Any endocrinologists reading this???
Joe Larson
Has anyone had a similar experience to mine? I would
appreciate any suggestions and/or advice.
I have suffered from depression for 20 years, and also
am very suspicious that I am hypothyroid. My doctors
have tested my TSH, free T3, and free T4, on several
occasions, and the values come back in the normal range.
Because of this, they tell me that I am NOT hypothyroid.
However, I have many of the symptoms of being hypothyroid.
I have fatigue, depression, weight gain, intolerance to
cold, bradycardia (slow heart rate), parasthesia (numbness
and tingling) in my hands, as well as 3 other symptoms that
I cannot think of right at the moment. I remember reading
an article about hypothyroidism in a medical reference
book, and that I have 9 of the 18 symptoms which were listed.
I have also read an article in a medical journal which states...
"In patients with depressive disorder, TSH, T3,and T4 lab
values are unreliable." My doctor chooses to ignore this,
and declare me to be euthyroid based on my TSH, etc. He
has no explanation for my new symptoms of bradycardia and
parasthesia, and says that my other symptoms are fairly
non-specific, and may simply be symptoms of my depression.
I have heard from a friend recently, that endocrinologists
can do more extensive testing to determine thyroid status
even when the TSH, T3, and T4 are within normal limits.
The only endocrinologist that I ever went to simply repeated
the TSH, free T3, and free T4 tests which my primary doctor
had already done. He then declared me to be euthyroid based
on those test results, and declined to give me any thyroid
medication. When I sent him a letter stating that the
combination of refractory depression and suspected hypothyroidism
cause me to have increased suicidal tendencies, he took it
as a threat (or a manipulation to try to get him to give me a
script for Cytomel and/or Synthroid), and he dropped me like
a hot potato. I guess I did not really want to see him again
after all, since he declared me to be euthyroid, and would not
budge on this diagnosis no matter what I had to say or what
my symptoms were. What ever happened to "Treat the patient,
not the lab results"?
I am very frustrated, because I truly believe that I am
hypothyroid, and I also believe that this condition prevents
me from feeling well EVEN when my depression is under control.
If any endocrinologist happens to read this message, please
e-mail me with any suggestions that you may have for me. Even
if you are not an endocrinologist, advice would be appreciated.
In addition to treatment-resistant recurrent depression, and
possibly hypothyroidism, I also suffer from restless legs
syndrome and nocturnal myoclonus (muscle jerking while asleep).
I am seeing a neurologist for these, and I take three different
medications, which help a little, but not a lot. I have strong
suspicions that all of my medical problems are somehow inter-
related, but nobody else, including my docors, seem to think so.
Please send comments, suggestions, or advice via e-mail to:
Sincerely,
Joe Larson
salarmy4me
sometimes give their patients thyroid hormone anyway. Dr.
Whybrow of UCLA is a pioneer in this treatment.
I am euthyroid but I take 50 mcg of Synthroid and I don't
know if I am feeling any results.
* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
LostBoyinNC
trial of thyroid hormone to augment your antidepressants with.
That is an extremely basic augmentation practice in mainstream
psychiatry. Right up there with lithium augmentation in terms of
commonality of practice.
There are some theories in psychiatry that some depressives,
especially some treatment resistant ones, have problems
converting from T4 to T3. There are also some theories that some
depressives have problems "using" T3 in their brains even though
thyroid blood tests (TSH, free T4, free T3) come back fine.
Thus, some treatment resistant depressives may benefit from
adding a little(not much) Cytomel to their antidepressants to
activate their antidepressants.
I would recommend reading a book called "The Thyroid Solution"
by Dr. Ridha Arem MD. Dr Arem is a renowned endocrinologist and
his book is pretty new and up to date on the latest ideas about
the relationships between thyroid and depression. He talks about
subclinical hypothyroidism, he says T3(Cytomel) can even be used
as an antidepressant in itself. It is a good book.
