sneaky teen VENT
Deborah M Riel
battling bronchitis for the past week and I have very little energy
for teenaged bullshit.
My son's GFs mom only lets her get together with my son once or twice
a week. They used to see each other every day, and apparently her mom
thought she should be at home more. OK, not my call. But, twice in
the past year, they got together behind her mom's back and asked me to
give her a ride home. I didn't know she wasn't supposed to be at my
house until they asked me to stop a street away from her house so her
mom wouldn't see my car pull up. After the second time they did this,
I told them both I'd never do that again, so not to ask me.
Well, tonight my son asked me to "help him out" one last time by
giving her a ride almost home. I said no, that I would not go behind
her mother's back, and that he knew my position on that. I explained
that I would never respect another parent who knowingly did something
like that to me, and whether or not I agreed with his GF's mom's
rules, I absolutely would not be that disrespectful to her. I can
just imagine how often she'd let her daughter come over to our house
if I did sneak them around!
Well, he yelled, slammed, screamed in my face, generally carried on
like a possessed person and stormed out of the house. I'm pissed off.
I hate being treated like that, and I hate being put in that position.
It's also a really good illustration of why it doesn't work to forbid
teenage boyfriends and girlfriends to see each other--they *do* just
sneak around and find a way to do it anyway. I think her mom's wrong
on this--she's just losing a chance for her daughter to be open and
honest with her by grounding her all the time. But whether I think
she's right or wrong isn't the point. I *refuse* to lie for them
about it and it infuriates me that they expected me to do it.
Deb R.
Geri and sometimes Brian
>teenage boyfriends and girlfriends to see each other--they *do* just
>sneak around and find a way to do it anyway.
Maybe she (correctly) thinks her daughter should be spending the time on her
studies or with her family. I see nothing wrong with seeing a boyfriend only a
couple of nights a week, *especially* for teenagers. IMO, that is pretty
generous, especially if they see each other at school as well.
>Well, he yelled, slammed, screamed in my face, generally carried on
>like a possessed person and stormed out of the house.
Maybe he needs some attitude adjustment. If you take that kind of crap from
him, you just set yourself up to get more.
~~Geri~~
http://www.noblankchecks.com/
"The song "Omaha" by Counting Crows has nothing to do with the city. If you
need to talk about music, hum the Husker fight song and eat your steak."
--Nebraska Tourism Bureau
Melissa
>she's right or wrong isn't the point. I *refuse* to lie for them
>about it and it infuriates me that they expected me to do it.
>
>Deb R.
>
>
I'm sorry that it's been so rough Deb.
Love,
Melissa
"The old Tom didn't poison your fish either!"
-Carson Kressley, from Queer Eye
Deborah M Riel
Geri and sometimes Brian <gple...@aol.commotion> wrote:
>Maybe she (correctly) thinks her daughter should be spending the time on her
>studies or with her family. I see nothing wrong with seeing a boyfriend only a
>couple of nights a week, *especially* for teenagers. IMO, that is pretty
>generous, especially if they see each other at school as well.
I don't disagree with her mom, actually. But I still think it doesn't
work to *forbid* contact with grounding, threats, etc. It just plain
doesn't work to a parent's advantage, and doesn't promote honesty.
They don't see each other at school. My son goes to an all boys high
school and she home schools.
>Maybe he needs some attitude adjustment. If you take that kind of crap from
>him, you just set yourself up to get more.
If I was taking it, I'd have given in to him. He didn't get what he
wanted, which was the ride and having me aid him and his GF in
sneaking around. He thought I'd give in if he carried on enough. I
don't think he'll ask me to do that again, and I'm pretty sure at some
point he'll apologize. What kind of attitude adjustment were you
suggesting? He's 17, by the way, just so you know the age group
we're talking about.
Deborah M Riel
Melissa <laa...@aol.comspamzap> wrote:
>
>I'm sorry that it's been so rough Deb.
>Love,
>Melissa
Thanks. Sometimes I hate teenagers. Sometimes I hated them when I
*was* one, so why should I change my tune now? God, they're
difficult!
Deb R.
Deborah M Riel
Deborah M Riel <dr...@wpi.edu> wrote:
>If I was taking it, I'd have given in to him. He didn't get what he
>wanted, which was the ride and having me aid him and his GF in
>sneaking around. He thought I'd give in if he carried on enough. I
>don't think he'll ask me to do that again, and I'm pretty sure at some
>point he'll apologize. What kind of attitude adjustment were you
>suggesting? He's 17, by the way, just so you know the age group
>we're talking about.
oops--forgot to end and sign my own post. I was interrupted by a phone call
from my ex--my son's dad, so I got to vent to him. His response was
"maybe you should kill him--or maybe I should kill him." :-) I feel
a little better now. I didn't think my ex could *ever* make me feel
even remotely better...
Deb R.
Amy Lou
"Deborah M Riel" <dr...@wpi.edu> wrote in message
news:c13rqf$1blb$1...@bigboote.WPI.EDU...
But, twice in
> the past year, they got together behind her mom's back and asked me to
> give her a ride home.
Look at the bright side. They've only done this twice in the past year!
After the second time they did this,
> I told them both I'd never do that again, so not to ask me.
I would have done the same.
> Well, he yelled, slammed, screamed in my face, generally carried on
> like a possessed person and stormed out of the house. I'm pissed off.
> I hate being treated like that, and I hate being put in that position.
Yep. It was not a nice place to be.
>
> It's also a really good illustration of why it doesn't work to forbid
> teenage boyfriends and girlfriends to see each other--they *do* just
> sneak around and find a way to do it anyway. I think her mom's wrong
> on this--she's just losing a chance for her daughter to be open and
> honest with her by grounding her all the time.
I'm with ya.
But whether I think
> she's right or wrong isn't the point. I *refuse* to lie for them
> about it and it infuriates me that they expected me to do it.
Life can be tough sometimes. I hope you feel better real soon.
Amy
Geri and sometimes Brian
>we're talking about.
I thought he was a couple of years younger. OTOH, you are presumably in
control of things like cars, privileges, etc., if he is still living in your
home.
Deborah M Riel
Amy Lou <amyl...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>Look at the bright side. They've only done this twice in the past year!
Well, they've only tricked me into giving her a ride almost home
twice--I'm certain they've gotten together at other times when she's
not supposed to more than twice. I have to keep reminding myself of
how I was when I was 17. That doesn't mean I take it from him now,
just that I realize he's not necessarily going to be a perfectly
behaved person. It's all part of the job.
>Life can be tough sometimes. I hope you feel better real soon.
>
Thanks. If I could get rid of this hacking cough that's keeping me up
all night, it'd be easier.
Deb R.
Deborah M Riel
Geri and sometimes Brian <gple...@aol.commotion> wrote:
>I thought he was a couple of years younger. OTOH, you are presumably in
>control of things like cars, privileges, etc., if he is still living in your
>home.
>
I'm really in charge of cars since he doesn't drive. Well, he just
came home a half hour early, so maybe he's blown it off by now.
I just hope he doesn't ask me to do that again.
Deb R.
>
>
jane
>like a possessed person and stormed out of the house. I'm pissed off.
>I hate being treated like that, and I hate being put in that position
I'm sorry, Deb. I hope you guys work it out soon. "No" doesn't always go down
well.
jane
ni...@impactwp.com
"jane" <janel...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040220011457...@mb-m18.aol.com...
Yeah I'm with you Deb! SS is only 14 but already doing all of this and it
makes me want to get the frying pan out while he's asleep.
Personally, if I were you I probably would have followed up with 'and if you
yell at me like that I'm not going to be driving you *anywhere* again pal so
I'd buck up your attitude unless walking is your favourite pastime' or
something equally wise :-)
Seriously, he has no right to get mad over this. He already knew your
position, it had been clearly explained. None of this was a surprise - in
which case I could understand adolescent frustration boiling over. I refuse
to allow my kids to shout at me, and I'd be withdrawing favours if it kept
occurring.
Nikki
Deborah M Riel
<ni...@impactwp.com> wrote:
>
>"jane" <janel...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20040220011457...@mb-m18.aol.com...
>> I'm sorry, Deb. I hope you guys work it out soon. "No" doesn't always go
>down
>> well.
With him, "no" never goes down well unless he's the one saying it. He
could argue and nag the most strong-willed person ever into a puddle
of submission when he's in top form. If he liked school, I'd
encourage him to be a lawyer.
He apologized. We're all set 'til the next time.
>Personally, if I were you I probably would have followed up with 'and if you
>yell at me like that I'm not going to be driving you *anywhere* again pal so
>I'd buck up your attitude unless walking is your favourite pastime' or
>something equally wise :-)
I did tell him if he wasn't home at a certain time he could count on
doing nothing at all this weekend. He was home a half hour early.
Deb R.
The Watsons
> With him, "no" never goes down well unless he's the one saying it. He
> could argue and nag the most strong-willed person ever into a puddle
> of submission when he's in top form. If he liked school, I'd
> encourage him to be a lawyer.
*snorts coffee* gee, i never heard that one...;D
Jess
Anne Robotti
<warped...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>"Deborah M Riel" <dr...@wpi.edu> wrote in message
>news:c155g6$20lv$1...@bigboote.WPI.EDU...
>> With him, "no" never goes down well unless he's the one saying it. He
>> could argue and nag the most strong-willed person ever into a puddle
>> of submission when he's in top form.
You know something though? My SD is the same way, she's gotten that
way from *years* of whining/cajoling/arguing/demanding her way into
things that her parents at first said no to. And it absolutely makes
my blood BOIL when DH gives in to her after two hours of it because
he's sick of listening to her. Can you say "intermittent rewards"
honey? Can you say "learned response" honey? Can you say "completely
fucked up and lazy parenting" honey? Canya? WELL? CANYA?
I'm sorry, what was the question?
Anne
The Watsons
"Anne Robotti" <arob...@deletemelscomm.net> wrote in message
news:92ve30ljc9cs2vqkq...@4ax.com...
