutkowski wrote:
>
>
>>There's probably some Middle Eastern babe, naked under her
>>canvas sack, just waiting for a rhymed couplet and the
>>requisite "tah-dah" ...
>>
>
> Go ahead, you David, go and make her day.
>
> I am a caucasian descended from Teutonic knights and in many ways I am
> caused to remember the crusades....I don't think that the two cultures
> are reconcilable. So I would have to leave her to her own.
>
Ezergailis does have a tribal ring to it. Like those
French with "x" in their names. I'm a caucasian descended
from Polish falcons. We spied your holy war long before
satellites -- then strangely, we became one.
>
>>The idea is song lyrics.
>>
>
> Exactly true... as to some rhymes, though few songs nowadays rhyme.
I might be off the compass geographically, but lots
of rock fluff here indicates that the tired cliches
still rhyme, and still turn maiden hearts to gummy-bears.
>
> R.M.
>
Morpheal
> Ezergailis does have a tribal ring to it. Like those
> French with "x" in their names. I'm a caucasian descended
> from Polish falcons. We spied your holy war long before
> satellites -- then strangely, we became one.
I've always believed there is nothing holy about war other than
the holes it leaves in its wake. An appropriate pun,...
Actually the Teutonic knights came to force peace between the warring
tribes at the coast of the Baltic. One of the legendary places where
some of them settled was by the river in Riga, which later became an
important port city on the Baltic Sea.
As for the name, it speaks of the river and of a bird, perhaps as a kind
of sentinel standing watch over the waters. That would be perfectly
consistent with the story. The coat of arms as well, being melded into
that. The taking of coined local names is no surprise, tending to occur
among those who went to assert a distant and prolonged local control for
the purpose of enforcing peace. It was less likely to be provocative of
local wrath, than an outright foreign occupation tended to be.
Of course it is all legendary... but fortified towers were built... and
peace among the warring tribes was brought about.... by foreigners who
then merged into the local population.
R.M.
Marek Lugowski
Morpheal <morp...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
Maybe you need to re-educate yourself, Bob, and shed some of these
misconceptions. The Teutonic Knights were about as peace-bringing as
teh US Calvary at Wounded Knee.
I think these sentences capture what you mischaracterized above quite
succintly:
After a brief period (1221?25) in Transylvania, where it fought for
King Andrew II of Hungary against the Cumans, the order responded to a
call (1226) of the Polish Duke Conrad of Masovia for a crusade against
the Prussians.
...
The Prussians, who had repeatedly risen in revolt, were
reduced to serfdom (13th cent.), and German emigrants arrived to
settle the land.
More here: http://www.bartleby.com/65/te/TeutonKn.html
Or do your own research. Next you will tell us the crusaders were freedom
fighters...
-- Marek
>R.M.
Morpheal
> Or do your own research. Next you will tell us the crusaders were freedom fighters...
Yes, they were. Exactly that.
We freed Europe from foreign domination under an ideology that would
have meant that "western culture" ie. European, would have been
exterminated by the foreigners. We, you and I, write poetry today, and
live as we do, because of the crusades. Otherwise you would be a
Moslem.
R.M.
Jonathan Penton
news:3D44A681...@sympatico.ca...
That's a very interesting view of history. I'm not sure how to respond to
it, other than to point out that after reading about a dozen books on the
crusades, all written by Western authors, I've read nothing but views
contrary to yours.
Neither of us were there -- I could quote many historians, but I don't think
you'd believe me. One thing, though, we can see first-hand: Moslems write
poetry. Always have.
--
Jonathan Penton
http://www.unlikelystories.org
Morpheal
> That's a very interesting view of history. I'm not sure how to respond to it, other than to point out that after reading about a dozen books on the crusades, all written by Western authors, I've read nothing but views contrary to yours.
Simply put, the Vatican was the central intelligence and pentagon of its
time period. They used their outposts to gather dirt on various kingdoms
and other nobility who had troops at their disposal. They had enough on
everyone to gather together an army powerful enough to rid Europe of the
invaders and all threat of invasion. However it was very dicey. The
children's crusade was a lack of sufficient troops, not the mistake that
the historians tend to try to make of it. It really was dipping into the
last reserves in order to win the war. It was that brutal a fight. The
children did not simply gather up arms and go all on their own.... That
could never happen. They were sent because there were no more able
bodied men to send to battle.
We almost lost all of western culture and western history almost came to
an abrupt end.
If it had not been for the intelligence gathering and military
strategies of the Vatican,... you would be praying to Mecca at sunrise
and sunset now laddy.
> Neither of us were there -- I could quote many historians, but I don't think you'd believe me. One thing, though, we can see first-hand: Moslems write poetry. Always have.
No. I wouldn't believe you.
As for Moslems writing poetry,... you would have to discuss that subject
with them, not with me.
R.M.
Jonathan Penton
We are at an impasse then, since I believe you made almost all of this up.
> As for Moslems writing poetry,... you would have to discuss that subject
> with them, not with me.
Was my point unclear? You told Marek that he was a poet because he was not
Moslem. That's illogical, since we can all experience Moslem poetry first
hand.
