SS Not Coming!
joyojoy
Nikki Murphy wrote in message <3850BEC0...@impactwp.com>...
>I've read everyone else's reply and I've got something to add.
>
Me too! All the responses here have pretty well covered this topic but
heres my 2 bob:
Parents need to show unconditional love to their children. In your case Pat
your SS has been testing his Dad. If dad did not send the usual gift Im
sure SS would get the message that Dad no longer loves him as much. My son
used to get great gifts from his Dad but when their relationship started to
faulter the gifts became cheaper and cheaper. This only made my son think
his Dad was loving him less and less.
The puberty years can be difficult. I dont know the full extent of your
situation with SS but I do think there is a lot to be said about providing
stability. If the boy plays up you still love him. You let him know you dont
like his behaviour but that you still love HIM. Once he realises that you (I
mean his Dad) will love him no matter what a lot of the behaviour problems
may be resolved.
Lots of luck.
Joyojoy
Boatinlady
I've got a new one for ya and hopefully you all can help me sort this out. My
mind is going BONKERS!!!!!!!! I'm sorry, in advance, if I sound like a bitch.
I've got to get this out!!!!!
Dh called ss (12 yrs old) last night, trying to arrange pickup. Once again, dh
was shot down. SS doesn't want to come over. OK, dh is dealing with it, badly
last night, but it will get better. It will be 10 weeks since we've seen him.
I'm not sure that dh should be giving ss the "option" to come over or not, but,
like some here, he has said that he doesn't want his son over if he doesn't
want to come. I have to accept dh's decisions, obviously. Our next
"scheduled" visit is Dec 24-26.
I'm in a quandry about what to do IF we see ss for Christmas. I mean, do we
go "all out" for Christmas presents for ss, just as if he's visited us for the
past 10 weeks? Do we act like nothing is wrong? IMHO, I believe that ss will
visit us for Christmas, for the sole reason to get presents.
We asked about ss's band concert, date and time. We were told that it was two
days previous to our asking!! We are probably at fault for not calling the
school to find out when it was, but then again, ss could have called us
too!!!!!
I'm feeling particularly nasty about this whole situation. The ONLY time we
hear from ss is when he wants us to buy something for a fund-raiser. He
otherwise never calls our home. I've tried to let it all go, but I'm also sick
of pretending that it's ok for ss to hurt my dh, then turn around and give him
gifts. We are totally ignored for 10 weeks, then we reward that behavior by
giving him gifts?
Game playing is not my forte', and never has been. I know this is not my
problem to deal with, but I also pay for the gifts. I feel like our importance
in ss's life is simply money. Nothing more.
This is what I would like to do, with dh's blessings, of course. I would like
to buy one gift for ss, and a card. Then, send the present and card to ss.
That way, he's remembered at Christmas, but yet, I don't feel like we've
boughten into the game once more.
Am I being too harsh?? Should we just buy the usual gifts for ss and put them
under the tree hoping that he comes over????
TIA,
Pat
Sian Lee Reid
boati...@aol.com (Boatinlady) wrote:
> This is what I would like to do, with dh's blessings, of course. I would like
> to buy one gift for ss, and a card. Then, send the present and card to ss.
> That way, he's remembered at Christmas, but yet, I don't feel like we've
> boughten into the game once more.
>
> Am I being too harsh?? Should we just buy the usual gifts for ss and put them
> under the tree hoping that he comes over????
>
Well, Pat... you know I'm in your boat too, and what you've described is
pretty much what we do. SS gets one small present from his little sister
(whose existence he has not deigned to acknowledge since she was 2), and I
do mean *small* here, in the $10 and under range, and one gift from his
father and myself. Last year, it was a joystick for the computer. This
year, it is likely to be a piece of strategy gaming software.
I tend to shop early, so the first year SS refused to come here (beginning
at the end of November) the Christmas shopping was already done. Because
we have a policy of 'if it's bought here, it stays here' and because we
thought the situation was likely to be temporary, we didn't know *what* to
do with the gifts. We toyed with returning them, but by Christmas time, a
lot of the store receipts were history. We toyed with giving them to
charity. Biomom had eight kinds of fit about 'why don't you think SS
should have his presents anyways' and eventually, we did just send them to
her house.
But that was the last year that he got 'gifts', in the same way we buy
gift for his siblings, and I seem to recall that I simply decided against
giving him the gift I had bought for him from *my* parents. SS doesn't
want to be a part of our family, and we respect that choice although we
neither agree with it nor like it. However, among the consequences of
that choice are that *we* choose to devote more of our resources to the
children who *do* want to be part of the family.
We would be darned suspicious if SS suddenly wanted to resume visitation
right before Christmas, and it probably wouldn't change our buying habits,
not that year, at any rate. If it were consistent for a year, sure, but
my mama didn't raise no dumb children...!
Sian
lilblakdog
news:19991209132213...@ng-bj1.aol.com...
> Am I being too harsh?? Should we just buy the usual gifts for ss and put
them
> under the tree hoping that he comes over????
My aunt has two grandsons. Her son was a single, CP and so she was more of
a mother to them than their own mother was.
One year at Christmas, one of them needed something and so--as well as the
usual gifts for both of them--she got one of them the "something" he needed.
When the other one complained about it, he got nothing the following year.
When he complained about *that*, they both got nothing the year after.
Did it teach them anything? Yeah...that holidays are a disappointment and
my aunt's a real bitch sometimes.
I'm not saying that you should go all out. But I don't think you should
tear it all down to one gift either, given in a completely impersonal way.
How would it be if you only got him one "luxury" gift and a couple of
practical ones? That way you're not so much spoiling him as providing for
him. And by all means, keep them under the tree until you're sure he's not
coming.
Another thing you could do is to buy him one or two small things and make a
donation in his name to some children's charity or something, giving him the
receipt. It might end up teaching him something far more valuable than that
poor behaviour means a cut-off from holidays.
But I feel for you, Pat...don't think that your reaction wouldn't have been
*my* first one!
lil
--
Who is at fault when a monster is a monster? Is it the monster? Or the
person who created it to be a monster?
Someone
saying that I have never been in a situation close to yours right now
but...
I think your idea (buying a gift and a card for SS) is probably the most
logical way to go.
Have you (or DH, really) tried talking to SS about how you feel regarding
the money factor?
Forcing a 12 year old to visit someone when they're set against it will do
more harm than good, but at the same time what a 12 year old perceives to
be healthy or good for them may not necessarily be the reality of the
situation either.
How far is SS from you? How feasible would it be to maybe get together
with SS for an afternoon, instead of a weekend or overnight?
Here's what I'm thinking. DH calls up SS and says he'd really like to see
him once before the Holidays, to go to the mall and get ideas for a
Christmas present. Just an afternoon. They're at the mall, and DH has a
chance to talk with him in the food court or while looking around in the
stores about his concerns about seeing him at Christmas, and that lately
he's getting the feeling that SS only wants him to be part of his life if
he gets something tangible out of it.
How would something like this go over? Teenagers tend to start avoiding
overnight activities that involve a parent just because their social life
is booming and they usually have "better things to do".
HTH
Boatinlady <boati...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19991209132213...@ng-bj1.aol.com>...
: Hi!!! It seems to be my week to rely on all of you for opinions, doesn't
it??
: I've got a new one for ya and hopefully you all can help me sort this
out. My
: mind is going BONKERS!!!!!!!! I'm sorry, in advance, if I sound like a
bitch.
: I've got to get this out!!!!!
:
: Dh called ss (12 yrs old) last night, trying to arrange pickup. Once
again, dh
: was shot down. SS doesn't want to come over. OK, dh is dealing with it,
:
: This is what I would like to do, with dh's blessings, of course. I would
like
: to buy one gift for ss, and a card. Then, send the present and card to
ss.
: That way, he's remembered at Christmas, but yet, I don't feel like we've
: boughten into the game once more.
:
: Am I being too harsh?? Should we just buy the usual gifts for ss and put
them
: under the tree hoping that he comes over????
:
: TIA,
:
: Pat
:
:
:
:
Melissa J. Ryan
>go "all out" for Christmas presents for ss, just as if he's visited us for
>the
>past 10 weeks? Do we act like nothing is wrong? IMHO, I believe that ss
>will
>visit us for Christmas, for the sole reason to get presents.
>
>We are totally ignored for 10 weeks, then we reward that behavior by
>giving him gifts?
>
Since when is gift giving a reward? I thought you gave a gift to someone
because you want to do something nice for them. Christmas gift are not
rewards.
Why don't you get him a few things that he would like and if he comes over
great. If not then send the gift anyway because the point should be to give
him a gift whether he comes over or not.
Love,
Melissa
ICQ# 30417882
It's not talk of God or the decade ahead that allows you to get through the
worst.
It's "I do" and "you do" and "nobody said that" and "Who brought the subject up
first?"
-Stephen Sondheim
Boatinlady
Melissa,
The above is not exactly what I meant! I apologize for not making myself
clearer!
I knew I was going to sound nasty when I posted. "Reward" was a poor choice of
words on my part.
I guess what I have a problem with is that we are expected to act as if nothing
is wrong. It doesn't matter that my ss chooses not to see his dad. He doesn't
have time to call his dad, because "he's too busy with his mom." This IS
wrong!!
I know that Christmas is for giving, and we will not withhold gifts from my ss.
He will either receive them at our home, or in the mail. I just wish I could
feel that he cared one iota for his dad and I. It would sure make buying his
gifts alot easier.
Thanks!
Pat
Sian Lee Reid
(Melissa J. Ryan) wrote:
> Since when is gift giving a reward? I thought you gave a gift to someone
> because you want to do something nice for them. Christmas gift are not
> rewards.
>
That's true, Melissa. But Christmas gifts are also not an entitlement. I
give gifts to those people whom it makes me feel good to give to. It does
not sound, in this situation, like giving SS a lot of gifts for Christmas
is going to make Pat and her husband happy; it is going to make them feel
manipulated and used.
