Surrealism: Desire Unbound
elag
Metropolitan Museum (NYC) until May 12.
http://www.metmuseum.org/special/se_event.asp?OccurrenceId={694886C2-280A-11D5-93F2-00902786BF44}
The best part about the show is that it does a fairly good job of
putting the art and literature of Surrealism into the context of
liberating desire.
Although most of the works were familiar to me there were some nice
surprises from private collections. Of special interest were some great
pieces by Masson and one by the Brazilian sculptor
Maria (Martins):
http://www.aestufa.com.br/canibalia/html/martins.html
The literature display cases were lined with white (fake) fur which I
thought was appropriate but for some reason Meret Oppenheim's "Object" (Fur
Covered Cup, Saucer and Spoon) was missing!!! A shame....
Here's a link to it anyway:
http://www.moma.org/exhibitions/objects/sections/seven/oppenheim.html
In a related thought... I really wanted to rub the fur trim on the
blouse of a woman standing next to me but all I kept thinking was "even
in 1924 that would get you a face full of fist"... ah, welllll...
The display of books and magazines was very generously peppered with
excerpts and translations and did in some small way evoke the flavor of
Surrealist writings and thoughts and feelings. I really enjoyed reading
a letter from Man Ray to Lee Miller (signed "Your Man"). It was
interesting to read how the freedom of their "open" relationship
tortured him though he remained adamant in his commitment not to demand commitment.
Another item of note was the manuscript of Breton's "Nadja" which was
thought to be lost... it was like torture... because I wanted very much
to thumb through it to look at the notes and drawings and letters and
other source material contained therein.
Another book which looked inviting was "When Noise Works" (Quand Le
Bruit Travaille) by Gisele Prassinos, but I can't find it in translation
and I'm not about to slog through it in French... I don't suppose that
anyone has read it?
Here's some info about her:
http://www.kalin.lm.com/prass.html
...
If I may ask a small favor of anyone who's managed to read this far...
please be so kind to share your interpretation of the Max Ernst painting
"Men Shall Know Nothing of This" (1923).
The Met was kind enough to post a copy (which can be enlarged):
http://metmuseum.org/special/surrealism_desire_unbound/2.r.htm
Thanks for your help.
NickTheLemming
>From: elag el...@cloud9.net
>Date: 2/26/2002 5:34 PM US Mountain Standard Time
>Message-id: <3C7C2988...@cloud9.net>
This was shown at the Tate Modern in London for quite a while, and I second the
opinion as to its worth. The Meret oppenheim teacup is still there, as far as I
know, by the way. Unfortunately I can't tell you if it is still there, as I've
now moved to Arizona...
Nick the Lemming
Another Happy VHEMT Volunteer!
In Your Face, Space Coyote!
john adams
around, for about a week and will probably attend the Unbound exhibit, too -
I hear they're selling pillows.
When I arrive Thursday, I plan to ride the train up to Tivoli and see Cat Power.
john
"elag" <el...@cloud9.net> wrote in message news:3C7C2988...@cloud9.net...
elag
>
> Hello, perhaps I'll see you there on the streets of NY. I'll be there, wandering
> around, for about a week and will probably attend the Unbound exhibit, too -
> I hear they're selling pillows.
They're $elling everything. They may even have a limited edition $ink
$igned by R. Mutt.
>
> When I arrive Thursday, I plan to ride the train up to Tivoli and see Cat Power.
What in tarnation is that?
elag
> This was shown at the Tate Modern in London for quite a while, and I second the
> opinion as to its worth. The Meret oppenheim teacup is still there, as far > as I know, by the way.
Well, I've seen it before... and I'll probably see it again! Anyway, I
have enough black fake fur in my apartment to keep me amused for years.
> Unfortunately I can't tell you if it is still there, as I've
> now moved to Arizona...
Now, why'd you go and do a thing like that?
NickTheLemming
>From: elag el...@cloud9.net
>Date: 2/27/2002 2:02 PM US Mountain Standard Time
>Message-id: <3C7D496B...@cloud9.net>
>
>> Unfortunately I can't tell you if it is still there, as I've
>> now moved to Arizona...
>
>
>Now, why'd you go and do a thing like that?
>
You mean you haven't?
Weird.
elag
>
> >Subject: Re: Surrealism: Desire Unbound
> >From: elag el...@cloud9.net
> >Date: 2/27/2002 2:02 PM US Mountain Standard Time
> >Message-id: <3C7D496B...@cloud9.net>
> >
> >> Unfortunately I can't tell you if it is still there, as I've
> >> now moved to Arizona...
> >
> >
> >Now, why'd you go and do a thing like that?
> >
>
> You mean you haven't?
>
> Weird.
well... I once visited the Phoenix Desert Botanical Garden. There I fell
in love with a golden barrel cactus and saw an Agave named after Parry:
NickTheLemming
>Message-id: <3C7EDE02...@cloud9.net>
And you think I need any further reason to have moved here?
elag
>
> >Subject: Re: Surrealism: Desire Unbound
> >From: elag el...@cloud9.net
> >Date: 2/28/2002 6:48 PM US Mountain Standard Time
> >Message-id: <3C7EDE02...@cloud9.net>
> >
> >NickTheLemming wrote:
> >>
> >> >Subject: Re: Surrealism: Desire Unbound
> >> >From: elag el...@cloud9.net
> >> >Date: 2/27/2002 2:02 PM US Mountain Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: <3C7D496B...@cloud9.net>
> >> >
> >> >> Unfortunately I can't tell you if it is still there, as I've
> >> >> now moved to Arizona...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Now, why'd you go and do a thing like that?
> >> >
> >>
> >> You mean you haven't?
> >>
> >> Weird.
