opinions wanted - complaints about DD to a BM
Zipadee Doodah
I'm a LONG time lurker and could use some opinions.
Background:
I'm a BM, amicably divorced for quite some time now. My ex
and I live in neighboring towns and share the kids (teenagers)
time. Neither of us has remarried though my ex has a live-in
girlfriend (for about 3 years now). My kids are not terribly
fond of the GF. My ex is very easy going and doesn't tend to
notice things left around, etc though I do and so does his
GF. My ex and I try to stay out of involvement with things
going on at the other house.
My DD, 16, is not the neatest child and has to be reminded
to put things away, clean up after herself, etc. She doesn't
tend to think of helping out particularly but will do
things (e.g. set the table) when asked.
Tonight, the GF sent an email to my DD (who won't be over
at their house again til Sunday) and she sent a copy to
me and to my ex. The email was basically complaining about
stuff my DD had left lying around or had not done so that
the GF ended up cleaning up after DD because she's
here for a few days. While I probably mostly agree
with the info in it, I'm REALLY annoyed that she sent
a copy to me. Am I supposed to do something? My DD
hasn't seen the email yet. My ex (as far as I can tell)
doesn't seem to take an active role in backing up his GF
or in telling our DD to clean up after herself at his house.
So, what do I do? Ignore it totally? Tell the GF to keep
me out of it? Tell my ex to tell his GF to leave me out
of it?
Do any of you SMs where things are amicable with the BM
ever complain to her directly about behaviors of SKs?
Thanks for any ideas.
-- Z
WhansaMi
>at their house again til Sunday) and she sent a copy to
>me and to my ex. The email was basically complaining about
>stuff my DD had left lying around or had not done so that
>the GF ended up cleaning up after DD because she's
>here for a few days. While I probably mostly agree
>with the info in it, I'm REALLY annoyed that she sent
>a copy to me. Am I supposed to do something?
My interpretation would be that she wanted to inform the parents of the child,
while still taking matters into her own hands (i.e., not asking you or your ex
to talk to DD about it). I'd see it as her trying to do the right thing, all
around.
My DD
>hasn't seen the email yet. My ex (as far as I can tell)
>doesn't seem to take an active role in backing up his GF
>or in telling our DD to clean up after herself at his house.
>
>So, what do I do? Ignore it totally?
Yes, I'd take it as an FYI, but assume she's taking reponsibility.
Tell the GF to keep
>me out of it?
Nah. It can't hurt your being informed, can it?
Tell my ex to tell his GF to leave me out
>of it?
I wouldn't go that route, no.
Sheila
news.eclipse.co.uk
news:693c375c.04081...@posting.google.com...
> Hi everyone -
snip
>
> So, what do I do? Ignore it totally? Tell the GF to keep
> me out of it? Tell my ex to tell his GF to leave me out
> of it?
>
> Do any of you SMs where things are amicable with the BM
> ever complain to her directly about behaviors of SKs?
>
> Thanks for any ideas.
>
> -- Z
Hi Z
It sounds to me like the GF isn't getting any support from your ex and is
getting pissed off. And I can't blame her. Perhaps you could talk to your ex
and say something like 'hey pal, if she's feeling a need to get me involved
in this it means there's something serious that *you're* not doing. Get
yourself home and straighten it out, because I'm sure neither you nor I want
to go down that road of getting involved in what's going on in each other's
homes'.
Perhaps you could also contact GF and say something like 'I'm sorry DD's
mess is driving you crazy, I know she does it to me sometimes. I really feel
it's not appropriate for me to get involved in what's going on in your
house, it's up to you and ex to sort it out. But I wanted to sympathise even
if there's nothing I can do'.
If I were the GF I think that would help me a lot to hear that from BM, and
perhaps you talking to the ex will give him a kick up the arse too.
Nikki
_calinda_
You guys are being so nice :-). I guess it's hard for me to imagine
since the situation between the ex, MH and I are at such odds, that if I
got an email like that I'd tell her to f*ck off and die <EG>.
However, I think Nikki's idea is a good idea.
I get the feeling the GF was more trying to head your DD off at the pass
at trying to go to you telling you what an overbearing b*tch the GF is
being or something to that affect. I get the impression it was more an
FYI type of thing.
Or perhaps she thought that if you both were having similar problems and
dealt with them together, the three of you could affect a positive
change in the girl's attitude and behavior.
I wonder if this backfires on her, by embarrassing the BD in front of
his ex?
Cal~
news.eclipse.co.uk
"_calinda_" <calinda...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2nv0ugF...@uni-berlin.de...
snip
> I wonder if this backfires on her, by embarrassing the BD in front of
> his ex?
>
> Cal~
I think that's an interesting question. With all of our problems, I never
'grassed up' my ex to his ex. For me at least, it was a big line to cross.
But, in light of our separation, I crossed it yesterday. I told BM that I
would forever deny that the conversation happened, but I briefly said that I
felt she'd need to keep a slightly bigger eye on things seeing as I weren't
going to be there anymore. I told her that my ex is a good Dad, but pretty
slack on discipline, and unless something's right in his face, he refuses to
deal with it.
All of this is why I think the OP might have to recognise that what seems to
be a minor problem of her daughter's untidiness, could actually be a sign
that the SM is overwhelmed and not getting the right support from her
partner.
Nikki
_calinda_
> "_calinda_" <calinda...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:2nv0ugF...@uni-berlin.de...
> snip
>> I wonder if this backfires on her, by embarrassing the BD in front of
>> his ex?
>>
>> Cal~
>
> I think that's an interesting question. With all of our problems, I
> never 'grassed up' my ex to his ex. For me at least, it was a big
> line to cross.
(Grassed up- new one on me ;-) )
Yes, I do think it has to be a line that is delicately crossed, *if at
all*. I would not take kindly to that woman complaining to me, of
course we have such a contentious 'relationship' (hahahaha.. yeah.. as
if that word would ever apply here), that I would probably go off the
deep end, would I recieve anything near what the OP received.
>
> But, in light of our separation, I crossed it yesterday. I told BM
> that I would forever deny that the conversation happened, but I
> briefly said that I felt she'd need to keep a slightly bigger eye on
> things seeing as I weren't going to be there anymore. I told her that
> my ex is a good Dad, but pretty slack on discipline, and unless
> something's right in his face, he refuses to deal with it.
Seems to be (in general) a problem for a lot of dads. Mostly due to the
fact that few of them are the main child-care givers. A lot of them
just don't have to learn how, because they have women to take over. And
in many cases, it's because the women haven't let them learn. Which
comes first? I dunno.
I have seen many cases where the father's are pushed aside, so I do know
it happens. I've also seen cases where the men just can't be bothered
because 'that's women's work'. Either way, I've heard about a lot of
dad's that don't really learn how to parent well, until they've been
forced to do so for whatever reason (such as divorce).
I recall one poster in another group that had a husband who refused to
parent, because it was 'women's work'. Once the divorce happened, and
since the BM was gravely ill, the BD became the CP and he really stepped
up to the plate(according to her- the BM). (She used to lurk here,
don't know if she does anymore).
There is also another lurker on this group that I know from another
group that has related how they fought for years over custody, and she
felt he was a terrible parent at one time, but now not only have a great
working relationship but she feels he's become a very good parent.
> All of this is why I think the OP might have to recognise that what
> seems to be a minor problem of her daughter's untidiness, could
> actually be a sign that the SM is overwhelmed and not getting the
> right support from her partner.
This might be true. But number 1) it's *none* of the BM's business and
2) there is nothing the BM can or should do in regards to the GF getting
proper support from the partner. If the GF is feeling overwhelmed then
she needs to address this with the BD, and should leave the BM out of
it, IMO. If she needs to have support, they should look for a
counselor.
Cal~
> Nikki
Marie
>
> I'm a LONG time lurker and could use some opinions.
>
Hello all,
What would you do if next time your daughter is visiting her Dad, the GF
picked up all what she left behind and put it in the trash bin, bye bye??
I'm assuming, you and the BD would start yelling "why didn't you tell us
there was a problem? Maybe we could've helped?? talked to our daughter??".
What do you think?
Marie
_calinda_
I am not a good person to ask that, lol. I would probably kill the
bitch.
Cal~
news.eclipse.co.uk
I think I just pissed myself. Thanks for that one Cal!
N
_calinda_
> "_calinda_" wrote:
>> Marie wrote:
>>> What would you do if next time your daughter is visiting her Dad,
>>> the GF picked up all what she left behind and put it in the trash
>>> bin, bye bye??
>>>
>>> I'm assuming, you and the BD would start yelling "why didn't you
>>> tell us there was a problem? Maybe we could've helped?? talked to
>>> our daughter??".
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>>>
>>> Marie
>>
>> I am not a good person to ask that, lol. I would probably kill the
>> bitch.
>>
>> Cal~
>
> I think I just pissed myself. Thanks for that one Cal!
Just trying to be honest. :-)
In truth, she has been laying *very* low since the big blow up between
the ex and our DD, which I appreciate (as do the kids).
I don't know if she's just washed her hands of them or what, but things
have been somewhat- smoother- since she backed off and has allowed the
ex to deal with things (and me) himself.
I hope it lasts :-)
Cal~
Zipadee Doodah
> > snip
> >> I wonder if this backfires on her, by embarrassing the BD in front of
> >> his ex?
> >>
> >> Cal~
> >
> > I think that's an interesting question. With all of our problems, I
> > never 'grassed up' my ex to his ex. For me at least, it was a big
> > line to cross.
>
> (Grassed up- new one on me ;-) )
Me too. I couldn't quite tell what it meant from the context. My ex is
fairly easygoing and admits to being a pushover - I don't think he cares
that GF sent a copy to me.
> I have seen many cases where the father's are pushed aside, so I do know
> it happens. I've also seen cases where the men just can't be bothered
> because 'that's women's work'. Either way, I've heard about a lot of
> dad's that don't really learn how to parent well, until they've been
> forced to do so for whatever reason (such as divorce).
>
[snip]
> > All of this is why I think the OP might have to recognise that what
> > seems to be a minor problem of her daughter's untidiness, could
> > actually be a sign that the SM is overwhelmed and not getting the
> > right support from her partner.
>
> This might be true. But number 1) it's *none* of the BM's business and
> 2) there is nothing the BM can or should do in regards to the GF getting
> proper support from the partner. If the GF is feeling overwhelmed then
> she needs to address this with the BD, and should leave the BM out of
> it, IMO. If she needs to have support, they should look for a
> counselor.
Well, I did email back. Started with Nikki's suggestions (thanks!) and
went from there. I sent one email to my ex and one to his GF. Different
messages.
I do think the biggest problem is that my ex doesn't get involved enough.
It isn't that he can't. We separated almost 11 years ago and this GF has
been there 4 years so he can manage on his own. He just doesn't notice
clutter as much as his GF does. After I sent her the email she called me.
(Ugh). She's an okay person, just not my cup of tea. If we met in other
circumstances I doubt if we would become friends. Anyway, at first she
was saying that she only copied me to keep me informed and she didn't
need any suggestions. (I tried gently to suggest ways of changing the
situation so she resented it less and gave suggestions about how to keep
after DD in the ways I do. I just don't get as annoyed.) She didn't
really want that. Basically, she feels DD is growing up (she's 16) and
should be neater without being told.
I'm not saying my DD shouldn't be neater, I just don't think GF really
knows how to deal with it. The kids resent the GF and *I* really think
my ex should play more of a role. He thinks the relationship between
GF and DD is their business and he should stay out of it. My son tells
me that if GF and DD get into a yelling fight, he (DS) and his dad
try to stay clear.
I did suggest to GF at one point in the phone call that she get BD (my ex)
more involved and that HE should be telling DD to clean up. Her response
was "well, he's a man, he doesn't notice these things". Urk. So she won't
expect him to step up and enforce her standards "because he's a man" but
"because she's a teen" is not considered as part of the problem.
She doesn't seem to recognize teenage self-centeredness and just expects
DD to change because she (GF) finds clutter frustrating. She also doesn't
like doing things for the kids and not getting gratitude from them. I told
her to get that from BD and not do things for the kids if she resents it.
GF equates neatness with maturity. Some people will take better care of
a place when they grow up and have their own place but not all adults are
as neat as GF seems to think they are. I'm not sure how neat a person DD
will end up being.
DD has told me in the past that when she has left her shoes lying around
instead of putting them in the designated place, GF has thrown them
outside. Put them in some corner or something, sure, but not where they
could get ruined. And if the kids didn't take their clean
folded laundry (which they do themselves at both houses) out of the baskets
soon enough to suit GF because she wanted the baskets, she
would dump it out on their beds so it got unfolded. (Who's the adult here?)
I convinced my ex this summer to buy a few more laundry baskets, maybe that
will help.
Maybe I'm just venting. I wish, for my kids sake, that things were smoother
over there but I really don't want to be involved in things over there
and I wish I hadn't received the email either.
-- Z
Vicki Robinson
>Maybe I'm just venting. I wish, for my kids sake, that things were smoother
>over there but I really don't want to be involved in things over there
>and I wish I hadn't received the email either.
I'm one of the messiest people on this newsgroup, I'll bet. So I'm
not coming at this from the position of a neat freak who thinks that
everyone should be like me. But I'm wondering if maybe your daughter
paying a bit more attention to her things at her dad's place might not
be a good idea. After all, no one dies from putting her shoes in the
closet, or putting clean laundry away.
It sounds like the GF is just getting tired of saying the same things
over and over and having everyone blithely ignoring her preferences
about how her own home should be kept.
The parents should be reasonably in charge, and that includes getting
to call the shots about the level of mess that will be tolerated. It
doesn't sound as if she's being unreasonably picayune about it, and
the child in question isn't three; why not just suggest that DD clean
up her act while she's there. It's not a bad habit to cultivate.
Vicki
--
Power may be justly compared to a great river; while kept within its
bounds it is both beautiful and useful, but when it overflows its banks,
it is then too impetuous to be stemmed; it bears down all before it,
and brings destruction and desolation wherever it goes." -- Alexander Hamilton.
Zipadee Doodah
> What would you do if next time your daughter is visiting her Dad, the GF
> picked up all what she left behind and put it in the trash bin, bye bye??