Dr Paul Kinsler
> Was my point unclear? You told Marek that he was a poet because he was not
> Moslem. That's illogical, since we can all experience Moslem poetry first
> hand.
I read it to mean that Marek would be writing "Moslem poetry"
rather than "Western Poetry", rather than writing no poetry
at all. Going back and re-reding the post, it seems possible
to read it either way.
--
#Paul
Morpheal
> We are at an impasse then, since I believe you made almost all of this up.
You're obviously not a reincarnate, and you were not there. Enough said
on that subject. Now you will say I made this up too. ;->
> Was my point unclear? You told Marek that he was a poet because he was not Moslem. That's illogical, since we can all experience Moslem poetry first hand.
Not exactly what I said. I told he he could not have been a poet if
there had been no crusades freeing Europe for poetry and everything else
that we consider "freedom" within the domain of "western culture".
And don't now tell me that "western culture" is sphaggeti made in
Hollywood, but filmed on location in Spain.
R.M.
Morpheal
> I read it to mean that Marek would be writing "Moslem poetry"
> rather than "Western Poetry", rather than writing no poetry
> at all. Going back and re-reding the post, it seems possible
> to read it either way.
Doctor, doctor, is there a doctor in alt.surrealism ?
Anway, flip, flop, and kadoodle, it's a fact that Moslems do not
like poetry unless it is the Koran. It's kind of the last poem for those
dudes. They don't write poetry once they start into that, and begin at
the contest of memorizing as much of it as they possibly can. It's
contest in poetry, so to speak, but with only one poem. It's a bit
weird. I do agree that they accept some instances of rhyming poetry as a
sort of pornography meant solely for courtship purposes. A bawdy thing,
and a kind of madness, when a man, as does the elephant, must... enter
into matrimony or go completely insane. You can see why non Koranic
verse would happen when a man goes insane.
To them, the Moslems, I am totally, completely, insane. I am a poet who
writes verse about themes that would make even the most liberal moslem
shudder in dread.... It's my species of madness, not their's.
As to matrimonial... well if the right dark souled poetess came along,
slender, intense, a little bit gothic,... then surely I must.... in the
same manner as the elephants must. Another form of madness, but perhaps
a little more divine madness of a sort, in that it could be ecstatic.
The merging of ancient Greece with later forms of altered consciuosness,
I suppose. A bit gothic and oriental, would be splendid. I love the
looks of some oriental women and their often difference of disposition
to the average western woman. Ah well... enough fantasizing.... back to
madness.....
Robert Morpheal
Jonathan Penton
> Dr Paul Kinsler wrote:
>
> > I read it to mean that Marek would be writing "Moslem poetry"
> > rather than "Western Poetry", rather than writing no poetry
> > at all. Going back and re-reding the post, it seems possible
> > to read it either way.
>
> Doctor, doctor, is there a doctor in alt.surrealism ?
>
> Anway, flip, flop, and kadoodle, it's a fact that Moslems do not
>
> like poetry unless it is the Koran. It's kind of the last poem for those
> dudes. They don't write poetry once they start into that, and begin at
> the contest of memorizing as much of it as they possibly can. It's
> contest in poetry, so to speak, but with only one poem. It's a bit
> weird. I do agree that they accept some instances of rhyming poetry as a
> sort of pornography meant solely for courtship purposes. A bawdy thing,
> and a kind of madness, when a man, as does the elephant, must... enter
> into matrimony or go completely insane. You can see why non Koranic
> verse would happen when a man goes insane.
I see.
Have you ever heard of the Sufis?
elag
In any case it is a patent falsehood to state that: "Moslems do not like
poetry unless it is the Koran". In fact there exists a large body of
poetry by Muslims in Arabic as well as other languages and not all of it
is "religious" or "pornography" as Mr. Ezergailis suggests.
an example in english translation:
"The Storm" by Ibn Shahayd (992-1034, Cordoba, Andalusia)
The
sky darkens:
flowers open their mouths
and search for their udders
of the nurturing rain
as battalions of black
water-laden clouds
parade majestically past
flashing their golden swords.
and a modern example:
Life in the Corporate World
by Behzad Sadeghi
Behind the dark, tinted corporate windows,
that have been tightly sealed and insulated
to keep in sound and heat;
body heat that is,
seasons are changing.
Snow flakes
dancing harmoniously, as they slide down the window pane,
are a testimony to the earth's rotation.
And as the snow flakes melt away on their traveling path
so with them melts away
my every conscious moment,
but my moments have the luxury
of melting away in the corporate world.
In the corporate world
life is simulated using scheduling charts
calculators, calendars and modeling schemes,
and it is accentuated by morning conversations
and coffee breaths.
In the corporate world
the only living pulse
beats within the veins of the office memos
that circulate freely
and abundantly
from one desk to another.
Their blood-pressure is measured
by my manager,
as he often does in his spare time,
using advanced computer techniques.
A fellow corporate colleague
strides by my office,
as he dodges the attack of the flying memos.
He greets me with a fake smile,
and annoyed
by the interruption of my thoughts
I smile back;
a fake smile, of course.
