watching terms we use
Geri and Brian
ingrained in our language primarly as the kind you think of on Halloween, as
opposed to the Wiccan kind, the same way we call a facial tissue a "kleenex" or
dessert gelatin "jello". It may not be absolutely accurate, but probably it
won't change.
Geri
~~~~~~~~~~
"I only talk seriously on the first Tuesday in every month, from 4PM to 7PM."
~~~~~~~~~~
To e-mail us, dump the litterbox. :-)
Anne Robotti
well-known religion that everyone who says "witch" when they mean "bitch"
is out to hurt somebody? You didn't say to the original poster, "You may
not realize this, but 'witch' is a term for a religious group......" and
so forth. You came on with this heavy-handed "What does her religion have
to do with it" approach and of COURSE people are fluffed by that! Personally,
I had never given a thought to the term "witch" as a religious term, and
there are tons of people I know who have never heard of witches outside of
the movies or TV where they're generally portrayed as either evil (promoting
the stereotype that witch *means* evil person) or as kooks who join covens
and have to be rescued. I'm just saying that comparing it to calling somebody
a kike or a nigger is a little much, and I'm not sure the approach you're
using is particularly informative in this regard.
Anne
Karla wrote:
>
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> WARNING: I'm going to use some offensive terms here to illustrate a
> point:
>
> Newsgroups wrote:
> >
> > >Not all witches are Wiccans. Think of it this way: Lutherans are
> > > Christians but not all Christians are Lutherans
> >
> > Think of it this way: not all threads are stupid, but this ones is.
> > kitley
> > (a self-defined witch/bitch.......take your pick)
>
> You know, I was going to let it go except it really does bother me that
> the attitude of "I've called myself this" or "I don't mean it *that*
> way" really doesn't hold water.
>
> I would no more stand by and allow someone to call a Jew a Kike or use
> the "n" word to describe someone's race. It may be stupid to you, but
> would you let your kids call someone of Hispanic origin a "Spic" or a
> "Wetback?" Would you yourself use terms like "Towelhead" to describe
> someone who is Muslim or from the Middle East?
>
> If you wouldn't tolerate those terms, why then would you allow yourself
> to justify substituting the word witch for bitch now that you know it is
> a term to describe a religious group? It may seem harmless to you now,
> but what if your children (step or bio) came home with a copy of
> Cunningham's _The Truth About Witchcraft Today_ and said, "Mom, Dad, I
> need to talk to you about my religious choices...." A friend of mine
> who is gay and a Pagan said it was easier for him to say, "Mom, I'm gay"
> than it was to say, "I've joined a coven...." Gay his mom could deal
> with, with Pagan... well let's just she had a very difficult time and it
> took a while.
>
> I grew up using it as a substitute too. Hell, I grew up with a lot of
> things that really make my hair curl at this point. Things I heard from
> my grandmother's mouth I wouldn't tolerate from any of my peers....as
> times change and awareness grows, so should we.
>
> To paraphrase Maya Angelou: I made the decisions I did with what I
> knew. Now I know better, I'll decide better.
>
> karla
Carl & Renee
There are going to be terms and nouns that we all use that others in the NG
are going to find offensive... you have to keep in mind that the offense is
rarely intended... I recall using the terms "poor niggers and white trash"
to describe an attitude my mother had and it brought out lots of reaction.
I'm sorry, but "witch" has been used through the centuries to describe evil
women, hags, nasty women.... witchcraft as a religion rarely enters anyone's
mind, except those who participate in it....
Why should we condone the use of the word "bitch" - some people are not
comfortable using that word, so they use witch.... I'm personally offended
if someone says "god damn" but I'm not going to read them the riot act every
time they do it.... It's my personal conviction... I believe if you say it,
He will do it..... my thing... and I don't expect anyone else to adhere to
it.
This can be an emotional outlet for many people... in high voltage
situations, people are not going to think about the terminology that they
use so as to keep from offending someone... they just need to get things off
their chest.... That in part, is what this group is for.... Because the word
"witch" is used with frequency in this group, if you find it too offensive,
then my suggestion to you is that you try to take these "offenses" with a
grain of salt and realize that this is not a perfect world... that people
are going to continue to do and say things that offend at some point or
another.... but it is never meant to be a personal assault against anyone's
ideals or beliefs.
Renee
Melissa J. Ryan
While I admire your crusade I cannot support you saying that we can or cannot
use a word. I am not thrilled by some of the things people say either but I
cannot and will not deny their right to say them. I am sorry that the word
offends you, and feel for your upset but we do have the right to say witch if
we feel it approproate.
Love,
Melissa
Kallynn1
>the attitude of "I've called myself this" or "I don't mean it *that*
>way" really doesn't hold water.