>
> I'm assuming, you and the BD would start yelling "why didn't you tell us
> there was a problem? Maybe we could've helped?? talked to our daughter??".
>
> What do you think?
Well, if it was their dishes, I'd think it was pretty stupid. :-)
Putting the stuff aside and making DD "ransom" it back, either with money
or chores, would be reasonable. Throwing out things that she needs
would NOT, IMO. But she and my ex should discuss it and decide on
what consequences they want to impose in their house and (IMO) my
ex should be the one to explain the rules.
If it was a book or clothing that DD NEEDED I
would assume someone over there would replace it. It would
be up to my ex whether he or DD paid for it. I really don't
want to be involved in this conflict in living styles.
Vicki, I have suggested to DD that she clean up after herself.
I'm not sure why GF thinks that it's okay for BD to not see
clutter but it isn't okay for DD to not see it.
No, the BD wouldn't say "why didn't you tell us". I certainly
wouldn't. He KNOWS there's a problem between the two of them -
he just prefers to avoid conflict and pretend it doesn't exist.
The GF sees the problem purely as DD and doesn't seem to expect
BD to do anything (or she's given up hope). I know there's
conflict too - I just don't want to be drawn into what
is my ex's job to deal with or the relationship between my
ex and GF or DD.
DD is messy at my house too! I just call her to account constantly
and don't let it bother me as much. Why does anyone think that if
I haven't gotten her to be completely aware of clutter when
at my house, that I have any influence over what she does at Dad's?
The last time there was a conflict between GF and DD where they
pulled me into it (GF called me and wanted DD to spend less time
over there and I posted about it at that time under this username
if anyone cares to Google it) I suggested to my ex that they try
counseling. He ignored the suggestion - didn't think it was
warranted. I know *I* found in the past
that he heard me best in counseling. If GF ever calls me again,
maybe I'll suggest it.
I have a question for folks. If it were the GF posting here (and
assuming that though everyone has their own views on a situation that
it is basically as I've stated), what would you suggest to her?
-- Z
_calinda_
> I have a question for folks. If it were the GF posting here (and
> assuming that though everyone has their own views on a situation that
> it is basically as I've stated), what would you suggest to her?
>
> -- Z
I would have said basically the same thing. That this is a relationship
issue, and that the GF needs to make sure she and the father are on the
same page with how things will be run at their household. They need to
make the rules ahead of time of what will and will not be tolerated, and
that the kids will know what the consequences will be.
I think many times, it becomes a major problem when the non-bioparent
becomes the sole disciplinarian in a household. It sounds like this may
be the case in your GF's situation and maybe she needs to back off and
have the father take over. Of course, it sounds like the father doesn't
give a rat's patootie, in which case I reiterate it's a relationship
issue and they need to address that.
It might help those of us who are struggling with these young teens to
know that new research is showing that things like poor judgment for
kids between the ages of 13 and 16 (when all the troubles seem to be in
raising kids), is caused by the changes their brains are going through.
Perhaps their lack of understanding that they would get less grief all
around, if they did some simple things to be helpful can be understood a
little better, knowing it's all part of their brain growing. I dunno.
I don't want to excuse their misbehavior, at the same time, I do want to
understand more of why they are the way they are. It just seems to
universal to me that kids just don't like picking up their stuff, even
if they've been raised to do so. Why that is, seems to be a mystery.
http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/relatedarticles/22274.php
Cal~
The Watsons
> Zipadee Doodah wrote:
> > I have a question for folks. If it were the GF posting here (and
> > assuming that though everyone has their own views on a situation that
> > it is basically as I've stated), what would you suggest to her?
> I would have said basically the same thing. That this is a relationship
> issue, and that the GF needs to make sure she and the father are on the
> same page with how things will be run at their household. They need to
> make the rules ahead of time of what will and will not be tolerated, and
> that the kids will know what the consequences will be.
That, and my comment would be to nitpick over things like dirty dishes that
could attract roaches, a dirty bathroom that could make someone sick, and to
be sure the clothes were at least in the direction of the hamper. Otherwise,
don't worry about it too much-DD will eventually get tired of living in a
dirty room, and she'll eventually get tired of not being able to find her
shoes or her books or whatever else is lost in the clutter that she wants.
If her room is that nauseating, shut the door. :)
Jess
news.eclipse.co.uk
"Zipadee Doodah" <phonef...@yahoo.com> wrote in message snip
> DD has told me in the past that when she has left her shoes lying around
> instead of putting them in the designated place, GF has thrown them
> outside. Put them in some corner or something, sure, but not where they
> could get ruined. And if the kids didn't take their clean
> folded laundry (which they do themselves at both houses) out of the
baskets
> soon enough to suit GF because she wanted the baskets, she
> would dump it out on their beds so it got unfolded. (Who's the adult
here?)
> I convinced my ex this summer to buy a few more laundry baskets, maybe
that
> will help.
>
> Maybe I'm just venting. I wish, for my kids sake, that things were
smoother
> over there but I really don't want to be involved in things over there
> and I wish I hadn't received the email either.
>
> -- Z
I'm sorry but these examples totally made me LOL. Admittedly, my nearly 15
year old stepson has lived with me and his Dad for 8 years, his mother
having gone from not involved at all for about four years to having been a
twice a month parent for the last four.
I repeatedly ask my SS to put his shoes away. And I have, on occasion, put
them outside. It pisses me off, him and my ex both leave three pairs inside
the back door for me to trip over them. I throw DH's outside too, especially
if he's left them in the middle of the kitchen floor. To be fair, with SS, I
ask him nicely to start putting them away or he's going to find them
outside. I don't just do it randomly.
But hey, my Mom used to nag my sister about her bedroom floor being
invisible under piles of clothes, and threatened to throw it all out of the
window one day. My sister thought she was kidding, until she came home one
day and saw Mom doing it. Most of it ended up on the patio but some did go
in the back garden pond!!
I would also dump unfolded washing on SS's bed if I'd asked him to do it and
he hadn't. I might give him a couple of chances, but I'd definitely go there
if I had to.
My ex believes in tidying his son's shoes up for him. Fine. Doesn't teach
'em anything though.
Maybe I'm just a mean Mommy!
Nikki
Kerri Clair
>I have a question for folks. If it were the GF posting here (and
>assuming that though everyone has their own views on a situation that
>it is basically as I've stated), what would you suggest to her?
I would suggest to her:
1. Have a talk with your BF and inform him that you are NOT his kid's maid or
nanny. If he continues to expect her to be his kid's maid and/or nanny then he
better start paying her (the GF) whatever the going rate is in their area for
personal maids/nannies for other people's children.
2. Remind her BF that care of his children (including cleaning up after them)
is entirely HIS responsibility on his children's time with him, not her
responsibility.
3. Ignore a kid's messy bedroom or bathroom if she is the only one who uses
those spaces. Just shut the doors if it bugs you to look at it, but make NO
attempt to clean it up yourself. Complain if you want, but only about
*commonly used* areas where the kid might be leaving messes that you always end
up cleaning.
4. Ignore a kid's request to "Help me find <fill in the blank>! I need it
right now and I don't know where it is!" If the kid won't be organized with
her stuff then finding lost items is entirely her responsibility, parents (or
stepparents) will NOT be responsible for finding or replacing lost items
regardless of how much those items are needed "right now".
If she posted and indicated that she wanted to send the girl an email, and
asked if she should CC the parents, I would advise that it would probably be a
good idea to CC BOTH parents as an FYI and as a CYA (cover your ass). I would
advise that not as a suggestion that the non-resident BM should get involved or
do anything, but again just as an FYI and CYA just to guard against the
conflict possibly being turned into anything other than what it is because
someone wasn't informed of the actual conflict.
If the problem continued despite discussing it with her BF then I would advise
her that she is being USED for free childcare/cleaning/cooking services and
that she should consider leaving his sorry ass so he will finally either step
up to the plate and care for his own children or hire someone to do it if he
won't do it himself.
-Kerri
Vicki Robinson
>DD will eventually get tired of living in a
>dirty room, and she'll eventually get tired of not being able to find her
>shoes or her books or whatever else is lost in the clutter that she wants.
When does that happen? I'll be 52 in October, and I'm still waiting
to get tired enough of the mess to keep things neat.
Don't get me wrong. I'm tired of the mess. Just not tired *enough* I
guess.
Marie
> assuming that though everyone has their own views on a situation that
> it is basically as I've stated), what would you suggest to her?
I personally wouldn't involve the BM in such a thing.
I take care of things at my household myself, the only other adult who
should be taking care of this matter with me is my husband.
My SKs lived with me for 3 years, full time, visiting their Mom every other
weekend. Now that we moved 3000 miles away, they come and visit for the
summer.
They now are doing things they never did in our household when they used to
live with us, I wouldn't go into details as much it's messy and
disgusting...
My only talk was with the Dad, after having repeated things many times with
no avail, I said that from now on, I will go as far as waking them up in the
middle of the night should I find the toilet not flushed and make them clean
it... and so on with other things, that I will not repeat myself twice
anymore, if they care enough about something, put it in its proper place,
otherwise, no can do.
The Watsons
"Vicki Robinson" <vjr...@xcski.com> wrote in message
news:cfgg0j$9g1$1...@allhats.xcski.com...
> When does that happen? I'll be 52 in October, and I'm still waiting
> to get tired enough of the mess to keep things neat.
Damned if I know-I'm not sure where my keys are again. :D
Jess
Anne Robotti
Doodah) wrote:
>I have a question for folks. If it were the GF posting here (and
>assuming that though everyone has their own views on a situation that
>it is basically as I've stated), what would you suggest to her?
What I would tell her is to pick the dealbreakers and concentrate on
them. Stuff in the common areas might be one, but let them slide on
their rooms. Or vice versa. Doing the dishes every other night instead
of every night, one washes one dries. I'd suggest a foot up the ass
for the husband, but of course I always go there faster than anybody.
Anne
Amy Lou
"Zipadee Doodah"
> I have a question for folks. If it were the GF posting here (and
> assuming that though everyone has their own views on a situation that
> it is basically as I've stated), what would you suggest to her?
I'd suggest she go on strike, to not do anything for her SD until she and
her SD can come to some sort of agreement about what they need from each
other.
Amy
Zipadee Doodah
>
> I would suggest to her:
>
> 1. Have a talk with your BF and inform him that you are NOT his kid's
> maid or nanny. If he continues to expect her to be his kid's maid
> and/or nanny then he better start paying her (the GF) whatever
> the going rate is in their area for personal maids/nannies for
> other people's children.
>
> 2. Remind her BF that care of his children (including cleaning up after them)
> is entirely HIS responsibility on his children's time with him, not her
> responsibility.
>
> 3. Ignore a kid's messy bedroom or bathroom if she is the only one who uses
> those spaces. Just shut the doors if it bugs you to look at it, but make NO
> attempt to clean it up yourself. Complain if you want, but only about
> *commonly used* areas where the kid might be leaving messes that you
> always endu p cleaning.
>
> 4. Ignore a kid's request to "Help me find <fill in the blank>! I need it
> right now and I don't know where it is!" If the kid won't be organized with
> her stuff then finding lost items is entirely her responsibility, parents (or
> stepparents) will NOT be responsible for finding or replacing lost items
> regardless of how much those items are needed "right now".
>
> her that she is being USED for free childcare/cleaning/cooking services and
> that she should consider leaving his sorry ass so he will finally either step
> up to the plate and care for his own children or hire someone to do it if he
> won't do it himself.
>
> -Kerri
Thanks for your comments. Actually, I don't think BD expects
GF to be the kids' maid or nanny at all. It's just that
if they leave things around it bothers the GF more than it
bothers BD so sometimes she feels she HAS to say something
to DD because BD doesn't notice or care as much about clutter.
I think GF does ignore DD's messy bedroom - the complaints DO seem
to be about common areas.
In fact, they DO have someone who comes in to clean (weekly, every
2 weeks? I don't know). So BD really isn't expecting that of GF.
But GF is the one who notices that things are lying around, especially
before the cleaners come, and she gets irritated. Sometimes these
things need to be put away because the cleaners are coming and DD
isn't there so GF feels she has to do it and resents it. Or GF
gets annoyed if DD's shoes are lying around instead of being put
in the designated area they have for shoes and she has to walk
over them. I don't like it when DD does this at my house either
but DD is at my house more so I can tell her to put them away.
For the most part, I believe that BD does take care of the kids
and doesn't expect GF to do it. GF just has different (higher)
standards for the way the house should be (and I'm not saying
they're unreasonable ones) and, AFAIK, while my ex probably
doesn't object to them, he doesn't notice when the kids' stuff
doesn't meet her standards. So he leaves it to GF to tell DD
to clean up and doesn't say anything himself.
BD DOES take care of the kids - he drives them around when they are going
somewhere from his house. In 4 years I can only recall GF driving
them somewhere once or twice - when BD was ill or when DS was
hospitalized last year. BD, not GF, cooks dinner when the kids
are there, etc. He does grocery shopping, etc. So I don't think
BD is taking advantage of GF. He just doesn't back her up on
something that is apparently more important to her than to him.
I don't think BD asks for help finding her things much. She isn't
completely irresponsible with her stuff.
-- Z
Zipadee Doodah
and intend to let it go and leave problems at my ex's house
to him. I don't think I really needed to be cc'ed on the email in
the first place. I don't know if GF thinks that DD is neat at my
house or what. I do think DD's teenager mentality plays a role
though - DD doesn't like GF and feels like if she follows GF's
rules (which is how she perceives them, not as her dad's rules)
then GF somehow "wins".
Yesterday was quite interesting. My daughter was having a few friends
over. She straightened up, she made some fruit salad for them the
other evening and, for once, cleaned up after herself completely so
that I couldn't tell she had been in the kitchen (usually she leaves
1 or 2 things around). She even walked to the grocery store to get
ingredients so she could bake for her friends. So I know she CAN
notice things that need to be put away. By evening, though,
things were more normal and I had to remind her to finish cleaning
up after she'd cooked something else and call her back downstairs
in the evening to take her shoes away ...
-- Z
Zipadee Doodah
That probably wouldn't help in this case. I believe that GF doesn't
do that much for the kids and BD does. He cooks for them, he drives
them places, he shops. It was like that before GF moved in so it
hasn't changed. The kids do their own laundry. I don't think
DD needs anything from GF which gives GF very little leverage with
the kids.