Through the half-lit hallways
I see the office memos
in the shape of paper-planes
colliding with the sealed tinted glass windows
seeming to want to leave these perimeters
as if wishing for the cold real world
outside the temperature-controlled corporate world.
Jonathan Penton
news:3D4754F1...@cloud9.net...
<2 excellent poems snipped for brevity>
Oh, sure, beat me to the punch. :) It's easy to point out Morpheal's
falsehoods. I was hoping to force him to point out his own falsehoods, which
is more entertaining.
If anyone's curious, I'd also like to mention my friend Rofiah Breen, who
follows the Islamic Subud tradition, and writes poetry in English. Some of
her poems are at http://www.iracohen.org/unlikely/breen.html
Morpheal
> I see.
> Have you ever heard of the Sufis?
They are usually considered a rather radical sect, and far from
mainstream. There are always extreme variants of everything, but they
tend to be a small minority. Particularly within the world's most
conservative ideology.
R.M.
Morpheal
> In any case it is a patent falsehood to state that: "Moslems do not like poetry unless it is the Koran". In fact there exists a large body of poetry by Muslims in Arabic as well as other languages and not all of it is "religious" or "pornography" as Mr. Ezergailis suggests.
You are citing exceptions, not the more common viewpoint. I have met
some and found there is nothing but excessive psychological conflict
between what can be loosely described as "western culture" and "moslem
culture". It's very severe. Poetry is one subject where there is some
added conflict and I really do not want to go into all the ideological
intricacies of what and why.
R.M.
Morpheal
> If anyone's curious, I'd also like to mention my friend Rofiah Breen, who follows the Islamic Subud tradition, and writes poetry in English. Some of her poems are at http://www.iracohen.org/unlikely/breen.html
That too is not mainstream, but be that as it may, there are universally
different standards for the behaviour of women and the behaviour of men
within moslem cultural and social practices. Women are allowed to break
a lot of rules that men are forced to follow. In fact they are seen as
being, in effect, a different species, with a different fate at death,
than the men are allowed. Although I cannot say that women are
encouraged to write poetry there either. To the contrary. That they can
get away with it without as severe a peer pressure being exerted against
them, is essentially true, unless they chance to live under a
fundamentalist government. In the latter instance they would have a
worse fate from the religious government which usually does not appear
to tolerate even women writing poetry, much less men doing so.
R.M.
Morpheal
> Osama bin Laden writes (or wrote) poetry.
Not that I know of. He was quoting Hadith, which is the massive body of
exegesis and life stories concerning the early figures and founder of
the religion. The translations seem poetic, but really, it's not poetry
as you know it.
That he knew as much Hadith and Koran as he did, is what elevated him in
status above various clerics. He who has memorized more Koran and more
Hadith is higher in the religious hierarchy than those who have less of
it stored in their minds. Why some very prominent senior clergy followed
bin Laden, supporting his viewpoint.
> You're not a poet.
I write some poetry therefore I am a poet, amongst other things.
I am definitely NOT a moslem though. I found there is too much conflict,
internal and external, for someone who was born into "western culture"
and assimilated that, even partially, as I have. However, I have more
than an academic knowledge of most ideologies. As well as some basic
academic background in that area. In part there are different
preferences, attitudes, and acculturations, that are necessary, and
cannot easily if at all be assimilated by a non Islamic westerner, so as
to be able to relate and live within that foreign system. It is my
opinion that those conflicts and psychological pressures are too severe
for anyone who was not born into indoctrination within that system. It
is too conservative and different from what we have learned in the
western world in our upbringing and education, for anything but a source
of frustration and anxiety, socially, culturally, and emotionally. I
even believe that we evolve different needs, as well as wants, within
western society, that create even larger barriers between them and us,
and in a very conservative culture and system THEY always want all their
preferences as to meeting of needs and wants, observed religiously,
without deviation. It becomes far too complex and difficult.
> zzz
I seem to be under attack.
The deadly labelling as to being deemed too boring to be allowed to
live..... seems to be happening. Labels of that sort do tend to do vast
and irreparable damage... so I wonder who is behind it. I know I am no
more boring than average and certainly less boring than many. Then
again, what I know does not matter, it is how I am labelled, and how I
am presented, by whomever has the power to label and present, that has
more determining power....
So who is wagging your mouth, I mean hands ? I want to know who the
bastard or bitch is that is pounding on me. The one pulling your stupid
little strings....
R.M.
Marek Lugowski
Morpheal <morp...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
...
>Anway, flip, flop, and kadoodle, it's a fact that Moslems do not
>
>like poetry unless it is the Koran.
>Robert Morpheal
Poetry in Pakistan
It may not seem quite right to speak of Urdu poetry in terms of
Indian and Pakistani poetry, but it would be reasonable to say that
the new urdu poetry in Pakistan is remarkable for its variety and
vitality. Emerging from the common sources and traditions of history
and culture, poetry in Pakistan has achieved its own frames of
reference, its own tones of voice, its own notes of protest, largely
because of the socio-political compulsions. Its poetics is
characterized by a healthy adherence to tradition and somewhat virile
improvisation of the traditional modes of expression.
