interesting teen conversation
Deborah M Riel
talking to GF, who was obviously upset. They were supposed to be able
to hang out tonight with another couple of friends. Her mom
apparently changed her mind.
Son--I don't want to hang out with you if you're sneaking around behind
your mom's back. I'll call you later, or you can call me any time
tonight. I'd rather wait until tomorrow when we can hang around for
the whole evening.
GF called back 3 more times. Conversation was the same.
He finally told her she could stop by the house on her way to do an
errand, and he'd come out and give her a hug. We talked about it a
bit, and he said it was a compromise.
Others here might not see it this way, but I see it as an honorable
decision on his part.
Deb R.
Amy Lou
"Deborah M Riel" <dr...@wpi.edu> wrote in message
news:c28jn9$2pn2$1...@bigboote.WPI.EDU...
Well IMO he's one terrific person. He was put in a position of choosing
between his girlfriend's wishes or his girlfriend's mom's wishes. Not an
easy task for a 17y/o IMO. I think he has handled the whole thing pretty
well myself and if I were you I'd be pretty proud of him too.
Amy
Lori
> talking to GF, who was obviously upset. They were supposed to be able
> to hang out tonight with another couple of friends. Her mom
> apparently changed her mind.
>
> Son--I don't want to hang out with you if you're sneaking around behind
> your mom's back. I'll call you later, or you can call me any time
> tonight. I'd rather wait until tomorrow when we can hang around for
> the whole evening.
>
> GF called back 3 more times. Conversation was the same.
Good for him! Now *that's* character!
>
> He finally told her she could stop by the house on her way to do an
> errand, and he'd come out and give her a hug. We talked about it a
> bit, and he said it was a compromise.
Well, he's right, he compromised his own principles. But at least for the
most part he did refuse to go behind the mother's back.
>
> Others here might not see it this way, but I see it as an honorable
> decision on his part.
hmmm.. maybe, but would have been more honerable to tell her she needed to
ask her mom if it was OK. Her parents will respect him more if they know
he's willing to respect their rules and standards, which just might cause
them to relax a bit where he's concerned.
Lori
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Wendy
>
> He finally told her she could stop by the house on her way to do an
> errand, and he'd come out and give her a hug. We talked about it a
> bit, and he said it was a compromise.
I think that is sweet.
> Others here might not see it this way, but I see it as an honorable
> decision on his part.
Indeed, honourable and supportive.
Wendy
Deborah M Riel
Amy Lou <amyl...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>Well IMO he's one terrific person. He was put in a position of choosing
>between his girlfriend's wishes or his girlfriend's mom's wishes. Not an
>easy task for a 17y/o IMO. I think he has handled the whole thing pretty
>well myself and if I were you I'd be pretty proud of him too.
>
>Amy
>
Thanks, Amy. Realistically speaking, he was in the position of saying
no to his own wishes, too. He really wanted to see her, but didn't
want to see her get in trouble.
He's interesting in the way he talks to his friends. It's not always
clear when he talks to me that he thinks about these things. When he
talks to them, the values he's internalized come out more and more
often.
Deb R.
Deborah M Riel
Lori <real...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>Good for him! Now *that's* character!
Well, of course he has character. He always has had character. He's
learning the value of thinking for himself. He's internalizing the
messages. And he's still talking to me about these things
because he still feels I'm approachable and have credibility with him.
I can't emphasize enough how valuable that is to both of us.
Deb R.
Deborah M Riel
Wendy <we...@hundredakerwood.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Indeed, honourable and supportive.
And I think she needs some support, too. Sometimes I wonder how his
GF can stand him when he's being an obnoxious teenaged boy, but then
again, his feelings are genuine and I think his friends know that.
Deb R.
Pat
> decision on his part.
Deb,
I'm with you!! I see what your son did as something to be VERY proud of!!!
My youngest son is 21 and he gets picked on sometimes because he still gives
me hugs and tells me that he loves me. He doesn't care one bit. We still
talk about stuff. I LOVE IT!!!! I think it's great when our kids can go
against what others think and do what's best at the time!!!!
Pat
Wendy
> He's interesting in the way he talks to his friends. It's not always
> clear when he talks to me that he thinks about these things. When he
> talks to them, the values he's internalized come out more and more
> often.
My older daughter is the same. Sometimes I think she'll never grow up, and
then I see her and she's the sensible one amongst her friends, advising
caution, and looking out for them.
Wendy
Rupa Bose
> "Deborah M Riel" <dr...@wpi.edu> wrote
> >
> > GF called back 3 more times. Conversation was the same.
> >
> > He finally told her she could stop by the house on her way to do an
> > errand, and he'd come out and give her a hug. We talked about it a
> > bit, and he said it was a compromise.
>
> I think that is sweet.
>
> > Others here might not see it this way, but I see it as an honorable
> > decision on his part.
>
> Indeed, honourable and supportive.
>
> Wendy
I agree...now. Now that I have teenagers.
Way back when, when I was a teen, I don't think I would have agreed.
At all. I'd have perceived it as disloyal and disrespectful: Why
should he go by my parents say-so, rather than mine? I would have
considered it *my* call whether I wanted to obey my parents or not. I
wouldn't want a boyfriend who enforced their rules. (However, I would
not have expected his Mom to cover up for me if I was breaking house
rules.)
Perspectives change.
Rupa
jane
>decision on his part.
>
>Deb R.
I don't even care about what his decision is. I'm just happy that he's
figuring it out.
So, look, Lee's considering Clark. Her father thinks it isn't a good enough
school, but she wants a good psych program, and I think it's worth checking
out. Is there any chance that she can have lunch with your son and his GF and
get the scoop on Worcester? What are the odds?
Vicki, Melissa, any chance of hooking her up in Mt Holyoke? When is spring
break for them?
jane
Melissa
The notion that he didn't have character was just silly, as well as mean
spirited. Deb you don't need to defend your son's actions to anyone on this
ng. It bothers me that Lori's comments might have made you feel that the need
to. Maybe I'm putting to much of my own feelings into this but the direction
that this is going really bothers me.