-- Z
Amy Lou
Looks like SM is stumped! Well, lucky it isn't your problem. :)
Amy
jane
> You guys are being so nice :-). I guess it's hard for me to imagine
> since the situation between the ex, MH and I are at such odds, that if I
> got an email like that I'd tell her to f*ck off and die <EG>.
Oh, good. I thought it was just me.
>
> However, I think Nikki's idea is a good idea.
Yeah, maybe, I don't know. I may be overly sensitive about this, but
I cannot stand people trying to drag me into their relationships.
This is what I would do. I would email GF, and just GF, as follows:
If you want to talk to me about my kid or my ex, call me. If you want
to have a group meeting, say so. Do not carbon me on any messages to
anyone else ever. Never blind carbon me, because if you did I would
have to immediately disclose that to everyone else who received the
message.
I'm sorry that you guys are having trouble hammering out your
different neatness levels. I can commiserate.
jane
>
> Cal~
jane
> assuming that though everyone has their own views on a situation that
> it is basically as I've stated), what would you suggest to her?
>
> -- Z
I would suggest that she have a cleaning lady come in more often for
the next few years. Or maybe that she should get over herself.
If the problem at your ex's house is that his GF isn't getting her own
way on the neatness level in the home, then why isn't she working on
that directly? Why isn't she just buying it for herself, either with
cash to a cleaning lady or time and effort picking up after the
others? See my point here? If you want something, buy it, don't
badger other people to give it to you.
That said, the standard answer around here is: you have a marital
problem masquerading as a step-parenting problem.
jane
Vicki Robinson
>If the problem at your ex's house is that his GF isn't getting her own
>way on the neatness level in the home, then why isn't she working on
>that directly? Why isn't she just buying it for herself, either with
>cash to a cleaning lady or time and effort picking up after the
>others? See my point here? If you want something, buy it, don't
>badger other people to give it to you.
I disagree, Jane. If someone else is making work for you, why should
you go to the expense of paying more to your cleaning person (and I
don't know about you, but my cleaning ladies *clean*, they don't pick
up. They don't know where everything goes.) or doing the work
yourself? A teenager is well able to pick up after herself, and it
*is* disrespectful for her to be leaving things around after she's
been told otherwise.
However, I do think this is none of the biomom's business. It's
between the GF, the daughter and the biodad.
WhansaMi
>>way on the neatness level in the home, then why isn't she working on
>>that directly? Why isn't she just buying it for herself, either with
>>cash to a cleaning lady or time and effort picking up after the
>>others? See my point here? If you want something, buy it, don't
>>badger other people to give it to you.
>
>I disagree, Jane. If someone else is making work for you, why should
>you go to the expense of paying more to your cleaning person (and I
>don't know about you, but my cleaning ladies *clean*, they don't pick
>up. They don't know where everything goes.) or doing the work
>yourself? A teenager is well able to pick up after herself, and it
>*is* disrespectful for her to be leaving things around after she's
>been told otherwise.
I agree with this.
>
>However, I do think this is none of the biomom's business. It's
>between the GF, the daughter and the biodad.
I agree that the *issue* is between the GF, the daughter and the biodad, but
I'm seeing the cc: a bit differently. The GF, in the later conversation, made
it clear that she just wanted to keep the mom apprised of the circumstances,
not that she wanted her to do anything about it. I think that is reasonable,
especially given how often we see people getting bent out of shape when the
children are chastised. The kid goes back to mom and tells her how mean the SM
was. The mom gets all upset about how things were presented. It seems to me
that the GF was just trying to keep everything out in the open, and make sure
that her message was given back to the SM in the most acurrate way possible.
I still don't see where she did anything wrong.
Sheila
Marie
"WhansaMi" <whan...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040814152910...@mb-m03.aol.com...
I agree with Vicky's view and also yours, it all depends how you're looking
at it.
As a SM in a similar situation, I wouldn't make a big deal and email or cc
the Mom. This is an issue that can be taken care of at my household.
On the other hand, just today, I'm finding myself wanting to email (not cc)
the Mom about her kids' extremely odd behavior. When they lived with us as
CP, this behavior never occured, we never have seen hate in their eyes and
wanting to just destroy things and revenge. I find that she needs to know
that her kids are full of it since they started living with her... long
story. My email to her, not to throw blames or any of the kind, just to make
her aware of things and see how she can remedy this behavior, they go back
to her end of the summer.
It is essential to keep the parents/stepparents informed of things happening
in the kids' life and behavior, for everybody's sake.
Again Z, if you put a good word to your daughter to pick up after herself
when at Dad's, it won't hurt anybody, coming from you is different, and
maybe this is what the GF meant. Kids tend to not care in one, and second,
they feel that this may make mommy happy to upset the GF/Stepmom.
Marie
jane
> In a previous article, jan...@yahoo.com (jane) said:
>
> >If the problem at your ex's house is that his GF isn't getting her own
> >way on the neatness level in the home, then why isn't she working on
> >that directly? Why isn't she just buying it for herself, either with
> >cash to a cleaning lady or time and effort picking up after the
> >others? See my point here? If you want something, buy it, don't
> >badger other people to give it to you.
>
> I disagree, Jane. If someone else is making work for you, why should
> you go to the expense of paying more to your cleaning person (and I
> don't know about you, but my cleaning ladies *clean*, they don't pick
> up. They don't know where everything goes.) or doing the work
> yourself? A teenager is well able to pick up after herself, and it
> *is* disrespectful for her to be leaving things around after she's
> been told otherwise.
I don't know where to begin with this. I guess we know whose daughter
is home and whose is off with her father.
"Told otherwise," eh? If DD refused to pick up a specific soda can
when you told her to, I could see your point. Cleaning up after
herself is a different kettle of fish. Leaving things around is
generally not a conscious act. Maybe sometimes someone somewhere
thinks, "I'll just leave this can here; SM/BM will pick it up." IMVE
it's far more likely to be procrastination combined with disinterest.
What you have is a household full of people with different neatness
requirements or preferences. That's not disrepectful. They're
different people. If GF cannot adjust the preferences of those around
her, she should find ways to keep the house within her neatness level.
I do not recommend banging her head against the wall of making a
person with a higher mess tolerance level do the work. That requires
persistent committed nagging; it means pointing out the specific
differences between her level and DD's every time. What GF sees as DD
making work for her, DD sees as GF making work for her: That pair of
shoes in the middle of the living room floor is not messy to DD, and
neither is the glass beside the kitchen sink. They're not disagreeing
about who picks them up, but about whether they need to be picked up
at all.
If you are going to impose your will regardless of the others'
preferences, you have to be able to say, "We're all doing this my way,
no matter what you want." Then you have to be able to answer the
charge that you are the one being disrepectful.
I can hear the band tuning up for the "My House My Rules March" in the
distance. It's hard to be the custodial stepparent of a teen. Your
rules don't necessarily mean squat. The kid wants to be treated as an
adult, and you have no desire to live with another adult. But the
truth is it's really not GF's house any more than it is DD's. Her
rules, her told otherwises are an expression of her preferences.
Stating them does not automatically get her what she wants from the
rest of the group. And if I were the teen SD, I can't see myself
being particularly moved by her desire for a squeaky clean house. I'd
be saying "I understand you want things picked up, I just don't
understand why you're telling *me.*"
jane
jane
> I find that she needs to know
> that her kids are full of it since they started living with her... long
> story. My email to her, not to throw blames or any of the kind, just to make
> her aware of things and see how she can remedy this behavior, they go back
> to her end of the summer.
Hooboy! You can safely bet your life savings that one's not going to go over well.
jane
>
> Marie
Wendy
"news.eclipse.co.uk" <nikn...@impactwp.com> wrote in message
news:bpadnddhEPm...@eclipse.net.uk...
> Perhaps you could also contact GF and say something like 'I'm sorry DD's
> mess is driving you crazy, I know she does it to me sometimes. I really
feel
> it's not appropriate for me to get involved in what's going on in your
> house, it's up to you and ex to sort it out. But I wanted to sympathise
even
> if there's nothing I can do'.
>
> If I were the GF I think that would help me a lot to hear that from BM,
and
> perhaps you talking to the ex will give him a kick up the arse too.
I'm not sure that I wouldn't feel irritated by someone who is a parent of
this child offering sympathy, but no support. I'm not sure that the SM in
question isn't seeking both parents to lend some support to her requests, so
it's not just perceived as wicked SM stuff.
OTOH, my older daughter, Louise, sometimes feels that we are ganging up on
her, when my ex, Barclay and I sing from the same hymn sheet.
Wendy
Wendy
> You guys are being so nice :-). I guess it's hard for me to imagine
> since the situation between the ex, MH and I are at such odds, that if I
> got an email like that I'd tell her to f*ck off and die <EG>.
I don't understand this at all. Co-parenting requires parents to work
together, generally, and agree on an approach so as not to be manipulated.
Another aspect might be wanting the parents to witness what she's said.
This may be a way of ensuring that the SD doesn't throw her own
interpretation on what has been said.
> I wonder if this backfires on her, by embarrassing the BD in front of
> his ex?
I've been suggesting to my older daughter and to Barclay that they have to
own their own relationship, especially as it creates a lot of stress on me
if I have to be the intermediary for both of them.
Wendy
Wendy
> This might be true. But number 1) it's *none* of the BM's business and
> 2) there is nothing the BM can or should do in regards to the GF getting
> proper support from the partner. If the GF is feeling overwhelmed then
> she needs to address this with the BD, and should leave the BM out of
> it, IMO. If she needs to have support, they should look for a
> counselor.
I see it completely differently. To me, there are three parents and as
always parents need to work together and support each other in parenting
children.
Wendy
Wendy
"jane" <jan...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1b740b47.04081...@posting.google.com...
> What you have is a household full of people with different neatness
> requirements or preferences. That's not disrepectful. They're
> different people.
Sometimes everyone needs to compromise a little, though, don't they?
Sometimes individual's requirements change and levels have to be adjusted,
too.
Wendy
Anne Robotti
<we...@hundredakerwood.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>"_calinda_" <calinda...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:2nv0ugF...@uni-berlin.de...
>> You guys are being so nice :-). I guess it's hard for me to imagine
>> since the situation between the ex, MH and I are at such odds, that if I
>> got an email like that I'd tell her to f*ck off and die <EG>.
>
>I don't understand this at all. Co-parenting requires parents to work
>together, generally, and agree on an approach so as not to be manipulated.
I'll tell you something, this is *so* true. My SD jerks her Mom and
Dad around like you wouldn't believe because they're too immature to
talk to each other. She always has, since she was five years old.
Anne
_calinda_
> "_calinda_" wrote in message
>> You guys are being so nice :-). I guess it's hard for me to imagine
>> since the situation between the ex, MH and I are at such odds, that
>> if I got an email like that I'd tell her to f*ck off and die <EG>.
>
> I don't understand this at all. Co-parenting requires parents to work
> together, generally, and agree on an approach so as not to be
> manipulated.
It has to do with the person my children's step-mother is and how she
has treated me, personally as well as how she treats my children. Note
this part:
"since the situation between the ex, MH and I are at such odds"
And you must remember how long I tried to 'co-parent' with those two
before I gave up. You can only set yourself up to be battered and
abused so many times before you become hardened against it.
I stand by my original statement: "if I got an email like that". What
I'm saying is what I would do. Not saying necessarily what someone else
should do.
> Another aspect might be wanting the parents to witness what she's
> said. This may be a way of ensuring that the SD doesn't throw her own
> interpretation on what has been said.
Yes, I agree on that point. I thought I said it, but perhaps I only
thought it.
>> I wonder if this backfires on her, by embarrassing the BD in front of
>> his ex?
>
> I've been suggesting to my older daughter and to Barclay that they
> have to own their own relationship, especially as it creates a lot of
> stress on me if I have to be the intermediary for both of them.
I meant BioDad, not BioDaughter, sorry. I should have specified. (I
should've used BF except that I think of a BF as Boy Friend, instead of
BioFather).
I don't know if the BioDad would appreciate his Girl Friend running to
his ex wife for back up when they're having trouble.
I just asked my SO what he would feel if he were in the position of the
OP's ex-husband. He said he would be furious. I know I'd be *furious*
if my SO went to my ex like this. I would look at it as the SO trying
to manipulate me in some way.
Cal~
>
> Wendy
_calinda_
You live a different life than I. And I don't see it that way.
I see it as the GF trying to manipulate the Bio Father into doing
something using his ex -wife against him. Something he doesn't care to
do, and to me this has nothing whatsoever to do with the Ex-wife. It
has to do with them. They need counseling to learn how to deal with
conflicts in their household.
Cal~
Zipadee Doodah
So if Barclay had some issue at your house with your daughters, you would
think it was fine if your ex got involved? Your ex didn't have children
with Barclay nor does he (ex) live in your house.
When there are 3 (or 4) parents, I think ideally the bioparents should
cooperate and co-parent however the issues of what goes on in each
house should be left to the adults who live in it. (I'm not talking
about extremes like abuse.)
My ex and I cooperate very well and as far as I know, the kids
have never tried to manipulate the situation. (Seems unlikely but
I really can't think of any incidents where they tried.) But I
don't really get involved with his household or his GF if I
can help it.
One thing I really appreciate about this group is that I've seen that
even in situations where people get along and do their best to prepare
the kids for a new SO moving in with them, it's hard, so I'm convinced
I never want to do this. I'll stick to seeing my boyfriend mostly when
the kids are with their dad.
-- Z
Zipadee Doodah
So if Barclay had some issue at your house with your daughters, you would
Zipadee Doodah
Wish I could send this to my ex's GF. But I'm too close to the
situation for her to take it from me. I love your wording -
especially the first sentence of that last paragraph about the
"band tuning up ..."
-- Z
Wendy
"Anne Robotti" <arob...@deletemelscomm.net> wrote in message
news:ktf3i05tfa4puvn6h...@4ax.com...
> I'll tell you something, this is *so* true. My SD jerks her Mom and
> Dad around like you wouldn't believe because they're too immature to
> talk to each other. She always has, since she was five years old.