If depression is your problem, I would forget about trying to
get endocrinologists to give you Synthroid or Cytomel. Most
endocrinologists are very conservative...anal even compared to a
lot of other types of doctors. A lot of them tend to be pure
numbers/statistics types...kind of like CPAs or
accountants...bean counters...dweebs. If you want thyroid
hormones for the purposes you are talking about you need to get
it from a psychopharmacologist. Psychopharmacologists tend to be
a lot more aggressive and daring even when it comes to
prescribing medications for depression compared to endocrinology
doctors.
The TRH test mentioned before on this post is not a mainstream
thyroid test anymore. It was more common back in the old days
before HMOs and managed care. Unless you have extremely good
insurance and/or are loaded with cash, you will most likely run
into a lot of resistance if you try to get a TRH test done in
addition to the standard thyroid tests. To put it bluntly, very
few doctors will order a TRH no matter how bad you push for it
unless you are medication resistant and have very, very good
unrestrictive insurance.
I would forget about getting a TRH if you have a greedy, control
freak HMO like many of us do. The doctors are under pressure to
keep "costs down." If that means you go undertreated
somewhat...so be it and it is all legal.
Eric
"A medal for me, a body bag for you." Colonel Charlie Beckwith US Army
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Siobhan
Joe Larson <joel...@kcnet.com> wrote:
>
> Has anyone had a similar experience to mine? I would
> appreciate any suggestions and/or advice.
>
> I have suffered from depression for 20 years, and also
> am very suspicious that I am hypothyroid. My doctors
> have tested my TSH, free T3, and free T4, on several
> occasions, and the values come back in the normal range.
> Because of this, they tell me that I am NOT hypothyroid.
You can ask for a TRH (thyrotropin-releasing hormone) test. Have you
ever been tested for anti-thyroid antibodies? The most common form of
hypothyroidism is Hashimoto's thyroiditis, an autoimmune disease.
Some doctors will treat for hypothyroidism based on symptoms or basal
temperature. The Broda Barnes Research Foundation can give you a
referral. http://brodabarnes.org/
I'm sure you'll get many helpful responses. Good luck.
Siobhan, not an endo
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Lois
: Has anyone had a similar experience to mine? <snip>
Joe, your story is unfortunately very familiar here. A lot of doctors,
esp. endos, tend to go only by the numbers. However, there are good
and knowledgeable doctors out there, and others who are open-minded
and can learn the latest about lab results and hypo. I just e-mailed
you our Welcome & Reading for FAQ. (I also just posted it for those
who haven't seen it yet.) One of the links near the end is about
finding and dealing with doctors--look there to see if anyone
recommended is in your area. You can also post your location here to
see if anyone can recommend a doctor near you. Someone else already
mentioned the Broda Barnes organization.
Keep reading here, and you won't feel alone. There is help.
Lois
Anne (UK)
my style to shame! (My excuse is the brain fog I experience due to
hypOthyroidism!)
Hope you swiftly find a solution.
Anne (UK) <an...@progress.freeserve.co.uk>
"Joe Larson" <joel...@kcnet.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.13d3fbd44...@news.kcnet.com...
>
> Has anyone had a similar experience to mine? I would
> appreciate any suggestions and/or advice.
>
> I have suffered from depression for 20 years, and also
> am very suspicious that I am hypothyroid. My doctors
> have tested my TSH, free T3, and free T4, on several
> occasions, and the values come back in the normal range.
> Because of this, they tell me that I am NOT hypothyroid.
>
Judy
I'm not sure from your message what drugs if any you're taking for the
depression? Lithium will cause hypothyroidism as I found out a while back.
The interesting thing is that when I went to the doctor complaining of
depression he then ordered TSH etc etc as he suspected my thyroid had carked
it. Anyway initially they came back normal so he didn't treat me for it but
when I was re-tested 3 months later I was declared hypothyroid.
Maybe you are in that period before it's showing on the blood work even
though you feel the symptoms?
One interesting thing is that 'restless legs' which I hadn't suffered with
in 15 years returned during the 3 months before diagnosis.
Once I started on thyroxine they went away and have not recurred. It could
be coincidence but you never know.
