Ferritin
nrsmac
done so crappy on my meds. One, we're starting filler free armour.
Second I have no ferritin, literally. My doc couldn't believe they
are non existant and he said the only ferritin I'm getting is from
food. Can someone please explain to me how that effects your thyoid
meds?
Kimmie
Dee
It is possible to have no ferritin. When I was diagnosed with Celiac, I had
zero ferritin. Mine is now around 30 (it should be at least 70 in order to
handle the thyroid medication properly), and I'm taking liquid floravit.
But, it's also very important to have your B12 levels in the proper range in
order to utilize the iron. Another forum I read recommends 800 - 1000. Mine
is almost 700, after taking a sublingual B12 because of low B12. I'm still
working on getting it a bit higher.
re: Ferritin and its effect on thyroid medication, this is from the
stopthethyroidmadness website:
"Biologically, insufficient iron levels may be affecting the first two of
three steps of thyroid hormone synthesis by reducing the activity of the
enzyme thyroid peroxidase, which is dependent on iron. Iron deficiency, in
turn, may also alter thyroid metabolism and reduce the conversion of T4 to
T3, besides modifying the binding of T3. Additionally, low iron levels can
increase circulating concentrations of TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone)."
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/ferritin/
Dee
"nrsmac" <rak...@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
news:d480074c-7c67-4c72...@c60g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
nrsmac
> Hi Kimmie,
>
> It is possible to have no ferritin. When I was diagnosed with Celiac, I had
> zero ferritin. Mine is now around 30 (it should be at least 70 in order to
> handle the thyroid medication properly), and I'm taking liquid floravit.
> But, it's also very important to have your B12 levels in the proper range in
> order to utilize the iron. Another forum I read recommends 800 - 1000. Mine
> is almost 700, after taking a sublingual B12 because of low B12. I'm still
> working on getting it a bit higher.
>
> re: Ferritin and its effect on thyroid medication, this is from the
> stopthethyroidmadness website:
>
> "Biologically, insufficient iron levels may be affecting the first two of
> three steps of thyroid hormone synthesis by reducing the activity of the
> enzyme thyroid peroxidase, which is dependent on iron. Iron deficiency, in
> turn, may also alter thyroid metabolism and reduce the conversion of T4 to
> T3, besides modifying the binding of T3. Additionally, low iron levels can
> increase circulating concentrations of TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone)."
>
> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/ferritin/
>
> Dee
>
>
> news:d480074c-7c67-4c72...@c60g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Well, I think I may have found a huge piece of the puzzel on why I've
> > done so crappy on my meds. One, we're starting filler free armour.
> > Second I have no ferritin, literally. My doc couldn't believe they
> > are non existant and he said the only ferritin I'm getting is from
> > food. Can someone please explain to me how that effects your thyoid
> > meds?
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks Dee, that would explain alot. Still getting nasting burning in
my legs though. I hate this.
Kimmie
Jason
<d480074c-7c67-4c72...@c60g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
nrsmac <rak...@cogeco.ca> wrote:
Kimmie,
If possible, have your doctor run a complete Ferritin and complete "iron
panel" and post the results. In most cases, when Ferritin is below the
reference range, your iron level is also below the reference range. If
that is the case, the best cure is to start taking an iron pill at least
once per week. Also, take a vit. C capsule and a Betaine HCI capsule.
Those items can be purchased at a health food store. The vit. C capsule
and Betaine HCI capsule will help your cells to absorb the iron. The end
result should be a higher Ferritin level on your next blood test. If your
iron level and Ferritin level are still low after the next blood
test--start taking an iron pill two or three times per week. Low Ferritin
levels means that you don't have enough iron in your cells. In my case,
my iron level was normal and my ferritin level was below the reference
range. The doctor thought I was losing blood but despite lots of
procedures have not found any evidence that I am losing blood. I can't
take iron pills to increase my Ferritin score since excess iron levels can
damage the liver. However, if your iron level is below the reference
range, you can take iron pills without being concerned with liver damage.