Goodness knows, Anne, I always try to make sure my ex knows what my approach
to a situation is and why, though he's always been a person who adopted a
strategy of whatever was easiest for him, rather than whatever was best for
the children.
When we talk to the kids together, all three of us, it's a lot easier, but
my children can be very manipulative, without even really understanding that
that is what they are doing.
Wendy
Wendy
> I don't know if the BioDad would appreciate his Girl Friend running to
> his ex wife for back up when they're having trouble.
If she'd written to his ex, but not to him, I'd agree that it was
inappropriate, but the fact that she copied them both sounds like it's
trying to get them all to work together to me.
Wendy
Wendy
> I see it as the GF trying to manipulate the Bio Father into doing
> something using his ex -wife against him. Something he doesn't care to
> do, and to me this has nothing whatsoever to do with the Ex-wife. It
> has to do with them. They need counseling to learn how to deal with
> conflicts in their household.
Well, I know that people talk about children coping with different rules in
different households, and I certainly agree that the onus is on the BP to be
the one to enforce discipline, but it's very easy for someone who is home
full time to end up carrying the brunt with respect to rule enforcement,
however active a parent is.
Wendy
Wendy
> So if Barclay had some issue at your house with your daughters, you would
> think it was fine if your ex got involved? Your ex didn't have children
> with Barclay nor does he (ex) live in your house.
Barclay talks to my ex all the time, as do I. Likewise, my ex talks to both
Barclay and I depending on who is home at the time, though generally our
interactions are directly with each other.
This situation is different. This SM hasn't talked to her boy friend's ex
in isolation, but to both of them at the same time. In my book, that's no
different from calling a meeting of parents before a family meeting in order
to tease out issues in advance.
> When there are 3 (or 4) parents, I think ideally the bioparents should
> cooperate and co-parent however the issues of what goes on in each
> house should be left to the adults who live in it. (I'm not talking
> about extremes like abuse.)
I don't dictate what my ex does in his house, any more than Barclay does,
but when what is happening affects both households, I don't think it
inappropriate for all the parents to try and focus on the practicalities
together.
> My ex and I cooperate very well and as far as I know, the kids
> have never tried to manipulate the situation. (Seems unlikely but
> I really can't think of any incidents where they tried.)
It does. My ex and I have an excellent co-parenting relationship, but he's
far more lenient than I and my girls do try to manipulate the situation.
Children from the age of n are very perceptive and work out whatever
weaknesses are afforded them. Call me cynical and as much as I love them.
But I
> don't really get involved with his household or his GF if I
> can help it.
I don't tell my ex what to do, but I do try to talk to him about situations
because it's rare that a situation doesn't potentially affect both
households.
> One thing I really appreciate about this group is that I've seen that
> even in situations where people get along and do their best to prepare
> the kids for a new SO moving in with them, it's hard, so I'm convinced
> I never want to do this. I'll stick to seeing my boyfriend mostly when
> the kids are with their dad.
I think that's good advice. Barclay and the girls like each other, but
there is still resentment on both parts in what is already a complex
situation. The girls definitely preferred it when he visited at weekends
and wasn't here full time. OTOH, they do like Barclay, it's just that his
style of parenting and mine are as different as my ex's and mine, but in
different ways. I suspect that it's few and far between the people who all
adopt a style that is completely the same, because we've all grown up with
different experiences ourselves.
Wendy
> -- Z
Vicki Robinson
>"Told otherwise," eh? If DD refused to pick up a specific soda can
>when you told her to, I could see your point. Cleaning up after
>herself is a different kettle of fish. Leaving things around is
>generally not a conscious act. Maybe sometimes someone somewhere
>thinks, "I'll just leave this can here; SM/BM will pick it up." IMVE
>it's far more likely to be procrastination combined with disinterest.
I agree, but it still says that my preferences are OK to ignore. And,
by the way, I'm *not* ignoring her preferences; in her private space,
she can do as she likes, but in public space, which cannot be allowed
to collect junk infinitely, that must be picked up sometime, she
can't.
>What you have is a household full of people with different neatness
>requirements or preferences. That's not disrepectful. They're
>different people.
Yes.
>If GF cannot adjust the preferences of those around
>her, she should find ways to keep the house within her neatness level.
> I do not recommend banging her head against the wall of making a
>person with a higher mess tolerance level do the work. That requires
>persistent committed nagging; it means pointing out the specific
>differences between her level and DD's every time. What GF sees as DD
>making work for her, DD sees as GF making work for her: That pair of
>shoes in the middle of the living room floor is not messy to DD, and
>neither is the glass beside the kitchen sink. They're not disagreeing
>about who picks them up, but about whether they need to be picked up
>at all.
But they do, eventually. Sooner or later, you run out of clean socks
if you just leave the dirty ones everywhere. You *have* to pick them
up sooner or later. Dirty dishes left on the kitchen counter? No one
can prepare food in a kitchen once a certain density of dirty dishes
is reached. All of the bowls and pans are dirty, and there is no
clean space to work in. The work has to get done. The question is
who does it and when does it get done? My answer is that I should not
be expected to do other people's picking up, and there is no
defensible rationale behind waiting until the mess is a health or
navigation hazard.
>If you are going to impose your will regardless of the others'
>preferences, you have to be able to say, "We're all doing this my way,
>no matter what you want." Then you have to be able to answer the
>charge that you are the one being disrepectful.
Why is that disrespectful in a parent-child relationship? Or, really,
in any cohabiting relationship. No one's saying "My way or the
highway" but "We have a problem here" is different.
>I can hear the band tuning up for the "My House My Rules March" in the
>distance.
It's a catchy tune, and really, why not "my house, my rules"?
>It's hard to be the custodial stepparent of a teen. Your
>rules don't necessarily mean squat. The kid wants to be treated as an
>adult, and you have no desire to live with another adult. But the
>truth is it's really not GF's house any more than it is DD's. Her
See, I disagree with this. GF has no where to go. When DD heads back
to Mom's leaving a desolate wasteland of pizza boxes and socks behind,
it can't wait for her to come back to clean it up. I would think Dad
would be the guy to do that, actually, but that still implies that the
GF has some reasonable expectation to order in her living quarters.
>rules, her told otherwises are an expression of her preferences.
>Stating them does not automatically get her what she wants from the
>rest of the group. And if I were the teen SD, I can't see myself
>being particularly moved by her desire for a squeaky clean house. I'd
>be saying "I understand you want things picked up, I just don't
>understand why you're telling *me.*"
And that would guarantee me blowing my stack.
Zipadee Doodah
> I don't know if the BioDad would appreciate his Girl Friend running to
> his ex wife for back up when they're having trouble.
>
> I just asked my SO what he would feel if he were in the position of the
> OP's ex-husband. He said he would be furious. I know I'd be *furious*
> if my SO went to my ex like this. I would look at it as the SO trying
> to manipulate me in some way.
>
> Cal~
I actually have NO idea what my ex has thought of the times his
GF got in touch with me directly about issues with our daughter.
This time he said nothing to me about it - I have no idea if
he discussed it with GF. The first time she called me I later
asked him if we could keep discussion of the kids' schedules
between him and me and he did tell me that GF had decided to
call me up on her own and he didn't know about it until afterwards.
It isn't like my ex to be furious. My guess is he's ignoring the
issue as much as possible.
-- Z
Zipadee Doodah
> I don't know if the BioDad would appreciate his Girl Friend running to
> his ex wife for back up when they're having trouble.
>
> I just asked my SO what he would feel if he were in the position of the
> OP's ex-husband. He said he would be furious. I know I'd be *furious*
> if my SO went to my ex like this. I would look at it as the SO trying
> to manipulate me in some way.
>
> Cal~
I actually have NO idea what my ex has thought of the times his
GF got in touch with me directly about issues with our daughter.
This time he said nothing to me about it - I have no idea if
he discussed it with GF. The first time she called me I later
asked him if we could keep discussion of the kids' schedules
between him and me and he did tell me that GF had decided to
call me up on her own and he didn't know about it until afterwards.
It isn't like my ex to be furious. My guess is he's ignoring the
issue as much as possible.
-- Z
p.s. I'm having a lot of trouble posting with Google Groups today.
Sorry if this appears more than once.
rebecca
"Vicki Robinson" <vjr...@xcski.com> wrote in message
news:cftie3$ri7$1...@allhats.xcski.com...
>
> I agree, but it still says that my preferences are OK to ignore. And,
> by the way, I'm *not* ignoring her preferences; in her private space,
> she can do as she likes, but in public space, which cannot be allowed
> to collect junk infinitely, that must be picked up sometime, she
> can't.
>
Right, and that's really the operative thing here. _Public_ space.
Everyone's responsibility to keep clean, not step-mom's job. You know, I
don't get why the SM copied mom. Really, I don't get why the stepmom
e-mailed the kid, but to each his/her own, I guess.
There are relatively simple solutions to a lot of this. Can't remember to
clean up after you eat in common rooms? No eating outside the kitchen.
Can't remember to pick up the towels? My towels in this cupboard, yours
over there, welcome to laundry duty. Leave your crap everywhere it doesn't
belong? Guess you can't go to the movies until it's picked up, thanks. The
day I cook dinner _and_ do the dishes is the day I get out the shotgun, in
my house doing one excuses you from the other.
There's a certain amount of shit work that just comes along with having a
kid or a stepkid. When I get tired of doing it for my SS, I happily hand it
right over to his father. As a matter of fact, in younger years, SO didn't
want to spend the last 10 minutes of their time together cleaning up the
toys SS had left _everywhere_, so he never made him pick up. I peacefully
sat on the sofa and watched tv/read a book later while he cleaned.
rebecca
jane
> by the way, I'm *not* ignoring her preferences; in her private space,
> she can do as she likes, but in public space, which cannot be allowed
> to collect junk infinitely, that must be picked up sometime, she
> can't.
Fair enough, but concede that you are ignoring her preferences as far
as public places go.
>
> > They're not disagreeing
> >about who picks them up, but about whether they need to be picked up
> >at all.
>
> But they do, eventually. Sooner or later, you run out of clean socks
> if you just leave the dirty ones everywhere. You *have* to pick them
> up sooner or later. Dirty dishes left on the kitchen counter? No one
> can prepare food in a kitchen once a certain density of dirty dishes
> is reached. All of the bowls and pans are dirty, and there is no
> clean space to work in.
Right, sure. Sooner or later. That's the crux of it, though, isn't
it? Do you pick up your sneakers every morning when you put them on
your feet and walk out the door or when you come home and put them in
your closet? Are you person who dirties every dish in the house and
washes them all at once or a person who washes each dish as you go
along? Do you like your clothes spread out around your room or tucked
away in closets and drawers? Is your floor primarily for walking on
or a flat surface for sorting and storage like your desk? Are your
flat surfaces covered with things or all cleared off?
There are people of both types, and it's a mistake to attach values to
it. You want your own way, or at least enough of your own way for
life in your home to be comfortable and livable for you. If you want
people on board to work as a team, don't alienate them by telling them
that they are wrong for not wanting things the way you do. Keep in
mind that they want a comfortable and livable place too, but that
comfortable and livable for them is a different thing than it is to
you.
> The work has to get done. The question is
> who does it and when does it get done? My answer is that I should not
> be expected to do other people's picking up, and there is no
> defensible rationale behind waiting until the mess is a health or
> navigation hazard.
This is where you shoot yourself in the foot. Working out an
arrangement that works for everyone in the house is hard enough
without polarizing. You just took the first step into the "lazy,
disorganized, self-centered slob vs. obsessive-compulsive,
anal-retentive neat freak" war. You discounted the validity of the
other person's preferences AND you played the "health" card. The
argument may now focus on your defense: why exactly is a glass beside
the sink a health hazard? Why are ten glasses beside the sink a health
hazard? How are glasses beside the sink or in the sink different from
glasses in the dishwasher? The only thing I can think of more likely
to shut the other person off is invoking God in the argument.
If you stick to "we're different people with different preferences and
different needs," there are options. I got rid of my dishes and used
paper plates for years. Many people I know break the house into zones
with different levels of neatness. I don't know what would work for
your family or for OP's ex's. You could make dinner when the kitchen
was clean enough for you to get around. Family members could take
turns with the dishes or you could each take the chore you hate least
or enjoy most. Once you take the position that you are right and the
other person is wrong, the opportunity to resolve the problem is lost.
>
> >If you are going to impose your will regardless of the others'
> >preferences, you have to be able to say, "We're all doing this my way,
> >no matter what you want." Then you have to be able to answer the
> >charge that you are the one being disrepectful.
>
> Why is that disrespectful in a parent-child relationship? Or, really,
> in any cohabiting relationship. No one's saying "My way or the
> highway" but "We have a problem here" is different.
>
> >I can hear the band tuning up for the "My House My Rules March" in the
> >distance.
>
> It's a catchy tune, and really, why not "my house, my rules"?
You've lost me. My house my rules *is* my way or the highway.
>
> >And if I were the teen SD, I can't see myself
> >being particularly moved by her desire for a squeaky clean house. I'd
> >be saying "I understand you want things picked up, I just don't
> >understand why you're telling *me.*"
>
> And that would guarantee me blowing my stack.
No doubt. And that's where we started - with what I would say to the
GF if she posted here. Your stack is blown, and I'm sick of listening
to you bitch. If we have to live together, and it seems that GF and
DD do, there has to be major adjustment of the whole approach to the
problem.
jane
>
> Vicki
jane
Sometimes. My experience is that when you want everyone to
compromise, you start off offering to compromise yourself. When you
start off accusing the other person of doing things wrong, you are
trying to get her to do things your way.
jane
>
> Wendy
Vicki Robinson
>> I agree, but it still says that my preferences are OK to ignore. And,
>> by the way, I'm *not* ignoring her preferences; in her private space,
>> she can do as she likes, but in public space, which cannot be allowed
>> to collect junk infinitely, that must be picked up sometime, she
>> can't.
>
>Fair enough, but concede that you are ignoring her preferences as far
>as public places go.
Yes, because she doesn't see why it can't just collect junk until I
pick it up. Seriously.
>> > They're not disagreeing
>> >about who picks them up, but about whether they need to be picked up
>> >at all.