> You know something though? My SD is the same way, she's gotten that
> way from *years* of whining/cajoling/arguing/demanding her way into
> things that her parents at first said no to. And it absolutely makes
> my blood BOIL when DH gives in to her after two hours of it because
> he's sick of listening to her. Can you say "intermittent rewards"
> honey? Can you say "learned response" honey? Can you say "completely
> fucked up and lazy parenting" honey? Canya? WELL? CANYA?
>
> I'm sorry, what was the question?
*LOL* unhhunh, and don't try and tell me you weren't the same at that age
either...:p
Jess
Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe
> I'm mad at my son and I need to get it out somewhere. Plus I've been
> battling bronchitis for the past week and I have very little energy
> for teenaged bullshit.
>
I understand that. I lost my voice last Wednesday. I'm still working
on getting it back. It's difficult to discuss things with stubborn
teenagers (or with a stubborn husband) when you have no voice. ;-)
> My son's GFs mom only lets her get together with my son once or twice
> a week. They used to see each other every day, and apparently her mom
> thought she should be at home more. OK, not my call.
They'd really think they had it rough around our place. We have a "No
Solo Dating" rule. If OS and his girlfriend want to spend time
together, it has to be at our house with us around, at her house with
her mom and friends around, or at a group function. Same with YD and
her boyfriend.
> But, twice in
> the past year, they got together behind her mom's back and asked me to
> give her a ride home. I didn't know she wasn't supposed to be at my
> house until they asked me to stop a street away from her house so her
> mom wouldn't see my car pull up. After the second time they did this,
> I told them both I'd never do that again, so not to ask me.
My kids would get a "discussion" on how they were being disrespectful
of the other parent. Remember the first of our two household rules?
"Treat yourself and others with courtesy and respect."
>
> Well, tonight my son asked me to "help him out" one last time by
> giving her a ride almost home. I said no, that I would not go behind
> her mother's back, and that he knew my position on that. I explained
> that I would never respect another parent who knowingly did something
> like that to me, and whether or not I agreed with his GF's mom's
> rules, I absolutely would not be that disrespectful to her. I can
> just imagine how often she'd let her daughter come over to our house
> if I did sneak them around!
Again, he'd think I was awful. I'd help them, alright. Right up to
the girl's front door and into the house for a talk with her mom.
Both kids would be involved in a discussion about respect and
courtesy.
My methods are different than yours, but I agree that your son's
behavior, both toward you and toward his gf's mom, is inappropriate.
Kitten
Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe
Now that OS is starting to act decent, wouldn't you know YD would take
a turn.
She's been doing really well, behaving in a more and more responsible
manner, calmly discussing things with us when she disagrees, etc. So
we decided to reward her new sense of responsibility by allowing her
to spend more time in town with OS's gf.
YD went with OS's gf to a conference weekend before last. During the
conference, YD found out about that the gf's church (Baha'i Center,
actually) has a weekly drama group, held on Sundays. Since it's on
our way home from church, we dropped her off there this past Sunday,
figuring she can give it a shot.
Sunday evening, OS's gf spent the night with us, then Monday YD went
with OS's gf to a biology lab. (OS's gf also homeschools.) When
Chewy went to pick up YD, it was to find that she'd purchased black
nail polish (a definite no-no around here, belonging in that "grown,
gone, and out on your own" category) and had painted her nails.
When they got home, she told me about it. I told her that it was
inappropriate, but that we would discuss it later, as we were all too
tired to discuss it last night. This morning, I made her give me the
nail polish and take off what was on her nails before time to leave
for her babysitting job. (Oh, what a wicked, evil witch I am!)
On the way to her job, I told her Chewy and I were still deciding how
to deal with the issue, but that we weren't happy that she'd knowingly
and intentionally done something that was against what we feel is
appropriate. I also told her that it was the intentional disrespect
for us and our guidelines that was the most disappointing. I pointed
out that by what I understand of the tenets of the Baha'i faith, if
any of the people she'd been with had offered any activities that we
find inappropriate, they would have understood is she simply told them
that *her* participation those activities would be disrespectful to
our faith and to our household.
She gave me one of those looks that said she thought I was being
horrendously mean. I responded that I felt that I wasn't being mean,
that calling her nasty things and/or hitting her would be mean. She
said we have different definitions of "mean," to which I responded
with, "I guess it would have been mean if I'd called Ms. Kristi last
night and told her you couldn't babysit today."
We'll see how she's doing this evening when she gets home from
babysitting.
I wonder how she's going to react when she finds out that Chewy now
feels that makeup is inappropriate (rather than simply unnecessary, as
he's felt as long as I've known him) but is going to leave the makeup
guidelines to me.
Kitten
Geri and sometimes Brian
>the girl's front door and into the house for a talk with her mom.
>Both kids would be involved in a discussion about respect and
>courtesy.
>
probably get you more than some eye-rolling from a teen, but having it with the
other kid and both sets of parent might be embarrassing enough for all involved
that it might really have an impact.
Geri and sometimes Brian
>feels that makeup is inappropriate (rather than simply unnecessary, as
>he's felt as long as I've known him) but is going to leave the makeup
>guidelines to me.
>
Anne Robotti
sometimes Brian) wrote:
>>Again, he'd think I was awful. I'd help them, alright. Right up to
>>the girl's front door and into the house for a talk with her mom.
>>Both kids would be involved in a discussion about respect and
>>courtesy.
>>
>This is good! Normally I would think the whole "discussion" thing wouldn't
>probably get you more than some eye-rolling from a teen, but having it with the
>other kid and both sets of parent might be embarrassing enough for all involved
>that it might really have an impact.
I dragged SD home from the mall on Saturday, and since I was
everybody's ride home everybody had a choice between coming with us
and taking the bus.
I don't think she'll slam out of the house after being disrespectful
to her father again for a long while.
Yeah, I know, how she treats her father is out of my circle. But
letting her get away with pissy disrespect toward anybody always
backfires on me somehow.
Anne
Amy Lou
"Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe" <kit...@whitepine.com> wrote in message
news:454a033.04022...@posting.google.com...
> dr...@wpi.edu (Deborah M Riel) wrote in message
news:<c13uut$1d9m$2...@bigboote.WPI.EDU>...
> > In article <20040219220543...@mb-m01.aol.com>,
> > Melissa <laa...@aol.comspamzap> wrote:
> > >
> > >I'm sorry that it's been so rough Deb.
> > >Love,
> > >Melissa
> >
> > Thanks. Sometimes I hate teenagers. Sometimes I hated them when I
> > *was* one, so why should I change my tune now? God, they're
> > difficult!
>
>
> Now that OS is starting to act decent, wouldn't you know YD would take
> a turn.
>
Hee hee Im so glad I only have boys to worry about. :) Peer pressure is such
a powerful thing during the teenage years.
Amy
Wendy
"Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe" <kit...@whitepine.com> wrote in message
news:454a033.04022...@posting.google.com...
>
> feels that makeup is inappropriate (rather than simply unnecessary, as
> he's felt as long as I've known him)
Tell him he doesn't have to wear any then.
but is going to leave the makeup
> guidelines to me.
You don't have to, either.
What are you going to let her rebel on? What is she allowed to view
differently from her parents? How does she get to experiment to find her own
identity?
I think you're mean, too.
Wendy
jane
Noooooooooooo.
Okay. I was thinking about the other Wendy talking to her SO about the
lunches. I think what I like best about ASSP is that it gives me an outlet for
talking about other people's parenting that helps me keep my mouth shut at
home. For example, I don't think a single thing crosses his kids' lips that
crosses my kid's lips. Tomatoes and peanut butter may be exceptions, and
there is some variation among his kids, but he and I couldn't be futher apart
on children's diets. The only thing we agree on is what annoyed Wendy, we
refuse to argue with them about food.
So I was thinking how to say that to OP Wendy, that ASSP isn't a place that
agrees with you or solves your problems, it's a place where you can get out all
those things about parenting that your mate just doesn't want to hear. I
didn't post any of that because the example I was stuck on was Kitten.
Kitten, are you looking to actually discuss this stuff? I can't imagine
anything I'm less willing to do than participate in a "family date" with a male
teen in musth. I don't know what your deal with makeup is, but I do know that
your kids are at an age when "because that's our family (religion's) rule" is
an inadequate response. I don't have anything against home schooling per se,
but I'm afraid that you're micromanaging your kids' lives to the point where
they can't help but explode. I'd explode now, never mind when I was a teen.
And you're losing it too. How could you get in a pissing match over nail
polish? Mean is mean whether or not you were right about something else. You
say you want your kids to talk about their feelings instead of acting out, but
you get angry, defensive, and (judging by the makeup comment above) vindictive
when they do.
jane
Geri and sometimes Brian
>your kids are at an age when "because that's our family (religion's) rule" is
>an inadequate response.
Why?
~~Geri~~
jane
Because it's a nonanswer. It implies that you don't believe it is right. If
you did believe it was right for some reason, you'd say, "because the reason
for the rule."
jane
>
>~~Geri~~
Deborah M Riel
Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe <kit...@whitepine.com> wrote:
>
>Again, he'd think I was awful. I'd help them, alright. Right up to
>the girl's front door and into the house for a talk with her mom.
>Both kids would be involved in a discussion about respect and
>courtesy.
>
I can't see myself doing that. Something about it feels like the
wrong approach to me--I can't quite put my finger on it. I'd be mad
if some other parent marched up to my door with my kid and wanted to
have a discussion with me, even if it involved that parent's kid as
well. It feels presumptuous--like you're assuming the role that the
other parent should be taking with her own child, and making the
decisions about what is right and wrong for all of you. I can see
giving the other parent a "heads up" about what's going on, if you
think it's necessary, and then letting the other parent deal with her
own kid the way she feels she should. I can see doing what I did do,
and telling both kids not to involve me in that way, and having a
discussion with my own son about how it's disrespectful to his GF's
mom, but I draw the line at forceably involving her in our discussion.
I don't think I'd be thankful if another parent did that to me, it
would just serve to deflect my anger at my son's actions onto the
person who was assuming what should be my role with him.
Deb R.
jane
>to her father again for a long while.
>
>Yeah, I know, how she treats her father is out of my circle. But
>letting her get away with pissy disrespect toward anybody always
>backfires on me somehow.