A gift that is not given from the heart can be many things, but it is not
a gift.
Sian
Boatinlady
money factor?>>>
That is not a conversation that I would have with my ss. I would leave that
one up to dh, for sure!!
>How far is SS from you? How feasible would it be to maybe get together
>with SS for an afternoon, instead of a weekend or overnight?
>
SS lives about 10 minutes from us. Dh has done that in the past when ss didn't
come over. They both got together and went to McDonald's or something, they
would talk, then dh took him home.
>Dh says.......lately he's getting the feeling that SS only wants him to be
part of his life if he gets something tangible out of it.>>
That's an idea. I will bring it up to dh and see what he says!
>Teenagers tend to start avoiding
>overnight activities that involve a parent just because their social life is
booming and they usually have "better things to do".
>>>
My kids did the same thing!! As they got older (14-15 age range) their social
lives were way more important. We DO know that my ss spends alot of time
babysitting his younger brother and sister on the weekends.
Thanks!!!!
Pat
Someone
think day-outings are a great alternative if he's unwilling to visit
overnight.
Boatinlady <boati...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19991209152851...@ng-fp1.aol.com>...
: >Have you (or DH, really) tried talking to SS about how you feel
:
Anne Robotti
>
> Since when is gift giving a reward? I thought you gave a gift to someone
> because you want to do something nice for them. Christmas gift are not
> rewards.
>
Well, isn't the point that the way the kid's acting, Pat doesn't want
to waste her time and money doing something nice for him?!
> Why don't you get him a few things that he would like and if he comes over
> great. If not then send the gift anyway because the point should be to give
> him a gift whether he comes over or not.
>
Pat, this is one of those situations I would opt out of. If DH wants
the boy to get a gift, let him go buy one. SS isnt' acknowledging your
existance anyway, you wouldn't find *me* wasting my time and money
at the mall picking out gifts!
Anne
Anne Robotti
Anne
Melissa J. Ryan
>give gifts to those people whom it makes me feel good to give to. It does
>not sound, in this situation, like giving SS a lot of gifts for Christmas
>is going to make Pat and her husband happy; it is going to make them feel
>manipulated and used.
I'm sorry but I have to disagree here. Aren't you supposed to give gifts that
make the other person feel good? I didn't know you gave a gift to someone else
to make yourself feel good. To me that just doesn't make sense.
I remember SD's period of refusing to come over and how it hurt both SO and I
deeply. I remember how when she did come over what a rude, moody brat she
could be. At the time I thought she was a horrid kid but it turned out that
she was going through a lot emotionally. She was 12 years old with a lot of
stuff to deal with and a lot of confusion about who she was and who the people
around her were.
Pat's SS is surely going through a very difficult time right now. For some
reason he must feel like he doesn't belong in Pat and her DH's family and
probably not because Pat and DH have done anything but because 12 is a very
confusing age. Not giving him gifts is only going to make him feel more
alienated. It's also a punishment and you can't punish kids for their
feelings, only when they express them in a destructive mannor.
Anne Robotti
was going through a lot. But really, it sounds like Pat's SS is just
using them for the gifts. I'm not sure that really comes under the
heading of "going through stuff."
Anne
jane lawrence
>
> >Since when is gift giving a reward?>>>
>
I agree with Melissa's post.
I also think you're getting a little too caught up in this. I
think it's a mistake to get into other people's relationships
too much. DH is a big boy. He's the father here. The kid and
his dad have issues they need to work out. Of course you don't
like to see DH hurt. But it's really none of your business.
jane
Newsgroups
Sarai
does'nt DH buy the gifts instead of Pat? It's his son, and its not like he
has to buy out the whole store or anything, why not something small to at
least show that he is thinking of him on Christmas? I'm not saying the
son's behavior is acceptable, but still, should'nt his father love him no
matter what, and for goodness sakes its CHRISTMAS! Is using Christmas as a
punishment a good idea? Im just wondering, please don't grind me into the
pavement everybody!
Heather :)
Melissa J. Ryan wrote in message
<19991209221706...@ng-ck1.aol.com>...
>Sian,
>I think I need to explain myself here. I had a father who used gifts to
get me
>to see him and took them away to punish me. Christmas had to be earned.
Hey
>if my dad wanted me and it wasn't his time on Christmas it was OK. He just
>wouldn't give my brother or I anything. Even if we had no control over
where
>we went for the holidays. If you wanted a gift then you played by Daddy's
>rules.
>
>Well you know what Mac (my biobrother) and I did? We told him there was
>nothing we could do and if he wanted to be that way we didn't want his
gift.
>Gifts were not supposed to be rewards and punishments and if that's how he
saw
>them then it wasn't really a gift but a bribe.
>
>My mother made us buy Christmas presents for my father every year because
"he's
>family and you don't treat family badly even if they do it to you." I was
>raised with that mentality and I suppose that I will always be that way.
>
>I think that it would be a nice gesture for Pat and her Dh to buy SS
presents.
>It's a way of saying "Hey things aren't going smoothly right now but we
still
>love you and would like to work this out."
joyojoy
>But somewhere along the line, the wrong message has been sent if
>'unconditional love' is measured in stuff, hasn't it?
>
>Sian
>(beginning to wonder just why she feels so strongly invested in this
thread...!)
I do get your point Sian but my point is from the childs point of view. A
child or a young adult for that matter does not have this profound
understanding that you mention. If the child has always recieved a a nice
present then he is surely going to feel bad if this changes. He needs to see
the unconditional love in this form. When things are delicate between a
parent and child 'stuff' really matters.
joyojoy
Sian Lee Reid
<rob...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> In fact, in this case, wouldn't it come more under the heading of "bribe"?
>
> Anne
>
That would be one of those many things, yes. :)
Others include social obligation, guilt reduction mechanism, status
ploy... the list is nearly endless of all the things that aren't a
'gift'...
Sian
Sian Lee Reid
(Melissa J. Ryan) wrote:
> > I
> >give gifts to those people whom it makes me feel good to give to. It does
> >not sound, in this situation, like giving SS a lot of gifts for Christmas
> >is going to make Pat and her husband happy; it is going to make them feel
> >manipulated and used.
>
> I'm sorry but I have to disagree here. Aren't you supposed to give gifts that
> make the other person feel good? I didn't know you gave a gift to
someone else
> to make yourself feel good. To me that just doesn't make sense.
>
That's okay Melissa, I don't mind when people disagree with me. Helps me
to clarify my thinking. Let's see if I can put this a little differently.
Gifts should make the other person feel good. Most people put a lot of
time and energy into picking out gifts that will make someone else happy.
Why do they do that? Because they'll look bad if they don't? Because
otherwise someone might think they're cheap or inconsiderate? Because
it's that time of year again?
Well, maybe. But I don't.
I am an inveterate gift giver. If I see something that obviously needs to
belong to someone I know, I buy it and give it to them. If I'm *really*
disciplined, I might be able to save it until they're down and need
cheering up, or for a birthday if it's *really* soon, but often, I buy
things just because I know it will make someone smile. And it feels
really good to do that. So when I give gifts, they give joy twice over.
I think that it's Merrie who often says, when it comes to childrearing, if
it feels wrong, it probably is.
It is not going to give Pat any joy to go out shopping for her stepson,
and therefore, I don't think she should do it. Her DH may *want* to
shop. It may give him *some* sense of connection with his son to do
that. But they need to go with what they are comfortable with, or it
becomes an empty ritual, and not an act of love.
I'm not sure that's any clearer, but it's too late for coffee...
Sian
Someone
If I give a gift, I give it because it gives me pleasure to see that person
get pleasure from receiving the gift. They appreciate it.
In Pat's case, like Anne said, it does sound like SS is using them on some
level for the gift/money factor. If that's what he bases his relationship
with his father and stepmother on, then how much pleasure will there be in
knowing that's why he's liking the gifts and that they won't be
appreciated?
Did that make sense?
I cannot give a gift if the feeling isn't there. Do some people have to
earn the right to get gifts? Maybe. I am not out there donating gifts to
families that will trash them or who don't really need them, or who don't
appreciate them. I do it because it makes me feel good to give to people
who need it and appreciate it.
Why would I give to someone who can't appreciate it? Who does that serve?
To what purpose?
I'm sooooo done with doing things that I know I'll feel resentful about
later on.
: I'm sorry but I have to disagree here. Aren't you supposed to give gifts
Sian Lee Reid
<som...@somewhere.com> wrote:
> I don't know if this is going to make sense but...
>
> If I give a gift, I give it because it gives me pleasure to see that person
> get pleasure from receiving the gift. They appreciate it.
>
> In Pat's case, like Anne said, it does sound like SS is using them on some
> level for the gift/money factor. If that's what he bases his relationship
> with his father and stepmother on, then how much pleasure will there be in
> knowing that's why he's liking the gifts and that they won't be
> appreciated?
>
> Did that make sense?
>
> I cannot give a gift if the feeling isn't there. Do some people have to
> earn the right to get gifts? Maybe. I am not out there donating gifts to
> families that will trash them or who don't really need them, or who don't
> appreciate them. I do it because it makes me feel good to give to people
> who need it and appreciate it.
>
> Why would I give to someone who can't appreciate it? Who does that serve?
> To what purpose?
>
> I'm sooooo done with doing things that I know I'll feel resentful about
> later on.
>
Thanks Someone. I think you did a better job than I did. :)
Sian
Someone
I guess we've covered it from every angle then!
Sian Lee Reid <slr...@alfred.carleton.ca> wrote in article
<slreid-0912...@192.0.2.1>...
: In article <01bf42ac$932755e0$1fd7...@pc.vaxxine.com>, "Someone"
:
Melissa J. Ryan
Nikki Murphy
You guys pretty much know that something behind the reason why your SS isn't seeing
your DH at the moment is to do with what's going on at BM's house. You've got no
idea what she's telling him, and while you have such little influence in his life,
what she is saying (which may be very negative) will be really getting to him.