Talk to your doctor about this issue.
Jason
Dee
requisition : P ) is usually normal, too. It's the ferritin that moves up
like a turtle, for me (at least it's moving up now). My red blood cell (RBC)
count is always low. And my MCH is low, too (which Rod pointed out to me was
indicative of low B12 as a cause of my anemia). Thanks Rod. : )
I use Floravit liquid herbal iron (it's a gluten-free formula, if anyone has
that concern - although there is a regular formula that contains gluten) -
*twice a day*, everyday. I've even doubled the dose temporarily, just to see
if it will bring up my ferritin more. It's very gentle and non-constipating
(supposedly), and it seems to be working as long as I keep my B12 levels up
there, too (which I also take everyday).
Dee
"Jason" <Ja...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Jason-07100...@66-53-218-248.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com...
nrsmac
> In article
> <d480074c-7c67-4c72-8873-00d8a822b...@c60g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
Jason, why are you concerned about liver damage? If your ferritin is
extremely low, then what do you do for that? Now what is considered a
full iron panel, iron, ferritin, TIBC and saturation?
Kimmie
Jason
<45592eaf-956d-4f36...@u65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
nrsmac <rak...@cogeco.ca> wrote:
> On Oct 8, 1:06=A0am, Ja...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> > In article
> > <d480074c-7c67-4c72-8873-00d8a822b...@c60g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > nrsmac <raks...@cogeco.ca> wrote:
> > > Well, I think I may have found a huge piece of the puzzel on why I've
> > > done so crappy on my meds. =A0One, we're starting filler free armour.
> > > Second I have no ferritin, literally. =A0My doc couldn't believe they
> > > are non existant and he said the only ferritin I'm getting is from
> > > food. =A0Can someone please explain to me how that effects your thyoid
> > > meds?
> >
> > > Kimmie
> >
> > Kimmie,
> > If possible, have your doctor run a complete Ferritin and complete "iron
> > panel" and post the results. In most cases, when Ferritin is below the
> > reference range, your iron level is also below the reference range. If
> > that is the case, the best cure is to start taking an iron pill at least
> > once per week. Also, take a vit. C capsule and a Betaine HCI capsule.
> > Those items can be purchased at a health food store. The vit. C capsule
> > and Betaine HCI capsule will help your cells to absorb the iron. The end
> > result should be a higher Ferritin level on your next blood test. If your
> > iron level and Ferritin level are still low after the next blood
> > test--start taking an iron pill two or three times per week. Low Ferritin
> > levels means that you don't have enough iron in your cells. =A0In my case=
> ,
> > my iron level was normal and my ferritin level was below the reference
> > range. The doctor thought I was losing blood but despite lots of
> > procedures have not found any evidence that I am losing blood. I can't
> > take iron pills to increase my Ferritin score since excess iron levels ca=
> n
> > damage the liver. However, if your iron level is below the reference
> > range, you can take iron pills without being concerned with liver damage.
> > Talk to your doctor about this issue.
> > Jason
>
> Jason, why are you concerned about liver damage? If your ferritin is
> extremely low, then what do you do for that? Now what is considered a
> full iron panel, iron, ferritin, TIBC and saturation?
>
> Kimmie
Kimmie,
As long as the Iron level is within the reference range, it will NOT cause
liver damage. The technical name of the disease is hemochromatosis. The
excess iron levels cause the liver to be enlarged and impaired. The people
that have that disease have a disorder that prevents their body from
removing the iron so their iron levels are far above the reference range.
They usually die as a result of liver disease. I was taking iron pills
every day and my iron level was above the reference range. My doctor told
me to cut back since my AST and ALT levels were both starting to rise but
were still with the reference ranges. My doctor told me to cut back and
only take one iron pill per week.