> >
> >
> >well... I once visited the Phoenix Desert Botanical Garden. There I fell
> >in love with a golden barrel cactus and saw an Agave named after Parry:
> >
> >http://weather.nmsu.edu/AbqPlantList/eshrub/parryagave.htm
> >
> >
>
> And you think I need any further reason to have moved here?
It's pretty fine in February/March, but in mid-summer I would melt. I'm
more of an arctic personality. I plan on moving 300 - 400 miles north
(of NYC) when I get the chance... to a place where I can thumb my nose
at Global Warning (for a few years at least) and enjoy being snowbound
in winter.
So...
have you seen the desert flowers blooming in the blue hot night?
I wrote this at the Desert Botanical Garden:
Phoenix Takes Flight
--------------------
I long to kiss
a Golden Barrel Cactus
Feel the green spiny heart
beating in my chest
As I breathe in
the dust of a billion years
of solitude
I count out the litany
of an ocean of dried tears
sinking into the Winter desert
A river of spilled blood
tinting my Green Mesa
I've forgotten my birth
I don't believe in death
If I taste cold dry ashes
I may also taste
the sweet orange sunshine
I need not always crouch in the shade.
Parry
> If I may ask a small favor of anyone who's managed to read this far...
> please be so kind to share your interpretation of the Max Ernst painting
> "Men Shall Know Nothing of This" (1923).
>
> The Met was kind enough to post a copy (which can be enlarged):
>
> http://metmuseum.org/special/surrealism_desire_unbound/2.r.htm
As a rule, I don’t verbally interpret paintings, because I’m bad at it.
The description runs on and the point gets lost in convolution. But as
I’ve just killed a few hours filling out tax returns I’m in the mood for
breaking this rule.
First, though, I understand Ernst inscribed an explanatory poem on the
back of the painting. I’ve only the end part: “The moon runs quickly
through its phases and eclipses. This picture is curious in its
symmetry. The two sexes are in equilibrium.”
My initial impression is that the painting depicts the hermeticism and
fragility of a system of meaning. The sex act and precisely mapped
orbits of celestial bodies are fundamental-ancient components
incorporated into an elaborate and delicately balanced system that hangs
unnaturally suspended over a petrifying natural world. The circles evoke
the closed-nature of the system and the illusion of perfection that
opens the door to mysticism. The curious hand is enclosed in this system
and even given a central place. Just above the hand is a black dot which
is not visible in all book plates of this painting, but once found it
becomes the focal point of the work. To me the dot exists as the black
hole in the center of any system of meaning.
By this interpretation, the title “Men Shall Know Nothing of This” may
be taken a couple of ways, either referring to the hidden nature of the
system or to the irreducible kernel of mystery around which the system
spins. The knowledge is either elusive or prohibited.
If the preceding is incomprehensible, well the reader was forewarned.
-- Parry
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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NickTheLemming
>Message-id: <3C803C01...@cloud9.net>
>
>
>
>It's pretty fine in February/March, but in mid-summer I would melt. I'm
>more of an arctic personality. I plan on moving 300 - 400 miles north
>(of NYC) when I get the chance... to a place where I can thumb my nose
>at Global Warning (for a few years at least) and enjoy being snowbound
>in winter.
>
I was pretty much that way, and I was over here in July / August so I know what
to expect...
>So...
>have you seen the desert flowers blooming in the blue hot night?
>
Not yet. Have been staying almost solely in Tempe so far, as I get myself
settled etc.
>I wrote this at the Desert Botanical Garden:
>
>
:-)
>Phoenix Takes Flight
>--------------------
>
>I long to kiss
>a Golden Barrel Cactus
>Feel the green spiny heart
>beating in my chest
>
She kisses back, tentatively
Hard spines reluctant, willing to bend
but afraid and unsure.
>As I breathe in
>the dust of a billion years
>of solitude
>I count out the litany
>of an ocean of dried tears
>sinking into the Winter desert
>A river of spilled blood
>tinting my Green Mesa
>
Her heat swells with the desert wind
and blows hot over me
Lost to the sun
>I've forgotten my birth
>I don't believe in death
>If I taste cold dry ashes
>I may also taste
>the sweet orange sunshine
>
She laughs at California
I pout and protest
She looks upon me fondly
>I need not always crouch in the shade.
>
The sun shines bright
and my fears, rescinded,
shrivel and die.
elag
>
> >Subject: Re: Surrealism: Desire Unbound
> >From: elag el...@cloud9.net
> >Date: 3/1/2002 7:42 PM US Mountain Standard Time
> >Message-id: <3C803C01...@cloud9.net>
> >have you seen the desert flowers blooming in the blue hot night?
> >
>
> Not yet. Have been staying almost solely in Tempe so far, as I get myself
> settled etc.
I hope that you one day have the chance to see the night blooming
cereus. I really love the idea of a flower which gazes at the Moon and
shies away from the Sun.
http://www.desertusa.com/mag99/july/papr/nbcereus.html
After looking at a map of your general area I felt compelled to form a
structure comprised of southern Arizona place names:
Arizona Arranged
----------------
A Silver Bell rang
under the Iron Mountain
bringing Inspiration
to the People's Valley...
A Superior Cactus Sentinel thought:
"it's been a Good Year
for the Constellation Congress"
The Crown King of Pleasant Lake
asked the Red Rock Oracle
for a Mammoth Sombrero
And the Sonoran Desert Snowflake
took a ride down the Salt River
to buy a Table Top Tombstone
elag
>
> elag wrote:
> > If I may ask a small favor of anyone who's managed to read this far...
> > please be so kind to share your interpretation of the Max Ernst painting
> > "Men Shall Know Nothing of This" (1923).