Lori's opinions of anyone's parenting skills or children amount to very little.
She's not the end all be all on character, none of us are. I guess what I'm
saying is that I hope you don't take any of these comments to heart. From
everything I've read about your son, he sounds like a fine young man who will
grow up with many of the same qualities that I love about his mother.
Love,
Melissa
"The old Tom didn't poison your fish either!"
-Carson Kressley, from Queer Eye
Melissa
>break for them?
>
>jane
>
SD is going to be in France this Spring Break, but summer might be an option.
She'll be up here alot and we coudl all drive up to the campus.
That would require you guys visiting though. ;)
Vicki Robinson
>So, look, Lee's considering Clark. Her father thinks it isn't a good enough
>school, but she wants a good psych program, and I think it's worth checking
>out. Is there any chance that she can have lunch with your son and his GF and
>get the scoop on Worcester? What are the odds?
I have a friend who works at Clark (teaches there). He doesn't have a
lot good to say about it. He calls it a "pseudo-university."
>Vicki, Melissa, any chance of hooking her up in Mt Holyoke? When is spring
>break for them?
Good questions. I think she's planning to spend spring break with
friends in Boston, but I'll ask.
By the way, Melissa, Stevie thinks she's in a class with your SD. Of
course I can't remember which one. A literature course, I think?
Vicki
--
Just to think I used to worry about things like that.
Used to worry 'bout rich and skinny
'til I wound up poor and fat.
-Delbert McClinton
Melissa
>course I can't remember which one. A literature course, I think?
>
>Vicki
Italian Literature?
heather m.
were a bad mother or didn't do your job well enough. You rock woman,
don't let anyone else tell you otherwise :):):):)
Heather
"Melissa" <laa...@aol.comspamzap> wrote in message
news:20040305225733...@mb-m21.aol.com...
Geri and sometimes Brian
What does she want to do for a career?
~~Geri~~
jane
>friends in Boston, but I'll ask.
Well, I was thinking that Lee's spring break might happen while they are in
classes. Then she could go up and maybe attend a class, and have coffee with
one of your kids and sort of get the skinny. Or depending how booked their time
in Boston is, that might work, too.
jane
Geri and sometimes Brian
>little.
They count for her own family and that is what is important. I have found what
she has to say interesting and helpful, so speak for yourself on that one.
>he sounds like a fine young man who will
>grow up with many of the same qualities that I love about his mother.
That remains to be seen of all our children. They all still have the potential
to turn out to be Ted Bundy, too.
~~Geri~~
jane
>
>What does she want to do for a career?
>
>
>~~Geri~~
What the hell is wrong with you today? If you want to fight about something,
just ask.
FTR, I want Lee to go to college so that she will be a well-educated person,
not to learn a trade.
jane
Melissa
>>Italian Literature?
>
>What does she want to do for a career?
>
>
>~~Geri~~
>
Something in Theater probably. She's majoring in English right now with a
minor in theater.
Did I tell you guys about her fellowship? She was awarded a full scholarship to
study theater in England next fall. We're so proud of her!
*AND* now we have a good excuse to go to England.
Geri and sometimes Brian
>just ask.
>
>FTR, I want Lee to go to college so that she will be a well-educated person,
>not to learn a trade.
Actually, I was being nosey. It is one of those interesting courses like Art
History and Graeco-Roman History and The Rhetoric of Aristotle (which I took in
college) that set you up for nothing practical in the world, but round your
knowledge in general (not a bad thing).
~~Geri~~
Lori
Of course he has character, everyone does in one way or another. Look, I'm
obviously expressing something badly, as I'm not getting across *at all*
what I intend to get across. It's one thing to say someone has good
character, it's another to say they are behaving in a way that expresses
that character. *IMO*, and that's all it's ever been, an opinion, which is
just as valid as the opinion of anyone else here, someone who deliberately
chooses to help a friend go against the authority of their parents, is *not*
behaving as one with good character. someone who tells their friend that
regardless of whether or not they agree with the friend's parent's rule,
they will not help them go against it and deceive their parent, *is*
behaving as one with good character. I think what your son just did by
telling his girlfriend he would not help her to deceive her mom is
wonderfully mature.
Lori
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Geri and sometimes Brian
>to
>study theater in England next fall. We're so proud of her!
>
>*AND* now we have a good excuse to go to England.
That is cool.
~~Geri~~
jane
potential
>to turn out to be Ted Bundy, too.
Our children, huh?
What's going on, Geri? The world's going to hell in a handbasket and you can't
stop it. You're calling your SD your child. You're suggesting our kids could
turn out to be serial killers.
What's the deal?
jane
>
>~~Geri~~
Melissa
>That is cool.
>~~Geri~~
Yeah SO, BM and I are probably all a bit jealous. :)
jane
>just as valid as the opinion of anyone else here,
Whoa. You are certainly entitled to your opinion as much as anyone else.
Validity is an entirely different matter.
jane
>Lori
Lori
"Melissa" <laa...@aol.comspamzap> wrote in message
news:20040305225733...@mb-m21.aol.com...
> >Lori <real...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Good for him! Now *that's* character!
> >
> >Well, of course he has character. He always has had character. He's
> >learning the value of thinking for himself. He's internalizing the
> >messages. And he's still talking to me about these things
> >because he still feels I'm approachable and have credibility with him.
> >I can't emphasize enough how valuable that is to both of us.
> >
> >Deb R.
>
> The notion that he didn't have character was just silly, as well as mean
> spirited. Deb you don't need to defend your son's actions to anyone on
this
> ng. It bothers me that Lori's comments might have made you feel that the
need
> to. Maybe I'm putting to much of my own feelings into this but the
direction
> that this is going really bothers me.