I think that not buying a present will just reinforce to SS whatever his BM is
saying to him about DH. 'Your Dad doesn't care' etc. Tell DH to buy the boy a
present, keep it at yours to try and get him to your house over Christmas - and
send it if not. Either way if he gets something (particularly if it's something
spot on that he really likes) it's going to make him think for a minute at least
that his Dad does care and does pay attention! Perhaps part of the present could be
DH writing a letter telling his son how much he loves him, how sad he is they
aren't seeing one another much at the moment, and asking what he can do to make
their relationship better. Might turn out to be SS's best present.
Sometimes not giving a present sends a louder message than giving one - and it
won't be positive.
Good luck
Nikki
Boatinlady wrote:
> Hi!!! It seems to be my week to rely on all of you for opinions, doesn't it??
> I've got a new one for ya and hopefully you all can help me sort this out. My
> mind is going BONKERS!!!!!!!! I'm sorry, in advance, if I sound like a bitch.
> I've got to get this out!!!!!
>
> Dh called ss (12 yrs old) last night, trying to arrange pickup. Once again, dh
> was shot down. SS doesn't want to come over. OK, dh is dealing with it, badly
> last night, but it will get better. It will be 10 weeks since we've seen him.
> I'm not sure that dh should be giving ss the "option" to come over or not, but,
> like some here, he has said that he doesn't want his son over if he doesn't
> want to come. I have to accept dh's decisions, obviously. Our next
> "scheduled" visit is Dec 24-26.
>
> I'm in a quandry about what to do IF we see ss for Christmas. I mean, do we
> go "all out" for Christmas presents for ss, just as if he's visited us for the
> past 10 weeks? Do we act like nothing is wrong? IMHO, I believe that ss will
> visit us for Christmas, for the sole reason to get presents.
>
> We asked about ss's band concert, date and time. We were told that it was two
> days previous to our asking!! We are probably at fault for not calling the
> school to find out when it was, but then again, ss could have called us
> too!!!!!
>
> I'm feeling particularly nasty about this whole situation. The ONLY time we
> hear from ss is when he wants us to buy something for a fund-raiser. He
> otherwise never calls our home. I've tried to let it all go, but I'm also sick
> of pretending that it's ok for ss to hurt my dh, then turn around and give him
> gifts. We are totally ignored for 10 weeks, then we reward that behavior by
> giving him gifts?
>
Kevin
'giving' that aren't giving at all.
Kevin
--
Forget love, I'd rather fall in chocolate.
Kevin
Ryan says...
> Sian,
> I think I need to explain myself here. I had a father who used gifts to get me
> to see him and took them away to punish me. Christmas had to be earned. Hey
> if my dad wanted me and it wasn't his time on Christmas it was OK. He just
> wouldn't give my brother or I anything. Even if we had no control over where
> we went for the holidays. If you wanted a gift then you played by Daddy's
> rules.
>
> Well you know what Mac (my biobrother) and I did? We told him there was
> nothing we could do and if he wanted to be that way we didn't want his gift.
> Gifts were not supposed to be rewards and punishments and if that's how he saw
> them then it wasn't really a gift but a bribe.
>
> My mother made us buy Christmas presents for my father every year because "he's
> family and you don't treat family badly even if they do it to you." I was
> raised with that mentality and I suppose that I will always be that way.
OK, I've got a question around this, In this situation Melissa, you were
being 'made' to buy something for your Dad as a matter of principle. Now
I'm guessing from what you said that you didn't really want to do that.
So turning it around, if I imagine this from your Dad's perspective - for
'x' number of years he's received a gift from you, I can imagine him
believing that things are (at least passably) OK between the two of you
...
What I'm saying is that, if things were not OK between me and my
daughter, or anybody else for that matter, I would want to know, and not
be given a gift 'out of duty'. To me it's like putting 'family' above
honesty, and the result is that you end up with a kind of 'pretend'
connection to each other.
I know there's probably lots of other factors in the whole dynamic, but
what you said got me thinking somewhat.
Of course this scenario is a little different from the OP's which was
about giving gifts in the other direction i.e. adult to child. It's a
tough one, because I can see more than one layer to the implications of
giving v. not giving.
Kevin
which makes for a different perspective on the gift giving to the SS for
the OP.
> I think that it would be a nice gesture for Pat and her Dh to buy SS presents.
> It's a way of saying "Hey things aren't going smoothly right now but we still
> love you and would like to work this out."
>
>
> Love,
> Melissa
> ICQ# 30417882
>
> It's not talk of God or the decade ahead that allows you to get through the
> worst.
> It's "I do" and "you do" and "nobody said that" and "Who brought the subject up
> first?"
> -Stephen Sondheim
>
>
--
Sian Lee Reid
<ni...@impactwp.com> wrote:
> Sometimes not giving a present sends a louder message than giving one - and it
> won't be positive.
>
I don't think anyone, even me, despite how it must have sounded some of
the time, is suggesting that no presents be given at all. I think what it
at issue here is the *amount* of presents. We buy my non-visiting stepson
2 gifts at Christmas each year; a small one from his sister, and a larger
one from his Dad and myself.
*If* we had the same sort of relationship with him that we have with his
sister (my SD) who visits here, he's likely have 10 or 12 packages of
various sizes, the same way she does. Some would be clothes for here.
Some would be little things like milky pens. But he's *not* here, and the
relationship *isn't* the same, and so we don't do it.
Pat's issue is not whether or not to buy one or two gifts, that's a
given. It's whether to buy 10 or 12, as I understand it.
Sian
Sian Lee Reid
(Melissa J. Ryan) wrote:
> Sian,
> I think I need to explain myself here. I had a father who used gifts to
get me
> to see him and took them away to punish me. Christmas had to be earned. Hey
> if my dad wanted me and it wasn't his time on Christmas it was OK. He just
> wouldn't give my brother or I anything. Even if we had no control over where
> we went for the holidays. If you wanted a gift then you played by Daddy's
> rules.
That is manipulative, inexcusable, and one of the many ways in which gifts
are not gifts. Personally, I'd likely *still* be carrying around a lot of
hostility about that one...
>
> Well you know what Mac (my biobrother) and I did? We told him there was
> nothing we could do and if he wanted to be that way we didn't want his gift.
> Gifts were not supposed to be rewards and punishments and if that's how he saw
> them then it wasn't really a gift but a bribe.
Precisely.
>
> My mother made us buy Christmas presents for my father every year
because "he's
> family and you don't treat family badly even if they do it to you." I was
> raised with that mentality and I suppose that I will always be that way.
And I have a lot of sympathy for that mentality. It doesn't sound that
way, I know, but I do. I try to treat others in the way I would wish to
be treated in their shoes. And you know what... I wouldn't want people
buying me gifts because they felt they had to. So in your situation, I
think I would have ended up resenting my mom AND my dad.
>
> I think that it would be a nice gesture for Pat and her Dh to buy SS
presents.
> It's a way of saying "Hey things aren't going smoothly right now but we still
> love you and would like to work this out."
Which is a lovely sentiment, and something they may wish to write in the
card. I just hope the response they get isn't 'Is this all I get?'
Sian
Sian Lee Reid
<joy...@primus.com.au> wrote:
> Nikki Murphy wrote in message <3850BEC0...@impactwp.com>...
> >I've read everyone else's reply and I've got something to add.
> >
>
> Me too! All the responses here have pretty well covered this topic but
> heres my 2 bob:
>
> Parents need to show unconditional love to their children. In your case Pat
> your SS has been testing his Dad. If dad did not send the usual gift Im
> sure SS would get the message that Dad no longer loves him as much. My son
> used to get great gifts from his Dad but when their relationship started to
> faulter the gifts became cheaper and cheaper. This only made my son think
> his Dad was loving him less and less.
Someone
: OK, I've got a question around this, In this situation Melissa, you were
: being 'made' to buy something for your Dad as a matter of principle. Now
: I'm guessing from what you said that you didn't really want to do that.
: So turning it around, if I imagine this from your Dad's perspective
Or from Pat and her DH's perspective...it's the same thing. Doing
something when the heart is not in it is not necessarily a healthy thing
IMO.
- for
: 'x' number of years he's received a gift from you, I can imagine him
: believing that things are (at least passably) OK between the two of you
: ...
:
: What I'm saying is that, if things were not OK between me and my
: daughter, or anybody else for that matter, I would want to know, and not
: be given a gift 'out of duty'. To me it's like putting 'family' above
: honesty, and the result is that you end up with a kind of 'pretend'
: connection to each other.
:
: I know there's probably lots of other factors in the whole dynamic, but
: what you said got me thinking somewhat.
:
: Of course this scenario is a little different from the OP's which was
: about giving gifts in the other direction i.e. adult to child. It's a
: tough one, because I can see more than one layer to the implications of
: giving v. not giving.
:
: Kevin
:
: which makes for a different perspective on the gift giving to the SS for
: the OP.
: > I think that it would be a nice gesture for Pat and her Dh to buy SS
presents.
: > It's a way of saying "Hey things aren't going smoothly right now but we
still
: > love you and would like to work this out."
: >
: >
: > Love,
:
Nikki Murphy
thought Pat was discussing no present at all?
Anyway - I agree with you regarding quantity. One of the only reasons that spending
the same on each sibling even is an issue is because they are usually both there to
see it and make comparisons!
We definitely spend far more on my SS who lives with us than my SD who doesn't. But
then we know him far better and so he's easier to buy for! We also know what he's
got and what he hasn't got which is impossible with SD as she gets stuff constantly.
I am also far more motivated to buy him more stuff because of the emotional
relationship that exists.
Nikki
Someone
is about the gifts to so many people. You're right Sian, that if someone
measure another's love for them from how many presents they have, there's a
problem there deeper than the gift-giving act.
I personally would be in deep shit, too, because I am a bad shopper, and I
never have any money!
: Sian
:
Boatinlady
mistake to get into other people's relationships
>too much. DH is a big boy. He's the father here. The kid and his dad have
issues they need to work out. Of course you don't like to see DH hurt. But
it's really none of your business.