>
>Anne
You know, toots, they have enough trouble communicating without you blocking
off what they do have.
jane
Deborah M Riel
Geri and sometimes Brian <gple...@aol.commotion> wrote:
Probably because at a certain age, people naturally start to question
and rebel against the authority figures in their lives, if only to
figure out what their own values are. You (the teen) can't sort it all out if
you never ask questions. And if you ask questions and get the
"because I said so" answer all the time, without any information to
back it up or give it validity, you have nothing to help you to figure
out your own values. You, in your frustration, start to think it's
all just so stupid after awhile and rebel even more.
Deb R.
awhile.
jane
>wrong approach to me--I can't quite put my finger on it.
How about the humiliating other people to get them to do what you want part?
>I can see
>giving the other parent a "heads up" about what's going on, if you
>think it's necessary,
I agree, but I really hate doing this. You have to guess what they'll do to
decide whether telling them is the right thing to do. If you know they'll beat
their kid, you don't tell them. If you know they'll try to resolve it in a
sensible way, you do. I wouldn't have said anything in your situation.
OTOH, one of Lee's friends' parents called me a couple of years ago and told me
that she read in her daughter's journal that Lee was smoking crack or
something. I knew Lee wasn't smoking crack, but I was touched that she screwed
herself up to call. Of course I was horrified about her reading her daughter's
journal.
I'm rambling. The problem with the heads up is that it's hard to be confident
that you're doing right thing, when you have to deal with a parent who already
doesn't know what is going on with her kid.
jane
Geri and sometimes Brian
>you did believe it was right for some reason, you'd say, "because the reason
>for the rule."
I am not totally sure I am following you on this. When you are a kid, the only
reason you may (though not always or necessarily) get to have is "because my
parents say so". If the kid doesn't believe the reason the parents give, such
as the family religion, that "because my parents say so" is always there to
fall back on.
~~Geri~~
Geri and sometimes Brian
>"because I said so" answer all the time, without any information to
>back it up or give it validity, you have nothing to help you to figure
>out your own values. You, in your frustration, start to think it's
>all just so stupid after awhile and rebel even more.
I supposed this is a YMMV thing. IMO, if something is a rule set down by the
parents, it trumps all of that teen search for identity, etc., etc. The
parents don't even necessarily have to have the same rule. I do think by the
time the kids are teenagers, a wise parent will explain (once) why the rule is
in place - not that the kid will get it, at that point in time.
~~Geri~~
Geri and sometimes Brian
Yep! You know my parents never had to do that to me, because I wasn't a
particularly rebellious kid, but the knowledge that they could/would be more
than willing to embarrass me in front of my friends and their families if I
broke the right rules probably helped keep me in line. Just the possibility of
public humiliation is an excellent tool - one that IMO should be used more
frequently in society, particularly with criminals.
~~Geri~~
Deborah M Riel
Geri and sometimes Brian <gple...@aol.commotion> wrote:
>I am not totally sure I am following you on this. When you are a kid, the only
>reason you may (though not always or necessarily) get to have is "because my
>parents say so". If the kid doesn't believe the reason the parents give, such
>as the family religion, that "because my parents say so" is always there to
>fall back on.
Y'know I've actually used this response more times than I like to
admit, but mostly when my son was smaller and my explanations were
falling on deaf ears. The arguments can't be endless, after all.
But, now that he's a teen (and even when he was younger), I feel like
it's an important part of my job to talk to him about my reasons for
feeling a certain way, or asking certain things of him. He needs this
information in order to grow up to be a discerning person. If I want
him to have a chance of embracing my ideas I have to show him exactly
why they're important to me. If he then decides to reject them, then
I know that at least he has enough information to make a real choice.
Deb R.
Geri and sometimes Brian
>him to have a chance of embracing my ideas I have to show him exactly
>why they're important to me.
That is why I said that IMO a wise parent will explain (once) why the rule is
in place, the reasoning behind it, etc. I am not going to argue endlessly
(actually at all) with a kid over it, however. It has been my impression in
seeing other people's teens and a couple of my siblings that many teens think
they are fledgling lawyers and if they argue with the parent enough, they will
get their way. That bird don't fly in my house.
~~Geri~~
Deborah M Riel
Geri and sometimes Brian <gple...@aol.commotion> wrote:
saying that humiliation was a positive parenting technique...
Deb R.
Geri and sometimes Brian
>saying that humiliation was a positive parenting technique..
She wasn't. But I think it can be used very effectively.
~~Geri~~
Anne Robotti
Yeah, you're probably right Jane, and when he stops making the rest of
the day/week miserable for me and my children because of his
interactions with her I'll butt right out.
Anne
Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe
How is that out of your circle? You're "housemom." It's in the job
description to teach the house rules/requirements to the kids of the
house. Sometimes the job sucks.
Kitten
Anne Robotti
>>Something about it feels like the
>>wrong approach to me--I can't quite put my finger on it.
>
>How about the humiliating other people to get them to do what you want part?
>
Yeah, well, we're pretty big on personal accountability over here. SD
knows right damn well that she came home from the mall because *she*
screwed up by telling her father that she wasn't grounded because I
said so, when in fact I hadn't said that, and by slamming the door on
her way out, and telling him that it didn't matter what he said.
She apologized to her friends the next day.
Sometimes the consequences of your actions are embarassing, live with
it.
I don't think that somebody telling your parents personal private
stuff should necessarily be a consequence of every action. But I think
the "personal humiliation" part of the original situation pales in
comparison to the "I'm not helping you lie to your Mom and this is
what happens when you try to manipulate me into doing that" lesson. Of
all the things in the world, I hate being manipulated by my SD.
>>I can see
>>giving the other parent a "heads up" about what's going on, if you
>>think it's necessary,
>
>I agree, but I really hate doing this. You have to guess what they'll do to
>decide whether telling them is the right thing to do. If you know they'll beat
>their kid, you don't tell them. If you know they'll try to resolve it in a
>sensible way, you do. I wouldn't have said anything in your situation.
That's always an issue for me, what is the other parent going to do.
There are parents of SD's friends that I would never consider giving a
heads-up to. These are the "let's fight over two minutes past curfew
and the friend I said you couldn't hang out with" set. I think that
there are a lot of parents in this area who are very scared about
their kids growing up, and they want to micromanage that process down
to the minutae of their kids' lives. And me calling to tell them that
the second they drop their kid off at the mall she's drinking with her
boyfriend is not going to help that.
OTOH, my neighbor called me the other night to tell me some things SD
had said to her daughter, and I was very touched that she had made the
call. I didn't want to deal with it, but she did the right thing. But
then again, calling Chuck would have been the wrong thing, and calling
BM would have been a disaster of biblical proportions, so there you
have that.
>I'm rambling. The problem with the heads up is that it's hard to be confident
>that you're doing right thing, when you have to deal with a parent who already
>doesn't know what is going on with her kid.
Sometiems there are reasons parents don't know what's going on. It's
not always the kid's fault that they can't talk to a parent.
Anne
Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe
> >I wonder how she's going to react when she finds out that Chewy now
> >feels that makeup is inappropriate (rather than simply unnecessary, as
> >he's felt as long as I've known him) but is going to leave the makeup
> >guidelines to me.
> >
> How old is she again?
>
She's 14 going on 30.
Kitten
Anne Robotti
Fhiodhbhuidhe) wrote:
>> Yeah, I know, how she treats her father is out of my circle. But
>> letting her get away with pissy disrespect toward anybody always
>> backfires on me somehow.
>
>
>How is that out of your circle? You're "housemom." It's in the job
>description to teach the house rules/requirements to the kids of the
>house. Sometimes the job sucks.
Well, I just meant that, if she had been talking to *me* originally
she would never have slammed out of the house or spoken with such
disrespect, because I never would have allowed it. DH routinely lets
her get away with it, gets disgusted with himself, then takes it out
all over the rest of us. Which I guess does bring it sort of back into
my circle. But really, I think he should develop ways to address it
with her.
Anne
Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe
> "Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe" <kit...@whitepine.com> wrote in message
> news:454a033.04022...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > I wonder how she's going to react when she finds out that Chewy now
> > feels that makeup is inappropriate (rather than simply unnecessary, as
> > he's felt as long as I've known him)
>
> Tell him he doesn't have to wear any then.
>
> but is going to leave the makeup
> > guidelines to me.
>
> You don't have to, either.
>
LOL... the reason I get to set the guidelines is that I *do* wear
makeup - on occasion. I'm not willing to let him say that it's not
allowed, and he respects me enough to let this be my territory.
> What are you going to let her rebel on? What is she allowed to view
> differently from her parents? How does she get to experiment to find her own
> identity?
We're trying to skip the rebellion via discussion. She's allowed to
hold different views on *anything*, but she's not allowed to get
disrespectful/discourteous about those differing views. Discussion is
allowed, in most cases. She gets to experiment to find her own
identity by RESPECTFULLY/COURTEOUSLY asking to participate in
activities of her own, such as the Baha'i drama workshop, something in
which the rest of us have absolutely no interest. (And remember,
we're liberal Mennonites, which is definitely different than Baha'i.)
YD is the child who, of her own volition, asked if she could join our
church's Peace and Justice Committee as the "Teen Advocate." She is
volunteering for a couple other committees that deal with similar
issues. She made the local "Select" soccer team. She is considering
writing a teen column for the local newspapers. And she's doing
drama. These are all things she's decided she wanted to do. The only
requirement for the activities is making sure there are no scheduling
conflicts, there is adequate transportation, and that her attitude is
kept in check.
>
> I think you're mean, too.
<g> I'm a mom. It's in the job description.
There are a lot of things I could have done that would have been mean.
Telling her that she is expected to accept personal responsibility
for her action of *deliberately* choosing to do something outside our
family guidelines is not one of them, IMO. There are certain things
that the kids can choose to do once they are out on their own. They
know pretty well which things fall into the "when you're grown, gone,
and out on your own, paying your own bills" category.
Kitten
Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe
She was great again yesterday evening. Then this morning, she got
irritated that she was asked not to come into the dining room because
we were discussing something with OS. So she decided that she's
completely ignored and never gets any attention from us. <eyes
rolling>
It only took about 45 minutes to get her wound down enough to talk
about what was really bothering her. (New record!! Woohooo!!! She's
proud of that.)