The new poet in Pakistan has created his own blend of the lyrical
with the prosaic, the manifest with the allegorical. he expressed his
own predicament and that of the world around him which arouse both
hope and fear, dreams and despair. Faiz Ahmad Faiz, Majeed Amjad and
Muneer Niyazi, with their vitality and strength, have led us to the
still more varied and vibrant Sermad Sehbai, Asghar Nadeem Syed, Afzal
Ahmad Syed, Zeeshan Sahil and the vital feminine voices of Kishwar
Nahed, Fehmida Reyaz, Nasreen Anjum Bhatti, Sara Shagufta, Shaista
Habib and Azra Abbas. All these and many more form part of a
formidable poetic scene. They are rich in their experience and
execution and may well be placed among the prominent Third World
voices that are being heard today with great curiosity and interest.
Modernism is an international phenomenon and modern Urdu poetry is
a part of it. It has made its mark with its recognizably individual
poetics. The Urdu poet is now free to make his choice; he has drawn
upon sources both indigenous and foreign, literary and extra-literary,
including philosophy, sociology and mythology. The issues regarding
the form of the poem, the language, experiential capital and aesthetic
dimensions have been resolved. the modern reader has finally
identified his poem.
[ From the introduction to the book ' Fire and the Rose ' ]
Rahman, Anisur ; Fire and the Rose; an anthology of modern Urdu
poetry; Rupa & Co. 1995.
More here: http://home.earthlink.net/~hodak/hist_urdu.htm
And now for something completely different, Malaysia:
Pantun
Perhaps the most basic form of Malay poetry, the pantun (quatrain)
reflects the charm and diplomacy of the Malay persona.
Unlike most forms of poetry, however, the pantun used to be an
integral part of Malay life. It is used in proverbs, in formal
situations such as asking for a maiden's hand in marriage, when a
direct approach in prose would have been in appropriate or, if you
believe old Malay movies, when two warriors engage in a battle of
words before entering into mortal combat.
Pantuns are not only recited, but often exchanged. Hence, they are
said to be "sold" and "bought".The exchange can be hilarious or
diplomatic, as the situation dictates.
...
More here: http://www.pointpub.com/kampungnet/pantun.html
And since three makes a tri-color, here's Palestine:
Bethlehem
Secrets live in the space between our footsteps.
The words of my grandfather echoed in my dreams,
as the years kept his beads and town.
I saw Bethlehem, all in dust, an empty town
with a torn piece of newspaper lost in its narrow streets.
Where could everyone be? Graffiti and stones answered.
And where was the real Bethlehem--the one my grandfather came from?
Handkerchiefs dried the pain from my hands. Olive trees and tears continued to remember.
I walked the town until I reached an old Arab man dressed in a white robe.
I stopped him and asked, "Aren't you the man I saw in my grandfather's stories?"
He looked at me and left. I followed him--asked him why he left?
He continued walking. I stopped, turned around and realized
he had left me the secrets in the space between his footsteps.
Nathalie Handal
(Poetry in unattributed translation)
More here, Bob -- including Nathalie's picture -- you just might fall in love.
http://www.sakakini.org/poets/nathalie-index.htm
The 20 Palestinian poets featured on the same site (Khalil Sakakini
Cultural Cetre): http://www.sakakini.org/poets/poets.html
Hope this helps in the face of more dis/misinformation -- evidence of
contemporary mainstream Moslem cultures and their poetry, at three
different sample points on our planet, easily gleaned in a few moments on
the open internet.
-- Marek
--
http://www.enteract.com/~marek/
Morpheal
> Poetry in Pakistan
> Hope this helps in the face of more dis/misinformation -- evidence of
contemporary mainstream Moslem cultures and their poetry, at three
different sample points on our planet, easily gleaned in a few moments
on the open internet.
The moslem society is, on the whole, very hierarchical. You are
referring to the lowest echelon. I was referring to the mainstream. If
the lowest echelon is to be allowed, by the higher levels in the
hierarchy, to advance, they will have to toe the line and follow the
more conservative rules. That means giving up their traditional modes of
local expression, in Urdu for instance, in favour of traditional Arabic
Koran and Hadith.
Pakistani poetry is very frowned upon... and so is the Pakistaani's
typical lack of Arabic, particularly Kufic Arabic.
Sorry to disappoint you Marek, but you're wrong again.
R.M.
Marek Lugowski
Morpheal <morp...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>The moslem society is, on the whole, very hierarchical. You are
>referring to the lowest echelon. I was referring to the mainstream. If
>the lowest echelon is to be allowed, by the higher levels in the
>hierarchy, to advance, they will have to toe the line and follow the
>more conservative rules. That means giving up their traditional modes of
>local expression, in Urdu for instance, in favour of traditional Arabic
>Koran and Hadith.
...
You glossed without comment the grounded and mainstream, and not at
all Koranic or Hadith traditions -- and already deeply culturally
entrenched, indispensibly rooted -- the Malay and Palestinian poetry
in "the Moslem world" that I pointed at.
And, to apply your image by analogy, perhaps if one wanted to make it
as a poet laureate of these United States of America, one might have
to give up writing "fuck" in newly minted poems :) -- or never be
a professed atheist to start with. Hmmm?