Well somebody who claims to be as PC such as yourself should learn to "read
between the lines". Surely you can't take a statement such as what Kerri wrote
and interpret it as making fun of Wiccan's. Come on. Witch, witch, and
witch..........Geese, what about the witch in Hansel and Gretel? Was she
wiccan? I don't think so......What about the Wicked Witch of the West in
Wizard of Oz? Karla there are words that have more than one meaning and I
think that it is your job not to "look" for arguments. I mean we all knew what
she meant. Surely a person that holds such passion to such subjects would get
the meaning of a simple sentence. We all know she wasn't referring to Wiccans.
We all know what her meaning of witch was. She wasn't attacking witches,
bashing races, religion or anybodies beleifs. My daughter dressed as a witch
for halloween because it was something SCARY!!!!!! She wasn't portraying a
religious person. She was being a mean ugly scary witch with a green face,
warts, and a howling laugh. Are we going to redefine halloween now? This is
absolutely a waste of time and space. If you want to take everything
literally, hey go for it but don't start correcting people for something that
doesn't need a correction. I mean Tamara said that we would "shit a twinkie"
if we knew how often she changed her sheets. Karla, do you really think that
we will all shit twinkies when we find out? Ifso, Tamara shut up! I don't
want to shit a twinkie, I don't even like them.........
Kallynn-who wants Tamara to know that she will quote her from now on about
"Shitting Twinkies", because it is just too darn funny Tamara :o)
Geri and Brian
>we will all shit twinkies when we find out? Ifso, Tamara shut up! I don't
>want to shit a twinkie, I don't even like them.........
HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!!!!
ELD
Kallynn1 wrote:
snip
I mean Tamara said that we would "shit a twinkie"
> if we knew how often she changed her sheets. Karla, do you really think that
> we will all shit twinkies when we find out? Ifso, Tamara shut up! I don't
> want to shit a twinkie, I don't even like them.........
>
Anne Robotti
you shit it... just food for thought (so to speak)...
Anne
TYounger
I just want to post something I find interesting.
witch \Witch\, n. [OE. wicche, AS. wicce, fem., wicca,
masc.; perhaps the same word as AS. w[=i]tiga, w[=i]tga,
a soothsayer (cf. Wiseacre); cf. Fries. wikke, a witch,
LG. wikken to predict, Icel. vitki a wizard, vitka to
bewitch.] 1. One who practices the black art, or magic;
one regarded as possessing supernatural or magical power
by compact with an evil spirit, esp. with the Devil; a
sorcerer or sorceress; -- now applied chiefly or only to
women, but formerly used of men as well.
2. An ugly old woman; a hag. --Shak.
3. One who exercises more than common power of
attraction; a charming or bewitching person; also, one
given to mischief; -- said especially of a woman or
child. [Colloq.]
4. (Geom.) A certain curve of the third order, described
by Maria Agnesi under the name versiera.
5. (Zo["o]l.) The stormy petrel.
witch \Witch\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Witched; p. pr. & vb.
n. Witching.] [AS. wiccian.] To bewitch; to fascinate;
to enchant.
(Websters Revised Unabridged Dictionary, 1996, 1998 by
way of www.dictionary.com)
witch n 1: a female sorcerer or magician [syn:
enchantress] 2: a being (usually female) imagined to
have special powers derived from the devil 3: an ugly
evil-looking old woman [syn: hag, beldam, beldame,
crone] v : cast a spell over someone or something; put a
hex on someone or something [syn: hex, bewitch, glamour,
enchant, jinx]
(WordNet v 1.6 1997 Princeton University by way of
www.dicitonary.com)
Now, nowhere in those definitions, updated as recently
as last year, is "A member of wicca" I'm sorry, but the
broadband definition is someone who is evil, bad,
practices black magic.. and if you're not particularily
fond of someone, referring to them as "evil" isn't all
that uncommon.
I have wiccan friends. They don't tell people "Hi, I'm
so and so, and I'm a witch" - However, if the subject
comes up, they will say "I'm wiccan" The term "witch"
carries a bad connotation anywhere outside the wiccan
religion, and they realize this, so to the general
population, they don't use the term.
Tamara
> Anne Robotti said...
> But Karla, do you really think that witchcraft is such a mainstream,
> well-known religion that everyone who says "witch" when they mean "bitch"
> is out to hurt somebody? You didn't say to the original poster, "You may
> not realize this, but 'witch' is a term for a religious group......" and
> so forth. You came on with this heavy-handed "What does her religion have
> to do with it" approach and of COURSE people are fluffed by that! Personally,
> I had never given a thought to the term "witch" as a religious term, and
> there are tons of people I know who have never heard of witches outside of
> the movies or TV where they're generally portrayed as either evil (promoting
> the stereotype that witch *means* evil person) or as kooks who join covens
> and have to be rescued. I'm just saying that comparing it to calling somebody
> a kike or a nigger is a little much, and I'm not sure the approach you're
> using is particularly informative in this regard.