Judy
Christina Foster
I didn't have initial symptoms, etc, either. But when I started taking
thyroid pills, my hair started getting longer, for the first time in 25
years. It helped a lot. But not enough. I too think it is a disorder of a
broader system. HGH (human growth hormone) has been helpful for a broad
range of things. Unfortunately, the only drug I had a significant positive
response to was Fenflouramine. Yup, good old unavailable fen-phen. Damn.
Christina
Christina Foster
years, my new doctor had me tested for osteoporosis. Apparently, excess
thyroid can leach bones. On the other hand when she raised the thyroid
medication from 1 to 2 pills after a year, it was helpful to me. I'm sure
some people need a little more than others.
Christina
salarmy4me <salarmy4m...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:00372b38...@usw-ex0109-068.remarq.com...
Ted Huston
alt.support.thyroid for long: No, there are no docs around, endo or
otherwise. I have deleted the other newsgroups from this post, simply
because of the cross-talk that that generates.
It is in the nature of this newsgroup to tie positively everything
to the thyroid. It is surprising, perhaps, how this can be done.
Everything CAN have a relation to the thyroid. Everything. Doesn't
mean that there really is a cause/effect relationship, though.
Testing isn't without flaws, but repeatedly getting results "in range"
for the appropriate tests, should be a suggestion that maybe it would
be wise to cast the net a bit wider, and look beyond the thyroid.
Before I get flamed by the group, I'll expand a bit on "appropriate
tests". Certainly TSH alone is a mistake, since it is a pituitary
hormone, not a thyroid one. T3 is the active thyroid hormone, so it
should be included. However, most of the thyroid hormones are bound
to proteins in the serum, so measuring BOTH total-hormone and free-
hormone can be diagnostic. An indirect measure of the binding proteins
is accomplished in the T3-uptake test; this with a total-hormone, esp
T4, can pass without need for direct measures of free-T4. Because
those binding proteins have effects beyond just our little world of the
thyroid, it can be a very useful test (esp for women, since estrogen plays
a large role here, but men can benefit, too).
If swinging back and forth between hypo to hyper symptoms, or hypo
and normal, etc, then a scan for nodules may help. Similarly, looking
for antibodies can be a help in predicting failure. Evaluating any
and all drugs (which includes "healthfood" supplements) is also
important.
Now then, to get back to where I was going, given the constant nature
of your having depression for 20 years, and repeated thyroid testing
has come back "normal", I personally am less inclined to blame the
thyroid. None of the symptoms you relate are specific or unique to
the thyroid. Although depression is an symptom in its own right, it
can lead to things that can contribute to other symptoms, such as
eating/gaining weight, lack of interest/exercise, or poor nutrition, etc,
which then contribute to those other symptoms you have noted. There are
bazillions of causes of depression, and so far you have ruled out the
thyroid, despite your desires. Nutritionally, the more common things
might be pernicious anemia, iron excess, magnesium imbalance....have
any of these been checked? Bradycardia and circulation problems
leading to cold intolerance, esp in the extremeties, suggest the
adrenal system, kidney function and so forth. How wide are you allowing
the net to be cast beyond the thyroid?
What else has been tested? What has been your experience with anti-
depression medications? Have any helped?
Just suggestions......
Joe Larson wrote:
> I have suffered from depression for 20 years, and also
> am very suspicious that I am hypothyroid. My doctors
> have tested my TSH, free T3, and free T4, on several
> occasions, and the values come back in the normal range.
> Because of this, they tell me that I am NOT hypothyroid.
>
> However, I have many of the symptoms of being hypothyroid.
> I have fatigue, depression, weight gain, intolerance to
> cold, bradycardia (slow heart rate), parasthesia (numbness
> and tingling) in my hands, as well as 3 other symptoms that
> I cannot think of right at the moment. I remember reading
> an article about hypothyroidism in a medical reference
> book, and that I have 9 of the 18 symptoms which were listed.
<snip>
> In addition to treatment-resistant recurrent depression, and
> possibly hypothyroidism, I also suffer from restless legs
> syndrome and nocturnal myoclonus (muscle jerking while asleep).
