Disciplining Step-Child
smoo...@my-dejanews.com
My fiance's daughter is a very sweet and intelligent little girl. The only
problem is she's GROWN. They let her call adults by their first name. They
don't tell her to stay out of adult conversations. One time when me and my
fiance and his cousin were talking, she pulled up a chair. She's only five
years old.
Now I have spoken to her mother about it and I could tell she was embarrassed
about it, but only said she acts like that because she is around so many
adults. Her mom allows her to talk to her like she is her girlfriend instead
of her mother. My fiance has begun finally realized how detrimental her
behavior can be once she gets a little older. Even her teacher said
something to him about how grown she is.
That being said, my fiance and I have decided that I will be the
disciplinarian in the home since he is such a push-over with the kids. (I
have a son also, 6yr) The problem is since she isn't my kid, I will always
be the bad guy. The situation is a little touchy with her mom and I don't
want to cause any more friction. However, I will not tolerate disrepectful,
grown children. I really feel sorry for her because isn't her fault. She's
only doing what she is allowed to do. My fiance used to let her do and say
whatever she wanted because he felt that her mom was saying bad about him to
their daughter and wanted to negate that. Now he has gotten a little better
in the discipline. But if I'm not there, he reverts back to his push-over
ways. Now she will realize that she can get and do whatever as long as I am
not around. She will hate to see me coming. But soon, we will be married
and I don't know what will become of the situation then.
Has anyone here been through this?
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Lori
let sd get away with! I have been a SAHM with her and our daughter...and
when she was in my care, I couldn't let her be that way. So, she would
behave pretty well all day and then when my dh got home, all heck broke
loose. LOL. Well, as she got a little older, and then our daughter was
born and more responsibilities came along, and we saw a counselor who told
him being so lax was only going to hurt her, he got tired of her being the
boss and started disciplining her. She sure didn't like it...but it has
been so much better in our home now that dh and I are in agreement about the
rules and what behavior is acceptable. It took about 1 1/2 years to get to
that point, though!
My sd also was around mostly adults before I came along. She was only 2
when I came around but you'd have thought she was older from the way she
spoke, etc. Even still she wants to be a part of mine and dh's adult
conversations and will ask billions of questions about what we're talking
about. LOL. So, we try to do most of our adult convo when the kids aren't
around.
<smoo...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
news:7el2m7$ide$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
jan...@mailexcite.com
>
> Hi all,
>
> My fiance's daughter is a very sweet and intelligent little girl. The only
> problem is she's GROWN. They let her call adults by their first name. They
> don't tell her to stay out of adult conversations. One time when me and my
> fiance and his cousin were talking, she pulled up a chair. She's only five
> years old.
> <snip>
> Has anyone here been through this?
Actually, your SD sounds just like my BD at that age. I always
thought it was a good thing. I don't see the problem.
jane
nancy g.
> smoo...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> They let her call adults by their first name. They
>> don't tell her to stay out of adult conversations. One time when me and my
>> fiance and his cousin were talking, she pulled up a chair. She's only five
>> years old.
> Actually, your SD sounds just like my BD at that age. I always
> thought it was a good thing. I don't see the problem.
The parents generally don't, I'm sorry to say.
There's nothing wrong with *occasionally* including a child in
adult conversations. There's nothing wrong with *sometimes* inviting
a child to share their opinions on adult issues. But there's something
very wrong when the adults in a household are unable to carry on
an adult conversation without the children *expecting* to be included
as a matter of course, or when you want to have a conversation with
the adults in the household and they insist that it's fine if their
child takes part too.
Children simply don't have the required amount of life experience
to keep a proper perspective on most adult concerns, and it's annoying,
to say the least, to have to keep a constant watch on what you're saying
to a friend because anything you say might wind up being misinterpreted
or repeated by a six-year-old. Children who participate in adult
conversations are also highly likely to worry more about them than
they should, because they don't understand as much about sarcasm and
irony, and are much more literal-minded than adults.
Children shouldn't be a constant part of adult conversation any more
than they should be exposed to PG-13 or R-rated movies. Some things
are only for grown-ups. It's one of the perks of age.
nancy g.
(can you tell this is one of my trigger issues?)
jan...@mailexcite.com
>
> jan...@mailexcite.com wrote:
>
> > smoo...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> >> They let her call adults by their first name. They
> >> don't tell her to stay out of adult conversations. One time when me and my
> >> fiance and his cousin were talking, she pulled up a chair. She's only five
> >> years old.
>
> > Actually, your SD sounds just like my BD at that age. I always
> > thought it was a good thing. I don't see the problem.
>
> The parents generally don't, I'm sorry to say.
Well, it could be something that I've never seen as a problem in
my perfect little darling. Still, I'd expect to be able to
identify it with annoying things that other people's monsters
do. I can honestly say that talking with the adults is not
something I have ever resented with *anyone's* children.
Interrupting the conversation is another matter entirely. I
completely agree that sometimes the adults have to get away from
all the requests for juice, scraped knees, and complaints about
what the other children are doing. Of course, getting time away
can be a tricky thing depending on your kids, how old they are,
how many there are, etc. Sometimes we just go out. Sometimes
we send all the kids outside or upstairs.
Joining the conversation is almost always perfectly acceptable
in my crowd. In fact, I think it's strongly encouraged. If
we're discussing a subject that interests the kids, they hang
around and share their perspectives and opinions. If a kid
isn't interested in a particular topic of conversation, she
doesn't hang around. Sports, politics, movies, environmental
concerns, school, books, health issues and current events
generally get kicked around among all of us. We range in age
from 4 to 52.
The four and five year olds don't "pull up a chair" during as
many conversations as the school-age children do. They are also
the worst ones for just interrupting the conversation. OTOH, I
think I find conversation with them the most interesting. I'm
amazed at their willingness to share all their knowledge and
wisdom with anyone who bothers to ask. They absolutely
fascinate me.
>
> There's nothing wrong with *occasionally* including a child in
> adult conversations. There's nothing wrong with *sometimes* inviting
> a child to share their opinions on adult issues. But there's something
> very wrong when the adults in a household are unable to carry on
> an adult conversation without the children *expecting* to be included
> as a matter of course, or when you want to have a conversation with
> the adults in the household and they insist that it's fine if their
> child takes part too.
I think we just have opposite default positions. I see nothing
wrong with excluding the children from adult conversations
sometimes. If there is something I want to say to anyone of any
age that's not for public consumption, then I generally draw
them aside. I handle this exactly the same way with children
that I do with adults. And, again, sometimes we adults just
have to get away from all the kids. But generally if a
conversation is going on, then anyone is welcome to join in.
Children are definitely welcome as a matter of course.
Otherwise we wouldn't be talking around them.
>
> Children simply don't have the required amount of life experience
> to keep a proper perspective on most adult concerns, and it's annoying,
> to say the least, to have to keep a constant watch on what you're saying
> to a friend because anything you say might wind up being misinterpreted
> or repeated by a six-year-old. Children who participate in adult
> conversations are also highly likely to worry more about them than
> they should, because they don't understand as much about sarcasm and
> irony, and are much more literal-minded than adults.
One thing about this. I don't see any clear distinction between
"adult" and children's concerns. We are all living in the same
world. The kids see and hear what I do. They want and need to
discuss the world just as I do. I do agree, however, that the
kids' presence puts some constraints on the conversation. Some
subjects - like how much you would like to kill their fathers -
just can't come up when the kids are around. In my experience,
it's a simple thing to just wait until they wander off or to
send them out of the room for a few minutes. There's just so
much conversation about Kosovo that most kids can take before
they wander off to do something else.
Jennaii
conversation without just being a nuisance. Normally we don't allow the kids
to hang out and soak up conversation they do not need to be involved in. We
have "family time" and "adult time".
Discussions such as abortion, Waco, sexual harassment, nuclear war and Kosovo
would all fall under "adult time".
"This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" -- Bob Seger
Jennaii
smoo...@my-dejanews.com
Thanks for the replies, however, I am really wondering about my responsbility
in this. Since I am the "bad guy" with our children, how far should I go
with his kid? She listens to me very well, but since she is so grown and
doesn't understand why she can't be in adult conversations and the like; most
of the time we will spend together may/will consist of constant correction.
I want to sit her down with my fiance and explain to her what we expect. But
since she is so young, I don't know how that will go over. She is very smart
so I might be underestimating her intelligence in this matter, but want to
keep in mind that she is only a child. (Sometimes talking to her you forget
that she is only five years old. She really acts, talk and gestures like a
grown woman.)
If you could listen to the way she talks to her mother, you would understand
where she gets it from. Her mother allows her to speak to her as if she were
her girlfriend instead of her daughter who needs to be raised, not befriended.
There will be plenty of time in the future for friendship when she gets older,
but now isn't the time. IMHO. I play with my son all of the time but he knows
what to say and how to say it. He wouldn't think twice about calling an adult
"Hey Mary or What's up, John, to an adult.
I have seen so many children raised the way she is with her mom and when they
get to be teenagers, WATCH OUT!! The parents don't understand that now the
kid has no respect for them and feel they can come and go as they please
because they never had any boundaries or guidelines about what's appropriate
at what age.
How much or little should I be doing?
jan...@mailexcite.com
Okay, I think I get your question better this time.
If I've got this right, SD is a bright and precocious 5 year old
whose custodial parent encourages participation in conversation
with adults. You hate it. Your SO probably is proud of her.
I'd say that it is not your place to correct the child. She is
not yours to correct. If this is how her bioparents have
decided to raise her, you really have no right to interfere.
Confine your parenting to issues that directly relate to you.
If you object to children calling you by your first name, just
tell the child that you would like her to call you Ms.
Lastname. If you want to have conversations with other adults
without her participation, then just ask her to excuse you and
your friend while you have a private conversation.
Sitting down with SD and explaining your expectations and
preferences is a good idea. Two caveats: concentrate on
changing the child's behavior, not the child. You cannot make
her less mature, but you can explain that children have a
different place is your home than in her mother's. Confine your
corrections to areas that are directly your business. This
child will never see that she is not your peer; however, she can
understand that you do not wish her to treat you as a peer. She
will accept your edict that she is not to join in your
conversations, but she will never accept that she cannot join in
the conversations of her father and other adults.
I think you are right to hesitate to assume the role of
disciplinarian with this child. You and she have very different
styles and expectations. She will undoubtedly argue with you,
expecting discussion of all issues relating to her life. I
gather that you are more comfortable with "top down" parenting
in which the parent instructs the child and the child obeys no
matter what she thinks of the command. I believe that this will
leave you in an extremely awkward situation as a step-parent.
You absolutely need your SO to back you up in discipline. If he
hears his little angel discussing the matter and making good
points, then he will question your judgment. Your saying
"because I say so" will sound ridiculous to her and unjust to
him.
My advice would be to let your SO and his ex parent this child
as they see fit. When you have the child, enforce SO's rules.
That way you won't get stuck trying to justify your own rules.
Let Daddy be the boss. Then SD can take up any arguments she
may have with him when he gets home. That leaves him
questioning his own parenting style and his own rules, not
second guessing yours.
HTH
jane
smoo...@my-dejanews.com
> If I've got this right, SD is a bright and precocious 5 year old
> whose custodial parent encourages participation in conversation
> with adults. You hate it. Your SO probably is proud of her.
My SO thinks she is too grown also. He feels the same way I do.
> I'd say that it is not your place to correct the child. She is
> not yours to correct. If this is how her bioparents have
> decided to raise her, you really have no right to interfere.
> Confine your parenting to issues that directly relate to you.
> If you object to children calling you by your first name, just
> tell the child that you would like her to call you Ms.
> Lastname. If you want to have conversations with other adults
> without her participation, then just ask her to excuse you and
> your friend while you have a private conversation.