>
> Anne
>
> Karla wrote:
> >
> > x-no-archive: yes
> >
> > WARNING: I'm going to use some offensive terms here to illustrate a
> > point:
> >
> > Newsgroups wrote:
> > >
> > > >Not all witches are Wiccans. Think of it this way: Lutherans are
> > > > Christians but not all Christians are Lutherans
> > >
> > > Think of it this way: not all threads are stupid, but this ones is.
> > > kitley
> > > (a self-defined witch/bitch.......take your pick)
> >
> > You know, I was going to let it go except it really does bother me that
> > the attitude of "I've called myself this" or "I don't mean it *that*
> > way" really doesn't hold water.
> >
TYounger
LOL... I have been using that phrase since I was a young
teenager... I have *no* idea where it came from, but it
always seems to illicit the reaction I'm looking for :-D
Feel free to quote me whenever you like. I say wacky
things just so you will :P
Tamara
> I mean Tamara said that we would "shit a twinkie"
> if we knew how often she changed her sheets. Karla, do you really think that
> we will all shit twinkies when we find out? Ifso, Tamara shut up! I don't
> want to shit a twinkie, I don't even like them.........
>
Geri and Brian
>by Maria Agnesi under the name versiera.
You know - I bet when that poster was talking about the BM being a witch, she
was referring to the geometric term. Hee-hee!!
lilblakdog
>I'm also aware
>that for years American Indians were portrayed as violent, drunken
>animals that said "How" and "you heap big chief."
Okay, I'm going to step in here. First of all, the like "First Nations",
not "American Indians"--they feel that those are the ones who like to be
referred to as "IndoAmericans", so long as we're being PC.
Second, I know a number of First Nations people who will willingly admit
that years of drunken riots on the reservations have contributed to this.
It's not a stereotype--it's a fact. A fact that a number of them are trying
very hard to change. They're expecting a chance to do that--they're not
trying to prove that the past never happened, which is what you're
suggesting.
lil (who's cousin was stabbed seventeen times--till his death--by a drunk
First Nations person so will happily debate this issue with you anytime you
like)
---
"I'm calm; I'm just opinionated." -- Karen West
lilblakdog
>I have wiccan friends. They don't tell people "Hi, I'm
>so and so, and I'm a witch" - However, if the subject
>comes up, they will say "I'm wiccan" The term "witch"
>carries a bad connotation anywhere outside the wiccan
>religion, and they realize this, so to the general
>population, they don't use the term.
<the sound of lil standing a cheering>
Very nice post, Tamara!
lil
Kallynn1
>teenager... I
Well I *died* when I read it the first time you wrote it in a post and have
since used it, and Anne, by the way, don't worry I won't be sending you any
twinkies ;oD honest, I promise.
Kallynn-who will never look at hostess products in the same light :o)
Trinity
-> >LOL... I have been using that phrase since I was a young
> >teenager...
You are the only other person I haev heard say that!!!! I used to use "shit
puprle twinkies" though. :o)
MonicaNLuv1
MonicaNLuv
Anne Robotti
Anne
jane lawrence
> If you wouldn't tolerate those terms, why then would you allow yourself
> to justify substituting the word witch for bitch now that you know it is
> a term to describe a religious group? It may seem harmless to you now,
> but what if your children (step or bio) came home with a copy of
> Cunningham's _The Truth About Witchcraft Today_ and said, "Mom, Dad, I
> need to talk to you about my religious choices...." A friend of mine
> who is gay and a Pagan said it was easier for him to say, "Mom, I'm gay"
> than it was to say, "I've joined a coven...." Gay his mom could deal
> with, with Pagan... well let's just she had a very difficult time and it
> took a while.
karla,
I sympathize with your basic point. The derogatory "witch"
usage correlates to the current juvenile usage of "gay" that
drives me nuts.
OTOH, I can see the argument that "witch" has been used to mean
an old hag or evil woman in English for about a millennium, and
it's pretty entrenched. You definitely have an uphill battle
here. Still, if you want to jump in and object every time you
see it used, it's fine with me.
On my third hand, it seems to me that mere duration of
persecution of a religious group does not justify it's
continuance. It seems to me that "shylock" has been fallen out
of modern usage. Although the usage was less common for a
shorter period of time, I see some hope for your crusade against
pejorative usage of "witch."
On my fourth and final hand, IIRC historical persecution of
witches did not directly involve a particular religious group.
It resulted of misogynistic and economic forces within cultures
which made it politic to dispose of any women who deviated from
the norm or was an economic drain on the community. Of course,
it also expeditiously handled the problem of mental illness.
So, while witch persecution may have ostensibly been directed at
the "Wiccan" kind of witch, in reality its effects dealt largely
with the "bitch" or "hag" kind of witch.