> I am seeing a neurologist for these, and I take three different
> medications, which help a little, but not a lot. I have strong
> suspicions that all of my medical problems are somehow inter-
> related, but nobody else, including my docors, seem to think so.
--
Ted Huston dr...@umich.edu
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory.
Lois
you cast a wide and useful net, but what about the possibility that
Joe's numbers are "in range" but well outside where they need to be
for him to feel well? We don't know if, for example, his TSH was "in
range" at 1.5 or 4.5, and that makes all the difference to most of us.
I wonder if hypo really is ruled out. If so, perhaps I'd better stop
taking my thyroid meds, because the highest my TSH has ever been is
5.5, and that's "in range."
Lois
--
I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and
give the wrong answers.
Ted wrote <important info about thyroid tests snipped>:
: Now then, to get back to where I was going, given the constant
nature
: of your having depression for 20 years, and repeated thyroid testing
: has come back "normal", I personally am less inclined to blame the
: thyroid. None of the symptoms you relate are specific or unique to
: the thyroid. Although depression is an symptom in its own right, it
: can lead to things that can contribute to other symptoms, such as
: eating/gaining weight, lack of interest/exercise, or poor nutrition,
etc,
: which then contribute to those other symptoms you have noted. There
are
: bazillions of causes of depression, and so far you have ruled out
the
: thyroid, despite your desires. <other suggestions snipped>
Ted Huston
has been going on for 20years. If recent testing is "in range", it
probably was in range back when, too. The distinction is that if
this were a recent episode (meaning less than a year or so), it may
indeed be a slow descent of a failing thyroid. But after 20 years?
I don't think so....in all that time, SOMETHING would have given out,
don't you think? [If you had only had the patience to wait it out,
we'd have seen how high we could your TSH....(not recommended). :o) ]
In this person's case, we don't know what thyroid tests have been done in
the past, only TSH, free-T3 and free-T4 somewhat recently. And we don't
know whether that TSH was above the magic level of 2.0 cited in the BMJ
article. Antibodies would be a good clue. T3-uptake would be useful
(either that or total-T4...we're looking for transport problems here).
And we don't know which, if any, drugs are being used to treat the
depression, which maybe could have affected the results. We don't know
if there is a cycle to the depression, or to extremes of mood, which
might suggest nodules. Etc, etc, etc....
The option is still out there to find someone who will prescribe
thyroid hormone treatment despite the NUMBers. In the time that I have
been around this newsgroup, that has been a mixed bag. If people have
been successful, they haven't come back bearing such news. But we have
heard from a few that failed. How much time do you want to spend fine
tuning? I suppose in this case, hey, what's a few more years after the
20 invested so far, but.... If TSH is satisfied now, adding more hormone
is only going to give the gland a rest, at least until that dose added is
above what his thyroid could have produced. Working to that threshold
will take some time. And I agree it might work. Then again, my gut
feeling that I wrote from in the 1st reply is that it PROBABLY won't.
By ONLY looking at this as a thyroid problem may be missing the big picture
of it being secondary to something else. This is the root controversy
over treating non-thyroidal illness syndrome.
Lois wrote:
> Ted, our wonderful Ted (gotta make sure you know I'm not flaming you),
> you cast a wide and useful net, but what about the possibility that
> Joe's numbers are "in range" but well outside where they need to be
> for him to feel well? We don't know if, for example, his TSH was "in
> range" at 1.5 or 4.5, and that makes all the difference to most of us.
> I wonder if hypo really is ruled out. If so, perhaps I'd better stop
> taking my thyroid meds, because the highest my TSH has ever been is
> 5.5, and that's "in range."
rosie@readandpost
> You'll get a lot of valuable information there. Good luck.
>
> Rochelle
where could i find this?
--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie
......we have deprived ourselves too long. there is no need to do that
anymore.
if it feels good, and the consequences are self-loving and not
self-defeating, do it!
Rochelle Mehr
"rosie@readandpost" <reada...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0XSl5.19267$E05.3...@nntp0.chicago.il.ameritech.net...
> > Please look at the links in the "Welcome & Reading for FAQ *****"
message.