What is your point about higher levels in hierarchy, conservatism and
toeing lines? If that's Islam, then we are very Islamic already.
Your initial claim, entirely false, was that Moslems don't like poetry
other than religious in the vein of One True Faith. I'm making you
hip to the fact that pluralities of confession (including atheism)
have always existed, side-by-side, within predominantly Moslem as well
as Christian cultures, and that, in turn, these two cultures existed
(and continue to exist in places) as niches embedded in earlier
mainstreams (read Par Lagerkvist's Barabbas, for one excellent English
translation of an example). This braiding of traditions and
co-existence is a historical constant, and it carries lots of water --
like brooks of clear water scatered over a forest -- and was true of
many seemingly monolithic "mainstreams". Perhaps you should read up
on the city of Cordoba in the Middle Ages and its cosmopolitanism, as
you are hell-bent on denying its existence now in the Moslem world,
while other folks are desperate to keep it alive *here*
(Chicago/Toronto). Watching Moslems with an inverted telescope as you
do does not breed any understanding. It festers alienation and
ignorance. And fear. And As Peter Gabriel's wife Jill wrote and he
sang (2nd untitled solo album, 1978):
Fear, Fear, she's the mother of Violence,
Making me tense to watch the way she breed.
...
The only way you know she's there
Is the subtle flavor in the air.
Getting hard to breathe,
Getting hard to believe in anything at all
But Fear.
In light of this, as you also said some nonsense about women and
poetry under Islam, here's more counter-evidence to all of your
compounded say. It's in the form of a a pointer to a bilingual,
facing-page edition of some size and scope. Since it's in English,
you and I are in luck:
THE POETRY OF ARAB WOMEN
A Contemporary Anthology
Price: $20.00 paberback
Pages: 352
Published by
Interlink, 2000
ISBN 1-56656-374-7
edited by Nathalie Handal
This anthology was prepared to eradicate invisibility: to provide an
introduction to Arab women poets, to make visible the works of a great
number of Arab women poets who are virtually unknown to the West, to
make visible many Arab-American women poets who are marginalized
within the American literary and ethnic scenes, and to demonstrate the
wide diversity of Arab women's poetry, which extends to other
languages besides Arabic and English (as in the case of Arab women
poets writing in French and Swedish).
This anthology seeks to unite Arab women poets from all over the Arab
world and abroad, regardless of what language they write in and
whether they were born in an Arab country or not. Its aim is to bridge
the religious, linguistic and geographical spaces existing among Arab
women worldwide. With the exception of Oman and Sudan, every Arab
country has been represented in this volume. Included are Arab women
in exile or living in non-Arab countries, and women poets of Arab
descent from Europe and North America. The volume incorporates the
most accomplished Arab women poets of the twentieth century, including
those of the distinctive new generation. It opens a door to a new and
fast changing world where women are an extremely vital force in both
literary and social terms.
The content is bilingual - the Arabic and English appearing side by
side - and is divided into chronological periods, starting with the
Jahiliyya (4000 BC-622 AD) and continuing through the Islamic, Umayyad
and Abbasid to the Andalus period (711-1492). Much of the poetry
consists of short fragments of verse accompanied by introductory
information on each poet. The reader is presented not only with an
historical glimpse of female Arab poetry and a picture of how women
saw the world of men, but also with the compelling significance of the
religion and politics of the times and the blazing independence of
these women. Their writing reflects feelings of passionate equality,
together with those of subtle, sharply witty superiority all of which
are directed towards their menfolk.
The introduction provides a historical overview for understanding
contemporary Arab women's poetry, including the singularity as well as
the shared trends and movements in the work of these poets. Translated
by distinguished translators and poets from around the world, The
Poetry of Arab Women showcases the work of 83 poets, among them: Elmaz
Abi-Nader, Fawziyya Abu-Khalid, Etel Adnan, 'Aisha Arnaout,
Andree Chedid, Nada al-Hage, Hoda Hussein, Salma Khadra Jayyusi,
Joanna Kadi, Fatma Kandil, Venus Khoury-Ghata, Nazik al-Mala'ika, Houda
al-Na'mani, Lisa Suhair Majaj, Zakiyya Malallah, D.H.Melhem, Naomi
Shihab Nye, Amina Said, Munia Samara, Lina Tibi and Fadwa Tuqan.
More here (including cover shot + link to Classical Poems by Arab Women):
http://www.middleeastuk.com/culture/books/arab_women_poetry.htm
--
http://www.enteract.com/~marek/
elag
>
> elag wrote:
>
> > In any case it is a patent falsehood to state that: "Moslems do not like poetry unless it is the Koran". In fact there exists a large body of poetry by Muslims in Arabic as well as other languages and not all of it is "religious" or "pornography" as Mr. Ezergailis suggests.
>
> You are citing exceptions, not the more common viewpoint. I have met
> some and found there is nothing but excessive psychological conflict
> between what can be loosely described as "western culture" and "moslem
> culture". It's very severe.
The fact that there is some conflict is obvious. None the less, what
you said is easily proven wrong by the plentitude of works by well known
and well regarded poets both modern and historical (e.g. Abdul Wahab
al-Bayati). Islam is not as monolithic as you make it out to be. Not
all Muslims are fundamentalists and long traditions of secular Arabic
poetry continue today.