> >
> > The Met was kind enough to post a copy (which can be enlarged):
> >
> > http://metmuseum.org/special/surrealism_desire_unbound/2.r.htm
>
> As a rule, I don’t verbally interpret paintings, because I’m bad at it.
> The description runs on and the point gets lost in convolution. But as
> I’ve just killed a few hours filling out tax returns
... and we all know just how painful that can be...
Thanks for chanceing it.
> First, though, I understand Ernst inscribed an explanatory poem on the
> back of the painting. I’ve only the end part: “The moon runs quickly
> through its phases and eclipses. This picture is curious in its
> symmetry. The two sexes are in equilibrium.”
I'll have to look up the complete poem. My slim mouldy volume of Ernst
lacks the inscription.
>
> My initial impression is that the painting depicts the hermeticism and
> fragility of a system of meaning. The sex act and precisely mapped
> orbits of celestial bodies are fundamental-ancient components
> incorporated into an elaborate and delicately balanced system that hangs
> unnaturally suspended over a petrifying natural world. The circles evoke
> the closed-nature of the system and the illusion of perfection that
> opens the door to mysticism. The curious hand is enclosed in this system
> and even given a central place. Just above the hand is a black dot which
> is not visible in all book plates of this painting, but once found it
> becomes the focal point of the work. To me the dot exists as the black
> hole in the center of any system of meaning.
>
> By this interpretation, the title “Men Shall Know Nothing of This” may
> be taken a couple of ways, either referring to the hidden nature of the
> system or to the irreducible kernel of mystery around which the system
> spins. The knowledge is either elusive or prohibited.
>
> If the preceding is incomprehensible, well the reader was forewarned.
Actually, your interpretation is closely related to ones which I have
read before. Have you read any interpretations of it?
I know that this piece is in part based on the memoirs of Daniel
Schreber, whose fantasies about becoming a woman were analysed by Freud.
It has been a favorite of mine since I was a freshman in college. I
always had a shorthand interpretation of it as posing the question: "Why
is sodomy forbidden?". In other words, I see it as exposing the
dissonance between the (forbidden) sex act as experienced internally and
as considered externally.
The hand can be seen as guarding or blocking entry.
I realize, of course, that the imagery is so cryptically dense that many
interpretations are possible.
Considering the Anal fascinations (mainly heterosexual) of many of the
old-time Surrealists it's no wonder that such imagery crops up here and
there in their writing and paintings.
Parry
No, just one short description: it “contains a significant illustrative
aspect which makes reference to many sources: scientific,
psychoanalytical, astrological, and occult.” That’s all self-evident, I
would think. My other Ernst book doesn’t even include the painting. It’s
a bit sad that my reading is so un-novel, but at least you didn’t think
it was totally whacked, as if I had written “Ernst is depicting the
inner circles of the Nazi Party and beckoning everyone to join with a
Sieg Heil hand.”
> I know that this piece is in part based on the memoirs of Daniel
> Schreber, whose fantasies about becoming a woman were analysed by Freud.
>
> It has been a favorite of mine since I was a freshman in college. I
> always had a shorthand interpretation of it as posing the question: "Why
> is sodomy forbidden?". In other words, I see it as exposing the
> dissonance between the (forbidden) sex act as experienced internally and
> as considered externally.
>
> The hand can be seen as guarding or blocking entry.
That’s a credible interpretation. It occurred to me too that anal sex
was represented, but the more I looked at the picture, turning it upside
down and such, the more ambiguous the copulating figures seemed. I
thought it could pass as hetero or homo, anal or vaginal.
> I realize, of course, that the imagery is so cryptically dense that many
> interpretations are possible.
Right. I don’t see how any painting or other work that has only one
correct interpretation could be of interest to anyone.
> Considering the Anal fascinations (mainly heterosexual) of many of the
> old-time Surrealists it's no wonder that such imagery crops up here and
> there in their writing and paintings.
Maybe it’s the influence of Sade, whose writings are graphic with the
stuff.
Parry
> This was shown at the Tate Modern in London for quite a while, and I second the
> opinion as to its worth. The Meret oppenheim teacup is still there, as far as I
> know, by the way. Unfortunately I can't tell you if it is still there, as I've
> now moved to Arizona...
The thought of Arizona is scary to me. Of course, my impressions of it
are formed from old Fred Woodworth editorials in The Match. An example
is reprinted below. Anyone know if Woodworth still has The Match going?
-- Parry
--------------
Excerpt from Fred Woodworth’s “What Would You Do?”, The Match! #89,
Summer 1994
[Begins with describing rightist nuttiness of local paper, The Tuscon
Citizen. Then...]
It goes on and on, and I mention it at such length because Tucsonans
gobble it up. They think this way themselves. They LOVE any and all
accessions to authority. Even Singapore’s model wouldn’t be enough for
them. Their elected officials are the nastiest anywhere; their ignorance
and lack of imagination are the worst of any good-sized city. Their
justice system is corrupt in some ways that unfortunately even I am not
at liberty to report (yet); their police routinely form a testing lab
for high-tech apparatus of control and outright torture for other cop
departments around the country. Their very drivers’ licenses are now
made up with digitally scanned photographs at present being entered into
computers so that every person who drives a car, legally, is in essence
on display in a permanent, round-the-clock police lineup. If the
computer says you match, along with a thousand others, the profile of
some “suspect”, you can expect the Knock On The Door In The Middle Of
The Night. That’s if you’re luck; most of the time they don’t bother to
knock. In fact, Tucson police have recently been using concussion
grenades to BLOW OPEN doors so that these gestapo won’t even have to
expend their own energy breaking them down. A little girl, in a case
quickly hushed up by the obedient newspapers, was badly wounded when her
front door blew up as she was right next to it. The cops were not
apologetic. They don’t have to be, here in the Fatherland.