>>
>> But they do, eventually. Sooner or later, you run out of clean socks
>> if you just leave the dirty ones everywhere. You *have* to pick them
>> up sooner or later.
>
>Right, sure. Sooner or later. That's the crux of it, though, isn't
>it? Do you pick up your sneakers every morning when you put them on
>your feet and walk out the door or when you come home and put them in
>your closet? Are you person who dirties every dish in the house and
>washes them all at once or a person who washes each dish as you go
>along? Do you like your clothes spread out around your room or tucked
>away in closets and drawers? Is your floor primarily for walking on
>or a flat surface for sorting and storage like your desk? Are your
>flat surfaces covered with things or all cleared off?
You're talking about Felix and Oscar. I'm not.
>There are people of both types, and it's a mistake to attach values to
>it. You want your own way, or at least enough of your own way for
>life in your home to be comfortable and livable for you. If you want
>people on board to work as a team, don't alienate them by telling them
>that they are wrong for not wanting things the way you do. Keep in
>mind that they want a comfortable and livable place too, but that
>comfortable and livable for them is a different thing than it is to
>you.
And sometimes they wish you'd get around to cleaning things up,
because golly, it's getting bad in here.
>> The work has to get done. The question is
>> who does it and when does it get done? My answer is that I should not
>> be expected to do other people's picking up, and there is no
>> defensible rationale behind waiting until the mess is a health or
>> navigation hazard.
>
>This is where you shoot yourself in the foot. Working out an
>arrangement that works for everyone in the house is hard enough
>without polarizing. You just took the first step into the "lazy,
>disorganized, self-centered slob vs. obsessive-compulsive,
>anal-retentive neat freak" war. You discounted the validity of the
>other person's preferences AND you played the "health" card. The
>argument may now focus on your defense: why exactly is a glass beside
>the sink a health hazard? Why are ten glasses beside the sink a health
>hazard? How are glasses beside the sink or in the sink different from
>glasses in the dishwasher? The only thing I can think of more likely
>to shut the other person off is invoking God in the argument.
I'm wondering, though, why it's necessary to say "Please put that in
the dishwasher" three times a day for 15 years. When my kids were
little, I lead them through their morning routine. One morning they
headed out to the school bus without shoes. I noticed. "Where are
your shoes?!" I asked. "You didn't tell us to put them on!" they
answered. "Do you *ever* go to school without your shoes?" I asked.
They just looked at me.
They were little. I get that, I see where it came from. But older
kids shouldn't need to be told "Put your fork AND your spoon AND your
knife AND your plate AND your glass in the dishwasher" after every
meal. It's like it's ok to leave them lying around unless you are
specifically told each time to put them away. The default is leave
them, and the fairies will put them away.
I'm not unreasonable. But "Please take your laundry off the couch and
put it away" doesn't have to mean "in the next five minutes" but it
also doesn't mean "anytime you want or even not at all, because as we
know, it's really MY job that I'm asking you to do."
>If you stick to "we're different people with different preferences and
>different needs," there are options. I got rid of my dishes and used
>paper plates for years. Many people I know break the house into zones
>with different levels of neatness. I don't know what would work for
>your family or for OP's ex's. You could make dinner when the kitchen
>was clean enough for you to get around. Family members could take
>turns with the dishes or you could each take the chore you hate least
>or enjoy most. Once you take the position that you are right and the
>other person is wrong, the opportunity to resolve the problem is lost.
What if you take the position that not everything is your job, and the
other person disagrees?
>> Why is that disrespectful in a parent-child relationship? Or, really,
>> in any cohabiting relationship. No one's saying "My way or the
>> highway" but "We have a problem here" is different.
>>
>> >I can hear the band tuning up for the "My House My Rules March" in the
>> >distance.
>>
>> It's a catchy tune, and really, why not "my house, my rules"?
>
>You've lost me. My house my rules *is* my way or the highway.
No it's not. I'd never tell a ten-year-old "Do it my way or find
another place to live". It's not "My way or the highway." But it
*is* my way or no movies on Saturday. What's wrong with that?
>> >And if I were the teen SD, I can't see myself
>> >being particularly moved by her desire for a squeaky clean house. I'd
>> >be saying "I understand you want things picked up, I just don't
>> >understand why you're telling *me.*"
>>
>> And that would guarantee me blowing my stack.
>
>No doubt. And that's where we started - with what I would say to the
>GF if she posted here. Your stack is blown, and I'm sick of listening
>to you bitch. If we have to live together, and it seems that GF and
>DD do, there has to be major adjustment of the whole approach to the
>problem.
Because I'm seeing this as a power challenge, not as a difference in
cleanliness priorities. In my house, it generally means that all the
work around the house is mine. Period. If anyone else lifts a tiny
finger, they're going out of their way. If I do everything, I'm only
doing what's expected. And if the GF is feeling that way, I can see
why she's pissed.
Wendy
Okay, but if someone does nothing except make mess and you've already
lowered your standards somewhat to accommodate their mess, I don't think it
unreasonable to expect them to raise theirs a little to accommodate your
need for order and calm.
The idea of hiring someone to clean isn't an option in all households.
It may be that the participants in this little drama don't even see the
compromises other people have made. The key has to be to talk about it, I
guess, so that views don't become entrenched and everyone's needs get
considered.
Wendy
jane
> work around the house is mine. Period. If anyone else lifts a tiny
> finger, they're going out of their way. If I do everything, I'm only
> doing what's expected.
Vicki, your lips are saying, "no, no" but your actions are saying
"yes, yes." When you mention the laundry, you accept responsibility
for it. Same for the dishes, the garbage, the towels, etc.
Ignore it. Make dinner when the kitchen is clean enough. Move the
laundry aside on the couch. Stop picking up after other people, and
stop telling them when it's time to pick up after themselves. After
the first couple of dozen "why are you telling me?"s, they'll start
complaining to each other. It's time to let them have at it.
jane
>
> Vicki
Amy Lou
In my house I am a little bit Vicki and a little bit Jane. I tend to be the
one to pick up the messes but I have arranged the family's belongings so
that the messes they make are minimal. For eg DH's side of the bedroom is a
disaster, but that's fine because I never need to go there. The kids play
room is easy to keep clean because I have thrown out or stored away most of
the toys.
I like what Vicki wrote about the kids going out without shoes. I could see
that happening in my place. :) I'm going back to work after a long, long
break ( 10 years) soon and I am concerned about how I am going to get
everyone off to school and myself out the door on time. Should be
interesting. :)
Amy
jane
> > > Sometimes everyone needs to compromise a little, though, don't they?
> > >
> > > Sometimes individual's requirements change and levels have to be
> adjusted,
> > > too.
> >
> > Sometimes. My experience is that when you want everyone to
> > compromise, you start off offering to compromise yourself. When you
> > start off accusing the other person of doing things wrong, you are
> > trying to get her to do things your way.
>
> Okay, but if someone does nothing except make mess and you've already
> lowered your standards somewhat to accommodate their mess, I don't think it
> unreasonable to expect them to raise theirs a little to accommodate your
> need for order and calm.
I'm searching for a nonhostile way to say this, because it really
isn't about you. For some reason people who like/want/need things
"organized" often don't seem to recognize how insulting they are being
to those who do not. Your "does nothing but make a mess" and "lowered
your standards" were like chalk on the blackboard to me.
I'm relatively Random. It does not please me to assign specific
places to items in my life. I like/want/need to mix things up quite a
bit. It creeps me out to see rooms looking the same all the time. I
do like things in my kitchen assigned a place because when I'm cooking
I don't want to take the time to find things. Even there, I cannot
stand those tableware organizers; I want my utensils to mingle and get
to know one another. And I cannot watch some of my dearest friends
load a dishwasher, because the attention they pay to the placement of
dirty dishes (which are always clean before they go in) just horrifies
me.
I do not need things on the floor. I know people who do, but I don't.
I do need things on any other flat surface. Not two candles sticks in
the middle of the dining room table, but my keys, purse, recent mail,
a dog toy, and an empty CD case. Bare flat surfaces unnerve me; I am
compelled to disrupt that expanse. Couches don't need to contain a
mountain of laundry for me, as long as there are a half dozen
unmatched pillows strewn randomly around. It bothers me to have my
bed made.
What bothers me most about this is that when I look around, I see
people fairly evenly split on the Ordered/Random scale, but in this
area, people I know and like and respect think nothing of blantantly
putting down people who are different from themselves.
jane
WhansaMi
>preferences, you have to be able to say, "We're all doing this my way,
>no matter what you want." Then you have to be able to answer the
>charge that you are the one being disrepectful.
>
>rules don't necessarily mean squat. The kid wants to be treated as an
>adult, and you have no desire to live with another adult. But the
>truth is it's really not GF's house any more than it is DD's.
Sure it is. She is paying the mortgage. Or rent. If the house gets damaged,
she/they will pay the price of that, either to a landlord, or through the
lowered property value.
It *is* my house, because I bought it! My daughter cannot (and will not)
arrange to paint it lipstick red next week. My son needs permission to put
holes in the walls to put up "spinning things". Ultimately, it IS my house,
and it always amazes me when folks try to pretend it isn't, for the sake of
"democracy". I may choose to let my kids do a lot of things (like paint their
rooms purple), but it is ultimately my choice, as the adult. The kids don't
have carte blanche, because, ultimately, it is my house.
Sheila
jane
>>I can hear the band tuning up for the "My House My Rules March" in the
>>distance. It's hard to be the custodial stepparent of a teen. Your
>>rules don't necessarily mean squat. The kid wants to be treated as an
>>adult, and you have no desire to live with another adult. But the
>>truth is it's really not GF's house any more than it is DD's.
>
>Sure it is. She is paying the mortgage. Or rent. If the house gets
>damaged,
>she/they will pay the price of that, either to a landlord, or through the
>lowered property value.
You made that up you know.
Still, it doesn't matter who pays, and you can be liable for lots of things you
have no choice in. Paying for things and being liable for things does not give
you the power to change the actions of your SKs.
>
>It *is* my house, because I bought it! My daughter cannot (and will not)
>arrange to paint it lipstick red next week. My son needs permission to put
>holes in the walls to put up "spinning things".
Sheila, we're not talking about you and your kids. Well, you are. I was
talking about stepparents.
GF is opting into a package: her boyfriend, his kids, his rules for his kids,
and his parenting technique. She can want any level of neatness. What she'll
get is what she, he, and the kids are willing to maintain.
These two women are in essentially the same situation. If DD wants clutter
everywhere, she really can't stop GF from straightening things right and left
all around her. If GF wants things neat as a pin, she really can't stop DD
from distributing her belongings around the house. Both are limited by what
Zip's ex will tolerate, of course, but that appears to be quite a bit on both
sides.
I can see that GF could be frustrated. I was frustrated myself. But there's
no point driving yourself crazy trying to change what you can't change or
pretending things aren't what they are. Go ahead and clean what you want to
clean. That's a sensible place to put your effort. Waging war with your
cohabitants is not.
jane
WhansaMi
>>>I can hear the band tuning up for the "My House My Rules March" in the
>>>distance. It's hard to be the custodial stepparent of a teen. Your
>>>rules don't necessarily mean squat. The kid wants to be treated as an
>>>adult, and you have no desire to live with another adult. But the
>>>truth is it's really not GF's house any more than it is DD's.
>>
>>Sure it is. She is paying the mortgage. Or rent. If the house gets
>>damaged,
>>she/they will pay the price of that, either to a landlord, or through the
>>lowered property value.
>
>You made that up you know.
>
>Still, it doesn't matter who pays, and you can be liable for lots of things
>you
>have no choice in. Paying for things and being liable for things does not
>give
>you the power to change the actions of your SKs.
I truly have no idea what you are saying here.
Let's say I own a diamond ring. Of course, I can't stop Thief X from coming
and stealing my diamond ring, but that doesn't make it any less my ring, or
that I have a right not to have it stolen.
I suppose it could be the case that the OP's ex has told the GF, "You are just
a boarder here. This is *my* house. I'll pay the bills, and I retain all
rights to the house and what goes on inside." In that case, yes, you are
right. But, I'd say it is more likely that they see it as their house, their
home. And, yes, by the mere virtue of being the one who pays for the house, and
being the responsible adult, the ex and the GF do get to set the rule, at least
IMO.
>>
>>It *is* my house, because I bought it! My daughter cannot (and will not)
>>arrange to paint it lipstick red next week. My son needs permission to put
>>holes in the walls to put up "spinning things".
>
>Sheila, we're not talking about you and your kids. Well, you are. I was
>talking about stepparents.
My son can't put up spinning things over my DH's objections, either.
>
>GF is opting into a package: her boyfriend, his kids, his rules for his kids,
>and his parenting technique. She can want any level of neatness. What
>she'll
>get is what she, he, and the kids are willing to maintain.
Yes, that's what *all* of us get. But, I'd say that she has every right to
keep on working toward it being her way, and the ex's way... not the kids' way.
And, this coming from a slob.
>
>These two women are in essentially the same situation. If DD wants clutter
>everywhere, she really can't stop GF from straightening things right and left
>all around her. If GF wants things neat as a pin, she really can't stop DD
>from distributing her belongings around the house. Both are limited by what
>Zip's ex will tolerate, of course, but that appears to be quite a bit on both
>sides.
>
>I can see that GF could be frustrated. I was frustrated myself. But there's
>no point driving yourself crazy trying to change what you can't change or
>pretending things aren't what they are. Go ahead and clean what you want to
>clean. That's a sensible place to put your effort. Waging war with your
>cohabitants is not.
I'd say it depends on how important it is to you. I find it hard to imagine it
ever being an area that I'd fight over, but then I'm a slob. However, I *can*
imagine things I'd be willing to wage war over.
Sheila
jane
> >>>
> >>>I can hear the band tuning up for the "My House My Rules March" in the
> >>>distance. It's hard to be the custodial stepparent of a teen. Your
> >>>rules don't necessarily mean squat. The kid wants to be treated as an
> >>>adult, and you have no desire to live with another adult. But the
> >>>truth is it's really not GF's house any more than it is DD's.
> >>
> >>Sure it is. She is paying the mortgage. Or rent. If the house gets
> >>damaged,
> >>she/they will pay the price of that, either to a landlord, or through the
> >>lowered property value.
> >
> >You made that up you know.