It bothers me too, since I've done nothing more than anyone else here, give
my *opinion*, which, BTW, Melissa, is as valid as the opinions of you or
anyone else here, regardless of whether or not it matches *your* opinion.
> Lori's opinions of anyone's parenting skills or children amount to very
little.
They amount to exactly what your opinions on the subject, or anyone else's
opinion on the subject. They amount to exactly what anyone wishes them to
amount to. If you agree with them, the opinions carry great weight, if you
disagree, they mean squat. That's a fact of life, Melissa, and you know it.
> She's not the end all be all on character, none of us are.
Oh, I completely agree with you here. I'm not the be all on anything,
anymore than anyone here is. All we are is people on a public newsgroup,
giving our opinions and talking about a variety of subjects.
I guess what I'm
> saying is that I hope you don't take any of these comments to heart.
I don't think that any of us should take too much to heart what anyone else
says here. We mostly don't know each other, don't know fully what makes the
others tick, how they arrive at what they think, etc.
From
> everything I've read about your son, he sounds like a fine young man who
will
> grow up with many of the same qualities that I love about his mother.
It sounds like he has a good shot at turning out pretty good, yeah.
Geri and sometimes Brian
She is from the standpoint that I am helping raise her. She considers herself
my child. AYK, we don't hold biology in any special regard at our house.
>What's going on, Geri? The world's going to hell in a handbasket and you
>can't
>stop it.
>You're suggesting our kids could
>turn out to be serial killers.
>What's the deal?
Nothing new.
~~Geri~~
Geri and sometimes Brian
Yeah, but you can go and visit her. I hope I can figure out how to visit my
sister in Ireland and see some of Scotland before they move back.
~~Geri~~
Melissa
>my *opinion*, which, BTW, Melissa, is as valid as the opinions of you or
>anyone else here, regardless of whether or not it matches *your* opinion.
Lori what bothers isn't anything you said. What you said doesn't particularly
surprise or offend me. It's that Deb might have taken it to heart.
Melissa
And see Nikki and Kevin too. I owe them both a visit.
Geri and sometimes Brian
Wouldn't that would be her problem, though? In any case, I am sure she didn't.
She seems to be pretty sure that the way she is doing things is right for her
family. At least that is how I read her.
~~Geri~~
Lori
"jane" <janel...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040305232646...@mb-m01.aol.com...
I disagree. *Everyone's* opinion is valid. that's why it's called
*opinion*.
heather m.
"Geri and sometimes Brian" <gple...@aol.comGOBIGRED> wrote in message
news:20040305231322...@mb-m11.aol.com...
Ew ew don't say that. My mom's best friend was actually *approached* by him
back in the day when he was a predator. She said he was incredibly charming
and good-looking, and then I guess some time later on, maybe a year or so,
she recognized him on tv. Freaked her out, for sure. Just reminds me to be
ultra careful.
Heather
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
heather m.
"Lori" <real...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:gDc2c.356$G87...@fe03.usenetserver.com...
>
> "jane" <janel...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040305232646...@mb-m01.aol.com...
> > > *IMO*, and that's all it's ever been, an opinion, which is
> > >just as valid as the opinion of anyone else here,
> >
> > Whoa. You are certainly entitled to your opinion as much as anyone
else.
> > Validity is an entirely different matter.
> >
>
>
> I disagree. *Everyone's* opinion is valid. that's why it's called
> *opinion*.
> Lori
>
>
Oh shit.
Heather
heather m.
interpretive literature about the Bible and some of Harold Blooms'
writings/interpretations on other good works and it has opened *so* many
doors about what makes you human. I mean, the Bible is literature, the fact
that we can even *write* literature or language and be creative is what
makes us human, separate from primal animals or mechanical drones. And
Irony is invaluable. Socrates said anyone that would be able to write an
awful tragedy would have the ability to write a great comedy. I love
literature.
And IMO, literature from those times (like you mentioned) are similar to,
say, Anne's haiku. Using great irony and tragedy to teach you deeper
lessons in life situations.
Heather
"Geri and sometimes Brian" <gple...@aol.comGOBIGRED> wrote in message
news:20040305232029...@mb-m11.aol.com...
heather m.
like, 5 times in the past two years, maybe even more, I'm not sure. She
goes on this travel deal that only costs *$400.* and pays for all of your
hotel rooms. The thing is, though, you have to drive (optional I think)
wherever you want to go, and the bill still pays for your rooms. A road
trip vacation, kinda. All you have to pay for, besides the initial cost, is
your meals and rental car. She said if she ever decides to go to Scotland,
all she'll do is pay for the Ireland trip package, and just sail on the boat
over to Scotland. Pretty cool.
Heather
"Geri and sometimes Brian" <gple...@aol.comGOBIGRED> wrote in message
news:20040305233043...@mb-m11.aol.com...
Amy Lou
Lori, it was your opinion that Deb's son is not of good character because he
didn't help his friend obey her mom. Now that he is helping his friend to
obey he is wonderfully mature. It seems to me that you put a very high value
on parental authority. How does this affect your relationship with SS's mom?
Amy
Wendy
"Melissa" <laa...@aol.comspamzap> wrote in message
> Something in Theater probably. She's majoring in English right now with a
> minor in theater.
>
> Did I tell you guys about her fellowship? She was awarded a full
scholarship to
> study theater in England next fall. We're so proud of her!
Whereabouts?
> *AND* now we have a good excuse to go to England.
I live in Warwick, which is about 10 miles from Stratford-Upon-Avon
(Shakespeares Birthplace and home of the RSC). It would be great to meet up
in real life. Nikki and I've been talking about it for ages, but it never
seems to happen.
Wendy
Wendy
"Melissa" <laa...@aol.comspamzap> wrote in message
> And see Nikki and Kevin too. I owe them both a visit.
I've met Kevin. He lives about 40 minutes drive away from us.