What that finally boiled down to was that she's irritated that there
are things she can't do because she's 14. Chewy's told her she needs
to wait until she's 15 before we start teaching her to drive. She
wants to learn *NOW*. She wants to do a makeup class *NOW*. She
wants to learn *everything* *NOW*. She's an interesting kid.
Anyhow, I reminded her of our discussion last night about a "girls
day," to include OS's gf, where we learn about different makeup styles
from different parts of the world, then learn different makeup
techniques that are appropriate for the three of us. Then I talked
with her about some of the possible difficulties with OS if we started
teaching her to drive before we start teaching him. He's finally
pulling himself together. We don't want to discourage him by teaching
her to drive first. She agreed that it is probably wiser to hold off
on her driving lessons until after her 15th bday, in Sept.
She's just impatient to grow up. Several of her friends are 2-3 yrs
older than she is. She wants to be able to do the things they do.
At least she laughed when I told her she just wants to be 21.
Kitten
The Watsons
"Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe" <kit...@whitepine.com> wrote in message
news:454a033.04022...@posting.google.com...
i'll make a deal with her-i'll be 14 again for her, she can be 23 for me for
a bit...i want a vacation....;)
Jess
Anne Robotti
>Kitten, are you looking to actually discuss this stuff? I can't imagine
>anything I'm less willing to do than participate in a "family date" with a male
>teen in musth.
Right off the top of my head, take care of a baby that they conceived
because you left them alone too much?
> I don't know what your deal with makeup is, but I do know that
>your kids are at an age when "because that's our family (religion's) rule" is
>an inadequate response. I don't have anything against home schooling per se,
>but I'm afraid that you're micromanaging your kids' lives to the point where
>they can't help but explode. I'd explode now, never mind when I was a teen.
>
I disagree. I think there are many things where "Are you kidding, my
Mom would have a COW!" is a perfectly adequate reason to keep yourself
out of trouble. Okay, I don't think nail polish is one of them, but
I'm just saying. I'm not a big fan of micromanaging a teen, but my
particular teen has been busy proving there are areas of her life that
need micromanagement right now. (Academics being the top one.) I think
teens are like toddlers, in that it's all about picking the battles
you a) care about and b) think you can win. Personal
appearance/hygeine barely makes it onto my radar unless SD looks like
she's going out to a strip joint anymore, but for some parents that's
a big hot button. You do get to choose your own hot buttons.
>
>And you're losing it too. How could you get in a pissing match over nail
>polish? Mean is mean whether or not you were right about something else. You
>say you want your kids to talk about their feelings instead of acting out, but
>you get angry, defensive, and (judging by the makeup comment above) vindictive
>when they do.
Yeah, but Jane, parents are just people. I'm not proud of it, but
sometimes when SD wants to tell me things I get angry or defensive.
Sometimes unfairly or irrationally so. She knows that, I know that, we
laugh about it. I don't see the makeup comment as particularly
vindictive, it's a statement of fact. Having the parent with a
backbone in charge of *anything* always gets a good sulk going for
weeks around here!
Anne
WhansaMi
>>the girl's front door and into the house for a talk with her mom.
>>Both kids would be involved in a discussion about respect and
>>courtesy.
>>
>
>I can't see myself doing that. Something about it feels like the
>wrong approach to me--I can't quite put my finger on it. I'd be mad
>if some other parent marched up to my door with my kid and wanted to
>have a discussion with me, even if it involved that parent's kid as
>well. It feels presumptuous--like you're assuming the role that the
>other parent should be taking with her own child, and making the
>decisions about what is right and wrong for all of you.
Now, see, I'd be upset if another parent knew that my kid was deliberately
disobeying me, and *didn't* march them up to me.
I have to say that if my daughter had been told not to go to a boyfriend's
house on weekdays or whatever, and the parents knew that, I'd be furious if
they allowed her in the house. I'd see it as them undermining my parental
authority. It would definitely make me feel that I couldn't trust them to be
proper chaperones for my kids.
Sheila
WhansaMi
I think this is a non-starter, folks. I can't imagine Kitten *just* saying,
"Because it is a family rule" -- at least initially. I'm sure she has talked
about how she sees children's development, what she thinks is appropriate at
different ages, and why she thinks that.
Now, the kid may argue with it, and, for many kids, the question, "But WHY
can't I..." is not a question -- the answer has been explained ad nauseum, but
simply a way of continuing to have it on the table. I think it is perfectly
legitimate, at that point, to say, "It is the family rule. I've explained why
that rule exists, and I'm not going to stand here and have you pose the
question in order to continue engaging me on the issue."
Sheila
>
>jane
>>
>>~~Geri~~
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Anne Robotti
>Now, see, I'd be upset if another parent knew that my kid was deliberately
>disobeying me, and *didn't* march them up to me.
I think there's a middle ground there. If I didn't know the parent, I
might settle for just turning her away at the door with "Come on, you
know your Mom doesn't want you to be here, forget it." I would have to
be *seriously* pissed to do the march-up to a parent I didn't know
well.
>
>I have to say that if my daughter had been told not to go to a boyfriend's
>house on weekdays or whatever, and the parents knew that, I'd be furious if
>they allowed her in the house. I'd see it as them undermining my parental
>authority. It would definitely make me feel that I couldn't trust them to be
>proper chaperones for my kids.
Right, and see, while I waffle on what I'll tell another parent, I'd
never knowingly undermine their authority with their kid. If SD has
friends over and they're changing their plans, everybody has to call
their parents. "Hi, we're going to a party instead of the mall, is
that okay? Can you tell Mrs. Robotti that?" And occassionally the
other parent does get on the phone with *me* (not with their kid) and
say, "What do we know about this party? Did you check it out?" Every
once in a while I get a "she makes her own plans, she doesn't need to
check with me," and then that kid doesn't have to make another call
from my house.
But I do find that most parents are pretty grateful for the heads-up.
And you bet I expect the same courtesy, that they would check out a
party or another kid's house that they're sending my kid to. But SD
knows by now to call me herself, I don't expect another parent to make
her do it.
Anne
Tracey
Deborah M Riel wrote:
> In article <454a033.04022...@posting.google.com>,
> Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe <kit...@whitepine.com> wrote:
>
>>Again, he'd think I was awful. I'd help them, alright. Right up to
>>the girl's front door and into the house for a talk with her mom.
>>Both kids would be involved in a discussion about respect and
>>courtesy.
The Deb wrote:
> I can't see myself doing that. Something about it feels like the
> wrong approach to me--I can't quite put my finger on it. I'd be mad
> if some other parent marched up to my door with my kid and wanted to
> have a discussion with me, even if it involved that parent's kid as
> well. It feels presumptuous--like you're assuming the role that the
> other parent should be taking with her own child, and making the
> decisions about what is right and wrong for all of you.
But, Deb, not trying to be snarky about this at all, isn't that
*exactly* what you're doing to her mother? You would be angry
and feel the other parent was presumptuous for trying to parent
your child or at least force you into parenting your child the
way they would, but now you're making 'parental' decisions in re
to their daughter (i.e., It's okay for you to ignore what your
own parents say because I don't agree with it and you don't have
to worry about me saying anything to your parents about it.)
I dunno, Deb. I don't expect every other parent to agree with me
on my parental decisions. But, I *do* expect that other parents
don't undermine my decisions and that they don't substitute what
*they* feel is right as far as what my kids should and shouldn't
do with what *I* feel is right.
There's something else that's bugging me but I just can't put it
into words that I have the slightest hope of not offending you so
I won't.
Tracey
WhansaMi
>>disobeying me, and *didn't* march them up to me.
>
>I think there's a middle ground there. If I didn't know the parent, I
>might settle for just turning her away at the door with "Come on, you
>know your Mom doesn't want you to be here, forget it." I would have to
>be *seriously* pissed to do the march-up to a parent I didn't know
>well.
<chuckle> I guess I'm immune to that being a teacher. I do the school
equivalent of "the march-up" (aka, "the phone call" -- where the kid is handed
the phone and told to tell the parent why they are being called in the middle
of the day) a couple of times a year.
>
>>
>>I have to say that if my daughter had been told not to go to a boyfriend's
>>house on weekdays or whatever, and the parents knew that, I'd be furious if
>>they allowed her in the house. I'd see it as them undermining my parental
>>authority. It would definitely make me feel that I couldn't trust them to
>be
>>proper chaperones for my kids.
>
>Right, and see, while I waffle on what I'll tell another parent, I'd
>never knowingly undermine their authority with their kid. If SD has
>friends over and they're changing their plans, everybody has to call
>their parents. "Hi, we're going to a party instead of the mall, is
>that okay? Can you tell Mrs. Robotti that?" And occassionally the
>other parent does get on the phone with *me* (not with their kid) and
>say, "What do we know about this party? Did you check it out?" Every
>once in a while I get a "she makes her own plans, she doesn't need to
>check with me," and then that kid doesn't have to make another call
>from my house.
>But I do find that most parents are pretty grateful for the heads-up.
>And you bet I expect the same courtesy, that they would check out a
>party or another kid's house that they're sending my kid to.
Yeah, I typically touch bases with everyone too. If a parent lets me know that
it isn't necessary, then, of course, I won't bug 'em. But, in general, I check
everything out -- from movie approval, to video game approval, to playing with
make-up. Nine times out of ten the parents are very grateful that I've checked
with them, saying how they appreciate that I'm so cognizant of making sure
their guidelines and values are supported.
But SD
>knows by now to call me herself, I don't expect another parent to make
>her do it.
I guess it would depend on the kid. My kids check in too. But, if I had a kid
who *didn't* check in, because he/she didn't want to be told "no", then I'd
appreciate the other parents calling.
Sheila
>
>Anne
>
>
>
>
>
>
WhansaMi
>kid
>who *didn't* check in, because he/she didn't want to be told "no", then I'd
>appreciate the other parents calling.
>
>Sheila
I went back and reread Deb's original post, and this is pretty much what I am
talking about here. If I knew, as Deb does, that they had snuck around in the
past, I'd insist that I get verbal confirmation from the girl's parents every
time she came over that it was okay, at least until I felt comfortable that
they were being honest about it.
If there is any doubt, I'd both call, and want to be called.