> >
> >Still, it doesn't matter who pays, and you can be liable for lots of things
> >you
> >have no choice in. Paying for things and being liable for things does not
> >give
> >you the power to change the actions of your SKs.
>
> I truly have no idea what you are saying here.
Yeah, you do. Look at this:
>
> I suppose it could be the case that the OP's ex has told the GF, "You are just
> a boarder here. This is *my* house. I'll pay the bills, and I retain all
> rights to the house and what goes on inside." In that case, yes, you are
> right. But, I'd say it is more likely that they see it as their house, their
> home.
That's pretty close to what I am saying. Regardless of who is paying
what bill and what their legal rights are, they see it as *their home*
- Ex's, GF's, DD's, and DS's. This isn't an arrangement like Cal's ex
with his kids. Zip's kids aren't visiting their father's GF's house.
It's their home, even if they have another home with Zip.
> And, yes, by the mere virtue of being the one who pays for the house, and
> being the responsible adult, the ex and the GF do get to set the rule, at least
> IMO.
This has some significance to you that *I* don't understand. I don't
see how who makes the rules or what those rules are affects the
situation. One of the bases of the conflict is that Ex and GF don't
agree. Even if they did, there would still be issues, but here - as
in many of our families - GF is out there twisting in the wind because
whatever whoever decides will happen, what actually happens bugs the
shit out of her but not her mate.
>
> >
> >GF is opting into a package: her boyfriend, his kids, his rules for his kids,
> >and his parenting technique. She can want any level of neatness. What
> >she'll
> >get is what she, he, and the kids are willing to maintain.
>
> Yes, that's what *all* of us get. But, I'd say that she has every right to
> keep on working toward it being her way, and the ex's way... not the kids' way.
Rights are just about as relevant as Rules here. They're distractions
GF should avoid approaching the issue. Her rights and 5¢ will get her
a nickel cigar. They certainly won't get her a tidy house.
> > Go ahead and clean what you want to
> >clean. That's a sensible place to put your effort. Waging war with your
> >cohabitants is not.
>
> I'd say it depends on how important it is to you. I find it hard to imagine it
> ever being an area that I'd fight over, but then I'm a slob. However, I *can*
> imagine things I'd be willing to wage war over.
I can't understand why you would knowingly choose to make your home a
war zone.
jane
>
> Sheila
Zipadee Doodah
> >>
> >>I can hear the band tuning up for the "My House My Rules March" in the
> >>distance. It's hard to be the custodial stepparent of a teen. Your
> >>rules don't necessarily mean squat. The kid wants to be treated as an
> >>adult, and you have no desire to live with another adult. But the
> >>truth is it's really not GF's house any more than it is DD's.
> >
> >Sure it is. She is paying the mortgage. Or rent. If the house gets
> >damaged, she/they will pay the price of that, either to a landlord,
> > or through thelowered property value.
>
FWIW, the house belongs to my ex. He makes way more money than GF
and I think she contributes some amount and he pays the bills.
> GF is opting into a package: her boyfriend, his kids, his rules for his kids,
> and his parenting technique. She can want any level of neatness. What she'll
> get is what she, he, and the kids are willing to maintain.
I think she feels that it isn't just his rules but that she gets to
make rules too because she lives there and she's an adult. She's a
teacher so she's more used to being in charge with kids.
> These two women are in essentially the same situation. If DD wants clutter
> everywhere, she really can't stop GF from straightening things right and left
> all around her. If GF wants things neat as a pin, she really can't stop DD
> from distributing her belongings around the house. Both are limited by what
> Zip's ex will tolerate, of course, but that appears to be quite a bit on both
> sides.
He'll tolerate a lot to avoid conflict. As far as I know, he never had
any kind of conversation with the kids when GF moved in about what her
role would be. I believe he just told them she was moving in and she
moved in while the kids were away at summer camp 4 years ago. I don't
mean to imply she snuck in or anything - they'd been dating for about
a year at that point and the kids certainly knew her.
> I can see that GF could be frustrated. I was frustrated myself. But there's
> no point driving yourself crazy trying to change what you can't change or
> pretending things aren't what they are. Go ahead and clean what you want to
> clean. That's a sensible place to put your effort. Waging war with your
> cohabitants is not.
Well I haven't heard any more on the issue lately from ex or GF.
And GF isn't the one reading all the viewpoints here. I'm reluctant
to suggest this group to her because then I wouldn't be able to
post anymore (so I'm being selfish).
I do sometimes feel now that if I'm picking up DD from ex's house
when ex and GF are at work (as has happened a few times lately due
to school not starting yet for the kids), I feel like I should say
something to DD asking whether it's okay to leave her shoes out
or asking whether she's cleaned up after herself. Yet I don't want
to have to do that. But I know that ex and GF will come home,
possibly to stuff that DD hasn't put away, and they won't be able
to tell DD to clean it up because she isn't there.
-- Z
The Watsons
> I do sometimes feel now that if I'm picking up DD from ex's house
> when ex and GF are at work (as has happened a few times lately due
> to school not starting yet for the kids), I feel like I should say
> something to DD asking whether it's okay to leave her shoes out
> or asking whether she's cleaned up after herself. Yet I don't want
> to have to do that. But I know that ex and GF will come home,
> possibly to stuff that DD hasn't put away, and they won't be able
> to tell DD to clean it up because she isn't there.
I'd squick if someone did that to me, tho' I'm not entirely sure why.
Jess
rebecca
> > >>
> > >>I can hear the band tuning up for the "My House My Rules March" in the
> > >>distance. It's hard to be the custodial stepparent of a teen. Your
> > >>rules don't necessarily mean squat. The kid wants to be treated as an
> > >>adult, and you have no desire to live with another adult. But the
> > >>truth is it's really not GF's house any more than it is DD's.
> > >
> > >Sure it is. She is paying the mortgage. Or rent. If the house gets
> > >damaged, she/they will pay the price of that, either to a landlord,
> > > or through thelowered property value.
> >
>
> FWIW, the house belongs to my ex. He makes way more money than GF
> and I think she contributes some amount and he pays the bills.
Oh, wow, how did I miss this? Um, GF is an adult member of the household,
theoretically at least, the ex has chosen her for his life partner.
Irrespective of who actually owns the house, and who may or may not be
paying the bills, the two adults are a unit. She is not a child, and that
automatically entitles her to be more directive in how the home is kept.
To make her a peer with the daughter simply on a financial basis is fairly
offensive.
>
> I do sometimes feel now that if I'm picking up DD from ex's house
> when ex and GF are at work (as has happened a few times lately due
> to school not starting yet for the kids), I feel like I should say
> something to DD asking whether it's okay to leave her shoes out
> or asking whether she's cleaned up after herself. Yet I don't want
> to have to do that. But I know that ex and GF will come home,
> possibly to stuff that DD hasn't put away, and they won't be able
> to tell DD to clean it up because she isn't there.
Um, hey. It's their problem, it's their house. Your daughter needs to cope
with the differences between the homes, I wouldn't even bother to get
involved. "Honey, you need to work this out with your dad and SM."
rebecca
Vicki Robinson
>Rights are just about as relevant as Rules here. They're distractions
>GF should avoid approaching the issue. Her rights and 5¢ will get her
>a nickel cigar. They certainly won't get her a tidy house.
I see what you're saying, and you're right. You certainly have the
right to decide what's going to happen in your own home, but when
someone says "No, I don't think so" and no one will back you up or
recognize your authority, it doesn't matter. You may have the right
to make a citizen's arrest, too, if you catch me dropping a gum
wrapper on the ground. That doesn't mean I won't laugh in your face
amd walk away if you try.
>> I'd say it depends on how important it is to you. I find it hard to
>imagine it
>> ever being an area that I'd fight over, but then I'm a slob. However, I *can*
>> imagine things I'd be willing to wage war over.
>
>I can't understand why you would knowingly choose to make your home a
>war zone.
I would, for example, to keep abusive junkies out of my living room.
But not over cleaning.
However, the price of just saying "OK, SD gets what she wants and I'll
eat it for sake of peace" is simmering resentment and an eventual
ulcer. I know something about this, trust me.
Tracey
jane wrote:
> I can't understand why you would knowingly choose to make your home a
> war zone.
I think we're all willing to make our home into a war zone over one
issue or another. Or at least we've all got at least one issue that
we feel strongly enough about that we're not going to let go of it
just to keep the peace.
Tracey
WhansaMi
are
>just
>> a boarder here. This is *my* house. I'll pay the bills, and I retain all
>> rights to the house and what goes on inside." In that case, yes, you are
>> right. But, I'd say it is more likely that they see it as their house,
>their
>> home.
>
>what bill and what their legal rights are, they see it as *their home*
>- Ex's, GF's, DD's, and DS's. This isn't an arrangement like Cal's ex
>with his kids. Zip's kids aren't visiting their father's GF's house.
>It's their home, even if they have another home with Zip.
You seem to think that just because it is the kids' home, that they get a say
in how it is run. IMO, that isn't the way it is. It may be their *home*, but
it is the ex and his GF's *house*.
>
>> And, yes, by the mere virtue of being the one who pays for the house, and
>> being the responsible adult, the ex and the GF do get to set the rule, at
>least
>> IMO.
>
>This has some significance to you that *I* don't understand. I don't
>see how who makes the rules or what those rules are affects the
>situation. One of the bases of the conflict is that Ex and GF don't
>agree. Even if they did, there would still be issues, but here - as
>in many of our families - GF is out there twisting in the wind because
>whatever whoever decides will happen, what actually happens bugs the
>shit out of her but not her mate.
Oh, I agree with you that it is a problem that the ex isn't involved. But, I'd
disagree with you that, if the adults were on the same page, that there could
be expectations that could be acted upon --- and since I think the adults get
to make the rules, the expectations would run in favor of the adults, not the
kids.
>
>>
>> >
>> >GF is opting into a package: her boyfriend, his kids, his rules for his
>kids,
>> >and his parenting technique. She can want any level of neatness. What
>> >she'll
>> >get is what she, he, and the kids are willing to maintain.
>>
>> Yes, that's what *all* of us get. But, I'd say that she has every right to
>> keep on working toward it being her way, and the ex's way... not the kids'
>way.
>
>Rights are just about as relevant as Rules here. They're distractions
>GF should avoid approaching the issue. Her rights and 5¢ will get her
>a nickel cigar. They certainly won't get her a tidy house.
I bet they would if SDs on-the-floor belongings started finding their way to
the trash bin (with fair warning, of course).
>
>> > Go ahead and clean what you want to
>> >clean. That's a sensible place to put your effort. Waging war with your
>> >cohabitants is not.
>>
>> I'd say it depends on how important it is to you. I find it hard to
>imagine it
>> ever being an area that I'd fight over, but then I'm a slob. However, I
>*can*
>> imagine things I'd be willing to wage war over.
>
>I can't understand why you would knowingly choose to make your home a
>war zone.
Because different things are important to different people. While it doesn't
affect me this way, for some people, a disorderly house has a significant
impact on how they can function -- emotionally and intellectually. I don't see
anything wrong with such an adult having an expectation for orderliness in
their home, and doing what was necessary in order to achieve that.
Sheila
>
>jane
>>
>> Sheila
>
>
>
>
>
>
WhansaMi
>news:693c375c.04082...@posting.google.com...
>> janel...@aol.com (jane) wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>I can hear the band tuning up for the "My House My Rules March" in the
>> > >>distance. It's hard to be the custodial stepparent of a teen. Your
>> > >>rules don't necessarily mean squat. The kid wants to be treated as an
>> > >>adult, and you have no desire to live with another adult. But the
>> > >>truth is it's really not GF's house any more than it is DD's.
>> > >
>> > >Sure it is. She is paying the mortgage. Or rent. If the house gets
>> > >damaged, she/they will pay the price of that, either to a landlord,
>> > > or through thelowered property value.
>> >
>>
>> FWIW, the house belongs to my ex. He makes way more money than GF
>> and I think she contributes some amount and he pays the bills.
>
>Oh, wow, how did I miss this? Um, GF is an adult member of the household,
>theoretically at least, the ex has chosen her for his life partner.
>Irrespective of who actually owns the house, and who may or may not be
>paying the bills, the two adults are a unit. She is not a child, and that
>automatically entitles her to be more directive in how the home is kept.
>To make her a peer with the daughter simply on a financial basis is fairly
>offensive.
Rebecca, I agree, and I am guilty of doing that myself. The interesting thing
is, I would jump all over someone who came in and said that a SAHM is less
empowered as an adult, just because she stayed home.
In my defense, I guess I was thinking of the adults as a unit --- that they,
together, form the unit that pays the bills, makes the rules, etc, even if only
one of them is working. But, I certainly was not clear about what I was
thinking and saying.
Sheila
jane
> >
> >I can't understand why you would knowingly choose to make your home a
> >war zone.
>
> I would, for example, to keep abusive junkies out of my living room.
I used to think that way, once in precisely that situation. I look
back now, and I can't imagine what I was thinking of. Why didn't the
fact that the only way I could think of to keep junkies out my living
room was to turn my house into a war zone clue me in that I should
move out? What was I thinking of?
> But not over cleaning.
>
> However, the price of just saying "OK, SD gets what she wants and I'll
> eat it for sake of peace" is simmering resentment and an eventual
> ulcer. I know something about this, trust me.
Well, I know quite a bit myself, which is why I say to focus on
getting what you want. One can - and I'm guessing GF here has -
become confused and start thinking that SD getting what she wants is
what leaves you with that simmering resentment. SD getting what she
wants is not the problem or even a problem. SD getting what she wants
is A Good Thing.
GF getting what she wants would be a good thing, too. She should
forget about SD and go for that.
jane
>
> Vicki
jane
> You seem to think that just because it is the kids' home, that they get a say
> in how it is run. IMO, that isn't the way it is. It may be their *home*, but
> it is the ex and his GF's *house*.
Yeah, no. I think we're talking in different dimensions. Put all the
"get a say," rights, rules, and your opinions about how things should
be aside. I'm not talking about any of that. I'm talking about the
way things actually are.
>
> >Rights are just about as relevant as Rules here. They're distractions
> >GF should avoid approaching the issue. Her rights and 5¢ will get her
> >a nickel cigar. They certainly won't get her a tidy house.
>
> I bet they would if SDs on-the-floor belongings started finding their way to
> the trash bin (with fair warning, of course).
Is this a joke? I don't want to respond seriously if you're being
humorous, but I can't tell.
> Sheila
>
> >
> >jane
Cornhuskeress
>
> Is this a joke? I don't want to respond seriously if you're being
> humorous, but I can't tell.
>
>> Sheila
>>
I would have no problem tossing this kid's stuff right in the trash if she
left it laying around.
>>>
>>> jane
--
**Geri**
"Pigs Can Fly!"
GO HUSKERS!
Vicki Robinson
>I used to think that way, once in precisely that situation. I look
>back now, and I can't imagine what I was thinking of. Why didn't the
>fact that the only way I could think of to keep junkies out my living
>room was to turn my house into a war zone clue me in that I should
>move out? What was I thinking of?
Maybe you were thinking that you didn't want to be driven out of your
home?
>> However, the price of just saying "OK, SD gets what she wants and I'll
>> eat it for sake of peace" is simmering resentment and an eventual
>> ulcer. I know something about this, trust me.
>
>Well, I know quite a bit myself, which is why I say to focus on
>getting what you want. One can - and I'm guessing GF here has -
>become confused and start thinking that SD getting what she wants is
>what leaves you with that simmering resentment. SD getting what she
>wants is not the problem or even a problem. SD getting what she wants
>is A Good Thing.
>
>GF getting what she wants would be a good thing, too. She should
>forget about SD and go for that.
It depends on what GF really wants. If she wants a clean house,
period, no conditions, well then yes, she can pick up after her SD and
the problem is solved. But if (as is the case in my house and
probably a lot of other houses here) what she *really* wants is some
indication that she isn't *just* an unpaid cleaning lady and cook to
the family, if what she wants is some confirmation that her wants and
needs count too, if what she wants is to not just be the invisible
maid, then SD getting what she wants is *not* a good thing. SD wants
the freedom to just do what she wants and not think about anyone else.
GF doesn't want to be ignored, her wants simply dismissed by others.
Sometimes what you want is to be visible. Sometimes what you want is
to have your way *while others don't get theirs*. Sometimes what you
want is for someone else to do something nice for you, like you do for
them.
Kathy Cole
wrote:
> I do sometimes feel now that if I'm picking up DD from ex's house
> when ex and GF are at work (as has happened a few times lately due
> to school not starting yet for the kids), I feel like I should say
> something to DD asking whether it's okay to leave her shoes out
> or asking whether she's cleaned up after herself. Yet I don't want
> to have to do that. But I know that ex and GF will come home,
> possibly to stuff that DD hasn't put away, and they won't be able
> to tell DD to clean it up because she isn't there.
I don't think a 'Did you get your stuff put away?' to her before you
leave is out of line.
Kathy Cole
> > I bet they would if SDs on-the-floor belongings started finding their way to
> > the trash bin (with fair warning, of course).
>
> Is this a joke? I don't want to respond seriously if you're being
> humorous, but I can't tell.
No, I'm sure it's not a joke. I wouldn't throw things out, but I could
see myself making them disappear if I were that frustrated.
jane
post. I completely disagree with every sentence from here
> theoretically at least, the ex has chosen her for his life partner.
> Irrespective of who actually owns the house, and who may or may not be
> paying the bills, the two adults are a unit. She is not a child, and that
> automatically entitles her to be more directive in how the home is kept.
> To make her a peer with the daughter simply on a financial basis is fairly
> offensive.
>
... to here. Although, to be fair, I agree with part of one sentence;
that GF is not a child.
And then I agree with your conclusion:
> Um, hey. It's their problem, it's their house. Your daughter needs to cope
> with the differences between the homes,
jane
>
> rebecca
Zipadee Doodah
I didn't understand whose viewpoint you were taking there. Did you
mean you wouldn't like it if you were DD and your mom told you to
clean up when picking you up from your dad's? Or did you mean you
wouldn't like it if you were GF and came home to DD's clutter but
no DD? Or would you not like being in my position (BM), wondering
if you should say something to DD?
-- Z
rebecca
>
> I didn't understand whose viewpoint you were taking there. Did you
> mean you wouldn't like it if you were DD and your mom told you to
> clean up when picking you up from your dad's? Or did you mean you
> wouldn't like it if you were GF and came home to DD's clutter but
> no DD? Or would you not like being in my position (BM), wondering
> if you should say something to DD?
>
Z-
I guess I don't understand why you're so overwrought about this. Have you
made an effort to teach your daughter about hygiene? About being
considerate to other people? About keeping her things tidy? That's your
job, so to speak. If you have done that, if she's failing to do all that at
her father's, it's up to him to deal with it.
You literally can't control this. And getting involved is just going to
piss everyone off. Your daughter knows you can't control it, the girlfriend
already told you she doesn't want your help, and your ex is probably just as
glad if anyone else deals with the problem other than him.
So what, exactly, is still bothering you about this?
Rebecca
WhansaMi
>
>I used to think that way, once in precisely that situation. I look
>back now, and I can't imagine what I was thinking of. Why didn't the
>fact that the only way I could think of to keep junkies out my living
>room was to turn my house into a war zone clue me in that I should
>move out? What was I thinking of?
I wouldn't be willing to lose my home because of wanting to avoid conflict with
people who are doing bad stuff (I'm talking about junkies here, not
scatterers). That would not be a viable solution for me.
Sheila
WhansaMi
>> You seem to think that just because it is the kids' home, that they get a
>say
>> in how it is run. IMO, that isn't the way it is. It may be their *home*,
>but
>> it is the ex and his GF's *house*.
>
>Yeah, no. I think we're talking in different dimensions. Put all the
>"get a say," rights, rules, and your opinions about how things should
>be aside. I'm not talking about any of that. I'm talking about the
>way things actually are.
So am I. You don't think those things are important. I do. That's okay, but
just because *you* don't think those things are relevant, and they wouldn't be
relevant in the way you approach it, it doesn't mean they aren't relevant to
me, if I were to encounter this. It is because of these things that certain
options would not be viable for me, so, yes, they do figure into the equation.
>>
>> >Rights are just about as relevant as Rules here. They're distractions
>> >GF should avoid approaching the issue. Her rights and 5¢ will get her
>> >a nickel cigar. They certainly won't get her a tidy house.
>>
>> I bet they would if SDs on-the-floor belongings started finding their way
>to
>> the trash bin (with fair warning, of course).
>
>Is this a joke? I don't want to respond seriously if you're being
>humorous, but I can't tell.
Not really a joke. As I said, I can't see myself getting that upset about this
particular issue, but if I were the type of person that I mentioned before,
where chaos in their surroundings caused them significant distress, I could see
them putting the belongings in a place where they couldn't be gotten to, or
throwing them away, again, after ample warning.
Sheila
>
>> Sheila
>>
>> >
>> >jane
>
>
>
>
>
>
Lori
"Cornhuskeress" <cahusk...@sbcglobalGOBIGRED.net> wrote in message
news:OPfXc.11814$ze7....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com...
> jane wrote:
> >
> > Is this a joke? I don't want to respond seriously if you're being
> > humorous, but I can't tell.
> >
> >> Sheila
> >>
> I can't speak for Sheila, but I thought the same thing and I am not
joking.
> I would have no problem tossing this kid's stuff right in the trash if she
> left it laying around.
>
> **Geri**
>
> "Pigs Can Fly!"
> GO HUSKERS!
>
Same here. We've certainly done it when it comes to the kids' toys, on more
than one occasion. They know that they are not supposed to take out so much
stuff at once that it is all over the place and never being put away. As
far as I'm concerned, if they cannot, or are not willing, to take proper
care of things, they obviously have too many, and if it takes throwing out
stuff once a month until they each have just one or two toys then they
clearly are unable to take care of more than one or two.
Lori
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 8/25/04
Zipadee Doodah
> Z-
>
> I guess I don't understand why you're so overwrought about this. Have you
> made an effort to teach your daughter about hygiene? About being
> considerate to other people? About keeping her things tidy? That's your
> job, so to speak. If you have done that, if she's failing to do all that at
> her father's, it's up to him to deal with it.
>
> You literally can't control this. And getting involved is just going to
> piss everyone off. Your daughter knows you can't control it, the girlfriend
> already told you she doesn't want your help, and your ex is probably just as
> glad if anyone else deals with the problem other than him.
>
> So what, exactly, is still bothering you about this?
>
> Rebecca
You may recall that the GF originally pulled me into this by emailing
my daughter about stuff DD had left around (and GF listed them) and
she cc'ed me.
Yes, my daughter knows basic hygiene - that's not the problem. She's
very clean. The list of things she had left around included shoes
in the hallway, a book on the couch, a plate she had used for lunch
left on the counter instead of in the dishwasher, etc. If she does this
at my house I call her on it (well, I don't mind a book on
the couch). Theirs is not a clutter-free home either - just that there
seem to be places where some clutter is okay and some where it isn't.
Actually, since I really didn't want to get pulled into this in the
first place, I shall just pull myself back out. As school starts next
week, there won't be many more occasions where I'll have to pick up
my daughter at her dad's house. As long as GF doesn't call or email
me and pull me into their next blow-up ...
-- Z
rebecca
> me and pull me into their next blow-up ...
Yep, that's your problem, it's not about your daughter at all. I confess,
it wouldn't occur to me to do this, and if I did, I would pretty much expect
BM to tell me to leave her out of it.
rebecca
jane
Vicki, I just cannot respond to this in one post. I have to
distinguish among Zip, you, me and People In General. I have to
answer in chunks.
> SD wants
> the freedom to just do what she wants and not think about anyone else.
This is making me nuts. Is it just me? Do we commonly randomly make
shit up in threads like this?
Sheila's making up finances. Rebecca is inventing GF and Ex's
relationship. And now you come up with this as SD's desire and
motivation. Zip hasn't said *any* of these things. How did you come
up with this from SD isn't the neatest person in the world and she
doesn't particularly care for GF?
jane
>
> Vicki
jane
vjr...@xcski.com (Vicki Robinson) wrote in message news:<cgkl6k$5bp$1...@allhats.xcski.com>...
> In a previous article, jan...@yahoo.com (jane) said:
>
> >I used to think that way, once in precisely that situation. I look
> >back now, and I can't imagine what I was thinking of. Why didn't the
> >fact that the only way I could think of to keep junkies out my living
> >room was to turn my house into a war zone clue me in that I should
> >move out? What was I thinking of?
>
> Maybe you were thinking that you didn't want to be driven out of your
> home?
Sure, maybe, but that makes no sense. My home is where I am. If
anything I was being driven out of a house, a house that I obviously
shouldn't have been trying to stay in anyway.
jane
>
> Vicki
Vicki Robinson
>> SD wants
>> the freedom to just do what she wants and not think about anyone else.
>
>And now you come up with this as SD's desire and
>motivation.
Because what she's being asked to do has no value to her, and she
doesn't want to do it. So she doesn't. How does this *not* translate
into "wanting to do what she wants" and "not having to think about
anyone else"?
I assume she leaves things around because she wants to, not because
some malign force is making her. "I want to pick up my shoes! Let me
put them away, please!" "NO! You MUST LEAVE THEM ON THE FLOOR IN
FRONT OF THE COUCH!!! BWAAAAAhahahahahahahahaha!!" If she *doesn't*
want to leave things around, I assume that she wouldn't.
The same with thinking about other people. "My SM wants me to put
this plate in the dishwasher. I know that because she bugs me about
it all the time. But what she wants really isn't relevant to me, to
think about it just makes my life harder, so I'm going to leave it
here on the counter anyway." How else is this to be understood?
I'm not marking these as deep character flaws that mean she's a
horrible person; it sounds pretty standard-issue teen to me. But it
*is* self-centered behavior, rather than other-centered.
jane
vjr...@xcski.com (Vicki Robinson) wrote in message news:<cgkl6k$5bp$1...@allhats.xcski.com>...
> In a previous article, jan...@yahoo.com (jane) said:
>
> >Well, I know quite a bit myself, which is why I say to focus on
> >getting what you want. One can - and I'm guessing GF here has -
> >become confused and start thinking that SD getting what she wants is
> >what leaves you with that simmering resentment. SD getting what she
> >wants is not the problem or even a problem. SD getting what she wants
> >is A Good Thing.
> >
> >GF getting what she wants would be a good thing, too. She should
> >forget about SD and go for that.
>
> It depends on what GF really wants. If she wants a clean house,
> period, no conditions, well then yes, she can pick up after her SD and
> the problem is solved. But if (as is the case in my house and
> probably a lot of other houses here) what she *really* wants is some
> indication that she isn't *just* an unpaid cleaning lady and cook to
> the family, if what she wants is some confirmation that her wants and
> needs count too, if what she wants is to not just be the invisible
> maid,
Do you remember that Lenny Bruce "thank you, masked man" skit?
Never mind. You know those "don't bother to thank me" people?
They're always doing stuff you didn't ask them to do or particularly
want them to do and then telling you not to thank them to make sure
you know that you owe them? I stay away from those people because for
me there is no positive side to associating with them.
You're sort of reminding me of them here, because I know I'm not
supposed to say, "Of course you don't feel that they appreciate what
you do: They don't. You *are* just an unpaid cook and cleaning lady
(although no one understands why you choose to be), and your feelings
about housework really *don't* count."
See, that's why I can't deal with the DBTTM people. If I do say that,
I realize that it isn't entirely what I really mean. Still, it has to
be said if anything is going to be, because I have that problem with
being backed into a position I don't believe in. It is So Incredibly
Annoying to realize that to avoid being backed in I have instead dived
head first into position I don't believe in. After almost half a
century the best solution I have come up with is to feign deafness and
walk away. If I were a person in your home and I did that, I think
that would drive you nuts too.
Of course you aren't "just" an unpaid cleaning lady. You are a
friend, lover, raconteur, confidante, et a million other wonderful
things that people in your home actually do appreciate you for. And
your feelings matter as much as anyone else's.
I can accept that you have feelings of dissatisfaction, and I hope you
work them through. If you want my advice, just ask. I'm willing to
discuss these feelings just like I'll discuss your feelings about
work, aging, friends, menopause, global socioeconomic change, and your
quest for the meaning of life. Start your sentences with "I feel..."
and we'll be fine. Like most people I have met, however, I am not so
eager to accommodate another person's desire for a discussion of *my*
feelings, behavior, attitude, and failings. And the conversation about
you is not going to stray off into what I can do to solve your problem
or how I can fix your feelings of whatever.
Which brings me to Reponse 3B
> then SD getting what she wants is *not* a good thing.
<snip>
>
> Sometimes what you want is
> to have your way *while others don't get theirs*.
As much as your feelings matter, these are not feelings that you can
realistically expect others to have sympathy for. From the person
whom you do not want to get what she wants, IMVE you can very, very
rarely expect any sympathy at all. Shaolin monks, maybe. For the
rest of us, you had better back off and work these feeling through
without engaging us. Pedicure, couple of visits to a shrink, night
out with the girls, whatever it takes. But if you steam ahead in this
frame of mind, you will very likely alienate those around you and
diminish your chance of resolving your problem.
jane
> Vicki
jane
> >>
> >> You seem to think that just because it is the kids' home, that they get a
> say
> >> in how it is run. IMO, that isn't the way it is. It may be their *home*,
> but
> >> it is the ex and his GF's *house*.
> >
> >Yeah, no. I think we're talking in different dimensions. Put all the
> >"get a say," rights, rules, and your opinions about how things should
> >be aside. I'm not talking about any of that. I'm talking about the
> >way things actually are.
>
> So am I. You don't think those things are important. I do.
I didn't say that. I didn't mean that.
> That's okay, but
> just because *you* don't think those things are relevant, and they wouldn't be
> relevant in the way you approach it, it doesn't mean they aren't relevant to
> me, if I were to encounter this. It is because of these things that certain
> options would not be viable for me, so, yes, they do figure into the equation.
>
This is what I mean about different dimensions. It's not that these
issues have no meaning. They just have no determining effect on how
things play out. What it all comes down to is what the players
involved decide to do. You are one of them; the options you choose do
affect the outcome - regardless of what rights or rules you have.
> >>
> >> >Rights are just about as relevant as Rules here. They're distractions
> >> >GF should avoid approaching the issue. Her rights and 5¢ will get her
> >> >a nickel cigar. They certainly won't get her a tidy house.
> >>
> >> I bet they would if SDs on-the-floor belongings started finding their way
> to
> >> the trash bin (with fair warning, of course).
> >
> >Is this a joke? I don't want to respond seriously if you're being
> >humorous, but I can't tell.
>
> Not really a joke. As I said, I can't see myself getting that upset about this
> particular issue, but if I were the type of person that I mentioned before,
> where chaos in their surroundings caused them significant distress, I could see
> them putting the belongings in a place where they couldn't be gotten to, or
> throwing them away, again, after ample warning.
I don't see much chance of GF throwing things out leading to a clean
house. This sort of behavior can get very, very ugly very, very
quickly. My understanding was that there was an extensive list of
items in GF's email. Do you see her as throwing them out without
ramifications? I don't know how much destruction of property Ex or SD
would put up with. I can't see Zip tolerating a lot; IIRC she was
upset about something - a pair of shoes? - being left outside where
they could be damaged.
I don't really know how much I would put up with. If GF could throw
out whatever dishes and towels and things of her own she wanted. I
wouldn't haul her butt into court over a pair of socks, either. I
guess I would leave it up to Lee to decide. I would advise her to
give her father the opportunity to replace things before she did
anything, too, assuming nothing irreplaceable, like her photographs,
was involved. Even then, I'd give her my perspective on turning your
home into a war zone.
Of course it could play out one way or another. Ex might throw GF
out; then she'd be living in her own place that she could keep as she
liked. SD could stop going to her father's; maybe GF could keep the
place neat without her. Ex might step up and hire a cleaning lady that
neatens up to come after the kids leave. But the first probably isn't
what GF is shooting for; the second would leave a serious burden on
her relationship with Ex; and the last she could probably effect
without destroying anyone else's property.
jane
> Sheila
>
>
Kerri Clair
>I don't see much chance of GF throwing things out leading to a clean
>house. This sort of behavior can get very, very ugly very, very
>quickly. My understanding was that there was an extensive list of
>items in GF's email. Do you see her as throwing them out without
>ramifications? I don't know how much destruction of property Ex or SD
>would put up with. I can't see Zip tolerating a lot; IIRC she was
>upset about something - a pair of shoes? - being left outside where
>they could be damaged.
>
Zip did say that about the shoes left outside. But you must have missed the
post where she said she could get behind making things that were frequently
left laying around disappear for a while, and ransoming them back to their
owner.
-Kerri
jane
> In a previous article, jan...@yahoo.com (jane) said:
>
> >> SD wants
> >> the freedom to just do what she wants and not think about anyone else.
> >
> >And now you come up with this as SD's desire and
> >motivation.
>
> Because what she's being asked to do has no value to her, and she
> doesn't want to do it.
You're making this up, too, you know
> So she doesn't. How does this *not* translate
> into "wanting to do what she wants" and "not having to think about
> anyone else"?
... and I'm not seeing the connection anyway.
>
> I assume she leaves things around because she wants to, not because
> some malign force is making her.
That's a possibility. I don't think it's likely, but it's not a
ludicrous assumption. For the record, my best guess is that she
doesn't see this as "leaving things around" at all and that sneakers
on the living room floor are no more "left around" to her than
sneakers on the closet floor.
In any event, we don't know this young woman or what's going on in her
head and there are myriad possibilities, so assumptions like this are
out of line.
>
> The same with thinking about other people. "My SM wants me to put
> this plate in the dishwasher. I know that because she bugs me about
> it all the time. But what she wants really isn't relevant to me, to
> think about it just makes my life harder, so I'm going to leave it
> here on the counter anyway." How else is this to be understood?
That I think may be verging on ludicrous, but maybe it's just too far
outside my experience. In my case, in my home, I know that no one is
thinking that way. I know by the blankness of the look when I mention
the subject.
In my house plates and cups cease to exist as soon as food and
beverage is consumed. Really. Neither DH nor Lee are capable of
seeing them anymore. They can lift them up to look underneath them,
move them aside to make room for their feet, shift them - I kid you
not - onto the floor or the arm of the chair to make room for what
they are doing, but they are completely oblivious to them. If you
told them they did those things, they would have no recollection of
it. If you showed them a movie of themselves, they wouldn't notice
the plates in the movie either.
To be fair both DH and Lee do notice dishes in the sink and on the
counter. If I collect them from around the house, they will rinse
them and run the dishwasher and even put them away. Laundry, however,
is a totally lost cause. They do not see clothes on the couch unless
they are looking for that particular item, and lee, bless her heart,
not even then. I just shift them into baskets and move the baskets
into the bedrooms.
Also, I don't think that it is likely that Zip's daughter associates
the bitching with leaving things around. More likely she associates
it with her father's GF being in a bad mood (acute cause) and pretty
fucked up over the neatness thing (chronic cause). The dishes,
sweatshirts, sneakers don't make anyone else bitch; so they can't be
what is making GF bitch all the time. She's just looking for
something to bitch about and using this as an excuse. That's how Lee
and Ty and I would be thinking about it at 16.
jane
>
> Vicki
Zipadee Doodah
> In my house plates and cups cease to exist as soon as food and
> beverage is consumed. Really. Neither DH nor Lee are capable of
> seeing them anymore. They can lift them up to look underneath them,
> move them aside to make room for their feet, shift them - I kid you
> not - onto the floor or the arm of the chair to make room for what
> they are doing, but they are completely oblivious to them. If you
> told them they did those things, they would have no recollection of
> it. If you showed them a movie of themselves, they wouldn't notice
> the plates in the movie either.
Interesting explanation. I don't think my DD is completely oblivious.
She often manages to bring her dish to the counter (as opposed to
leaving it where she ate) but then may get distracted from putting it
in the dishwasher. However I do think her shoes cease to exist as soon
as they are off her feet.
> Also, I don't think that it is likely that Zip's daughter associates
> the bitching with leaving things around. More likely she associates
> it with her father's GF being in a bad mood (acute cause) and pretty
> fucked up over the neatness thing (chronic cause). The dishes,
> sweatshirts, sneakers don't make anyone else bitch; so they can't be
> what is making GF bitch all the time. She's just looking for
> something to bitch about and using this as an excuse. That's how Lee
> and Ty and I would be thinking about it at 16.
>
> jane
I'm not certain how DD sees GF objecting to her stuff as opposed
to how she sees it when I object. When I notice something she's
left where it shouldn't, I tell her to come put it away and she
does, mostly without complaint. I'm not sure just what happens if
GF asks. I think sometimes DD feels that if she does what GF says
then GF "wins", or that she's given GF power over her that she (DD)
doesn't feel GF should have. I have no idea what gets said during
the blow-ups that occur between DD and GF.
-- Z
Wendy
"jane" <jan...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1b740b47.04082...@posting.google.com...
> I'm searching for a nonhostile way to say this, because it really
> isn't about you. For some reason people who like/want/need things
> "organized" often don't seem to recognize how insulting they are being
> to those who do not. Your "does nothing but make a mess" and "lowered
> your standards" were like chalk on the blackboard to me.
I'm sorry if what I wrote made you feel that way. This really isn't a
polarisation between two people, one liking the minimalist look and the
other Ye Olde Curio Shoppe. This is about respect for other people's things
and respect for other people's time and effort.
> I'm relatively Random. It does not please me to assign specific
> places to items in my life. I like/want/need to mix things up quite a
> bit. It creeps me out to see rooms looking the same all the time. I
> do like things in my kitchen assigned a place because when I'm cooking
> I don't want to take the time to find things. Even there, I cannot
> stand those tableware organizers; I want my utensils to mingle and get
> to know one another. And I cannot watch some of my dearest friends
> load a dishwasher, because the attention they pay to the placement of
> dirty dishes (which are always clean before they go in) just horrifies
> me.
I promise you when you visit you will see that I'm really not anal about
stuff - Okay, my living room is relatively minimalist, but I've got throws
and cushions so it's comfortable and things get protected. My bedroom, on
the other hand, is knee deep in books.
> I do not need things on the floor. I know people who do, but I don't.
> I do need things on any other flat surface. Not two candles sticks in
> the middle of the dining room table, but my keys, purse, recent mail,
> a dog toy, and an empty CD case. Bare flat surfaces unnerve me; I am
> compelled to disrupt that expanse. Couches don't need to contain a
> mountain of laundry for me, as long as there are a half dozen
> unmatched pillows strewn randomly around. It bothers me to have my
> bed made.
I don't believe that this is about Louise and indeed Madi needing disorder.
When their rooms get cleaned and organised they both are incredibly
grateful, just not enough to make the effort to do so themselves.
> What bothers me most about this is that when I look around, I see
> people fairly evenly split on the Ordered/Random scale, but in this
> area, people I know and like and respect think nothing of blantantly
> putting down people who are different from themselves.
All I know is that I feel completely overwhelmed and I need somewhere where
I can see that progress is being made and that we are on top of all that
there is to do. I can't carry on, just doing it all myself. I can't let
Barclay do it for me and then resentment between him and the girls arise
because the relationship is too important and I'm not going to be put in a
position where I have to choose. I need them to recognise that at the ages
of 13 and 18 they are old enough to do something to help. I don't expect it
to be huge. I just need them to try and make a little effort so that I'm
not spending every minute of every day working and never making any progress
towards some sense of order and calm. If I get a bathroom clean, I want it
to stay clean for more than 5 seconds. If they have a bath, I simply want
the tub washed out and wet towels put in the hamper, not on the floor. If I
cook, someone else should do the dishes. If they cook, I'll do the dishes.
I just can't do it all, Jane. I'm tired. The HRT is helping somewhat with
the depression, as has the holiday, but the thing that helps the most is
when the people I love and who love me give me a helping hand.
Okay, maybe I should look inside myself for the calm and not my
surroundings, but that's not who I am at the moment. I could change my job,
and try and find something less stressful, but that would probably mean less
income and that would be stressful in a different way.
Maybe I'm turning into my mother, Lord knows she was military in her
requirement for cleanliness and order but with five children I'm not sure
there is any other way.
I do understand that there are different personalities with different
approaches to things. I'm just trying to find a way to keep my sanity at
the moment.
Wendy
Sioux
>> I bet they would if SDs on-the-floor belongings started finding their way
>> to
>> the trash bin (with fair warning, of course).
>
I just wanted to pass along something that works for me.
My SK's are slobs, and it used to drive me batty. Actually it still does,
but I had to realize that they hadn't really been taught to clean up after
themselves. I would get angry that things were always out of place, and
scattered all over the house. It eventually enraged me that I was the only
one picking things up, and with 5 kids in the house nobody would claim any
mess. The kids would always reply "it wasn't me", or "not me" when asked who
left this out, or who made this mess. So I purchased a Rubbermaid tote and
put it in the corner, (out of sight), and a large basket that I set on a
table. I call them the "not me box", and the "wasn't me basket".
As I find things out of place, I put them in one of the containers depending
on the size of the object. Small stuff goes in the basket, and big stuff in
the tote. So, when they can't find stuff, they know where to look before
asking me. On Sunday both containers get dumped on the floor, and everyone
has to claim their items, and put them away or they get tossed. Granted I'm
still doing most the work, but at least I don't feel like I'm enabling them.
I'm not doing it for them, but for me.
As far as other chores, I have 4 sided dice (aka the "dice of doom") that I
roll to determine who has to do it, as I have 4 kids that are old enough to
do chores. That way there are no accusations of unfairness, or preferential
treatment. We also have optional chores that can be done for allowances or
for privileges. Like if someone wants to take out garbage for the whole
week, they get $5. If it is done 3 out of 7 days, they don't get paid. It
was amazing to watch them work together and pool their money to buy big
items like an XBox. If I need them to clean their room, I make it a
condition of something they want to do, like go to a friends house.
I realize that these ideas work better on younger kids, but they have saved
my sanity, and my voice. I still have to nag that certain thing be done,
like clearing plates, putting laundry in hampers etc. but those are my house
rules. I won't back down on them. Luckily my SO backs me up on that, even if
he doesn't always follow them himself. ;)
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