Wendy
Wendy
"Rupa Bose" <rkb...@pacific.net.sg> wrote in message
news:e5619372.04030...@posting.google.com...
> I agree...now. Now that I have teenagers.
>
> Way back when, when I was a teen, I don't think I would have agreed.
> At all. I'd have perceived it as disloyal and disrespectful: Why
> should he go by my parents say-so, rather than mine? I would have
> considered it *my* call whether I wanted to obey my parents or not. I
> wouldn't want a boyfriend who enforced their rules. (However, I would
> not have expected his Mom to cover up for me if I was breaking house
> rules.)
My daughter's boyfriend often seems to make the same suggestions as I do in
encouraging my daughter to be focussed on her studies, because her exams are
coming up. It doesn't mean that he's taking the parental side against our
daughter. Supportive isn't the same as agreeing.
Wendy
> Perspectives change.
>
> Rupa
Anne Robotti
>Vicki, Melissa, any chance of hooking her up in Mt Holyoke? When is spring
>break for them?
PRINCETON!!! PRINCETON!!!!
We have a college or two here in this little backwater, you know.
Anne
Vicki Robinson
>Did I tell you guys about her fellowship? She was awarded a full scholarship to
>study theater in England next fall. We're so proud of her!
That's wonderful!
Vicki
--
Just to think I used to worry about things like that.
Used to worry 'bout rich and skinny
'til I wound up poor and fat.
-Delbert McClinton
jane
>
>We have a college or two here in this little backwater, you know.
>
>Anne
Actually, I think you're already on this list.
jane
jane
>*opinion*.
>Lori
That makes absolutely no sense to me. People have opinions about everything.
Some are well thought out, carefully considered. Some are based on experience.
Some are nutty shit that people come up with off the top of their heads.
Maybe you are using a definition of "valid" that is unique to you.
An opinion is "valid" if it's sound, cogent, logical, well-reasoned, related to
fact. Other opinions may be formulated in ignorance, without much reasoning or
consideration. Maybe they are knee-jerk reactions to fears. Maybe they are
simply necessary to the individual to support a shaky belief structure.
jane
jane
>
>Wendy
>
No kidding? When?
jane
jane
>>What's the deal?
>
>Nothing new.
>
>
>~~Geri~~
Oh. Well my perception is that you've been coming up with wildly random shit
the last few days that could only be intended as inflammatory. OTOH, maybe
you're the same as always, and I'm just not in the mood for you. I'll just KF
you for a bit.
jane
Wendy
> >I've met Kevin. He lives about 40 minutes drive away from us.
Ages ago now. Barclay, Madi and I drove down and met him and his adorable
daughter and we all went out for lunch.
Wendy
Melissa
>
>I've met Kevin. He lives about 40 minutes drive away from us.
>
>Wendy
I met Kevin gee maybe 4 years ago now. His daughter has probably grown a foot
taller since!
Deb Riel
>
> So, look, Lee's considering Clark. Her father thinks it isn't a good enough
> school, but she wants a good psych program, and I think it's worth checking
> out. Is there any chance that she can have lunch with your son and his GF and
> get the scoop on Worcester? What are the odds?
> jane
Our computers are down at work, so I'm googling today.
Jane, when is she planning to come? They're probably not entirely
representative of the everyday kids in Worcester so she might get a
skewed view. If she likes loud, underground music of all types and
kids with eccentric viewpoints they'll be fine. I'll run it by them,
although lunch is a bit early in the day for my kid--he usually sleeps
from about 2-2 on weekends... Lee, you, your ex, whoever, are all
certainly welcome to stop by my house while in the area.
Speaking of Clark, I have to brag a bit. My ex was talking to the
photography teacher at Clark, where my son currently has a little show
up. He asked if it might be possible for my son to take one of his
courses while still in high school. He said that he'd do whatever he
could to get him in, because anyone who works with images the way my
son does, should be able to get into his course. He's remarked that
he's seen a lot of beginning photographers doing similar things to my
son's work, but that he hasn't seen anyone approach it quite the same
way, and he was impressed. This guy is one of Worcester's photography
gurus (the other one being my son's current teacher) so it's something
to be proud of! I hope he decides to pursue that course, and not just
blow it off. It could be a real boost for him.
Deb R.
Deb Riel
> I have a friend who works at Clark (teaches there). He doesn't have a
> lot good to say about it. He calls it a "pseudo-university."
Interesting. Has he been there for a long time?
Clark has always been the place to go for psych and geography. They
do a lot of good things for the city and the urban neighborhood where
they're located. I spent a year in their MBA program, and worked my
butt off. However, my ex works there (as a carpenter) and he has
unflattering names to call it as well (but he'd probably say those
things no matter where he worked--I'm digressing). Could be Clark's
riding on its reputation, a lot of places do that. I'd be happy to
have my son attend though (putting aside the free tuition aspect of
it) because I think he'd like it there.
And, c'mon, Jimi Hendrix played at Clark!
Deb R.
heather m.
Heather
"Melissa" <laa...@aol.comspamzap> wrote in message
news:20040305231738...@mb-m21.aol.com...
> >
> >>Italian Literature?
> >
> >What does she want to do for a career?
> >
> >
> >~~Geri~~
> >
>
> Something in Theater probably. She's majoring in English right now with a
> minor in theater.
>
> Did I tell you guys about her fellowship? She was awarded a full
scholarship to
> study theater in England next fall. We're so proud of her!
>
> *AND* now we have a good excuse to go to England.
heather m.
This is one of the things about this group that has been so valuable to me
in life. It has taught me and made me grow in this respect.
Heather
jane
>representative of the everyday kids in Worcester so she might get a
>skewed view. If she likes loud, underground music of all types and
>kids with eccentric viewpoints they'll be fine.