Repressive regimes and fanatical clerics can't stamp out these
traditions and they can't decide unilaterally what is and what is not in
the mainstream.
Neither can you.
Poetry is one subject where there is some
> added conflict and I really do not want to go into all the ideological
> intricacies of what and why.
You really ought to look at the material in Marek's post again... and do
more research. The world is large and complex and your thesis should be
flexible enough to contain it.
Central CPU
"Morpheal" <morp...@sympatico.ca> wrote
> It's perfectly ok to do that, of course. Though i detest rhyming
> couplets. Rhymed poetry is a middle eastern mating ritual, and knowing
> that I avoid writing rhymed couplets.... As good an excuse as any.
>
> R.M.
I think I see the problem here, you are insane. Rhymed couplets are
rare because it is difficult to write good ones, not for any other other
reason in any culture on this planet. I listen to shortwave radio and often
hear "Arabic" music. I suppose it is Arabic, I don't know for certain
because I don't speak Arabic and just skip over it. Yet the sound is
recognizable as anyone here would agree hearing it. I think some of it
though has a certain martial quality and other has religious tones. Perhaps
the language of music is not universal though.
As for someone mistaking your writing for a mating ritual, rhymed or
not, you should rest assured there is very little danger of that happening.
I think the most serious problem you should encounter with your "writing" is
that no one will guess at all what it means and few would care. Rhymed
couplets that make any sense are less likely to be mistaken for mating
rituals. If you really fear your writing being mistaken for a mating ritual
try making any sense.
--CCPU
Morpheal
> You glossed without comment the grounded and mainstream, and not at
> all Koranic or Hadith traditions -- and already deeply culturally
> entrenched, indispensibly rooted -- the Malay and Palestinian poetry
> in "the Moslem world" that I pointed at.
Yes, I ignored it. It is very fringe culture within the Islamic system.
There are always cultural rebels, even in the most conservative and
fundamentalist oriented traditions. My opinion is that the Islamic
system is the narrowest, most conservative, and most fundamentalist
system in the world today. Certainly the largest of its type, by a long
shot. What I was saying is, in essence, that what you are citing is not
genuinely Islamic. It is written by people who say that they are
moslems, but on a scale of very bad moslem to very good moslem, within
their own system of evaluation, those poets you mention fall to the very
bottom rungs on the ladder. Socially, culturally, very few if any people
ever want to be at the bottom of the food chain, or even at the bottom
of the pecking order within their own peer group or ideology. The social
pressure thing and rebels against conformity in an extremely conformity
oriented system, a totalist system, rivals eastern block communism of
the Cold War era. In fact it exceeds it in many instances. Why do you
think those two systems got along so remarkably well in some instances ?
They were both totalist systems.
Oddly enough poets had it rough in both systems. Poetry was under
constant attack, for its loose use of language, and its double
entendres, its freedom to say the unsayable, within communist societies.
The regimes there hate poetry because it can say the unsayable, and
force reading between the lines, in ways prose fails to accomplish. You
can send secret messages in poetic form, more easily, than in prose. So
too the totalist tendencies within predominantly Islamic cultures tend
to dislike poetry for political reasons as well as for traditional
religious reasons. The relation between their concepts of what a poet
is, what a revelation is, what a prophet is, etc. would need to be
considered to see why they tend to be very tough on poets. In fact Cat
Stevens is a typical example of someone who ended up climbing the
ladder. He recanted all his previous poetic efforts, as unacceptable and
wrongful, within an Islamic context. Cat was a poet. Now he is a "good
moslem" and an "example" in that system.
> And, to apply your image by analogy, perhaps if one wanted to make it
> as a poet laureate of these United States of America, one might have
> to give up writing "fuck" in newly minted poems :) -- or never be
> a professed atheist to start with. Hmmm?
Atheism is the most misunderstood and misrepresented belief on this
planet. Too often, simple mindedly believed to be the disbelief in the
existence of God. Actually it is more political in original intentions
and is not so much the disbelief in God, but a disbelief in the Theist
concept of God and God's role or purpose within the political order. It
was in fact a further separation of church and state, but got twisted
around into something other than its intentions.
Anyway.... I don't really see what you are on about. You are entering
into very different subject matter in that.
> What is your point about higher levels in hierarchy, conservatism and
> toeing lines? If that's Islam, then we are very Islamic already.
THEIR hierarchy, following THEIR rules. Their standards. We have
different social practices and different rules to their's. They don't
have a word for "love". There is no Arabic translation for it. They
don't believe in the same freedoms we cherish. They believe they are
prisoners, and the world is a jail, where death is the only bail for the
good who follow Islamic teachings thoroughly, while a hell of eternal
torture greets those who fail to follow Islamic teachings thoroughly
enough. The latter being the jail with no bail. Bail being gained only
by thorough following of the Islamic rules.
> Getting hard to believe in anything at all
> But Fear.
How very true, in many contexts.