If it's any consolation to you, in my daughter's social group
"witch" is far less acceptable an epithet than "gay."
jane
jane lawrence
>
>
> Well somebody who claims to be as PC such as yourself should learn to "read
> between the lines". Surely you can't take a statement such as what Kerri wrote
> and interpret it as making fun of Wiccan's. Come on. Witch, witch, and
> witch..........Geese, what about the witch in Hansel and Gretel? Was she
> wiccan? I don't think so......What about the Wicked Witch of the West in
> Wizard of Oz? Karla there are words that have more than one meaning and I
> think that it is your job not to "look" for arguments. I mean we all knew what
> she meant. Surely a person that holds such passion to such subjects would get
> the meaning of a simple sentence. We all know she wasn't referring to Wiccans.
> We all know what her meaning of witch was. She wasn't attacking witches,
> bashing races, religion or anybodies beleifs. My daughter dressed as a witch
> for halloween because it was something SCARY!!!!!! She wasn't portraying a
> religious person. She was being a mean ugly scary witch with a green face,
> warts, and a howling laugh. Are we going to redefine halloween now? This is
> absolutely a waste of time and space.
I don't mean to harp too much on this thread, but I don't think
you guys are listening to what karla has to say. People are
ridiculing members of her religion. I find the argument that
modern definitions of "witch" do not include Wiccans to lack
force. The etymological information explains that "witch" is
derived from the Old English "wicca."
When I was growing up, the current attitude toward witches was
prevalent toward Jews. People around me talked about jewing
people down and used terms like "shylock." It would have been
acceptable to dress for Halloween like a greedy old jewish pawn
broker. Jews were also expected to accept that the criticism
was about some other cheap kike bastard, not them. You can't
deny that that has changed. After centuries, millennia even, it
is no longer socially acceptable to denigrate Jews.
Antisemitism is certainly alive and well, but we've all pretty
much learned that we will offend people and be called on it if
we slur Jews.
I don't see that karla is out of line at all here. Sure, there
is some initial resistance and defensiveness. We all want to
say, "No, no, no, I didn't say anything wrong." The fact is:
using the term "witch" to demean offends some people. We *will*
be called on it and reminded of it. Wicca may not be one of the
most common religions in this country, but this is not the first
time the issue has been raised. Coincidentally, this is not the
first time the "slut," "tramp," "trailer trash" issues have been
raised, either.
Personally, I think it's a good thing. People come and go
here. We have wide geographic and sociologic diversity. It's
nice to know where the toes are just in case we choose not to
step on them.
jane
Kallynn1
>you guys are listening to what karla has to say. People are
>ridiculing members of her religion.
No Jane they aren't. Nobody made fun of the Wiccan Religion.........I was
listening to what Karla said and the sentence in what "witch" was used had
absolutely nothing to do with religion..........It was used in the sense of
"hag", bitch, etc., you get the point. As I said before, you can read
something and pick it apart and take things literally (twinkie). Or you can
read something and get the true meaning of what they were saying. There was no
Wiccan bashing there. Most people don't even know that Wiccan's consider
themselves "witches". I didn't.....Wouldn't that be a white witch or something
like that? You can redefine the definition for "witch" but how will you
explain all of the witches in past history, fairy tales, scary movies, etc.,
when they were dressed scary and acted scary?
Kallynn
Anne Robotti
Anne
Sian Lee Reid wrote:
> Most of them wouldn't tear you a new asshole for making that kind
> of offhand remark, but most of them will confess that, even when they
> choose to say nothing, it kind of hurts, and makes them sad.
>
> Sian
jane lawrence
>
> >I don't mean to harp too much on this thread, but I don't think
> >you guys are listening to what karla has to say. People are
> >ridiculing members of her religion.
>
> No Jane they aren't. Nobody made fun of the Wiccan Religion.........I was
> listening to what Karla said and the sentence in what "witch" was used had
> absolutely nothing to do with religion..........It was used in the sense of
> "hag", bitch, etc., you get the point.
But kallynn, you just can't use the word "witch" as an insult
and say that it is not bashing people who are witches. That's
like calling someone a "nigger" then saying that it has nothing
to do with being black. I've heard people do it, too. They say
that a "nigger" is just an ignorant person, white or black.
That's such bullshit.
> As I said before, you can read
> something and pick it apart and take things literally (twinkie). Or you can
> read something and get the true meaning of what they were saying. There was no
> Wiccan bashing there. Most people don't even know that Wiccan's consider
> themselves "witches". I didn't.....
But that's like saying that our ignorance justifies insult to
karla and members of her religion. Whether you or I were aware
of it, wiccans are witches and always have been. The fact that
society has persecuted those who follow her religion for
centuries by representing witches as evil and ugly does not make
it okay to do it now, any more than a millennium of persecution
justifies anti-Semitism today.
> Wouldn't that be a white witch or something
> like that?
This sort of pushes me into the lil's eye-bleeding stage. I
can't imagine anyone referring to a "white Lutheran" or a "white
Episcopalian." Just the use of the term "white witch" implies
that real witches are some other kind.