And aside from being under the thumb of the police and the lying and
manipulative “Citizen”, Tucson’s morally degenerating residents are
further ruled by the millionaire land-developers, who control zoning and
create fantastic sprawling wastelands of beehive housing for the human
insects; the powerful and rigidly authoritarian bureaucracy of the
University of Arizona, which, with police powers of its own and ability
to exercise “Eminent Domain”, can arrest you anyplace in southern
Arizona, or decide to force you to sell your property at a price
determined by it.
Finally, you have the military agencies: the Davis-Monthan Air Force
Base; the Border Patrol and Immigration and Naturalization Service, and
several others.
In truth, this political situation, combined with the monstrous climate
which is rapidly growing far, far worse due to the thousands of square
miles of asphalt all soaking up heat from the sun (average temperature
has risen about 7 or 8 degrees in the last 20 years)... all of these
things, and many more, make this one of the most unpleasant,
demoralizing and terrible places to live in, that I can imagine.
Which is precisely why I’m currently in the process of getting out.
WITH THAT IN MIND...
My personal situation in this city has been every bit as frustrating and
hellish as one might expect from the above extremely sketchy and
abridged report. Unanimous censorship by commercial printers forced me
to become a printer; suppression of distribution forced me to depend
solely on outside subscriptions (not one single copy of The Match is
sold in any bookstore or newsstand in Tucson). No local library will
carry this publication in a manner that makes it publicly available to
readers (the University of Arizona keeps The Match on file in Special
Collections where, about once per decade, someone brave enough to
produce identification and sign forms which go on record to state
agencies and the police, can get a look at it). My former occupation
teaching languages was ripped out from under me 23 years ago following a
police beating which I did NOT receive a Rodney King-like compensation
for (but, more power to Rodney King! May he benefit where others of us,
less ultimately fortunate, did not). When I maintained the office of The
Match in Tuscon, I had to move a dozen times over the years as
authoritarians from this milieu sought to quell this disapproved
expression.
And more -- much more. Incredible amounts more.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
elag
> The thought of Arizona is scary to me. Of course, my > impressions of it
> are formed from old Fred Woodworth editorials in The Match.
> An example is reprinted below......
Yipes! This description does raise one's hackles!
It's probably very nice if you live way out in the desert with only the
Space Coyotes as neighbors.
> Anyone know if Woodworth still has The Match going?
Apparently so (he never did escape):
elag
>
> elag wrote:
...
> > It has been a favorite of mine since I was a freshman in college. I
> > always had a shorthand interpretation of it as posing the question: "Why
> > is sodomy forbidden?". In other words, I see it as exposing the
> > dissonance between the (forbidden) sex act as experienced internally and
> > as considered externally.
> >
> > The hand can be seen as guarding or blocking entry.
>
> That’s a credible interpretation. It occurred to me too that anal sex
> was represented, but the more I looked at the picture, turning it upside
> down and such, the more ambiguous the copulating figures seemed. I
> thought it could pass as hetero or homo, anal or vaginal.
Yes, it seems to convey a sense of sexual ambiguity, which makes sense
in view of Daniel Schreber's fantasies involving the boundaries between
male/female sexuality. It probably can also be related back to Freud's
concept of "Polymorphous Perversity".
>
> > I realize, of course, that the imagery is so cryptically dense that many
> > interpretations are possible.
>
> Right. I don’t see how any painting or other work that has only one
> correct interpretation could be of interest to anyone.
>
> > Considering the Anal fascinations (mainly heterosexual) of many of the
> > old-time Surrealists it's no wonder that such imagery crops up here and
> > there in their writing and paintings.
>
> Maybe it’s the influence of Sade, whose writings are graphic with the
> stuff.
Certainly, Sade and Freud opened the minds of many people in those days
to unconventional stances on sexuality. The Surrealists were in the
forefront of the "Sexual Revolution" even though 19th century
conventions still reared their ugly heads (the hundred headless woman
comes to mind).
Have you ever read The 100 Days of Sodom? It is interesting, even
though it reads like a catalog for the most part. In the days when it
was banned it must have been very liberating.
NickTheLemming
>Message-id: <3C86C10A...@cloud9.net>
>
>Parry wrote:
>
>> The thought of Arizona is scary to me. Of course, my > impressions of it
>> are formed from old Fred Woodworth editorials in The Match.
>> An example is reprinted below......
>
>
>Yipes! This description does raise one's hackles!
>It's probably very nice if you live way out in the desert with only the
>Space Coyotes as neighbors.
>
>
Tempe isn't that much of a desert, unless you're talking culturally.
No sign of Space Coyotes yet either.
NickTheLemming
>Date: 3/7/2002 2:24 PM US Mountain Standard Time
>Message-id: <fadef76.02030...@posting.google.com>
>
>nickthe...@aol.com (NickTheLemming) wrote in message
>news:<20020306234208...@mb-cs.aol.com>...
>> >Subject: Re: Surrealism: Desire Unbound
>> >From: elag el...@cloud9.net
>> >Date: 3/6/2002 6:23 PM US Mountain Standard Time
>> >Message-id: <3C86C10A...@cloud9.net>
>> >
>> >Parry wrote:
>> >
>> >> The thought of Arizona is scary to me. Of course, my impressions of it
>> >> are formed from old Fred Woodworth editorials in The Match.
>> >> An example is reprinted below......
>> >
>> >
>> >Yipes! This description does raise one's hackles!
>> >It's probably very nice if you live way out in the desert with only the
>> >Space Coyotes as neighbors.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Tempe isn't that much of a desert, unless you're talking culturally.
>
>I don't recall its name -- would you happen to know what it is? I think
>it's off Route 66. Lots of trees there, fairly low elevation for that
>area.