Thanks, she calls me Ms. now. For the first few months she called me by my
first name until I finally got through to her to call me Ms. It just all of
the other adults.
> Sitting down with SD and explaining your expectations and
> preferences is a good idea. Two caveats: concentrate on
> changing the child's behavior, not the child. You cannot make
> her less mature, but you can explain that children have a
> different place is your home than in her mother's. Confine your
> corrections to areas that are directly your business. This
> child will never see that she is not your peer; however, she can
> understand that you do not wish her to treat you as a peer. She
> will accept your edict that she is not to join in your
> conversations, but she will never accept that she cannot join in
> the conversations of her father and other adults.
>
> I think you are right to hesitate to assume the role of
> disciplinarian with this child. You and she have very different
> styles and expectations. She will undoubtedly argue with you,
> expecting discussion of all issues relating to her life. I
> gather that you are more comfortable with "top down" parenting
> in which the parent instructs the child and the child obeys no
> matter what she thinks of the command.
You're right. I listen to my son when he has an opinion, but if I believe
that another way is better, then that's what happens. But I give him that
option on insignficant stuff.
I believe that this will
> leave you in an extremely awkward situation as a step-parent.
> You absolutely need your SO to back you up in discipline. If he
> hears his little angel discussing the matter and making good
> points, then he will question your judgment. Your saying
> "because I say so" will sound ridiculous to her and unjust to
> him.
My SO knows that if we disagree on something to wait until we are alone to
discuss it. We have a united front in front of the kids. He is learning how
to be a better father and still a little rough around the edges when it comes
to reinforcing the rules he sets in his house. That's where I come in at.
> My advice would be to let your SO and his ex parent this child
> as they see fit. When you have the child, enforce SO's rules.
> That way you won't get stuck trying to justify your own rules.
> Let Daddy be the boss. Then SD can take up any arguments she
> may have with him when he gets home. That leaves him
> questioning his own parenting style and his own rules, not
> second guessing yours.
>
> HTH
Thanks, Jane
Lori
<smoo...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
news:7f05gp$gri$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
>
>
>
> > If I've got this right, SD is a bright and precocious 5 year old
> > whose custodial parent encourages participation in conversation
> > with adults. You hate it. Your SO probably is proud of her.
>
> My SO thinks she is too grown also. He feels the same way I do.
>
> > I'd say that it is not your place to correct the child. She is
> > not yours to correct. If this is how her bioparents have
> > decided to raise her, you really have no right to interfere.
>
>
>
> > Confine your parenting to issues that directly relate to you.
> > If you object to children calling you by your first name, just
> > tell the child that you would like her to call you Ms.
> > Lastname. If you want to have conversations with other adults
> > without her participation, then just ask her to excuse you and
> > your friend while you have a private conversation.
>
> Thanks, she calls me Ms. now. For the first few months she called me by
my
> first name until I finally got through to her to call me Ms. It just all
of
> the other adults.
Here is where we differ. My stepson calls me Lori. If my husband and I
were not yet married, but were serious, he would call me by my first name
then, too. But for adults who are not "family" close, children should refer
to them as Mr. or Mrs. or Miss so & so. It is respectfullness which these
days is often lacking in children, solely because their parents have
neglected to teach them respectful behavior.
Lori
Lori
<jan...@mailexcite.com> wrote in message
news:370F8AF7...@mailexcite.com...
> smoo...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > My fiance's daughter is a very sweet and intelligent little girl. The
only
They
> > don't tell her to stay out of adult conversations. One time when me and
my
> > fiance and his cousin were talking, she pulled up a chair. She's only
five
> > years old.
>
> > Has anyone here been through this?
>
> thought it was a good thing. I don't see the problem.
>
We absolutely do not permit our son to call adults by their first name, it's
disrespectful. I'm 41 year old, and I *still*, when introduced to people
older than myself, call them "Mr. so & so" or "Mrs. so & so" until they
invite me to do otherwise. I believe that children should not be on a first
name basis with adults I also agree with the original poster that children
should not be given free reign to just "draw up a chair and join a
conversation between adults". I think children should be *children*, not
little adults.
lori
Gp lenexa
>were not yet married, but were serious, he would call me by my first name
>then, too. But for adults who are not "family" close, children should refer
>to them as Mr. or Mrs. or Miss so & so. It is respectfullness which these
>days is often lacking in children, solely because their parents have
>neglected to teach them respectful behavior.
In our household, I am the only adult besides the daycare couple that my SD is
allowed to call by first names. Everyone else is Mr. or Mrs. or Miss or Uncle
or Aunt.
Geri
Lori
Gp lenexa <gple...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990413181522...@ng-fx1.aol.com...
Absolutely! The only adult that our son is allowed to refer to by her first
name alone is his respite care giver.
Lori
Yvette Campbell
title (mr, mrs, miss) and surname. Some adults appreciate this, while
others invite the kids to address them by their first name. Then, and only
then, are the kids allowed to call adults by their first names.... :>D
Yvette
Blackifezi
I have been in your shoes. All I can say is
mix love with discipline. Try never to say anything you won't follow through
on, but if you do say something stupid in the heat of the moment, don't
compound your mistake with
a punishment which is unfair or overzealous.
Talk alot with your young charge. Explain rules, explain why rules are
important, explain that punishment is not intened as revenge but as a lesson.
I used to tell my step-son stories in which the characters
(usually spacemen and monsters) faced problems and choices similar to his own.
This was a good way to discuss things which
scared him or angered him in a non- threatening way. Hope this helps
Blackifezi
TYounger
I was always raised that you called someone by whatever they
introduced themselves as - ie, if someone says, "Oh, isn't he cute...
hey little guy, what's your name, I'm Sparky" - Then I would expect my
step-son to call that person sparky. I think it's inappropriate of
*adults* to introduce themselves as something they don't want to be
called.
Tamara
> Yvette Campbell stated...
jan...@mailexcite.com
>
> I was always raised that you called someone by whatever they
> introduced themselves as - ie, if someone says, "Oh, isn't he cute...
> hey little guy, what's your name, I'm Sparky" - Then I would expect my
> step-son to call that person sparky. I think it's inappropriate of
> *adults* to introduce themselves as something they don't want to be
> called.
>
> Tamara
That's pretty much the way that I handle it, too. I have to say
that no one outside school has ever introduced herself to my
daughter as Ms. Lastname. That should actually work in
Smoochie's favor, as her SD is getting to the age where she'll
most likely encounter the more formal terms of address at
school.
Once, on a field trip, one of my daughter's classmates called me
Mrs. Herlastname. I suggested that he call me "Jane." He said
his mother wouldn't like it. We compromised with Ms. Lawrence.
It took at little negotiation, and he accidentally called me by
my daughter's last name a few more times, but it all worked out.
jane
Lori
TYounger <bo...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.117e6a167...@tabloid.internal.mindspring.com...
>
> I was always raised that you called someone by whatever they
> introduced themselves as - ie, if someone says, "Oh, isn't he cute...
> hey little guy, what's your name, I'm Sparky" - Then I would expect my
> step-son to call that person sparky. I think it's inappropriate of
> *adults* to introduce themselves as something they don't want to be
> called.
>
I think it's inappropriate, too. However, if an adult introduces
himself/herself to our son by their first name alone, we immediately tell
them that he is not allowed to call adults by their first name, he may call
them Mr./Mrs./Miss Last name, or Mr./Miss first name.
lori
TYounger
Why is it so taboo to call someone as they introduce themselves? My
mom always introduced her self as "Lyn" to *everyone* because she
didn't want to be called by her surname. I would definately think
*you* were the silly one if i introduced myself as "Tamara" and you
told your child he wasn't allowed to call me that. Of course he is,
that's how I introduced myself, that's what I expect to be called. I
don't understand the mentality that addressing people by their first
names is automatically wrong.
Tamara
Gp lenexa
>> himself/herself to our son by their first name alone, we immediately tell
>> them that he is not allowed to call adults by their first name, he may call
>> them Mr./Mrs./Miss Last name, or Mr./Miss first name.
We are kind of in that same mindset. We were both raised that way, which may
have something to do with it. (You understand, I came from a Southern family
where my dad was a colonel in the Army. We called adults sir and ma'am! My
husband is ex-Air Force.) To this day I am uncomfortable calling people like
bosses or other authority figures by their first name, especially without
invitation. I guess it is kind of a respect thing.
Geri
Lori
> > Lori stated...
> >
> > TYounger <bo...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.117e6a167...@tabloid.internal.mindspring.com...
> > >
> > > I was always raised that you called someone by whatever they
> > > introduced themselves as - ie, if someone says, "Oh, isn't he cute...
> > > hey little guy, what's your name, I'm Sparky" - Then I would expect my
> > > step-son to call that person sparky. I think it's inappropriate of
> > > *adults* to introduce themselves as something they don't want to be
> > > called.
> > >
> >
> >
> > himself/herself to our son by their first name alone, we immediately
tell
> > them that he is not allowed to call adults by their first name, he may
call
> > them Mr./Mrs./Miss Last name, or Mr./Miss first name.
>
> Why is it so taboo to call someone as they introduce themselves? My
> mom always introduced her self as "Lyn" to *everyone* because she
> didn't want to be called by her surname. I would definately think
> *you* were the silly one if i introduced myself as "Tamara" and you
> told your child he wasn't allowed to call me that. Of course he is,
> that's how I introduced myself, that's what I expect to be called. I
> don't understand the mentality that addressing people by their first
> names is automatically wrong.
>
It is because we are teaching our children to show respectfulness toward
their elders. We believe that children should not be on a first name basis
with adults who are not family, or "family" close.
Lori
jan...@mailexcite.com
> >
>
> It is because we are teaching our children to show respectfulness toward
> their elders. We believe that children should not be on a first name basis
> with adults who are not family, or "family" close.
> Lori
It seems to me that it would show more respect to accede to
their wishes.
jane
Kallynn1
>first name until I finally got through to her to call me Ms. It just all of
>the other adults.
>
Am I misunderstanding this? Your step daughter calls you Ms. Lastname?
I have 5 children and they refer to people however they introduce themselves or
however I introduce them. Close family members are referred to by Aunt, Uncle
, Etc. Close friends that we play cards with on sat nights are referred to by
their first names because that is how I introduced them. The crossing guard at
school is Ms. Trudy, because that is how she introduced herself. Their
preschool Teachers were "Mary" because that is how they were introduced to
them. They always refer to their friends parents as Mrs. and Mr. because they
are always introduced as "this is my mom" so there is nothing else to call them
except Mr. or Mrs. .
Gp lenexa
>their wishes.
Except I think that rules of the family should be respected more than the
wishes of outsiders. Here is an analogy - If we have a rule of no cookies
before dinner and a family friend wants to give my SD some cookies in the late
afternoon, as nice as that is, we still have to wait until after dinner for the
cookies.
(That is kind of simplistic, but you understand what I mean.)
Geri
Kallynn1
>mom always introduced her self as "Lyn" to *everyone* because she
>didn't want to be called by her surname. I would definately think
>*you* were the silly one if i introduced myself as "Tamara" and you
>told your child he wasn't allowed to call me that. Of course he is,
>that's how I introduced myself, that's what I expect to be called.
I agree. If my kids friends refer to me as Mrs. Lastname, that is fine. If MY
friends children called my Mrs. Lastname, I would die. How cold and impersonal
that would be to me. I only expect my children to call people Mrs. or Mr. that
I call Mrs. or Mr. I am a casual and warm person and my children are too and
if I had a new neighbor and they introduced themselves and Mr and Mrs Lastname,
I would know right off the bat that I wouldn't be becoming friends with them
anytime soon. Now is they said, Hi this is my wife Mary and I am Bob, I
could probably think that we may be having a barbecue together soon, although I
wouldn't find it weird if they introduced themselves to my children as Mr. and
Mrs. because that goes back to the rule of calling your friends parents by Mr
and Mrs. Am I making sense :o)?