Deb, I don't know what to say. I have no idea what Lee and your son would make
of each other. OTOH, the both eat low carb diets and like photography. OTOH,
she looks like Julia Stiles in Mona Lisa Smile half the time, and I never have
any idea what music she'll listen to next. The other day, listening to 'You
Can't Touch This,' she turned to me and said, "Mom, the man's a genius." I was
just thinking that your son and his friends know what Worcester is like.
>Speaking of Clark, I have to brag a bit. My ex was talking to the
>photography teacher at Clark, where my son currently has a little show
>up.
Well, this is fabulous. How impressive! How long will it be up? It would be
so perfect if it were still up in a couple of weeks. Then Lee could check out
Clark, and she and her father could check out your son's photos. They bond
over photography.
jane
>
>Deb R.
Deb Riel
> Ooh! My ex-MIL (who is a nurse practitioner :-D) has traveled to Ireland,
> like, 5 times in the past two years, maybe even more, I'm not sure. She
> goes on this travel deal that only costs *$400.* and pays for all of your
> hotel rooms. The thing is, though, you have to drive (optional I think)
> wherever you want to go, and the bill still pays for your rooms. A road
> trip vacation, kinda. All you have to pay for, besides the initial cost, is
> your meals and rental car. She said if she ever decides to go to Scotland,
> all she'll do is pay for the Ireland trip package, and just sail on the boat
> over to Scotland. Pretty cool.
>
> Heather
>
blast. The airfare was reasonable, there are B&Bs to stay in all over
and there's lots to see (even during the height of the foot and mouth
disease problem). We traveled from Galway to Connemara, Sligo,
Donnegal then into Northern Ireland to Derry, Antrim and Belfast and
back to Dublin. Wonderful trip. Even better, he did all the planning
and driving (I don't do manual shift).
Deb R.
Geri and sometimes Brian
>you for a bit.
Cool.
~~Geri~~
Geri and sometimes Brian
>Donnegal then into Northern Ireland to Derry, Antrim and Belfast and
>back to Dublin. Wonderful trip.
My sister lives in Sligo. The cool thing is that I could stay with her - their
house is quite nice.
~~Geri~~
The Watsons
> They amount to exactly what your opinions on the subject, or anyone else's
> opinion on the subject. They amount to exactly what anyone wishes them to
> amount to. If you agree with them, the opinions carry great weight, if
you
> disagree, they mean squat.
*nods*
> Oh, I completely agree with you here. I'm not the be all on anything,
> anymore than anyone here is. All we are is people on a public newsgroup,
> giving our opinions and talking about a variety of subjects.
and here i was thinking it was them voices in my head...........;)
Jess
ni...@impactwp.com
news:20040305231738...@mb-m21.aol.com...
> >
> >>Italian Literature?
> >
> >What does she want to do for a career?
> >
> >
> >~~Geri~~
> >
>
> Something in Theater probably. She's majoring in English right now with a
> minor in theater.
>
> Did I tell you guys about her fellowship? She was awarded a full
scholarship to
> study theater in England next fall. We're so proud of her!
>
> *AND* now we have a good excuse to go to England.
> Love,
> Melissa
You are so lucky that a: i am a forgiving soul and b: that you remembered to
mention my name later in this thread or I might have to totally bitch slap
you for the above!
Nikki
ni...@impactwp.com
news:Iwd2c.23768$aT1....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> like, 5 times in the past two years, maybe even more, I'm not sure. She
> goes on this travel deal that only costs *$400.* and pays for all of your
> hotel rooms. The thing is, though, you have to drive (optional I think)
> wherever you want to go, and the bill still pays for your rooms. A road
> trip vacation, kinda. All you have to pay for, besides the initial cost,
is
> your meals and rental car. She said if she ever decides to go to
Scotland,
> all she'll do is pay for the Ireland trip package, and just sail on the
boat
> over to Scotland. Pretty cool.
>
> Heather
Geri, I've not done much of Ireland but what I did see was on the East
Coast - you have to go to Glendalough, quite simply one of the most
beautiful places I've ever seen. See about half way down
http://www.nikkiandroger.org.uk/ireland/index3.html through pages
index6.html.
And Scotland is great too, despite my Irish surname I'm half Scottish - my
Irish great grandmother moved to Scotland and my paternal grandfather was
born there. My father is full Scottish blood but as his parents left
Scotland under a bit of a cloud he was born and bred in England, as was I.
My family is near Glasgow, a great city, Edinburgh is beautiful also -
especially the castle.
The point I want to make really is plan to do as much as you can. It is SO
small over here, I don't really think you can comprehend it - I STILL can't
get my head around the size of the States. I live in the centre of England
(near Birmingham and East Midlands airports). I can fly to Dublin in 45
mins. I can probably fly to Glasgow in half an hour. One can drive from
Scotland, say Glasgow or somewhere more near the border to the South coast
of England in about 5 or 6 hours. Nothing. I can fly from Birmingham to
Paris in an hour. In fact from here I could probably drive it in 6 hours.
You see what I'm saying? For you it's all going to be so close, you'll be
able to fit lots in. There are lots of British air companies now that just
do european flights or local flights and they can be so cheap. See
http://www.mytravellite.com/skylights/html/home2.htm or
http://www.bmibaby.com/bmibaby/en-gb/index.aspx for examples. I think I flew
to Dublin from the Midlands for about 60 pounds or 100 dollars-ish.
Let me know if you're ever making travel plans and want some help.
Nikki
ni...@impactwp.com
> >>Yeah SO, BM and I are probably all a bit jealous. :)
> >
> >Yeah, but you can go and visit her. I hope I can figure out how to visit
my
> >sister in Ireland and see some of Scotland before they move back.
> >
> >~~Geri~~
>
> Melissa
> "The old Tom didn't poison your fish either!"
> -Carson Kressley, from Queer Eye
OK now you've saved your ass. All is forgiven. Good job because I'm going to
be over there in 5 days so a bitch slap could have been a real one! As it is
I think I'll send you to buy wine. That's chore enough and will stress you
out enough (getting the right one) that I'll feel you've paid :-)
Nikki
jane
>daughter and we all went out for lunch.