>
Not sure...Sedona?
I still don't know the area that well yet; haven't left the greater Phoenix
area so far...
Parry
> > > Considering the Anal fascinations (mainly heterosexual) of many of the
> > > old-time Surrealists it's no wonder that such imagery crops up here and
> > > there in their writing and paintings.
> >
> > Maybe it’s the influence of Sade, whose writings are graphic with the
> > stuff.
>
> Certainly, Sade and Freud opened the minds of many people in those days
> to unconventional stances on sexuality. The Surrealists were in the
> forefront of the "Sexual Revolution" even though 19th century
> conventions still reared their ugly heads (the hundred headless woman
> comes to mind).
>
> Have you ever read The 100 Days of Sodom?
Yes. In some ways it’s probably his strongest writing, though my
favourite remains “Juliette” (I’m anxious to read “La Nouvelle Justine,”
which I don’t believe has been translated).
> It is interesting, even
> though it reads like a catalog for the most part.
The book’s unfinished, of course. The catalogue bit (most of the book)
is an outline for the remaining action, around which presumably
philosophical explorations and horrific details would accumulate. It’s
possible Sade even proceeded from the outline to a book which is lost.
As impressive as “Sodom” now stands, it’s unimaginable what the final
work might have been like.
The history of the book is an interesting story itself. This description
from Geoffrey Gorer’s “The Life and Ideas of the Marquis de Sade” whets
the imagination:
“From every point of view ‘Les 120 Journées de Sodome’ is one of the
most extraordinary books in the world. Even its history is peculiar. The
manuscript we posses is a single roll of paper about thirteen yards long
and not quite five inches wide, covered on both sides by an almost
microscopical writing (in print the work covers nearly 500 pages of
royal quarto); this was written by de Sade in thirty-seven evenings,
writing from seven to ten every night, starting August 20th, 1785, in
the Bastille. On his removal from there the manuscript was lost, or
stolen, and came into the possession of a French family where it
remained for over a century. Then a hundred and twenty years after its
composition it was published by Dr. Ivan Bloch (‘Eugene Dühren’) in a
very limited edition; a second and corrected edition was started in
Paris in 1931, and completed in 1937.
“And yet this monstrous work -- perhaps 250,000 words -- is the merest
skeleton of what was originally intended. It was to be in four parts,
preceded by an introduction and followed by an epilogue; but except for
the introduction and the first part, which have been fairly fully
developed, it is only in the form of detailed notes. We shall probably
never know whether de Sade used this canvas to write the complete book.
As with ‘The Castle’ we have only the fragment of the intended whole;
and these two fragments, utterly opposed as they are in every way, can
both be qualified as masterpieces.’
[...]
“As Maurice Heine has pointed out with considerable perspicacity, when
de Sade lost the manuscript (? manuscripts) of this work he lost his
masterpiece, and knew it; and it is probably due to the vain effort to
repair this loss, from the scientific point of view, that we get the
numerous obscenities in the final edition of ‘Justine’ and
‘Juliette.’...”
> In the days when it
> was banned it must have been very liberating.
Still is!
Parry
>
> Parry wrote:
> > Anyone know if Woodworth still has The Match going?
>
> Apparently so (he never did escape):
>
> http://ri.xu.org/arbalest/matchindex.html
Thanks for the link. Perhaps Woodworth’s feelings towards the internet
have thawed. His antipathy for computers was such that in the mid-90s he
was still typesetting The Match by hand.
-- Parry
elag
>
> elag wrote:
> > > > Considering the Anal fascinations (mainly heterosexual) of many of the
> > > > old-time Surrealists it's no wonder that such imagery crops up here and
> > > > there in their writing and paintings.
> > >
> > > Maybe it’s the influence of Sade, whose writings are graphic with the
> > > stuff.
> >
> > Certainly, Sade and Freud opened the minds of many people in those days
> > to unconventional stances on sexuality. The Surrealists were in the
> > forefront of the "Sexual Revolution" even though 19th century
> > conventions still reared their ugly heads (the hundred headless woman
> > comes to mind).
> >
> > Have you ever read The 100 Days of Sodom?
>
> Yes. In some ways it’s probably his strongest writing, though my
> favourite remains “Juliette” (I’m anxious to read “La Nouvelle Justine,”
> which I don’t believe has been translated).
Heh... there's a "fetish" restaurant in my neigborhood called "La
Nouvelle Justine", but I've never darkened their door.
>
> > It is interesting, even
> > though it reads like a catalog for the most part.
>
> The book’s unfinished, of course. The catalogue bit (most of the book)
> is an outline for the remaining action, around which presumably
> philosophical explorations and horrific details would accumulate. It’s
> possible Sade even proceeded from the outline to a book which is lost.
> As impressive as “Sodom” now stands, it’s unimaginable what the final
> work might have been like.
No wonder that my impression was of a very interesting list.
You know, I didn't even remember that it was unfinished, as I read it
long ago. I surreptitiously scoped the unexpurgated version in one of
the private study rooms at Sarah Lawrence College. I was supposed to be
doing homework while my sister studied for her Medical Boards.
>
> The history of the book is an interesting story itself. This description
> from Geoffrey Gorer’s “The Life and Ideas of the Marquis de Sade” whets
> the imagination:
>
> “From every point of view ‘Les 120 Journées de Sodome’ is one of the
> most extraordinary books in the world. Even its history is peculiar. ...”
I must say that It's quite amazing that it survived all those years.
Perhaps banning a book is the best way to save it.
>
> > In the days when it
> > was banned it must have been very liberating.
>
> Still is!
