At my wits end....
Russell & Jeffcoat Realtors
get married in May and
his adopted daughter is really causing problems. I wanted her to be in
the wedding and her father
really forced the issue, well now everything I do isn't good enough she
has made evrything imposible.
She has pitched a fit about the bridesmaid luncheon right down to the
dresses. I have asked her father
if I could replace her because of this and he almost exploded. I feel
like she is trying to ruin our wedding (there are other things that have
happened, but this is already too long). Am I over reacting? Should I
insist on
replacing her?
Kim
Someone
is very bad form to invite someone to be part of your wedding and then
change your mind. It certainly won't help matters to alienate her like
that right off the bat, instread of trying to work together. If it's
starting off on this foot, how do you expect things to run after the
wedding?
How old is your fiancé's daughter? Her age has a lot to do with how you
could handle this.
Russell & Jeffcoat Realtors <rj...@russellandjeffcoat.com> wrote in article
<384EFAD9...@russellandjeffcoat.com>...
: I need some advice... I hope you can help me. My fiance and I are due to
:
:
Anne Robotti
day, and think of the marriage, which is a lifetime. Is the father
choosing the daughters' feelings over yours going to be a pattern? It's
a very unpleasant one to live with day to day.
Anne
Anne Robotti
Being in a wedding is a privilege, not a right. You don't get to be a
member of the bridal party, be a huge bitch, and stay in. What is bad
etiquette is to be a brat and insist on your way! I'd boot the brat,
and I don't just mean out of the wedding. My serious advice to the OP
is to think long and hard about this. This is your life for a long, long
time with this kid. Can you live with it? Are you all at least in family
counseling?
Anne
Someone wrote:
>
> I'm not very well-versed in etiquette, but from what I *do* know I think it
> is very bad form to invite someone to be part of your wedding and then
> change your mind. It certainly won't help matters to alienate her like
> that right off the bat, instread of trying to work together. If it's
> starting off on this foot, how do you expect things to run after the
> wedding?
>
> How old is your fiancé's daughter? Her age has a lot to do with how you
> could handle this.
>
> Russell & Jeffcoat Realtors <rj...@russellandjeffcoat.com> wrote in article
> <384EFAD9...@russellandjeffcoat.com>...
> : I need some advice... I hope you can help me. My fiance and I are due to
> :
> :
nicky
I have two adopted sons. The last year has been a really steep learning
curve in some of the convoluted and ultimately self-destructive 'reasoning'
that goes on for adopted kids. Not in all cases - I stress, not all. It
may not apply in your case, but here it is for your information.
For adopted kids, abandonment is a fact of life. No matter how much the
adoptive family loves and accepts them, it cannot change the fact that they
were first abandoned by their birth family - especially by their birth
mother. This means that many adopted kids expend mind-boggling amounts of
emotional and other energy testing to see how much it will take to make
other people they care about abandon them, too. The very WORST way to
handle this is to live up to their expectation and hand them the rejection
they are seeking to create. It perpetuates both the self-image of being
unlovable and worthy of abandonment, and the infuriating behaviour patterns
that arise from this underlying distortion of the self image. This kind of
behaviour is directed particularly at mother figures (or
mother-figures-to-be), presumably because the first and biggest abandonement
the child experienced was that of the birth mother (EVEN if this abandonment
happened during the essentialy 'unconscious' baby years).
So you are probably right. Your fiance's adopted daughter IS probably
trying to ruin the wedding. She is trying to make you reject her. And the
least helpful way to handle it is to exclude her. It will probably
perpetuate problems between you and her in the long run.
This is a hard thing to be told - and I am sorry for that. I know, because
I know I found it hard to swallow myself. But once you know it, it helps
you to see apparently destructive behaviour in a very different light.
(Unfortunately that insight doesn't in itself turn you into a saint with the
emotional stability to handle all these out-breaks sanely, sensibly and
calmly ........ but that's another story.)
There's a very good book on the experience of adopted children which has
helped me (and DH) a great deal in understanding what goes on behind the
behaviour. I can pass on the reference if you'd like it.
Good luck!