Kallynn1
>their elders. We believe that children should not be on a first name basis
>with adults who are not family, or "family" close.
>Lori
I guess this goes two ways. I guess I would have my children address adults as
I would. If I wasn't close enough to them to call them by their first names, I
certainly would expect my children to address them with Mrs or Mr. But on the
other note, if my daughter brought home a new friend and she called me by my
first name, it would make me uncomfortable and I would proabably think that
they were illmannered heathens and would think twice about my sd's involvement
with them. But my impression from the original post and posts thereafter was
that this child was expected to call everyone that didn't qualify as an Aunt,
Uncle, Grandparent or child by Mrs. or Mr.? That even included her step
mother. Her last post just said that she called her by her first name for the
first couple of months but now she has her calling her Ms. That to me is odd
(just my opinion, don't mean to offend).
Kallynn1
>wishes of outsiders. Here is an analogy - If we have a rule of no cookies
>before dinner and a family friend wants to give my SD some cookies in the
>late
>afternoon, as nice as that is, we still have to wait until after dinner for
>the
>cookies.
>(That is kind of simplistic, but you understand what I mean.)
>
>Geri
Let's say I am a math tutor. I have a total of 6 children in my turoring
session at my home. All six children call me Kallynn at my request-Hello my
name is Kallynn, and yours. Well, I get another student to join my session,
and her mother brings her and I introduce myself as Kallynn, but the mom see's
from my business card or whatever that my last name is "Jones" and tells her
child, this is your math tutor Mrs. Jones. I on the spot would tell mom to
please call me Kallynn. It wouldn't matter to me what Mom's rules of respect
were. I would expect her to respect MY wishes and have her child call me what
the rest of the group called me. I wouldn't let the child call me Mrs Jones
because of their "family values" or what have you, to me that would be
disruptive and weird and make that poor child stand out like a sore thumb. But
on the other hand, if I offered your daughter "cookies" and you said, "not
before dinner" I would most definately respect your wishes and wrap those
cookies up in a nice little bag and hand them to YOU to do whatever you want
(give them to her later or trash can them). ;oD
Gp lenexa
>the rest of the group called me. I wouldn't let the child call me Mrs Jones
>because of their "family values" or what have you, to me that would be
>disruptive and weird and make that poor child stand out like a sore thumb.
I agree with you in a scenario where there is a group. My SD calls our daycare
people by their first names. (I am more the instigator of the Mr. and Mrs.,
etc., rule than my husband, actually.) In an indivicual setting, or where we
had adults over to the house though, it would be Mr. or Mrs. (We are still
working on sir and ma'am. To this day I am always impressed by people's
children who do that - though I think that tends more to Southern kids.)
Geri
jan...@mailexcite.com
Can we get some geographic or sociological perspective in here?
I've lived mainly in Boston and Southern California. None of my
nieces and nephews has ever called me "Aunt Jane," although I
used this title with my own aunts. Except for my daughter's
classmate on the field trip I mentioned before, not one of her
friends has ever addressed me as "Mrs. Lastname." The first
name custom is so deeply entrenched in my social circle that I
know many people only by their first names. Learning last names
is actually a step toward intimacy.
Once I heard a parent correct a child about the way he was
addressed. Then the problem was that the child called him "Mr.
X" instead of "Dr. X." First names are fine, but if you're
going to use a title, you'd better get it right.
jane
Anne Robotti
listening when they speak, not interrupting their conversations,
behaving when they're around... I worked at a daycare where the
kids called me "Miss Anne" and there were kids who managed to have
no respect for me anyway. One kid said, "You can't hit me, so why
don't you just leave me the hell alone?" He was five. Now I think
all the children I know call me Anne, but I know how to demand
their respect.
I think a child can sound perfectly respectful calling an adult
by their first name, because I don't think that what they call you
has anything to do with how they feel about you.
Anne
jan...@mailexcite.com wrote:
>
> Lori wrote:
> > >
> >
> > It is because we are teaching our children to show respectfulness toward
> > their elders. We believe that children should not be on a first name basis
> > with adults who are not family, or "family" close.
> > Lori
>
> It seems to me that it would show more respect to accede to
> their wishes.
>
> jane
Lori
<jan...@mailexcite.com> wrote in message
news:37151929...@mailexcite.com...
> Lori wrote:
> > >
> >
> > It is because we are teaching our children to show respectfulness toward
> > their elders. We believe that children should not be on a first name
basis
> > with adults who are not family, or "family" close.
> > Lori
>
> It seems to me that it would show more respect to accede to
> their wishes.
>
No, it shows more respect to be obedient to what they are being taught by
their "parents", and other adults should also be respectful of that, rather
than feel they've a right to undermine the authority of the parents by
telling the child that he/she can call them by their first name even though
the child's parents have said "no".
Lori
Lori
Kallynn1 <kall...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990414193438...@ng102.aol.com...
what
> the rest of the group called me. I wouldn't let the child call me Mrs
Jones
> because of their "family values" or what have you, to me that would be
> disruptive and weird and make that poor child stand out like a sore thumb.
> on the other hand, if I offered your daughter "cookies" and you said, "not
> before dinner" I would most definately respect your wishes and wrap those
> cookies up in a nice little bag and hand them to YOU to do whatever you
want
> (give them to her later or trash can them). ;oD
And were I that child's Mother, that child would not be permitted to remain
part of your tutoring group. I absolutely expect my child's teachers to
respect what we are teaching him. When he was in a pre-primary impaired
classroom, the kids referred to the teacher by her last name only. We want
our child to call people by their titles, and said so, and she respected
that, as she should have.
lori
jan...@mailexcite.com
>
> <jan...@mailexcite.com> wrote in message
> news:37151929...@mailexcite.com...
> > Lori wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> > > It is because we are teaching our children to show respectfulness toward
> > > their elders. We believe that children should not be on a first name
> basis
> > > with adults who are not family, or "family" close.
> > > Lori
> >
> > It seems to me that it would show more respect to accede to
> > their wishes.
> >
>
> No, it shows more respect to be obedient to what they are being taught by
> their "parents",
It shows more respect to whom?
jane
Lori
<jan...@mailexcite.com> wrote in message
news:371542FA...@mailexcite.com...
To their *parents*, who should be their highest authority, second to God.
lori
Lori
> >And were I that child's Mother, that child would not be permitted to
remain
> >part of your tutoring group. I absolutely expect my child's teachers to
> >respect what we are teaching him. When he was in a pre-primary impaired
> >classroom, the kids referred to the teacher by her last name only. We
want
> >our child to call people by their titles, and said so, and she respected
> >that, as she should have.
> >lori
> >
you. I
> would find your child most annoying if he were a part of any group that I
had
> because there is something called social manners. I personally think it
is
> disrespectful to treat people how they don't want to be treated and call
them
> what they don't want to be called just for personal satisfaction. What
purpose
> would it serve to have a child call an authority figure by something
other
> than what they wanted to be called.
How about the purpose of having the child learn that his/her parents are a
higher authority to him/her than is any teacher or other adult?
What if I felt that my children shouldn't
> have to address any adults whatsoever by their last names? Should the
entire
> elementary school drop at my feet and extend the offer of my children
calling
> them by their first names because it was something that I thought was
proper.
Of course not. But you would be within your rights to withdraw your
children from that environment, if that was truly what you believed. They
are *your* children, they are *not* the school's children, the teacher's
children, or the state's children. *Nobody* has anything even approaching a
right to deliberately undermine the authority of a child's parents by
telling them that they do not have to obey their parents teaching.
> No because it isn't socially acceptable. I would never expect my child to
> embarass themself if they were in an enviornment that permitted first
names and
> then insist that they call them by their last names to seperate them from
the
> rest and make them stand out negatively.
It does not make them stand out negatively. It does, i will agree, make
them stand out, but in a positive way.
Lori
jan...@mailexcite.com
>
> Kallynn1 <kall...@aol.com> wrote
> What if I felt that my children shouldn't
> > have to address any adults whatsoever by their last names? Should the
> entire
> > elementary school drop at my feet and extend the offer of my children
> calling
> > them by their first names because it was something that I thought was
> proper.
>
> Of course not. But you would be within your rights to withdraw your
> children from that environment, if that was truly what you believed. They
> are *your* children, they are *not* the school's children, the teacher's
> children, or the state's children. *Nobody* has anything even approaching a
> right to deliberately undermine the authority of a child's parents by
> telling them that they do not have to obey their parents teaching.
All right, I'm getting a little lost.
IME, the forms of address between students and teachers is
generally a matter of school policy. Sometimes everyone goes by
first names. Other times titles are used. I believe that it is
fairly common in K-12 to require students to address teachers by
titles, but not the reverse; students are called either by their
first names or by their last names. I saw a movie the other day
in which the teacher instructed a new student to call him by his
first name. I don't know how typical that is, but it certainly
happens.
I think it's dangerous to tell your children to disregard their
social superiors' wishes. Unless you're willing to go to court
or to home school, you're putting your kid in an extremely
awkward situation if you insist they follow your rules in a
situation where other rules apply. Schools have the right to
set guidelines for dress and behavior for all students. I think
you've got to pick your battles carefully in this area.
jane
Gp lenexa
I would add as a side note (also because Jane mentioned geographics in anothe
post on this topic) - the neighbors and the neighbors' children in my
grandmother's neighborhood in Louisiana called her, "Miss Sadie" until she
died.
Geri
Jennaii
parents AREN'T my friends.) My SO's daughter called me "Miss Jen" for the
longest time because Biomom and SO thought is was more respectful, (I found it
uncomfortable and silly but what EVER I *sure* wasnt gonna start our first STEP
problem over THAT). Then when daughter realized all the neighbor kids, 6
neices and 3 nephews call me Jen or Aunt Jen she just started calling me
"Aunt Jen". Thats fine too. Lots better than "MISS Jen".
"This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" -- Bob Seger
Jennaii
Kallynn1
>part of your tutoring group. I absolutely expect my child's teachers to
>respect what we are teaching him. When he was in a pre-primary impaired
>classroom, the kids referred to the teacher by her last name only. We want
>our child to call people by their titles, and said so, and she respected
>that, as she should have.
>lori
>
Well Ms Lori, I do have to say that I completely outright disagree with you. I
would find your child most annoying if he were a part of any group that I had
because there is something called social manners. I personally think it is
disrespectful to treat people how they don't want to be treated and call them
what they don't want to be called just for personal satisfaction. What purpose
would it serve to have a child call an authority figure by something other
have to address any adults whatsoever by their last names? Should the entire
elementary school drop at my feet and extend the offer of my children calling
them by their first names because it was something that I thought was proper.
Anne Robotti
>
> >And were I that child's Mother, that child would not be permitted to remain
> >part of your tutoring group. I absolutely expect my child's teachers to
> >respect what we are teaching him.
I think it's somewhat controlling to insist that no matter what the
situation your child do what is done in your household. There are
always different rules for different places, and I think getting
hyped over this is kind of sweating the small stuff. If the tutoring
group was playing with matches or something, then okay.
I think it's important for kids to know the difference between
which behaviors are respectful of other people and which aren't, I
guess my disagreement is with the idea that you can't be respectful
of an adult unless you're calling them Ms. XYZ.
The rule in our house is evolving into, "We call adults
Ms. or Mr. until they tell us what they want to be called." That
seems to fit all situations. I only have one friend who wants to
be called Ms. Firstname, and I really think it sounds pretty stuffy
and stupid, although of course we respect her wishes.
Anne
Sian Lee Reid
> Can we get some geographic or sociological perspective in here?