"I am about to put foward some major ideas; they will be heard and
pondered. If not all of them please, surely a few will; in some sort,
then, I shall have contributed to the progress of our age, and shall be content."
from - Philosophy in the Bedroom
elag
>
> elag wrote:
> >
> > Parry wrote:
> > > Anyone know if Woodworth still has The Match going?
> >
> > Apparently so (he never did escape):
> >
> > http://ri.xu.org/arbalest/matchindex.html
>
> Thanks for the link. Perhaps Woodworth’s feelings towards the internet
> have thawed. His antipathy for computers was such that in the mid-90s he
> was still typesetting The Match by hand.
One of the greatest effects of the proliferation of personal computers
was that they put an end to (traditional) typesetting.... maybe he found
a computer in a dumpster... less time spent typesetting left him more
time to reconsider technology... then he realized how efficient the Inet
can be as a tool for "hammering away at the State's lies, false
assurances mistakes, stupid errors and injustices"...
of course that's only a theory...
elag
>
> >Subject: Re: Surrealism: Desire Unbound
> >From: elag el...@cloud9.net
> >Date: 3/6/2002 6:23 PM US Mountain Standard Time
> >Message-id: <3C86C10A...@cloud9.net>
> >
> >Parry wrote:
> >
> >> The thought of Arizona is scary to me. Of course, my > impressions of it
> >> are formed from old Fred Woodworth editorials in The Match.
> >> An example is reprinted below......
> >
> >
> >Yipes! This description does raise one's hackles!
> >It's probably very nice if you live way out in the desert with only the
> >Space Coyotes as neighbors.
> >
> >
>
> Tempe isn't that much of a desert, unless you're talking culturally.
So why was it that you moved out there? Was it because of the weather
or a job or health reasons or is that just the best place to get a good
deal on Kachina Dolls?
If you don't mind my asking...
(I am curious, blue)
> No sign of Space Coyotes yet either.
Where do them critters hang out?
NickTheLemming
>Message-id: <3C897B59...@cloud9.net>
>
>> Tempe isn't that much of a desert, unless you're talking culturally.
>
>
>So why was it that you moved out there? Was it because of the weather
>or a job or health reasons or is that just the best place to get a good
>deal on Kachina Dolls?
>
My girlfriend lives here. She's studying at ASU, so I decided that I'd jettison
my job and return to university too as a mature student, to study history.
>If you don't mind my asking...
>
>(I am curious, blue)
>
Of course I don't.
>
>
>> No sign of Space Coyotes yet either.
>
>
>
>Where do them critters hang out?
They crawl and utter vague directions while I sleep. They remain invisible to
the naked eye though.
elag
>
> My girlfriend lives here. She's studying at ASU, so I decided that I'd jettison
> my job and return to university too as a mature student, to study history.
In what area do you concentrate... or what is your favorite period?
> >> No sign of Space Coyotes yet either.
> >
> >
> >
> >Where do them critters hang out?
>
> They crawl and utter vague directions while I sleep. They
> remain invisible to the naked eye though.
During the day they drink cafe con leche in Coyoacan, just because they
can. There they dine on chayote because they can't find dessert in the desert.
NickTheLemming
>Message-id: <3C8AC3CF...@cloud9.net>
>
>NickTheLemming wrote:
>>
>> My girlfriend lives here. She's studying at ASU, so I decided that I'd
>jettison
>> my job and return to university too as a mature student, to study history.
>
>
>In what area do you concentrate... or what is your favorite period?
>
>
European history, with minors in war and revolution, and mediaeval heresy.
>
>
>
>> They crawl and utter vague directions while I sleep. They
>> remain invisible to the naked eye though.
>
>
>During the day they drink cafe con leche in Coyoacan, just because they
>can. There they dine on chayote because they can't find dessert in the
>desert.
>
The the dessert of my mind, they eat my random thoughts with a vigorous
ecstatic longing often neglected by those whose socks are now threadbare.
elag
>
> >Subject: Re: Surrealism: Desire Unbound
> >From: elag el...@cloud9.net
> >Date: 3/9/2002 7:24 PM US Mountain Standard Time
> >Message-id: <3C8AC3CF...@cloud9.net>
> >
> >NickTheLemming wrote:
> >>
> >> My girlfriend lives here. She's studying at ASU, so I decided that I'd
> >jettison
> >> my job and return to university too as a mature student, to study history.
> >
> >
> >In what area do you concentrate... or what is your favorite period?
> >
> >
>
The various European Revolutions do make interesting reading. I find
the story of The Revolution of Cola di Rienzo and the establishment of
the Roman Republic to be especially interesting. Have you read much
about him yet?
Will your studies also cover war and revolution in the 20th century?
NickTheLemming
>Message-id: <3C8D6435...@cloud9.net>
Can't say I have. To be honest, most of my revolution stuff is based upon
religious heresy and revolution, though later on I'll have to take some courses
on more modern versions.
>Will your studies also cover war and revolution in the 20th century?
>
I'm purposefully ignoring WW2, but I may study something like the Cuban
revolution, Chinese, Russian revolution, or possibly the Spanish Civil War.
Nick the Lemming
elag
>
> >Subject: Re: Surrealism: Desire Unbound
> >From: elag el...@cloud9.net
> >Date: 3/11/2002 7:13 PM US Mountain Standard Time
> >Message-id: <3C8D6435...@cloud9.net>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> European history, with minors in war and revolution and mediaeval heresy.
> >
> >
> >The various European Revolutions do make interesting reading. I find
> >the story of The Revolution of Cola di Rienzo and the establishment of
> >the Roman Republic to be especially interesting. Have you read much
> >about him yet?
> >
>
> Can't say I have. To be honest, most of my revolution stuff is based upon
> religious heresy and revolution,
Oh... I generally avoid religious history, except for scientific
"heresies" such as Copernicus, Galileo and Giordano Bruno.
though later on I'll have to take some courses
> on more modern versions.