Sheila
Anne Robotti
>There's something else that's bugging me but I just can't put it
>into words that I have the slightest hope of not offending you so
>I won't.
Come on Tracey, spill! Pretend it's me, we've never cared about
offending each other. :)
Anne
Kathy Cole
Fhiodhbhuidhe) wrote:
> They know pretty well which things fall into the "when you're
> grown, gone, and out on your own, paying your own bills" category.
Could you articulate why nail polish (or black nail polish in
particular) is in that category for you? If you did, I missed it.
Geri and sometimes Brian
>> grown, gone, and out on your own, paying your own bills" category.
>
>Could you articulate why nail polish (or black nail polish in
>particular) is in that category for you? If you did, I missed it.
It would be in my house, too, unless it was for a Halloween party.
~~Geri~~
_calinda_
ACK!.. 23?? oh to be 23 again.. sigh............. for the supple
skin, if nothing else. I hate watching myself decay like some
rotten piece of fruit........
Cal~
Geri and sometimes Brian
>rotten piece of fruit........
>
morning and lamenting the fact that neither of us will ever be young enough to
attract those cute young things again. (Not necessarily that we would want to
- just to be able to.)
~~Geri~~
The Watsons
"_calinda_" <calinda...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Gyb%b.21677$hm4....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> ACK!.. 23?? oh to be 23 again.. sigh............. for the supple
> skin, if nothing else. I hate watching myself decay like some
> rotten piece of fruit........
yup, surprising as it may be, 23....and i'm still debating getting the
tshirt made that says "i survived '02"....;D
Jess
Kathy Cole
Brian) wrote:
> I had written:
> >Could you articulate why nail polish (or black nail polish in
> >particular) is in that category for you? If you did, I missed it.
>
> It would be in my house, too, unless it was for a Halloween party.
Because it's ugly or what??
Deborah M Riel
>
>The Deb wrote:
I kinda like being "The Deb..."
>But, Deb, not trying to be snarky about this at all, isn't that
>*exactly* what you're doing to her mother? You would be angry
>and feel the other parent was presumptuous for trying to parent
>your child or at least force you into parenting your child the
>way they would, but now you're making 'parental' decisions in re
>to their daughter (i.e., It's okay for you to ignore what your
>own parents say because I don't agree with it and you don't have
>to worry about me saying anything to your parents about it.)
I think you've misunderstood my post somewhere along the line. I told
the kids that it *wasn't* ok to ignore what the GFs mom said, and that
I wouldn't go along with helping them to sneak around. I told my son
not to ever put me in that position again, because it was
disrespectful to his GFs mom, whether or not I agreed with her
position.
My point was that I didn't feel the right approach would be to march
up to her mom's house with both kids in tow to have a conversation
about it. I would rather handle my parenting with my son, and let her
handle her parenting with her daughter. For me to march up and force
a conversation with her mom is, in my view, assuming the role that
her mom should take with her.
>I dunno, Deb. I don't expect every other parent to agree with me
>on my parental decisions. But, I *do* expect that other parents
>don't undermine my decisions and that they don't substitute what
>*they* feel is right as far as what my kids should and shouldn't
>do with what *I* feel is right.
Go back and read my original post (sneaky teen VENT). You'll see that
undermining her mom's decisions was precisely what I didn't do, and
was the reason that my own son was so mad at me.
Deb R.
>Tracey
>
Melissa
>particularly rebellious kid, but the knowledge that they could/would be more
>than willing to embarrass me in front of my friends and their families if I
>broke the right rules probably helped keep me in line. Just the possibility
>of
>public humiliation is an excellent tool - one that IMO should be used more
>frequently in society, particularly with criminals.
>
>
>
See that type of threat is what would bring out the rebel in me. I have no
patience for threats and mind games.
Love,
Melissa
"The old Tom didn't poison your fish either!"
-Carson Kressley, from Queer Eye
Melissa
>
>~~Geri~~
>
You also haven't had a teenage SD yet. :)
heather m.
"Deborah M Riel" <dr...@wpi.edu> wrote in message
news:c1io67$6h1$1...@bigboote.WPI.EDU...
>
> Probably because at a certain age, people naturally start to question
> and rebel against the authority figures in their lives, if only to
> figure out what their own values are. You (the teen) can't sort it all
out if
> you never ask questions. And if you ask questions and get the
> "because I said so" answer all the time, without any information to
> back it up or give it validity, you have nothing to help you to figure
> out your own values. You, in your frustration, start to think it's
> all just so stupid after awhile and rebel even more.
>
> Deb R.
Yup. I'm the poster child for this. My parents got involved in a church
that grew to be cult-like when I was 14-15.(They ended up leaving it after a
major incident) It turned out to affect me in ways that I can't even begin
to describe, and what I can would be a post of mega proportions. It sent me
on a spiral of distrust in my parents and my faith that I'm still trying to
get a grip on today and it's really, really painful.
They were very much the "iron-grip control" types. My dance teacher begged
me to try out for cheerleading, and I wanted to badly, but my father said no
because practice would be on Sundays. Looking back, I can see now why
amongst other things I said "fuck it" and rebelled with the strength of a
raging bull during high school. Kind of the whole "head against the brick
wall voiceless" thing.
We're ok though. My parents had me late in life, they raised me the only
way they knew how.
Heather
Wendy
"Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe" <kit...@whitepine.com> wrote in message
news:454a033.04022...@posting.google.com...
> LOL... the reason I get to set the guidelines is that I *do* wear
> makeup - on occasion. I'm not willing to let him say that it's not
> allowed, and he respects me enough to let this be my territory.
Phew!
> We're trying to skip the rebellion via discussion. She's allowed to
> hold different views on *anything*, but she's not allowed to get
> disrespectful/discourteous about those differing views. Discussion is
> allowed, in most cases. She gets to experiment to find her own
> identity by RESPECTFULLY/COURTEOUSLY asking to participate in
> activities of her own, such as the Baha'i drama workshop, something in
> which the rest of us have absolutely no interest. (And remember,
> we're liberal Mennonites, which is definitely different than Baha'i.)
No, sorry. Your daughter asking to do a drama workshop that you aren't
interested in isn't rebelling, it's exploring. Rebelling requires doing
something that you know is counter to what your parents would do, and that
they probably don't approve of, not just don't care about. There aren't
that many safe things children can rebel on, but I think makeup and hair
colour are one of them..
> YD is the child who, of her own volition, asked if she could join our
> church's Peace and Justice Committee as the "Teen Advocate." She is
> volunteering for a couple other committees that deal with similar
> issues.
I like her already.
She made the local "Select" soccer team. She is considering
> writing a teen column for the local newspapers. And she's doing
> drama. These are all things she's decided she wanted to do. The only
> requirement for the activities is making sure there are no scheduling
> conflicts, there is adequate transportation, and that her attitude is
> kept in check.
All good things which suggest that she's someone who has interests and isn't
lazy about doing something about those interest. That's great.
> <g> I'm a mom. It's in the job description.
Yeah, I say that too now and again.
> There are a lot of things I could have done that would have been mean.
> Telling her that she is expected to accept personal responsibility
> for her action of *deliberately* choosing to do something outside our
> family guidelines is not one of them, IMO. There are certain things
> that the kids can choose to do once they are out on their own. They
> know pretty well which things fall into the "when you're grown, gone,
> and out on your own, paying your own bills" category.
Okay, as others have said, you've not explained here why this is one of
those things. She hasn't asked you to finance it. It isn't hurting anyone
else by wearing it. What's the rub? And while you're at it, why is it
unacceptable and inappropriate to Chewy?
Maybe you don't remember me posting that nailpolish is something I
loathe.I've hated it ever since I was persuaded by a friend to wear red
polish out one night and I had anxiety attacks about looking like a
prositute the whole night long. I hated it when my children started to wear
it, especially when they spilled it on the carpet. It's definitely not my
thing.
Wendy T
Wendy
"Anne Robotti" <arob...@deletemelscomm.net> wrote in message
news:ff1q305bvt5h8qdp3...@4ax.com...
> >How about the humiliating other people to get them to do what you want
part?
>
> Yeah, well, we're pretty big on personal accountability over here. SD
> knows right damn well that she came home from the mall because *she*
> screwed up by telling her father that she wasn't grounded because I
> said so, when in fact I hadn't said that, and by slamming the door on
> her way out, and telling him that it didn't matter what he said.
For me, the important thing if I'd been in Deb's situation, would be getting
her son and his girlfriend to think about trust and honesty in relationships
and to face up to dealing with the girlfriend's parents themselves. I don't
think you do that by dragging them over to the girlfriend's home and forcing
them to, I think you do that by getting them to work towards an
understanding of why they need to.
In your situation, either my children wouldn't have got beyond the yard
property without dealing with the confrontation, and my children know I'm
not afraid to hold that on the front lawn if that's the only place they're
willing to discuss the issues. Had they gone to the mall, then I'd have
waited til they got home and then imposed sanctions for lying.
> She apologized to her friends the next day.
What about to her Dad and you?
> I don't think that somebody telling your parents personal private
> stuff should necessarily be a consequence of every action. But I think
> the "personal humiliation" part of the original situation pales in
> comparison to the "I'm not helping you lie to your Mom and this is
> what happens when you try to manipulate me into doing that" lesson. Of
> all the things in the world, I hate being manipulated by my SD.
Is a teenager even aware that that is what they are doing, or that is how
they are making Deb feel? I think going to the other parents is escalating
conflict, rather than getting them to find the right way to deal with their
lack of acceptance of these rules or aware of how their behaviour could
affect the relationship they have with Deb.
Wendy
Anne Robotti
<we...@hundredakerwood.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>For me, the important thing if I'd been in Deb's situation, would be getting
>her son and his girlfriend to think about trust and honesty in relationships
>and to face up to dealing with the girlfriend's parents themselves. I don't
>think you do that by dragging them over to the girlfriend's home and forcing
>them to, I think you do that by getting them to work towards an
>understanding of why they need to.
Ideally, yes. Sometimes carrot, sometimes stick.