> THE POETRY OF ARAB WOMEN
Marek, you did not pay attention to what I said. I said that women are
allowed to misbehave, in certain ways, and men are usually not allowed
to misbehave in those same ways without quite severe consequences. Women
are allowed poetry moreso than men. They don't fall down the social
ladder within Islamic culture if they write some poetry... but men tend
to be kicked right off the ladder if they write. Did I say write poetry
or simply "if they write" ? The latter. With extreme emphasis. It
causes a huge problem within Islamic tradition for men to write
ANYTHING. I won't go into the details, except to say that they are
conservative to a thousand years ago. Quoting Koran and Hadith is all
that is really permissible. Creating new strings of words, outside of
that, and particularly writing them, other than for very purely
pragmatic reasons of commerce, is really very very frowned upon. Prose
is frowned upon. Rushdie was an example of that. Moslems' are not
supposed to write prose either. It all ends up having to be examined, in
some situations, for signs of prophecy, and collected, and it becomes a
huge pain to them. So they discourage it. Poetry moreso than prose
because of its tendency to be harder to deal with, harder to interpret,
harder to decide whether it is the prophecy they are looking for or not.
Every original word produced by a moslem might be that prophecy, and so
most moslems choose to toe the line and NOT write anything. Most, but
not all. There are always exceptions.
R.M.
Morpheal
> The fact that there is some conflict is obvious. None the less, what
you said is easily proven wrong by the plentitude of works by well known
and well regarded poets both modern and historical (e.g. Abdul Wahab
al-Bayati). Islam is not as monolithic as you make it out to be. Not
all Muslims are fundamentalists and long traditions of secular Arabic
poetry continue today.
I said that THEY tend to NOT like it. Emphasis, not like it. The
emphasis cannot be strong enough in that regard. Social status is about
being liked or not being liked. So poets and writers in general are in a
bad situation. Most people want to be liked...but there are always some
in the crowd who deviate.
> Repressive regimes and fanatical clerics can't stamp out these
traditions and they can't decide unilaterally what is and what is not in
the mainstream.
Within countries that have Islamic governments they can and they will
stamp it out. That's their belief. They don't believe in freedom of
expression, in creativity with language, the way we do. They don't
believe in much of anything that we do. Pragmatic getting along within
the western marketplace is excepted. They do what they must do, within
other systems, and in fact they are permitted strictly economic,
pragmatic, relations with anyone,... any non moslems (so to speak)... in
most situations. There are a few exceptions where they have
superstitions. For instance one could be declined a position for a
western manufacturer of armoured vehicles destined for the middle east,
if the country of destination believed the worker is a "non moslem".
They believe that that would damage the quality of the vehicle so that
their moslem lives might be in greater danger. And so on... There are
exceptions, that sometimes happen, but for the most part economic
interaction with any is quite permissible as long as it is goods and
money in exchange by agreement. Limited to that. Nothing more, nothing
less.
R.M.
Morpheal
> I think I see the problem here, you are insane. Rhymed couplets are rare because it is difficult to write good ones,
Yes.... but the rule is that rhymed couplets are acceptable ONLY where
courtship is involved, and a kind of bawdy - half insane (let's say, by
their social standards) - expression of desire for intimate relation
within marriage to the woman... Men are believed to go mad, partially,
when they must marry. So they write poetry, sometimes, when they go mad.
However, if the rules are observed properly, then only rhyming couplets
are permissible. The constraint of the conservative culture tends to
inflict into even that expression of alleged "madness". No doubt
observations of animal behaviour, particularly elephants, had a lot to
do with their beliefs. Poetry outside of that context and outside of
rhyming couplets is generally, within Islamic circles, believed to be a
very bad thing. Sure, there are small groups that do produce and recite
religious poetry, but not mainstream Islamic practice. Those splinter
groups are generally not highly regarded by the mainstream, meaning
largest numbes and also most conservative, moslems. They don't do poetry
and tend to avoid rhyming couplets as much as anything else, with few
exceptions. I would say that some of them are absolutely paranoid about
poetic expression and avoid it like the superstitious avoid things that
go bump in the night. Freedom of expression as we know it, seems to
terrify quite a lot of THEM.
The difference between them and us.
Among many differences.
R.M.
Arlon Staywell
"Central CPU" <centr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote
> "Morpheal" <morp...@sympatico.ca> wrote
I think it is important to note here that shortwave is mostly talk and
news with very little music. I hear more "Arabic" music than talk though.
That means any talk, Koran or otherwise, since I also speak no Arabic. The
only music more frequent on shortwave is Spanish.
Arlon Staywell
arlon.s...@worldnet.att.net
Sick Mind
"Morpheal" <morp...@sympatico.ca> wrote
> Central CPU wrote:
>> I think I see the problem here, you are insane. Rhymed couplets are
>> rare because it is difficult to write good ones,
> Yes.... but the rule is that rhymed couplets are acceptable ONLY where
No, Bob, there is no such rule. You have a serious personality
disorder, and I should know because I have several myself. Are there people
like you in Islamic society? More so than in our culture? Yes to both
probably, but you are not healthy. Your mind is caught in traps. No high
Islamic official no matter how conservative would frown upon any verse
consistent with religious teachings even if it rhymed.
Sick Mind a.k.a. Mind Manner
boro...@worldnet.att.net
With enemies like me, who needs friends?