>
> >Will your studies also cover war and revolution in the 20th century?
> >
>
> I'm purposefully ignoring WW2, but I may study something like the Cuban
> revolution, Chinese, Russian revolution, or possibly the Spanish Civil War.
The Czech "Velvet Revolution" of 1968 and the Hungarian Revolt of 1956
were rather amazing, if short. They can also be tied in historically to
the Revolutions of 1848 &tc....
Just a thought.
NickTheLemming
>Message-id: <3C8E616C...@cloud9.net>
>
>> Can't say I have. To be honest, most of my revolution stuff is based upon
>> religious heresy and revolution,
>
>
>
>Oh... I generally avoid religious history, except for scientific
>"heresies" such as Copernicus, Galileo and Giordano Bruno.
>
I like them for the hypcrisy they show shining like a beacon from the vatican
:-)
>> I'm purposefully ignoring WW2, but I may study something like the Cuban
>> revolution, Chinese, Russian revolution, or possibly the Spanish Civil War.
>
>
>The Czech "Velvet Revolution" of 1968 and the Hungarian Revolt of 1956
>were rather amazing, if short. They can also be tied in historically to
>the Revolutions of 1848 &tc....
>
>Just a thought.
>
And would be very interesting to study, but infortunately aren't on the
syllabus for me to study...
elag
>
> >Subject: Re: Surrealism: Desire Unbound
> >From: elag el...@cloud9.net
> >Date: 3/12/2002 1:13 PM US Mountain Standard Time
> >Message-id: <3C8E616C...@cloud9.net>
> >
> >> Can't say I have. To be honest, most of my revolution stuff is based upon
> >> religious heresy and revolution,
> >
> >
> >
> >Oh... I generally avoid religious history, except for scientific
> >"heresies" such as Copernicus, Galileo and Giordano Bruno.
> >
>
> I like them for the hypcrisy they show shining like a beacon from the vatican
> :-)
Then you must love reading about Pope Alexander VI (Borgia)
[1430-1503]... Pope Poisoner.
> >> I'm purposefully ignoring WW2, but I may study something like the Cuban
> >> revolution, Chinese, Russian revolution, or possibly the Spanish Civil War.
> >
> >
> >The Czech "Velvet Revolution" of 1968 and the Hungarian Revolt of 1956
> >were rather amazing, if short. They can also be tied in historically to
> >the Revolutions of 1848 &tc....
> >
> >Just a thought.
> >
>
> And would be very interesting to study, but infortunately aren't on the
> syllabus for me to study...
Guess that leaves out the Surrealist Revolution as well.
Parry
>
> >Subject: Re: Surrealism: Desire Unbound
> >From: elag el...@cloud9.net
> >Date: 3/9/2002 7:24 PM US Mountain Standard Time
> >Message-id: <3C8AC3CF...@cloud9.net>
> >
> >NickTheLemming wrote:
> >>
> >> My girlfriend lives here. She's studying at ASU, so I decided that I'd
> >jettison
> >> my job and return to university too as a mature student, to study history.
> >
> >In what area do you concentrate... or what is your favorite period?
>
> European history, with minors in war and revolution, and mediaeval heresy.
Have you seen Buñuel’s “The Milky Way”? It may be the best time-travel
comic-drama based on religious heterodoxies I’ve ever seen.
NickTheLemming
>Message-id: <3C8EB7AE...@cloud9.net>
>
>> I like them for the hypcrisy they show shining like a beacon from the
>vatican
>> :-)
>
>
>
>Then you must love reading about Pope Alexander VI (Borgia)
>[1430-1503]... Pope Poisoner.
>
My speciality in the Renaissance are the Italian city states, so yes, Borgia et
al are rather wonderful. Gregory VII in the 12th century was pretty good too -
known as the Holy Satan...
>> And would be very interesting to study, but infortunately aren't on the
>> syllabus for me to study...
>
>
>
>Guess that leaves out the Surrealist Revolution as well.
>
That's something I've already studied, but unfortunately it just comes under
the heading of art history. My arguments that the surrealists are not just
confined to art, and the plastic arts at that, tended to go on deaf ears.
NickTheLemming
>Date: 3/13/2002 2:01 AM US Mountain Standard Time
>Message-id: <3C8F15...@perfectOMITmail.com>
>
>NickTheLemming wrote:
>>
>> >Subject: Re: Surrealism: Desire Unbound
>> >From: elag el...@cloud9.net
>> >Date: 3/9/2002 7:24 PM US Mountain Standard Time
>> >Message-id: <3C8AC3CF...@cloud9.net>
>> >
>> >NickTheLemming wrote:
>> >>
>> >> My girlfriend lives here. She's studying at ASU, so I decided that I'd
>> >jettison
>> >> my job and return to university too as a mature student, to study
>history.
>> >
>> >In what area do you concentrate... or what is your favorite period?
>>
>> European history, with minors in war and revolution, and mediaeval heresy.
>
>Have you seen Buñuel’s “The Milky Way”? It may be the best time-travel
>comic-drama based on religious heterodoxies I’ve ever seen.
>
>-- Parry
>
I have. :-)
Unfortunately my copy is back in the UK, and wouldn't work in the video
recorders here anyway, but yes, I have seen it. It's one of my favourite Bunuel
films, since it's one of the more overtly surrealist, as opposed to his
sometimes less stated surrealist films.
elag
NickTheLemming wrote:
>
> >Subject: Re: Surrealism: Desire Unbound
> >From: elag el...@cloud9.net
> >Date: 3/12/2002 7:21 PM US Mountain Standard Time
> >Message-id: <3C8EB7AE...@cloud9.net>
> >
> >> I like them for the hypcrisy they show shining like a beacon from the
> >vatican
> >> :-)
> >
> >
> >
> >Then you must love reading about Pope Alexander VI (Borgia)
> >[1430-1503]... Pope Poisoner.