>
>Wendy
I had so much fun meeting Kevin. My DH had a good time, too. He's not a big
socializer, my DH. And he's always been a little hostile to the internet.
Meeting Merrie was such a pleasure that after a couple of "you want me to go
where to do what's" he was game for driving a hundred miles to meet Kevin et.
al. Since then he has this idea that I spend my cyberlife having fascinating
discussions with beautiful, charming, thoughtful, intelligent, and gracious
people from all over the world. Which, of course, I do.
jane
The Watsons
> > *IMO*, and that's all it's ever been, an opinion, which is
> >just as valid as the opinion of anyone else here,
>
> Validity is an entirely different matter.
and it's up to you to decide the validity of that...
Jess
The Watsons
> Oh shit.
>
just keep it off my fans, thank you...
Jess
Deb Riel
> The notion that he didn't have character was just silly, as well as mean
> spirited. Deb you don't need to defend your son's actions to anyone on this
> ng. It bothers me that Lori's comments might have made you feel that the need
> to. Maybe I'm putting to much of my own feelings into this but the direction
> that this is going really bothers me.
>
> Lori's opinions of anyone's parenting skills or children amount to very little.
> She's not the end all be all on character, none of us are. I guess what I'm
> saying is that I hope you don't take any of these comments to heart. From
> everything I've read about your son, he sounds like a fine young man who will
> grow up with many of the same qualities that I love about his mother.
I'm still having to get here via google, so I'm reading everything out
of order today.
Thanks. Lori's comments don't make me feel the need to defend as much
as the need to point out the holes in the arguments. They get under
my skin a bit, but I'm so philosophically different from Lori that I
don't take it to heart.
My son will get it eventually. He's one of the most stubborn people I
know, but he thinks about things and I value that more than blind
obedience.
Deb R.
Geri and sometimes Brian
>you for the above!
Do it! Do it! Chick fight!
~~Geri~~
Geri and sometimes Brian
Thanks for the info! I will! (I am the kind of traveler who likes to go off
the beaten path and see the countryside. Putting me behind the wheel of a car
over there could be highly entertaining.)
~~Geri~~
heather m.
<ni...@impactwp.com> wrote in message
news:10785885...@ananke.eclipse.net.uk...
> And Scotland is great too, despite my Irish surname I'm half Scottish -
Ooh, we're cousins! Does this mean we can cuss together? :-D
McEwen...although we're a broken clan. How scandalous! I think we have
remnants of a castle somewhere in Scotland.
. I can fly from Birmingham to
> Paris in an hour. In fact from here I could probably drive it in 6 hours.
> You see what I'm saying?
Oh I just hate you! I wish *I* could scoot to Paris in an hour!
Heather
heather m.
"Geri and sometimes Brian" <gple...@aol.comGOBIGRED> wrote in message
news:20040306110713...@mb-m14.aol.com...
My most favorite thing in the whole wide world is to travel by myself.
Heather
Geri and sometimes Brian
Same here. In Europe I would be as far from any tourist attractions (and
France) as possible.
~~Geri~~
Deb Riel
> Deb, I don't know what to say. I have no idea what Lee and your son would make
> of each other. OTOH, the both eat low carb diets and like photography. OTOH,
> she looks like Julia Stiles in Mona Lisa Smile half the time, and I never have
> any idea what music she'll listen to next. The other day, listening to 'You
> Can't Touch This,' she turned to me and said, "Mom, the man's a genius." I was
> just thinking that your son and his friends know what Worcester is like.
Just let me know when she'll be around. I'll see if he and his GF
will be around at the same time. He loves to play DJ and show off his
photography, so it all could be pretty cool. Are you making the trip,
too, or just Lee?
> Well, this is fabulous. How impressive! How long will it be up? It would be
> so perfect if it were still up in a couple of weeks. Then Lee could check out
> Clark, and she and her father could check out your son's photos. They bond
> over photography.
I'll try to find out and let you know. I asked him yesterday, but he
had no idea, naturally.
Deb R.
Vicki Robinson
>>Vicki, Melissa, any chance of hooking her up in Mt Holyoke? When is spring
>>break for them?
>
>Good questions. I think she's planning to spend spring break with
>friends in Boston, but I'll ask.
Spring break at MHC is March 12 - 20 this year. When would Lee be
making the trip if she were to come this way?
Vicki
--
Just to think I used to worry about things like that.
Used to worry 'bout rich and skinny
'til I wound up poor and fat.
-Delbert McClinton
Melissa
>mention my name later in this thread or I might have to totally bitch slap
>you for the above!
>
>Nikki
I worded that way to annoy you. :)
Melissa
>Nikki
Anne would kill me. :)
jane
>making the trip if she were to come this way?
>
>Vicki
April 2 - 10.
jane
Vicki Robinson
I'll find out. You just want someone to take her around the campus
and tell her what it's like?
Lori
"Amy Lou" <amyl...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:0Td2c.89407$Wa.8...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...> news:3lc2c.277$G87...@fe03.usenetserver.com...
> >
> > "Deborah M Riel" <dr...@wpi.edu> wrote in message
> > news:c2a4oc$hcn$1...@bigboote.WPI.EDU...
> > > In article <d%T1c.1571$xL....@fe03.usenetserver.com>,
> > > Lori <real...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >Good for him! Now *that's* character!
> > >
> > > Well, of course he has character. He always has had character. He's
> > > learning the value of thinking for himself. He's internalizing the
> > > messages. And he's still talking to me about these things
> > > because he still feels I'm approachable and have credibility with him.
> > > I can't emphasize enough how valuable that is to both of us.