Saqib Virk
>
> Anway, flip, flop, and kadoodle, it's a fact that Moslems do not
> like poetry unless it is the Koran.
SV
It's a fact that you have no clue what you are talking about. Muslims,
for the most part, love poetry. Poetry is much more popular in most
Muslim countries then it is in the West.
> To them, the Moslems, I am totally, completely, insane.
SV
I doubt your ignorance would be taken as insanity.
> As to matrimonial... well if the right dark souled poetess came along,
> slender, intense, a little bit gothic,... then surely I must.... in the
> same manner as the elephants must. Another form of madness, but perhaps
> a little more divine madness of a sort, in that it could be ecstatic.
> The merging of ancient Greece with later forms of altered consciuosness,
> I suppose. A bit gothic and oriental, would be splendid. I love the
> looks of some oriental women and their often difference of disposition
> to the average western woman. Ah well... enough fantasizing.... back to
> madness.....
SV
Did you ever see those Saturday Night Live skits about the "goth" kid
in his basement... you remind me of that... pathetic.
--
Saqib Virk
Morpheal
> I think it is important to note here that shortwave is mostly talk and news with very little music. I hear more "Arabic" music than talk though. That means any talk, Koran or otherwise, since I also speak no Arabic. The only music more frequent on shortwave is Spanish.
You sure you are tuned to shortwave ?
The music that tends to be preferred is without lyrics and slow rather
than fast. There are exceptions and I have heard of chantlike dronings
of religious content, repetitive enough to drive any westerner half
insane..... but are you sure it was shortwave ? No further comment.
Radio frequency is still very very esoteric.
R.M.
elag
The only reason I ever bother to "debate" Mr. Ezergailis (aka Morpheal)
is that I think there should be information made available to
counterbalance his disinformation... in case there might be someone who
accepts his "authority".
C'est la Usenet.
Morpheal
> No, Bob, there is no such rule. You have a serious personality
disorder, and I should know because I have several myself. Are there
people like you in Islamic society? More so than in our culture? Yes
to both probably, but you are not healthy. Your mind is caught in
traps. No high Islamic official no matter how conservative would frown
upon any verse consistent with religious teachings even if it rhymed.
Verse cannot be truly consistent... as if it were then it would almost
invariably be a verbatin recitation of scripture. You might not
recognize it as such, and neither would I, but that's the trend.
As for personality disorders,... every culture is a disorder or a
complex of disorders. Western culture is its own complex of personality
disorders and Islamic is its own and the two are very different.
The definitions of sick are different. The defintions of insane are
different. The definitions of almost anything are different.
As for the bullshit that cultural affinity rather than its opposite,
partially or wholly, and also individual preferences of various kinds,
are traps.... Some say so. To them everything is a trap unless it is
exactly what they themselves believe and you must believe it along with
them, and practice it exactly as they do along with them, or you too
will be in traps forever.... It's the same bullshit, bullshit,
bullshit..... Can't you see through it yet ?
R.M.
Morpheal
> It's a fact that you have no clue what you are talking about. Muslims,
> for the most part, love poetry. Poetry is much more popular in most
> Muslim countries then it is in the West.
Yes, they do. The Koran was recorded by a poet who won the poetry
competition at the rock... I have heard that most moslems tend to regard
the Koran as being poetry. In fact they love that poetry so much they
claim they do not need any further poetry... of any kind. So you are
doing the typical soft shoe routine.... Yes, you are perfectly right,
but what you are saying sidesteps everything I was saying, so that it
looks like we are in disagreement, when in fact we agree perfectly on
that question.
> I doubt your ignorance would be taken as insanity.
Oh... I'm somewhat likenable to Klinger... I even wore a dress once.
Only once. Well, twice. I admit to twice. Once for a theatrical thing.
Now you must agree that that qualifies as insanity ?
How about this.... I actually find the idea of ending up, in some other
world, with a bar in front and a bar behind, rather appealing.... I
would not have this ache in my back... or maybe it's my tendency to like
some of the elements of bondage, in a kind of erotic way.... Now that
must be insane. I must qualify now, don't I ?
I also once accidentally erased a portion of a phrase from a recitation
of Koran.... Now that does it for sure doesn't it ?
Oh, and I have big ears. If nothing else does it then that does it. Here
come the demons. All the demons that get summoned, when one has big
ears. It's only sorcery, magick, and you're not superstitious are you ?
You don't believe in or fear such things do you ?
Well... I am insane. Believe me, I am very very insane.
I have even drunk alcohol, as a source of immunization against.... well
you know. It protects me.
> Did you ever see those Saturday Night Live skits about the "goth" kid
> in his basement... you remind me of that... pathetic.
She should come out of her basement, and she and I could have some
real fun.... Remember, she's insane too.
R.M.
Morpheal
> The only reason I ever bother to "debate" Mr. Ezergailis (aka Morpheal) is that I think there should be information made available to
counterbalance his disinformation... in case there might be someone who
accepts his "authority".
Yes, of course, and I am the pontiff of a new religion....
Our sacrament is jam on a bun, and our first saint is Looney.
To a Canuck that is even more meaningful.
R.M.