>
Jane,
Thanks for the reality check! I know everything you said is true. There is
nothing I can do except let it go and let dh handle it.
It IS hard to see dh hurt. But, it's his problem and I know that.
I just have to accept whatever dh decides, and be ok with it.
Thanks Jane!!!!
Pat
Boatinlady
gift.
>
Sian,
It becomes an obligation. Not one that is a cheerful given gift, that is for
sure.
Pat
jane lawrence
> > I think I need to explain myself here. I had a father who used gifts to get me
> > to see him and took them away to punish me. Christmas had to be earned. Hey
> > if my dad wanted me and it wasn't his time on Christmas it was OK. He just
> > wouldn't give my brother or I anything. Even if we had no control over where
> > we went for the holidays. If you wanted a gift then you played by Daddy's
> > rules.
> >
> > nothing we could do and if he wanted to be that way we didn't want his gift.
> > Gifts were not supposed to be rewards and punishments and if that's how he saw
> > them then it wasn't really a gift but a bribe.
> >
> > family and you don't treat family badly even if they do it to you." I was
> > raised with that mentality and I suppose that I will always be that way.
>
> being 'made' to buy something for your Dad as a matter of principle. Now
> I'm guessing from what you said that you didn't really want to do that.
> 'x' number of years he's received a gift from you, I can imagine him
> believing that things are (at least passably) OK between the two of you
> ...
>
> What I'm saying is that, if things were not OK between me and my
> daughter, or anybody else for that matter, I would want to know, and not
> be given a gift 'out of duty'. To me it's like putting 'family' above
> honesty, and the result is that you end up with a kind of 'pretend'
> connection to each other.
I'm with heather on this one. You've got 24/7/365 to let
someone know there are problems in a relationship. Choosing
xmas gifts as a way of demonstrating dissatisfaction is
inappropriate.
I feel a tirade coming on.
I think xmas presents are an obligation, a social chore. This
is not the time to let people know what you really think about
them or to teach kids a lesson. It's the time to be nice. If
you don't like the recipient, or if you're angry with them, you
still give them a gift you hope they will enjoy. There's no
room for negative "from the heart" feelings here. You can go
all out and get the perfect gift, or you can get something
unexceptionable and mundane. Then you wrap it up nicely, smile
when you offer it, and say, "You're welcome."
And another thing, being a bridesmaid is not a god-damned
honor. It's a pain in the ass. THAT is something that is done
as a gesture from the heart, for people whom you love deeply.
jane
Sian Lee Reid
> I think xmas presents are an obligation, a social chore. This
> is not the time to let people know what you really think about
> them or to teach kids a lesson. It's the time to be nice. If
> you don't like the recipient, or if you're angry with them, you
> still give them a gift you hope they will enjoy. There's no
> room for negative "from the heart" feelings here. You can go
> all out and get the perfect gift, or you can get something
> unexceptionable and mundane. Then you wrap it up nicely, smile
> when you offer it, and say, "You're welcome."
>
No middle ground for us on this one, I guess!
Sian
(who should point out, in all honesty, that she has such a brutal lack of
respect for many social conventions that she doesn't have a whole lot of
friends!)
Melissa J. Ryan
>think I would have ended up resenting my mom AND my dad.
>>
Why on earth would I resent my mother? Her lesson was very important to both
me and my brother. She believed that no one was completely bad and even when
you were in a rough spot you should still treat your family and friends like
they mean something to you.
I cannot stand SO's brother and his wife. I mean I keep hoping they'll move to
Siberia or something but they are part of SO's family. They do have their good
points like taking care of SO's mother when she was dying and taking care of
SO's father now. When we pick out a gift for them I try to think of their good
qualities and not their bad. I do the same for my father. The holidays are
the time of year to forget about differences and look for the good in people.
Boatinlady
to get a gift, let him go buy one. SS isnt' acknowledging your existance
anyway, you wouldn't find *me* wasting my time and money
>at the mall picking out gifts!>>>
Anne,
That's exactly what I'm doing. Backing out of this. It's up to dh whether or
not ss gets gifts, how many and how much.
Much better for my FRIED brain too!!!!!!!!
Pat
Boatinlady
It's whether to buy 10 or 12, as I understand it.>>>
Thanks Sian,
That's exactly what the issue is. IOW, should ss get the same amount of gifts,
and what do we do if he doesn't come over to our home to get them???
It's worked out. Whatever dh wants to do, will be done.
Thanks!!!!
Pat
jane lawrence
>
> >
> Why, Jane! You _are_ a little conventional around the edges after all! ;)
>
Where does it come from, anyway? You'd think I was channelling
Emily Post.
I don't know if it's hitting 40 or what. The older I get, the
more I see the value in NOT being honest. Sometimes it seems as
though that social facade we put up is all that makes dealings
with people tolerable. Especially around the holidays.
I think Kevin and I are moving in different directions on this.
I'm not trying to become more honest with people. I'm really
very honest. I'm trying to figure out when people are *asking*
me to be honest. I'm working on being sensitive to people's
need for me to just shut up. Applying the Golden Rule, I figure
no one wants me to be honest if I'm mad at them at xmas time.
All I want is for everyone to ride lightly over the rough
spots.
Is this making any sense? Tracey?
jane
Sarai
Sian Lee Reid wrote in message ...
>> I think I need to explain myself here. I had a father who used gifts to
>get me
>> to see him and took them away to punish me. Christmas had to be earned.
Hey
>> if my dad wanted me and it wasn't his time on Christmas it was OK. He
just
>> wouldn't give my brother or I anything. Even if we had no control over
where
>> we went for the holidays. If you wanted a gift then you played by
Daddy's
>> rules.
>
>are not gifts. Personally, I'd likely *still* be carrying around a lot of
>hostility about that one...
>>
>> nothing we could do and if he wanted to be that way we didn't want his
gift.
>> Gifts were not supposed to be rewards and punishments and if that's how
he saw
>> them then it wasn't really a gift but a bribe.
>
>>
>> My mother made us buy Christmas presents for my father every year
>because "he's
>> family and you don't treat family badly even if they do it to you." I
was
>> raised with that mentality and I suppose that I will always be that way.
>
>way, I know, but I do. I try to treat others in the way I would wish to
>be treated in their shoes. And you know what... I wouldn't want people
>think I would have ended up resenting my mom AND my dad.
>>
>presents.
>> It's a way of saying "Hey things aren't going smoothly right now but we
still
>> love you and would like to work this out."
>
>card. I just hope the response they get isn't 'Is this all I get?'
>
>Sian
OK, I'm tip-toeing in here carefully again, but I have to say, is'nt that
just kids? I mean, come on, it christmas, get your kids gifts, YOU don't
have to lavish him with 10 packages, but let his dad do it. It's his kid.
When he is'nt a child anymore, then quit. I just tend to think that showing
someone you care, even when they don't give a damn always plants a "seed" in
their minds. Sometimes it grows, sometimes it does'nt, but sometime down
the road, the ss will become an adult, grow up, and say "geez, i was such a
butt-hole teenager towards my dad and his wife, but my dad always thought
about me, no matter how shitty I was." Gifts don't have to conitinue into
the sk's adulthood, but at least give the teen time to grow. He's learning
to cope with feelings. He's an ass. He's selfish. Hell, I'm only 22 and I
know I was pretty damn selfish when I was 17. I did'nt give a shit about
anybody but myself, but on special occasions, my parents always did the BEST
they could for me, even if I did'nt appreciate it. Do I have guilt? Hell
yes. Every damn day I thank god for the parents that never gave up on me
through my troubled teen years, and did'nt shit on me because I had trouble
coping with the switch that accompanies teenager-to-adulthood.
:-D Heather
Sarai
jane lawrence wrote in message <38512BBC...@excite.com>...
>Kevin wrote:
>>
>> In article <19991209221706...@ng-ck1.aol.com>, Melissa J.
>> Ryan says...
>> > Sian,
>> > I think I need to explain myself here. I had a father who used gifts
to get me
>> > to see him and took them away to punish me. Christmas had to be
earned. Hey
>> > if my dad wanted me and it wasn't his time on Christmas it was OK. He
just
>> > wouldn't give my brother or I anything. Even if we had no control over
where
>> > we went for the holidays. If you wanted a gift then you played by
Daddy's
>> > rules.
>> >
>> > Well you know what Mac (my biobrother) and I did? We told him there
was
>> > nothing we could do and if he wanted to be that way we didn't want his
gift.
>> > Gifts were not supposed to be rewards and punishments and if that's how
he saw
>> > them then it wasn't really a gift but a bribe.
>> >
>> > My mother made us buy Christmas presents for my father every year
because "he's
>> > family and you don't treat family badly even if they do it to you." I
was
>> > raised with that mentality and I suppose that I will always be that
way.
>>
>> OK, I've got a question around this, In this situation Melissa, you were
>> being 'made' to buy something for your Dad as a matter of principle. Now
>> I'm guessing from what you said that you didn't really want to do that.
>> So turning it around, if I imagine this from your Dad's perspective - for
>> 'x' number of years he's received a gift from you, I can imagine him
>> believing that things are (at least passably) OK between the two of you
>> ...
>>
>> What I'm saying is that, if things were not OK between me and my
>> daughter, or anybody else for that matter, I would want to know, and not
>> be given a gift 'out of duty'. To me it's like putting 'family' above
>> honesty, and the result is that you end up with a kind of 'pretend'
>> connection to each other.
>
>I'm with heather on this one. You've got 24/7/365 to let
>someone know there are problems in a relationship. Choosing
>xmas gifts as a way of demonstrating dissatisfaction is
>inappropriate.
This is another *very* good point that I did not think of. Jane, do you
give therapy by any chance? lol
>I feel a tirade coming on.