> > You'll get a lot of valuable information there. Good luck.
> >
> > Rochelle
>
>
> where could i find this?
One way is to go to
http://www.remarq.com
In "Find a Message Board," search for "alt.support.thyroid"
Then "Search (in this Message Board)" for "Welcome"
or else go to
http://www.deja.com/home_ps.shtml
and search under "Welcome + Reading for FAQ *****" for John Riggs' 2
messages dated 7/31/00
Rochelle Mehr
"Rochelle Mehr" <rochel...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:_cUl5.1047$QT3....@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
> One way is to go to
> http://www.remarq.com
> In "Find a Message Board," search for "alt.support.thyroid"
> Then "Search (in this Message Board)" for "Welcome"
After you search for "alt.support.thyroid" you have to click on "Thyroid -
Support" and then you'll get to the page where you can "Search (in this
Message Board)" for " Welcome"
LostBoyinNC
claim, most depression is NOT rooted in mild or subtle thyroid
problems. Most depression is rooted in, well, depression! It is
easy to get sucked into this notion that one's depression is
possibly caused by hypothyroidism as there is a lot of
literature out there claiming that. In fact, I myself wondered
whether my depression was being caused by mild thyroid
abnormalities, especially since I dont fully respond to meds.
It is just not the case that most depression can be helped or
cured by correcting underlying thyroid probs. That is wishful
thinking and it oftentimes goes hand in hand with the denial of
depression thing. "Im not depressed, I just have an undiagnosed,
mild thyroid problem." BULL!
Lets not forget that ultimately most depression cases are caused
by psychiatric reasons(brain malfunctioning) and not thyroid
probs.
Another thing I noted about Mary is she seems very vehement
about her opinion. She kind of acts almost like she is an MD
when she is FAR from being a Medical Doctor. She has a nice
website and there is a lot of info on there. Ive seen her book
before also. Personally though, I liked "The Thyroid Solution"
by Dr. Ridha Arem MD better. That is a good book and is really
up to date.
Eric
"A medal for me and a body bag for you." Colonel Charlie Beckwith US Army
Steroids caused my depression...prednisone should be used conservatively.
Jean
LostBoyinNC wrote:
> It should be noted that despite what people like Mary Shoman
> claim, most depression is NOT rooted in mild or subtle thyroid
> problems. Most depression is rooted in, well, depression! It is
> easy to get sucked into this notion that one's depression is
> possibly caused by hypothyroidism as there is a lot of
> literature out there claiming that. In fact, I myself wondered
> whether my depression was being caused by mild thyroid
> abnormalities, especially since I dont fully respond to meds.
>
> It is just not the case that most depression can be helped or
> cured by correcting underlying thyroid probs. That is wishful
> thinking and it oftentimes goes hand in hand with the denial of
> depression thing. "Im not depressed, I just have an undiagnosed,
> mild thyroid problem." BULL!
>
> Lets not forget that ultimately most depression cases are caused
> by psychiatric reasons(brain malfunctioning)
Sorry, I hate generalizations like that last statement.
Some weepy women are tagged "depressed" (can be hormones or emotional)
Some angry people are tagged "depressed" (they have true reasons to be angry
and need practical help, not a psychiatrist)
Some stressed people are tagged "depressed" (and often end up on medications
when really they need community help and some stress counselling).
Some depressed people manage to scam the whole world..look at some chronic
drinkers please or those shooters or that psychologist who jumped in front of
the subway in Toronto with her 6-month old on the weekend.
Having low thyroid can cause symptoms similar to depression or cause minor
depression to worsen.
Many chronic illnesses can do the same.
Let's keep the psychiatric/psycological mumbo-jumbo out of the thyroid
please.
Thanks
IMO
J
Michael Baugh
Theresa
LindaG68
being a sometime cause of depression. This poster suspects it is in his
case so referred him to a site helpful to me.
I found Mary Shoman informative but always glad to have a better source
so thanks for mentioning one you thought Dr. Ahem is better.
Lois, thanks for providing the site.