> > >
> >
> >
> > Of course he has character, everyone does in one way or another. Look,
> I'm
> > obviously expressing something badly, as I'm not getting across *at all*
> > what I intend to get across. It's one thing to say someone has good
> > character, it's another to say they are behaving in a way that expresses
> > that character. *IMO*, and that's all it's ever been, an opinion, which
> is
> > just as valid as the opinion of anyone else here, someone who
deliberately
> > chooses to help a friend go against the authority of their parents, is
> *not*
> > behaving as one with good character. someone who tells their friend
that
> > regardless of whether or not they agree with the friend's parent's rule,
> > they will not help them go against it and deceive their parent, *is*
> > behaving as one with good character. I think what your son just did by
> > telling his girlfriend he would not help her to deceive her mom is
> > wonderfully mature.
>
> Lori, it was your opinion that Deb's son is not of good character because
he
> didn't help his friend obey her mom. Now that he is helping his friend to
> obey he is wonderfully mature. It seems to me that you put a very high
value
> on parental authority. How does this affect your relationship with SS's
mom?
Very well, actually. She knows that we do now, and always have, maintained
to him that he is to obey her. And you know, now that he is living with us,
she is doing the same in return. She has even, on some of her few visits to
him, if he's wanted to do something, asked him first if it's something we
allow. From the beginning, even during the most difficult times in trying
to work with her, we *always* made sure he knew absolutely that as far as we
were concerned, he was to obey his mother. He's never heard anything
different from either his dad or me. Ever. He knows he has three main
authority figures he is to obey. And yes, we do things differently, but we
also have to accept that and make sure he knows that mom makes the rules for
her house, and we make them for ours. And yes, you're right, I am a firm
believer in parental authority.
Lori
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Lori
> >I disagree. *Everyone's* opinion is valid. that's why it's called
> >*opinion*.
> >Lori
>
> That makes absolutely no sense to me. People have opinions about
everything.
> Some are well thought out, carefully considered. Some are based on
experience.
> Some are nutty shit that people come up with off the top of their heads.
>
> Maybe you are using a definition of "valid" that is unique to you.
> An opinion is "valid" if it's sound, cogent, logical, well-reasoned,
related to
> fact. Other opinions may be formulated in ignorance, without much
reasoning or
> consideration. Maybe they are knee-jerk reactions to fears. Maybe they
are
> simply necessary to the individual to support a shaky belief structure.
And some people decide the opinion of someone else is invalid simply because
they disagree with it... When I say it's as valid as anyone else's, I'm
saying that just because you disagree, or it doesn't fit in with your
worldview, that doesn't make it wrong. Just different. It would be a very,
very boring world if everyone had exactly the same opinions, don't you
think?
ni...@impactwp.com
"Geri and sometimes Brian" <gple...@aol.comGOBIGRED> wrote in message
Same here! Oops I forgot the French thing. OK so I can fly to Spain in two
hours. Howzat?!
N
ni...@impactwp.com
"Geri and sometimes Brian" <gple...@aol.comGOBIGRED> wrote in message
I think I might just have to see that!
Nikki
ni...@impactwp.com
Yup! So amusing for me though.
Nikki
heather m.
>
> And some people decide the opinion of someone else is invalid simply
because
> they disagree with it... When I say it's as valid as anyone else's, I'm
> saying that just because you disagree, or it doesn't fit in with your
> worldview, that doesn't make it wrong. Just different. It would be a
very,
> very boring world if everyone had exactly the same opinions, don't you
> think?
> Lori
Well, if we saw an animal with feathers and a beak and wings and beady
little eyes that hopped around on two legs and sometimes flew and laid eggs
and I said it was a bird and you said it was a cow I would say that my
decision is based on alot more than just the fact that I disagree with you.
Heather
jane
>and tell her what it's like?
>
>Vicki
I want the part you don't get in the admissions office tour. I want someone
who can tell her what it's like there. What coffee shop stays open all night.
What departments and professors rock. Where people study when their roommates
are manic and where they party when their roommates are drones.
jane
Melissa
>they disagree with it... When I say it's as valid as anyone else's, I'm
>saying that just because you disagree, or it doesn't fit in with your
>worldview, that doesn't make it wrong. Just different. It would be a very,
>very boring world if everyone had exactly the same opinions, don't you
>think?
>Lori
>
It's not about disagreeing. I can think of many people on this ng and in my
own life whose opinions I disagree with but have great respect for. I can also
think of people who I agree with on many things, but whose opinions don't have
much validity to me. Worldview has nothing to do with it really.
One of my mentors from early on, and a very dear friend was a career naval
officer and currently a teacher and museum educator. His worldview is about as
different from mine as it gets, and I don't think we agree on much of anything
culturally or politically. I love to discuss things with him though and have a
great respect for his opinions.
The Watsons
> I want the part you don't get in the admissions office tour. I want
someone
> who can tell her what it's like there. What coffee shop stays open all
night.
> What departments and professors rock. Where people study when their
roommates
> are manic and where they party when their roommates are drones.
one of my friends just clued me in that the department chairs are required
to keep the failure rates/dropout rates on each prof in their department,
and that you can get your hands on those rates if you wander in and ask for
'em....
Jess
Kathy Cole
> And some people decide the opinion of someone else is invalid simply
> because they disagree with it... When I say it's as valid as anyone
> else's, I'm saying that just because you disagree, or it doesn't fit
> in with your worldview, that doesn't make it wrong. Just different.
> It would be a very, very boring world if everyone had exactly the
> same opinions, don't you think?
Opinions about largely subjective items (liking particular movies,
disliking a fragrance, finding a color of fabric appealing, etc.) can
reasonably fall into the 'just different' camp. Opinions on topics for
which there are factual bases can be more or less informed, which means
that they're all not 'just different'.
Feelings, I'll agree with you. Opinions varies a great deal depending
on the topic.
Vicki Robinson
>one of my friends just clued me in that the department chairs are required
>to keep the failure rates/dropout rates on each prof in their department,
>and that you can get your hands on those rates if you wander in and ask for
>'em....
Which university? MHC? Maybe, I don't know. I do know that that
isn't the policy at all in every school, and those statistics, as
you've described them, are completely meaningless anyway.