> >
>
> My speciality in the Renaissance are the Italian city states, so yes, Borgia et
> al are rather wonderful. Gregory VII in the 12th century was pretty good too -
> known as the Holy Satan...
Hmmm... he sounds interesting... imagonna look him up.
>
> >> And would be very interesting to study, but infortunately aren't on the
> >> syllabus for me to study...
> >
> >
> >
> >Guess that leaves out the Surrealist Revolution as well.
> >
>
> That's something I've already studied, but unfortunately it just comes under
> the heading of art history. My arguments that the surrealists are not just
> confined to art, and the plastic arts at that, tended to go on deaf ears.
>snif< the bastids... when will they ever learn?...
NickTheLemming
>Message-id: <3C8FADE2...@cloud9.net>
>
>
>
>NickTheLemming wrote:
>>
>> >Subject: Re: Surrealism: Desire Unbound
>> >From: elag el...@cloud9.net
>> >Date: 3/12/2002 7:21 PM US Mountain Standard Time
>> >Message-id: <3C8EB7AE...@cloud9.net>
>> >
>> >> I like them for the hypcrisy they show shining like a beacon from the
>> >vatican
>> >> :-)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Then you must love reading about Pope Alexander VI (Borgia)
>> >[1430-1503]... Pope Poisoner.
>> >
>>
>> My speciality in the Renaissance are the Italian city states, so yes,
>Borgia et
>> al are rather wonderful. Gregory VII in the 12th century was pretty good
>too -
>> known as the Holy Satan...
>
>
>
>Hmmm... he sounds interesting... imagonna look him up.
>
He was actually quite orthodox by today's standards, but not by the standards
of the day...
>
>> >Guess that leaves out the Surrealist Revolution as well.
>> >
>>
>> That's something I've already studied, but unfortunately it just comes
>under
>> the heading of art history. My arguments that the surrealists are not just
>> confined to art, and the plastic arts at that, tended to go on deaf ears.
>
>
>
>>snif< the bastids... when will they ever learn?...
Oh, they won't. It's good to keep them on their toes though and make them think
about what they're trying to teach from time to time. :-)
elag
>
> >Subject: Re: Surrealism: Desire Unbound
> >From: elag el...@cloud9.net
> >Date: 3/13/2002 12:52 PM US Mountain Standard Time
> >Message-id: <3C8FADE2...@cloud9.net>
> >
> >
> >
> >NickTheLemming wrote:
> >>
> >> >Subject: Re: Surrealism: Desire Unbound
> >> >From: elag el...@cloud9.net
> >> >Date: 3/12/2002 7:21 PM US Mountain Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: <3C8EB7AE...@cloud9.net>
> >> >
> >> >> I like them for the hypcrisy they show shining like a beacon from the
> >> >vatican
> >> >> :-)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Then you must love reading about Pope Alexander VI (Borgia)
> >> >[1430-1503]... Pope Poisoner.
> >> >
> >>
> >> My speciality in the Renaissance are the Italian city states, so yes,
> >Borgia et
> >> al are rather wonderful. Gregory VII in the 12th century was pretty good
> >too -
> >> known as the Holy Satan...
> >
> >
> >
> >Hmmm... he sounds interesting... imagonna look him up.
> >
>
> He was actually quite orthodox by today's standards, but not by the standards
> of the day...
Yes, he turned out to be far less interesting than I expected... well, I
can always go back to reading about Pope "Joan"...
Parry
An enjoyable book on these great criminals is E.R. Chamberlin’s “The Bad
Popes.” I can’t say whether or not the author repeats some anti-papist
propaganda, but it’s fascinating stuff nevertheless.
elag
I don't know if I want to invest that much time reading about those
gilded shepherds, but I always appreciate having the ammunition to use
against my cat-lick ancestors.
If it is anti-papist propaganda it pales in comparison to the piles of
holey hagiographies & anemic apologies hatched by the "holy" hierarchy.
Parry
> Parry wrote:
[snip]
> > An enjoyable book on these great criminals is E.R. Chamberlin’s “The Bad
> > Popes.” I can’t say whether or not the author repeats some anti-papist
> > propaganda, but it’s fascinating stuff nevertheless.
>
> I don't know if I want to invest that much time reading about those
> gilded shepherds,
Well it’s a quick read, as I recall.
> but I always appreciate having the ammunition to use
> against my cat-lick ancestors.
Even ignoring the utter ridiculousness of Catholicism as it now stands
(not to imply I have any relative respect for other sects of this
blithering religion), one doesn’t have to reach far back for shameful
episodes to recount. The Vatican’s collaboration with the Nazis and
fascists (along with Croatia’s Nazi Catholic state), for instance. But
“The Bad Popes” is enjoyable for its blackly absurd stories: the 14th
century weirdness that found 3 guys simultaneously claiming to be Pope;
the exhumed corpse of Pope Formosus put on trial; the teenage Pope John
XII raping pilgrims in St. Peter’s Basilica; the College of Cardinals
stalling on choosing a new Pope so long the mob tears its roof off; the
legendary antics of the Borgia and Medici dynasties; the corruption,
ineptitude and libertinism carried out on a grand scale; and so on. The
wars, Inquisitions, and lootings also add spice.
> If it is anti-papist propaganda it pales in comparison to the piles of
> holey hagiographies & anemic apologies hatched by the "holy" hierarchy.
The simple facts themselves constitute a sort of anti-papist propaganda.
elag
Okay, you convinced me. I'll have to at least skim it... I can use a
good larf.