Look, you can go ahead and insult people all you want. I'm not
telling you what to do. I'm just saying that it's fruitless to
argue here than you're not offending people. You are. When you
call someone who is cheap a "jew" or refer to an unpleasant
woman as a "witch," you're reinforcing cultural stereotypes
based on religious ethnocentrism. I hate that stuff.
> You can redefine the definition for "witch" but how will you
> explain all of the witches in past history, fairy tales, scary movies, etc.,
> when they were dressed scary and acted scary?
Propaganda. It's not as though wart-nosed women ever really
flew around on brooms with cone-shaped hats. It's not as though
the women who were burned at the stake really made people's cows
dry up.
jane
Sian Lee Reid
kall...@aol.com (Kallynn1) wrote:
> >I don't mean to harp too much on this thread, but I don't think
> >you guys are listening to what karla has to say. People are
> >ridiculing members of her religion.
>
> No Jane they aren't. Nobody made fun of the Wiccan Religion.........I was
> listening to what Karla said and the sentence in what "witch" was used had
> absolutely nothing to do with religion..........It was used in the sense of
> "hag", bitch, etc., you get the point.
I don't mean to be dense, but if what you mean is 'hag', 'bitch', 'nasty,
obnoxious, malevolent human being' then why not say that, instead of
'witch'. To paraphrase a literary great, 'Sloppy language means sloppy
thinking.'
You might think Karla's point is trivial, and that *no one* could actually
take offense at this. But Jane is right, even if people are too
reasonable to take offense, it is still offensive. I have worked with
neopagan witches in one capacity or another (comes with doing advanced
graduate work on neopagan religions) in an ongoing way for the past 15
years. Most of them wouldn't tear you a new asshole for making that kind
Geri and Brian
>listening to what Karla said and the sentence in what "witch" was used had
>absolutely nothing to do with religion..
Well, Kallyn, I agree with your post, but I never claim to try to be PC about
all things (or even most of them). If someone made a joke about Lutheranism
(heck, we make jokes about ourselves and our potluck dinners) I certainly
wouldn't be offended. At the most, I would just think the person who said it
didn't know any better. But I certainly wouldn't drag it on in a big
discussion about how non-PC it is.
Kallynn1
>discussion about how non-PC it is.
>
>
>Geri
Funny thing about it though Geri, I am not even the one that typed "witch" in
the OP. I just defended her right to say it. :o)
Kallynn
Kallynn1
>karla and members of her religion.
If you read the Post from the beginning you would know that Karla isn't
Wiccan.>Look, you can go ahead and insult people all you want.
Excuse me Jane, I haven't insulted anyone. Why? Because I defended Kerri's
right to use the term? Because I explained her definition of Witch? Because
she used an expression that has been used forever and got fried for it.
Please, give me a break here.>I'm not
>telling you what to do. I'm just saying that it's fruitless to
>argue here than you're not offending people. You are.
I beg to differe with you Jane, I haven't offended anyone. I haven't called
anyone a witch on this newsgroup, but I can bet just about everyone in this NG
has used the expression at one time or the other including myself.......
.>Propaganda. It's not as though wart-nosed women ever really
>flew around on brooms with cone-shaped hats. It's not as though
>the women who were burned at the stake really made people's cows
>dry up.
>
Yeah and it isn't as thought I really think of my husband as a baby but I do
call him "baby", and I call my son Scooby Doo but I don't think of him as a
dog. I call my girls Silly Lillies and they aren't funny flowers. My point to
this whole thread was that people say things and you can take it literally or
you can take it for what it really is. *I* do understand how the term "witch"
could be offensive, but on the other hand my general explanation was that she
didn't mean it in a religious bashing way.
Kallynn
Kallynn1
>the term witch in a deragatory manner because, after all look at the
>movies, stories, books.
You were given an explanation as to what Kerri meant. As I have repeated 55
times, she wasn't Wiccan bashing she was BM bashing which is one of the things
people do when they come here to vent..........The majority of society doesn't
know what Wiccan's are......They don't know that they consider themselves
witches......I hardly doubt that Kerri knew she would be offending a whole
religion. That was my point.........
>Following your logic, wouldn't all of us SMs be witches because of all
>the stories, books, movies....?
Gee Karla, what do you mean? Are you implying that all SM's are Bitches or
Wiccan's, I don't quite know what a witch is anymore.
Kallynn-who has now reached a new height of aggravation........................
Anne Robotti
Anne
Anne Robotti
that in non-internet circles it's more common to find people who
haven't heard about it than who have. We're generally a more educated
breed. Plus, I'm not sure that all Wiccans go around telling people
what their religion is, because uneducated people do get creeped out
by that sort of thing.
I don't think that "because it might offend somebody" is a good reason
to stop using a particular phrase. You'll drive yourself bonkers. But
I think that "because if offends members of our circle of friends" is.