I can make my guess [grin], but it may not be any more educated that
anyone else's, because this isn't really my area.
>
> I've lived mainly in Boston and Southern California. None of my
> nieces and nephews has ever called me "Aunt Jane," although I
> used this title with my own aunts. Except for my daughter's
> classmate on the field trip I mentioned before, not one of her
> friends has ever addressed me as "Mrs. Lastname." The first
> name custom is so deeply entrenched in my social circle that I
> know many people only by their first names. Learning last names
> is actually a step toward intimacy.
I think that a lot of the current generation of (mostly) baby boomer
parents resists being addressed as Ms or Mrs Lastname because it was
drilled into us as children that that is what you called grownups. You
know... those impossibly distant old people you were never going to
become. Hearing myself called Ms Whatever makes me feel old. Really,
when did I become old enough for strangers to call me Ma'am (rather than
Miss, I guess)? I think that on one level, the children of the sixties
and seventies still want to resist the acknowledgment that they have
become the establishment...
>
Sian
Kallynn1
What purpose would it serve to have a child call an authority figure by
something
>other
>> than what they wanted to be called.
>How about the purpose of having the child learn that his/her parents are a
>higher authority to him/her than is any teacher or other adult?
But you stated that your sd called you by your first name for the first couple
months and you didn't like it so now you have her calling you Ms. That is what
I don't understand. Mr. Mrs. Miss etc. are formal. Home isn't a formal
enviornment and how can calling you Mrs and calling other people Mrs. teach her
that you and her father have higher authority than any other teacher or other
adult? I really and truly don't understand where your coming from.
Kallynn1
>social superiors' wishes. Unless you're willing to go to court
>or to home school, you're putting your kid in an extremely
>awkward situation if you insist they follow your rules in a
>situation where other rules apply. Schools have the right to
>set guidelines for dress and behavior for all students. I think
>you've got to pick your battles carefully in this area.
>
>jane
>
Christopher
I agree with you whole heartedly that if I introduce myself to a child as
Christopher I expect him to call me Christopher. Some of these others are just
control freaks. "Mr. Grove" is my father frankly. hehe
I do agree that if you introduce your children to an older person.... I mean
OLDER... that they may prefer Mr. Soandso rather than their first name. But if
they turn around and say to your child, "Well you can just call me Johnny" Then
I'm not going to tell my child not to call Old Mr. Kodger, Johnny. That would be
very presumptuous of me.
The only exception to this is if I thought that Old Mr. Kodger was someone that
my child should be very wary of and not associate with unless I was there as
well. Then Old Mr. Kodger might get the subliminal message that he'd better not
get toooooo aquainted with my child.
Just thought you should know that you're not nuts. ;-)
Christopher
TYounger wrote:
> > Lori stated...
> >
> > TYounger <bo...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.117e6a167...@tabloid.internal.mindspring.com...
> > >
> > > I was always raised that you called someone by whatever they
> > > introduced themselves as - ie, if someone says, "Oh, isn't he cute...
> > > hey little guy, what's your name, I'm Sparky" - Then I would expect my
> > > step-son to call that person sparky. I think it's inappropriate of
> > > *adults* to introduce themselves as something they don't want to be
> > > called.
> > >
> >
> >
> > I think it's inappropriate, too. However, if an adult introduces
> > himself/herself to our son by their first name alone, we immediately tell
> > them that he is not allowed to call adults by their first name, he may call
> > them Mr./Mrs./Miss Last name, or Mr./Miss first name.
> > lori
>
> Why is it so taboo to call someone as they introduce themselves? My
> mom always introduced her self as "Lyn" to *everyone* because she
> didn't want to be called by her surname. I would definately think
> *you* were the silly one if i introduced myself as "Tamara" and you
> told your child he wasn't allowed to call me that. Of course he is,
> that's how I introduced myself, that's what I expect to be called. I
> don't understand the mentality that addressing people by their first
> names is automatically wrong.
>
> Tamara
TYounger
> The rule in our house is evolving into, "We call adults
> Ms. or Mr. until they tell us what they want to be called." That
> seems to fit all situations. I only have one friend who wants to
> be called Ms. Firstname, and I really think it sounds pretty stuffy
> and stupid, although of course we respect her wishes.
This was always the rule when I was growing up as well. Or if you
didn't know their surname, you called them ma'am or sir. However, if
someone said, "Oh honey, please call me Anne, Ms. Robotti sounds so
stuffy!" my mother always had enough class and respect to follow the
wishes of that person, and address them in a way which was comfortable
for them.
Personally, I feel uncomfortable being called by my surname, I think
it's unnecessary. If you insisted your child call me by my surname, I
would wonder why you're imposing unnecessary confusion upon the child.
Tamara
Christopher
observations appropiate to the conversation then who should give a damn? It is
the flow of the conversation that is important. If the child can't "keep up" or
things have to be explained or you end up rolling your eyes then fine, tell the
child to go play. I think that you are just plain silly and stilted in your
comments.
Christopher
Lori wrote:
> <jan...@mailexcite.com> wrote in message
> news:370F8AF7...@mailexcite.com...
> > smoo...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > My fiance's daughter is a very sweet and intelligent little girl. The
> only
> > > problem is she's GROWN. They let her call adults by their first name.
> They
> > > don't tell her to stay out of adult conversations. One time when me and
> my
> > > fiance and his cousin were talking, she pulled up a chair. She's only
> five
> > > years old.
> >
> > > <snip>
> > > Has anyone here been through this?
> >
> > Actually, your SD sounds just like my BD at that age. I always
> > thought it was a good thing. I don't see the problem.
> >
>
> We absolutely do not permit our son to call adults by their first name, it's
> disrespectful. I'm 41 year old, and I *still*, when introduced to people
> older than myself, call them "Mr. so & so" or "Mrs. so & so" until they
> invite me to do otherwise. I believe that children should not be on a first
> name basis with adults I also agree with the original poster that children
> should not be given free reign to just "draw up a chair and join a
> conversation between adults". I think children should be *children*, not
> little adults.
> lori
Gp lenexa
>and seventies still want to resist the acknowledgment that they have
>become the establishment...
Nah - even in my younger days I was one of those establishments people too.
:-)
But since I have been married with a child I have found I have turned into my
mother on Sunday mornings. I have to be the first one up and get dressed,
etc., so that I can get the other two up, dressed, breakfasted and herd them
out the door in time for Sunday School. (It used to ANNOY me that my mom was
always fussing at us to get ready and hurry up!)
Geri
Gp lenexa
>and
>observations appropiate to the conversation then who should give a damn? It
>is
>the flow of the conversation that is important. If the child can't "keep up"
>or
>things have to be explained or you end up rolling your eyes then fine, tell
>the
>child to go play. I think that you are just plain silly and stilted in your
>comments.
Sorry, but as an adult, when I am conversing with another adult, I find it very
annoying to be interrupted by a child who is allowed to butt into the
conversation. (We are teaching my SD that we don't interrupt when grownups are
talking unless there is an emergency.) I agree with Lori's thoughts on the
subject.
I think this is just an individual family preference thing. There are some
posters on this group that have much more liberal family rules, etc., than we
have. Does that make them wrong? No. Does that make ours wrong? No. What
works for each family is what that family should do.
I think it is inappropriate to tell another poster on this group that their
family rules are silly or stilted. We also have to raise our children to
behave correctly in the social situations they will be placed in.
(When I was growing up, because my dad was pretty active politically, I got to
go to some things none of the other kids I knew did - I even got off school for
them sometimes - like receptions for a couple of Presidents of the US, for
example. We HAD to know how to have the correct manners.
When I was a teenager I babysat for our state's Secretary of State, so I got to
meet all sorts of people. When I was a young adult I went with my parents to
their political social events sometimes. I was and am very thankful as a young
child my parents raised me with such "stilted" manners, because now I am
confortable in almost any social situation you place me in.)
Geri
Lori
<jan...@mailexcite.com> wrote in message
news:371562AF...@mailexcite.com...
> > > have to address any adults whatsoever by their last names? Should the
> > entire
> > > elementary school drop at my feet and extend the offer of my children
> > calling
> > > them by their first names because it was something that I thought was
> > proper.
> >
> > children from that environment, if that was truly what you believed.
They
> > are *your* children, they are *not* the school's children, the teacher's
> > children, or the state's children. *Nobody* has anything even
approaching a
> > right to deliberately undermine the authority of a child's parents by
> > telling them that they do not have to obey their parents teaching.
>
> All right, I'm getting a little lost.
>
> IME, the forms of address between students and teachers is
> generally a matter of school policy. Sometimes everyone goes by
> first names. Other times titles are used. I believe that it is
> fairly common in K-12 to require students to address teachers by
> titles, but not the reverse; students are called either by their
> first names or by their last names. I saw a movie the other day
> in which the teacher instructed a new student to call him by his
> first name. I don't know how typical that is, but it certainly
> happens.
>
We'll just have to agree to disagree here. I believe that parents have the
absolute right to set the boundaries that their children are to be required
to stay within, and that *nobody*, not a teacher, a government, *nobody* has
the right to undermine that.
Lori
Christopher
Are we talking about having a conversation that may include a child or are we
talking about interupting? It sounds as though YOU are talking about interrupting
and there I would have to agree with you. But I'd also nip it in the bud if you
were interupting my conversation with another adult or a child for that matter.
It seems to me that the discussion was about having a conversation with adults that
either included or didn't include a child. "I" think that if you make a blanket
statement that you do not include children in a conversation with adults then you
are stilted and silly. It sounds, however, that your upbringing wasn't as stilted
and silly as that.
Christopher
RBrancher2
<justa...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>I believe that parents have the
>absolute right to set the boundaries that their children are to be required
>to stay within, and that *nobody*, not a teacher, a government, *nobody* has
>the right to undermine that.
Hmmm, maybe I'm reading this wrong, but are you saying that if parents have
boundaries that are far *outside* of what a teacher or a government or someone
else has set, then it's okay for that child to use their parents' boundaries
rather
than the 'smaller' ones? I know that you're talking about setting more
'restrictive'
boundaries rather than more 'liberal' ones, but if you believe the first, then
you
also must support the second, right?
Tracey
Lori
Well, that could be because you've got me mixed up with another poster. I
do not have a step-daughter, I have a two year old step-son. One of the
other posters said her SD had called her "Ms. whatever". My step-son calls
me "Lori", and has ever since he started talking well enough to say it.
Lori
Lori
Deborah M Riel <dr...@galois.WPI.EDU> wrote in message
news:7f4okp$dvb$1...@galois.WPI.EDU...
>
>
> In article <371562AF...@mailexcite.com>, <jan...@mailexcite.com>
wrote:
> >
> >All right, I'm getting a little lost.
> >
>
> disrespectful first name, and I never, ever feel that someone,
> regardless of their age, is being disrespectful towards me by calling
> me by *my name*! It's my name! It's not a curse, or a swear, and it
> doesn't make me any better or any worse than anyone else to be called
> by it. And it also doesn't make me any better than anyone else to be
> called by some artificial title. My name is not Mrs., or Ms.--it's
> Deb, Debbie or Deborah and I'd rather be called that by anyone,
> including children, adults, peers, friends, co-workers, bosses, and
> yes, even my own son calls me that (among other affectionate
> nicknames). I think that when people address each other by name it
> removes those some of those artificial rank and class boundaries and
> allows us to be equally human.
But you see, some people, myself included, believe there *should* be
boundaries between adult and child.
Lori
Lori
Christopher <cgr...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:3715EFD0...@mediaone.net...
> Hi Tamara;
>
> I agree with you whole heartedly that if I introduce myself to a child as
> Christopher I expect him to call me Christopher. Some of these others are
just
> control freaks. "Mr. Grove" is my father frankly. hehe
>
> I do agree that if you introduce your children to an older person.... I
mean
> OLDER... that they may prefer Mr. Soandso rather than their first name.
But if
> they turn around and say to your child, "Well you can just call me Johnny"
Then
> I'm not going to tell my child not to call Old Mr. Kodger, Johnny. That
would be
> very presumptuous of me.
No, what would be presumptuous would be for Old Mr. Kodger to tell your
child he could call him Johnny, even though he *knows* you want your child
to refer to adults using Mr./Mrs./ Ms./Miss whatever the last name is.
Lori
jan...@mailexcite.com
>
>
> But you see, some people, myself included, believe there *should* be
> boundaries between adult and child.
> Lori
Why is that?
I'm not being argumentative. I really don't understand.
jane
smoo...@my-dejanews.com
Okay, first let me explain myself a little more clearly.
My SD is grown. When I say grown, I mean in her little mind, she is an
adult. She believes she is supposed to converse with adults when they come
over on an adult level. For example, if there are three other children over
in one room and adults in another, she will not play with the kids to be in
with the adults. We have to constantly tell her to go with the kids. It's
not only sad that she acts like that, it is also embarrassing when we have
people looking at us like we have a disrespectful, grown little girl. Our
rules are silly by any means.
The only reason I made her call me MS. Nickname is to show her (using myself)
that adults are not your age and deserve to be address with respect. I don't
believe that children should be that casual with adults that are not in their
family. She respects me more than her own parents. The way she talks to
them, she would never try with me because she understands what I expect. She
loves me and we get along just fine. One thing I think adults forget is that
children WANT discipline. They need to know how far they can go. I told her
once we get married, she can call me by my nickname again. However, just
because she calls me Ms. doesn't mean our relationship is "formal" or cold.
It's just a matter of teaching her what's appropriate in my soon-to-be home.
Her father feels the same way. He used to let her do whatever and say
whatever she wanted because he felt that her mom was saying bad things about
him to her. But once he started to realize that it will do her more harm
than good that way, he has gotten a lot better. He still has a little ways
to go in the discipline area, but I'm just giving credit where it is due.
My original issue was ALWAYS being the "bad guy" with the kids (1 son, 1
stepdaughter). She is not my kid but I look at her as if she was. I always
have her best interest at heart, but I know her mother doesn't when it comes
down to a lot of things. She doesn't want us to grow together as a family.
I told her mom how things are and will be once we are married and living
together. There will be no separation in rules, activites, etc. in my home.
But my SO and I know she is actively trying to turn her child against me to
cause us problems. Only we know what she is up to and are united in our
child-raising.
Hope that helps clear up my position, and if anyone is a SP and the
rule-enforcer, please let me know how that is working for you.
Thanks,
Smoochie
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
smoo...@my-dejanews.com
Lori
<jan...@mailexcite.com> wrote in message
news:3716AC20...@mailexcite.com...
Because it is our responsibility not to walk with children and be their
equals, their friends, rather it is our responsibility to *lead* them.
Lori
TYounger
> > In article <PlxR2.711$GQ2....@news20.ispnews.com>,
> > Lori <justa...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >But you see, some people, myself included, believe there *should* be
> > >boundaries between adult and child.
> > >Lori
> > >
> > first name is a disrespectful thing to do. Disrespectful implies
> > contemptuous to me, and I don't think that anyone calling me by my
> > name is displaying contempt for me or my status as an adult.
> >
>
>
> But it is, because it puts the child on the same level as the adult, which
> he/she is not, or should not be.
> lori
What exactly are you calling a "level"? I don't think I'm superior to
my SS, but I do think that my responsibilities, life, and priorities
differ from his. That doesn't make me on a different level than he
is. I also never understood why people have to talk to kids "at their
level" - which usually indicates talking down to someone.
Tamara
Lori
TYounger
> > >
> > >
> > > But you see, some people, myself included, believe there *should* be
> > > boundaries between adult and child.
> > > Lori
> >
> >
> > I'm not being argumentative. I really don't understand.
> >
>
>
> Because it is our responsibility not to walk with children and be their
> equals, their friends, rather it is our responsibility to *lead* them.
> Lori
I would hate my role in life if I wasn't Tristan's friend. I would
hate it if someone proclaimed him not to be equal, or that one or the
other was superior. I would also, as a child or an adult, not have
respect for someone who thinks they are superior to me, or who
designates that I am on a different "level" than they are.
Yes, parents should be parents, they should be responsible, they
should teach their kids, they should hold responsibilities. I don't
think that means you can't be friends, and you can't be their equals.
I don't even think it means you *shouldn't* be their friends or
equals.
My mother is one of my best friends. A *friend* - and she was like
that when I was a child too. And she *never* placed me as unequal to
her, and she never thought herself to be "above" me. And I respect
her more than *anyone* else.
I get up in the living room, and we blast "Wee Sing" and we march
around and do the hokey pokey, and i crawl on the floor, and we play
jungle.. and we build thing with his legos... etc. And I don't find
that in any way to be a lesser level than my boring adult life. In
fact, if there *HAD* to be "levels" - I would definately want to be on
a child's or a dog's "level" - much better than this "sophisticated"
"level" I'm supposed to be on.
Tamara
Kallynn1
>do not have a step-daughter, I have a two year old step-son. One of the
>other posters said her SD had called her "Ms. whatever".
No I don't have you mixed up. I replied for the *original* poster person who
was concerned for her sd's lack of respect for adults and he "adult
personality" She is the one who claimed that her sd to be (I don't beleive
they are married yet) refers to her as Ms. My whole point is that when you
call somebody by mr or mrs, it is usually in a formal stuffy environment. What
respect will this child gain by calling her future step mom by Ms.? I don't
get it nor do I think anybody in this NG could convice me or explain it to me
in order for me to get it. The thought of my sk's calling me Ms anything makes
my skin tighten up and it feels like a cold formal uncaring enviornment. Not
that this is what is going on in anybody else enviornment who addresses people
as mrs mr etc. It is just my opinion, something that I would be very
uncomfortable with and something that me, myself to the day I die will never
understand. I do not have disrepectful child. They call my friends by their
first names. Why? Because that is their name. They address Dr's as Dr's they
address teachers as mr or mrs or miss or ms whatever they want to be called but
the aides at school that help out are called by a first name basis. I for the
most part go by the rules of society. Yes there are certain things I wouldnt
allow my children to do, but I would never *expect* them to do something that
was abnormal for the current enviornment that they were in. Mr and Mrs are for
people who are *strangers*, people that are never intended to have long-term
relationships with. My 80 year old senior citizen neighbors have my children
calling them by their firsts names. This isn't disrespectful, they are close
and know them well, they knit mittens for them, easter candy, halloween candy,
buy them donuts for "fat tuesday". They have a relationship with them. On
the other hand the neighbors down the street that *we* don't care for nor
would we establish a relationship with are referred to as mr and mrs because we
will never get personal with them. My kids friends' parents are referred to as
mr and mrs until they become well acquainted with them. They are very well
acquainted with some of their friends parents and they call them by first
names. This is just how my household is ran. You may run your household
however you choose, but for arguments sake, let's just agree that we don't
agree on this. No big deal. And if I responded to your post by addressing the
Ms question, it was just a honest mistake I made out of confusion. That's all.
Everybody does things differently and I am not here to judge you, nor you me,
but I am allowed to voice my opinion and so that is what I did.
Lori
> >Well, that could be because you've got me mixed up with another poster.
I
> >do not have a step-daughter, I have a two year old step-son. One of the
> >other posters said her SD had called her "Ms. whatever".
>
> No I don't have you mixed up. I replied for the *original* poster person
who
> was concerned for her sd's lack of respect for adults and he "adult
> personality" She is the one who claimed that her sd to be (I don't
beleive
> they are married yet) refers to her as Ms.
My mistake then, as I believed you were responding to my posting, since it
was quoted.
My whole point is that when you
> call somebody by mr or mrs, it is usually in a formal stuffy environment.
What
> respect will this child gain by calling her future step mom by Ms.?
None. If the relationship is at a point where the father is close enough to
this woman that they are going to be married, then this woman *is* "family
close", and the children of her fiancee should call her by her first name.
I don't
> get it nor do I think anybody in this NG could convice me or explain it to
me
> in order for me to get it. The thought of my sk's calling me Ms anything
makes
> my skin tighten up and it feels like a cold formal uncaring enviornment.
And I agree with you here. I would not want my stepson to call me anything
other than "Lori". Remember the "Cosby Show", when Denise got married to
a man who had custody of his little girl? The little girl always called
Denise's parent's "Dr. & Mrs. Huxtable". That annoyed me. My brother
married a woman who had two little girls (the girls are now 15 and 18), and
the girls have *always* called my parents "Grandma & Grandpa", and have
*always* called me "Aunt Lori", and called my other brother "Uncle Bill".
We are *family*, and should refer to one another as such.
I think that would be wise.
No big deal. And if I responded to your post by addressing the
> Ms question, it was just a honest mistake I made out of confusion. That's
all.
> Everybody does things differently and I am not here to judge you, nor you
me,
> but I am allowed to voice my opinion and so that is what I did.
No problem. I am also entitled to my opinion, and allow me to point out
that not once have I called another poster in this thread names, or tried to
put them down, as have many of you done to me, mostly in private email, like
cowards.
Lori
Lori
> > Lori stated...
> >
> > Deborah M Riel <dr...@galois.WPI.EDU> wrote in message
> > news:7f7hm9$ml2$1...@galois.WPI.EDU...
> > > In article <PlxR2.711$GQ2....@news20.ispnews.com>,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >But you see, some people, myself included, believe there *should* be
> > > >boundaries between adult and child.
> > > >Lori
> > > >
> > > first name is a disrespectful thing to do. Disrespectful implies
> > > contemptuous to me, and I don't think that anyone calling me by my
> > > name is displaying contempt for me or my status as an adult.
> > >
> >
> >
> > But it is, because it puts the child on the same level as the adult,
which
> > he/she is not, or should not be.
> > lori
>
> my SS, but I do think that my responsibilities, life, and priorities
> differ from his. That doesn't make me on a different level than he
> is. I also never understood why people have to talk to kids "at their
> level" - which usually indicates talking down to someone.
>
I don't think I'm "superior" to my child, or my step-child, either.
However, i do believe the parent is of a "superior rank", for lack of a
better term. When it comes right down to it, if we differ on how something
should be (i.e. house rules, curfew, manners, attitudes, etc), then as
parents, my husband and I *will* be the ones who over-rule. That all by
it's self places us on a whole different level than the kids.
Lori
Lori
RBrancher2 <rbran...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990415121107...@ngol03.aol.com...
No, I don't. Well, wait a minute - if a teacher has more restrictive
boundaries than the parents, and the parents don't like that, then the
parents are within their rights to yank the child out of the school and
either homeschool them or place them in an environment more in line with
their thinking. When it comes to laws, Just because a parent disagrees with
a law doesn't mean that that parent's child doesn't have to abide by it.
One reason we as parents are teaching our kids that they must obey *our*
rules is that it is a beginning to learning that there will *always* be
rules by which they must abide. If they disobey our rules, they are
disciplined by us. Later, if they disobey the laws, they are disciplined by
the courts. I'd rather see my child get a spanking now for disobeying my
rules, than to see him in prison in 20 years for disobeying the rules set
out by law.
Lori
Lori
> > Lori stated...
> >
> > <jan...@mailexcite.com> wrote in message
> > news:3716AC20...@mailexcite.com...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > But you see, some people, myself included, believe there *should* be
> > > > boundaries between adult and child.
> > > > Lori
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm not being argumentative. I really don't understand.
> > >
> >
> >
> > Because it is our responsibility not to walk with children and be their
> > equals, their friends, rather it is our responsibility to *lead* them.
> > Lori
>
> I would hate my role in life if I wasn't Tristan's friend. I would
> hate it if someone proclaimed him not to be equal, or that one or the
> other was superior. I would also, as a child or an adult, not have
> respect for someone who thinks they are superior to me, or who
> designates that I am on a different "level" than they are.
>
> Yes, parents should be parents, they should be responsible, they
> think that means you can't be friends, and you can't be their equals.
> I don't even think it means you *shouldn't* be their friends or
> equals.
>
> My mother is one of my best friends. A *friend* - and she was like
> that when I was a child too. And she *never* placed me as unequal to
> her, and she never thought herself to be "above" me. And I respect
> her more than *anyone* else.
>
> I get up in the living room, and we blast "Wee Sing" and we march
> around and do the hokey pokey, and i crawl on the floor, and we play
> jungle.. and we build thing with his legos... etc. And I don't find
> that in any way to be a lesser level than my boring adult life.
And i do these things with my child, and my step-child, too. However, when
all is said and done, there is *never* a question as to who is the authority
here, the authority is held by my husband and myself. Our children know
that what we say goes, whether or not they "like" it. They also know that
we love them more than anything in the world.
lori
Gp lenexa
>all is said and done, there is *never* a question as to who is the authority
>here, the authority is held by my husband and myself. Our children know
>that what we say goes, whether or not they "like" it. They also know that
>we love them more than anything in the world.
Lori, I am with you 100%. The parents have to be the authority figures in
their child's life - for one thing it gives them security. I think in one of
your other posts you said someone has to set the rules of the house, and if it
isn't the parents, then there is trouble!!! The parents who want to be friends
and equals of their children when they are young are the ones we see on
talkshows wanting to know what to do with their out of control teenager a few
years later and wondering why they don't get any respect from their kids.
Geri
TYounger
I'm obviously missing where it is you're seeing that being responsible
for your child and being their friend and equal is mutually exclusive.
I'm sorry Geri, but Tristan, with parents who are his equals, his
friends, *and* his leaders, disciplinarians, and autorities, is a very
well adjusted little 3 year old.
You're making a blanket statement about the way parents choose to
raise their children, and you have no clue that it can work, because
you've never tried nor have you ever experienced it. Fortunately for
*my* SS - I don't see it as a chore, a burden, or anything else
negative when I go play in the snow and the dirt with him, when I
bounce around the living room and letting him ride on my back
pretending I'm a horsey, when I comfort him and he confides in me when
he's scared, when he decides I'm cool to hang around, when he wants to
help me with my "grown-up" chores. And I would *NEVER* take the
attitude that I couldn't or shouldn't do any of that because it's not
the "grown-up" thing to do. And I would *NOT* automatically assume
that my child cannot be my friend.
I do feel sorry when children don't have a good role model, when they
don't understand consequences, when they can't obey rules, and when
their parents refuse to step up to the plate and lay down some
structure.
I would feel a lot sorrier if my child would not confide in me because
I gave him/her the distinct impression throughout his/her life that I
was not allowed to be both a parent and a friend. I would be
devastated if my child thought they couldn't share their joys and
their pains with me as a friend. I would be upset with myself for
shutting my child out in that way.
Tamara
> Gp lenexa stated...
Gp lenexa
>raise their children, and you have no clue that it can work, because
>you've never tried nor have you ever experienced it.
I have seen the way we choose to raise our child work in our grandparents, our
parents, how my husband and I turned out and my sisters who have model children
- cute, truly way ahead of their age groups, with good leadership skills
emerging and well behaved too - are raising their children that way. One of my
sisters has a SIXTEEN year old that is well dressed (think J-Crew), respectful
to grown-ups, doesn't smoke, drink or do drugs and is on the honor roll - and
he is popular too! So, no - I have not raised any children myself so far, but
I have excellent role models. (My husband and I both come from intact,
well-adjusted families.)
We also use the methods in John Rosemond's books, and since he is a child
psychologist with grown children, he does have a clue that those methods work.
>Fortunately for
>*my* SS - I don't see it as a chore, a burden,
Did someone say it was?
>I don't see it as a chore, a burden, or anything else
>negative when I go play in the snow and the dirt with him, when I
>bounce around the living room and letting him ride on my back
>pretending I'm a horsey, when I comfort him and he confides in me when
>he's scared, when he decides I'm cool to hang around, when he wants to
>help me with my "grown-up" chores
We do all of that sort of thing, and enjoy it a great deal. But there is never
any doubt my SD's mind about who makes the rules around here and that they will
be enforced.
>And I would *NEVER* take the
>attitude that I couldn't or shouldn't do any of that because it's not >the
"grown-up" thing to do.
Yes, it is called playing with the child - something every parent should do.
>I do feel sorry when children don't have a good role model, when they
>don't understand consequences, when they can't obey rules, and when
>their parents refuse to step up to the plate and lay down some
>structure.
>
>I would feel a lot sorrier if my child would not confide in me because
>I gave him/her the distinct impression throughout his/her life that I
>was not allowed to be both a parent and a friend. I would be
>devastated if my child thought they couldn't share their joys and
>their pains with me as a friend. I would be upset with myself for
>shutting my child out in that way.
No one is saying a person should not be a friend to his or her child - but we
don't feel children are our equals. If they were, they would also set the
rules or maybe put you in timeout if they didn't like your behavior! (Just
kidding.) By being the "boss" in our home, my SD knows there is someone in
control of things if there is a problem. Especially at the young age of my SD
it is important that little kids have a lot of faith that we can handle their
problems for them.
Geri
Vicki Robinson
>
>I get up in the living room, and we blast "Wee Sing" and we march
>around and do the hokey pokey, and i crawl on the floor, and we play
>jungle.. and we build thing with his legos... etc. And I don't find
>that in any way to be a lesser level than my boring adult life. In
>fact, if there *HAD* to be "levels" - I would definately want to be on
>a child's or a dog's "level" - much better than this "sophisticated"
>"level" I'm supposed to be on.
I don't think this is what Lori means by "equal". I agree with you
that these are *great* activities, and that no adult lowers herself
when she does them. But I understand Lori's point, although I
disagree with the insistence on titles and last names in the face of
the adult's invitation to use first names. But I have taught my
children to open the door for adults, to give up their seats to
adults (especially older ladies), to stand aside to let them pass,
to offer to help older people with packages or reaching for the corn
flakes on the high shelf, or whatever they need. At a buffet dinner
with family, the grandparents go through first, then the parents, and
woe to the child who grabs a plate and muscles his way to the front of
the line! Grandparents get first pick of desserts or chocolates in
a box or fancy strawberries. It's that kind of respect for age, for
experience and position in life (not arbitrary socio-economic or
social position) that is demonstrated by calling people Mr. or Mrs. or
Ms. or Miss or Dr. or whatever else they wish to be called. Children
and adults are *not* equal; as you said (and I agree) we are
responsible to keep them safe and protect and teach them, and that is
a hierarchical relationship. (I expect my students to respect my
position and knowledge as their professor, too, even if they don't
think much of me outside the classroom.) There is a power imbalance
that is inherent in the adult-child relationship, and that's GOOD. It
enables us to keep them safe while they are learning to keep
themselves safe.
"Not equal" doesn't necessarily mean "superior/inferior" in a moral
sense. It's not a bad inequality. It's a necessary one. I don't
think we do our kids any favors by being their pals and their equals.
My daughters don't *want* me to be their equal, they want me to be the
responsible one who makes the rules, even when they chafe against
them. But I *do* have authority over them, and that defines the
inequality.
Vicki
--
Mediation and Alternative Dispute Resolution Resources:
http://www.rit.edu/~vjrnts/mediation/mediation.html
The alt.folklore.urban FAQ and archive can be found at
http://www.urbanlegends.com/
Gp lenexa
Vicki - you said it much better than I did!!!
Well, after buying a new outdoor lounge chair for the beach and Daffodilling at
Bath and Body Works, I am now going to go out and bask in the California sun
for a couple of hours (ruining my skin is my only vice) until time to go to
work. Have a good Friday, everyone!
Geri
jan...@mailexcite.com
>
>
> No one is saying a person should not be a friend to his or her child - but we
> don't feel children are our equals. If they were, they would also set the
> rules or maybe put you in timeout if they didn't like your behavior! (Just
> kidding.) By being the "boss" in our home, my SD knows there is someone in
> control of things if there is a problem. Especially at the young age of my SD
> it is important that little kids have a lot of faith that we can handle their
> problems for them.
>
I'm intrigued. I can't figure out how much of this thread is
semantics and how much is real disagreement. It's so obvious to
me that my child is my equal, that I can't believe this question
has even arisen.
OTOH it's just as obvious that we're not equals in EVERY way.
Some of our responsibilities and rights are different. We have
the right to demand different things of each other. I see
people's argument that the parent sets the rules, but really
that right is so limited that it almost doesn't count. Sure, I
have the right to set my daughter's bed time and allowance, but
only to the extent that I am being fair to us both. I can't
just insist that she do whatever I feel like.
I guess, I'm saying that I am definitely the queen of the
castle, but that I rule by consent of my subjects. It's not
just that the kids will argue with me if my rules are unfair;
they'll disobey me. I really can't force them to do anything
they don't want to do anymore. I can tell them not to do drugs,
for example, but if they don't believe me that it's the wrong
thing to do, then they'll do it anyway. I could set my 11 yo's
bedtime at 5:30, if I wanted to. She might even go for a day or
two. After that it just wouldn't work, because she would argue
with me, and I would know that she was right. There's just so
long that I can hold a position if I don't think it's right.
I feel the same way about etiquette. I can teach my child the
basics and insist she follow them, because they make sense. If
I lived in a society where calling elders by their first name
signified a lack of respect, then I'm sure I would teach her
that. It's my job to ensure that she knows enough not to
accidentally be rude to people. If someone invites me to
address them by her first name, and I refuse, then I have
insulted her (or at least put her in her place). I can even
imagine a situation in which I would instruct my child not to
call an adult by her first name - in order to distance her from
that person and establish a boundary. OTOH, if her friends'
parents introduce themselves as Bob and Alice, then I would
consider it extremely rude if she were to call them Mr. and Mrs.
Jones.
jane
Louise Taylor
> We are kind of in that same mindset. We were both raised that way, which may
> have something to do with it. (You understand, I came from a Southern family
> where my dad was a colonel in the Army. We called adults sir and ma'am! My
> husband is ex-Air Force.) To this day I am uncomfortable calling people like
> bosses or other authority figures by their first name, especially without
> invitation. I guess it is kind of a respect thing.
Amazingly enough, I have been silent but now I must speak.
I was raised in the Deep South by very Deep South parents. To this day, I
have a hard time calling people by their first name if they are older than
me. I drove my first boss crazy with it because I couldn't call her Barb.
I was always calling her Ms. Barb. Southerners truly believe that calling
an adult by their first name is something akin to cussing them out. It
was drilled into my head from day one that you never call an adult by
their first name. Heck, there are friends of the family that I have known
for years that I still have a hard time calling by their first names. Of
course, yes, no and thank you must also be followed by sir or ma'am.
I am not that strict with my step-sons because I wasn't here in their
littler years. I have to bite my tongue sometimes because their parents
(ie mom and dad) don't think it is so much a big deal. SO, I have learned
to let it go although I do insist they call my bosses by the correct (to
me) anyway name.
Geri, do you also have impeccable table manners? Recently, I discovered
that in the Netherlands, it is considered rude to eat with your left hand
in your lap. Here I thought my mom had taught me manners for *all*
occasions. :-)
BTW, I have known only one other person with the name Geri. She went to
7th grade with me in Florida. She was a wonderful human being and I
missed her after we moved away.
Louise
Louise Taylor
> I agree with you whole heartedly that if I introduce myself to a child as
> Christopher I expect him to call me Christopher. Some of these others are just
> control freaks. "Mr. Grove" is my father frankly. hehe
Christopher--
Just because you don't agree with someone does not make them a control
freak. We all have different views of the world and different values.
Can you not show respect for the ideas of others? Maybe it takes being
raised that way, but old habits die hard.
Why don't you try agreeing with someone without shooting down the ideas of
others?
Louise
Gp lenexa
>that in the Netherlands, it is considered rude to eat with your left hand
>in your lap. Here I thought my mom had taught me manners for *all*
>occasions. :-)
I like to think they are pretty good!! (Unless I am eating ribs.) :-)
(I have to tell you, I have my SD saying, "May I be excused, please" when she
gets up from the dinner table without prompting! Table manners don't seem to
have been much of a way of life for her until I got here.)
My parents always used to tell me to "behave like a lady" anytime I went
somewhere. I have a very hard time being rude to someone to their face to this
day!
>BTW, I have known only one other person with the name Geri. She went to
>7th grade with me in Florida.
When I was a kid I hated my name because it was odd - you could never find the
little license plates and what-have-you with my name on them. As I have gotten
older I have run into four or five Geris, so it is not as odd as I thought!
:-)
Geri
Gp lenexa
>parents introduce themselves as Bob and Alice, then I would
>consider it extremely rude if she were to call them Mr. and Mrs.
>Jones.
This has not REALLY come up yet in our family, but in that scenario I think I
would explain to Bob and Alice that in our house the kids call grownups by Mr.
and Mrs., and if Bob and Alice were my friends they would understand.
I think again it is a situation where different things work in different
families. Jane, you seem to be much more of an easy-going parent that I am for
example, but it sounds like your kids are growing up ok, so what you do works
for your family. I don't necessarily think there is a right answer to this
question.
(You know that could be because you have more than one child, and from what I
have seen of parents at the hospital, first/only child parents are much more
uptight as a general rule - the more kids you have the more you relax. I am
probably falling right into that first child category the more I get into
being a parent, and my husband is definitely already there! The other day he
was talking about having my SD microchipped. I told him she isn't a show dog!)
:-)
Geri
Geri
Lori
>
>
> >No problem. I am also entitled to my opinion, and allow me to point out
> >that not once have I called another poster in this thread names, or tried
to
> >put them down, as have many of you done to me, mostly in private email,
like
> >cowards.
> >Lori
>
you.
> If I had something to say in regards to what you have posted, I would post
it
> right here in the NG. And frankly, I can't beleive anyone here would act
> cowardly based on replies to posts I have seen. Usually when someone
emails
> you privately it is because they don't want to embarass you or they want
to
> make you feel better. And for the record, I have *never* called anyone in
this
> NG , including you, a name.
I didn't say that *you* did this at all. I was simply responding to your
reference to being entitled to an opinion, and adding in a bit to reference
one rather nasty effect of this thread. I have received email from people
in this thread calling me names, and being derogatory re: my beliefs on
child rearing, which would have been less cowardly to do publicly.
lori
Gp lenexa
>Southerners truly believe that calling
>an adult by their first name is something akin to cussing them out.
I have to tell you, when I saw Steel Magnolias, I could relate to or knew
someone like every one of those ladies! (Natchitoches, LA where it was filmed
is just up the road from Lafayette where my family is from!)
Geri
Kallynn1
Thats funny. I know 3 Geri's, one of which is a nurse:o) that I worked with.
I could never find my name on licensce plates or anything "cool" when I was
little either.
Kallynn
Kallynn1
Kallynn1
>and equals of their children when they are young are the ones we see on
>talkshows wanting to know what to do with their out of control teenager a
>few
>years later and wondering why they don't get any respect from their kids.
>
>Geri
>
up on a talk show. We ended up with a great relationship with our parents,
open and honest (we even went to college). Any problems that I had as a
teenager were eased by my mother because I had such comfort and trust with her
that I could go to her for anything. And yes, I relinquished my chairs for
adults (still do to this day for elders), I respect my elders and so do my
children. I didn't have to teach this to my children because this is our
lifestyle. This is within the norm for my child to automatically get up and
give their seat to their grandma because they have seen *me* do this as well as
my husband. It is called "learned behavior". This is just how *we* were
raised . No counseling or psychiatrists for me. I had a healthy childhood. I
had an open relationship with my parents and I now have that with my children.
So, the statement about parents who are equals with children getting a prime
seat on Jerry Springer is tooooo *broad* of a statement. Yes Me and my Husband
make ALL the rules of the house, but on the same note we listen to what our
kids have to say!!!!! Our childrens opinions always count, no matter what.
Even if my mind is made up already, I still will lend an ear for them to tell
me their feelings because they are people too!!!!!
Kallynn1
>in this thread calling me names, and being derogatory re: my beliefs on
>child rearing, which would have been less cowardly to do publicly.
>lori
Well I most certainly wouldn't call you names and cannot beleive that anyone
would. This is supposed to be a place of discussion and advice. I am sorry
that you feel you were attacked. Why I don't agree with what your saying, I
most certainly wouldn't call you names. Just for the record, I truly beleive
that whenever your 2 little ones get a bit older that things will change
somewhat. I can remember mine being little and I had this preconceived notion
of exactly how my children were going to act and how I would raise them and how
this and how that. Well as they got a little bit older, my morals and values
that I have taught them are the same, but so much has changed. There are many
different kinds of families. Many people have been raised differently. I have
taken the things that I liked and the things that I didnt like as I was being
raised and tried to make out the "perfect parenting plan." What works for one
doesnt work for others. We could argue this point until the cows come home. I
can sit and say that your children are going to end up cold and distant from
you with little knowledge of how to have a personal relationship while you can
say that mine will end up pregnant and on Jerry Springer at 15 but I guess we
will won't know til that time approaches and til then. So, for the sake of
argument, let's just agree to "disagree", respect one anothers beleifs.
Sincerely,
Kallynn
RBrancher2
<justa...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>One reason we as parents are teaching our kids that they must obey *our*
>rules is that it is a beginning to learning that there will *always* be
>rules by which they must abide.
But, Lori, that seems to be different than what you said earlier. You
specifically mentioned that if you, as parents, required your child<ren>
to call all adults by Mrs/Mr/Miss X and there was a situation that
required your child<ren> to call adults by their first name, that 'they'
shouldn't be allowed to undermine your rules.
Really, I'm not trying to be argumentative (well, okay, maybe I am <grin>),
but there are just so many different situations and cultures and rules in this
world that teaching our children that there ARE different rules for different
situations would be a good thing, IMO.
Tracey
Vicki Robinson
>
>I'm intrigued. I can't figure out how much of this thread is
>semantics and how much is real disagreement. It's so obvious to
>me that my child is my equal, that I can't believe this question
>has even arisen.
>
I've been thinking the same thing. There seems to be two
interpretations of the word "unequal." One "camp" seems to be hearing
"unequal and therefore somehow less; the way that racial inequality
used to be codified in US law with fewer rights because of some
iherent inferiority." The other camp is hearing "unequal" as in
"having authority over and therefore having power, but with no
inherent, lasting superiority or inferiority."
>OTOH it's just as obvious that we're not equals in EVERY way.
>Some of our responsibilities and rights are different. We have
>the right to demand different things of each other. I see
>people's argument that the parent sets the rules, but really
>that right is so limited that it almost doesn't count. Sure, I
I disagree. I can compel compliance if it's really important to me.
>
>I guess, I'm saying that I am definitely the queen of the
>castle, but that I rule by consent of my subjects. It's not
>just that the kids will argue with me if my rules are unfair;
>they'll disobey me. I really can't force them to do anything
>they don't want to do anymore. I can tell them not to do drugs,
>for example, but if they don't believe me that it's the wrong
>thing to do, then they'll do it anyway.
That's true, of course, but they know that they will pay a fearsome
price for doing so. I *can* compel them to do what I say, because I
control their resources. Absolutely, as small children, and with
less totality as they get older, but still; if my 15 year old wants to
go out with her friends and see a movie and get a pizza she needs
money and transportation, both of which she could, arguably, find
elsewhere, but not readily. (I doesn't help her that I'm well
acquainted with her buds' moms. I could call and say "Please don't
pick Steph up, she's in trouble." and she'd be up a creek.)
>I could set my 11 yo's
>bedtime at 5:30, if I wanted to. She might even go for a day or
>two. After that it just wouldn't work, because she would argue
>with me, and I would know that she was right. There's just so
>long that I can hold a position if I don't think it's right.
>
Of course, but that's because *we* realize that it's just plain daffy
to make a healthy normal 11 yo hit the hay at 5:30. You could compel
her to do so if it were important enough to you, but if it were, there
would probably be some reason that she could grasp and she'd at least
reluctantly see the purpose. I'm assuming that we are not donning the
mantle of the Mad Queen, and making rules and regulations just for
fun. "It's Wednesday! No pizza!"
>I feel the same way about etiquette. I can teach my child the
>basics and insist she follow them, because they make sense. If
>I lived in a society where calling elders by their first name
>signified a lack of respect, then I'm sure I would teach her
>that. It's my job to ensure that she knows enough not to
>accidentally be rude to people. If someone invites me to
>address them by her first name, and I refuse, then I have
>insulted her (or at least put her in her place). I can even
>imagine a situation in which I would instruct my child not to
>call an adult by her first name - in order to distance her from
>that person and establish a boundary. OTOH, if her friends'
>parents introduce themselves as Bob and Alice, then I would
>consider it extremely rude if she were to call them Mr. and Mrs.
>Jones.
>
I'm witchoo. Part of responsible parenthood is to co-opt a child's
cooperation in learning manners and "how we do things" by explaining
that there are rules that everyone agrees on, and it makes social
commerce run that much more smoothly when everyone knows what to
expect.
Lori
When I refer to rules they will always have to obey (beyond our rules) I
refer to *laws* which they could be punished for breaking. I know of no
*laws* which require that anyone refer to his/her elders by their first
name. I expect my child to follow the laws of this country.
The way we are raising our kids is the way many parents we know are raising
theirs, so i can see the result all around me. I see other kids the same
age as mine being taught these things, at the same time I see teens who were
taught to be this way, and they still do it, with respect, and absolutely no
distance whatsoever from their parents or any other adult in their world.
same for the college students in the social situations we place ourselves
in, and the young adults. We are a Christian family, and we *do* seperate
ourselves, as far as socializing, etc, as much as possible. Our adults, who
are in the workforce, also do the same, yet they are still successful in
business. People do not refuse to work with them or do business with them
because they are "different".
Lori
jan...@mailexcite.com
> Really, I'm not trying to be argumentative (well, okay, maybe I am <grin>),
> but there are just so many different situations and cultures and rules in this
> world that teaching our children that there ARE different rules for different
> situations would be a good thing, IMO.
This is pretty much where I've ended up in this thread, too. I
never realized that there were such extreme cultural differences
on this topic.
jane
Merrie
me much. It's another part of parenting that I am fortunate to be able to
do. I usually don't act out of anger and believe myself to be a fair minded
person and tend to discipline out of a sense of what is best for the
children. Obedience for the sake of obedience is not what I believe is best
for kids.
And we all know that kids don't have/or not have respect for other
adults based on how they address them.
Merrie
smoo...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<7f7fnt$pv7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Hi all,
>
>Okay, first let me explain myself a little more clearly.
>
>My SD is grown. When I say grown, I mean in her little mind, she is an
>adult. She believes she is supposed to converse with adults when they come
>over on an adult level. For example, if there are three other children
over
>in one room and adults in another, she will not play with the kids to be in
>with the adults. We have to constantly tell her to go with the kids. It's
>not only sad that she acts like that, it is also embarrassing when we have
>people looking at us like we have a disrespectful, grown little girl. Our
>rules are silly by any means.