Linda
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
BL 1204
temperatures are normal, heart rate normal, etc. If you are still depressed on
the amount of thyroid meds it takes to do the above, then your depression is
probably due to something other than hypothyroidism. Oh, I forgot to mention,
make sure your adrenals are working properly too.
Obviously not all depression is related to thyroid medication. All I can say
is my daughter's counselor wanted to send her to a psychiatrist for treatment
for bipolar when she reduced her thyroid meds on instruction from the
endocrinologist!!
Yes, it corrected back after she increased meds, but it took a month or so to
get stable again.
This is just one case, but I suspect not the only one by a long shot.
BL
Lois
http://x51.deja.com/[ST_rn=ap]/getdoc.xp?AN=653057585
and
http://x51.deja.com/[ST_rn=ap]/getdoc.xp?AN=653057688
If the whole links aren't underlined for you, copy and paste into
an address line.
Lois
Rosie wrote:
: where could i find this?
Rochelle wrote:
: > Please look at the links in the "Welcome & Reading for FAQ
Lois
While Mary Shomon discusses thyroid problems and depression at
www.thyroid.about.com, I don't think she ever claims that *most*
depression is rooted in thyroid problems. OTOH, she does discuss
treatment for depression if treatment for thyroid disorders
doesn't clear up the
depression(http://thyroid.about.com/health/thyroid/library/weekly/
aa120897.htm).
If you prefer other sources of info, just about every list of
symptoms for hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism includes
depression on the list. Of course, not everyone with thyroid
problems has depression or all the other symptoms.
I'm glad you like Dr. Arem's book _The Thyroid Solution: A Mind-
Body Program for Beating Depression and Regaining Your Emotional
and Physical Health_. That's the complete title, BTW.
Lois
Eric wrote:
: It should be noted that despite what people like Mary Shoman
: claim, most depression is NOT rooted in mild or subtle thyroid
: problems. Most depression is rooted in, well, depression! It is
: easy to get sucked into this notion that one's depression is
: possibly caused by hypothyroidism as there is a lot of
: literature out there claiming that. In fact, I myself wondered
: whether my depression was being caused by mild thyroid
: abnormalities, especially since I dont fully respond to meds.
:
: It is just not the case that most depression can be helped or
: cured by correcting underlying thyroid probs. That is wishful
: thinking and it oftentimes goes hand in hand with the denial of
: depression thing. "Im not depressed, I just have an undiagnosed,
: mild thyroid problem." BULL!
:
: Lets not forget that ultimately most depression cases are caused
: by psychiatric reasons(brain malfunctioning) and not thyroid
: probs.
:
: Another thing I noted about Mary is she seems very vehement
: about her opinion. She kind of acts almost like she is an MD
: when she is FAR from being a Medical Doctor. She has a nice
: website and there is a lot of info on there. Ive seen her book
Lakaya
couselor but if you look at his life, he shouldnt be depressed...nothing major
has happened physically or medically in his life. i on the other hand....parts
of my life reads like a soap opera, i was given the pecarious choice 'get cut
open for a chance to live...or die', i wear a hearing aid...i can hear a radio
and not a tv, i can hear my honey, my dad, but not my own kids or my mom, i cant
even hear my own voice.... and guess what....im not now, nor have i ever
suffered a major amount of depression. i've seen couselors and sought out
support groups...like this one, cuz i do feel no matter what im going thru.....i
cant be the only one, theres simply too many folks on the planet for me to be
that darn unique. i believe "dont sweat the small stuff and its ALL small
stuff" and that works for me....so like i said its all individual. i mean i
know why my honey is depressed....and truth be told....should be angry, not
depressed. and according to all my folks <mom, dad, relatives, my honey,
co-workers> the fact that im not depressed is 'amazing'. but you see....those
things dont press any of my buttons....i have 3 kids....those are my buttons,
every thing else is just life. and thats another point....KNOW your stressors.
know what will and wont set you off. then keep your main stressors hidden from
public knowledge that way no one can sneaky up on you with stuff to drive you
bats.
what i am trying to say....is even if depression is linked to thyroid.....its
not a strong link. sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Lakaya