The Watsons
"Vicki Robinson" <vjr...@xcski.com> wrote in message
news:c2gja3$q28$1...@allhats.xcski.com...
> Which university? MHC? Maybe, I don't know. I do know that that
> isn't the policy at all in every school, and those statistics, as
> you've described them, are completely meaningless anyway.
the one i go to, and those stats would show if any teachers had a really
high dropout/failure rate as compared to the others...*shrugs* 'twas just a
thought...
Jess
Lori
And if I were to say it was a cow, I hope someone would be dragging me in
for an eye exam, too! :-)
Amy Lou
"Lori" <real...@bigfoot.com> wrote in
From the beginning, even during the most difficult times in trying
> to work with her, we *always* made sure he knew absolutely that as far as
we
> were concerned, he was to obey his mother.
So what would happen if his mother told him he was not to eat meat because
it went against everything that she believed in? Would you expect him to
ignore her rule while he was at your house or would you go out of your way
to help him obey his mother? Im interested to know how you would deal with
things if you disagreed with mother's rule but still wanted him to obey her.
Amy
_calinda_
> "Lori" <real...@bigfoot.com> wrote in
>
> From the beginning, even during the most difficult times in
trying
>> to work with her, we *always* made sure he knew absolutely that
as
>> far as we were concerned, he was to obey his mother.
This, IMO is the type of thing that sets children up to be abused.
It sets them up to be unquestionably obediant regardless of what the
parent does. I know, because I was raised to be unquestionably
obediant, and wasn't strong enough (mentally) to stop the abuse
until I was a teenager. That gave my abuser many years to inflict
harm upon me, as well as my siblings.
Cal~
Amy Lou
"_calinda_" <calinda...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6o_2c.27689$aT1....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
It can be difficult to get children to put themselves first instead of doing
what an adult in authority says. I recently read my 5 and 8 year olds a book
called "Its ok to say no sometimes" and they were amazed at some of the
things that they are allowed to say no to. And sometimes children in the
same family can have different personalities and ways of handling things. My
8y/o would have more trouble saying no to an adult in authority than my 5
y/o would.
Amy
Vicki Robinson
>I'll find out. You just want someone to take her around the campus
>and tell her what it's like?
Stevie says, sure, come on, Lee can stay overnight on her floor if
she'd like. (Stevie has a sleeping bag, if Lee wants something softer
she'll have to bring an air mattress or something.) She says call
Admissions at MHC and ask about meal vouchers. She sounded really
pleased about it, and said that it's always fun to show "prospies"
("prostpectives") around.
And Melissa, she and Emily have two classes together, a film class and
a women's lit class.
Melissa
>And Melissa, she and Emily have two classes together, a film class and
>a women's lit class.
>
>Vicki
I've heard alot about the film class. Didn't know Em was taking Women's Lit
though.
jane
>
>>I'll find out. You just want someone to take her around the campus
>>and tell her what it's like?
>
>Stevie says, sure, come on, Lee can stay overnight on her floor if
>she'd like. (Stevie has a sleeping bag, if Lee wants something softer
>she'll have to bring an air mattress or something.) She says call
>Admissions at MHC and ask about meal vouchers. She sounded really
>pleased about it, and said that it's always fun to show "prospies"
>("prostpectives") around.
How incredibly sweet! I'll tell Lee.
>
>And Melissa, she and Emily have two classes together, a film class and
>a women's lit class.
That would be interesting. Lee's taking a film class, too.
jane
>
>Vicki
Lori
We would do as we have always done, make it clear that mom makes the rules
for her house, and we make the rules for our house. This was the way she
has always put it and we've been willing to go along, because it's
reasonable.
Lori
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Lori
"_calinda_" <calinda...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6o_2c.27689$aT1....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
The majority of parents are not abusive. We have taught our kids that there
are things nobody is ever allowed to do to them, no matter who they are. As
long as they are not being asked to do things other than follow the same
things we expect, they are to obey those we put in authority over them. For
example, when our respite sitter is here, it would hardly be fair to her if
the kids believed they did not have to obey her while she is in charge. We
expect that if one of the other adults at church, for example, tells them to
stop doing something they should not be doing, they are to obey without
question. those other adults expect the same of their kids if *we* tell
them to stop doing something. If one of our kids is disruptive in Sunday
School or Junior Church, we expect that when the teacher tells them to stop,
and to pay attention, they are to obey, period. I see nothing whatsoever
wrong with this. We have sense enough to not put them under even the
temporary authority of someone who we do not know holds to the same beliefs
as ours.
Lori
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Amy Lou
"Lori" <real...@bigfoot.com> wrote in >
> We would do as we have always done, make it clear that mom makes the rules
> for her house, and we make the rules for our house. This was the way she
> has always put it and we've been willing to go along, because it's
> reasonable.
What you are saying sounds very reasonable to me but I thought you were
going to say you'd help SS to obey his mother no matter what. You had me
going there for a while. :)
Amy
Brenna2b
We have sense enough to not put them under even the
temporary authority of someone who we do not know holds to the same beliefs
as ours.>>
Do you really think that any of the parents who had their children abused by
caretakers/authority figures ever felt differently than you on this? Can you
imagine a parent knowingly thinking "well, this guy seems squirmy, but I'll
leave my kids with him?" What about the problems the Catholic Church is having
these days? I'll bet those priests now in trouble seemed to share the same
beliefs as the parents of the children who were left in their care.
This kind of thinking upsets me because 1) it implies that the poor parents
whose children have been abused used poor judgment, whereas you would have
known better, and 2) It provides an unreal feeling of safety and immunity from
this tragedy that isn't realistic, no matter how careful a parent is in
choosing their children's temporary caretakers.
Bad people don't wear signs. We need to teach our kids to react individually
to actions, and use their own good sense, regardless of where an order comes
from.
Brenna