Nicky
Sarai
way, I'm just trying to flesh out this subject a bit. Maybe the rejection
thing is what the daughter is doing, but is that any excuse for bad
behavior? Does she go to school, act like a brat, and get her way just
because no one wants to reject her? The poster does'nt have to reject her,
but she *does'nt* have to put up with bad behavior at *her* wedding. When I
was a psych aide, (amongst all the other various jobs I've had) we dealt
every single day with children from 9 to 18 that were either wards of the
state, (the majority were) being raised by grandparents, or just living with
one parent. We got the training on all the rejecting theory stuff too, but
one thing we had to do was make an example to these kids on how to behave so
that they can LIVE in the real world. We did'nt reject them, we understood
why they cussed us out, tried to physically attack us, (and each other) call
us every name in the book, manipulate us, <insert whatever atrocity you can
think of> but we by no means condoned or made excuses for their behavior.
We wanted them to know that we were there for them, and cared enough about
them to show them that you CANNOT live in society and expect to get your way
just because you have had a crappy past. I would sit the girl down, have a
long talk with her, and let her know I cared about her, and that I wanted
her in my wedding, but If she was going to act like a brat, ruin my
wedding, and make everyone miserable then she could count herself out. Now
maybe things don't always go that smoothly, but honestly, I would not have
anyone in my wedding that was ungrateful and bratty. They would be ruining
it not only for me, but for everyone else, too, and thats not fair to the
people who act decently.
Just my opinion,
Heather
jane lawrence
>
> Kim, if I was you, I'd stop thinking about the wedding, which is one
> day, and think of the marriage, which is a lifetime. Is the father
> choosing the daughters' feelings over yours going to be a pattern? It's
> a very unpleasant one to live with day to day.
>
>
right from the start on this one. Her father and S2BSM brought
this on themselves by forcing her to participate.
Just picture yourself in that situation, Anne. Just picture
yourself. Then tell me you'd bear it with grace and dignity.
jane
jane lawrence
>
> : Now wait a second! The girl's feelings should have come first
> : right from the start on this one. Her father and S2BSM brought
> : this on themselves by forcing her to participate.
>
> future mistakes of the sort but how the heck do they deal with the current
> situation when a lot of damage has already been done?
They've got to return control to her. This decision should
never been forced on her. Civility to the new spouse is within
the realm of what a parent can reasonably expect of a child.
Joyous celebration of the death of the child's dreams is not.
What says more clearly to a child that her needs and feelings
are no longer important than overriding them because the new
spouse wishes it?
IMHO, this couple has to do the big grovel. They have to say,
"We're sorry. You were right and we were wrong. We would love
to have to help us celebrate our union, but if you're not ready
for that, we'll understand. This is your decision."
jane
Someone
: right from the start on this one. Her father and S2BSM brought
: this on themselves by forcing her to participate.
Yes, that may be true, but that was then - this is hindsight. It may help
future mistakes of the sort but how the heck do they deal with the current
situation when a lot of damage has already been done?
: Just picture yourself in that situation, Anne. Just picture
Melissa Torresan
<rob...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Since you're a good friend I feel comfortable asking, are you insane?!
>Being in a wedding is a privilege, not a right. You don't get to be a
>member of the bridal party, be a huge bitch, and stay in. What is bad
>etiquette is to be a brat and insist on your way! I'd boot the brat,
>and I don't just mean out of the wedding. My serious advice to the OP
>is to think long and hard about this. This is your life for a long, long
>time with this kid. Can you live with it? Are you all at least in family
>counseling?
I lost three bridesmaids before the big day. One I never wanted in the
first place. She was my FIL's step-daughter. I told her so after a
year of dreading telling her. Two I wanted, but they decided they
would rather be in the audience - to be honest, they were quite
worried about the dress and how it looked on them. It was sleeveless,
and neither of them liked the arms.
I agree with Anne. The job of the bridesmaids is to *support* and
*assist* not bitch and whine. Has anyone explained to her what the job
of bridesmaid means? Perhaps she just doesn't know what her role is
supposed to be?
Mel
>Anne
>
>Someone wrote:
>>
>> I'm not very well-versed in etiquette, but from what I *do* know I think it
>> is very bad form to invite someone to be part of your wedding and then
>> change your mind. It certainly won't help matters to alienate her like
>> that right off the bat, instread of trying to work together. If it's
>> starting off on this foot, how do you expect things to run after the
>> wedding?
>>
>> How old is your fiancé's daughter? Her age has a lot to do with how you
>> could handle this.
>>
>> Russell & Jeffcoat Realtors <rj...@russellandjeffcoat.com> wrote in article
>> <384EFAD9...@russellandjeffcoat.com>...
>> : I need some advice... I hope you can help me. My fiance and I are due to
>> : get married in May and
>> : his adopted daughter is really causing problems. I wanted her to be in
>> : the wedding and her father
>> : really forced the issue, well now everything I do isn't good enough she
>> : has made evrything imposible.
>> : She has pitched a fit about the bridesmaid luncheon right down to the
>> : dresses. I have asked her father
>> : if I could replace her because of this and he almost exploded. I feel
>> : like she is trying to ruin our wedding (there are other things that have
>> : happened, but this is already too long). Am I over reacting? Should I
>> : insist on
>> : replacing her?
>> :
>> : Kim
>> :
>> :
---------------------------------------------------
Melissa Torresan
sm...@crosswinds.net
"I am serious, and don't call me Shirley!"
---------------------------------------------------
Kevin
> "We're sorry. You were right and we were wrong. We would love
> to have to help us celebrate our union, but if you're not ready
> for that, we'll understand. This is your decision."
>
Kevin
--
Forget love, I'd rather fall in chocolate.
nicky
should just be allowed to get away with everything, I'm sorry. The point I
was trying (I think) to make is that the way you tackle the behaviour is
different if you take a different perspective on this. Fwiw - I (and to
lesser extent DH) have official status of 'chief wicked witch of the entire
known universe' in terms of the way other people consider our discipline
regime with our two boys! So while we try to recognise where the beahviour
is coming from, we certainly don't let that be used as an excuse for getting
away with it.
I can't comment for the child in question 'cos I don't know her personally.
I can try to elaborate a bit about the way we (try) to handle the problem.
It sounds quite simialr to your examples. That's not to say our way right -
it's just what we have found to work better than most other things we've
tried. Any suggestions for refinements or different ways to do it would be
*gleefully* pounced upon.
We try to be very clear (to the children - especially to the 7 yr old who is
old enough to understand) that we understand that there are feelings behind
his behaviour; that we recognise the validity of and his right to his
feelings; but that the way he is expressing them is NOT acceptable. Then
there are consequences for the behaviour (and we try to be very clear that
they are consequences, NOT punishment - i.e. if you behave in such-a-such a
way, then you can expect something bad to happen, so if you choose the
behaviour, you have to put up with the consequences). Tantrums, etc about
the consequences are ignored - never caved in to (and you try not caving in
to a 3 day non-stop tantrum!!!!). We try to be scrupulously consistent
about acceptable norms of behaviour, about the level of associated
consequence, and about carrying through every threatened consequence. Bad
behaviour in public which is designed to embarrass us into submission gets
exactly the same treatment as it would in private (hence the wicked witch
label). Playing pathetic and helpless gets verbal encouragement to do the
job right, not stepping in and doing it for the child. Refusal to cooperate
results in not doing anything else until the task in question has been
finished. Loads and loads and loads of talking - about why people need to
cooperate and do things for each other in famiies; about why loving you is
not the same as letting you do whatever you want; that being angry doesn't
mean I don't love you; about how being nasty is not going to get you
rejected - it just means you lose out on something you wanted; about how
there are acceptable and unacceptable ways to express unpleasant feelings.
And on and on and on. And we try (note: try, try try - often
unsuccessfully) to apply all this calmly and without losing tempers. I have
to cry guility on missing that goalpost more often than is at all helpful.
Whew! I've wittered on for ages. Does that make my original attempt any
clearer? From our perspective - it is not at all a case of allowing
antisocial behaviour to continue; just a different approach to dealing with
it.
On the school perspective: one set of adoptive parents I know had just this
problem. Their child was being thrown out of class for disruptive
behaviour. The parents ran the above argument by the teacher, and asked
that he not be thrown out because that was just building on a lifelong
pattern of rejection. The teacher then tried making him work next to her
and emphasised that the class wanted his contribution, as consequence of his
behaviour. It worked.
For the wedding - I dunno. I recognise the very real risk of leaving this
child involved and having her ruin a very special day by constantly trying
to focus attention on herself through bad behaviour. I'm not sure how we
would handle it. We would do a lot of upfront talking about it - about how
everyone wants her to be involved because she's an important part of the
family, but how her behaviour makes that difficult. Lots of re-assurance
that a change in family structure is not going to jeopardise her position or
her importance to her father. And also make it clear that, no matter *how*
important she is, the wedding itself is first and foremost about the two
people getting married, and that it would be inappropriate to be trying to
grab the limelight for herself (this approach has been surprisingly
successful for us on biggish occasions, even with our 4 yr old). Get her
involved in lots of behind-the-scences acitvity (if nothing else, keep her
too *busy* to misbehave!) About the day itself .......... I don't know what
we'd do, exactly. If it were either of ours, we'd probably take the risk -
after having read them the riot act very sternly in advance and having made
the consequences of any misbehaviour very very clear. We would probably
also quietly prime a sympathetic relative or friend to be ready to march the
offender firmly out of the church/reception should there be any significant
misbehaviour. Not an ideal solution by any means, but that's probably how
we'd do it. Whether it would work for the OP depends on her circumstances.
I've gone on far too long.......sorry
Nicky
Sarai wrote in message <82p3vp$6mc$1...@news.ipa.net>...
Nikki Murphy
Perhaps - following on from the 'weddings aren't a time to grab attention for
yourself' talk you could offer a trade off? Prepare a big day out with your SK
after the wedding sometime - a really kid focused activity. Her surrogate
wedding almost! If she's good and not attention seeking during the wedding a big
day out with all the attention on her is planned.
Nikki
nicky wrote:
>
> For the wedding - I dunno. I recognise the very real risk of leaving this
> child involved and having her ruin a very special day by constantly trying
> to focus attention on herself through bad behaviour. I'm not sure how we
> would handle it.
> And also make it clear that, no matter *how*
Someone
so I probably should have left the advice to those of you who know better
:)
Personally, if it were me, I'd postpone the wedding until all that crap
gets worked out.
Anne Robotti <rob...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<384F1C10...@worldnet.att.net>...
: Since you're a good friend I feel comfortable asking, are you insane?!
: Being in a wedding is a privilege, not a right. You don't get to be a
: member of the bridal party, be a huge bitch, and stay in. What is bad
: etiquette is to be a brat and insist on your way! I'd boot the brat,
: and I don't just mean out of the wedding. My serious advice to the OP
: is to think long and hard about this. This is your life for a long, long
: time with this kid. Can you live with it? Are you all at least in family
: counseling?
:
: Anne
: > :
:
Ralph Tompkins, Jr
living it for 7 years----tell you what there isn't much left of what was
once a relationship I thought had to be heaven-sent
Anne Robotti
wedding I didn't want to be a part of? Been there, bore it with
grace and dignity. Stuck with my dad marrying someone I didn't
want him to marry and whose life I had every intention of making
miserable? Haven't been there, probably would *not* bear it with
grace and dignity. My question to the OP is the same as my question
to *all* people looking at getting into a step parenting relationship.
The dynamic between you, the father and the kid - happy with it? Not
happy with it? If you're not happy with it is it changing or not? Are
you in counseling?
I'm not saying they should force her to be in the wedding, I don't
know the girl or her father and on the group I try to keep my eye
on the ball. I'm trying to help the OP which is why I think she's
here. And I'm saying, look at this situation carefully, because it's
not just this situation. It's your life for a long time. If she can
bear *that* with grace and dignity, thinks she can deal with the
girl on an ongoing basis, great. If not, BAIL. Now, before everyone
gets hurt even more.
Anne
jane lawrence wrote:
>
> Anne Robotti wrote:
> >
> > Kim, if I was you, I'd stop thinking about the wedding, which is one
> > day, and think of the marriage, which is a lifetime. Is the father
> > choosing the daughters' feelings over yours going to be a pattern? It's
> > a very unpleasant one to live with day to day.
> >
> >
> Now wait a second! The girl's feelings should have come first
> right from the start on this one. Her father and S2BSM brought
> this on themselves by forcing her to participate.
>
jane lawrence
>
> Well, which situation am I picturing myself in Jane? Stuck in a
> wedding I didn't want to be a part of? Been there, bore it with
> grace and dignity. Stuck with my dad marrying someone I didn't
> want him to marry and whose life I had every intention of making
> miserable? Haven't been there, probably would *not* bear it with
> grace and dignity. My question to the OP is the same as my question
> to *all* people looking at getting into a step parenting relationship.
> The dynamic between you, the father and the kid - happy with it? Not
> happy with it? If you're not happy with it is it changing or not? Are
> you in counseling?
>
> I'm not saying they should force her to be in the wedding, I don't
> know the girl or her father and on the group I try to keep my eye
> on the ball. I'm trying to help the OP which is why I think she's
> here. And I'm saying, look at this situation carefully, because it's
> not just this situation. It's your life for a long time. If she can
> bear *that* with grace and dignity, thinks she can deal with the
> girl on an ongoing basis, great. If not, BAIL. Now, before everyone
> gets hurt even more.
First, sorry if my post sounded like an attack. Rereading it, I
think I could have phrased differently.
Second, our relationships aren't set in stone. I see the kid's
situation as a combination of the two you described. She's
stuck in a wedding that she doesn't want to part of, but also in
a wedding that she does not want to occur in the first place.
OP and her fiancé screwed up. If they want things to work out
better in the future, I think they'd do better to think of the
kid's feelings first. That said, I understand that people get
tense about their wedding days, and want things to be perfect,
and lose track of other people's feelings. I think it's
reasonable to expect the child to respond well to a sincere
apology. This can be a learning experience. It doesn't have to
be a harbinger of disasters to come.
jane
lilblakdog
>Is the father
>choosing the daughters' feelings over yours going to be a pattern?
I'm a little unclear about Kim's post. She said that she wanted the
daughter in the wedding party and her fiance forced the issue.
Now to me, that sounds like she made the choice and, even though the
daughter didn't want to be a part of it, her fiance pushed the daughter into
it. Now that I've read your post, I'm looking at the possibility that it
reads more like, "I wanted the daughter to be in it, but my fiance really
pushed me to do so."
If the latter is the case, then I agree with what you're saying, Anne. He's
forcing her to do something she's clearly not happy with for the sake of his
daughter.
However, if the former is the case, then she's really made her own bed. It
would mean that *they* pushed the daughter into it, at Kim's request, and
that now Kim wants to throw her out because she's not being the perfect
angel and is making things more difficult than she'd originally pictured.
One of my bridesmaids was a real piece of work. When I asked her to be my
bridesmaid, she and I had been friends for over ten years and I'd been *her*
bridesmaid. I didn't give any real thought to the fact that I'd only heard
from her sporadically the last couple of years and that we really didn't
have much in common anymore. It was just a knee-jerk reaction to how I
thought I *should* act. During the course of the engagement, she acted
bitter and jealous towards me. I almost never heard from her. She didn't
want to give me her measurements until she lost weight. Then when she
decided to stop dieting and just give me the measurements (telling me not to
bother making the dress one size smaller, as I suggested, because she was
sure it wouldn't be necessary), she lost twenty pounds and the dress had to
be made again at the last minute. She was difficult, to say the least. She
was moody during the bridesmaid brunch and told everyone at the wedding how
poorly she felt it was done.
Long before it was time to walk down the aisle, I had a list of half a dozen
other people who I was kicking myself for not asking instead. What Jane
said is true--getting to be a bridesmaid is not an honour; someone agreeing
to be your bridesmaid is. There simply is no good time to say, "Your
attitude sucks; you're cut."
Sometimes you just don't think about the consequences of what you think you
want. Kim probably should have looked at the state of her relationship with
her fiance's daughter before asking her to be a part of the wedding, same as
I should have looked at the state of my friendship with Joey. Chances are,
if the daughter is so eager to ruin the wedding, she was never really keen
on the idea of it to begin with. And though it was very nice on Kim's part
to make her want to feel a part of it, sometimes maybe we should give a
little more thought to the position that it puts the other person in.
I don't know...just a thought.
lil
---
"Who is at fault when a monster is a monster? Is it the monster's? Or the
person who created it to be a monster?"
Anne Robotti
father "freaked." Now, that could mean a lot of things. It could
mean that the father put his foot down with Kim and said his daughter
was going to be in the wedding regardless of *both* their feelings. It
could mean that the father thinks his daughter will be hurt by being
kicked out of the wedding regardless of the attitude she's displaying,
and refuses to allow it regardless of *Kim's* feelings. Either way...
which guy do you want to be married to? The guy with no regard for
anybody's feelings, or the guy with more regard for everybody's but
yours?
Anne
lilblakdog
>But Lil, the kid is being a bitch.
Agreed! :-)
> Kim wanted to kick her out, the
>father "freaked."
>
>...
>
>It
>could mean that the father thinks his daughter will be hurt by being
>kicked out of the wedding regardless of the attitude she's displaying,
>and refuses to allow it regardless of *Kim's* feelings.
What I'm imagining (and I'm in *no* way saying I'm right) is a scenario like
this:
Kim: I'd like S2BSD in the wedding.
S2BSD: No thank you.
Fiance: Now, BD, Kim wants you to be in the wedding and so you're going to
be in the wedding, like it or not.
Now S2BSD is kicking up a fuss. She doesn't like it; she's been pushed into
it; she's being a bitch.
Kim: I don't want S2BSD in the wedding anymore.
S2BSD: Well what is it exactly that you want from me? I didn't want to do
it in the first place!
Fiance: Kim, you wanted S2BSD in the wedding; you can't just kick her out
now.
I'm just not really sure that Kim's fiance's putting his foot down was such
a terrible thing. Yeah, it's putting the daughter before Kim but I'm not
convinced it's completely unwarranted. After all, he put Kim ahead of the
daughter originally, so it's not like there's a distinct pattern here.
Now I've just come out of a marriage where the child was of primary
importance and I wasn't even informed of visitations, so believe me when I
say that Kim shouldn't even think about marrying a man whose only concern is
that of his daughter's feelings. But I *can* see a situation where he
doesn't turn out to be the ogre that he might very well be.
lil (who's so confused about what she's saying today--did I mention I'm
home with the flu?--that she's going to read this over a time or two before
hitting the "send" button!)
nicky
<snipped>
>Kim: I'd like S2BSD in the wedding.
>S2BSD: No thank you.
>Fiance: Now, BD, Kim wants you to be in the wedding and so you're going to
>be in the wedding, like it or not.
>
>Now S2BSD is kicking up a fuss. She doesn't like it; she's been pushed
into
>it; she's being a bitch.
>
>Kim: I don't want S2BSD in the wedding anymore.
>S2BSD: Well what is it exactly that you want from me? I didn't want to do
>it in the first place!
>Fiance: Kim, you wanted S2BSD in the wedding; you can't just kick her out
>now.
I can imagine yet another scenario here - because I'd bet good money it's
exactly what would happen with our eldest adopted (similar has happened in
different contexts):
Child desperately wants to be part of the occasion. Child gets given
opportunity to be part of the occasion. Child is totally freaked out, being
torn between wanting to be part and feeling insecure of his/her position -
and consequently acts like a little barbarian to try to make sure everyone
is taking care of his/her end. What do you do then? You can't simply kick
the child out, 'cos then you're feeding the insecurity. You can't let
him/her run riot through the occasion because it isn't fair on everyone else
and it wouldn't teach the child anything about the give-and-take required to
live as part of society.
If this is true, maybe the father is just recognising his daughter's
underlying conflict of feelings and is trying to make sure her fear of
abandonment doesn't get re-inforced. And if so, then that fear is something
the OP will have to live with if she is to become the girl's mother - and
this is as good a time as any to start figuring out strategies for dealing
with it.
Right now we're all slightly in the dark about the child's original position
on being part of the wedding (or maybe it's just me, and it's nice and
comforting for me to think I'm not the only one!). Maybe the OP could
clarify?
Nicky