My friends and DH's, and both our families, have all stopped saying
nigger in my presence. Not because I'm the PC police, but because I'm
close friends with so many black women and "auntie" to their children
and the term hurts my feelings and offends me. So it's out of respect
for me, not out of a generalized fear of "offending somebody" or "pissing
off the PC police" that they have modified their language. I was just
asked to stop using the term "breast nazi" on a breastfeeding list I'm
on. It's a widely used term on the internet and elsewhere to describe
the sect of rabid lactation activists... but it offends somebody who I've
come to consider a friend. So I don't post it to the list anymore, I say
"breastfeeding zealot." What's the big deal?
Anne
Melissa J. Ryan wrote:
>
> >The majority of society doesn't
> >know what Wiccan's are......They don't know that they consider themselves
> >witches......
>
> The majority of what society? It's a religion that the government recognizes
> and I would think plenty of people know about. I went to school with a girl
> who's family was Wiccan (she preferred to be called a witch) and I have also
> met a few people who practiced that religion once I moved to New York. It's
> not that uncommon of a religion.
> Love,
> Melissa
> ICQ# 30417882
>
> Anything you do
> Let it come from you
> Then it will be new
> Give us more to see
>
> -Stephen Sondheim
Melissa J. Ryan
Geri and Brian
>asked to stop using the term "breast nazi" on a breastfeeding list I'm
>on. It's a widely used term on the internet and elsewhere to describe
>the sect of rabid lactation activists...
Hee-hee-hee-hee - I haven't heard that one before.
Geri
(who is neither a lactation activist or whatever the opposite is)
Geri and Brian
>Wiccan's, I don't quite know what a witch is anymore.
I am falling off my chair laughing at that!
Kallynn1
>
>Anne
Well when you find out could you let me know...... ;o)
Kallynn
jane lawrence
>
> >But that's like saying that our ignorance justifies insult to
> >karla and members of her religion.
>
> If you read the Post from the beginning you would know that Karla isn't
> Wiccan.
Details of karla's religious beliefs aside, my point remains the
same. Our ignorance of other's religions does not justify
insult to them.
> >Look, you can go ahead and insult people all you want.
>
> Excuse me Jane, I haven't insulted anyone. Why? Because I defended Kerri's
> right to use the term? Because I explained her definition of Witch? Because
> she used an expression that has been used forever and got fried for it.
> Please, give me a break here.
Not on this one. Again I say, the fact that a religious slur
has been used for a long time does not make it any less
reprehensible.
> >I'm not
> >telling you what to do. I'm just saying that it's fruitless to
> >argue here than you're not offending people. You are.
>
> I beg to differe with you Jane, I haven't offended anyone. I haven't called
> anyone a witch on this newsgroup, but I can bet just about everyone in this NG
> has used the expression at one time or the other including myself.......
You offended me. The initial post using "witch" as an insult
didn't bother me. I'm not particularly sensitive to the usage;
we all have limited cultural experience; I assumed that Kerri
did not know that she was using a religious term as an insult.
The posts following karla's, including yours, bothered me far
more. Not knowing you are insulting a person is one thing.
Deliberately slandering their religion is another. Unless I'm
misreading your posts, you feel that karla has no right to tell
Kerri that she was offending her. It seems that you feel karla
has no right to be offended.
I, on the other hand, feel that people should be allowed to
pursue their religion with freedom from abuse. In my vast and
varied experience, if people tell you you are slandering their
religion (or ethnic group, or gender), you are. You might not
see it right off, but it's there.
This discussion is about the respect we show for each other as
individuals in ASSP. You don't have to like others or agree
with what they say. But if we're going to get along civilly we
must accord each other a certain amount of consideration. We
come from different places and cultural groups. We've all got
to accept diversity among us. If we're going to get along as a
group, it seems to me that the very least we can do is to
respect each other's right to worship and to listen when someone
says she has been offended.
jane
MR Brunjes
jane lawrence <jan...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:382B7060...@excite.com...
> Kallynn1 wrote:
> >
> > <snip>But that's like saying that our ignorance justifies insult to
I went back & reread Karla's original response. The text she quoted & her
response was:
ke...@aceinc.com wrote:
>
> My fiance's ex is a total witch....
Just out of curiousity...what does her religion have to do with this? I
mean, do you say someone's a total Jew or total Catholic?
Oh...you meant b*tch.
At the risk of sounding a bit too PC, the term witch does apply to a
practitioner of a specific religion. It is a religion recognized by the
Supreme Court and the US Armed Services. Whether it's a faith you like
or not, it does exist. I find it equally as offensive as terms like
"Jew someone down."