>
>In your situation, either my children wouldn't have got beyond the yard
>property without dealing with the confrontation, and my children know I'm
>not afraid to hold that on the front lawn if that's the only place they're
>willing to discuss the issues. Had they gone to the mall, then I'd have
>waited til they got home and then imposed sanctions for lying.
Well, it's just a personal difference. I don't reward my kids with a
day at the mall when there's something they have to deal with at home.
Actually, in this case, it wasn't the lying I was particularly on
about. I was upset about it I guess, but when she tells a stupid lie
that was bound to get found out, I just point out to her that it was
never going to fly and let it go. It really paled in comparison to the
fact that I'd gotten home and Chuck was a raving maniac because she'd
been so rude to him and was mad at *me* for ungrounding her without
asking him (gee honey, I *do* carry a cell phone) and was yelling at
the little kids, and I'm just so goddamn sick and tired of it, and her
blaming it on me was the last straw.
Then I got on the phone with SD and was told, "I'm not coming home, I
don't care what you say. You promised to take my friends home and
you're not embarassing me." I'm sorry, are you NEW here? If I say
you're coming home that's goddamn well what you're doing, and PS don't
you EVER tell me you don't care what I say you pissy little bitch.
That might go over with your Dad but that dog won't hunt with Mom. So
it was kind of just one thing on top of another with her just
continually shooting herself in the foot.
>
>> She apologized to her friends the next day.
>
>What about to her Dad and you?
Oh, yeah, well of course. It took a double latte at Starbucks to calm
her down enough to talk about it, she is *really* mad at her father
and in a lot of ways I don't blame her, but this spilling her bullshit
over onto the rest of the family has to stop. And she's just as guilty
of it as Chuck is, at one point she said to me, "Well if he grounds me
again I'm going to be SO MAD so he better not. If he thinks I'm rude
now I won't even care what I say if he grounds me." Yeah, well, your
snotty moods aren't going to hold the rest of the family hostage, and
if Dad grounds you then what you're going to do is be grounded, and by
the way you deserve it. Is he grounding you in a vaccuum? Are you
contributing ANYTHING to this situation?! Lather, rinse, repeat until
she admits that calling her father a jerk and slamming out of the
house is unacceptable behavior and that she has some anger managemetn
issues that she's not trying very hard to control.
Later on that night she had a good talk with Chuck which was nice, and
we helped her with her homework together (tell me again why I'm
multiplying polynomials at my age) and I know she talked to her
therapist about the whole thing again. I told her that she had done
well in resolving the conflict too, which is usually hard for me.
>Is a teenager even aware that that is what they are doing, or that is how
>they are making Deb feel? I think going to the other parents is escalating
>conflict, rather than getting them to find the right way to deal with their
>lack of acceptance of these rules or aware of how their behaviour could
>affect the relationship they have with Deb.
Every teenager? Don't know. *My* teenager? She'd have to be stupid not
to be, I've been having the manipulation conversation wtih her since
she was eight years old.
Anne
The Watsons
> (tell me again why I'm multiplying polynomials at my age)
ah, those're easy....wait until she has to start factoring 'em...;p
if she needs help and you need a break, throw her on aim-we're covering them
again in intermediate algebra, along with some new tricks...:)
(gee, talk 'bout irony *L*)
Jess
jane
>>anything I'm less willing to do than participate in a "family date" with a
>male
>>teen in musth.
>
>Right off the top of my head, take care of a baby that they conceived
>because you left them alone too much?
Them being alone does not lead to babies. Them having intercourse might. Of
course, the risk of that can be significantly decreased with birth control.
Really, how are these people supposed to explore and come to terms with their
sexuality? You may be no more ready than they are for the changes in their
bodies, but you've all got to deal with it. Sticking your head in the sand
about it does not make it go away until the kid is on his own.
>I disagree. I think there are many things where "Are you kidding, my
>Mom would have a COW!" is a perfectly adequate reason to keep yourself
>out of trouble.
I don't know what you mean. You're not saying teens won't find sex attractive
because their mothers aren't ready for it. What are you saying?
Mothers having cows is a fact of teen life. Everyone knows kids whose mothers
have cows. I see a lot of sympathy among teens for chldren of cow-having
mothers. In fact, remember what I was just saying to Deb about the head up?
It's the cow-having parents that I hesitate to call.
What I'm saying is that if you are a teen making a decision, and your reasoning
is "my mother would have a cow," your mother has become another bullshit thing
you have to deal with. If the correct decision would lead to cow having,
you've either got to do the wrong thing or deal with the cow having in some
way.
>Okay, I don't think nail polish is one of them, but
>I'm just saying. I'm not a big fan of micromanaging a teen, but my
>particular teen has been busy proving there are areas of her life that
>need micromanagement right now. (Academics being the top one.) I think
>teens are like toddlers, in that it's all about picking the battles
>you a) care about and b) think you can win.
Okay. I'll tell you something, though. It bothers me that it is so much about
battles. I don't mean to sound like Pollyanna, but why isn't it about working
together toward a shared goal? I don't see that Lee and I have radically
different goals.
Besides, micromanagement doesn't work.
jane
>
>Anne
jane
>If
>>you did believe it was right for some reason, you'd say, "because the reason
>>for the rule."
>
>only
>reason you may (though not always or necessarily) get to have is "because my
>parents say so". If the kid doesn't believe the reason the parents give,
>such
>as the family religion, that "because my parents say so" is always there to
>fall back on.
What do you mean by "fall back on"?
jane
>
>~~Geri~~
jane
>seeing other people's teens and a couple of my siblings that many teens think
>they are fledgling lawyers and if they argue with the parent enough, they
>will
>get their way. That bird don't fly in my house.
>
But Geri, there's no teen in your house.
jane
>~~Geri~~
Geri and sometimes Brian
Pretty much.
~~Geri~~
Geri and sometimes Brian
>patience for threats and mind
Well when my parents did it (and when/if I would do it) it would not be a
threat. It will just be known that the possibility is totally there.
~~Geri~~
Geri and sometimes Brian
My sister has one. I get to hear all of the gory details. She is totally
getting hers back for the kind of teen she was.
~~Geri~~
jane
>stuff should necessarily be a consequence of every action. But I think
>the "personal humiliation" part of the original situation pales in
>comparison to the "I'm not helping you lie to your Mom and this is
>what happens when you try to manipulate me into doing that" lesson. Of
>all the things in the world, I hate being manipulated by my SD.
Okay, but that's your problem. Humiliating a child to ease your own
psychological unease is a shitty thing for an adult to do.
Do you see what I'm saying? You have a problem with being manipulated. You
are the one who has to figure out how to not be manipulated. It's hard. Deb
had a hard time. We've all had trouble setting limits.
But what you're trying to say is, "I'm not helping you lie to your Mom, because
that behavior on my part would not be acceptable by my standards." The "this
is what happens when you try" part is fucked. It's not the wrong thing to do
because you are capable of punishing or humiliating the other person. It's
wrong because you value your integrity and you don't want to undermine the
girl's relationship with her mother.
jane
Geri and sometimes Brian
>>such
>>as the family religion, that "because my parents say so" is always there to
>>fall back on.
>What do you mean by "fall back on"?
I mean as a reason to give the ubiquitous peers who presumably will be
questioning the kid about it. Blaming parents is always good and other kids
usually understand.
~~Geri~~
Geri and sometimes Brian
>>
>But Geri, there's no teen in your house.
It isn't going to fly when SD becomes a teen either. I will undoubtedly be the
wickedest SM-type parent on the planet, because I never argue with a child.
~~Geri~~
The Watsons
"Geri and sometimes Brian" <gple...@aol.commotion> wrote in message
news:20040226111105...@mb-m17.aol.com...
> I mean as a reason to give the ubiquitous peers who presumably will be
> questioning the kid about it. Blaming parents is always good and other
kids
> usually understand.
"aw, man, who's gonna tell them?"...*shrugs*
Jess
Geri and sometimes Brian
>
~~Geri~~
Vicki Robinson
>But what you're trying to say is, "I'm not helping you lie to your Mom, because
>that behavior on my part would not be acceptable by my standards." The "this
>is what happens when you try" part is fucked. It's not the wrong thing to do
>because you are capable of punishing or humiliating the other person. It's
>wrong because you value your integrity and you don't want to undermine the
>girl's relationship with her mother.
But if my kid is sneaking around, lying and evading rules that I
thought she was following, the person who brings it to my attention
isn't undermining my relationship with my daughter, my daughter is.
She should be embarrassed not because she's been outed as a liar and a
sneak, but because she was lying and sneaking. I see it as natural
consequence.
If my relationship with my daughter is based on lies and ignorance of
what's really happening, *that's* what's fucked.
Vicki
--
Just to think I used to worry about things like that.
Used to worry 'bout rich and skinny
'til I wound up poor and fat.
-Delbert McClinton
Vicki Robinson
"Who knows how they find out things. All I know is that if I get
caught, I'll never drive again/get out of the house without my mom/
have any freedom at all/see another dime of allowance/whatever."
I always told my kids that if they felt pushed to do something that
they shouldn't do, I'd like it if they could just refuse it
comfortably on their own, but if they needed an excuse, the fact that
their cars would be history in an instant was one that any teen
understands. Losing your wheels is not worth any risk.
Geri and sometimes Brian
>caught, I'll never drive again/get out of the house without my mom/
>have any freedom at all/see another dime of allowance/whatever."
>
learned very quickly in life it was easier to just follow the rules, tell the
truth, etc., if I wanted to keep my privileges.
~~Geri~~
The Watsons
"Geri and sometimes Brian" <gple...@aol.commotion> wrote in message
> >"aw, man, who's gonna tell them?"...*shrugs*
> >
> You lost me.
a teen giving friends the line of "my parents say it's not allowed" is
likely to get the response of "who's gonna tell?"...
Jess
Vicki Robinson
>Okay. I'll tell you something, though. It bothers me that it is so much about
>battles. I don't mean to sound like Pollyanna, but why isn't it about working
>together toward a shared goal? I don't see that Lee and I have radically
>different goals.
But that's you and that's Lee. I know a 16 year old right now whose
goals are to make all of her own decisions, at all times, to go where
she wants when she wants with whomever she wants, to stay out all
night, to be given the money and car to do these things, and to never
ever have to communicate with an adult authority again, although
living with family wouldn't be so bad if she weren't accountable. She
says that she *is* an adult, and that following family rules doesn't
make sense because she can take care of herself. The adults in her
life should just let go and let her do what she wants.
How do you work towards a shared goal when you don't have one?
My goal is to get her to the point where she can handle that kind of
freedom, or at least be responsible for herself when she has it. And
it's not now.
The Watsons
"Vicki Robinson" <vjr...@xcski.com> wrote in message
news:c1l7bc$s9j$2...@allhats.xcski.com...
> "Who knows how they find out things. All I know is that if I get
> caught, I'll never drive again/get out of the house without my mom/
> have any freedom at all/see another dime of allowance/whatever."
>
> I always told my kids that if they felt pushed to do something that
> they shouldn't do, I'd like it if they could just refuse it
> comfortably on their own, but if they needed an excuse, the fact that
> their cars would be history in an instant was one that any teen
> understands. Losing your wheels is not worth any risk.
i preferred for sunshine to be able to know why it was wrong and to refuse
on those grounds-"i can't stay out after dark because it's dangerous and my
parents would worry", for example....i hated the "just because" lines...
Jess
Vicki Robinson
>See that type of threat is what would bring out the rebel in me. I have no
>patience for threats and mind games.
You and Jane were rebels. Geri and I sound remarkably alike, in that
I believed that my parents had my best interests at heart, that they
could be trusted to know some things that I didn't know yet and that
their authority was being exercised over me out of love, not out of a
power trip. They trusted me to follow their reasonable (to me) rules,
and I did, and the thought of their disappointment if I did something
against those rules was enough to keep me in line. I wasn't perfect,
I cut school now and then (but I was an honors student, so no one cared
a lot) and I smoked, but stayed away from drugs or alcohol and though
I dated a lot, I never had sex in high school.
They weren't threats or mind games, though, to me.
Anne Robotti
>Okay, but that's your problem. Humiliating a child to ease your own
>psychological unease is a shitty thing for an adult to do.
I think you're about as fucked as can be on this, but I'm going to try
one more time.
If my SD attempts to manipulate me into supporting her behavior by
(let's say) making me the driver for the "home" leg of the mall trip
and leading me to believe her father has okayed it, reasoning that I
won't drag a whole carload of kids home from the mall early, then she
is going to find out that that's not the case. That I won't be
cornered into supporting actions on her part that are wrong and that
don't meet the standards for our relationship that I find necessary to
maintain one with her at all.
If she's humiliated in the process, I'm not sitting there going, "Oh
goody, and SD was embarassed in front of all her friends too! Whoopie!
I love it when I get a chance to embarass her!" But she's known me for
ten years. I've never backed her up in one of her lies or her shitty
behaviors that affect me, and I'm not going to start now.
>
>Do you see what I'm saying? You have a problem with being manipulated. You
>are the one who has to figure out how to not be manipulated. It's hard. Deb
>had a hard time. We've all had trouble setting limits.
Yes. I've figured out how not to be manipulated. It's to call a halt
to the situation as soon as I realize I'm *being* manipulated. Why she
tried it now when things were going so well is beyond me, but
whatever. If it's time for a refresher course, then it is. My SD
knows, and has always known, that if she's jerking me around I'm not
going to allow it. If she tries it anyway, that's on her.
>
>But what you're trying to say is, "I'm not helping you lie to your Mom, because
>that behavior on my part would not be acceptable by my standards." The "this
>is what happens when you try" part is fucked. It's not the wrong thing to do
>because you are capable of punishing or humiliating the other person. It's
>wrong because you value your integrity and you don't want to undermine the
>girl's relationship with her mother.
Yes, consequences certainly are fucked. They make my SD's life so
complicated! She complains about them all the time.
To let her get away with this kind of thing is unacceptable by *my*
standards and is harmful to *our* relationship. She's perfectly
capable of understanding that, and cares about it. If the natural
consequences of her actions are that she's embarassed, well, lesson
learned. The "this is what happens when you try" part is the *point*.
Actions have consequences, these are the consequences of yours. If you
didn't like it, don't repeat the actions.
Anne
Tracey
Deborah M Riel wrote:
>>>The Deb wrote:
>> I kinda like being "The Deb..."
Heh. I meant to put an 'n' on there. But 'The Deb' works, too.
> I think you've misunderstood my post somewhere along the line. I told
> the kids that it *wasn't* ok to ignore what the GFs mom said, and that
> I wouldn't go along with helping them to sneak around. I told my son
> not to ever put me in that position again, because it was
> disrespectful to his GFs mom, whether or not I agreed with her
> position.
No, I understood your post. You refused to *actively* participate
in the GF's sneaking around but you're still *tacitly* participating.
And, if it were me that was your GF's parent, I would still be
pretty upset about it if/when I found out about it.
> My point was that I didn't feel the right approach would be to march
> up to her mom's house with both kids in tow to have a conversation
> about it.
I sorta agree and sorta disagree with that. I agree that all four
of you sitting down to talk to the kids together (without coming to
that agreement beforehand) would be presumptuous. I disagree in that
if taking both kids up to the door and saying 'Well, I just found
out that your daughter was not supposed to be at my house right now.
I'm sorry but I didn't know until I was bringing her home. Can we
set up a system where I know when it is okay for her to be at our
house?' is what you're doing, then, IMO, it's okay and something
that should be done.
See, I'm remembering when I was a teenager and I can tell you
that what *I* would have gotten out of this, if I were your son,
isn't that it's not ok to disregard his GF's mother's wishes, it
would have been that it's okay to disregard his GF's mother's
wishes and sneak around behind her back as long as you don't
have to actively participate in it.
>I would rather handle my parenting with my son, and let her
> handle her parenting with her daughter.
How is she supposed to parent her daughter if she doesn't know
what's going on? What if the shoe is on the other foot? You see,
for some reason, I kinda expect that when my child is at a friend's
house and their parents *know* that I wouldn't approve of something
my child is doing, they let me know about it. Even if they don't
think it's a big deal. Even if they don't share the same beliefs.
And, yeah, to a certain extent, I even expect them to actively
enforce my beliefs and not passively ignore them being ignored.
> Go back and read my original post (sneaky teen VENT). You'll see that
> undermining her mom's decisions was precisely what I didn't do, and
> was the reason that my own son was so mad at me.
I did read it again and I disagree that you didn't undermine her
mom's decisions. If her mom's decision had been 'Deb will not give
you a ride home', then, no, you wouldn't have undermined it. But
her mom's decision was 'You will not go over to your BF's house
unless I approve' and that decision was undermined.
Tracey
jane
>But that's you and that's Lee. I know a 16 year old right now whose
>goals are to make all of her own decisions, at all times, to go where
>she wants when she wants with whomever she wants, to stay out all
>night, to be given the money and car to do these things, and to never
>ever have to communicate with an adult authority again, although
>living with family wouldn't be so bad if she weren't accountable. She
>says that she *is* an adult, and that following family rules doesn't
>make sense because she can take care of herself. The adults in her
>life should just let go and let her do what she wants.
I don't believe you, and I find your analysis demeaning. Those aren't her
goals. I can understand *her* thinking they are, but not you thinking they
are.
>
>How do you work towards a shared goal when you don't have one?
>
Vicki! You're the pro at this. You are the ultimate discoverer of shared
goals and developer of routes to achieve them.
>My goal is to get her to the point where she can handle that kind of
>freedom, or at least be responsible for herself when she has it. And
>it's not now.
Okay, that's a start. You have a lot more. You both want you not to kill her.
You both want her to be loved. You both want her to be happy. You both want
her to have a vocation and avocation she enjoys. Damn, girl, you've got
*skills* here! Pretend you're a client.
jane
>
>Vicki
jane
Ahh. Middle school. That's not the age I'm talking about. I had no problem
with Lee using me as an excuse when she was younger. Now, if she thinks
something is wrong, she knows why she thinks it is wrong. We're in the years
when "my mother thinks it's wrong" is met with "how do you know your mother is
right?"
jane
>Geri
Anne Robotti
>>Right off the top of my head, take care of a baby that they conceived
>>because you left them alone too much?
>
>Them being alone does not lead to babies. Them having intercourse might. Of
>course, the risk of that can be significantly decreased with birth control.
Which is great, if you're dealing with a responsible teen who will
make responsible decisions about sex and birth control. There are
teens who will, there are teens who won't. Everybody knows their own
family best.
>
>Really, how are these people supposed to explore and come to terms with their
>sexuality? You may be no more ready than they are for the changes in their
>bodies, but you've all got to deal with it. Sticking your head in the sand
>about it does not make it go away until the kid is on his own.
I think that saying, "Tra la la, of course your and your boyfriend can
go away with his parents for the weekend, I won't even call them to
find out what the arrangements are, and when you get back we'll talk
about lightening up that pesky curfew," is sticking your head in the
sand. Making the ground rules clear and setting boundaries for your
kid based on how much trust they've engendered up until that point is
repsonsible parenting.
>
>>I disagree. I think there are many things where "Are you kidding, my
>>Mom would have a COW!" is a perfectly adequate reason to keep yourself
>>out of trouble.
>
>I don't know what you mean. You're not saying teens won't find sex attractive
>because their mothers aren't ready for it. What are you saying?
I wasn't talking about sex. I said "There are many things..." Teens
get pressured to do all kinds of things, and one out is always to say
that they'd never be able to get away with whatever it is.
>
>Mothers having cows is a fact of teen life. Everyone knows kids whose mothers
>have cows. I see a lot of sympathy among teens for chldren of cow-having
>mothers. In fact, remember what I was just saying to Deb about the head up?
>It's the cow-having parents that I hesitate to call.
You probably do see a lot of sympathy, in the early immature teen
years. And then I think it dawns on the kids that really, having a Mom
that neither knows or would care that you've been out at a college
party all night drinking and giving out free blow jobs might not be
all it's cracked up to be.
There *is* some middle ground between the
Nazi-micromanaging-cow-having parents that you seem to be using as a
frame of reference and parents who don't care at all. Some things faze
me, some things don't. My SD knows teh difference, adn she knows why
there's a difference. It's the responsibility of the parent to
communicate what things are completely unacceptable and what the
consequences are. And I'm not even just talking about the being
grounded or whatever, I'm talking about the life consequences that
make the thing unacceptable (most of the time) in teh first place!
>
>What I'm saying is that if you are a teen making a decision, and your reasoning
>is "my mother would have a cow," your mother has become another bullshit thing
>you have to deal with. If the correct decision would lead to cow having,
>you've either got to do the wrong thing or deal with the cow having in some
>way.
Yeah, I think it's important to have as few real dealbreakers as
possible. I think lying, drugs, bad grades and promiscuous sex are
mine. Not that "everything else is okay" but if you're looking for me
to have a cow, try one of those.
>Okay. I'll tell you something, though. It bothers me that it is so much about
>battles. I don't mean to sound like Pollyanna, but why isn't it about working
>together toward a shared goal? I don't see that Lee and I have radically
>different goals.
SD and I are working together toward a shared goal of getting her out
of her teen years as emotionally healthy and prepared for adult life
as possible. That's our shared goal, we've discussed it. And it
provides a really good frame of reference for discussions about her
behavior too. The details are tricky, and sometimes we disagree on
them. I see that it's all about battles for you, but you seem to think
that you can't impose any standards of behavior on teens without
battles that aren't worth it. Maybe that's the difference, to me they
are.
Anne
Deborah M Riel
Vicki Robinson <vjr...@xcski.com> wrote:
>In a previous article, janel...@aol.com (jane) said:
>
>>But what you're trying to say is, "I'm not helping you lie to your Mom, because
>>that behavior on my part would not be acceptable by my standards." The "this
>>is what happens when you try" part is fucked. It's not the wrong thing to do
>>because you are capable of punishing or humiliating the other person. It's
>>wrong because you value your integrity and you don't want to undermine the
>>girl's relationship with her mother.
>
>But if my kid is sneaking around, lying and evading rules that I
>thought she was following, the person who brings it to my attention
>isn't undermining my relationship with my daughter, my daughter is.
>She should be embarrassed not because she's been outed as a liar and a
>sneak, but because she was lying and sneaking. I see it as natural
>consequence.
>
>If my relationship with my daughter is based on lies and ignorance of
>what's really happening, *that's* what's fucked.
>
>Vicki
This is where a discreet "heads up" can come into play, after weighing
all the factors in the case. I try to put myself into the role of the
parent sitting at home when some other mother marches up to my house
with my kid and her kid in tow, to out them as having been sneaking
around. I can't come up with any other response other than it would
really piss me off to be forced into that conversation. I want to be
able to hear what happened from my own child, think about the
situation, formulate my response, and have my own discussion about why
it's wrong, and then decide what the consequences will be for my own
child. I want to be able to take considered *action* with my child, not
be forced into *reaction*, with all the other mother's expectations
that go along with her decision to march up to my house. What if I
disagreed with what she was saying to me? What if I wanted to
approach it differently? How could that be possible with her standing
there, taking all those parental decisions out of my hands while she
was waiting for my reaction?
I think the problem that can come of this approach is that (what I
said before) it would deflect my anger at what my child did onto the
other mother who was standing in front of me forcing me to parent
according to her timetable.
Deb R.
Anne Robotti
Robinson) wrote:
>In a previous article, janel...@aol.com (jane) said:
>
>>Okay. I'll tell you something, though. It bothers me that it is so much about
>>battles. I don't mean to sound like Pollyanna, but why isn't it about working
>>together toward a shared goal? I don't see that Lee and I have radically
>>different goals.
>
>But that's you and that's Lee.
Actually, I wasn't going there, but yeah, I bet a lot of this stuff is
easier if you're dealing with an emotionally healthy teen with no
deeply self-destructive needs. If you can watch your kid go out the
door and not really worry about what's going to happen, a lot of these
cans of worms never get opened.
>
>My goal is to get her to the point where she can handle that kind of
>freedom, or at least be responsible for herself when she has it. And
>it's not now.
You said it man.
Anne
Pat
news:Gyb%b.21677$hm4....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> ACK!.. 23?? oh to be 23 again.. sigh............. for the supple
> skin, if nothing else. I hate watching myself decay like some
> rotten piece of fruit........
Cal,
Honestly, that's the same thing I was thinking!!
Pat
Vicki Robinson
>child. I want to be able to take considered *action* with my child, not
>be forced into *reaction*, with all the other mother's expectations
>that go along with her decision to march up to my house. What if I
>disagreed with what she was saying to me? What if I wanted to
>approach it differently? How could that be possible with her standing
>there, taking all those parental decisions out of my hands while she
>was waiting for my reaction?
Oh, Deb, come on! You hear her out, then you say "Thank you for
bringing her home. I'll take it from here." And close the door. No
one's forcing you to react or act right there, right then. If I were
that mother, bringing the kids to your door, probably what I'd want is
an apology from *my* kid to you for his part in the deception!
>I think the problem that can come of this approach is that (what I
>said before) it would deflect my anger at what my child did onto the
>other mother who was standing in front of me forcing me to parent
>according to her timetable.
Why? She brought your kid home, she told you what was going on in
front of the kids (both of them) so that everyone is in the clear
about what is being alleged, no "he-said-she-said" possible. You
don't have to finish the job with them standing there, you just say
"Thanks," they go home, you take your kid inside and say "I'm going to
need some time to consider this. Do you have anything to say?" and
then proceed.
Geri and sometimes Brian
>when "my mother thinks it's wrong" is met with "how do you know your mother
>is
>right?"
"It doesn't matter if I ever want to use the car (or insert any other
privilege) again."
~~Geri~~
Vicki Robinson
Exactly.
How can you be so right about this and so wrong about politics?
Geri and sometimes Brian
I'm not wrong. :-)
~~Geri~~
Vicki Robinson
>>How can you be so right about this and so wrong about politics?
>
>I'm not wrong. :-)
>
What, you've become a Democrat?
Deborah M Riel
>
>How is she supposed to parent her daughter if she doesn't know
>what's going on? What if the shoe is on the other foot? You see,
>for some reason, I kinda expect that when my child is at a friend's
>house and their parents *know* that I wouldn't approve of something
>my child is doing, they let me know about it. Even if they don't
>think it's a big deal. Even if they don't share the same beliefs.
>And, yeah, to a certain extent, I even expect them to actively
>enforce my beliefs and not passively ignore them being ignored.
>
>
>> Go back and read my original post (sneaky teen VENT). You'll see that
>> undermining her mom's decisions was precisely what I didn't do, and
>> was the reason that my own son was so mad at me.
>
>I did read it again and I disagree that you didn't undermine her
>mom's decisions. If her mom's decision had been 'Deb will not give
>you a ride home', then, no, you wouldn't have undermined it. But
>her mom's decision was 'You will not go over to your BF's house
>unless I approve' and that decision was undermined.
>
>Tracey
I'm not entirely with you on this. These are big kids--juniors in
high school. They have a lot of freedom in their coming and going.
Some of them have their own cars. Sometimes this GF is allowed to go
out with certain friends, and they all meet up somewhere in the
neighborhood. Maybe that's a night she's supposed to be allowed to
get together with my son, maybe it's not. Maybe she's arranged with
her mom that they'll get together tonight instead of tomorrow night.
Maybe she's called and convinced her mom to change her mind. She's
not ringing my doorbell and saying to me, "don't tell my mom I'm here
because I'm not supposed to be, and by the way, can you drop me off a
street before my house?" Usually, it's that she's come back with my
son from wherever they all got together, it's 11:00, and I offer her
a ride home.
I don't keep track of all these things. She knows her rules, it's up
to her to follow them. It's not up to me to manage her decisions and
her life. It's up to me to explain why I think this is wrong, and why
I won't participate in it. It's up to me to explain to my son why I
think this is dishonest, and could do way more harm than good. Then
these big, nearly legally adult kids, have to make their own decisions
about how much they're going to sneak around behind my and her
mother's back, knowing how I feel about it. They have to be prepared
to take the consequences of their decisions. They have to formulate
what's right and wrong. I don't follow my son around wherever he
goes. I give him the guidelines of what I expect, and if I find out
that he's not following them, we take it from there. Sometimes I
reconsider my guidelines, sometimes he has consequences.
See, my goal is to *not* cut off communication with my son. I want
him to feel that he can ask me to sneak him and his girlfriend around
so I can explain why it's a bad idea, and why I am insulted that they'd
think I should do it. And the next time I ask him about something
I've discovered that he's done, I want him to be able to discuss it
with me instead of going completely underground with his whole life
because he doesn't want to deal with my reactions.
Deb R.
Anne Robotti
Robinson) wrote:
>Oh, Deb, come on! You hear her out, then you say "Thank you for
>bringing her home. I'll take it from here." And close the door. No
>one's forcing you to react or act right there, right then. If I were
>that mother, bringing the kids to your door, probably what I'd want is
>an apology from *my* kid to you for his part in the deception!
I think the original post mentioned "marching" the kids to the door
for a four-way conversation. But really, I think what most of us are
talking about is what you're describing. "This is what happened, sorry
I unwittingly played a part in it, wont' happen again, here, deal with
your kid while I take mine home and kill him" sort of thing.
I do know parents who would be standing there waiting for me to react,
or who would want to come in for the sit-down, I have no problem
saying that I'm fine with all of us talking but I need to talk to my
kid first.
>
>>I think the problem that can come of this approach is that (what I
>>said before) it would deflect my anger at what my child did onto the
>>other mother who was standing in front of me forcing me to parent
>>according to her timetable.
>
>Why? She brought your kid home, she told you what was going on in
>front of the kids (both of them) so that everyone is in the clear
>about what is being alleged, no "he-said-she-said" possible. You
>don't have to finish the job with them standing there, you just say
>"Thanks," they go home, you take your kid inside and say "I'm going to
>need some time to consider this. Do you have anything to say?" and
>then proceed.
Yeah, I don't think any of us would be happy with somebody pushing
their way in the door and insisting on the sit-down right then, if it
wans't what we preferred. But the fact is, you do have to deal with
all kinds of parents. Some are going to try to involve you right then,
or have their own agendas for how you should be reacting.
Anne