>
>I think xmas presents are an obligation, a social chore. This
>is not the time to let people know what you really think about
>them or to teach kids a lesson. It's the time to be nice. If
>you don't like the recipient, or if you're angry with them, you
>still give them a gift you hope they will enjoy. There's no
>room for negative "from the heart" feelings here. You can go
>all out and get the perfect gift, or you can get something
>unexceptionable and mundane. Then you wrap it up nicely, smile
>when you offer it, and say, "You're welcome."
>
Melissa Torresan
wrote:
>But somewhere along the line, the wrong message has been sent if
>'unconditional love' is measured in stuff, hasn't it?
Yes, I think you're right, Sian. I think the whole problem that
everyone is missing is pretty simple. I don't know how good I am going
to be at explaining it, tho. The best way might be just to tell you
what happened in my house when I was little, and what I've carried
through to this house now.
When I was a little girl, all presents came from Santa. There was no
"This one's from Mum & Dad" or "This one's from your sister" and
because we were so little, we didn't get them presents. Until the day
that Santa was debunked, that was the way things were in our house. Do
you sort of get what I am trying to say? Nobody in the family took
*credit* for the presents.
I've got a heap of stuff here for SK and for Nephew. Neither SO or I
are taking any credit for it. The credit is the smiles on their faces
when Santa brings them great stuff. Telling a child "I bought that for
you" is ok for all the other days of the year, and I've done a fair
bit of that today. But on Xmas day, there will be NO "Mel bought me
this" there will only be "Santa brought me this" - adults will know
that SO and I really bought it, and the kids will know that Santa is
great person who gives presents to people he sees once a year for no
other reason than to make them happy.
After I found out that Santa did not exist, Xmas went downhill. We
started giving each other money - or for the last few years, we don't
buy presents for the adults. Full stop. Because you might buy
something for them, and they might not get anything for you, and
that's really embarrassing. But the major reason is, Xmas is for the
kids. I don't care if I get nothing but the smiles.. :) My sister and
I have decided not to get presents for each other this year, because
we're going to spend some time together on holiday, and to me that's
much more important than any gift she could buy me.
I have no advice for Pat, because I do not know how I would handle
this situation. Given that he is still a kid, I'd still do the gifts,
but I'd make damn sure he knew they were staying at Dad's.. SK is 6,
and we've talked to him about the presents staying here this weekend,
and he seems to get it. Surely that 12 year old will understand. Might
sound harsh, but maybe it will induce him to spend time with his
father - something he will really regret NOT doing in later life.
Mel :)
>Sian
>(beginning to wonder just why she feels so strongly invested in this thread...!)
---------------------------------------------------
Melissa Torresan
sm...@crosswinds.net
"I am serious, and don't call me Shirley!"
---------------------------------------------------
Bree
Boatinlady wrote
> We asked about ss's band concert, date and time. We were
> told that it was two days previous to our asking!! We are
> probably at fault for not calling the school to find out when it
> was, but then again, ss could have called us too!!!!!
BM would not provide information regarding school functions
to BF. He went to school office with joint custody aggrement
in hand and got one of their calendars. It lists the dates of
progress report/ report card issuance, parent teacher
conferences, and school activities for the entire year.
--
Bree
a=seabreeze
b=adelphia
lilblakdog
>After I found out that Santa did not exist, Xmas went downhill. We
>started giving each other money - or for the last few years, we don't
>buy presents for the adults. Full stop. Because you might buy
>something for them, and they might not get anything for you, and
>that's really embarrassing. But the major reason is, Xmas is for the
>kids.
Ack! Where did this bit of propaganda come from??? :-)
My BIL and his wife are like this--don't worry about us, Christmas is for
the children. In my family, on Christmas, we *are* children!
We don't worry about buying lots of expensive things for each other, no. My
mission is to buy my brothers and my mom something they'll really
love--something that will put magic into their eyes, the same way it does
with the kids. I don't think you can ever be too old for that.
One year, my gift to my little brother was to adopt an owl, in his name, at
a local sanctuary that specialized in birds of prey. It cost me $20 and
gave him nothing but a slip of paper with a picture of an owl on it, but he
was more excited with that gift than any other I've ever bought him (well,
okay...he's going to be blown away with the "breast" mannequin I'm getting
him this year! :-).
Christmas for my older brothers was always an extreme disappointment. You
all know that we were...um...borderline "poor" growing up, and we also had a
bastard for a father. For my oldest brother, Christmas memories were being
told that he shouldn't get anything this year because he never did <fill in
the blank>. He never knew whether to expect a Christmas or not. For my
middle brother, Christmas meant that our next door neighbors on either side
(who had boys his age) would get all the things that they (and he) wanted,
while he got an inexpensive puzzle or game or something equally
unimpressive. I know--that's his fault for thinking that way because *I*
certainly never did, but that's how things were. He was in the unfortunate
position of having best friends who were either rich or spoiled or both.
The first year I did stockings for my family, my brothers were 17, 24 and
27. I cannot even begin to describe the way their faces lit up when they
saw them. It's a memory that I will always cherish--being able to give them
something magical for Christmas. For the very first time, they were getting
that childhood Christmas that all their friends got--complete with matching,
personalized stockings. And it's not stereos, or laser disks, or Rolex
watches. It's a $5 toy here and a $4 gadget there. This year I'm going to
buy them each owl pellets and the first person to build a mouse is going to
win (for anyone who doesn't know, owl's eat rodents whole and then spit out
a perfectly formed block of fur and bones--science classes often use them
for disection and you can generally build a whole mouse skeleton from
one)...do you have *any* idea how big a thrill that's going to give them?
It's going to be mouse central in the dining room and they're going to love
every minute of it. From a $3 owl pellet. Every inch of that stocking,
every year, is a surprise. And even though they're now 25, 32 and 35 (and
my mom, at 57), every Christmas morning is magic and everyone is a child.
Do you know what I mean?
lil
---
"Who is at fault when a monster is a monster? Is it the monster's? Or the
person who created it to be a monster?"
jane lawrence
>
>
> Do you know what I mean?
Yes, and I think it's sweet. I'm not sure that the owl pellets
would make the same hit here, but you have inspired me to be
more creative. So far all I've got for DH's stocking is a spice
sauce for turkey with an injector.
jane
Tracey
Yes, Jane? Are you asking me because I'm the densest member
of the group and if it passes the 'Tracey Test', then you're making
sense? <grin>
--
Tracey
--
In dog years.....I'd be dead.
Tracey
>more I see the value in NOT being honest. Sometimes it seems as
>though that social facade we put up is all that makes dealings
>with people tolerable. Especially around the holidays.
Well, I'm not that far behind you on hitting 40 (a year and a half
to go) and I can see what you're saying to a point. For me, I don't
know if I want to 'go there' as far as being honest with my stepkids.
Because if *I* do, then *they* will and I'm not sure if that will do
*any* of us any good. There are things/areas where I try to be
honest to a fault. There are others where I'm just not going to be.
I mean, really, what purpose would it serve to tell my parents the
*real* reason why I'll probably never make a serious effort to be
at their house for Thanksgiving again. None, other than to piss them
off and start a huge fight that really isn't going to change anything.
It won't change *my* decision and it won't change what *they*
did. I'll just let it go and make other plans for my holidays.
>I think Kevin and I are moving in different directions on this.
>I'm not trying to become more honest with people. I'm really
>very honest. I'm trying to figure out when people are *asking*
>me to be honest.
That's a good thing to do, IMO. Some people don't *want*
the truth and to give it to them when they don't want it is....
something. Sorry, I've been shopping on-line a bit and I've
lost my vocabulary I think with all the pointing and clicking.
>I'm working on being sensitive to people's need for me to
>just shut up. Applying the Golden Rule, I figure no one
>wants me to be honest if I'm mad at them at xmas time.
>All I want is for everyone to ride lightly over the rough
>spots.
I guess that makes sense. I've never really associated holiday
gift-giving with the attitudes of people around me though. I
think that my parents and family and friends all had such fluc-
tuating financial statuses that what was given during the holi-
days had much more to due with the amount of funds avail-
able and not whether someone was mad at you or not. But,
at the same time, I look at my distant relationship with my
stepkids and I see how it affects my desire to give them
gifts. I'm very much a 'Oh, that's just perfect! They'd love
that!' person when it comes to gift buying/giving. I guess
the way that I look at it is this: If I can't walk through a
mall and see two or three things that I *know* a person
would like, then I obviously don't know them well at all
and what the HELL am I doing buying them a gift?
Someone else mentioned having a deeper emotional tie
to one of their stepkids than the other and that made it
easier and more enjoyable to buy for them. I'm with them.
I don't view gift-giving as a 'social obligation.' I refuse to
send wedding presents to people I barely know (or, even
worse, the *kids* of people I barely know), graduation
gifts are given very rarely (gotta buy two in the next month
though for my friends who got their AA in art and related
studies and a BS in nursing), and gifts for the mailman/etc.
ain't gonna happen when there is no regular mailman here
in this area. My family? No one had any money this year
so they said no gifts, but I sent everyone a gift from Swiss
Colony anyway just because I wanted to.
Do I feel obligated to buy presents for my stepkids? No,
not at all. If my husband would ask me to pick up X, Y
and Z while I was out shopping, would I? Yes, I would.
But, I feel in no way obligated to drive myself crazy trying
to figure out what these kids would like.
lilblakdog
jane lawrence wrote in message <3852D05F...@excite.com>...
>So far all I've got for DH's stocking is a spice
>sauce for turkey with an injector.
<grin>
Actually, you're two up on me, though...I haven't started buying *anything*
for DH's stocking yet! I'll have to start looking when I get paid on
Wednesday. He's always so difficult!
And the problem with not knowing how to drive is that he's always with me
whenever I'm shopping and see the perfect thing!
Kevin
> Sian Lee Reid wrote:
> >
>
> > >
> > Why, Jane! You _are_ a little conventional around the edges after all! ;)
> >
> Where does it come from, anyway? You'd think I was channelling
> Emily Post.