What I personally believe or you personally believe (as I'm not trying
to start a religious debate here...there's a place for that, it's called
an AOL chat room ;) ) is up to you, but to use a religious term in a
degratory manner isn't acceptable. It's an awareness thing...we all
grew up with it, we hear it all the time, but we grew up with a lot of
things that we now know to be wrong.
karla
In all of this it is karla's response that has bothered me most. As so many
have stated, the term "witch" has been in common usage for hundreds of
years. It's current common usage has little to do with magic or religion,
and certainly didn't in the ways it was being used. Each of us has the
right to point out to others when something offends us. But each of us, I
believe, also has the responsibility to inform, in a civil & courteous
manner, the offending party of the error - especially if it is fairly
obvious they have no idea they are offending or even, as was true in this
case, that the term could be construed as anything other than a euphemism
for bitch.
I don't feel that karla's response was either civil or courteous. I believe
she knew what the original poster meant as evidenced by her comment "Oh...
you meant b*tch.". She could have simply pointed out that she objected to
the term and asked the group to stop using it.
And I can't help but wonder if so much of the reaction to karla's objection
has more to do with the manner of her objection than with her desire to have
the group cease using the term witch.
If karla truly thought she was being civil & courteous then I apologize. If
it truly never occurred to karla that there might be people that do not
realize that witch applies to a practioner of a current religion, I
apologize.
>
> I, on the other hand, feel that people should be allowed to
> pursue their religion with freedom from abuse. In my vast and
> varied experience, if people tell you you are slandering their
> religion (or ethnic group, or gender), you are. You might not
> see it right off, but it's there.
>
> This discussion is about the respect we show for each other as
> individuals in ASSP. You don't have to like others or agree
> with what they say. But if we're going to get along civilly we
> must accord each other a certain amount of consideration. We
> come from different places and cultural groups. We've all got
> to accept diversity among us. If we're going to get along as a
> group, it seems to me that the very least we can do is to
> respect each other's right to worship and to listen when someone
> says she has been offended.
>
> jane
Take care of yourselves,
Melody
Anne Robotti
a while ago. If you have a few minutes, go and look up the responses.
They were ... enlightening.
Anne
Kevin
says...
> >But that's like saying that our ignorance justifies insult to
> >karla and members of her religion.
>
> If you read the Post from the beginning you would know that Karla isn't
> Wiccan.
> > Look, you can go ahead and insult people all you want.
>
> Excuse me Jane, I haven't insulted anyone.
Unfortunately, you're not the judge of that. The other person is.
In my view Karla has a right to express when someone or something offends
her. Admittedly there is an element in all these posts of wanting to
control another person's speech - but Karla I felt was ultimately
attempting to raise awareness more than anything. The tone (to me) could
have been different, and maybe then it would not have got up so many
people's noses.... however, when you're feeling sore it's sometimes not
easy to be at peace with your wording.
> Why? Because I defended Kerri's
> right to use the term?
Exactly. And that's fine. I would also defend Karla's right to say 'that
hurts' .... without being batted down.
Kevin
--
I have Male Answer Syndrome. There is no cure.
MRBrunjes
news:MPG.129505ff1...@news.cwcom.net...
> In article <19991110140302...@ng-xb1.aol.com>, Kallynn1
> says...
> > >But that's like saying that our ignorance justifies insult to
> > >karla and members of her religion.
> >
> > If you read the Post from the beginning you would know that Karla isn't
> > Wiccan.
>
> > > Look, you can go ahead and insult people all you want.
> >
> > Excuse me Jane, I haven't insulted anyone.
>
> Unfortunately, you're not the judge of that. The other person is.
>
> In my view Karla has a right to express when someone or something offends
> her. Admittedly there is an element in all these posts of wanting to
> control another person's speech - but Karla I felt was ultimately
> attempting to raise awareness more than anything. The tone (to me) could
> have been different, and maybe then it would not have got up so many
> people's noses.... however, when you're feeling sore it's sometimes not
> easy to be at peace with your wording.
Hear! Hear! Just as the original poster may have been a bit upset at the
time she used the term. Or at least that's what I'm hearing you also say in
your point above & below.
> > Why? Because I defended Kerri's
> > right to use the term?
>
> Exactly. And that's fine. I would also defend Karla's right to say 'that
> hurts' .... without being batted down.
>
> Kevin
> --
> I have Male Answer Syndrome. There is no cure.
Take care of yourselves,
Melody
MRBrunjes
& she seemed to have chosen to ignore your point that using a different tone
or method might have been more productive. After that the responses tend to
be responses to responses sorts of things with that particular point, for
the most part, lost.
Take care of yourselves,
Melody
Anne Robotti <rob...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:382AEE5E...@worldnet.att.net...
Kallynn1
>misreading your posts, you feel that karla has no right to tell
>Kerri that she was offending her.
Your misreading me.....My point to Karla was that Kerri didn't mean or know
that she was offending anyone.
>Deliberately slandering their religion is another.
Jane, at what point did I deliberately slander anyones relgious beliefs? When
i used fairy tales as examples as to why she might have used the word witch...