The doctor also told me that the low ferritin level could mean that I am
losing blood. I have already had a colonoscopy and several other
procedures but as of yet there is no evidence that I am losing blood.
The items on a full iron panel are:
iron
TIBC
percent saturation
unsaturated iron binding
ferritin
Jason
> Jason, My iron level (serum iron - I just looked at my blood test
> requisition : P ) is usually normal, too. It's the ferritin that moves up
> like a turtle, for me (at least it's moving up now). My red blood cell (RBC)
> count is always low. And my MCH is low, too (which Rod pointed out to me was
> indicative of low B12 as a cause of my anemia). Thanks Rod. : )
>
> I use Floravit liquid herbal iron (it's a gluten-free formula, if anyone has
> that concern - although there is a regular formula that contains gluten) -
> *twice a day*, everyday. I've even doubled the dose temporarily, just to see
> if it will bring up my ferritin more. It's very gentle and non-constipating
> (supposedly), and it seems to be working as long as I keep my B12 levels up
> there, too (which I also take everyday).
>
> Dee
Dee,
You may want to request a referral to see a doctor that is a specialist in
Hematology (blood doctor). It's possible that you are losing blood.
Yes, low B12 levels can cause anemia. You should ask your doctor to test
your B12 level.
You can keep taking doses of iron but cut back on the dose if your iron
level goes above the reference range. The reason is that iron levels above
the reference range can cause liver problems.
jason
deT notsuH
must have been taken to the hospital in a body bag..... "Below detection"
or "less than [some NUMBer]", maybe, but *not* "ZERO." Apologies, as I
am a lab rat and do analyses for a living.... Readings below about
10ng/mL lead to a person not functioning very well at all.
Meanwhile, the real reason I wanted to reply is to comment on a possibility
that may have been overlooked. Sure, the usual suspect problem with low
ferritin is iron-deficiency anemia. Certainly, this can come about from
not eating iron-rich foods, but also from inadequate absorption due to such
things as Celiac or reduced stomach acid; green veggies may be a good source
of iron for the vegetarians, but iron from meat is waaaaay better absorbed.
Another thing on the list for low ferritin would be blood loss, which is
typically pretty obvious except colorectal. Interestingly, anemia of chronic
disease does NOT in itself lead to low ferritin. However, and here I am
finally getting to the point, there is a significant interference in the
way most labs run the test from drugs like vitamin C that give a falsely
low result. If you are such a person that takes a lot of vitamin C, BEWARE,
the ferritin test may not be a reliable measure of your iron stores.
--
deT notsuH bass-ackwards ude.hcimu@pcird
"Aging is an issue of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it
doesn't matter."
Gail
>However, and here I am
> finally getting to the point, there is a significant interference in the
> way most labs run the test from drugs like vitamin C that give a falsely
> low result. If you are such a person that takes a lot of vitamin C, BEWARE,
> the ferritin test may not be a reliable measure of your iron stores.
> --
Hi Ted,
Do you know what sort of dosage of Vitamin C interferes with the test?
Does it interfere with just the test or does it do something to
Ferritin itself? Would not taking any for a day or two or longer
before the blood test have any impact?
Gail
deT notsuH
It seems to me that there are three ways to handle this situation:
A - Own the decision to take a non-natural = drug level of whatever
nutrient, in this case vitamin C. This means accept the consequences
of the decision, including that you can't get real ferritin results.
At what level does a nutrient cross over from just being "just a
nutrient" into being a drug? It varies from nutrient to nutrient, of
course, but a good and simple rule of thumb is 3-5 times the daily
value. Beyond that level for most becomes very difficult to get in
a balanced, real world diet. I know the rationale is that the B
vitamins and C are all "water-soluble and therefore inherently safe".
Unfortunately, if that is true, then how could it be that esp the Bs
all have consequences at high levels? Kidney stones (B2), vasodilation
(niacin), nerve damage (B6), hypoglycemia (biotin), etc, and the recent
studies of antioxidants (including vitamins C and E, and selenium) and
some of the Bs like folic acid and B6 actually showing AN INCREASE in
heart-related disease (look up POPADAD for a very recent addition to
this saga). By owning your decision, you trust the folks that "sold"
you the goods, and they may be fantastic folks like doctors.
B - Re-evaluate the reasons for taking high doses of vitamin C and
maybe, just maybe, realize that the reasons are hokum. Such levels
are NOT natural, and could be deleterious. Ok, the fantastic folks
are great, but are they watching out for your best interests or their's?
C - [tongue fully in cheek here] How many weeks before the company
drug-check do you stop smoking crack so your "habit" doesn't get
"caught"?
I can get behind A and B. I cannot get behind C. That is just me, I
realize.
Gail
I'm a bit confused about your point - is it just that Vitamin C is a
drug? Or is it that some labs have poor testing procedures?
It's also a bit confusing because a lot of people who take iron
supplements will take it with Vitamin C to enhance absorption, and
will also see their ferritin levels going up over time - so maybe it's
not all a waste of time. My point here is that from what you say any
Vitamin C is going to interfere with the test results - but the tests
results will change from a base starting point so it doesn't really
seem to matter.
I would also argue that the level at which a nutrient becomes a drug
is not an arbitrary 3-5 times the daily value (daily value is also a
bit arbitrary in itself) but the level at which it begins to have a
pharmocological action rather than a nutrient action - and this level
can be a very individual response.
In the POPADAD study "The antioxidant capsule contained alpha-
tocopherol 200 mg, ascorbic acid 100 mg, pyridoxine hydrochloride 25
mg, zinc sulphate 10 mg, nicotinamide 10 mg, lecithin 9.4 mg, and
sodium selenite 0.8 mg." and this combination correlated to a worse
outcome than doing nothing. - Seriously.... have you found an
'antioxidant' mixture like this available in a Vitamin outlet or
prescribed by anyone with with a good background in alternative
health. A study like this is ridiculous - just the dose of Selenium
alone and it's form as selenite should tell you that.
Gail.
Rod
Gail,
I'd just like to point out that selenite has been specifically suggested
for prevention of prostate cancer. I have not studied things
sufficiently to be sure that the research all stacks up, but I gained
the impression that some regard it as more appropriate than the
organo-selenium compounds. (Whereas I gathered the opposite for
thyroid-related purposes.)
Maybe the answer will end up being a bit of each?
A paper, but not the one I rememeber, going on about selenite and
prostate cancer:
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18676679>
--
Rod
Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
<www.thyromind.info> <www.thyroiduk.org> <www.altsupportthyroid.org>
Gail
> I'd just like to point out that selenite has been specifically suggested
> for prevention of prostate cancer. I have not studied things
> sufficiently to be sure that the research all stacks up, but I gained
> the impression that some regard it as more appropriate than the
> organo-selenium compounds. (Whereas I gathered the opposite for
> thyroid-related purposes.)
Yes Rod,
I remember learning that from you in another thread, no argument with
that, but the dosage here of .8mg of Selenite is high - the selenite
is more easily toxic than the organic form and if any of the people in
the study already had good levels of selenium it would be an overdose
- do you think they thought to check people's levels or dietary intake
before they started the study?
That it was given with Vitamin C may have been the only thing that
stopped worse outcomes than were seen, because when taken together
Vitamin C reacts with the Selenite form to decrease it's absorption.I
wonder if they researched this before they threw the 'antioxidant'
combination together. And what's with a dose of 100mg of Vit C? -
that is actually tiny compared to the doses that Linus Pauling
recommended - so a dose of Vitamin C that is not really enough to do
anything except maybe prevent symptoms of Scurvy, but probably wasn't
even available to do this because it was busy binding to the large
dose of Selenium are just the starting points of what's wrong with the
combination.
Gail.
Rod
Agreed the dose seems far too high. My choice is to have a bit of
selenite and a bit of organ0-selenium - probably alternate when I get
myself organised enough!
Dietary intakes seem to have become almost impossible to establish -
where our food comes from is often obscure, let alone knowing the
selenium status of that part of the world. And checking an individual's
diet is surely an impossible overhead? OK - so a regular measurement of
some sort might indicate overall average intake. And that certainly
should have been considered.
Sorry for repeating myself.
Gail
> Sorry for repeating myself.
Thanks for repeating yourself, really,
Gail.
deT notsuH
> Hi Ted,
>
> I'm a bit confused about your point - is it just that Vitamin C is a
> drug? Or is it that some labs have poor testing procedures?
>
> It's also a bit confusing because a lot of people who take iron
> supplements will take it with Vitamin C to enhance absorption, and
> will also see their ferritin levels going up over time - so maybe it's
> not all a waste of time. My point here is that from what you say any
> Vitamin C is going to interfere with the test results - but the tests
> results will change from a base starting point so it doesn't really
> seem to matter.
My point related to taking high dose C, whatever that means, causing the
interference. You don't even need daily value C in the ir*n supplement
to enhance absorption. (You need to take the ir*n and C together for
this to work, btw.) The problem with ir*n supplements is that ferrOUS
ir*n (Fe2+) is relatively well absorbed, where ferrIC ir*n (Fe3+) is not.
And ir*n supplements pale in comparison to absorption of heme ir*n from
red meats (maybe 40% for non-heme, v 80% for heme). C is a reducing
agent that helps to keep the ir*n in the ferrOUS form. FerrOUS ir*n
sitting around in the air *will* oxidize, perhaps slowly, but will
happen. Try taking well water and leaving in the fridge overnight.
Tastes a whole bunch better BECAUSE the ir*n oxidizes and precipitates
out as the rust in the bottom of the pitcher. (Apologies. I am a
chemist.)
At what point does the line get crossed from "any vitamin C" to an
actual interference? That is the crux, and I don't have a definitive
answer. Again, I say "high dose." My suspicion is "beyond what you
get in normal diet." That is, more than about 5 times daily value.
While I am blathering about C, let me make a couple of additional
points. I know people are promoting it over in that other thread that
I am going to politely stay away from. I remember someone posting
here about taking high dose (again, I'm sure, an arbitrary meaning)
of iodine and not at all surprisingly getting the skin willies as I
call my reaction to even iodized salt early in my hypo career. The
remedy that this person posed was high dose vitamin C. FWIW, this
is another case of C being a reducing agent and taking the iodine to
iodide which the kidneys are more adept at filtering and removing.
It begs the question of why not skip the middleman and not take
either? Has anyone heard the song "I know an old woman who swallowed
a fly"? She died, of course. ;o)
The second point relates to high dose C being found to counteract
chemotherapies in certain cancer treatments. Here is one link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7643533.stm
The question of whether taking high dose C may prevent cancer in the
first place is far from proven. There are many studies showing no
benefit.
> I would also argue that the level at which a nutrient becomes a drug
> is not an arbitrary 3-5 times the daily value (daily value is also a
> bit arbitrary in itself) but the level at which it begins to have a
> pharmocological action rather than a nutrient action - and this level
> can be a very individual response.
See the table at the bottom. I have posdeT it before. Compare the
daily value to the upper end of what was found in "ordinary" healthy
diets. That is, this table came from some of the initial work to
establish daily values, and that used "healthy" individuals and
followed their diets over a few years. (I put healthy in quotes
because people love to argue that maybe these individuals had invisible
diseases.)
I tend to agree, up to a point, that pharmacological action is a
definition of being a drug. Similarly, the poison is in the dose, to
use more colorful language. And there almost certainly is a gap
between my arbitrary 5 times daily value and toxicity (obviously
true in the case of, say, niacin, but ve very wary of vitamin A).
I accept shades of gray. A pill is a pill. It is my personal
point of view to get my vitamins from food instead. Way more fun
to say the least.
As I said initially, I can support your decision to be an A, where
I am a solid B. What I find fascinating is that it is exceedingly
common for us patients of a new diagnosis to re-evaluate what we
could have done differently to have prevented the malady in the first
place. Well, too late, but it usually leads us to look at our
diets, and take these vitamins or whatevers, and I think we tend
to overcorrect. My opinion. And if the articles above and below
are indicative, perhaps dangerous. I like the word: deleterious =
harmful in a subtle or unexpected way. I am a devil's advocate.
> In the POPADAD study "The antioxidant capsule contained alpha-
> tocopherol 200 mg, ascorbic acid 100 mg, pyridoxine hydrochloride 25
> mg, zinc sulphate 10 mg, nicotinamide 10 mg, lecithin 9.4 mg, and
> sodium selenite 0.8 mg." and this combination correlated to a worse
> outcome than doing nothing. - Seriously.... have you found an
> 'antioxidant' mixture like this available in a Vitamin outlet or
> prescribed by anyone with with a good background in alternative
> health. A study like this is ridiculous - just the dose of Selenium
> alone and it's form as selenite should tell you that.
Perhaps you missed the sentence that followed your quote:
"We selected this particular mix following advice from experts in
antioxidants, with approval of the Medicines’ Control Agency for use
as a nutritional aid in clinical studies."
Sure, you (and I) can argue that the choices seem rather bogus and
arbitrary. The values almost certainly came from studies suggesting
positive results from single nutrients. Since most of those studies
have been countered with studies that could not replicate positive
results, it seemed reasonable (to me anyway, and projecting this
onto the authors) to assess the nutrients in combination, rather
than alone. These WERE the doses proposed to be effective.
This is not the only study showing increased risk by TAKING a vitamin
supplement over not taking one. I esp remember a Danish study, I believe,
and it is in my file somewhere, that also used folic acid and B6
(pyridoxine) and 2-3 others, and not in whopping amounts either. The
idea was related to the seeming connection between high homocysteine
levels and increased coronary events. In the Danish study, the
homocysteine levels certainly fell with the supplement, yet coronary
consequences increased. The lesson in this case is that correlation
does NOT mean causation.
Btw, 0.8mg (800ug) of sodium selenite is about 350ug of selenium.
(The daily value for selenium is 70ug. Hmm, the value used was about
5 times the daily value. Gasp.) Fine. I agree that this is
approaching a toxic level (begins around 500ug), and would also
cite the study showing increased diabetic complications at doses
of even 200ug.
Like any of my ramblings have helped your confusions.... Sorry about
that.
deT's Table of Vitamins:
Vitamin USRDA/Daily Value Median Intake Range
------- ------------------- ------------- -----------
A 1000ug (5000 I.U.) 1012ug 290-7000ug
B1 1.5mg 1.65mg 0.8-2.9mg
Thiamin
B2 1.7mg 2.0mg 0.9-3.7mg
Riboflavin
Niacin 19mg 39mg 22-62mg
B6 2.0mg 2.4mg 1.2-4.5mg
Pyridoxin
B12 2.0ug 5.7ug 2.4-23ug
Cobalamin
Folic 200ug 300ug 145-560ug
Acid
C 60mg 58mg 19-170mg
Ascorbic
Acid
D 5ug (200 I.U.) 2.9ug 0.5-10ug
E 10mg (15 I.U.) 9.3mg 3.5-20mg
K 80ug - -
Biotin **30-200ug 38ug 15-70ug
Pantothenic **4-7mg 6.1mg 2.9-11mg
Acid
Elizabeth
news:gdo3rf$avn$1...@news.datemas.de...
deT,
This does make me a bit nervous. My new doc has given me several times the
USRDA of many vitamins and minerals, including selenium of 1200 mcg/day.
Should I be worried (any more than I already am?)
Elizabeth
Rod
>
> deT,
>
> This does make me a bit nervous. My new doc has given me several times the
> USRDA of many vitamins and minerals, including selenium of 1200 mcg/day.
> Should I be worried (any more than I already am?)
>
> Elizabeth
>
>
You might find this an interesting read about selenium:
<http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/evm_selenium.pdf>
From what you wrote it is not clear if you are taking 1200mcg of
selenium itself or 1200mcg of selenium-containing-supplement. I guess
the latter, so the amount of actual selenium will depend on the compound
you are taking.
Herman Family
"Elizabeth" <esni...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:X-OdncXt_emNAGLV...@earthlink.com...
to work. Beyond that it does get to be a rather potent toxin.
Now, if you would like to save a little money, pick up some brazil nuts
instead of the selenium pills. You may find them tastier. Don't go
overboard.
While it is a stretch of what deT said, taking the vitamin C in huge doses,
as well as the selenium in such huge doses could be negating the benefits of
either. It may be much more effective (and possibly hence more toxic) to
take the vitamin C on one day, and the selenium the next day. Perhaps skip
a day in between the two.
I'm not sure what sort of MD has patients take that much of so many
vitamins. They just aren't needed. To top it off, the vitamins and
minerals you get in a pill are not configured the same way as they are in
nature. Sometimes you need the variation that nature gives. Vitamin E is a
good example of that. The pills give one form, while nature gives about 6.
We needed the balance but the neutraceutical companies just gave the one.
Michael
Elizabeth
"Herman Family" <the_saw_dust_place...@frontiernet.net> wrote
in message news:EHSLk.14278$YN3....@newsfe12.iad...
I haven't actually started taking the compound that contains the excess
selenium. I'm still taking my own supply of only 200 mcg per day. I am
taking a number of other supplements, but all are within recommended limits
except for Vitamins C and A. My adrenal support formula contains 20,000 IU
of Vitamin A. Do you have any knowledge of Vitamin A? I've actually created
a spreadsheet for myself that documents the total quantities of each element
so that I keep track of my total dosing of everything per day.
Thanks,
Elizabeth
Herman Family
wrote a book encouraging huge doses of it. That lead to many cases of
vitamin A overdose, and the FDA to step in.
Michael
deT notsuH
> This does make me a bit nervous. My new doc has given me several times the
> USRDA of many vitamins and minerals, including selenium of 1200 mcg/day.
> Should I be worried (any more than I already am?)
and in your reply to a post from Michael:
> I am
> taking a number of other supplements, but all are within recommended limits
> except for Vitamins C and A. My adrenal support formula contains 20,000 IU
> of Vitamin A. Do you have any knowledge of Vitamin A?
As Rod points out, you may need to check the label on the supplement.
It may be 1200mcg of selenium COMPOUND, and only 100mcg of actual SELENIUM.
This was/is a notorious scam in supplement-land to make the amount of
nutrient SEEM higher than it actually is. It is esp famous in sales
of calcium carbonate of various stripes ("Calcium Supplement, 1000mg of
oyster shell" which only contains 400mg of actual calcium, and who knows
how much lead, but let's not go there). Similarly, is it actual vitamin
A, or is it mostly "beta-carotene-equivalent A"? The body can convert
beta-carotene, a precursor, but this path is essentially self-limiting
by the body's needs.
Certainly, 20,000IU of true vitamin A could be a bit of a worry. The
toxic threshold is around 45,000-50,000IU, and the range in my table
(snipped for brevity) goes up to about 35,000IU from "normal" diet,
whatever that means to you. Adding 20,000 to 35,000 gets one above the
toxic line. Secondly, one of the curious factoids about A is that the
liver has the ability to store incredible amounts of A, but very few
ways of disposing of it. What this means, in a sense, is that it could
be cumulative. The longer you take a high dose, the more that will end
up in the liver for later problems.
What I find interesting is that toxic effects from either of these
2 nutrients looks a whole lot like what some are trying to treat in
hypo: dry skin, hair loss, enlarged liver.....
If I had a point, it would be to caution with a question: Am I actually
deficient in nutrient X or Y or whatever? I'd do this BEFORE throwing
the kitchen sink at myself and hoping for clean dishes.
Gail
I remember someone posting
> here about taking high dose (again, I'm sure, an arbitrary meaning)
> of iodine and not at all surprisingly getting the skin willies as I
> call my reaction to even iodized salt early in my hypo career. The
> remedy that this person posed was high dose vitamin C. FWIW, this
> is another case of C being a reducing agent and taking the iodine to
> iodide which the kidneys are more adept at filtering and removing.
> It begs the question of why not skip the middleman and not take
> either?
Yep, that was me - posted a bit more about it on the Iodoral thread
just now, and I'm still taking Iodoral - no skin reactions now. That
was a very important experiment for me, it reinforced that rather than
just saying 'I can't take such and such because I get these symptoms'
it's important to go the step further and find out why and what can be
done to correct the underlying cause.
There is a question around whether to take Iodine and C on the same
day, some people say not to, some say it doesn't matter.
Has anyone heard the song "I know an old woman who swallowed
> a fly"? She died, of course. ;o)
I wonder if that was a pigging fly?
>
> The second point relates to high dose C being found to counteract
> chemotherapies in certain cancer treatments. Here is one link:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7643533.stm
> The question of whether taking high dose C may prevent cancer in the
> first place is far from proven. There are many studies showing no
> benefit.
One thing this above study did show is that Vitamin C protects the
cell mitochondria from damage, sounds like a good thing to take....
Here is a response from Abram Hoffer to this study http://www.doctoryourself.com/chemo.html
> See the table at the bottom. I have posdeT it before. Compare the
> daily value to the upper end of what was found in "ordinary" healthy
> diets. That is, this table came from some of the initial work to
> establish daily values, and that used "healthy" individuals and
> followed their diets over a few years. (I put healthy in quotes
> because people love to argue that maybe these individuals had invisible
> diseases.)
Well yes, was this the same healthy population that gave us the normal
values for a thyroid function test?
While it may show amounts that are good for people who are healthy -
it doesn't address that people who do have symptoms can benefit from
higher doses than can be found in food. I remember clearly taking my
oldest daughter to a health practitioner because of her poor health,
only to be told severely "She is undernourished!" Yes that was my
point in seeking help, I had two other "perfectly healthy" (I repeat
your quotes for the same reason) children eating the same foods, in
the same amounts as my 'undernourished' daughter.
It is also fairly common for people with Arthritis to be symptom free
when taking 12gm of Fish Oil daily where most of us don't need any
Fish Oil to be symptom free - so the RDI may work for some people and
for others it's just a myth.
> Perhaps you missed the sentence that followed your quote:
> "We selected this particular mix following advice from experts in
> antioxidants, with approval of the Medicines’ Control Agency for use
> as a nutritional aid in clinical studies."
Always be sceptical about the expert opinion - one of my rules.
> This is not the only study showing increased risk by TAKING a vitamin
> supplement over not taking one. I esp remember a Danish study, I believe,
> and it is in my file somewhere, that also used folic acid and B6
> (pyridoxine) and 2-3 others, and not in whopping amounts either. The
> idea was related to the seeming connection between high homocysteine
> levels and increased coronary events. In the Danish study, the
> homocysteine levels certainly fell with the supplement, yet coronary
> consequences increased. The lesson in this case is that correlation
> does NOT mean causation.
I think the medical profession is making the same mistake with
Cholesterol at the moment too - lowering Cholesterol is not the happy
fix everything that we are led to believe.
Gail