>
> more I see the value in NOT being honest. Sometimes it seems as
> though that social facade we put up is all that makes dealings
> with people tolerable. Especially around the holidays.
>
> I'm not trying to become more honest with people. I'm really
> very honest. I'm trying to figure out when people are *asking*
> need for me to just shut up. Applying the Golden Rule, I figure
> no one wants me to be honest if I'm mad at them at xmas time.
> All I want is for everyone to ride lightly over the rough
> spots.
>
>
>
Yes, actually it is making sense.
I've been thinking about this for a bit, as I'm seeing that being
'honest' can become a fixed pattern - it can take up a lot of energy and
effort which you'd rather spend elsewhere. That's fair enough, and
particularly so where the energy required would probably result in no
change that would help anyone in any way.
Perhaps where there is a problem is where one's manner of 'gift giving'
is part of a general pattern of suppressing one's own voice, and in so
doing leaves matters unresolved where they actually could be resolved -
and where it would be beneficial for all concerned for them to be
resolved. But that doesn't have to be threshed out at Christmas time...
The other thing I thought is that continuous suppressing of your own
needs can be an unconscious pattern, and painful to wake up. That goes
equally for the person who is the receiver - they may not be capable or
willing to wake up to how you feel.
In a way, I'm completely happy to sit on the fence on this one. FWIW, I
tend to not give gifts unless I really feel moved to do so. I'll give
them at any time of the year, and Christmas has at times passed without
me getting anything for anyone. It's a *really* odd feeling walking
around the shops at this time of year and seeing the frantic faces....
and just not feel frantic, (or guilty :p )
It doesn't seem to bother the people who are closest to me, as by other
means I work on my connections with them every time I'm in contact.
I can see that ritual gift giving can put a spotlight on the dynamics
that are already present in the relationship, which is of course why all
these questions come up at this time of year. My own thought it is that
there is a significant difference between giving gifts to kids and giving
gifts to another adult. Kids most of the time don't know what's going on,
or the implications of their actions through times that they may be going
through a lot of pain...
BTW BD is getting lots of goodies this year, and what's more, I
bought a big present for my sister for Christmas. First one for about
five years.
*sigh* life is change.
Kevin
Kevin
> >Is this making any sense? Tracey?
>
> of the group and if it passes the 'Tracey Test', then you're making
> sense? <grin>
>
> --
> Tracey
thanks Tracey : ) . that gave me a really good laugh : )
Levom
(sorry still laughing, lost my home keys on the right hand...)
evkenv
Kevin
> That's a good thing to do, IMO. Some people don't *want*
> the truth and to give it to them when they don't want it is....
> something. Sorry, I've been shopping on-line a bit and I've
> lost my vocabulary I think with all the pointing and clicking.
>
More laughs . . . are you sure you haven't been drinking too?
Kevin?
Someone
: >very honest. I'm trying to figure out when people are *asking*
: >me to be honest.
This is something I need to work on. I need to figure out when people want
advice and when they want me to just shut up and listen.
: That's a good thing to do, IMO. Some people don't *want*
: the truth and to give it to them when they don't want it is....
: something.
is... not good (IMO) and I do it more than I should.
Nicole {Freezing in Wisconsin}
>> I
>>give gifts to those people whom it makes me feel good to give to. It does
>>not sound, in this situation, like giving SS a lot of gifts for Christmas
>>is going to make Pat and her husband happy; it is going to make them feel
>>manipulated and used.
>
>I'm sorry but I have to disagree here. Aren't you supposed to give gifts that
>make the other person feel good? I didn't know you gave a gift to someone else
>to make yourself feel good. To me that just doesn't make sense.
What about gifts to charities? Yes... it's to help those in need, but
doesn't it make *you* feel good to give? It does me.
Just my .02,
Nicole
I have gone looking for myself. If I return before I come back, please let me know I'm looking for myself.
My homepage: http://www.fastbytes.com/users/cinirb/
Sharyn & Karl
>
> We definitely spend far more on my SS who lives with us than my SD who
doesn't. But
> then we know him far better and so he's easier to buy for! We also know
what he's
> got and what he hasn't got which is impossible with SD as she gets stuff
constantly.
> I am also far more motivated to buy him more stuff because of the
emotional
> relationship that exists.
Nikki:
Last year I had no problem trying to figure out what to buy for Travis. Tosh
was so hard to buy for. This year it was the exact opposite, I found it
easier to buy for Tosh, then Trav. I don't know why. Tosh and my
relationship is and never will be what Trav and mine is. But she was a whole
lot easier to buy for. I think the big difference is I seen a different side
to her this summer. That and Trav is in the stage where he still wants toys
(cars, trucks and such) but he wants the big kids stuff (tv/vcr, stereo)
also. So I had a hard time trying to buy for him. Last night we put up the
tree and we let them open one present apeice, because Dad and I buy alot,
but Santa brings only *1* gift per child. Usually the big gift is from
Santa. Trav opened a construction site set. And he set there in the living
room playing with it for hours. Tosh opened her bead set so I went ahead and
gave her her birthday present (which happens to be on Christmas Day). She
played with it for hours also. Putting the beads in the dolls hair. She is
heavily into art type things. I didn't know this until this summer. She has
always wanted to do things like that, but her mother can't afford it. And
the daycamp type thing they were in this summer, had lots of arts and crafts
that she participated in. So I went with that as some of her presents.
Sharyn
(Who now has to go and buy something else for Tosh for her birthday, because
I don't want her to feel like I cheated her on it. Does anyone have any
experience with those EZ Bake ovens, she asked for one of those last year,
but I didn't get the request in time so thought I would buy it this year?)
jane lawrence
Tracey wrote:
>
> >I don't know if it's hitting 40 or what. The older I get, the
> >more I see the value in NOT being honest. Sometimes it seems as
> >though that social facade we put up is all that makes dealings
> >with people tolerable. Especially around the holidays.
>
> Well, I'm not that far behind you on hitting 40 (a year and a half
> to go) and I can see what you're saying to a point. For me, I don't
> know if I want to 'go there' as far as being honest with my stepkids.
> Because if *I* do, then *they* will and I'm not sure if that will do
> *any* of us any good. There are things/areas where I try to be
> honest to a fault. There are others where I'm just not going to be.
> I mean, really, what purpose would it serve to tell my parents the
> *real* reason why I'll probably never make a serious effort to be
> at their house for Thanksgiving again. None, other than to piss them
> off and start a huge fight that really isn't going to change anything.
> It won't change *my* decision and it won't change what *they*
> did. I'll just let it go and make other plans for my holidays.
>
Yeah, I think this is the sort of thing I mean. You've got
these holidays that are a drain on everyone's time, energy,
finances, and emotions. There's so much invested in them. Lots
of people want them to be perfect. They're such an opportunity
to make your parents finally treat your kids as well as they
treat your sister's. Or to find the perfect gift to show
someone how you feel. Or to draw a line in the sand with your
SK. Or to punish your mother for not appreciating you two years
ago.
I think that maybe we should try to let stuff slide some. I see
lots of us setting ourselves up for the traditional battle with
the other parent over the holidays, and I'm not sure they have
to happen. Several of us have been very pleasantly surprised in
the last few weeks. Where the situation just can't work out,
maybe we should let go and just accept that the present opening
has to be staggered, half the day will be spent driving, xmas at
our house will be on a different day, or our SKs will stop by,
grab the gifts and leave without a thank-you.
I don't mean to say that we shouldn't try to work out issues
with our loved ones. The holidays just don't seem like the most
propitious time to do it. Where there are other opportunities
during the year, I think we should try to exploit them.
jane (wandering away from the topic at hand yet again)
Melissa J. Ryan
>doesn't it make *you* feel good to give? It does me.
>
Of courese it makes me feel good but that's not the *reaso to give*. A gift is
about the other person or organization and making them feel good. Your feeling
good is like an extra added bonus. Think about it when you give to a charity
do you think "I'm going to give to this organization because it will make me
feel great." or "Boy these people are working for a cause I admire. I should
help them out."
Tracey
Oh, good, so I'm *not* dense! <grin>
Tracey wrote:
Hmmm, well, I'll think about this for a bit. I don't want to think I'm
trying punish my parents for something that happened a year ago.
>I think that maybe we should try to let stuff slide some. I see
>lots of us setting ourselves up for the traditional battle with
>the other parent over the holidays, and I'm not sure they have
>to happen. Several of us have been very pleasantly surprised in
>the last few weeks. Where the situation just can't work out,
>maybe we should let go and just accept that the present opening
>has to be staggered, half the day will be spent driving, xmas at
>our house will be on a different day, or our SKs will stop by,
>grab the gifts and leave without a thank-you.
Letting go is good <said by someone who seems to grab onto
things with vise grips.>
>I don't mean to say that we shouldn't try to work out issues
>with our loved ones. The holidays just don't seem like the most
>propitious time to do it. Where there are other opportunities
>during the year, I think we should try to exploit them.
You said yourself that the newsgroup is getting hot and heavy
because of the holidays. Is it that 'I want holidays my way and
they *will* be good, dammit, even if I have to kill everyone to
get them that way' syndrom coming out?
For myself, well, my holidays have rarely been perfect for a
very long time. There's always been *something* that's been
'wrong' or 'missing' so it's kind of a tradition for us, I guess,
that we don't have perfect holidays.
Sarai
jane lawrence wrote in message <38540B6E...@excite.com>...
>I chose you because you're tactless.
>
>lots of us setting ourselves up for the traditional battle with
>the other parent over the holidays, and I'm not sure they have
>to happen. Several of us have been very pleasantly surprised in
>the last few weeks. Where the situation just can't work out,
>maybe we should let go and just accept that the present opening
>has to be staggered, half the day will be spent driving, xmas at
>our house will be on a different day, or our SKs will stop by,
>grab the gifts and leave without a thank-you.
>
>with our loved ones. The holidays just don't seem like the most
>propitious time to do it. Where there are other opportunities
>during the year, I think we should try to exploit them.
I agree with this. I guess I just feel like Christmas is Christmas. Is it
a good thing to fight on Christmas? I mean, look at it this way: Here is a
Dh w/ a kid and new wife. Together they have a couple of kids. Dh married
wife when his kid was little. Kid has issues about divorce. Sm is super
nice to kid, and goes out of her way for him. Kid grows into teens and
becomes typical teenager. Does'nt care about really anything but social
life. Starts getting weird teenager feelings, why did'nt my parents stay
married? Why does'nt my dad do <so and so>? Maybe he feels jilted or
something about Dad having new family with new kids, not because wife is
mean to him, but because he's just learning the ropes of life and trying to
figure things out. (I know I had issues when i was a teenager, and I grew
up with both parents). So sk starts withdrawing from Dad. Does'nt want to
go anywhere near his Sm or their kids, his half siblings. Dad and wife say,
well gee. We WOULD get him a ton of presents this christmas, but because he
does'nt include himself in the FAMILY then we won't. We'll just get him
some little something just to show we still care. Now, maybe I had to write
all this garb out just to help me figure all this out, but is'nt this
something that should be dealt with in other ways than Christmas? This is
just so confusing to me...
Heather
jane lawrence
>
>
> You said yourself that the newsgroup is getting hot and heavy
> because of the holidays. Is it that 'I want holidays my way and
> they *will* be good, dammit, even if I have to kill everyone to
> get them that way' syndrom coming out?
>
> For myself, well, my holidays have rarely been perfect for a
> very long time. There's always been *something* that's been
> 'wrong' or 'missing' so it's kind of a tradition for us, I guess,
> that we don't have perfect holidays.
>
This is what I'm thinking lately.
The anxiety level here has definitely escalated recently, and I
do think it is due to the holidays. I don't think it's the
result of sheer bloody mindedness, though. I think it's the
combination of holiday stress and stepfamily stress.
When I look at us as a group, I see all the holiday pressure
endemic in our society. We have no time, extra work, not enough
money, travel plans to be made, pets to arrange for, parties,
school functions, our crazy families, our mates' crazy families,
and kids who want dvd tvs from Santa. Then we've got our
standard step hassles: guilt, obstruction, discipline, fairness,
blending, resentment, and all the rest.
When you combine the two sets of stressors, the effect seems
increase disproportionately. We're dealing with overspending
for kids who never bother to visit anyway, exorbitant travel
fares that could have been avoided if our mates' exes could just
once have gotten their shit together, xmas plays in another town
that we don't hear about until that morning, and annoying in
laws who say a prayer for the ex before dinner. The potential
for disaster is almost limitless.
My theory is that things might go easier on everyone if we can
minimize the combination of the two sets of pressures. Some
step issues do not have to be dealt with on the holidays. If
we're only seeing the kids over the holidays until summer, then
maybe we should let their bed times slide. If our mates will be
miserable if we don't spend equal amounts on all the kids, maybe
we should just let them.
I also think we need to be as flexible as we possibly can in our
expectations for the holidays. Some of us just have to work
through SKs' xmas pageant even if it will be thrown in our faces
later. Some of our families cannot all open presents at the
same time. Many of us are not going to find the perfect gifts
for our SKs. Things are going to go wrong, and if we let it get
to us, the holidays will be hell.
I'm not sure how I got here in this thread. It's a meandering
around the idea that we're probably not going to settle any step
issues over the holidays.
Melissa Torresan
wrote:
Once again, you're so right, Jane. We had SK last weekend, and it went
pretty well, because as well as not letting BM get to me, I'm letting
SO deal with any problems that arrive. I *know* I am doing better with
the whole thing, but thats another post.. I just wanted to give a
hearty "I agree" to this post, because it describes it so well..
something I have trouble doing most of the time!
Mel
---------------------------------------------------
Jennaii
include with it taste like shit though. You are much better off buying a
regular brownie mix or bread mix and just "baking" it for a real short time...>
Does anyone have any
>experience with those EZ Bake ovens, she asked for one of those last year,
>but I didn't get the request in time so thought I would buy it this year?)
"This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" -- Bob Seger
Jennaii
nicky
>Every inch of that stocking,
>every year, is a surprise. And even though they're now 25, 32 and 35 (and
>my mom, at 57), every Christmas morning is magic and everyone is a child.
>
>Do you know what I mean?
>
>lil
Sian Lee Reid
> I agree with this. I guess I just feel like Christmas is Christmas. Is it
> a good thing to fight on Christmas? I mean, look at it this way: Here is a
> Dh w/ a kid and new wife. Together they have a couple of kids. Dh married
> wife when his kid was little. Kid has issues about divorce. Sm is super
> nice to kid, and goes out of her way for him. Kid grows into teens and
> becomes typical teenager. Does'nt care about really anything but social
> life. Starts getting weird teenager feelings, why did'nt my parents stay
> married? Why does'nt my dad do <so and so>? Maybe he feels jilted or
> something about Dad having new family with new kids, not because wife is
> mean to him, but because he's just learning the ropes of life and trying to
> figure things out. (I know I had issues when i was a teenager, and I grew
> up with both parents). So sk starts withdrawing from Dad. Does'nt want to
> go anywhere near his Sm or their kids, his half siblings. Dad and wife say,
> well gee. We WOULD get him a ton of presents this christmas, but because he
> does'nt include himself in the FAMILY then we won't. We'll just get him
> some little something just to show we still care. Now, maybe I had to write
> all this garb out just to help me figure all this out, but is'nt this
> something that should be dealt with in other ways than Christmas? This is
> just so confusing to me...
>
> Heather
And we do deal with it, on an ongoing basis. Christmas is simply no
different. Heather, in our case, this has gone on for several years; it's
not new, and it's not a one-off thing.
We are trying to acquaint my SS with 'the ropes of life' and one of the
primary ones is that if you persist in alternating between ignoring people
and treating them like garbage, they aren't going to be eager to go out of
their way for you. I don't think that being 'family' gives people the
right to treat you with a complete and total lack of empathy and
consideration. Yes, I put up with *more* from my family than I would from
my friends, but I don't think that you do a child any favours when you
teach them that behaviour has no consequences. Unfortunately, in my
particular situation, that is what BM does. She does it for very well
intentioned reasons, but it isn't working out very well for *her* either.
Would we be doing the same thing to a moody teenager in an intact
household. I'm not sure, I don't have one of those yet! But, knowing me,
probably. In an intact home though, a teenager does not have the option
of refusing to see one parent; they can just be surly and miserable and
make everyone's life a waking nightmare. The kid would still get gifts,
but rather than knock myself out trying to pick out the 'perfect' things
(which will garner me a disinterested sniff from sullen moody teenager in
question) I'd likely just get gift certificates, and let the teenager
brave the mall. Probably just about anyone enjoys the mall more than I
do!
Trust me, we wish things were different...
Sian
Nicole {Freezing in Wisconsin}
>I had one as a kid. It was quite sturdy and I like it alot. The recipes they
>include with it taste like shit though. You are much better off buying a
>regular brownie mix or bread mix and just "baking" it for a real short time...>
My mom always bought those "Jiffy" mixes for my EzBake oven... they
were good :)
Tracey
>around the idea that we're probably not going to settle any step
>issues over the holidays.
Nah, we're probably not. Can it also be that sometimes the
'good will' of the holidays can be misinterpreted? Or assigned
negative attitudes? For instance, the OP (whoops, forgot who
it was!) is looking at the fact that her SS might be coming for
Christmas as motivated solely by greed. What if it's seen
by him as a 'social obligation'? I don't know, I'm not up much
on social obligations (the subject of another post I've been
thinking of.)
--
Sarai
I guess this is just a subject that I would like to understand and be
prepared for when my son gets older. Im 22, and he's only 3, but I know
that someday something to this equivalent might come up when he's older.
But all situations are different, and I'm getting some *really* good
parenting advice on this group.
Heather :-)
jane lawrence
I think a lot of us have a tremendous amount invested in the
holidays.
When it's the only time you see your kids outside summer
vacation, there can be huge pressure to establish traditions,
have meaningful contact, instill your values. When you have
bios who are halfs to the steps, you can feel that you really
need to create those special sibling xmases someone just
described, that leave you with treasured memories for a life
time. When you've got Santa aged kids, you don't want them to
miss one moment of that xmas morning magic. Those are just
random examples; I could come up with a hundred more.
I think we should try to pull back from potential conflict where
we can. Of course, where we can is different for all of us. I
forget who it was last year who wanted to model frugality as an
example for the child the first xmas he spent with them. Pat
and SS's presents made me feel the same way. Melissa's rock
tumbler. Kim's SD demanding to earn xmas money babysitting then
not showing up. I think we should let as much of that stuff
roll off our backs as we can. Maybe that's what we're all
doing, and we're just venting here.
Anyway, I agree with you that we should give people the benefit
of the doubt where we can. They're all going through their own
version of holiday angst. Everyone's a little touchy.
jane
Sharyn & Karl
over to Walmart and pick one up. I hope she likes it.
Sharyn
Nicole {Freezing in Wisconsin} <nic...@fastbytes.com> wrote in message
news:3856f781...@news.fastbytes.com...
Sarai
MR Brunjes
remember what they tasted like when I was a kid. :)
I've already gotten my SO's daughter an EZ Bake oven for Christmas. It came
with an extra box of mixes. In addition, I got her an Oreo cake mix set &
one other that I can't remember right now - both made specifically for the
EZ Bake oven. It's nice to know about the Jiffy mixes. I was thinking I'd
have to start baking alot more cakes & such so that she could have a bit of
the batter for her oven. :)
Take care of yourselves,
Melody
(who liked her own EZ Bake oven so much that I still have it packed away
somewhere. :) )
Karla23
Cake mixes they're the ones where you just add water. It's alot cheaper.
Karla
Tia Trantham
Then she hired a cook to bake the cakes and cookies. Took all the fun out
of it.
Tia
MR Brunjes <MBru...@Erols.Com> wrote in message
news:833r78$fgp$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net...
Tia Trantham
Is your family partial to owls for some reason? Just curious...
Tia
lilblakdog <lbdcre...@dog.com> wrote in message
news:9jv44.4240$uj2.1...@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
> Melissa Torresan wrote in message <38520576...@news.bigpond.com>...
>
> >After I found out that Santa did not exist, Xmas went downhill. We
> >started giving each other money - or for the last few years, we don't
> >buy presents for the adults. Full stop. Because you might buy
> >something for them, and they might not get anything for you, and
> >that's really embarrassing. But the major reason is, Xmas is for the
> >kids.
>
> Ack! Where did this bit of propaganda come from??? :-)
>
> My BIL and his wife are like this--don't worry about us, Christmas is for
> the children. In my family, on Christmas, we *are* children!
>
> We don't worry about buying lots of expensive things for each other, no.
My
> mission is to buy my brothers and my mom something they'll really
> love--something that will put magic into their eyes, the same way it does
> with the kids. I don't think you can ever be too old for that.
>
> One year, my gift to my little brother was to adopt an owl, in his name,
at
> a local sanctuary that specialized in birds of prey. It cost me $20 and
> gave him nothing but a slip of paper with a picture of an owl on it, but
he
> was more excited with that gift than any other I've ever bought him (well,
> okay...he's going to be blown away with the "breast" mannequin I'm getting
> him this year! :-).
>
> Christmas for my older brothers was always an extreme disappointment. You
> all know that we were...um...borderline "poor" growing up, and we also had
a
> bastard for a father. For my oldest brother, Christmas memories were
being
> told that he shouldn't get anything this year because he never did <fill
in
> the blank>. He never knew whether to expect a Christmas or not. For my
> middle brother, Christmas meant that our next door neighbors on either
side
> (who had boys his age) would get all the things that they (and he) wanted,
> while he got an inexpensive puzzle or game or something equally
> unimpressive. I know--that's his fault for thinking that way because *I*
> certainly never did, but that's how things were. He was in the
unfortunate
> position of having best friends who were either rich or spoiled or both.
>
> The first year I did stockings for my family, my brothers were 17, 24 and
> 27. I cannot even begin to describe the way their faces lit up when they
> saw them. It's a memory that I will always cherish--being able to give
them
> something magical for Christmas. For the very first time, they were
getting
> that childhood Christmas that all their friends got--complete with
matching,
> personalized stockings. And it's not stereos, or laser disks, or Rolex
> watches. It's a $5 toy here and a $4 gadget there. This year I'm going
to
> buy them each owl pellets and the first person to build a mouse is going
to
> win (for anyone who doesn't know, owl's eat rodents whole and then spit
out
> a perfectly formed block of fur and bones--science classes often use them
> for disection and you can generally build a whole mouse skeleton from
> one)...do you have *any* idea how big a thrill that's going to give them?
> It's going to be mouse central in the dining room and they're going to
love
> every minute of it. From a $3 owl pellet. Every inch of that stocking,
> every year, is a surprise. And even though they're now 25, 32 and 35 (and
> my mom, at 57), every Christmas morning is magic and everyone is a child.
>
> Do you know what I mean?
>
> lil
Tia Trantham
told my husband that we should give the kid money and let him get what he
wants. He says that that is an awful thing for a parent to do: that we
should buy him stuff that he can open on Xmas day and get really excited
about. My husband's mother and myself always ask all family members for a
gift list. My husband thinks this is tacky and shows that you don't really
think about the present or the person. Opinions?
Tia
Sarai <heat...@ipa.net> wrote in message news:833n1a$mf1$2...@news.ipa.net...
lilblakdog
news:V8u54.91401$5W2.2...@news6.giganews.com...
> Is your family partial to owls for some reason? Just curious...
<grin>
My baby brother is *very* into wildlife. Last Friday, when I was home with
the flu, I sat with him in the living room while he stared out the window at
his bird feeder for over an hour. Every time the sparrows would take over
the feeder, he'd go out and rearrange things. When the squirrels tried to
get in, he'd go out and toss pennies at them until they went away. He's
kind of weird that way! :-)
My mom likes birds, too. My other brothers and I are completely oblivious
to them most of the time, although I love the squirrels. I always said that
the most I ever learned on any one school day, was the day I cut class and
hung out in Stanley Park with an old hippie, feeding the squirrels!
But I got to dissect an owl pellet in tenth grade science class and it was
*so* cool! I refused to do the cow eye, although I did do the yellow perch
(I've gutted so many fish in my life that one more was not going to kill
me--no matter how nauseating the smell of formaldehyde is!). But the owl
pellet was really, really cool, so when I saw a place that sold them I
couldn't resist.
lil (who also bought everyone individual plum puddings and was *very*
disappointed that they do not actually contain plums!!!)
--
Who is at fault when a monster is a monster? Is it the monster? Or the
jane lawrence
>
> My Mother bought me an EZ Bake oven when I was a little girl for Christmas.
> Then she hired a cook to bake the cakes and cookies. Took all the fun out
> of it.
>
jane
Tracey
>told my husband that we should give the kid money and let him get what he
>wants. He says that that is an awful thing for a parent to do: that we
>should buy him stuff that he can open on Xmas day and get really excited
>about.
I'm of two minds about money for gifts. OOH, if I give money (or gift
certificates) to someone, I will also give them at least one other gift. For
me, especially when it's like my nephews or my brother's stepkids, I
can't even *begin* to know what to get a few of them. Last year, every-
one was in fairly good financial shape and everyone bought for everyone.
I had *no* idea what to get my SIL's kids. I don't know them. So, I
asked her about what stores they *really* liked to shop in. And her
daughter ended up with a gift certificate to Victoria's Secrets, her son
ended up with a gift certificate to a sports shop and both of them got
a fairly inexpensive pen and pencil set. *I* think that a gift certificate
to a store you *know* they like is not an indication that you don't care
about them, but an indication that you have thought about it a bit, but
don't want to get them something they already have or won't like.
OTOH, I think giving someone money as a gift can be handled in a
way that makes it 'not so nice'. If you give someone a card with a
check in it and leave it at that, it's kind of......I dunno. But, if you
say 'Here, I wanted to get you some clothes, but I don't know the
size you wear and I would really rather that you buy something you
*like* and will wear rather than something that will sit in the closet.
Now, go hit those sales!' or if you give them money and designate
it for a certain purpose 'Here, I know you need some work done
on your car. Hope this helps out.' that's okay, AFAIC.
>My husband's mother and myself always ask all family members for a
>gift list. My husband thinks this is tacky and shows that you don't really
>think about the present or the person. Opinions?
Oh, gift list definitely. Especially for kids. Hell, for anyone. I don't expect
my parents to know if I have an electric blanket or not. I don't expect my
in-laws to know if we have a rice cooker. And, for me, gift lists are rarely
seen as a 'buy me all of these things' but more as suggestions. And, while
I appreciate anything the thought behind any gift, I would much rather be
able to *use* the things that are given to me than to have them sit in their
box for five years and then be sold in a garage sale. And, how much fun
is it for a kid to open *three* Tickle-me Elmos??? The first one is pretty
good, but the excitement and fun is gone during the other two.
Tia Trantham
that's really neat.
lilblakdog <lbdcre...@dog.com> wrote in message
news:8Uu54.9360$uj2.2...@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
Tia Trantham
or anything else messy. She had good intentions, you know. About two days
after I got my EZ bake oven, she hired a lady to come in and "help" me bake.
The lady did all the stuff. Her name was Ilsa. She showed me how to mix
the cakes and things and then baked them in the EZ bake. Then she ate them.
I had a taste and they were okay. But really, I probably would have liked
it better if I would have baked the cakes myself and my Mother got excited
over them. Ilsa was excited that they came out okay.
Tia
jane lawrence <jan...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:38567EDF...@excite.com...
S&W
"lilblakdog" <lbdcre...@dog.com> wrote in message
news:8Uu54.9360$uj2.2...@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
> But I got to dissect an owl pellet in tenth grade science class and it was
> *so* cool! I refused to do the cow eye, although I did do the yellow
perch
> (I've gutted so many fish in my life that one more was not going to kill
> me--no matter how nauseating the smell of formaldehyde is!). But the owl
> pellet was really, really cool, so when I saw a place that sold them I
> couldn't resist.
We took our Junior/Brownie Girl Scout troop to a nature center last year,
and they were able to dissect owl pellets. I thought it was way cool, and
they were totally grossed out/fascinated. After one girl found a mouse
skull, everyone was so impressed that they began dissecting with renewed
enthusiasm. For about a week or so, Paige and Britt bragged to everyone
they saw about the owl pellets. That is one field trip that will stick in
their memories, for sure!
> lil (who also bought everyone individual plum puddings and was *very*
> disappointed that they do not actually contain plums!!!)
Well then, what *is* in plum pudding? Didn't Little Jack Horner pull a plum
out of some plum pudding with his thumb, while he sat in the corner (or
something like that)?
shay
lilblakdog
>Well then, what *is* in plum pudding? Didn't Little Jack Horner pull a
plum
>out of some plum pudding with his thumb, while he sat in the corner (or
>something like that)?
Nah...he was eating his "Christmas Pie"...which, I suppose, could have just
about anything in it! :-)
My mother tried to explain it to me. She said--get this--that the raisins
are the plum. If you expect to be eating just a plain pudding (which most
of them were in the "olden days") and you got raisins as well, that was a
"plum"--like a surprise. So it was plum pudding--surprise pudding.
It's kind of like the time I finally realized that pickled herring wasn't
cooked. "You mean it's raw???" "No, it's pickled." "Is it cooked?" "No."
"Then it's raw." "No...it's pickled." "But it's uncooked fish, right?"
"Yes it's uncooked, but it's pickled so it's not raw." "How can it not be
raw if it's not cooked???"
It makes very little sense to me!
lil
---
"Who is at fault when a monster is a monster? Is it the monster's? Or the