If you will reread the posts you will see that I was just trying to explain
why Kerri chose the word witch........I never said that all witches were
evil...........bitches......etc...I never said anything out of line about
Wiccan relgion........
Kevin
and groupings within that society changes too - and as that happens,
phrases and expressions start to go in or out of favour. It *always*
meets with resistance amongst a large number of people who are unable or
unwilling to see the underlying root cause of the change - it can be
downright scary to acknowledge acceptance for a group that a few hundred
years ago would have been burnt to death just for being there.
I heard recently that some of the texts _currently_ being used in the
process of becoming a religious official in one of the mainstream
religions (I am *not* going to tell you which one!) still has references
to the evil nature of pagan religions, including Wiccan, and how these
evil influences need be rooted out lest we all go to perdition. It
relates with a positive tone how many hundreds(?) of archers from the
early part of this millenium were burned to death for being 'unnaturally
good' at shooting with the bow and arrow...
However, it is evident that burning of witches or Wiccans in today's
western society has become unknown; at least I personally hope so -
that's just one level of the changes that take hundreds of years to
accomplish. Today, as the change continues, we have someone popping up
and indicating that the use of the term 'witch' in a derogatory manner is
unacceptable to her, and to people who follow that particular path in
life.
Fair enough. If someone comes to me and says "When I hear you use the
word 'witch' in that manner I feel ill at ease, and even pain, because I
need acknowledgment and acceptance of my freedom of choice of beliefs.
Would you be willing to consider what I've said and let me know if you
can understand its importance to me."
Now I can turn blue in the face saying I never meant it the way they took
it - the fact is this person has said that it hurts, and who am I to
judge another person's feelings?
The point that the term has been used for centuries doesn't hold a lot of
weight for me either - the fact that it's been used for so long would
indicate a coresponding period of time that Wiccans, Witches, Pagans have
endured societal suppression. If someone's objections to the use of the
term 'witch' come out in a more violently worded manner than I suggested
above, I'm not surprised.
Kevin
--
Be nice to me. I might be your Secret Snowflake.
In article <80espa$c9$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net>, MRBrunjes says...
MR Brunjes
understanding that as recently as about 10 years ago the United States
census still considered an unmarried woman over the age of 29 to be a
spinster. :) That one still cracks me up.
Take care of yourselves,
Melody
MR Brunjes <MBru...@Erols.Com> wrote in message
news:80elhl$dgg$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net...
Melissa Torresan
wrote:
>I don't know if they have stopped using the term now. But it is my
>understanding that as recently as about 10 years ago the United States
>census still considered an unmarried woman over the age of 29 to be a
>spinster. :) That one still cracks me up.
Rofl! What about "Hoe" - over here in Australia, that is a garden
implement.. then we got Ricki Lake and all these women were calling
each other hoe.. so in my little group of friends, Garden Implement is
a much bigger insult than Hoe.. :)
Oh - we call a fart in the bath a "Torpedo" - and in my family, if
someone says "Ducks wot quack" it means "Vacate the room as quickly as
possible - or find a gas-mask!" - it comes from "I stood on a duck and
it quacked" or something :) Now if my Dad says it, you can be sure
we're running fast!
Mel
>Take care of yourselves,
>Melody
---------------------------------------------------
Melissa Torresan
sm...@crosswinds.net
---------------------------------------------------
Jennaii
irritating people? Now, I dont think "bitch" is harsh enough, and its an
insult to my dog.
I am uncomfortable referring to the birth mother as a "BIG C WORD" (though its
quite fitting, its just TOO crude). So in the future I am going to use the
following acronym: BDSSLLWP2DOPD, (Bottom dwelling, scum sucking, low life
worthless piece of 2 day old pig dung).
"This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" -- Bob Seger
Jennaii
jane lawrence
> So in the future I am going to use the
> following acronym: BDSSLLWP2DOPD, (Bottom dwelling, scum sucking, low life
> worthless piece of 2 day old pig dung).
Hey! What did the pig ever do to you?
jane
Debron
No broken homes.
No domestic violence.
No dee-vorces.
Just a nice, sensible boyfriend with two kids.
=)
D
MR Brunjes <MBru...@Erols.Com> wrote in message
news:80fdn9$lht$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net...
Merrie
Debron <DeeB...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:7MfY3.67492$7I4.1...@news5.giganews.com...
Yvette Campbell
Merrie wrote:
> Why am I so glad you wrote this?
Merrie
flies in the face of the current social pressure that women undergo; that
single women are unacceptable. The belief that she can't be happy unless
married with children...
Merrie
Yvette Campbell <y...@somewhere.com> wrote in message
news:d7wY3.21847$we.3...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> Wishful thinking, maybe, Merrie?
>
> Merrie wrote:
> > Why am I so glad you wrote this?
>
> >Debron wrote: