Was I Bad? (longish)
Rose
house, so therefore your address belonged on the tag. How she'll react is an
unknown at this point, but I'm sure you'll handle it just fine. Seems to me
BPD or not, it's a power play with her. Be strong. This too will pass....it
all always does, yes?
As far as school, just check with them from time to time to make sure you
guys are listed as primary caregivers. If necessary, send them your
husband's custody papers just to be sure they understand.
Rose
SoccerStepMom wrote:
> Many of you know the background, but in a nutshell, my husband has
> custody of his 2 sons, 8 and 11. He won it from his ex, who has
> borderline personality disorder. She pays no CS. She continues to
> pretend to the world that they still live with her (the answering
> machine lists all 3 of them, etc.) and is generally difficult and
> demanding, constantly overstepping her agreements and expecting everyone
> to just be fine. Normally, my husband just goes along, because to do
> otherwise would lead to her fighting in front of the kids - and she
> plays victim better than anyone I have ever seen.
>
> OK, now today. First soccer tournament for the 8YO since he made the
> traveling team. He's been at his Mom's all week for one of her summer
> visit weeks, and this is her weekend. The kids' get uniforms and soccer
> bags arrived this week, and since Mom refused to pick them up but son
> wanted them *badly* before the day of the tournament, his Dad and I
> drove out to the soccer club, picked up his things, and dropped them off
> at her apartment. She didn't even say thanks. <shrug>
>
> Today, when we picked him up (she had a conflict and asked us to take
> him), we found that she had filled out the luggage tag on his soccer bag
> with her address and phone number. Remember, Dad has sole physical
> custody, she has visitation. And we paid for, picked up and delivered
> the bag to her apartment for her son to use. My husband's reaction:
> "her behavior is outrageous", but then a shrug.
>
> I decided this was one I could do something about. When we got home
> tonight, before she came by to get him, I took out the paper she had
> written on, found a paper from another luggage tag, and wrote on it his
> name and our address/phone number, and simply replaced the sheet she had
> made. Didn't say a thing to anyone, although my husband did notice it
> and he shook his head in bemusement. (I did ask if he minded, and he
> said no).
>
> I *know* it was passive/aggressive. But what right did she have to put
> *her* address all over stuff that I bought? Some of you may remember
> she is the one who went to the boys' school last year and changed the
> directory listing after we had submitted it to have her name and my
> husband's living at our house (i.e., John and Jane Doe). All year, I
> answered calls from school parents asking for "Jane".
>
> Anyway, I know you don't confront BPDs, and I don't know if what I did
> will constitute confrontation. But it sure did make me feel like I had
> taken a little control of the situation.
>
> Any reaction from the group? Any thoughts about what she will do?
>
> SSM
SoccerStepMom
Pat Winstanley
<soccer...@hotmail.com> writes
>Any reaction from the group? Any thoughts about what she will do?
No idea what she'll do, but a thought... why not your address on one
side of the paper and hers on the other?
--
Pat Winstanley
Andrew&Posey
As many of you know, I am not only a SM, but also the adult daughter of a
mom with BPD, and I think that all that is going to happen is that you will
start a war of the addresses... Yours is the legal one. That's the one that
belongs on the equipment. Unfortunately, I think that you do need to point
it out to her in a non-confrontational (hahaha - what's that?) way as nicely
as you can... a sort of "We're glad that you got the bags ready, but we had
to correct the tags since that's XXX's address with the school."
Posey
Vicki Robinson
>Hi SSM -
>
>As many of you know, I am not only a SM, but also the adult daughter of a
>mom with BPD, and I think that all that is going to happen is that you will
I have a clarification question here. Are we talking about bipolar disorder
(which used to be called manic-depression) or borderline personality
disorder?
The two are VERY different. Both difficult, but the ways to interact with
people with bipolar disorder are very different from the ways to interact
with someone with borderline personality.
Vicki
--
Vicki Robinson
<blink><a href="http://www.rit.edu/~vjrnts/binky.html">BINKY!</a></blink>
Visit my home page at <a href="http://www.rit.edu/~vjrnts"> Vicki's Home Page
</a> and sign my guest book. Millions have!
Pattie Schey
I'm dealing with one that is bi-polar...its about the same game of cat
and mouse. She calls here saying "is MY daughter there?" and I finally
answered that there is no one here named "my daughter" and hung up. she
immediately complained to her attorney who called me and when I
explained she said she'd deal with it and now she asks for Melissa..
I don't think what you did was wrong..you just plain get tired of being
treated like yesterday's dirty laundry and thats that.
Pattie
Robbin Spoonamore Hubbard
>Well gang. The soccer bag came back tonight with her address written
>over every line with the word "or" after it (leading to our address).
SSM, I'm just about convinced that you're a saint! That you deal with this
kind of BS day in and day out and *still* put out the good stuff that you do
here (as elsewhere, I'm sure) speaks volumes about your character. Thank God
those kids have you there to balance the scales.
Robbin
----
Robbin Spoonamore Hubbard
http://php.indiana.edu/~rmhubbar
Pat Winstanley
<soccer...@hotmail.com> writes
>Well gang. The soccer bag came back tonight with her address written
>over every line with the word "or" after it (leading to our address).
>
>as my husband prefers to pick his battles. But I have already replaced
>the tag again. Perhaps we'll have boomerang tags all season. Sheesh!
>SSM
Well just make one tag with your address on one side and hers on the
other and whichever house the child will be going to after the outing
place that as the outward facing address.
COMPROMISE!!!! ;-))
--
Pat Winstanley
Pat Winstanley
<soccer...@hotmail.com> writes
>When she starts treating us and our things with some respect, perhaps we
>can play these games to make her feel important. In the meantime, I
>don't trust her with our possessions. She has already lost 2 soccer
>balls, she "forgot" the boy's cleats today (there were two pair in the
>bag last night when she picked him up!), and 90% of the toys, clothes,
>etc. we let the boys take to her place never come back.
Appreciated...
But what on earth are sets of cleats? Studs? The nobby bits you screw
into the soles of the soccer boots to stop you landing on your backside
when the pitch is wet?
--
Pat Winstanley
Pat Winstanley
<vic...@panix.com> writes
>>As many of you know, I am not only a SM, but also the adult daughter of a
>>mom with BPD, and I think that all that is going to happen is that you will
>
>I have a clarification question here. Are we talking about bipolar disorder
>(which used to be called manic-depression) or borderline personality
>disorder?
Agreed. I have a friend who is "manic depressive" but quite definitely
NOT the sort of thing described by people talking about BPD which is
what used to be classed as Schitzophrenic (sp?)... a completely
different thing.
One has a person with equally able alter egos in the real world/society
while the other has a person with alter egos that don't/can't merge into
the real world/society.
--
Pat Winstanley
Julie
to be the "bigger person" 100% of the time in the face of what you're
dealing with. Give yourself a break! If you feel badly about it try to
come up with another way of dealing with these things in the future. I
know how frustrating these stupid little games are, and finally chose
not to participate when we were dealing with it. The problem is, people
like this will continue anyway, so there will still be some fallout. I
did feel more in control, though, in addressing and changing my
behavior.
Hang in there - I think your record is great in dealing with her. Just
keep on doing your best, and learning from those things that don't work
as well as the things that do.
Julie
> Any reaction from the group? Any thoughts about what she will do?
>
> SSM
Andrew&Posey
obviously doesn't understand what compromise is, or she would have just
written her address on the other side.
And she OBVIOUSLY is looking to play games with your over this, SSM, or she
wouldn't have LOOKED to see if you put the correct, legal address on in the
first place. You or your DH must call her on this in order to end it.
Is the tag really necessary? Or could it just be your SS's name?
Posey
Pat Winstanley wrote in message <>Well just make one tag with your address
Andrew&Posey
previously referred to medically as manic-depression.
Either way, I stand by my suggestion =)
Posey
Vicki Robinson
>I heartily disagree with Pat. This is just a control issue. The woman
>obviously doesn't understand what compromise is, or she would have just
>written her address on the other side.
>
>And she OBVIOUSLY is looking to play games with your over this, SSM, or she
>wouldn't have LOOKED to see if you put the correct, legal address on in the
>first place. You or your DH must call her on this in order to end it.
>
I wonder. If the biomom has borderline personality disorder, then
confrontation is probably a bad move, from what I understand. It's
not a question of setting boundaries, because boundaries are something
that a BPD sufferer doesn't understand very well. Am I right in
thinking also that a persistant feeling of being persecuted is part of
the syndrome?
I'm not a psychologist, nor do I play one on the net, but the tactics
for dealing with a person with a mental or emotional disorder have to
be different than the tactics used with a vindictive or angry, but
rational, person, I'd think.
I think you're right, Posey, when you say that the biomom doesn't know
what compromise is. She really and truly doesn't. Her illness
assures that she never will, either.
This must be awfully hard, SSM (and you, too, Neuminosum, since you
are dealing with the same thing). I would be at a loss about what to
do, because she's not rational and there doesn't seem to be any way
to come to an understanding with her.
For what it's worth, I agree with the poster who said that you simply
corrected misinformation on the tag. It's not a crime. Not even a
slam. Just a correction.
Vicki
--
Visit our wedding at http://www.rit.edu/~vjrnts/wedding.html and
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have a week to spare.
Wakanyeja Makah
>and mouse. She calls here saying "is MY daughter there?" and I finally
>answered that there is no one here named "my daughter" and hung up. she
>immediately complained to her attorney who called me and when I
>explained she said she'd deal with it and now she asks for Melissa..
I'm glad to hear that someone else deals with this crap. For a long time
my SS mother would include horrible nasty-grams (to me) in his bag when he
arrived signed only "His Mother" Eventually it got to the point that I
just threw them away (in front of him...and after letting him read them)
and stated that I didn't know why that she felt she had to send nasty notes
to me...but that I wasn't going to let them ruin our time together. If
anything, afterwards, it made us closer.
Hang in there,
W. Makah
Pat Winstanley
<soccer...@hotmail.com> writes
>
>PS, yesterday AM, the pitch was *very* wet from dew, and the cleats
>didn't help. There were a lot of little boys slipping on their
>backsides and all other sides. No one was hurt, and it was kind of
>funny.
<grin>
Yes, sounds like your cleats are our studs... hmmm... why do I get this
vision of hunky men being stepped on? ;-))
--
Pat Winstanley
janelaw
>
> >snip prior posts
> >
> Wow. Thanks, I needed that. I'm not at all sure how best to deal with
> this situation. Every time we talk with the boys' therapist, she gives
> us good ideas about setting boundaries (which BPDs have trouble with),
> but somehow our resolve often fades in the face of her agressive
> postures and anger.
>
> Thanks for letting me vent here. It helps, and keeps some of the
> pressure off my husband (who *is* a saint). SSM
Generally, I hate looking up the symptoms of a medical/mental
health problem, because once I do, I am always sure I have it.
Your posts made me curious, though. I hear about BPD
frequently, but I never understood what it was.
The good news is: I definitely don't have it. (For once, I
can't even think of anyone I know who has it).
The bad news is: It's sounds like hell. I found a story at
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/1996/story.htm that just
appalled me.
I had no idea that any of this existed. Since you have been
dealing with BM for years, you probably already know the
symptoms of BPD: a shaky sense of identity; sudden violent
outbursts; over sensitivity to real or imagined rejection;
brief, turbulent love affairs; frequent periods of intense
depression; eating disorders, drug abuse, and other
self-destructive tendencies; and an irrational fear of
abandonment and an inability to be alone.
I guess that anything that relates to you guys having custody
triggers all her problems with identity, rejection, and
inability to be alone. Then, if she's forced to face the fact
that she is not the custodial parent (e.g. by your address on
the luggage tag), that triggers all the violent rage,
depression, and self-destructive behavior. No wonder you're
having a hard time dealing with her!
Frankly, SSM, I don't know what the hell you should do. I
noticed a lot of people who are involved with BPD sufferers say
they feel like they are "walking on eggshells" all the time.
There seem to be email support groups out there for people in
your situation, though.
http://members.aol.com/BPDCentral/cyber_resource.html lists
some. I also found these NGs: alt.psychology.personality;
alt.support.personality; and sci.psychology.personality. Maybe
other people who deal with this can tell you what does and
doesn't work for them.
Good Luck.
Jane
BTW, I found these web sites useful:
BPD Central http://members.aol.com/BPDCentral/index.html (this
site is hawking a book but it has useful info about resources)
http://www.cmhcsys.com/guide/person.htm
http://www.medhelp.org
http://www.nami.org/helpline/borderline.htm
http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.borderline.html
http://www.toddlertime.com/article.htm (i really found this
article interesting)
SoccerStepMom
Interesting. We have gone way out of our way *not* to get the kids
involved in their mother's outrageous actions toward us. In fact, they
think she's a saint. I'm not sure we would do them any favors by
dethroning their idol, although it does make it hard to teach some of
the life lessons that we want to teach them.
How is your stepson's relationship with his biomom? It's clear you are
very open with him about your struggle, and that he has expressed an
interest to live with you. Does he also love her, or is he miserable
all the time he is with her?
SSM
TYounger
was... superglue on the tag, but then, that's the devil on my shoulder
talking.
TYounger
> Ahh, Pat, you are always so equitable. I'm sorry, I don't feel I need
> to cater to her ego in this manner. Two addresses are not needed to
> serve the purpose of the tag (to distinguish our kid's bag from the
> other 11 identical ones on the team), and if by any chance the bag is
> lost, it should properly be returned to us.
>
> When she starts treating us and our things with some respect, perhaps we
> can play these games to make her feel important. In the meantime, I
> don't trust her with our possessions. She has already lost 2 soccer
> balls, she "forgot" the boy's cleats today (there were two pair in the
> bag last night when she picked him up!), and 90% of the toys, clothes,
> etc. we let the boys take to her place never come back.
>
> SSM
>
Lisa
that rivets onto the handle?
(TYounger wrote:
>
> Now, SSM, you are a lot nicer than I am... what went through my mind
> was... superglue on the tag, but then, that's the devil on my shoulder
> talking.
>
> TYounger)
>
>
susan
>
> TYounger wrote:
> >
> > Now, SSM, you are a lot nicer than I am... what went through my mind
> > was... superglue on the tag, but then, that's the devil on my shoulder
> > talking.
> >
> > TYounger
>
> the plastic sleeve, but I decided that would be a bit extreme... I never
> thought of a thin, invisible but frustrating layer of superglue... ;-)
>
> SSM
>
> Actually, I really appreciate all the support. I *know* the right thing
> to do under the circumstances is let it drop and be the bigger person.
> and that's probably what I'll do after the next round ... But it's nice
> to have y'all to confirm I'm not nuts for being upset.
You're not nuts. You're a saint! I'd have lost it long ago. I think
you're doing the right thing. People like her get tired of their games
pretty quickly. After two or three more times of re-writing her stuff on
the tags she'll get bored with the stupidity of it. And the fact that
you aren't reacting is probably lessening her interest in doing it. No
fun in bugging someone if they don't react. What a space cadet she
is!
Wakanyeja Makah
wrote:
>Interesting. We have gone way out of our way *not* to get the kids
>involved in their mother's outrageous actions toward us. In fact, they
>think she's a saint. I'm not sure we would do them any favors by
>dethroning their idol, although it does make it hard to teach some of
>the life lessons that we want to teach them.
We also have "gone out of our way" not to run down his mother while he is
with us. Believe me, sometimes you have to bite your tounge off. However,
the difference with the nasty messages on the answering machine left by
her, the nasty letters she sends and the nasty notes left in his bag is
that SHE is the one doing it (not us). She is setting the example.
Example: I used to open his bag and help him get his things in his closet
and drawers when he first arrived (when he was 3 thru 8-y/o) and invariably
there would be some form of nasty note on the top of the bag to me. For
years (while he was little) I would become quite upset by these and it
would color the rest of our day or evening together. I would be a bit
irritable, a bit upset, just not myself. Requests by my husband for these
to stop just made them get nastier. Now that he is older, can read, and
understands better what is going on- yes...when she sends these with him I
let him *see* why I have gotten so upset in the past. The Truth. I ask
him how he would feel if someone wrote things like that to him. He answers
that he would be mad and he wouldn't like it. Then I throw the letter/note
away and give him a huge hug and tell him that it isn't going to ruin our
time together...and you know what? It doesn't any more.
>How is your stepson's relationship with his biomom? It's clear you are
>very open with him about your struggle, and that he has expressed an
>interest to live with you. Does he also love her, or is he miserable
>all the time he is with her?
Honestly (and I am not just ex-bashing), he goes into great detail about
how much he wants to live with us and how miserable he is being dragged
from state to state and school to school and house to house. In Indiana,
they won't even entertain the notion of what a child wants until the child
is age 13. We have been very honest with him about that as well. His
question "What if I just can't stand it anymore?" We have researched the
option of attempting to get custody (before 13) and it is a crap shoot (and
could drag on for years). Dragging him through a long, drawn out and
certainly bloody custody battle, at 9 years old, isn't in his best interest
either. So we all wait. The husband-person and I try to offer him as much
stability, continuity, and family *ritual* as we can (and he loves it). He
knows that no matter how much upheaval he has to endure there...when he is
here that his room is going to be the same, his friends will still be here,
his chores will be the same, his cat will be here (all three boys have
their own cat) and we will all be sitting around the dinner table holding
hands in *circle* and talking about "the best part of our day"...and that
is really all we can do for a few years. Children need continuity. They
also need honesty. It gives them a sense of empathy. Creates someone who
is human (and acknowledges that you are human also).
>SSM
W. Makah
Merrie
to have the correct address on the tag. There is only one thing that
concerns me and that is if it truely causes her to blow her fuse - and
the bag is arriving with the child - then you could be inadvertently
causing an unfortunant episode for the child to have to go through. In
any event, an irritable parent is never pleasant for the kids. You've
got the kids let her have the bag.
I also understand about belongings not coming back. The boys mother
would always keep their clothes they went with and return the boys in
really worn out pants (actually I have no way of knowing if it was her
idea or theirs - because kids sometimes like to stir things up!) Once,
for a while, I decided I would just replace them every single time and
throw out whatever rag came home. I couldn't believe it. It went on
for months!! They began wearing the most bizarre clothing: bright red
women's pants...really large men's pants - equiped with the old Harley
Davidson belt to hold them on...boxer underwear as shorts...
I eventualy gave up and let the kids own the problem, as they moved into
teen years those bright red peg legs just weren't gonna do.
Merrie
Vicki Robinson
>Once,
>for a while, I decided I would just replace them every single time and
>throw out whatever rag came home. I couldn't believe it. It went on
>for months!! They began wearing the most bizarre clothing: bright red
>women's pants...really large men's pants - equiped with the old Harley
>Davidson belt to hold them on...boxer underwear as shorts...
BWAAAAAHAHAHahahahahahahaha! Oh, Merrie, I'm sorry, it probably
wasn't funny at the time, but the pictures that come up in my mind at
your description are *hilarious*! Halloween, every Sunday night!
It's really very funny. I can just see thier... biomom (?) wracking
her brain to come up with an even more outlandish outfit.
Sometimes these things can actually be amusing if you have some
distance.
Pat Winstanley
<vjr...@canoe.xcski.com> writes
>In a previous article, Merrie <mbrin...@pon.net> said:
>
>>Once,
>>for a while, I decided I would just replace them every single time and
>>throw out whatever rag came home. I couldn't believe it. It went on
>>for months!! They began wearing the most bizarre clothing: bright red
>>women's pants...really large men's pants - equiped with the old Harley
>>Davidson belt to hold them on...boxer underwear as shorts...
>
>BWAAAAAHAHAHahahahahahahaha! Oh, Merrie, I'm sorry, it probably
>wasn't funny at the time, but the pictures that come up in my mind at
>your description are *hilarious*!
Same here... <grin>
> Halloween, every Sunday night!
>It's really very funny. I can just see thier... biomom (?) wracking
>her brain to come up with an even more outlandish outfit.
>
>Sometimes these things can actually be amusing if you have some
>distance.
>
My other thought was, what a great source of weird clothing to (rather
than throw away) donate to the local school for their "dressing up"
cupboard! ;-))
--
Pat Winstanley
ange...@my-dejanews.com
wma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:37:19 GMT, SoccerStepMom <soccer...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >Interesting. We have gone way out of our way *not* to get the kids
> >involved in their mother's outrageous actions toward us. In fact, they
> >think she's a saint. I'm not sure we would do them any favors by
> >dethroning their idol, although it does make it hard to teach some of
> >the life lessons that we want to teach them.
>
> We also have "gone out of our way" not to run down his mother while he is
> with us. Believe me, sometimes you have to bite your tounge off. However,
> the difference with the nasty messages on the answering machine left by
> her, the nasty letters she sends and the nasty notes left in his bag is
> that SHE is the one doing it (not us). She is setting the example.
>
This is something that Miles and I were discussing recently. Due to a
number of circumstances and changes in all of our lives, he and I were
trying to figure out if I should talk to the boys' dad about maybe
shifting their schedule a bit. (I recently moved to about halfway between
their dad's house and his work, before we were on the North Shore of the
city...a 20 min - 30 min drive out of his way.)
The move itself was a difficult decision for me for many reasons. The
biggest was uprooting the kids from the one city they knew and were
established in to move to a better community (more family oriented, better
schools, etc.) where we knew practically no one. I realized that in the
long run, this is far better for them.
In the meantime, they are now more physically acessible to their dad. One
of the problems I have with changing the schedule is that if their father
fails, then they have to face some realities I have been trying to shelter
them from. The other (and one of the reasons I haven't changed it for the
past couple of years) is that it really sends all the rules to heck in a hand
basket when he has extra time with them.
Miles tells me that I can't parent my s2bx...I have to let him make his own
mistakes. I feel that if I can protect my kids from seeing their dad in a
light that might appear to be negative then I'm doing them a favor. I guess
what I'm worried about is that I have spent two years trying to protect and
shelter them and cover his tracks when he falls down on the job...what happens
when they realize that. I don't want them to see their dad in that light. I
want them to think their dad is a great guy and foster that end of things.
I don't know what to do. I'm hoping that he'll be a bit more involved now
that we are physically closer (ie more able to make sports games that he was
unable to before). He keeps asking me for more time with the boys (he
currently gets them *every* weekend) but he is unwilling to let the boys
do their extracurricular activities in that time (ie karate). He won't even
take them to religious services. I'm nervous that if he has more time with
them then he won't be encouraging even the minimum of homework or practice
time (James will start an instrument this year).
MR. WIZARD.....I DON'T WANT TO BE A GROWN UP ANYMORE......
FRIZZLE FRAZZLE FRUZZLE FROME....TIME FOR THIS ONE TO COME HOME.
*sigh*
--
karla
"Money is not required to buy one necessity
of the soul." Thoreau
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some...@my-dejanews.com
ange...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In the meantime, they are now more physically acessible to their dad. One
> of the problems I have with changing the schedule is that if their father
> fails, then they have to face some realities I have been trying to shelter
> them from. The other (and one of the reasons I haven't changed it for the
> past couple of years) is that it really sends all the rules to heck in a hand
> basket when he has extra time with them.
>
> Miles tells me that I can't parent my s2bx...I have to let him make his own
> mistakes. I feel that if I can protect my kids from seeing their dad in a
> light that might appear to be negative then I'm doing them a favor. I guess
> what I'm worried about is that I have spent two years trying to protect and
> shelter them and cover his tracks when he falls down on the job...what happens
> when they realize that. I don't want them to see their dad in that light. I
> want them to think their dad is a great guy and foster that end of things.
I think Miles is correct. Just as you shouldn't bad-mouth the other parent,
you don't have to protect him or make excuses for him either. Kids do not
need this kind of protection.
I think your sons are old enough to understand the 'different rules in
different houses' idea. As for your s2bx failing - well, then, that is
his problem or between him and the boys. If he is failing, why do you
have to go out of your way to hide that from the boys? Is your ex doing
anything like that for you? Would you even want him to? I don't know
what you mean by 'failing' - would the boys be terribly harmed?
Surely your sons know you aren't perfect - why shouldn't they know the
same about their father?
My ex has a major problem getting up in the morning. It is not unusual for
him to get the children to school late. After the time that he got our son to
school at 11am(!), I went out and bought our son an alarm clock and told him
that he (our son) was responsible for looking at the time on school mornings,
he couldn't just wait for his father to get up and tell him it was time to
go. Basically, I was just telling my son HE had to be responsible too. He
can form his own opinions about his father and timeliness. My daughter has an
alarm clock too. I suppose I could solve this whole problem, and shield the
kids from their dad's lateness, by having a schedule that never has the kids
at his house on a school morning - but that just isn't right. When my
children tell me that they don't like being late to school, I tell them to
talk to their father about that. I really can't do anything about it, it is
between him and them. They really can't get to school from his house
themselves, he needs to drive them, it's too far to walk and no public
transportation is available for where they need to go.
> I don't know what to do. I'm hoping that he'll be a bit more involved now
> that we are physically closer (ie more able to make sports games that he was
> unable to before). He keeps asking me for more time with the boys (he
> currently gets them *every* weekend) but he is unwilling to let the boys
> do their extracurricular activities in that time (ie karate). He won't even
> take them to religious services. I'm nervous that if he has more time with
> them then he won't be encouraging even the minimum of homework or practice
> time (James will start an instrument this year).
Just don't let James take up a large instrument. Getting the children
back and forth is one thing. Getting my daughter's cello back and forth
is a lot more hassle. Mostly she does her practicing at my house because
the cello travels with her when she has lessons to go to but not every
time she switches houses.
When your s2bx asks for more time, does he have a specific proposal?
If you switch schedules, you might consider changing to one where you
have the kids sometimes at the time when you might take them to religious
services. One of the reason my ex and I don't have a schedule where every
week is the same is that we each want our children for Shabbat so those
alternate.
As an aside:
I'm slightly puzzled by parents here who are irked at ex's who don't
attend the child's games, especially when the children are young and
they are games that many children play, like soccer, as opposed to a
high school team. Is one parent attending not enough? My ex and I, who are on
good terms, take turns taking our son to his soccer games. (Whoever has him,
takes him but the other usually doesn't go.) Even married parents don't always
both attend these games.
As for encouraging homework - are your sons old enough to 'own' the problem
themselves? To do it without being told "time to do your homework"?
That if they don't do it at dad's it is their own fault and not his?
Do you think your s2bx would actively prevent them from doing it?
Why not give it a try - I think you'll find out soon enough if they
aren't doing their homework at his house.
> MR. WIZARD.....I DON'T WANT TO BE A GROWN UP ANYMORE......
I'll agree with that!
I once read an article years ago by a married woman writer. She talked
about how she expected to 'manage' the relationship between her husband
and daughters because that is how she grew up. And it surprised her, in a
way, that her husband didn't expect that - he wrote his own letters to
their daughters at camp and had his own relationship with the children
without going through her. That made me stop and think about my own
expectations - because mostly my mom DID manage our relationships with
her and our dad. That's just the way it was but when you THIMK about it -
why should it be? I don't typically see fathers expecting to manage
the relationship between their children and wives (or ex-wives).
Married or not, I think it's true that we (women) should try and step
back and realize that we are not doing anyone any favors by putting
ourselves in the middle of the father-child relationships. After all,
if we want the fathers to act like equal (though different) parents,
we have to let them even if they don't always do things our way.
(Easy to say, much harder to do, I know!)
susan
>
> In a previous article, Merrie <mbrin...@pon.net> said:
>
> >Once,
> >for a while, I decided I would just replace them every single time and
> >throw out whatever rag came home. I couldn't believe it. It went on
> >for months!! They began wearing the most bizarre clothing: bright red
> >women's pants...really large men's pants - equiped with the old Harley
> >Davidson belt to hold them on...boxer underwear as shorts...
>
> BWAAAAAHAHAHahahahahahahaha! Oh, Merrie, I'm sorry, it probably
> wasn't funny at the time, but the pictures that come up in my mind at
> It's really very funny. I can just see thier... biomom (?) wracking
> her brain to come up with an even more outlandish outfit.
>
> Sometimes these things can actually be amusing if you have some
> distance.
>
naked. Then whatever they come home in can be thrown out and you're not
losing your good stuff. After a few weeks of this she'll run out of
junk clothes to put them in and then maybe you can get down to the
business of sitting down and discussing a rational solution to all this.
Of ocurse, if they're over 4, then going naked would be met with major
resistance!! But it would be funny to see her reaction!
Merrie
I was amused by the outfits that came home - probably more so than the
boys - sorry to say...
Merrie
Tony
SSM wrote:
snipped>I don't trust her with our possessions. She has already lost 2
soccer
>balls, she "forgot" the boy's cleats today (there were two pair in the
>bag last night when she picked him up!), and 90% of the toys, clothes,
>etc. we let the boys take to her place never come back.
>
>SSM
things that don't come back stems from her delusions that the children live
with her. It seems like that is also the basis for her changing the name on
the tag. If she really believes that they live with her this could go on
for a while. Maybe it would be easier on everyone to just put the child's
name on it without a home address? If the bag gets left at the field, other
people on the team know who he is and where he lives don't they? Personally
myself I would want to avoid any confrontations, (especially if she is
unstable), but that is just my opinion.
susan
> of the problems I have with changing the schedule is that if their father
> fails, then they have to face some realities I have been trying to shelter
> them from. The other (and one of the reasons I haven't changed it for the
> past couple of years) is that it really sends all the rules to heck in a hand
> basket when he has extra time with them.
>
> Miles tells me that I can't parent my s2bx...I have to let him make his own
> mistakes. I feel that if I can protect my kids from seeing their dad in a
> light that might appear to be negative then I'm doing them a favor. I guess
> what I'm worried about is that I have spent two years trying to protect and
> shelter them and cover his tracks when he falls down on the job...what happens
> when they realize that. I don't want them to see their dad in that light. I
> want them to think their dad is a great guy and foster that end of things.
>
> that we are physically closer (ie more able to make sports games that he was
> unable to before). He keeps asking me for more time with the boys (he
> currently gets them *every* weekend) but he is unwilling to let the boys
> do their extracurricular activities in that time (ie karate). He won't even
> take them to religious services. I'm nervous that if he has more time with
> them then he won't be encouraging even the minimum of homework or practice
> time (James will start an instrument this year).
>
Karla
This is a tough situation and almost makes me glad that my ex has
basically disappeared from the kids' lives (I don't mean that!) The
boys are young, I realize, but in your mind how motivated are they to
police themselves? i.e. if Dad won't encourage the music practice, will
James just go do it himself? Same with homework? If not, then probably
school nights are OUT as far as visits outside your home go. This is
tough for you. (AND the boys!). Either that or Dad has to agree to your
terms and conditions on what they have to do on school nights. it
doesn't sound as that's worked too well in the past, though. Their Dad
doesn't know what he's missing out on.
kcd
hi fellow family warriors,
i am new to this list. i married my husband in april 1997. we live with
my teenagers who are 13 (girl) and 15 (boy), and he has two daughters
living 3 hours away with their biomom. my kids' dad, my ex-, died in dec.
1996 and prior to that they had lived with him, not me, since our divorce
in 1989. it's been nuts here for that reason primarily.
i don't know what to ask first. here is my list:
1. my stepdaughters (10,11) and the biomom used to live 500 miles away.
they moved closer this summer and i thought that would be good. but as it
turns out it means i will be seeing my husband less as he will spend one
night a week with them at a hotel in their area. i'm sad....we are still
newlyweds and i will miss him.
2. the biomom has made threatening phone calls (threatening my husband,
me, and my kids) on several occasions, though it's been over a year since
she did so. i have not forgiven her for playing mind f*** with me and my
kids (she left voicemail saying my husband had lied about their divorce,
that they were still married, and on another occasion that she would call
the police on him if he tried to see his daughters). my husband has told
her to page him, not call him ( he has an 800 number pager). she calls
him and tells us or him she forgot the number, she forgot to call the
number, she doesn't have the number right then, etc. when she calls she's
invariably curt and rude to my kids.
3. my younger sd has met me and my daughter and really likes us. the
older one doesn't want to meet us. that's ok with me....i do give them
gifts and cards on holidays and birthdays and try to be an encourager to
them.
back to 2a. i would really like to give the biomom a piece of my mind and
set some limits for her, but i think she is a nut job. seriously. after
my ex died she called me and told me she and i were in exactly in the same
situation----that she understood my sadness about my ex because she had
suffered an equal loss when my husband, her ex, moved here to marry me.
HUH? i don't talk to her or call her, though, because she twists
everything.
4. i'm reading _when you marry a man with children_ -----does anyone
have other book suggestions?
things are tense here re these issues. there are problems w/my kids'
adjustment to their sd, too (primarily around everyone keeping the house
decent, and believe me, it has NEVER been decent, not for more than 10
minutes after my hus. and i got it that way. then it's "let the trashing
begin" as my two basically-good-kids but incredibly slovenly teenagers
wreck it. so my hus. and i are really in desperation about that. we just
step over the empty boxes, laundry, soda cans, etc. we TRY, and we have a
provisional agreement with my kids, to keep the kitchen workable, but the
rest of the house is a goner.)
do you think this is ever going to get better? it's a huge chunk of my
life and i feel very sad about it.
hoping to learn from your stories,
kcd
--
I think it's going to be a long time until American society accepts fat
people. Dieting has been elevated into a religion, a new religion, and
only the thin are "good" and saved. The new messiah is any weight-loss
expert. And if you couple religious fervor and righteousness with desire
and pressure [to lose weight], you have a recipe for dismissive posturing.
- C. K. Grinnell
Vicki Robinson
>
>hi fellow family warriors,
>
Hi, kcd!
>1. my stepdaughters (10,11) and the biomom used to live 500 miles away.
>they moved closer this summer and i thought that would be good. but as it
>turns out it means i will be seeing my husband less as he will spend one
>night a week with them at a hotel in their area. i'm sad....we are still
>newlyweds and i will miss him.
>
I'm sure that lots of folks have good ideas for you, but I can relate
on this one. My SK live 5 to 6 hours away, and my husband drives there
every other weekend. He spends Christmas there. I miss him too, but
you know? I'm *really* glad that he's the kind of man who sacrifices
to maintain more than a "check every two weeks" relationship with his
kids. One of the reasons I married him was that I knew he was a good
dad, and that gave me confidence in his ability to both be a stepdad
and to understand the demands that my kids make on my time. Be giving
about this. You have him for the rest of your lives, but his kids
need him *now*. They will grow up and then he'll be all yours, every
day. In the meantime, appreciate his commitment to his kids.
And maybe you could go with him once a month? I do that, and
sometimes we take my kids too. Suite hotels are *amazingly*
inexpensive, compared to the average chain hotel, considering that you
can get two bedrooms, a living room, a kitchen and two baths. If you
have 4 teens and two adults, you need the room.
Check out Marriott Residence Inns; they're very nice. There are other
chains. A suite a more expensive than a regular room, fer sher, but
for a whole family it's worth it. And look into a specific suite
hotel, not a suite *in* a regular hotel.
>2. the biomom has made threatening phone calls (threatening my husband,
>me, and my kids) on several occasions, though it's been over a year since
>she did so. i have not forgiven her for playing mind f*** with me and my
>kids (she left voicemail saying my husband had lied about their divorce,
>that they were still married, and on another occasion that she would call
>the police on him if he tried to see his daughters). my husband has told
>her to page him, not call him ( he has an 800 number pager). she calls
>him and tells us or him she forgot the number, she forgot to call the
>number, she doesn't have the number right then, etc. when she calls she's
>invariably curt and rude to my kids.
>
Change your number, and only give her the pager number.
>back to 2a. i would really like to give the biomom a piece of my mind and
>set some limits for her, but i think she is a nut job. seriously. after
>my ex died she called me and told me she and i were in exactly in the same
>situation----that she understood my sadness about my ex because she had
>suffered an equal loss when my husband, her ex, moved here to marry me.
>HUH? i don't talk to her or call her, though, because she twists
>everything.
>
And it's not your job, anyway. Let your husband handle her. You be
cordial and pleasant when you deal with her and don't give her any
reason to trash you to her kids. (Doesn't mean that she won't, but
you don't want there to be even a speck of truth in what she says.)
I feel a little sympathy for her; it's revealing that she felt that
losing her husband to divorce is the same as losing him to death. Did
you feel any grief when your ex died? Try to walk in her moccasins
for a while and try to understand what she's telling you. You don't
have to act on it, and it doesn't mean that she is allowed to
interfere with your life, but her pain is real and that's a sad thing.
Just understanding that can help you keep your equilibrium when things
get rough.
>
>things are tense here re these issues. there are problems w/my kids'
>adjustment to their sd, too (primarily around everyone keeping the house
>decent, and believe me, it has NEVER been decent, not for more than 10
>minutes after my hus. and i got it that way. then it's "let the trashing
>begin" as my two basically-good-kids but incredibly slovenly teenagers
>wreck it. so my hus. and i are really in desperation about that. we just
>step over the empty boxes, laundry, soda cans, etc. we TRY, and we have a
>provisional agreement with my kids, to keep the kitchen workable, but the
>rest of the house is a goner.)
>
Fortunately, my husband keeps his opinions to himself about the mess
in our house, because he knows I'll hand him a broom and say "Be my
guest!" (A third of the mess is his anyway.) And he also really
doesn't care, either, so essentially my girls and I handle the house
the way we want to. Every now and then he has to straighten up all of
his flying gear and computer bits and pieces. We get along.
>do you think this is ever going to get better? it's a huge chunk of my
>life and i feel very sad about it.
>
Yes, it will. Remember, you married him for long haul, the rest of
your lives. What, 40, 50 more years? Don't let the next 5 - 10 years
get you down. Roll with the punches. work together. Take care of
yourself and try to keep some perspective. And, yes, I'll say "count
your blessings" too. It helps me, anyway!
Merrie
they are old enough to be learning an instrument then they're old enough
to practice it independently. Hopefully since your move some of the
extacurricular activities are more accessable and perhaps your children
will encourage him to take them. Seems no matter how old kids get they
still say "watch me, watch me."
Merrie
> MR. WIZARD.....I DON'T WANT TO BE A GROWN UP ANYMORE......
>
> FRIZZLE FRAZZLE FRUZZLE FROME....TIME FOR THIS ONE TO COME HOME.
>
> *sigh*
>
> --
> karla
>
> "Money is not required to buy one necessity
> of the soul." Thoreau
>
Julie
Welcome to the group! I'm sorry to hear you're having a hard time with
the family issues. Have you considered family counseling? Our church
offers counseling to members and it's on a donation basis for their
time. Keep reading...there are a lot of people writing books who have
found ways to successfully manage different aspects of life. I wish I
had some to recommend, but it's been a long time since I was in your
situation and can't remember any titles/authors.
I don't have any suggestions on how to deal w/your husband's ex. People
like that are generally fighting only for the conflict they create.
There really is nothing to win, except in their minds.
SSM, maybe you have some words of wisdom? Can you also point her to the
step-parents group? They may have some help to offer as well.
Good luck, and hang in there -
Julie
kcd wrote:
>
> hi fellow family warriors,
>
> i am new to this list. i married my husband in april 1997. we live with
> my teenagers who are 13 (girl) and 15 (boy), and he has two daughters
> living 3 hours away with their biomom. my kids' dad, my ex-, died in dec.
> 1996 and prior to that they had lived with him, not me, since our divorce
> in 1989. it's been nuts here for that reason primarily.
>
> i don't know what to ask first. here is my list:
>
> 1. my stepdaughters (10,11) and the biomom used to live 500 miles away.
> they moved closer this summer and i thought that would be good. but as it
> turns out it means i will be seeing my husband less as he will spend one
> night a week with them at a hotel in their area. i'm sad....we are still
> newlyweds and i will miss him.
>
> 2. the biomom has made threatening phone calls (threatening my husband,
> me, and my kids) on several occasions, though it's been over a year since
> she did so. i have not forgiven her for playing mind f*** with me and my
> kids (she left voicemail saying my husband had lied about their divorce,
> that they were still married, and on another occasion that she would call
> the police on him if he tried to see his daughters). my husband has told
> her to page him, not call him ( he has an 800 number pager). she calls
> him and tells us or him she forgot the number, she forgot to call the
> number, she doesn't have the number right then, etc. when she calls she's
> invariably curt and rude to my kids.
>
> 3. my younger sd has met me and my daughter and really likes us. the
> older one doesn't want to meet us. that's ok with me....i do give them
> gifts and cards on holidays and birthdays and try to be an encourager to
> them.
>
> back to 2a. i would really like to give the biomom a piece of my mind and
> set some limits for her, but i think she is a nut job. seriously. after
> my ex died she called me and told me she and i were in exactly in the same
> situation----that she understood my sadness about my ex because she had
> suffered an equal loss when my husband, her ex, moved here to marry me.
> HUH? i don't talk to her or call her, though, because she twists
> everything.
>
> 4. i'm reading _when you marry a man with children_ -----does anyone
> have other book suggestions?
>
> things are tense here re these issues. there are problems w/my kids'
> adjustment to their sd, too (primarily around everyone keeping the house
> decent, and believe me, it has NEVER been decent, not for more than 10
> minutes after my hus. and i got it that way. then it's "let the trashing
> begin" as my two basically-good-kids but incredibly slovenly teenagers
> wreck it. so my hus. and i are really in desperation about that. we just
> step over the empty boxes, laundry, soda cans, etc. we TRY, and we have a
> provisional agreement with my kids, to keep the kitchen workable, but the
> rest of the house is a goner.)
>
> do you think this is ever going to get better? it's a huge chunk of my
> life and i feel very sad about it.
>
Merrie
probably relate to that better than I. I can relate to the slovenly
teens however... In our home I restrict them from use of the communal
parts of the house unless they pick up after themselves - their own room
I just close the door on (unless they want to have a friend over then
they have to clean it and a nearby bathroom for their friend to use.)
The teens are actually fairly good and in general are neater than their
younger siblings.
As for setting limits for bio-mom, it's pretty hard to do if it relies
on any cooperation from her. The best you can do is distance yourself
where you can. Start by getting an unlisted phone number. I don't
think you need a second line because the the stepkids don't ever visit
your home and Dad has a pager so he can be reached. Then again with
your own teens you might want a second line. Far more accessable than
the secret apartment some of us wish we could have.
Merrie
ange...@my-dejanews.com
susan <su...@cancerboard.ca> wrote:
Karla
> boys are young, I realize, but in your mind how motivated are they to
> police themselves? i.e. if Dad won't encourage the music practice, will
> James just go do it himself? Same with homework? If not, then probably
> school nights are OUT as far as visits outside your home go. This is
> tough for you. (AND the boys!). Either that or Dad has to agree to your
> terms and conditions on what they have to do on school nights. it
> doesn't sound as that's worked too well in the past, though. Their Dad
> doesn't know what he's missing out on.
>
James tends to be a little undermotivated at times...especially when
there is any type of videogame system available. That's part of the problem
the other part is that their dad views any normal activity (ie karate,
b-day parties, etc) as infringement on his time with the boys and tends not
to honor those activities. (See the ARRRRGGGHH thread from a month or
so back)
I want to thank those who have sent me input and will take some time
to synthesize and comment later.
Lady Sundae
: In article <35E571...@cancerboard.ca>,
: susan <su...@cancerboard.ca> wrote:
: Karla
: > boys are young, I realize, but in your mind how motivated are they to
: > police themselves? i.e. if Dad won't encourage the music practice, will
: > James just go do it himself? Same with homework? If not, then probably
: > school nights are OUT as far as visits outside your home go. This is
: > tough for you. (AND the boys!). Either that or Dad has to agree to your
: > terms and conditions on what they have to do on school nights. it
: > doesn't sound as that's worked too well in the past, though. Their Dad
: > doesn't know what he's missing out on.
: James tends to be a little undermotivated at times...especially when
: there is any type of videogame system available. That's part of the problem
: the other part is that their dad views any normal activity (ie karate,
: b-day parties, etc) as infringement on his time with the boys and tends not
: to honor those activities. (See the ARRRRGGGHH thread from a month or
: so back)
I think I have to speak up here. My stepkids have had something
planned on every weekend they have been with us for two years now.
We are never consulted in advance. We are just told where we have
to be if we want to see the children. We can never make plans to
go anywhere or do anything. Everytime we do, we have to cancel.
If we say that we would like to do something else, BioMom paints
us out to be the bad guys. I can understand your ex's frustration.
Have you tried to see it from his point of view? He gets very
limited time with his children and then he can't even plan that
time. You can't reasonably expect that he would take the children
to all things. You wouldn't like it very much if he planned
things for them on your weekends. Consulting with him in advance
would be your best bet. We have tried to get BioMom and/or kids
to ask us first but it never happens. The one weekend thing
we had planned all summer was canceled because she took them to
Seattle knowing full well what our plans were. We never did
get our vacation time either. Let's put it this way: My
DH is less likely to agree to these activities the less and less
we see of the children.
In our case, BioMom does not motivate the children to do anything.
We are always the bad guys because we have rules at our house and
because we won't let them sit there wasting their minds on the
television.
Just my $.02,
Louise
Pattie Schey
> back to 2a. i would really like to give the biomom a piece of my mind and
> set some limits for her, but i think she is a nut job. seriously. after
> my ex died she called me and told me she and i were in exactly in the same
> situation----that she understood my sadness about my ex because she had
> suffered an equal loss when my husband, her ex, moved here to marry me.
> HUH? i don't talk to her or call her, though, because she twists
> everything.
>
> 4. i'm reading _when you marry a man with children_ -----does anyone
> have other book suggestions?
>
> things are tense here re these issues. there are problems w/my kids'
> adjustment to their sd, too (primarily around everyone keeping the house
> decent, and believe me, it has NEVER been decent, not for more than 10
> minutes after my hus. and i got it that way. then it's "let the trashing
> begin" as my two basically-good-kids but incredibly slovenly teenagers
> wreck it. so my hus. and i are really in desperation about that. we just
> step over the empty boxes, laundry, soda cans, etc. we TRY, and we have a
> provisional agreement with my kids, to keep the kitchen workable, but the
> rest of the house is a goner.)
Now I am sorry but it would be a cold day in hell that I would let
TEENAGERS trash my entire house and not clean up. My SD has learned
that her room has to be picked up weekly and if she leaves anything
out..in the trash it goes no matter what. I have taken her clothes off
the floor and thrown them on her bed and IF she decides to pull the
"throw newly folded and washed clothes" back down the laundry
shoot...she gets to do the laundry so now they are put away.
I work fulltime, still cook a meal and keep house plus I freelance
illustrate. My husband and SD share this house and they share the
load. I hear people say teenagers are slobs but I think only if its
allowed. Besides kids want responsiblity right..
Pattie
kcd
> > things are tense here re these issues. there are problems w/my kids'
> > adjustment to their sd, too (primarily around everyone keeping the house
> > decent, and believe me, it has NEVER been decent, not for more than 10
> > minutes after my hus. and i got it that way. then it's "let the trashing
> > begin" as my two basically-good-kids but incredibly slovenly teenagers
> > wreck it. so my hus. and i are really in desperation about that. we just
> > step over the empty boxes, laundry, soda cans, etc. we TRY, and we have a
> > provisional agreement with my kids, to keep the kitchen workable, but the
> > rest of the house is a goner.)
>
>
> Now I am sorry but it would be a cold day in hell that I would let
> TEENAGERS trash my entire house and not clean up. My SD has learned
> that her room has to be picked up weekly and if she leaves anything
> out..in the trash it goes no matter what. I have taken her clothes off
> the floor and thrown them on her bed and IF she decides to pull the
> "throw newly folded and washed clothes" back down the laundry
> shoot...she gets to do the laundry so now they are put away.
>
> I work fulltime, still cook a meal and keep house plus I freelance
> illustrate. My husband and SD share this house and they share the
> load. I hear people say teenagers are slobs but I think only if its
> allowed. Besides kids want responsiblity right..
hi pattie,
it's good that what you do works for you. however your post felt
judgmental to me and i don't think that's appropriate or helpful. i think
my teenagers (my children, not stepchildren) need to work harder, but they
are part of a system, which is our remarriage family, and everyone in the
system is a contributing member to our success.
there is no one right way to do this. certainly not yours, and certainly
not mine. there is only what's workable for each family.
VanEx
I don't think that Pattie meant anything negative by what she said. But
even if she did, she's entitled to her opinion. I have learned that if
you post on this newsgroup - you are going to get negative feedback as
well as positive feedback. Which, IMO, is good. What good would this
NG be if everyone was in LaLa Land saying only good things - even to
people who might need to hear the "truth" and rational opinions.
Please don't get offended by this post, I'm just trying to help you see
that Patty meant no harm - she was just trying to help.
Take care.
Maria
Cour...@nova-net.net
>> things are tense here re these issues. there are problems w/my kids'
>> adjustment to their sd, too (primarily around everyone keeping the house
>> decent, and believe me, it has NEVER been decent, not for more than 10
>> minutes after my hus. and i got it that way. then it's "let the trashing
>> begin" as my two basically-good-kids but incredibly slovenly teenagers
>> wreck it. so my hus. and i are really in desperation about that. we just
>> step over the empty boxes, laundry, soda cans, etc. we TRY, and we have a
>> provisional agreement with my kids, to keep the kitchen workable, but the
>> rest of the house is a goner.)
>Now I am sorry but it would be a cold day in hell that I would let
>TEENAGERS trash my entire house and not clean up.
<snip>
> I hear people say teenagers are slobs but I think only if its
>allowed.
I have to agree with Pattie here. My husband can be every bit as much of a slob as his son (our
garage gives me nightmares!), but the shared living areas of our home are kept neat and picked up,
by *everyone*. If my 18 y/o SS wants to live in a pigsty, that's his problem; the door to his room
can just stay closed. But the rest of this house, which I've worked very hard to make comfortable
and appealing, will NOT become a toxic waste sight. Period.
WSM (was Wicked StepMother)
Wakanyeja Makah
>
>hi fellow family warriors,
Welcome!
Just pull up a chair here on the front porch (right there by the
white railing and watch out for the *killer* Boston Fern) and join us.
>i am new to this list. i married my husband in april 1997. we live with
>my teenagers who are 13 (girl) and 15 (boy), and he has two daughters
>living 3 hours away with their biomom. my kids' dad, my ex-, died in dec.
>1996 and prior to that they had lived with him, not me, since our divorce
>in 1989. it's been nuts here for that reason primarily.
Understandably. Well, you've come to the right place. Most of us get
pretty *nuts* here on a regular basis. Just ask Lil!
>i don't know what to ask first. here is my list:
>
>1. my stepdaughters (10,11) and the biomom used to live 500 miles away.
>they moved closer this summer and i thought that would be good. but as it
>turns out it means i will be seeing my husband less as he will spend one
>night a week with them at a hotel in their area. i'm sad....we are still
>newlyweds and i will miss him.
Why the hotel approach? (...just curious...) Is there a reason that they
don't have visitation at your home (...as part of the family...) since you
are a *family* now.
>2. the biomom has made threatening phone calls (threatening my husband,
>me, and my kids) on several occasions,
Done that..been there...got the tee-shirt..
Your husband needs to address the harassment in a letter to her (copied to
your lawyer) and the fact that he will no longer tolerate it. Your lawyer
likewise needs to copy this letter to her lawyer. An F.Y.I sort of thing.
All harassment should be documented thoroughly with dates/times/what was
said.
I don't know where you live...but check the recording laws in
your state. Some states (Indiana is one of them) has a one party consent
law...meaning that you can buy a gizmo from Radio Shack and tape all of the
calls from your ex and (if your state is a one party consent state) these
can (and will) be used as evidence against her in court..should that become
necessary.
If she continues to harass you (especially threatening your
children) you can file for a restraining/protective order. Then she would
have to find a third party to assist with visitation as she would not be
allowed near your family. This will also go into the records of the court
and it doesn't look good on her to have a restraining order against her.
Above all, keep the upper hand and the moral high road. Do not
stoop to her level of mudslinging (no matter how tempting it might be).
If this sounds like the voice of experience...well...it is... (and
the harassment from our ex has ceased). Of course there are always *other*
problems...*sigh*
>3. my younger sd has met me and my daughter and really likes us. the
>older one doesn't want to meet us. that's ok with me....i do give them
>gifts and cards on holidays and birthdays and try to be an encourager to
>them.
This is really nice. It is sad that the other one doesn't want to meet
you. Perhaps your husband could be more encouraging and explain how you
are all a family now. *sigh* It all takes time.
>4. i'm reading _when you marry a man with children_ -----does anyone
>have other book suggestions?
Have read many of these. No one really stands out. Be yourself with the
kids...and they will (hopefully) warm up to you. You can only IMAGINE what
they have heard from their mother!!! Imagine their surprise when you
aren't some she-devil with horns but instead are a pretty neat lady to whom
their father is very much in love. It takes time. If it helps..imagine
what the ex is going to feel like when one day her daughters come home to
tell her some *neat* thing that you (and they) have shared together..or how
that you ARE really nice....
>things are tense here re these issues. there are problems w/my kids'
>adjustment to their sd, too (primarily around everyone keeping the house
>decent, and believe me, it has NEVER been decent, not for more than 10
>minutes after my hus. and i got it that way. then it's "let the trashing
>begin" as my two basically-good-kids but incredibly slovenly teenagers
>wreck it. so my hus. and i are really in desperation about that. we just
>step over the empty boxes, laundry, soda cans, etc. we TRY, and we have a
>provisional agreement with my kids, to keep the kitchen workable, but the
>rest of the house is a goner.)
Even as slovenly teens I think that limits should be set. Everyone has
responsibility to keep their area clean. Their rooms may be a mess (just
close the door) but when it spills out over the rest of the house...then
you and your husband need to put your foot down and demand respect (or in
this case..a clean living area...) JMHO.
>do you think this is ever going to get better? it's a huge chunk of my
>life and i feel very sad about it.
You are dealing with a lot of different issues. Don't despair. Like I
said initially, you've come to the right place. We are a close group who
share each others triumphs and sorrows. When my stepson was diagnosed with
lead poisoning last Spring I received an amazing amount of support from the
group while we waited with our breath held to see if he had sustained brain
damage (fortunately NOT!) It is good to feel like there are others who
have lived what you are going through and care. It also is nice to see
that *you* aren't the only one going through this mess. Sometimes I think
all of our husbands married the same "ex-wife from Hell". Scary!
>hoping to learn from your stories,
hoping to help...
>kcd
W. Makah
(...whose cat is eyeing the food bowl longingly...)
lilblakdog
Wakanyeja Makah <wma...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
<35e6cc4...@news.tds.net>...
> Welcome!
> Just pull up a chair here on the front porch (right there by the
> white railing and watch out for the *killer* Boston Fern) and join us.
It's nothing personal...we always make the new person sit next to the fern!
Should be someone around to relieve you any day now....
> Well, you've come to the right place. Most of us get
> pretty *nuts* here on a regular basis. Just ask Lil!
<giggle>
Oh dear...am I *that* nuts?
Yes, I guess things do get pretty nutty in my house. But if you want your
stepchildren to go home with stories about how wonderful you are, I'm a
pretty good person to start with, I guess. My stepson used to resent the
time I spent with him and his father...now he resents the time his father
spends with the two of us! Well, it's not quite that bad, but he does love
me hugely and goes home after every visitation to gush for weeks about me
and the stuff we did. Actually, it *is* the best form of retribution you
can have on the ex!
You'll do fine...like Wakanyeja said, it all takes time. It would help if
your older stepdaughter was a little more open (or younger, so that her
refusal to visit wouldn't count for much!), but if you don't give up and
keep doing the nice things you have been, she should come around
eventually.
This newsgroup is a *very* rewarding place to hang out! They've helped my
relationship with my stepson immeasurably! People pick fights every once
in awhile, but you learn to recognize the regulars and stuff and the
support from them (and the majority of the newbies, as well) is wonderful.
Just remember, when you're posting, to tell as much of the story as
possible so that nobody can take things the wrong way...and don't blame
people too much if they have. Nobody can tell *everything* and it leaves a
lot open to interpretation!
Good luck! And I hope you never get to the point I am where you wish that
your husband was staying with *you* one night a week and spending the rest
in the hotel! :-)
lil
ange...@my-dejanews.com
Lady Sundae <lsu...@user2.teleport.com> wrote:
> I think I have to speak up here. My stepkids have had something
> planned on every weekend they have been with us for two years now.
> We are never consulted in advance. We are just told where we have
> to be if we want to see the children. We can never make plans to
> go anywhere or do anything. Everytime we do, we have to cancel.
> If we say that we would like to do something else, BioMom paints
> us out to be the bad guys. I can understand your ex's frustration.
> Have you tried to see it from his point of view? He gets very
> limited time with his children and then he can't even plan that
> time.
I'm assuming you missed the original discussion about a month back
where this got kicked around a lot. Basically, my ex has the kids
every weekend (because I believe it is good for the kids to have a
strong relationship with their dad). Before our separation, James
was in a karate program that has classes M-W-F-Sat and has since he
was first enrolled years ago. It was also explained to us (and
understood by all of us) that in addition to class, he would be
expected to attend the annual tournament (1 sat in the spring) and,
after he reached a certain rank, would be expected to attend events
such as the annual weekend camp, semi-annual seminars (again a 2-3
hour thing), etc.
Also, James' boyscout troupe a couple of years ago could only meet
on every other Sunday for a couple of hours. I had no control over
this and the leader tried to find a different time but could not.
James' father is *very* reluctant to allow the kids to do anything
that does not involve him. This is a problem, especially now that
the kids are getting older, in that they know no one near their
dad's house and are quite isolated and dependent on him when they
are there on the weekends.
It would be one thing if I was scheduling things deliberately, but
I once again maintain that part of allowing your kids to be "normal"
(in spite of being divided between two homes) is allowing your kids
to participate in regular activities...no matter when they meet. It
was a total pain in the butt to get James to regular little league
practice and games this past spring (especially since his team made
it to the city-wide playoffs, thus extending the season into mid-July)
BUT that is part of the committment he made when he joined the team.
His father made little to no effort to take James to games/practices
that fell on weekends and totally blew off the team party in July
because it was during "his" time. To me the time is James', not mine
or his dad's.
Kids in a two parent home don't get this "my" time crap, even when
one parent is working 10 hour days and only gets to see their kids
on the weekend (and that happens quite a bit). James, and his brother
Micah, are never enrolled in anything...such as little league...without
their dad's knowledge and consent. That's how it is HOWEVER I do expect
their dad to honor that committment as well.
>You can't reasonably expect that he would take the children
> to all things. You wouldn't like it very much if he planned
> things for them on your weekends. Consulting with him in advance
> would be your best bet. We have tried to get BioMom and/or kids
> to ask us first but it never happens. The one weekend thing
> we had planned all summer was canceled because she took them to
> Seattle knowing full well what our plans were. We never did
> get our vacation time either. Let's put it this way: My
> DH is less likely to agree to these activities the less and less
> we see of the children.
>
You are making assumptions here based on your experience. As I
said, this was debated quite fully a month ago. Also, as one of
the village irregulars here, most of the folks know my situation.
> In our case, BioMom does not motivate the children to do anything.
> We are always the bad guys because we have rules at our house and
> because we won't let them sit there wasting their minds on the
> television.
See, I do motivate the kids. While I don't object to TV, I do limit
video games and TV. It has been an odd summer and we didn't get to
do a lot of things that I would have like to have, but between juggling
irregular schedules (to the point where the exception became the rule)
a move and other things, they probably got a bit more TV time than I
would have liked. On the other hand, I do have very *definate* rules
about things (ie homework time, etc.)
Their dad, conversely, constantly blows off little things like religious
services because the kids would rather play Nintendo. Anytime he has said
"the kids aren't going to karate this weekend because of .... " and mentioned
specific plans...not a problem. When it comes to letting them do nothing
because it means they are with him instead...that's a problem.
>
> Just my $.02,
> Louise
Mary Jo Sterns
must learn that we must let others take responsibility and make mistakes.
MJ
some...@my-dejanews.com wrote in article
<6s17vr$b63$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
Merrie
>
I think mine want freedom without the responsibility...
Merrie
Lisa
California, Maryland, and many other states, it is a crime to record a
conversation unless everybody in the conversation knows it is being
recorded. Federal law allows one person to record her own conversation,
but the majority of states don't.
Lisa
Wakanyeja Makah wrote:
>
> On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:34:36 -0800, tim...@best.com (kcd) wrote:
<snip>
> >2. the biomom has made threatening phone calls (threatening my husband,
> >me, and my kids) on several occasions,
>
> Done that..been there...got the tee-shirt..
>
> Your husband needs to address the harassment in a letter to her (copied to
> your lawyer) and the fact that he will no longer tolerate it. Your lawyer
> likewise needs to copy this letter to her lawyer. An F.Y.I sort of thing.
> All harassment should be documented thoroughly with dates/times/what was
> said.
> I don't know where you live...but check the recording laws in
> your state. Some states (Indiana is one of them) has a one party consent
> law...meaning that you can buy a gizmo from Radio Shack and tape all of the
> calls from your ex and (if your state is a one party consent state) these
> can (and will) be used as evidence against her in court..should that become
> necessary.
<snip>
nancy g.
> I agree with everything W.M. said. And you should know that in
> California, Maryland, and many other states, it is a crime to record a
> conversation unless everybody in the conversation knows it is being
> recorded. Federal law allows one person to record her own conversation,
> but the majority of states don't.
On the other hand, even many of those states that don't allow a third party
to record telephone conversations will allow you to tape a conversation if
*you, yourself* are one of the two parties talking.
Being allowed to tape it, however, does not necessarily mean that it would
be considered admissable in court. Some states allow taping of conversation
but refuse to let the tapes serve as evidence.
The best advice, as others have said, is to check the laws in your own state.
Wakanyeja Makah
>California, Maryland, and many other states, it is a crime to record a
>conversation unless everybody in the conversation knows it is being
>recorded. Federal law allows one person to record her own conversation,
>but the majority of states don't.
>
>
Agreed. This is why it is VERY important to check your local laws. In
Indiana as long as one of the parties (in our case-US) knows that the
conversation is being recorded...it is perfectly legal. In other states it
can be, not only inadmissable, but sometimes downright illegal.
You have to do your homework.
W. Makah
susan
>
> In alt.support.step-parents ange...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> : In article <35E571...@cancerboard.ca>,
> : susan <su...@cancerboard.ca> wrote:
> : Karla
> : > boys are young, I realize, but in your mind how motivated are they to
> : > police themselves? i.e. if Dad won't encourage the music practice, will
> : > James just go do it himself? Same with homework? If not, then probably
> : > school nights are OUT as far as visits outside your home go. This is
> : > tough for you. (AND the boys!). Either that or Dad has to agree to your
> : > terms and conditions on what they have to do on school nights. it
> : > doesn't sound as that's worked too well in the past, though. Their Dad
> : > doesn't know what he's missing out on.
>
> : James tends to be a little undermotivated at times...especially when
> : there is any type of videogame system available. That's part of the problem
> : the other part is that their dad views any normal activity (ie karate,
> : b-day parties, etc) as infringement on his time with the boys and tends not
> : to honor those activities. (See the ARRRRGGGHH thread from a month or
> : so back)
>
> planned on every weekend they have been with us for two years now.
> We are never consulted in advance. We are just told where we have
> to be if we want to see the children. We can never make plans to
> go anywhere or do anything. Everytime we do, we have to cancel.
> If we say that we would like to do something else, BioMom paints
> us out to be the bad guys. I can understand your ex's frustration.
> Have you tried to see it from his point of view?
She's tried. Maybe you haven't been around too long, but this lady has
bent over backwards, sideways and upside down to accommodate her ex. He
just refuses to accommodate the boys' schedules, which I personally find
very childish and selfish. None of us, as parents, can dictate when Boy
Scouts meets. There are 10, 15 or 35 boys in the group - probably half
of them from divorced families - do you really expect that the leader
can accommodate EVERY request to hold the meetings at a certain time?
The same with karate or any other sport. The practices and games are
scheduled WAY ahead of time, and take into account availability of
coaches, referees, space, etc. They cannot be pushed around at the whim
of an antagonistic parent.
He gets very
> limited time with his children and then he can't even plan that
> time.
Of course he can. He simply has to take the boys to a 2 or 3 hour
karate seminar during that time. By my math, that still leaves him 45 or
46 hours to plan whatever he wants on a weekend. A seminar that HE would
have been very welcome to take part in himself, from what I understand.
A parent can stand back and whine that they "never see their kids" or
they can roll up their sleeves, step in and help out with activities
that the kids are involved in. Every group needs volunteers and it
would have been an excellent way for Dad to have joined his sons in
their interest sport. Instead he chose to REFUSE to let the boy go to
the camp.
You can't reasonably expect that he would take the children
> to all things. You wouldn't like it very much if he planned
> things for them on your weekends.
Things happen when they happen.
Consulting with him in advance
> would be your best bet. We have tried to get BioMom and/or kids
> to ask us first but it never happens. The one weekend thing
> we had planned all summer was canceled because she took them to
> Seattle knowing full well what our plans were. We never did
> get our vacation time either. Let's put it this way: My
> DH is less likely to agree to these activities the less and less
> we see of the children.
>
Well, I'd say his problem is with his ex, NOT with the kids. Karla is
trying to step back from this stuff and not let it become a fight
between the kids and their Dad. She is taking the brunt of the crap from
him. Your problem doens't sound the same to me at all. We're talking
here about long-term commitments (karate, soccer, hockey, etc.) that
cannot be changed and rearranged on a whim just to satisfy a lazy Dad
who won't get his butt off the couch and take the kids to their sports.
Or who prefers to sit and whine that his time is being "cut into"
instead of seeing the benefit of getting out and joining them.
susan
>
> >
> > back to 2a. i would really like to give the biomom a piece of my mind and
> > set some limits for her, but i think she is a nut job. seriously. after
> > my ex died she called me and told me she and i were in exactly in the same
> > situation----that she understood my sadness about my ex because she had
> > suffered an equal loss when my husband, her ex, moved here to marry me.
> > HUH? i don't talk to her or call her, though, because she twists
> > everything.
> >
> > have other book suggestions?
> >
> > adjustment to their sd, too (primarily around everyone keeping the house
> > decent, and believe me, it has NEVER been decent, not for more than 10
> > minutes after my hus. and i got it that way. then it's "let the trashing
> > begin" as my two basically-good-kids but incredibly slovenly teenagers
> > wreck it. so my hus. and i are really in desperation about that. we just
> > step over the empty boxes, laundry, soda cans, etc. we TRY, and we have a
> > provisional agreement with my kids, to keep the kitchen workable, but the
> > rest of the house is a goner.)
>
> that her room has to be picked up weekly and if she leaves anything
> out..in the trash it goes no matter what. I have taken her clothes off
> the floor and thrown them on her bed and IF she decides to pull the
> "throw newly folded and washed clothes" back down the laundry
> shoot...she gets to do the laundry so now they are put away.
>
I did the same thing. I actually started it when my kids were very
young. I threatened time and time again that if they didn't pick up
their toys I would throw them away. One day they challenged me to the
point where I actually put the stuff into green bags and hauled it out
to the garbage can. I have also thrown my daughter's clothes away.
> I work fulltime, still cook a meal and keep house plus I freelance
> illustrate. My husband and SD share this house and they share the
> load. I hear people say teenagers are slobs but I think only if its
> allowed.
True. I hear people say "they can do what they want to their room", but
what I tell my kids is "No, it is MY room that you are ALLOWED to use as
long as you take care of it". After all, I am the one paying the rent.
Besides kids want responsiblity right..
Yes they do, but they won't ask for it. Sometimes you have to make it
pretty black and white for them.
janelaw
>
>
> I think I have to speak up here. My stepkids have had something
> planned on every weekend they have been with us for two years now.
> We are never consulted in advance. We are just told where we have
> to be if we want to see the children. We can never make plans to
> go anywhere or do anything. Everytime we do, we have to cancel.
> If we say that we would like to do something else, BioMom paints
> us out to be the bad guys. I can understand your ex's frustration.
> limited time with his children and then he can't even plan that
> to all things. You wouldn't like it very much if he planned
> would be your best bet. We have tried to get BioMom and/or kids
> to ask us first but it never happens. The one weekend thing
> we had planned all summer was canceled because she took them to
> Seattle knowing full well what our plans were. We never did
> get our vacation time either. Let's put it this way: My
> DH is less likely to agree to these activities the less and less
> we see of the children.
>
> We are always the bad guys because we have rules at our house and
> because we won't let them sit there wasting their minds on the
> television.
>
> Louise
Louise,
I agree with everything you said.
But you have to stop being a doormat about this.
My ex completely flips if I plan ANYTHING on his time. After
much yelling and screaming, I have decided that he is right, and
I was wrong. Although, I am perfect in every other way. ;-)
Seriously, if an activity is important enough to my daughter,
then she will convince him herself. She is 11 yo now, and quite
capable of presenting her point of view. Otherwise, if he
hasn't agreed to it in advance, then he simply refuses to do
it. I don't know if he worries about appearing to be that bad
guy or not. I do know that my daughter adores her dad.
Whatever issues they have to work out around this, they do it
better without my intervention.
For a while this drove me nuts, because we live 3000 miles
apart, and I can't bring her to see her friends myself. I, too,
think that visitation is "her" time, not mine or his. Then, I
realized that I would not respond well to him scheduling things
for me to do with her, either. For example, he would like her
to be more involved in sports, but I would rather die a slow and
painful death that sit through a single children's sporting
event.
Just say no.
janelaw
>
> Lady Sundae wrote:
> >
> >
> > I think I have to speak up here. My stepkids have had something
> > planned on every weekend they have been with us for two years now.
> > We are never consulted in advance. We are just told where we have
> > to be if we want to see the children. We can never make plans to
> > go anywhere or do anything. Everytime we do, we have to cancel.
> > If we say that we would like to do something else, BioMom paints
> > us out to be the bad guys. I can understand your ex's frustration.
> > Have you tried to see it from his point of view?
>
> She's tried. Maybe you haven't been around too long, but this lady has
> bent over backwards, sideways and upside down to accommodate her ex. He
> just refuses to accommodate the boys' schedules, which I personally find
> very childish and selfish.
This is not looking at things from his point of view. The boy's
visitation with their dad IS their schedule. Anything else they
want to do, they have to clear through him and convince him to
participate in. I know this is frustrating when you want them
to do other things during that time. It has driven me nuts.
The bottom line is: you can't schedule anything for the kids
during their visitation time with the ex, even if that means
they have to miss out on activities you and they would like them
to participate in.
None of us, as parents, can dictate when Boy
> Scouts meets. There are 10, 15 or 35 boys in the group - probably half
> of them from divorced families - do you really expect that the leader
> can accommodate EVERY request to hold the meetings at a certain time?
> The same with karate or any other sport. The practices and games are
> scheduled WAY ahead of time, and take into account availability of
> coaches, referees, space, etc. They cannot be pushed around at the whim
> of an antagonistic parent.
And none of us, as parents, can dictate that our kids go to Boy
Scouts during their visitation with our exes. If he won't take
them, they just have to miss those meetings. Also, I don't see
how you can assume this guy is antagonistic. Maybe he is just
lazy. Maybe he wants to go fishing. Maybe he just doesn't care
about his kids participating in scouts or karate. If he
doesn't, then you really can't expect him to support these
activities.
>
> He gets very
> > limited time with his children and then he can't even plan that
> > time.
>
> Of course he can. He simply has to take the boys to a 2 or 3 hour
> karate seminar during that time. By my math, that still leaves him 45 or
> 46 hours to plan whatever he wants on a weekend. A seminar that HE would
> have been very welcome to take part in himself, from what I understand.
> A parent can stand back and whine that they "never see their kids" or
> they can roll up their sleeves, step in and help out with activities
> that the kids are involved in. Every group needs volunteers and it
> would have been an excellent way for Dad to have joined his sons in
> their interest sport. Instead he chose to REFUSE to let the boy go to
> the camp.
>
The most obvious problem with this is that a karate seminar, or
any scheduled weekend event, rules out week end trips camping,
visiting grandparents, etc. Even more important, it forces one
parent to waste his time with the children doing something he
doesn't want to do. While he has custody of the kids, he gets
to decide what they will participate in. Certainly, he gets to
decide what is worth rolling up his own sleeves for. And he can
and should be able to see his kids without participating in any
activity at all. If Bio-Dad's idea of quality time is eating
pizza and watching football all weekend, that's his business.
If the kids don't like it, they can tell him, or act up, or do
all the other things kids do to demonstrate disapproval.
> You can't reasonably expect that he would take the children
> > to all things. You wouldn't like it very much if he planned
> > things for them on your weekends.
>
> Things happen when they happen.
But they don't HAVE to happen at all.
>
> Consulting with him in advance
> > would be your best bet. We have tried to get BioMom and/or kids
> > to ask us first but it never happens. The one weekend thing
> > we had planned all summer was canceled because she took them to
> > Seattle knowing full well what our plans were. We never did
> > get our vacation time either. Let's put it this way: My
> > DH is less likely to agree to these activities the less and less
> > we see of the children.
> >
> Well, I'd say his problem is with his ex, NOT with the kids. Karla is
> trying to step back from this stuff and not let it become a fight
> between the kids and their Dad. She is taking the brunt of the crap from
> him. Your problem doens't sound the same to me at all. We're talking
> here about long-term commitments (karate, soccer, hockey, etc.) that
> cannot be changed and rearranged on a whim just to satisfy a lazy Dad
> who won't get his butt off the couch and take the kids to their sports.
> Or who prefers to sit and whine that his time is being "cut into"
> instead of seeing the benefit of getting out and joining them.
The fight HAS to be between the kids and their dad. If the
conflict is between what the kids want and what their dad wants,
then they have to resolve it. They just cannot make long-term
weekly commitments unless both parents are fully supportive of
them. Karla has to let go. She will drive herself nuts trying
to get in the middle of this. If dad is lazy or not interested,
she cannot and will not make him change. Hopefully, the kids
can convince him that it is important enough to them to motivate
him. If the ex still has problems with Karla, then he'll never
change his mind for her.
Pat Winstanley
writes
>Even more important, it forces one
>parent to waste his time with the children doing something he
>doesn't want to do. While he has custody of the kids, he gets
>to decide what they will participate in.
Why? Mother doesn't while she has custody!
--
Pat Winstanley
Karin Dietterich
>susan wrote:
>> Lady Sundae wrote:
>> She's tried. Maybe you haven't been around too long, but this lady has
>> bent over backwards, sideways and upside down to accommodate her ex. He
>> just refuses to accommodate the boys' schedules, which I personally find
>> very childish and selfish.
>This is not looking at things from his point of view. The boy's
>visitation with their dad IS their schedule. Anything else they
>want to do, they have to clear through him and convince him to
>participate in.
Ah, this is the part of the prior discussion that you missed. The boys'
father had agreed to support them in Boy Scouts and karate. He was
consulted, and he failed to follow through with the commitment he
made to the boys. That is childish and selfish.
>The most obvious problem with this is that a karate seminar, or
>any scheduled weekend event, rules out week end trips camping,
>visiting grandparents, etc. Even more important, it forces one
>parent to waste his time with the children doing something he
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Waste his time? He's *with* his children. He's watching them grow and
learn. The karate seminar was a one weekend deal, not every weekend.
Karin, Mom to David (8/31/85)
--
Karin Dietterich k...@teleport.com
I love deadlines. I especially like the whooshing
sound they make as they go flying by.
Snickers
> Louise,
Hello!
> I agree with everything you said.
I was beginning to think I was crazy. :)
> But you have to stop being a doormat about this.
We are trying. Unfortunately, BM loves to have these discussions
in full view of the children. She then points out how evil and
mean we are for not always rearranging our schedules.
> My ex completely flips if I plan ANYTHING on his time. After
> much yelling and screaming, I have decided that he is right, and
> I was wrong. Although, I am perfect in every other way. ;-)
*smile* Of course you are. So am I. Except for that
annoying habit I have of saying what I think and not being
very tactful. I think it got me into trouble in this
thread.
> Seriously, if an activity is important enough to my daughter,
> then she will convince him herself. She is 11 yo now, and quite
> capable of presenting her point of view. Otherwise, if he
> hasn't agreed to it in advance, then he simply refuses to do
> it. I don't know if he worries about appearing to be that bad
> guy or not. I do know that my daughter adores her dad.
> Whatever issues they have to work out around this, they do it
> better without my intervention.
How it goes at our house is something like this:
If the event is not on our weekend, we are never told. We are
never told about band concerts, school functions, anything.
If the event is on our weekend the children call on Thursday
before we are supposed to pick them up on Friday to tell us
and ask. Nine times out of ten, we say yes. However, if we
say no, they hang up, talk to mom, and call back saying they
have to be there. This weekend was a prime example. The oldest
had a soccer jamboree (season opening event with no effect on
the season itself). We had planned to go to the beach so
we said no. He then called back and said we could go to both.
We said no. Mom then told us he should go. We said no again.
So, he comes over all surly because we said no and stuck by
it. He didn't talk to me all weekend seeing this as my fault.
This is the first uninterrupted weekend visit we have had in
over two years.
When we try to discuss this untenable situation with BioMom,
she tells us that we need to be a part of their lives. However,
we can't be because they never let us. Brandon has been playing
on the same soccer team for three years now. The parents refuse
to talk to us or acknowledge that we bring him up to games.
It is a 45 minute trip to soccer and another 45 coming back.
We are never informed of anything to do with school. We have had
to bring the children home early so they could sing in church
choir at a special dinner but we weren't invited. It is a losing
situation all around.
> For a while this drove me nuts, because we live 3000 miles
> apart, and I can't bring her to see her friends myself. I, too,
> think that visitation is "her" time, not mine or his. Then, I
> realized that I would not respond well to him scheduling things
> for me to do with her, either. For example, he would like her
> to be more involved in sports, but I would rather die a slow and
> painful death that sit through a single children's sporting
> event.
Children's soccer can make you crazy!!!
I would never even think of planning something for her time with
the children without her prior approval. She has no qualms about
scheduling our time with them without our knowledge. She even
goes so far as to tell us what movies we should take them to see
and what movies we shouldn't. The kids will come and say, "Mom
said for you to take us to see X." I always say that the decision
resides with us. In the past year, she has taken the children
to Seattle, Florida, Seattle, Wenatchee and other parts in
between on our weekends without even a how-do-you-do. We try
to reschedule and they always conveniently have something else
planned for her weekend too.
I don't know where she comes up with the time to think of so
many ways to interfere with our visitation. So, more and more,
my husband just doesn't take the children to soccer or whatever.
He sees them 4 days a month. If he doesn't want to take them to
soccer because he would rather spend time playing with them, then
that is his perogative. We shouldn't have to put up with the
bitching from BioMom.
Whew!
I feel better now.
Thanks,
Louise
> Just say no.
Snickers
> Lady Sundae wrote:
> >
> > I think I have to speak up here. My stepkids have had something
> > planned on every weekend they have been with us for two years now.
> > We are never consulted in advance. We are just told where we have
> > to be if we want to see the children. We can never make plans to
> > go anywhere or do anything. Everytime we do, we have to cancel.
> > If we say that we would like to do something else, BioMom paints
> > us out to be the bad guys. I can understand your ex's frustration.
> > Have you tried to see it from his point of view?
>
>
> She's tried. Maybe you haven't been around too long, but this lady has
> bent over backwards, sideways and upside down to accommodate her ex.
I have been a lurker and infrequent poster in alt.support.step-parents
for over three years now. Maybe you are posting from the crossposted
group and that is why you expect me to know her problem. It does not
change my opinion in the least.
> He
> just refuses to accommodate the boys' schedules, which I personally find
> very childish and selfish.
Okay, put the shoe on the other foot. If you only had weekends with
your children, how would you feel if someone demanded that you spend
your time with them in a certain manner? If you think of it honestly,
you will know that it wouldn't set well with you.
> None of us, as parents, can dictate when Boy
> Scouts meets. There are 10, 15 or 35 boys in the group - probably half
> of them from divorced families - do you really expect that the leader
> can accommodate EVERY request to hold the meetings at a certain time?
> The same with karate or any other sport. The practices and games are
> scheduled WAY ahead of time, and take into account availability of
> coaches, referees, space, etc. They cannot be pushed around at the whim
> of an antagonistic parent.
A: I never said they should be pushed around.
B: Why do you call him antagonistic? Have you heard his side of
things?
C: He will always have the right to say no to them about anything
when he is in the position of being their primary parent which
is what he is when they are with him. Just as Karla has the
right to say no, he should have that same right.
> > He gets very
> > limited time with his children and then he can't even plan that
> > time.
>
> Of course he can. He simply has to take the boys to a 2 or 3 hour
> karate seminar during that time. By my math, that still leaves him 45 or
> 46 hours to plan whatever he wants on a weekend. A seminar that HE would
> have been very welcome to take part in himself, from what I understand.
> A parent can stand back and whine that they "never see their kids" or
> they can roll up their sleeves, step in and help out with activities
> that the kids are involved in. Every group needs volunteers and it
> would have been an excellent way for Dad to have joined his sons in
> their interest sport. Instead he chose to REFUSE to let the boy go to
> the camp.
No, he can't plan his time. We want to go to the beach. We
can't because we can't do soccer and the beach. Now, we should
have been consulted about soccer season before it started not
two days before a game that didn't matter. If her ex chooses
not to take them to camp, karate or whatever, it is his choice.
She cannot force him to do anything on his time with them. It
isn't right and it isn't fair.
> > You can't reasonably expect that he would take the children
> > to all things. You wouldn't like it very much if he planned
> > things for them on your weekends.
>
> Things happen when they happen.
Think about this please. Suppose living 45 minutes away from your
ex, he signed the kids up for football. Now, on your days, he expects
you to take them to practice and to games. He makes no allowance for
previous plans. He always tells your children how bad you are because
you won't bring them to all practices and all games.
> > Consulting with him in advance
> > would be your best bet. We have tried to get BioMom and/or kids
> > to ask us first but it never happens. The one weekend thing
> > we had planned all summer was canceled because she took them to
> > Seattle knowing full well what our plans were. We never did
> > get our vacation time either. Let's put it this way: My
> > DH is less likely to agree to these activities the less and less
> > we see of the children.
> >
> Well, I'd say his problem is with his ex, NOT with the kids. Karla is
> trying to step back from this stuff and not let it become a fight
> between the kids and their Dad. She is taking the brunt of the crap from
> him. Your problem doens't sound the same to me at all. We're talking
> here about long-term commitments (karate, soccer, hockey, etc.) that
> cannot be changed and rearranged on a whim just to satisfy a lazy Dad
> who won't get his butt off the couch and take the kids to their sports.
> Or who prefers to sit and whine that his time is being "cut into"
> instead of seeing the benefit of getting out and joining them.
I am talking about soccer, basketball, baseball, Boy Scouts, church
choir and everything else. Children do not have to be at every
game. They go on vacation with their mom and it is okay to miss
something. We want to take a trip and it takes an act of Congress.
Something isn't right here and it isn't us. If the kids miss an
event because Karla has other plans, does the world come to a stop?
No. Kids need to learn that the world does not revolve around them
and that there are times when other plans and things will take
precedence. You see the Dad as lazy. I see him as someone who has
had his feelings invalidated. He has been told what he has to do.
Wouldn't it be easier to call him and ask him before signing the
kids up for long-term commitments? He might respond differently
if he was at least consulted on the matter. I don't think he
is lazy and whining. I think he is hurt that he is not consulted
but instead told where to go. He has also been told what activities
he must join in on. No one likes to be told how to live their
life.
The problem is between him and the kids. If the kids really want
to go, then they need to try to get him to see their point of
view. Right now, Dad probably just sees it as one more way that
Karla is trying to control his life. We see it that way when we
are never consulted.
Just my $.02,
Louise
Snickers
> In article <35EB988B...@excite.com>, janelaw <jan...@excite.com>
wrote:
> >susan wrote:
> >> She's tried. Maybe you haven't been around too long, but this lady has
> >> bent over backwards, sideways and upside down to accommodate her ex. He
> >> just refuses to accommodate the boys' schedules, which I personally find
> >> very childish and selfish.
>
> >This is not looking at things from his point of view. The boy's
> >visitation with their dad IS their schedule. Anything else they
> >want to do, they have to clear through him and convince him to
> >participate in.
>
> Ah, this is the part of the prior discussion that you missed. The boys'
> father had agreed to support them in Boy Scouts and karate. He was
> consulted, and he failed to follow through with the commitment he
> made to the boys. That is childish and selfish.
So, how are the people in alt.support.step-parents supposed to be
aware of the whole story? With the facts available, I saw this as
an exact rendition of what goes on in our lives. If he agreed to
support them and then backed out, that is something entirely
different. In any case, the children need to plead their case
with him. He will always perceive this as parental alienation
if the children do not make their needs and wants known. We always
ask our children what they want to do. We try to accomodate but
can't always do that.
> >The most obvious problem with this is that a karate seminar, or
> >any scheduled weekend event, rules out week end trips camping,
> >visiting grandparents, etc. Even more important, it forces one
> >parent to waste his time with the children doing something he
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Waste his time? He's *with* his children. He's watching them grow and
> learn. The karate seminar was a one weekend deal, not every weekend.
Maybe arrangements should have been made to switch times if he
didn't want to go to the seminar. Karate bores me silly and I
know I would try to make other arrangements. Again, I don't think
we know the whole story. If the parent is doing something with the
children that he would rather not be doing, he may feel that he is
wasting his time. That would be his opinion and he has a right to
that opinion no matter how much everyone else would disagree with
it.
Louise
Pugg
to take my child to soccar games and such, you bet your life I would.
Why? Because I would realize how important it is for a child to participate
in these activities. I would understand that it increases my child's
self-esteem to be competant at something the child enjoys. I would know
that it increases my child's chance of making friends (especially if shy),
and adds immeasurably to the child's maturity. As kids grow into
highschool, they are tempted to get into all kinds of things nowadays. By
getting them involved in sports, activities, and hobbies, a parent increases
the chances that the child will stear clear of these negative things.
A child that participates in sports develops a life-long level of fitness,
because being in shape becomes a habit. I would understand that it would be
hard for him or her to feel part of the team when they only show up for half
the games. Especially if they don't have a lot of extra kids on the team;
many times the team depends on them to show up (not every single time, but
at least most of the time.) It is hard on the child when he feels he has
let the team down. They would probably feel bad about it and might just
decide to quit. If they don't participate in sports when they are younger,
they often feel too awkward and unskilled to join a team in the middle and
high school years, even if they really wanted to.
My point in all this is to point out that being the taxi for your kids is
not always fun, even for parents who have the kids on school days. Most of
the time it is the child who asks to do this or that, not the parent pushing
it. Parents do it because they understand the benefit to letting the child
shine. I wish more non-custodial parents would see it that way. I guess I
just see it as part of the job of being a parent. Maybe you could explain
why often non-custodial parents don't see it that way. Because, to tell you
the truth, I don't understand it.
They don't have to do any of this stuff during the week, so why is it such a
big deal to do it once during the weekend for 2 months or so in the fall and
spring.
I can see your point that perhaps sometimes kids are overscheduled. Maybe
the truth in all this lies in seeking a balance. You know the saying:
anything to excess is not good.
Isn't it sad that divorced parents can't have more communication about their
children, even if they don't like each other. I know I wish it was the
case for me.
I do think that there is no use worrying about things that are simply out of
one's control. But is that all it becomes, a power struggle? How sad for
the kids to be caught up in this.
Maria
On a personal note, my 12yo son is always unhappy if he misses a game (he
plays soccar and baseball.) His Dad manages to get him there maybe 1/3
the times he has him, which is every other weekend. Now that he is 12, he
has asked me to come pick him up and take him to the games if his Dad won't.
I promised to do that if I am not working that day. It's over an hour round
trip-twice for me, but I will gladly do it. I have a feeling I won't have
to, though, because his Dad just might decide to take him instead of having
me show up.
One time last year he turned to me after sadly explaining that his Dad was
too busy to take him and how his Dad complained about how far away it was,
(not spending time with him, by the way, but working on the house), and
said, "I know you would do it, Mom." If only his Dad could have seen his
face and heard him say that, I think he would think twice about regarding it
as a nuisance.
Snickers wrote in message ...
ange...@my-dejanews.com
> This is not looking at things from his point of view. The boy's
> visitation with their dad IS their schedule. Anything else they
> want to do, they have to clear through him and convince him to
> participate in. I know this is frustrating when you want them
> to do other things during that time. It has driven me nuts.
> The bottom line is: you can't schedule anything for the kids
> during their visitation time with the ex, even if that means
> they have to miss out on activities you and they would like them
> to participate in.
So then all kids who come from divorced families must now be deprived
of sporting teams, birthday parties and any other activity that is
part of their social development because they have a NCP that can act
like a toddler? That isn't fair and it isn't responsible adult behavior.
Part of trying to raise normal kids, even if you are divorced, is letting
the kids do kid-things. This includes music, sports, scouting and other
social activities that require committment. It is not fair to the other
kids in the group to say "Oh Johnny can't fully commit like the rest of
you because he's special, his NCP <no matter what gender> doesn't like
to share the time they have with Johnny. I know that you all need to
work on team drills and practice, but it's not fair to leave Johnny on
the bench because of his NCP."
One thing we need to teach our kids is to commit. Especially since our
marriages, one of the biggest commitments we have made in our lives, have
failed for one reason or another.
> And none of us, as parents, can dictate that our kids go to Boy
> Scouts during their visitation with our exes. If he won't take
> them, they just have to miss those meetings. Also, I don't see
> how you can assume this guy is antagonistic. Maybe he is just
> lazy. Maybe he wants to go fishing. Maybe he just doesn't care
> about his kids participating in scouts or karate. If he
> doesn't, then you really can't expect him to support these
> activities.
And when your child's therapist clearly states to both parents that
your son is having social problems and needs to be involved in....
or your son comes home because "everybody" is going to be in boy scouts
this year and he doesn't want to be left out...
In our case, karate was a long-term mutually agreed upon commitment.
I'm sorry he doesn't feel like dragging his sorry butt to the dojang
once a week. I get to do it the other three days. He agreed to the
terms of karate long ago. He's just steamed that the kids are still
involved in karate at all. He figured once Power Rangers went away,
the martial arts training would too. I guess he didn't realize that
they might like going to karate or find the training to be an anchor
in an otherwise turbulent life.
> The most obvious problem with this is that a karate seminar, or
> any scheduled weekend event, rules out week end trips camping,
> visiting grandparents, etc. Even more important, it forces one
> parent to waste his time with the children doing something he
> doesn't want to do. While he has custody of the kids, he gets
> to decide what they will participate in. Certainly, he gets to
> decide what is worth rolling up his own sleeves for. And he can
> and should be able to see his kids without participating in any
> activity at all. If Bio-Dad's idea of quality time is eating
> pizza and watching football all weekend, that's his business.
> If the kids don't like it, they can tell him, or act up, or do
> all the other things kids do to demonstrate disapproval.
And when he has them EVERY weekend (and he does) he can schedule
things either around special events (they don't happen every week)
or say "The kids won't make karate this week because we're going
camping..." That happens. That is understandable. But when they
aren't going because they're sitting at home playing Nintendo...well,
yeah, I have a REAL problem with that.
I would not think of putting my kids in the middle of such things. They
are kids dammit. Why should they have to act like the adult instead
of their NCP? To force the kids to "fight it out" with their dad is to
create a level of hostility that is unnecessary. If their bio-dad acted
like an adult in these situations, the kids would be much better off.
> But they don't HAVE to happen at all.
You're right...they aren't in spite of the kids wanting to do these
things anyway.
> The fight HAS to be between the kids and their dad. If the
> conflict is between what the kids want and what their dad wants,
> then they have to resolve it. They just cannot make long-term
> weekly commitments unless both parents are fully supportive of
> them. Karla has to let go. She will drive herself nuts trying
> to get in the middle of this. If dad is lazy or not interested,
> she cannot and will not make him change. Hopefully, the kids
> can convince him that it is important enough to them to motivate
> him. If the ex still has problems with Karla, then he'll never
> change his mind for her.
>
Again, why would you put a 6 year old boy in the middle of an adult
fight? If the bio-dad has a problem with me, talk to me don't take
it out on the kids. If he doesn't want them to participate in normal
kid activities, then he shouldn't agree to them and then ditch because
if falls on his shift. (He usually agrees because he thinks...even
though he KNOWS better...that it will only fall during the week.)
If this is the attitude of NCPs, then no wonder why the standard model
is every other weekend. The kids need someone to let them know what
normal is.
--
karla
"It was time to stop playing games. It was time
to put on funny hats and eat ice cream" R.
ange...@my-dejanews.com
lsu...@removethis.teleport.andthis.com (Snickers) wrote:
> Susan wrote:
> > Lady Sundae wrote:
> > >
> > > I think I have to speak up here. My stepkids have had something
> > > planned on every weekend they have been with us for two years now.
> > > We are never consulted in advance. We are just told where we have
> > > to be if we want to see the children. We can never make plans to
> > > go anywhere or do anything. Everytime we do, we have to cancel.
> > > If we say that we would like to do something else, BioMom paints
> > > us out to be the bad guys. I can understand your ex's frustration.
> > > Have you tried to see it from his point of view?
> >
> >
> > She's tried. Maybe you haven't been around too long, but this lady has
> > bent over backwards, sideways and upside down to accommodate her ex.
>
> I have been a lurker and infrequent poster in alt.support.step-parents
> for over three years now. Maybe you are posting from the crossposted
> group and that is why you expect me to know her problem. It does not
> change my opinion in the least.
>
> > He
> > just refuses to accommodate the boys' schedules, which I personally find
> > very childish and selfish.
>
> Okay, put the shoe on the other foot. If you only had weekends with
> your children, how would you feel if someone demanded that you spend
> your time with them in a certain manner? If you think of it honestly,
> you will know that it wouldn't set well with you.
>
I am not your husband's former wife...please stop treating me and
reacting to me as if I were.
Some facts that have been stated and restated for you:
1. He has the children every weekend
2. He previously agreed to and has always been consulted on all
activities pertaining to the boys
3. He does not want to haul his butt across the city to take the
boys to activities HE PREVIOUSLY AGREED TO and, in some cases,
enrolled them in
4. I refuse to put a 6 year old in the middle of an adult fight
I'm sorry your step-kids bio-mom does those things to you. I find
it ridiculous that I HAVE to put into the divorce agreement:
"Mr. X will agree to take the children to religious services at
least twice a month or allow Mrs. X to pick them up, take them
to services and return the children to him after services are over."
and
"Mr. X will agree to honor all commitments to the childrens'
activities he has previously agreed to. This includes regular
attendance at karate and special events associated with karate,
boy scout and any other activities that may fall on the weekends.
Mrs. X will agree to consult with Mr. X before enrolling the
children in any activities that may fall on the weekend."
In other words: I ain't your husband's ex.
As for your argument that it's between the kids and the parent...well
you didn't listen to your step-son too well about his soccer jamboree
when he tried to propose a way to cover both now did you. You were
so angry at his mother for not notifying you on your schedule that you
totally shut down any other possibilities.
Being a parent (and a step parent) can be a great joy and a great
burden at the same time. My focus at this point is on what is best
for the kids. I'm not perfect and I'm not an expert...especially on
this whole step-parenting thing. There are a number of things that
I would do differently than my S/O and there are a number of things that
I tread *very* lightly on so that his kids aren't detesting me.
For the most part, I do all right. I like to quote Elaine Konigsburg
when it comes to these things: I knew I would make mistakes, I knew I
would be wonderful. I did and I was.
The problem isn't between him and the kids, it's between me and him.
We are the adults, not James and Micah. They are 9 and 6. I don't
say "yes" to everything they want but there are some things that I
feel are important to them developmentally. Karate is important to
the kids. I did not push it on them, they requested to study it. I
happen to like karate (yes, I had a crush on David Carradine back when
Kung Fu was a first run series...I admit it) and, because my children
encouraged me to follow one of my dreams, I am now studying it myself.
I happen to like baseball. (OK, so I *love* baseball...I really do think
that the rest of sports happen to keep us distracted until baseball season
begins.) I never pushed it on my kids. When James came home begging to
be on t-ball with his friends, it was the first group activity he wanted
to be a part of. I went so far as to call Little League of America to
find a loophole to the age rule so he could play with his friends and
classmates. I would do anything for my boys...they only get to be kids
once.
Thier dad is a musician. He has been whining (yes whining is the correct
word) about how the boys should take an instrument instead of karate. I
do not see the two as mutually exclusive. I have taught the boys some of
the basics of music. We sing together a lot and I sing to them constantly
(I am a trained contralto). I have taught them to identify certain stylings
of specific composers based on the music they love from the Disney movies
they see. (OK, let's listen to "Colors of the Wind" now I want you to listen
to these songs and tell me what sounds the same and then I'll play "Corner
of the Sky" from Pippin and "By My Side" from Godspell and teach them about
how Schwartz uses a specific progression in his ballads.) I have inquired
about instruments for James now that he is in fourth grade.
What has their dad done?
You guessed it...nothing. Mr. "I went to New England Conservatory of Music"
Mr. "I studied under this great person and that great person" Mr. "the boys
need to learn an instrument" has done NOTHING. He hasn't even taught them
a major scale.
Religion is another hot one for me. Mr. "Any children of mine are being
raised as Jews" does not take them to services, does not teach them about
their faith. Nothing. I have to threaten a legal action for him to take
the kids to religious services. I'm the one who is trying to encourage
James to learn Hebrew by learning with him. I am the one who makes sure
they say their prayers daily, know about little things like the tenets of
their faith, the traditions that go along with their faith, etc. I'm the
one that enrolled them in Hebrew school (which he takes them to so he can
have two hours of rehearsal time with one of his bands). They are on my
family membership to the Temple. I tell them Mishnah stories. I tell
them the wonderful little Hassidic tales about morality. I'm the one
raising them to know that being Jewish is something more than an accident
of birth.
Not bad for a lapsed Catholic and ordained minister. (Yes, I'm a practicing
Jew...it's a long story. Let's just say that I'm a pagan Jew with Christian
roots in need of a dye job.)
Not all bio-moms are evil controlling *itches. Life isn't ideal...if it
was, we wouldn't have gotten divorced in the first place. The point I am
making is maybe this world doesn't center around my kids, but dammit, it's
such a short window of time for them to be the center of the universe, why
would you deprive them of that.
The next time you want to take the kids on a trip or do something special
with them, why not call their mom and see if there's anything on the
calendar that weekend? Phones work two ways you know. Maybe if you had
called and said, "We're planning a special trip to the beach this weekend.
We wanted to make sure that there weren't any schedule conflicts, do any
of the kids have...." perhaps the Thursday call wouldn't have been
necessary or it would have given bio-mom enough time to say the
jamboree wasn't happening so that it wouldn't have been a battle.
--
karla
"It was time to stop playing games. It was time
to put on funny hats and eat ice cream"
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
Lady Sundae
: In article <lsundae-0109...@128.181.126.147>,
: lsu...@removethis.teleport.andthis.com (Snickers) wrote:
: I am not your husband's former wife...please stop treating me and
: reacting to me as if I were.
I am not treating you that way. Believe me, you would know. I
am trying to point out another point of view, one that you are
adamantly opposed to. That is your opinion. I have not flamed
you but you have made some far-fetched value judgments about
me.
: Some facts that have been stated and restated for you:
These facts were stated for me *after* my original post. Your rude
and condescending behavior points to some unresolved anger of
your own.
: 1. He has the children every weekend
By whose choice?
: 2. He previously agreed to and has always been consulted on all
: activities pertaining to the boys
I have since said that if he agreed, he needs to take them.
: 3. He does not want to haul his butt across the city to take the
: boys to activities HE PREVIOUSLY AGREED TO and, in some cases,
: enrolled them in
Then, he is being unfair. My position remains that if he was
not consulted, it would not be right to expect him to change
everything.
: 4. I refuse to put a 6 year old in the middle of an adult fight
A 6 year old can say to their father that they would really like
to go. It doesn't have to be a fight. Maybe he asks the 6 year
old if he wants to go and the child says no. Since we are not
privy to what happens, we can't judge.
: I'm sorry your step-kids bio-mom does those things to you. I find
: it ridiculous that I HAVE to put into the divorce agreement:
It is ridiculous that it has to be in there. It is ridiculous
that we need to amend ours to say: Mrs. X will get prior
approval from Mr. X for commitments that may interfere with
his visitation.
: In other words: I ain't your husband's ex.
I never said you were. I responded to your post with the
information I had at the time. Maybe your ex really is a
lazy pain in the butt. However, not all NCPs are and when
you are in the step-parent group, you are going to be talking
to a lot of step-parents whom are married to NCPs.
: As for your argument that it's between the kids and the parent...well
: you didn't listen to your step-son too well about his soccer jamboree
: when he tried to propose a way to cover both now did you. You were
: so angry at his mother for not notifying you on your schedule that you
: totally shut down any other possibilities.
There was no way to do both given the distance to the coast
and his soccer being the opposite direction. We have a right
to say no when we have other plans especially when we have
not been given any notice. You can't deny my husband the
right to say no when she exercises that same right.
: Being a parent (and a step parent) can be a great joy and a great
: burden at the same time. My focus at this point is on what is best
: for the kids. I'm not perfect and I'm not an expert...especially on
: this whole step-parenting thing. There are a number of things that
: I would do differently than my S/O and there are a number of things that
: I tread *very* lightly on so that his kids aren't detesting me.
For the most part, our children do go to everything. What we don't
like is having our right to say no questioned. The kids make over
90% of their commitments when they are with us. There are times
we say no and always get painted out to be bad. We are not
talking apples. We are talking appled and oranges. Your
situation is different than ours in that your ex gave prior
approval and made a commitment. We are never even given the
choice. You can see how that might rub us the wrong way.
: Not all bio-moms are evil controlling *itches. Life isn't ideal...if it
: was, we wouldn't have gotten divorced in the first place. The point I am
: making is maybe this world doesn't center around my kids, but dammit, it's
: such a short window of time for them to be the center of the universe, why
: would you deprive them of that.
I never said that all bio-moms were evil controlling *itches.
I am not depriving them of their center of the universe. We are
trying to teach them empathy and responsibility. Is it wrong
to teach children that they have to be aware of others needs
and wants? I don't think so. My parents raised me just fine
by teaching me responsibility and compassion for others.
I learned that I don't always get to do what I want because of
other commitments. We are trying to teach the children
something like that.
: The next time you want to take the kids on a trip or do something special
: with them, why not call their mom and see if there's anything on the
: calendar that weekend? Phones work two ways you know. Maybe if you had
: called and said, "We're planning a special trip to the beach this weekend.
: We wanted to make sure that there weren't any schedule conflicts, do any
: of the kids have...." perhaps the Thursday call wouldn't have been
: necessary or it would have given bio-mom enough time to say the
: jamboree wasn't happening so that it wouldn't have been a battle.
Let me put it to you this way since you seem so opposed to
believing that our time with the children should be controlled
by us:
I don't think we should have to call and ask to take the children
somewhere on our weekend. That is our time with them. If they
would talk to us before these things are scheduled, it would be
different. The child missed a non-essential soccer game so that
he could spend quality time with his dad at the beach. I think
that is more important and so does my husband.
You just refuse to look at this situation from our point of
view. You have choices where your children are concerned.
It is your choice to learn Hebrew, take them to karate
and other things. That choice is never ours and we do
resent it.
We have spent entire days running from one sporting event to
another leaving home before dawn and returning after dark.
My husband gets very little interaction with the children
on those days. So, if they *ocassionally* miss a soccer
game, it is not that big of a deal. We aren't talking them
missing every time they are with us. We are talking about
those times that we want to do something special. We shouldn't
have to get approval. You may choose to let your children
dictate your schedule. We choose to mostly follow theirs but
also have the right to say not this weekend. We should have
that right, don't you think? If you don't think so, then
you are being unrealistic. You may also need a different
visitation schedule as not all NCPs are lazy and worthless.
Louise
Snickers
<ellio...@email.msn.com> wrote:
> My point in all this is to point out that being the taxi for your kids is
> not always fun, even for parents who have the kids on school days. Most of
> the time it is the child who asks to do this or that, not the parent pushing
> it. Parents do it because they understand the benefit to letting the child
> shine. I wish more non-custodial parents would see it that way. I guess I
> just see it as part of the job of being a parent. Maybe you could explain
> why often non-custodial parents don't see it that way. Because, to tell you
> the truth, I don't understand it.
> They don't have to do any of this stuff during the week, so why is it such a
> big deal to do it once during the weekend for 2 months or so in the fall and
> spring.
I am not talking months here. This has been going on every single
weekend for over three years. We would like the option of planning
vacations and small trips with the children. If you were the NCP
who has been told *every* weekend for over three years how you will
spend your time with the children, you would be pretty damn resentful
now too. Last year, we cut short our vacation to come home early
for a soccer game that BioMom decided not to take him to. We aren't
talking short time commitments. It might be different if we were
consulted first, not after the fact. My husband has a right to
spend his time with his children the way he wants to. We don't
schedule events on *her* time ever and would never do it without
her prior permission. I can only imagine her outrage if we were
to call on Thursday before her weekend to tell her we had something
she had to take the children to.
Do you understand yet what the difference is? We take them to
almost everything. There have been times that we have said no
and she has made sure to tell the children we are mean and evil
because we exercised our parental right to say no.
Why do you see this as a problem?
> I can see your point that perhaps sometimes kids are overscheduled. Maybe
> the truth in all this lies in seeking a balance. You know the saying:
> anything to excess is not good.
We can't add balance when we are not consulted or informed. Brandon
had his last band concert in May this year. We only found out about
it because she called my husband's brother to invite them. We would
have never known had we not called his brother for something else.
Can you begin to see why we are beyond irritation in this matter?
> Isn't it sad that divorced parents can't have more communication about their
> children, even if they don't like each other. I know I wish it was the
> case for me.
We try. Paul has tried over and over again to get her to understand.
She starts yelling at him and cussing at him. She says we need to be
more involved with their lives but withholds the information that
would let that happen. We say that we deserve to know and to decide
what is more important in a weekend.
> I do think that there is no use worrying about things that are simply out of
> one's control. But is that all it becomes, a power struggle? How sad for
> the kids to be caught up in this.
They wouldn't be if they would accept no as no. Their mother
encourages them to keep whining about things. They are well
within their rights to plead their case. We listen and we have
made sacrifices. However, we have to right to plan other
activities especially when they have had a soccer schedule for
over a month and we still haven't seen it.
> On a personal note, my 12yo son is always unhappy if he misses a game (he
> plays soccar and baseball.) His Dad manages to get him there maybe 1/3
> the times he has him, which is every other weekend. Now that he is 12, he
> has asked me to come pick him up and take him to the games if his Dad won't.
> I promised to do that if I am not working that day. It's over an hour round
> trip-twice for me, but I will gladly do it. I have a feeling I won't have
> to, though, because his Dad just might decide to take him instead of having
> me show up.
We have tried to get mother to be more accomodating. The children tell
us when they *really* want or need to attend a game. We usually
get many complaints if we request that the least she can do is bring
him to our house if he is staying with her for an event we can't
make. You sound reasonable. Our biomom is not.
> One time last year he turned to me after sadly explaining that his Dad was
> too busy to take him and how his Dad complained about how far away it was,
> (not spending time with him, by the way, but working on the house), and
> said, "I know you would do it, Mom." If only his Dad could have seen his
> face and heard him say that, I think he would think twice about regarding it
> as a nuisance.
We don't regard it as a nuisance. We would just like to be consulted
first. We also make over 90% of their commitments. Why should we
have to fight when we occasionally have other plans? Why is it so
hard to understand why we don't like someone telling us how to spend
time with the children every single weekend for over three years?
Trust me. If your ex started scheduling things for your children on
your time without consulting you first, you would be just as upset
as we are. I am only trying to get you to see the other side of the
coin.
Louise
Merrie
I'm wondering how the rest of your relationship with your ex is.
It certainly seems like the ex has found a way to drive you nuts with
very little work involved on his part...
In fact, if the real goal is to have the children participate more,
then I think the best course of action is to let the kids pursue it and
for you to back off a bit. At least that way your ex won't be not
taking them because he resents your insistance. Court orders are
awfully hard to enforce and work better if people cooperate. Clearly,
he didn't sign those in spirit, and having to put them in indicates he
was reluctant to agree.
Personally, I think the best course of action as far as activites for
kids go, is for either parent to find out commitments required of an
activity, determine if they interfer with kid's other commitments
(visitation) and see if they can still participate given that their
visitation will interfer. If they can, sign them up, give the other
parent a schedule letting them know if they can make it then great and
if they can't you understand. If you're on pretty good terms I would
even ask the other parent what they think of the activity before signing
them up.
I think sports are great for kids, I think kids enjoy extra cirricular
activities but I think that visitation comes first. They don't have to
mutually exclusive - but sometimes they are.
Merrie
Snickers
> Snickers -
Hi Soccer StepMom.
> I have been in your shoes when we were NCP, and as a result we are
> *very* sensitive CPs. I have to say, your husband's ex sounds like a
> real extreme case. My sympathies and congratulations on adjusting your
> life to do the best by the kids.
Thank you. I ought to mention we have other mitigating circumstances.
I suffer from lupus and fibromyalgia. Many days I am in a lot of
pain but we go and do things with the children anyway. However, on
days that the pain is intolerable, my DH does not want to leave
me at home alone with no car for 8 hours. In those instances,
we just don't go. It makes the children angry.
> I hope Karla and others see the difference between the situation they
> are complaining of and yours. I also think that some CPs don't really
> understand how important it is for NCPs to have some autonomy in their
> time with the kids. It is easy to say that these activities are
> scheduled "for the good of the kids", but the kids have competing needs
> once divorce enters, and both parents have to work it out together with
> the kids.
In a married household, you do work responsibilities out together.
Somehow though, once divorce enters, the NCP rarely gets consulted
at least in our case. To have her go so far as to have the children
tell us what movie to take them to goes way outside the bounds of
what is reasonable and right. We don't take them to R rated movies
and we prescreen PG-13s. We aren't evil. We are a household with
rules that we expect to be followed. She has told the children I
am mean because, at 10 and 12 years old, I make them change their
underwear everyday, brush their teeth at least twice a day and
make the oldest put on deodorant and wash his face twice a day.
I think I am being reasonable.
> I also know that this can be hard on the parent who feels more strongly
> about adhering to the kids' schedules, because my husband is the one in
> that position. As NCP and as CP, he hates it when his ex skips soccer
> commitments. But she does. And she's a parent, so she gets a vote.
> All he can do is schedule around her as much as possible, and reinforce
> to the kids the importance of their commitment to their teams (I say
> this, because her excuse for skipping is often that the kid didn't want
> to go).
Now that is an entirely different set of circumstances. If the
child truly said he didn't want to go, I would be hard pressed to
make them participate. Of course, I am the one that tells someone
that once you commit to something, you need to be sure to see it
through. That is why the children rarely miss their games when
they are with us. I think I am most frustrated by the entire summer.
My husband saw his oldest child for 8 days the entire summer. 8
days! She had him signed up for stuff on all of our weekends.
When we would ask to switch, she would say she had stuff she
wanted to do with them. We have stuff we want to do with them
as well.
> Anyway, thanks for sharing. I always learn a lot from seeing how others
> deal with these nebulous issues. SSM
Thanks. I have to try hard to remember that not all step-situations
are as screwy as ours. My step-children think I am mean and evil.
They don't understand that if you go around being mean and rude to
someone, it is going to make it difficult to ask for anything.
Louise
Mary Jo Sterns
I have to disagree. Any activity that involves a registration process is a
commitment. Visitation, in my eyes, does not come first. Yes, there may be
some times when there is a conflict. I am sure we can all deal with it
reasonably. But if , for example, soccer is the activity. And the parent
who has custody during a game and or practice, does not see that as a
commitment that must be met.... I see that as a problem. You have just told
your child that his or her committment is not as important as the parent's.
And what a great lesson that child is learning about letting his or her
team down.
And how awful that a child is made to say to himself.. "gosh I sure want to
go to karate but I have to be with my Dad."
How incredibly selfish of that parent to not take the time to fit his or
her schedule with the child's committments.
We CP do it all the time... it is our life.
So Merrie as an example:
A 9 yo daughter wants and loves to play soccer. She plays house league and
all star. This means 1 game and 2 practices per week plus a tournament
every other weekend. Lets say her Dad is to have her every Wed each week
and every other weekend. Are you saying that the time with Dad wins over
the soccer, because the Dad thinks that the soccer is dumb and cant be
bothered to drive her to the tournament that weekend.? I think not.
MJ
janelaw
>
> > > <snipped all bits of prior posts>
out who said what. I'm not entirely sure who you are responding
to. I think it is Snickers. I'm going to try to respond one
more time then let this go.
It bothers me that your response is so angry. Nothing you say
about BD sounds awful to me. He's different from you. Some
people like organized sports, others like the beach. Some like
to hang out and veg during visitation, others like to cram a lot
of activities into the time. Some people like to instruct their
children about music and the bible; others like to watch
football and color. Sometimes people decide to give activities
like scouting and karate a try, then decide it is too much of a
pain in the butt (after all, this has been going on for years
since he agreed). If we persist in trying to change each other,
we torture our children. If we accept the differences, they can
enrich our children's lives.
People disagree a lot on the importance of church, competitive
sports, cultural pursuits, violent movies, chores, etc. Most
people agree that kids should have access to both parents. You
determine what the children do, watch, eat, drink, wear, and
read while they are with you. He decides these things while
they are with him. If an issue is important enough, you put it
in your parenting agreement. If you can't negotiate things out
later, you go back to family court with a motion. Otherwise,
it's each parent's call while they have the kids. If you
persist in waging this war about how the ex spends his time with
the kids, you will lose. What's important is that they have
time with their dad, not whether they are playing soccer or
nintendo.
Every single poster on this board has some experience with the
frustration you feel. But deep inside we know that this is the
consequence of our own choices. We are the ones who chose to
have these children and/or mate with these parents. We ALL wish
sometimes that we could change the way things went at the
"other" house. After all, if we didn't have any differences of
opinion with the exes, we would still be with them.
Venting about your frustration is fine, but if you do it in a
NG, you have to expect people to disagree with you. Several
people have taken the time to comment on your posts and attempt
to present a different point of view. Your last response sounds
a lot like a personal attack on Snickers.
janelaw
>
>
> So Merrie as an example:
> A 9 yo daughter wants and loves to play soccer. She plays house league and
> all star. This means 1 game and 2 practices per week plus a tournament
> every other weekend. Lets say her Dad is to have her every Wed each week
> and every other weekend. Are you saying that the time with Dad wins over
> the soccer, because the Dad thinks that the soccer is dumb and cant be
> bothered to drive her to the tournament that weekend.? I think not.
> MJ
Of course the time with dad wins. I just don't understand how
you can diminish the parental relationship like this. Let go of
one league. Schedule dad's visits on another night. Adjust
your schedule so that tournaments don't fall on the weekends she
is with him. Work with her coach.
I'm going to call my ex and tell him how lucky he is to have
me. Whatever my faults, I never felt my daughter needed soccer
more than she needed her dad.
Peter F. DeMos
> Dad needs to adjust his schedule to fit his daughters soccer schedule.
> Why should the daughter drop one of the leagues if she and the mom are able
> to commit to the schedule?
You can bet your sweet patootie, that were I to be a victim of one of
those "every other w/ends, one day in the week" schedules, my kids would
NOT be going to soccer, just cuz that lovely ex, who has custody about 80%
of the time, wants me to.
Let the witch work with me, not continue to punish me. Give me more time,
or I'll do what the heck I please with my children on the RARE days I'm
allowed uninterupted interaction.
peterd
--The original peterd. Accept no substitutes.--
http://www.peterd.com
Pugg
Snickers wrote in message ...
>>
>weekend for over three years.
Well, this does sound excessive. I don't blame you for being ticked off.
>Do you understand yet what the difference is? We take them to
>almost everything. There have been times that we have said no
>and she has made sure to tell the children we are mean and evil
>because we exercised our parental right to say no
That is just wrong. I try hard not to criticize my ex at all to my kid. I
just say to him that I'm sorry his Dad made that decision.
>
>We can't add balance when we are not consulted or informed. Brandon
>had his last band concert in May this year. We only found out about
>it because she called my husband's brother to invite them. We would
>have never known had we not called his brother for something else.
>Can you begin to see why we are beyond irritation in this matter?
Yes I definately can. This was also wrong. Louise, I can see that you are
dealing with someone who is being unreasonable. I have no qualms with what
you say when the situation is like you describe. It makes me thing my ex
should appreciate me more when I read about what some other non-custodial
Dads have to deal with :-)
Thanks for letting me see how this situation can go in the other direction,
the other side of the coin that you speak of.
Don't you wish we could all get along? Too bad there is so much
unreasonableness out there. Sometimes I think if people could possibly
listen to each other without all the emotional baggage from the failed
marriages, all these differences would be solved. I'll dream on.......
Maria
Pugg
Why do you say "witch"?
This is so derogatory and imflammatory. It sounds like you have A LOT of
anger.
Can I ask you to consider all those other "witches" out there when you
write?
Maria
Peter F. DeMos wrote in message <35EDF556...@peterd.com>...
Mary Jo Sterns
Why should the daughter drop one of the leagues if she and the mom are able
to commit to the schedule?
schedule, than you really dont get it.
But FYI.. this was all just hypothetical anyway!
MJ
janelaw <jan...@excite.com> wrote in article
<35EDD796...@excite.com>...
Pat Winstanley
writes
>I'm going to call my ex and tell him how lucky he is to have
>me. Whatever my faults, I never felt my daughter needed soccer
>more than she needed her dad.
Of course... Dad couldn't readjust *his* schedule to work round the
child's activities and obligations... same as most mums have to...
--
Pat Winstanley
Pat Winstanley
writes
>It bothers me that your response is so angry. Nothing you say
>about BD sounds awful to me. He's different from you. Some
>people like organized sports, others like the beach. Some like
>to hang out and veg during visitation, others like to cram a lot
>of activities into the time. Some people like to instruct their
>children about music and the bible; others like to watch
>football and color. Sometimes people decide to give activities
>like scouting and karate a try, then decide it is too much of a
>pain in the butt (after all, this has been going on for years
>since he agreed). If we persist in trying to change each other,
>we torture our children. If we accept the differences, they can
>enrich our children's lives.
The chap has the child with him, *every* weekend (which can be about as
much of a schoolchild's free time as the other working parent gets all
week). Why can't he devote one (or part of one) of those days each week
to the child's preferences and the other entirely to what *he* wants to
do with the child? Is that really so unfair?
It is always going to be possible to knock out the child's activity now
and again for the chap's sake and vice versa when something crops up
that covers the whole weekend (sports tournament, fishing trip,
whatever).
BTW, what do you folks do when the parent who is supposed to be caring
for the child on day x comes down with flu or whatever? Does the custody
resting with the responsible parent for that day take priority (and is
enforced) regardless of their temporary unfitness, or do you give and
take in such situations... even if it messes up what you had originally
planned...?
--
Pat Winstanley
SoccerStepMom
>
> No.. Dad needs to adjust his schedule to fit his daughters soccer schedule.
> Why should the daughter drop one of the leagues if she and the mom are able
> to commit to the schedule?
> If you think that a soccer tournament can be scheduled around one persons
> schedule, than you really dont get it.
> But FYI.. this was all just hypothetical anyway!
> MJ
MJ -
If both parents agreed that their child would undertake an outside
activity involving weekly practices and participation in special events,
then both parents are committed to seeing that the child keeps those
commitments.
But if only *one* parent wants the child to participate in an activity,
then s/he has to choose an activity that doesn't infringe on the
parenting time of the other parent. No matter how beneficial the
activity would be for the child. This is the kind of compromise that
divorced couples have to make in the joint parenting of their children.
It may be hypothetical for you, but you are describing our life, and the
lives of many of the women on the group this is cross-posted to
(step-parents, many of them married to NCP Dads). See how lucky you are
not to have to worry about a pesky ex-husband who has different ideas
from you about how his kid and he should spend their time together?
(Claws in)
SSM
PS, I must say, I'm enjoying the dialogue between the stepmoms and the
biomoms. I think I'll cross-post more often!
>
> janelaw <jan...@excite.com> wrote in article
> <35EDD796...@excite.com>...
> > Mary Jo Sterns wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > So Merrie as an example:
> > > A 9 yo daughter wants and loves to play soccer. She plays house league
> and
> > > all star. This means 1 game and 2 practices per week plus a tournament
> > > every other weekend. Lets say her Dad is to have her every Wed each
> week
> > > and every other weekend. Are you saying that the time with Dad wins
> over
> > > the soccer, because the Dad thinks that the soccer is dumb and cant be
> > > bothered to drive her to the tournament that weekend.? I think not.
> > > MJ
> >
> > Of course the time with dad wins. I just don't understand how
> > you can diminish the parental relationship like this. Let go of
> > one league. Schedule dad's visits on another night. Adjust
> > your schedule so that tournaments don't fall on the weekends she
> > is with him. Work with her coach.
> >
> > I'm going to call my ex and tell him how lucky he is to have
> > me. Whatever my faults, I never felt my daughter needed soccer
> > more than she needed her dad.
> > >
ange...@my-dejanews.com
janelaw <jan...@excite.com> wrote:
<snip my prior post>
> It bothers me that your response is so angry. Nothing you say
> about BD sounds awful to me.
Not honoring committments he made, stating one thing and then
acting in another manner, etc. are awful things in my book.
I have always believed that if you don't want to do something,
then don't. State that at the forefront and move on. Don't
say that you are going to do something and then not do it.
That is called passive-aggressive behavior and is something
that pushes a large number of buttons for me.
> He's different from you. Some
> people like organized sports, others like the beach. Some like
> to hang out and veg during visitation, others like to cram a lot
> of activities into the time. Some people like to instruct their
> children about music and the bible; others like to watch
> football and color. Sometimes people decide to give activities
> like scouting and karate a try, then decide it is too much of a
> pain in the butt (after all, this has been going on for years
> since he agreed). If we persist in trying to change each other,
> we torture our children. If we accept the differences, they can
> enrich our children's lives.
Yes he is different from me....that's part of why we are no longer
living together as man and wife. It isn't a case of one likes music
and the other doesn't. It's a man throwing a fit because his children
WILL be raised in this religion but then does nothing about it. Since,
as a Jew, one of the things that you are REQUIRED to do is teach your
children about G-d (the other two are teach your child a trade and
teach your child to swim). I'm not saying he needs to keep Kashrut
or where payos...just that he has to take them to religious services
a couple of times a month.
When you say "I want the boys to learn about music" and make a big
deal about your musical pedigree, don't complain if your former
partner signs the kids up for something you don't like because you've
complained for two years and did nothing in that time. (He doesn't
want James to take violin or trumpet...the two instruments that James
picked. My attitude at this point is tough cookies...you had two
years to get him started on something else.)
> People disagree a lot on the importance of church, competitive
> sports, cultural pursuits, violent movies, chores, etc. Most
> people agree that kids should have access to both parents. You
> determine what the children do, watch, eat, drink, wear, and
> read while they are with you. He decides these things while
> they are with him. If an issue is important enough, you put it
> in your parenting agreement. If you can't negotiate things out
> later, you go back to family court with a motion. Otherwise,
> it's each parent's call while they have the kids. If you
> persist in waging this war about how the ex spends his time with
> the kids, you will lose. What's important is that they have
> time with their dad, not whether they are playing soccer or
> nintendo.
Time with dad IS important. It's why he currently has every weekend
visitation. But part of being a parent is going to all those things
that you hate to support your kids. I could have done without standing
on the side of a t-ball field every Sunday morning from mid-April to
mid-June watching a kid swing 50 times at a stationary baseball before
hitting it and then running to the wrong base. I can do with out
kid recitals, lopsided baseball games, karate tournaments where you
child waits 45 minutes to do a 60 second form, etc. It is part of
being a parent.
If a quality activity is blown off for Saturday morning cartoons or
video games, then something needs to be reexamined.
<snip>
> Venting about your frustration is fine, but if you do it in a
> NG, you have to expect people to disagree with you. Several
> people have taken the time to comment on your posts and attempt
> to present a different point of view. Your last response sounds
> a lot like a personal attack on Snickers.
>
I did vent my frustration when this thread originally popped up
last July. I also was wondering how to react to something when
I started this thread and that was how do I protect my kids from
their dad's failings.
I have been attacked based on other bio-moms scheduling NCP time.
I tried to explain that sometimes you CAN'T HELP IT. Things happen
on weekends. You try and work around it but you do what is best
for the kids.
I feel attacked. Karin and K tell folks to go back and read up
on some facts before attacking me and I'm supposed to sit back
and not respond? That's not me. I have been attacked. I have
stated and restated my situation and now I'm the meanie.
*sheesh* Peter...I want to play with you again...I can't win for
losing here honey.
--
karla
"It was time to stop playing games. It was time
to put on funny hats and eat ice cream" R.
ange...@my-dejanews.com
Lady Sundae <lsu...@user1.teleport.com> wrote:
<snipping lots for bandwidth>
> These facts were stated for me *after* my original post. Your rude
> and condescending behavior points to some unresolved anger of
> your own.
facts were stated.
> : 1. He has the children every weekend
>
> By whose choice?
By my choice. I have full legal and physical custody because he
tends to be in denial about their medical needs. (ie leaving James'
inhalers purposely at home on a weekend trip because "lots of people
have asthma" and figured he could just "borrow" an inhaler if he
needed to.) I believe that the boys need a good relationship with
their dad. I believe that they should spend time with him. His
wake up call was me being awarded full custody because of his inability
to cope with certain realities. He has gotten much better but we
still have some issues on the subject. He also knows that their
safety comes first and if he should go back into denial about their
medical needs, he will only see them in supervised settings.
I will not sacrifice their health needs because he can't cope with
having two chronically ill children.
> : 2. He previously agreed to and has always been consulted on all
> : activities pertaining to the boys
>
<snip>
> : 4. I refuse to put a 6 year old in the middle of an adult fight
>
> A 6 year old can say to their father that they would really like
> to go. It doesn't have to be a fight. Maybe he asks the 6 year
> old if he wants to go and the child says no. Since we are not
> privy to what happens, we can't judge.
When a 6 year old is begging me to take him to services because his
dad won't...then it's clear that someone's not listening to someone.
Reality is the kids *want* to participate but he want's them to
himself.
> : Being a parent (and a step parent) can be a great joy and a great
> : burden at the same time. My focus at this point is on what is best
> : for the kids. I'm not perfect and I'm not an expert...especially on
> : this whole step-parenting thing. There are a number of things that
> : I would do differently than my S/O and there are a number of things that
> : I tread *very* lightly on so that his kids aren't detesting me.
>
> For the most part, our children do go to everything. What we don't
> like is having our right to say no questioned. The kids make over
> 90% of their commitments when they are with us. There are times
> we say no and always get painted out to be bad. We are not
> talking apples. We are talking appled and oranges. Your
> situation is different than ours in that your ex gave prior
> approval and made a commitment. We are never even given the
> choice. You can see how that might rub us the wrong way.
<snip>
> Let me put it to you this way since you seem so opposed to
> believing that our time with the children should be controlled
> by us:
>
> I don't think we should have to call and ask to take the children
> somewhere on our weekend. That is our time with them. If they
> would talk to us before these things are scheduled, it would be
> different. The child missed a non-essential soccer game so that
> he could spend quality time with his dad at the beach. I think
> that is more important and so does my husband.
And yet, knowing that there are constant weekend scheduling conflicts
that have prevented you from taking the kids on trips, etc. and are
depriving you of time with the kids...why not call? Why not try and
do everything possible to avoid that conflict so that everyone can
win? Would it really be so difficult? As someone who has done a
lot of customer service work and has had to argue with a lot of
management types, I find that it is far easier to suck up a little
and win than to go toe to toe and everyone loses.
I will go back to my example. No, you don't have to call with your
plans, however, you had a tense day with a stepson snarling at you
and believing you to be the meanest person on the planet. If all
of that could have been avoided by calling on Monday and saying, "We
were thinking of taking the kids to the beach for an end of the summer
blowout but, because there always seems to be something, we wanted
to make sure there isn't a conflict." At that point you would have
known a) there was a conflict and have worked from there or b) that
there wasn't a conflict so that when the soccer thing came up you
could honestly say "well, we committed to the beach since there was
no conflict. I'm sorry you'll have to miss soccer. You must be pretty
disappointed...."
> You just refuse to look at this situation from our point of
> view. You have choices where your children are concerned.
> It is your choice to learn Hebrew, take them to karate
> and other things. That choice is never ours and we do
> resent it.
Even if it may be what your kids need? Learning Hebrew, BTW is
a requirement, not an option. I would rather find a way for it
to be a special/enjoyable experience than a chore. I will not
allow my sons B'nai Mitzvot where they are chanting from rote
without understanding. That is a farce. A Bar/Bat Mitzvah is
a religious ceremony to be taken seriously, not an excuse for
some stupid overblown party.
Just as I would not allow my G-d son to be confirmed if he was
only doing it because he was "supposed" to. He already knows
that I will not sponsor him and I will intervene with the priest
(all the way up to the Cardinal, if I have to) if he cops the
"because I have to" attitude.
> We have spent entire days running from one sporting event to
> another leaving home before dawn and returning after dark.
> My husband gets very little interaction with the children
> on those days. So, if they *ocassionally* miss a soccer
> game, it is not that big of a deal. We aren't talking them
> missing every time they are with us. We are talking about
> those times that we want to do something special. We shouldn't
> have to get approval. You may choose to let your children
> dictate your schedule. We choose to mostly follow theirs but
> also have the right to say not this weekend. We should have
> that right, don't you think? If you don't think so, then
> you are being unrealistic. You may also need a different
> visitation schedule as not all NCPs are lazy and worthless.
You want to do special things...sometimes it takes special actions.
You're right, you don't *have* to go to every game, meet, lesson,
etc. Kids miss all the time for vacations, etc. HOWEVER what
is important is that you work out things before in a way that works
for all. That will show more responsibility as a model than anything.
I often suggest a book called _Between Parent and Child_ by Dr. Haim
Ginnot. If you haven't read it, pick it up. (Most libraries have it)
It might teach you a way to solve some of these problems without major
conflicts or battles. All those do is make the kids feel much worse
about the divorce and put a lot of pressure on the kids that they don't
need and shouldn't have.
Quite honestly, I'd rather have my kids too busy in scouting, sports and
other healthy activities than too busy with the wrong things.
> Louise
ange...@my-dejanews.com
> It bothers me that your response is so angry. Nothing you say
> about BD sounds awful to me.
Not honoring committments he made, stating one thing and then
acting in another manner, etc. are awful things in my book.
I have always believed that if you don't want to do something,
then don't. State that at the forefront and move on. Don't
say that you are going to do something and then not do it.
That is called passive-aggressive behavior and is something
that pushes a large number of buttons for me.
> He's different from you. Some
> people like organized sports, others like the beach. Some like
> to hang out and veg during visitation, others like to cram a lot
> of activities into the time. Some people like to instruct their
> children about music and the bible; others like to watch
> football and color. Sometimes people decide to give activities
> like scouting and karate a try, then decide it is too much of a
> pain in the butt (after all, this has been going on for years
> since he agreed). If we persist in trying to change each other,
> we torture our children. If we accept the differences, they can
> enrich our children's lives.
Yes he is different from me....that's part of why we are no longer
living together as man and wife. It isn't a case of one likes music
and the other doesn't. It's a man throwing a fit because his children
WILL be raised in this religion but then does nothing about it. Since,
as a Jew, one of the things that you are REQUIRED to do is teach your
children about G-d (the other two are teach your child a trade and
teach your child to swim). I'm not saying he needs to keep Kashrut
or where payos...just that he has to take them to religious services
a couple of times a month.
When you say "I want the boys to learn about music" and make a big
deal about your musical pedigree, don't complain if your former
partner signs the kids up for something you don't like because you've
complained for two years and did nothing in that time. (He doesn't
want James to take violin or trumpet...the two instruments that James
picked. My attitude at this point is tough cookies...you had two
years to get him started on something else.)
> People disagree a lot on the importance of church, competitive
> sports, cultural pursuits, violent movies, chores, etc. Most
> people agree that kids should have access to both parents. You
> determine what the children do, watch, eat, drink, wear, and
> read while they are with you. He decides these things while
> they are with him. If an issue is important enough, you put it
> in your parenting agreement. If you can't negotiate things out
> later, you go back to family court with a motion. Otherwise,
> it's each parent's call while they have the kids. If you
> persist in waging this war about how the ex spends his time with
> the kids, you will lose. What's important is that they have
> time with their dad, not whether they are playing soccer or
> nintendo.
Time with dad IS important. It's why he currently has every weekend
visitation. But part of being a parent is going to all those things
that you hate to support your kids. I could have done without standing
on the side of a t-ball field every Sunday morning from mid-April to
mid-June watching a kid swing 50 times at a stationary baseball before
hitting it and then running to the wrong base. I can do with out
kid recitals, lopsided baseball games, karate tournaments where you
child waits 45 minutes to do a 60 second form, etc. It is part of
being a parent.
If a quality activity is blown off for Saturday morning cartoons or
video games, then something needs to be reexamined.
<snip>
> Venting about your frustration is fine, but if you do it in a
> NG, you have to expect people to disagree with you. Several
> people have taken the time to comment on your posts and attempt
> to present a different point of view. Your last response sounds
> a lot like a personal attack on Snickers.
>
I did vent my frustration when this thread originally popped up
last July. I also was wondering how to react to something when
I started this thread and that was how do I protect my kids from
their dad's failings.
I have been attacked based on other bio-moms scheduling NCP time.
I tried to explain that sometimes you CAN'T HELP IT. Things happen
on weekends. You try and work around it but you do what is best
for the kids.
I feel attacked. Karin and K tell folks to go back and read up
on some facts before attacking me and I'm supposed to sit back
and not respond? That's not me. I have been attacked. I have
stated and restated my situation and now I'm the meanie.
*sheesh* Peter...I want to play with you again...I can't win for
losing here honey.
--
karla
"It was time to stop playing games. It was time
to put on funny hats and eat ice cream" R.
Mary Jo Sterns
Not the mother. In fact the mother would be quite happy with a less hectic
soccer sked. But if it is important to the child, why shouldnt both Mother
and Father arrange skeds for the child's activity? As K had mentioned
earlier, why should our kids suffer because their mom and dad dont live
together?
I know at times I do not want to share my time with my daughter ie go on an
outing and she wants to bring a friend for example. I just want to enjoy
her company. But that is me being selfish too. My daughter wants to enjoy
the company of her friends as well.
So I am hearing a similar thing here.. the parent is concerned about THEIR
time with the child and doing what THEY THE PARENT want to do. What our
children want to do must also be part of the equation. I am sure in some
cases, Dad being a part of the soccer tournament would mean alot more to
the child than you realize.
MJ
Peter F. DeMos <pet...@peterd.com> wrote in article
<35EDF556...@peterd.com>...
> MJ wrote, amongst other things:
>
> > Dad needs to adjust his schedule to fit his daughters soccer schedule.
> > Why should the daughter drop one of the leagues if she and the mom are
able
> > to commit to the schedule?
>
Mary Jo Sterns
I did jump in here a few posts ago with a " so just suppose" situation.
The soccer scenario is partially true life for me. My daughter did
participate in the 2 leagues this summer. And it was 1 game 2 practices a
week. The tournaments were 1 weekend per month. She had to try out for the
2nd league ( AllStar team). After 3 try outs I was not expecting her to be
picked. She wanted it badly and I was preparing for the disappointment. But
she got on the team. Yikes.. I said.. there goes my summer!
My point is that I have been amazed and partially horrified by the attitude
that some of you must suffer re visitation and the kid activities. I
understand the need for discussion as to who is doing what when and with
which parent. But I am saddened by the lack of compromise in some cases. I
would hope that any parent would jump at the chance to see/watch/ help out
with any activity their child was involved in.
So how did I spend my summer... learning about soccer! I am no saint.. but
I changed my schedule to fit the soccer stuff including our vacation out of
town, fitting it in between tournaments. Not complaining just stating the
facts. I could have said... no I do not have the time. But how fair would
that be to my sweet pea?
As you say , I am perhaps lucky not to have to worry about the visitation
discussions with an ex. I just think it should be so easy.. but of course I
realize that it isnt!
MJ
SoccerStepMom >>
Renee
bio-moms out there would *specifically* schedule lessons, leagues,
whatever for the SOLE purpose of messing with Dad's time.
I never would have thought people could treat their children that
way.... until I met the biomom from hell.
Renee :)
incognita
side? rather...is she the primary caregiver for your man's
child/children?...does she do all the hard work while you and hubby
take all the credit? does she put out MOST of the money while you and
the daddy put a little here...a little there?....just curious,
nita
=^..^=
some...@my-dejanews.com
ange...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <35EDD5B3...@excite.com>,
> janelaw <jan...@excite.com> wrote:
> <snip my prior post>
>
> > about BD sounds awful to me.
>
> acting in another manner, etc. are awful things in my book.
>
> I have always believed that if you don't want to do something,
> then don't. State that at the forefront and move on. Don't
> say that you are going to do something and then not do it.
> That is called passive-aggressive behavior and is something
> that pushes a large number of buttons for me.
You know what this sounds like to me, Karla? That your s2bx expects
to be the "traditional" father (by which I mean the model of a
generation or two ago where the mom stayed home and raised the children
and took care of making sure they had food and clothes and activities
and the dad mostly worked to provide the money). He wants the children to be
raised Jewish and to learn to play an instrument, but he expects that you,
the mom, will do the work. And you (IMO) expect him to be more of
an equal parent (after all, how can you do all the work when they're not
with you much of the time) and expect that he will do some of the work
to fulfill his requests.
My situation was of a husband who said he would be an equal partner but then
expected (perhaps unconsciously) that I would be a traditional mom and
do all the child care "work" even though I was also working outside the
home. Fortunately for all concerned, he DOES share
the load more as a divorced father than he did as a married one.
Have you ever explicitly told him that you interpret his requests this way?
That you believe that he will SHARE the load of carrying out his own
requests instead of leaving them all to you and expecting that they can
be fully done on your time alone? He may not even realize that this
is what he appears to be doing. Have you asked him what role he thinks
HE should play in continuing to ensure that his children are raised
as Jews and as musicians and whatever else he wants? When asked this
directly, does he think it should be all your job?
Good luck.
some...@my-dejanews.com
Pat Winstanley <pee...@NOSPAMpierless.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> BTW, what do you folks do when the parent who is supposed to be caring
> for the child on day x comes down with flu or whatever? Does the custody
> resting with the responsible parent for that day take priority (and is
> enforced) regardless of their temporary unfitness, or do you give and
> take in such situations... even if it messes up what you had originally
> planned...?
>
> --
> Pat Winstanley
In the last 5 years, I think this has come up 2-3 times. Once, my ex had the
flu and I took the children for an extra day. One time I felt ill at the end
of a work day and didn't feel I could cope with the children so I asked him
to take them that evening (he did; don't know if he had had other plans) and
we switched another evening that week so I had them when he would have. As
the kids get older, it is less necessary to change plans when a parent is
sick because the children don't need as much active care from the parent.
SoccerStepMom
I absolutely understand the soccer commitment scene, as my "handle"
might suggest. Both boys are now on "all-star" teams, and it is a big
part of their lives.
The difference is that both parents agreed to their making soccer a core
activity, not just one. And the parents live near each other, so the
presence of a soccer commitment does not ruin the whole weekend for the
NCP.
What I am reading here suggests that there needs to be a balance between
the kid's need for involvement in developmental activities and fairness
to the visitation schedule of a NCP who doesn't get to be with their kid
as much as they'd like. Everyone needs to give a little.
I will say that with respect to birthday parties, sleepovers, etc., that
decision should be entirely up to the parent whose weekend it is. And
my sense in reading these groups is that it is not: the CP often
schedules these activities and informs the NCP. This isn't fair. My
stepsons had to miss their cousin's birthday party recently because it
was on their Mom's weekend. I think she gave a lame reason why they
couldn't attend; I think she really just didn't want to accommodate
their Dad's sister. But I defend her right to make the decision.
SSM
SoccerStepMom
>
> Why do you say "witch"?
> This is so derogatory and imflammatory. It sounds like you have A LOT of
> anger.
> Can I ask you to consider all those other "witches" out there when you
> write?
>
> Maria
You sound like a very reasonable person. Imagine your ex-husband took
custody of your kids, and you had to pay him 40-50% of your net income
in CS and only got to see your kids 20% of the time, even though you
missed them desperately and wanted to see their faces eery day.
Wouldn't you feel like he was a "witch" if he additionally started
controlling the little 20% of time you had left?
Being a NCP who wants and is prepared to handle primary custody is a
terrible experience. If you are in that position because your ex left
*and* got your kids, it's even worse....
I know that being a CP whose ex has left them holding the bag for nearly
all parenting time and expense is also tough. And those "not-involved"
NCPs who complain about their ex's have no credibility in my book.
I just wanted to try to explain how it feels from the other side, the
"good" NCPs. SSM
SSM
>
> Peter F. DeMos wrote in message <35EDF556...@peterd.com>...
Julie
>
> But Peter, I am saying that this is something that the child wants to do.
> Not the mother. In fact the mother would be quite happy with a less hectic
> soccer sked. But if it is important to the child, why shouldnt both Mother
> and Father arrange skeds for the child's activity? As K had mentioned
> earlier, why should our kids suffer because their mom and dad dont live
> together?
> I know at times I do not want to share my time with my daughter ie go on an
> outing and she wants to bring a friend for example. I just want to enjoy
> her company. But that is me being selfish too. My daughter wants to enjoy
> the company of her friends as well.
> So I am hearing a similar thing here.. the parent is concerned about THEIR
> time with the child and doing what THEY THE PARENT want to do. What our
> children want to do must also be part of the equation. I am sure in some
> cases, Dad being a part of the soccer tournament would mean alot more to
> the child than you realize.
> MJ
>
> Peter F. DeMos <pet...@peterd.com> wrote in article
> > MJ wrote, amongst other things:
> >
> > > Dad needs to adjust his schedule to fit his daughters soccer schedule.
> > > Why should the daughter drop one of the leagues if she and the mom are
> able
> > > to commit to the schedule?
> >
> > You can bet your sweet patootie, that were I to be a victim of one of
> > those "every other w/ends, one day in the week" schedules, my kids would
> > NOT be going to soccer, just cuz that lovely ex, who has custody about
> 80%
> > of the time, wants me to.
> >
> > Let the witch work with me, not continue to punish me. Give me more time,
> > or I'll do what the heck I please with my children on the RARE days I'm
> > allowed uninterupted interaction.
> >
> > peterd
> > --The original peterd. Accept no substitutes.--
> > http://www.peterd.com
> >
JMO, but I trusted my ex enough to have a child with him. Just as I
don't appreciate someone arbitrarily deciding what I will do and when, I
don't think my ex would either. We disagree on enough things that
marriage was unmanageable; why would I expect that he will always agree
with me on what our son should do and when? Whether I agree or not, he
has the right to be the kind of father he chooses, and to manage his own
schedule according to his life and his priorities.
If it can be worked out, I think that's great. If not, *both* parents
have input here, not just the CP. And as far as saying "but that's what
the child wants"...that's too bad, but that's life. Where I live, we
don't always get what we want, so it's actually not a bad thing to learn
it before adult reality hits you in the face :-). I think a relationship
where both parents respect the others involvement is going to benefit
the child far more than a soccer game.
Julie
janelaw
> >me. Whatever my faults, I never felt my daughter needed soccer
> >more than she needed her dad.
>
>
> --
> Pat Winstanley
We don't have to. We choose to. And if the dads were telling
us that we had to, it would make us pretty resentful too.
SoccerStepMom
>
> lsu...@removethis.teleport.andthis.com (Snickers) writes
>
> [...]
>
> >We can't add balance when we are not consulted or informed. Brandon
> >had his last band concert in May this year. We only found out about
> >it because she called my husband's brother to invite them. We would
> >have never known had we not called his brother for something else.
> >Can you begin to see why we are beyond irritation in this matter?
>
>
> >activities especially when they have had a soccer schedule for
> >over a month and we still haven't seen it.
>
> Louise, I guess I have a question regarding these two remarks. (And I
> assure you, this is asked without accusation)
>
> Why is it that you expect biomom to tell you this stuff? Ours only tells
> us of doctors and such. When it comes to wrestling matches and school
> events and whatnot, we count on the kids to tell us. Is there some reason
> your kids can't provide you with their soccer schedule? When my parents
> were *married* they barely talked. I made it a point to tell my dad's
> secretary about any event I wanted him to attend. Why are your kids
> keeping you in the dark?
>
> -k.
How old are your kids? I can't count on our kids to tell us about
events in school, and they live in our house?!? We had a big stink with
the ex because younger son gave us a time for the class Xmas play that
was 1/2 hour later than actual. We passed that along to biomom, and she
missed it (so did Dad and I). She still screamed at Dad, but that's
just her.
Fact is, without info sent home in the school folders and soccer team
managers, we'd be in the dark. Ours are 8 and 11. Are/were yours
really on top of their schedules at that age???? SSM
janelaw
> >about BD sounds awful to me. He's different from you. Some
> >people like organized sports, others like the beach. Some like
> >to hang out and veg during visitation, others like to cram a lot
> >of activities into the time. Some people like to instruct their
> >children about music and the bible; others like to watch
> >football and color. Sometimes people decide to give activities
> >like scouting and karate a try, then decide it is too much of a
> >pain in the butt (after all, this has been going on for years
> >since he agreed). If we persist in trying to change each other,
> >we torture our children. If we accept the differences, they can
> >enrich our children's lives.
>
> much of a schoolchild's free time as the other working parent gets all
> week). Why can't he devote one (or part of one) of those days each week
> to the child's preferences and the other entirely to what *he* wants to
> do with the child? Is that really so unfair?
Yes, he CAN. Of course, he can. But why on earth should he
have to?
Yes, it is that unfair. The BD in the original post is being
berated for not allowing his entire visitation to be planned
ahead of time by BM. Granted BD has the kids for two days per
week. However, although he lives on the other side of town, he
is expected to spend his day driving the children to baseball,
hebrew lessons, religious services, scout meetings, the FOURTH
karate lesson of the week, and apparently, trumpet lessons.
Which day do you suggest he enjoy? He's not supposed to enjoy
either of them, that's the plan, because "...part of being a
parent is going to all those things that you hate to support
your kids."
This battle is not about letting the kids engage in an activity
they enjoy. BM states unequivocally that this is a battle
between her and the ex, "The problem isn't between him and the
kids, it's between me and him." She repeatedly states, "I
refuse to put a 6 year old in the middle of an adult fight."
IMO, the only reason there is any fight going on here is because
BM can't let go of her own issues with the ex. Left alone, the
children would work these issues out with their dad.
BM is still trying to force her irresponsible ex to grow up.
This theme recurs throughout her posts:
"I started this thread and that was how do I protect my kids
from
their dad's failings."
"That isn't fair and it isn't responsible adult behavior."
"Why should they have to act like the adult instead of their
NCP?"
"We are the adults, not James and Micah."
Meanwhile, BM repeatedly invalidates BD's choices regarding
"quality" time with his sons.
"If a quality activity is blown off for Saturday morning
cartoons or video games, then something needs to be reexamined."
"But when they aren't going because they're sitting at home
playing Nintendo...well, yeah, I have a REAL problem with that."
"Mr. "I went to New England Conservatory of Music"
Mr. "I studied under this great person and that great person"
Mr. "the boys
need to learn an instrument" has done NOTHING. He hasn't even
taught them
a major scale."
"Reality is the kids *want* to participate but he want's them
to
himself."
So what? Maybe it isn't her way or my way or your way, but
apparently BD feels closer to his sons watching cartoons and
playing Nintendo than he does teaching them hebrew and musical
construction. What's important here is that the children be
allowed to work out their relationship with their dad. He is
not the kind of person who enjoys or excels in a tightly
organized schedule of activities. The kids have as much right
to enjoy and/or reject his laid-back parenting style as they do
BM's dynamic one.
Commitment is a another huge issue for BM that comes up in every
one of her posts. She states, "One thing we need to teach our
kids is to commit. Especially since our marriages, one of the
biggest commitments we have made in our lives, have failed for
one reason or another." When BM says, "Not honoring committments
he made, stating one thing and then acting in another manner,
etc. are awful things in my book," I hear her continued anger
about BD's failure in his marriage to her. Because he failed to
keep his commitments within their marriage, she repeatedly adds
new "commitments" on him via the children's schedule.
He reluctantly agrees to these to avoid further fighting, then
blows it off when she is not there to yell at him. BM says,
"That is called passive-aggressive behavior and is something
that pushes a large number of buttons for me." That's who he
is; that's why she left him. There is no point carrying your
personal war with the ex into the separate co-parenting stage of
the children's lives. If BD has a problem with commitment, BM
needs to work around that, not repeatedly set him up for failure
to make him look bad in the children's eyes.
For some reason, BM needs this fight with the ex to keep going
on. She is still trying to prove that she was "right" in the
marriage and BD was "wrong." Despite his history of resistant
behavior, she continues to add new "commitments" to the
schedule. She refuses to let the kids work out their own
relationship with dad. She refuses to let the court decide what
is fair. It drives her crazy that she can't control this aspect
of her children's lives.
And she can't see that she is still trying to change the ex.
They are no longer a couple. She has to let it go. Her job now
is to help the children to see and learn from BD's good
qualities, not to keep harping on what she perceives to be his
failings.
>
> It is always going to be possible to knock out the child's activity now
> and again for the chap's sake and vice versa when something crops up
> that covers the whole weekend (sports tournament, fishing trip,
> whatever).
>
> BTW, what do you folks do when the parent who is supposed to be caring
> for the child on day x comes down with flu or whatever? Does the custody
> resting with the responsible parent for that day take priority (and is
> enforced) regardless of their temporary unfitness, or do you give and
> take in such situations... even if it messes up what you had originally
> planned...?
>
If it is at all possible, I accommodate the ex. Stuff comes up;
you roll with it.
> --
> Pat Winstanley
SoccerStepMom
- it put into words some vague notions I have about what may be going on
between my husband and his ex. Thanks, SSM
janelaw
Mary Jo Sterns wrote:
>
> No.. Dad needs to adjust his schedule to fit his daughters soccer schedule.
No, he doesn't. He doesn't need to do a damned thing. If the
daughter can convince him that soccer is important enough to her
life, then he may choose to. Otherwise, dad's responsibility as
a parent is to ensure that he spends quality time with his
daughter during visitation. This can be whatever activity he
considers valuable to his child or to their relationship. This
can be playing Nintendo. (I feel like such a heretic.)
Besides that, kids activities have to fit into their parents'
lives. This summer my daughter had to quit dance and karate,
and miss planned junior life guard and university in the park
programs because her dad's schedule changed. My SS missed half
a month of football training camp because DH's schedule
changed. When I broke my leg, I could not drive, and all the
kids had to give up anything they couldn't bike to. This is
life. The world does not and never will grant your children all
their wishes.
> Why should the daughter drop one of the leagues if she and the mom are able
> to commit to the schedule?
Because this is not her or her mom's decision. They cannot make
commitments for dad. While the child is with dad, HE decides
what extracurricular activities are important. He also can
change his mind. My ex takes my child to play golf. For most
of the year, my SS lives to play football. I would never choose
these activities. I like to camp, go to the beach, and explore
zoos and museums. If I had my child one school night per week,
then I would spend it going over her school work. Of course,
extracurricular activities are out of the question on school
nights at my house anyway.
> If you think that a soccer tournament can be scheduled around one persons
> schedule, than you really dont get it.
I have done the soccer thing, thank you very much. In fact, I
have also done the swim thing, the dive thing, the football
thing, the cheerleading thing, and the karate thing. I thank
god that we are currently doing the dance thing, because parents
are not allowed to stay and watch. I enjoy none of this. I
would never do it because my ex wanted me to. I do this for
love of my children.
> But FYI.. this was all just hypothetical anyway!
> MJ
>
> janelaw <jan...@excite.com> wrote in article
> <35EDD796...@excite.com>...
> > Mary Jo Sterns wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > So Merrie as an example:
> > > A 9 yo daughter wants and loves to play soccer. She plays house league
> and
> > > all star. This means 1 game and 2 practices per week plus a tournament
> > > every other weekend. Lets say her Dad is to have her every Wed each
> week
> > > and every other weekend. Are you saying that the time with Dad wins
> over
> > > the soccer, because the Dad thinks that the soccer is dumb and cant be
> > > bothered to drive her to the tournament that weekend.? I think not.
> > > MJ
> >
> > Of course the time with dad wins. I just don't understand how
> > you can diminish the parental relationship like this. Let go of
> > one league. Schedule dad's visits on another night. Adjust
> > your schedule so that tournaments don't fall on the weekends she
> > is with him. Work with her coach.
> >
> > I'm going to call my ex and tell him how lucky he is to have
> > me. Whatever my faults, I never felt my daughter needed soccer
> > more than she needed her dad.
> > >
Lady Sundae
: lsu...@removethis.teleport.andthis.com (Snickers) writes
: [...]
: >We can't add balance when we are not consulted or informed. Brandon
: >had his last band concert in May this year. We only found out about
: >it because she called my husband's brother to invite them. We would
: >have never known had we not called his brother for something else.
: >Can you begin to see why we are beyond irritation in this matter?
: [...]
: >activities especially when they have had a soccer schedule for
: >over a month and we still haven't seen it.
: Louise, I guess I have a question regarding these two remarks. (And I
: assure you, this is asked without accusation)
Thank you.
: Why is it that you expect biomom to tell you this stuff? Ours only tells
: us of doctors and such. When it comes to wrestling matches and school
: events and whatnot, we count on the kids to tell us. Is there some reason
: your kids can't provide you with their soccer schedule? When my parents
: were *married* they barely talked. I made it a point to tell my dad's
: secretary about any event I wanted him to attend. Why are your kids
: keeping you in the dark?
Fact is, we don't hear about doctors either. The kids could end
up in the hospital and we would never know. We have asked
repeatedly that someone, anyone, let us know what is going on.
The children can't ever remember. I guess I am used to my parents
being aware of everything in my life from the time I was
tiny. We don't know why the kids don't tell us. We have
asked and they always say that they "forgot." So when we don't
make it, they get upset. But we can't be there if we don't know.
And calling us at 6:00 on the same night for something that starts at 6:30
guarantess that we won't be there because of how far away
we live.
We have tried every possible solution. We are at our wits end
assuming we have any wits left at this point. :-)
Louise
http://www.teleport.com/~lsundae
-------------------------------------------------
May you be granted peace and tranquility as you travel down this road
called life. May the sun brighten each moment of your day and the stars
dance to the music your existance creates. And may you find at least once
in this life the love I have been blessed with twice.
Vicki Robinson
particular, just joining the discussion. It's interesting to see
these arguments (and I don't mean fights, I mean it in the "support
for a proposition" sense). I see both points of view, and appreciate
that they both have good reasons behind them. Neither view is
"right;" it seems to be a question of individual family values.
My own situation is that my ex has agreed to soccer for our daughter,
and we all attend games. Whoever has the kid on practice night gets
her to practice. If my daughters get invited to a party on their
dad's night, they have to call him for permission to attend. The only
problem that we have is that he lives about 13 miles from us and, when
they have an activity in our town on his weekend, he expects that I
will do half the driving so that he doesn't spend "the whole weekend
driving back and forth." This annoys the *%$#@ out of me; it's a 15
minute drive, not hours and hours, and I would *never* ask him to
drive the kids anywhere on my time unless there was a conflict or I
was ill. Never ever just because I don't feel like it. However, I
usually agree, for two reasons. One, I pick my fights, and when he
accuses me of being uncooperative, I can quite genuinely point out
where I have used my own time to make his life easier, when he could
easily have done the driving. Two, I also want my kids to participate
in the activities that they want, and think that when they make a
commitment, they should keep it if it's possible to do so. Dad not
wanting to drive an extra half hour round trip in a day isn't a good
reason to let their group down, so I do it.
I have never signed my kids up for an activity that would happen on my
ex's weekend without his consent, and he almost always says no when I
do ask. He would, however, be much more accommodating if I said that
I'd pick them up, take them to the activity, and then bring them back
to his house. It's not the time, it's the commitment that he doesn't
want.
My husband's ex always accepts party invitations and activity
commitments for her girls, even when it's my husband's weekend. (We
live 6 hours away, so their community is not ours.) Mostly, he
doesn't mind; he thinks the kids need their social life and their
scouting activities, and frequently we attend their scout field days
and plays and things when they're on his weekend. If one has a party
to go to, my husband looks at it as an opportunity for some one-on-one
time with his other daughter. Once he was "volunteered" to chaperone
an overnight camping trip with both of them and their scout troop! He
enjoyed it, though, and felt that he'd gotten an opportunity that he
wouldn't have had otherwise.
I'm not taking a side. I do think that cooperation between parents is
essential for best outcomes, and, again, mediation is always available
to help you sort out how the kids' commitments will be handled.
Vicki
--
Mediation and Alternative Dispute Resolution Resources:
http://www.rit.edu/~vjrnts/mediation/mediation.html
The alt.folklore.urban FAQ and archive can be found at
http://www.urbanlegends.com.
Dean Barker
>
> I think you all are neglecting the fact that many of those bitter
> bio-moms out there would *specifically* schedule lessons, leagues,
> whatever for the SOLE purpose of messing with Dad's time.
>
> I never would have thought people could treat their children that
> way.... until I met the biomom from hell.
>
> Renee :)
This goes both ways. Don't neglect the fact that many bitter
bio-dads *specifically* deny the children activities that they
want to do for the SOLE purpose of holding territory and not
allowing mom an inch. We experience this all the time.
I never thought people could be so selfish...until I met the
egotistical, self-centered father of my step-children.
If the kids want to participate in an activity, practice with
them, support them emotionally, go to their activities,
encourage them, be a *positive* influence in their lives. To
punish the kids because of a cold-war with the ex-spouse is
childish and irresponsibile.
-Dean :)
janelaw
>
> Are you in the mental health profession? I learned a lot from this post
> - it put into words some vague notions I have about what may be going on
> between my husband and his ex. Thanks, SSM
>
>
No, not at all. I'm just nuts.
I have some personal and professional experience with divorce
and separate co-parenting. Divorce is especially hard with
kids. People who have been hurt by their mates want to protect
their children from that pain. Also, to extract yourself from a
relationship, you focus on all the negatives to give yourself
the strength to survive losing all the positives. At the same
time, you have to make sure that the kids stay connected with
the good side. You know. You have to keep telling yourself that
he is an irresponsible spendthrift at the same time you are
reinforcing your children's view of him as a generous free
spirit. That kind of thing. Then, it takes such a herculean
effort to get out of a marriage, that some people stay caught up
in it after the divorce. The fight becomes such a huge part of
their lives that if they let go of it, then they will have
nothing.
I tell you, if my ex ever read my posts on this thread, he would
die laughing. We have been around this block a few times. I
have learned that the more I push, the less he does. Also, he
will do anything for his daughter, but nothing for me. It's
actually not such a bad deal.
Snickers
> If a quality activity is blown off for Saturday morning cartoons or
> video games, then something needs to be reexamined.
The quality of any given activity is very subjective. He might like
spending time with his child watching television. You can't make
value judgments on quality for your ex. Only he can do that.
I think you want him to conform to your ideas and he just isn't
going to change.
Louise
Snickers
> In article <35EDD796...@excite.com>, janelaw <jan...@excite.com>
> writes
> >I'm going to call my ex and tell him how lucky he is to have
> >me. Whatever my faults, I never felt my daughter needed soccer
> >more than she needed her dad.
>
> Of course... Dad couldn't readjust *his* schedule to work round the
> child's activities and obligations... same as most mums have to...
That's easy to say when you get to choose the obligations.
When that choice is no longer there, it paints a very different
picture.
You have to remember that some of us are posting from
alt.support.step-parents and we have a different viewpoint.
I don't know whose right and wrong because I don't think it
can be broken down like that.
I do feel children need time with both of their parents.
If my husband is only allowed to have his children 4 days
a month, it is not excessive or unreasonable to want to
plan our time with them.
Louise
Snickers
"Mary Jo Sterns" <mjst...@istar.ca> wrote:
> No.. Dad needs to adjust his schedule to fit his daughters soccer schedule.
> Why should the daughter drop one of the leagues if she and the mom are able
> to commit to the schedule?
Why would anyone commit to something without checking with one
of the affected individuals? We don't mind things falling on our
weekends if we have been given an option in advance. We say yes
or no and it stands. It is when we are not given the option that
causes the problem. It is not reasonable to make a commitment
for biodad without consulting with him first. If Dad is not
consulted, then he has every right not to fit his schedule to
the child's.
In a marriage, you wouldn't commit to something that would
require your husband's time without asking him, would you?
Why do it now?
Louise