>
>The only reason I made her call me MS. Nickname is to show her (using
myself)
>that adults are not your age and deserve to be address with respect. I
don't
>believe that children should be that casual with adults that are not in
their
>family. She respects me more than her own parents. The way she talks to
>them, she would never try with me because she understands what I expect.
She
>loves me and we get along just fine. One thing I think adults forget is
that
>children WANT discipline. They need to know how far they can go. I told
her
>once we get married, she can call me by my nickname again. However, just
>because she calls me Ms. doesn't mean our relationship is "formal" or cold.
>It's just a matter of teaching her what's appropriate in my soon-to-be
home.
>Her father feels the same way. He used to let her do whatever and say
>whatever she wanted because he felt that her mom was saying bad things
about
>him to her. But once he started to realize that it will do her more harm
>than good that way, he has gotten a lot better. He still has a little ways
>to go in the discipline area, but I'm just giving credit where it is due.
>
>My original issue was ALWAYS being the "bad guy" with the kids (1 son, 1
>stepdaughter). She is not my kid but I look at her as if she was. I always
>have her best interest at heart, but I know her mother doesn't when it
comes
>down to a lot of things. She doesn't want us to grow together as a family.
>I told her mom how things are and will be once we are married and living
>together. There will be no separation in rules, activites, etc. in my
home.
>But my SO and I know she is actively trying to turn her child against me to
>cause us problems. Only we know what she is up to and are united in our
>child-raising.
>
>Hope that helps clear up my position, and if anyone is a SP and the
>rule-enforcer, please let me know how that is working for you.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Smoochie
>
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Merrie
Whether kids have or do not have respect for an adult is not based on
how they have been taught to address them.
Louise Taylor
>>I was raised in the Deep South by very Deep South parents.
>>Southerners truly believe that calling
>>an adult by their first name is something akin to cussing them out.
> I have to tell you, when I saw Steel Magnolias, I could relate to or knew
> someone like every one of those ladies! (Natchitoches, LA where it was filmed
> is just up the road from Lafayette where my family is from!)
Well, with a name like Louise, you can just imagine which one all my
friends say I will turn out to be.
Weezer!!
Gp lenexa
Hee-hee - that lady was just like my grandmother!! I thought she was a hoot!
Geri
Merrie
>child he could call him Johnny, even though he *knows* you want your child
>to refer to adults using Mr./Mrs./ Ms./Miss whatever the last name is.
>Lori
>
Lori,
If it's presumptuous of Mr. Kodger to override a parent's wants,
then is it presumptuous of you to ask your SD to call you Ms. "White" while
you know her mother *wants* her to call adults by their first names?
I have to venture a guess that you are now thinking that not *all*
parents rules deserve the same priority...
And even if we take out the step-parent factor, I still have the feeling
that it would not sit well with you if Mr. Kodger's young children were to
still refer to you as Lori after you have asked them to call you Mrs.
"White". I doubt you would be comforted by knowing that this was what Mr.
Kodger's desires of them.
A precept of "respect for adults" is that children try not to *offend*
adults. If for some reason an adult is offended by the use of his surname,
I don't think it is polite to require any explanation other than the one
offered, namely: "Please call me Sam."
Merrie
>
Louise Taylor
>>Weezer!!
> Hee-hee - that lady was just like my grandmother!! I thought she was a hoot!
And on my bad days, the only difference between me and Weezer is the age.
:-)
Louise
Gp lenexa
>that it would not sit well with you if Mr. Kodger's young children were to
>still refer to you as Lori after you have asked them to call you Mrs.
>"White".
I would have the child call me whatever the parents suggested, but if the child
called me by my first name, I would think his parents didn't teach him very
good manners - I would find it annoying.
Geri
Lori
Mostly she will behave when she is just with me but if my dh or his family
members are around, she starts acting up. My dh HAS to start doing more.
Being the main rule enforcer and disciplinarian only makes my sd and I
resent each other more.
<smoo...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
news:7f7fmv$puq$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
my position, and if anyone is a SP and the
> rule-enforcer, please let me know how that is working for you.
>
> Thanks,
Lori
Merrie <mer...@svn.net> wrote in message news:371b8...@news1.svn.net...
> >No, what would be presumptuous would be for Old Mr. Kodger to tell your
> >child he could call him Johnny, even though he *knows* you want your
child
> >to refer to adults using Mr./Mrs./ Ms./Miss whatever the last name is.
> >Lori
> >
> Lori,
>
> If it's presumptuous of Mr. Kodger to override a parent's
wants,
> then is it presumptuous of you to ask your SD to call you Ms. "White"
while
> you know her mother *wants* her to call adults by their first names?
>
Once again: I do not even *have* a SD. I never claimed to have my SD call
me anything because, as I said, i do not *have* a SD. My *stepson* calls me
Lori. When he is in our custody, he *will* be made to call adults by title
and name, when he is in his Mother's custody, he'll call them what she
decides he should.
> I have to venture a guess that you are now thinking that not *all*
> parents rules deserve the same priority...
Nope! My stepson's Mother's rules are absolute - when he is under her
custody. same applies for us when we have him.
>
> And even if we take out the step-parent factor, I still have the
feeling
> that it would not sit well with you if Mr. Kodger's young children were to
> still refer to you as Lori after you have asked them to call you Mrs.
> "White". I doubt you would be comforted by knowing that this was what Mr.
> Kodger's desires of them.
> A precept of "respect for adults" is that children try not to *offend*
> adults. If for some reason an adult is offended by the use of his
surname,
> I don't think it is polite to require any explanation other than the one
> offered, namely: "Please call me Sam."
In which case, our child would call him "Mr. Sam". any adult who would
object to that to the point of being offended by our insistance is not one I
would want being able to influence our child.
Lori
Merrie
"good manners" is to not offend others. That is the whole point of
etiquette. Anyone that believes that etiquette is meant to show that
they've "been brought up well" is missing that specific aspect. Especially
if they want to use their etiquette to demonstrate to others that they have
been brought up better than others, because that would be offensive - the
very thing that etiquette is meant to avoid!
About the only time I get offended by the use/misuse of my name is when a
commercial enterprise wants to dismiss with the formalities. I dislike it
when the checker at the grocery store addresses me by my first name. I know
it's not her fault and that it is store policy. I demonstrate my protest
simply by not shopping there.
Merrie
Gp lenexa wrote in message <19990419202632...@ng-fu1.aol.com>...
>>I still have the feeling
>>that it would not sit well with you if Mr. Kodger's young children were to
>>still refer to you as Lori after you have asked them to call you Mrs.
>>"White".
>
jan...@mailexcite.com
> My *stepson* calls me
> Lori. When he is in our custody, he *will* be made to call adults by title
> and name, when he is in his Mother's custody, he'll call them what she
> decides he should.
> My stepson's Mother's rules are absolute - when he is under her
> custody. same applies for us when we have him.
>
> In which case, our child would call him "Mr. Sam". any adult who would
> object to that to the point of being offended by our insistance is not one I
> would want being able to influence our child.
I decided to stay out of this, but I can't anymore.
My problem is with leaving your kid twisting in the wind. In
the first place, under your system the kid is supposed to call
the same people by two different names - Mr. Jones with you, and
John with his mother. In the second place, what is he supposed
to do when neither of you are there? This issue comes up all
the time at school, at friends' houses, at parties, when the
kids are with family or friends. Whose rules apply?
As bizarre as it sounds to you, I'm not letting any kid call me
"Miss Jane" (or Mrs. Jane, or Mrs. Myhusbandsname, or Mrs.
Mylastname or Miss or Mrs. Anythingelse). I'm fine with "Jane"
or "Ms. Lawrence." Those are my wishes. I expect them to be
respected. If that's not acceptable to you, then I think you
are well within your rights to just keep your child away from
me. I just want you to make it clear before you drop your kid
off at my kid's birthday party. Fair enough?
jane
Lori
<jan...@mailexcite.com> wrote in message
news:371CBB06...@mailexcite.com...
> Lori wrote:
>
> > My *stepson* calls me
> > Lori. When he is in our custody, he *will* be made to call adults by
title
> > and name, when he is in his Mother's custody, he'll call them what she
> > decides he should.
>
> > My stepson's Mother's rules are absolute - when he is under her
> > custody. same applies for us when we have him.
> >
> > In which case, our child would call him "Mr. Sam". any adult who would
> > object to that to the point of being offended by our insistance is not
one I
> > would want being able to influence our child.
>
> I decided to stay out of this, but I can't anymore.
>
> My problem is with leaving your kid twisting in the wind. In
> the first place, under your system the kid is supposed to call
> the same people by two different names - Mr. Jones with you, and
> John with his mother.
Would never come up, we don't associate with the same people.
In the second place, what is he supposed
> to do when neither of you are there? This issue comes up all
> the time at school, at friends' houses, at parties, when the
> kids are with family or friends. Whose rules apply?
If the child is with us, he would follow our rules. if he is with his
Mother, he would follow hers. I will say that this is one area in which she
has the same viewpoint we do, as she says she was also raised not to call
adults by their first names when she was not an adult herself.
>
> As bizarre as it sounds to you, I'm not letting any kid call me
> "Miss Jane" (or Mrs. Jane, or Mrs. Myhusbandsname, or Mrs.
> Mylastname or Miss or Mrs. Anythingelse). I'm fine with "Jane"
> or "Ms. Lawrence."
And if our child was part of your world, he would then call you Ms.
Lawrence. I'm sorry if you misunderstood, could be my fault since I
neglected to add that (Ms.) in with the other titles. It's because,
frankly, i forget it exists, as I never used it, even when still single.
Those are my wishes. I expect them to be
> respected. If that's not acceptable to you, then I think you
> are well within your rights to just keep your child away from
> me. I just want you to make it clear before you drop your kid
> off at my kid's birthday party. Fair enough?
>
Sure - did his invite get lost in the mail? :-)
lori
Merrie
Lori,
My apologies for confusing you with another poster...
Back to the subject: I'm still having a problem with the idea that a
parent's rules about etiquette take precedence over offending other people.
Since not offending other people is all etiquette is about, this "parent
precedence" seems irrational to me. Being offensive is disrespectful, the
very opposite of what you wish to teach them.
>> I have to venture a guess that you are now thinking that not *all*
>> parents rules deserve the same priority...
>> Nope! My stepson's Mother's rules are absolute - when he is under her
>> custody. same applies for us when we have him.
While it does seem like having two different systems between households
can work - after all kids adjust to these types of things all the time -
(for example what to call their step mom seems extremely context sensitive),
but I think it's best to aim for consistancy where ever you can. I also
think it's best to teach the kids to be sensitive to other people and
situations. I think the classic example is looking people in the eye when
you speak with them. Most of us were taught to look at a person when
speaking with them. The Japanese are taught that you do not look at a
person you are speaking with, as they will think you are looking at them
because they are ugly. Clearly, following parent rules in this case would
be disrespectful, would you still want them to follow your rules?
>In which case, our child would call him "Mr. Sam". any adult who would
>object to that to the point of being offended by our insistence is not one
I
>would want being able to influence our child.
>Lori
>
I have problems applying the above statement equally with the parental
preference of children using an adult's first name. Are you saying these
parents should be wary of letting their children around you because you
would be offended by the children using your first name?
Merrie
jan...@mailexcite.com
> > respected. If that's not acceptable to you, then I think you
> > are well within your rights to just keep your child away from
> > me. I just want you to make it clear before you drop your kid
> > off at my kid's birthday party. Fair enough?
> >
>> Sure - did his invite get lost in the mail? :-)
> lori
No. Her birthday's in July. I'm thinking water park.
jane