"Bad" Bioparents advice please!
Nikki Murphy
An issue that I wouldn't mind some advice with that occured to me reading your
post is help with talking to step children about their bio moms in a way that
encourages them to admit the love that they will always have for them (god knows
my dad has driven me away for years but i always go back for more! :-)), whilst
acknowledging the difficulties and being open about their feelings.
I'm interested because after 2.5 years full time with us and only about 11
visits from bio mom in that time my 9 yr old SS has recently started opening up
about his feelings surrounding his mother.
We've always tried to be open but he hasn't been capable of naming feelings
before due to his age, but he is very mature now and now that he's starting
talking he's so articulate about it that we can hardly believe it!
His mother is a drug addict, alchoholic and has several eating disorders. Her
main problem though is a complete inability to relate to anyone, least of all
her child. He was pushed from pillar to post while he lived with her until he
was 6 when she abandoned him and he ended up with us, for which we're very
grateful.
He has had a very, very bad time. His mother hasn't seen him now since July and
hasn't even called in three months so we've recently been dealing with this as
he feels abandoned again.
One of the reasons that I pointed out the bio mum's problems was to make the
point that no discussion was ever encouraged in this family. My SS used to
spend lots of time at his maternal grandmothers with his bio mom, and no one
would even acknowledge that she was ill or something was wrong when she refused
to eat and only weighed about 80 pounds. I know if I went to my mother's at
that weight she would dog me forever to sort my problems out with me (!) - so I
find this total silence strange.
As a result my SS obviously carries a lot of issues about discussion of problems
or lack of - so we are very pleased that he is finally 'stopping pretending' and
being honest about his thoughts. For example, as I said, he will always love
her - and he's now acknowledging that, while saying that if she gets in touch at
Xmas he would like to see her after the New Year and regularly after that - but
not at christmas because he doesn't want her ruining his christmas or the
holidays.
Naturally when he says anything that we feel might be biased to please us we
always say that we hope he isn't saying it for our benefit because he thinks
it's what we want to hear - all we want is his honesty - and he swears that it's
what he genuinely wants.
As a couple, my partner and I have accepted that the bio mom will probably
continue in a vain of having periods of wellness followed by periods of being
unwell for whatever reason and so our goal is simply to teach our SS to
understand that she always loves him and he mustn't base his thoughts on her on
her coming in and going out of his life. Also we want to teach him coping
mechanisms for when these times occur.
Now that he has begun communicating we want to encourage and help him in the
best way possible, without prejudice, with honesty and not to please us. We've
been trying to get him to open up and now that he has we feel it's very
important that we get it right.
Any ideas or suggestions anyone?
Thanks
Nikki
Yvette Campbell wrote:
> OK - Re "bad biomothers" who don't deserve to be loved by their children:
>
> A child's mother may have married and divorced six times; have six children
> each one by different fathers; be addicted to alcohol, cigarettes, heroin
> and marijuana; earn $100 a night as a prostitute and not spend a cent of it
> on her bio-children; swear like a trouper; sleep all day; never cook a meal
> and keep a house like a shipwreck. She is still her biological child's
> mother.
>
> We adults would call such mothers "bad". But children, especially little
> children, can forgive adults almost anything - especially their natural
> parents. As long as they have a roof over their heads, full tummies and
> clothes on their back, they sometimes don't even notice mum's "bad"
> behaviour - to them, "it's just mum, it's how it's always been" - they don't
> know anything different. And they adjust, and fit in around mum and her
> lifestyle, right or wrong.
Vicki Robinson
>
>Now that he has begun communicating we want to encourage and help him in the
>best way possible, without prejudice, with honesty and not to please us. We've
>been trying to get him to open up and now that he has we feel it's very
>important that we get it right.
>
>Any ideas or suggestions anyone?
I think you're doing fine! Are *you* satisfied with the level and
kind of communication that you're getting from him? It sounds as
though he's very aware of his feelings and that he can accept his own
ambivalence about his mother, and I'm sure that that's true because
you have acknowledged that the ambivalence is valid and natural.
From what you say, you've created a safe place for him to love his mom
even though she's not capable of loving him back in a "motherly" way,
and you've taught him compassion and empathy for her. These are
wonderful things!
Unless I've missed your real question completely, I'd say that you
seem to be doing everything right. And it's not an easy road that
you've chosen; you and your partner (husband? I don't remember)
should be proud of yourselves; it's not easy for you, but it will pay
off hugely for your SS in the end.
Vicki
--
Mediation and Alternative Dispute Resolution Resources:
http://www.rit.edu/~vjrnts/mediation/mediation.html
The alt.folklore.urban FAQ and archive can be found at
http://www.urbanlegends.com/
Zoo-Mama
<ni...@impactwp.com> wrote:
> His mother is a drug addict, alchoholic and has several eating disorders. Her
> main problem though is a complete inability to relate to anyone, least of all
> her child. He was pushed from pillar to post while he lived with her until he
> was 6 when she abandoned him and he ended up with us, for which we're very
> grateful.
Sounds familiar. My boys' biomom is a prescription drug addict and suffers
from severe depression. While she was in this house she couldn't be
counted on to do anything from basic cleaning to taking the boys for eye
exams when the school recommended it. She worked for a while as a nurse,
but after she quit working she basically sat around playing on the Internet
and smoking. All the time. You should have seen the stuff I cleaned out
of this house in the last year and a half. She's completely crazy and I
am so glad that she is in another country. Fortunately I don't have to
deal with her very often. She's visited twice in the last year and calls
every couple of weeks or so. When I answer the phone she says things that
are brusque to say the least, such as "Let me talk to my children." No
hello, no nothing.
Oops, didn't mean to go that far into things there. Oh well. I'm sure
some of you also have crazy people to deal with in your kids' families...
but it's so nice to hear that there are some functional families out
there as well.
Maren
--
Maren Britt Eliason "Zoo-Mama"
meli...@ionet.net http://ohww.norman.ok.us/maren/
Dogs: Maddie, Pablo, Marlow, Oscar, Shaggy and Homer
And cats: Zelda, Al, Jack, and Sabrina And cockatoo: Max
Nikki Murphy
another post I read about someone who said that as an SM you often 'check' that
you're doing the right thing. I like to make sure that my motives are genuine and
that I'm not acting from a subconscious need (which i must have it's only natural)
for my SS to reject his bio mom.
The signs are there that we are approaching a difficult time. I know he has said
that he doesn't want to speak or see his bio mom over Christmas but he's still going
to feel it if she doesn't get in touch. At this point we've no idea what she will
or won't do.
I think he's in a place of conflict at the moment and it's only going to get more
difficult as we approach the holidays. I find it so frustrating that she doesn't
even let us know what's happening.
One thing that has occured to me harks back to when my SS came to live with us. Up
until two months before that happened we had been communicating and trying to
support bio mom who was in obvious decline as her partner (now husband) had gone to
prison and she does not like coping alone. In one discussion, very relaxed and in a
pub (probably not the best place we could have taken her as an alchoholic but we
didn't know the extent at that point) we were talking about how we could help her
with Ben and she frantically said 'oh you won't take him off me, will you - I need
him'. A dubious statement, but we, of course, replied 'no, of course we wouldn't
mount a custody battle behind your back, don't worry, etc' as we thought that was
what she wanted to hear (and it was the truth).
A short time later she vanished and abandoned my SS leaving no alternative for him
than to come to us. She received notification of the custody hearings and just
didn't turn up, knowing that by default this would mean my partner would get full
custody.
We often wonder now if her question to us actually meant 'i can't cope, please take
him off me' as she effectively created a situation in which that was the only
result.
The reason I bring this up now is that in April (her penultimate visit with my SS as
it turned out) we had a long talk with her (well to her, she doesn't really have the
ability to have discussions) and explained our concerns about the way that contact
was going. We'd tried every other method of talking to her, offering our support
etc which hadn't made any change in her behaviour, and so I guess we tried to kick
start her into getting off her bum and focusing on my SS rather than herself.
Amongst many other things, and in context we told her that we genuinely could not
see any good effect for my SS in seeing her and wanted her to tell us why she thinks
it's important for him to see her. She had no answer - and I don't mean we didn't
like what she said - I mean she sat with her hand to her chest and stared. We said
that we were unsure as to if there was any point to it at all.
No we know that there is no way on god's earth that if she went to court for a
contact order (everything until now has been done outside court as we got to the
point of going to court and she begged us not to make her go and we were basically
forced to give her contact) that anyone would deny it - but as I said we were trying
to show her the effects of her actions and trying to wake her up a bit to make the
effort that she so clearly needs to make.
She has seen him once since then - and since then has only phoned twice - after his
birthday in September when she was so hysterical and behaving so bizarrely that my
partner decided it would not be healthy for Ben to talk to her.
We then found out what was going on in her life, yada yada usual story, but the
basic result was that we agreed with her husband (she often just lets him take the
reigns even though we've told her it's important for my SS to see HER making the
effort) that she would phone us in a couple of days.
That was about September 20th. Since then, not a word.
We did not deny her contact or anything at all so why has she not got in touch?
Does this make sense? What I mean in simple terms is: we tell her we won't take ben
off her. she engineers a situation where that is the only result. we tell her this
year that we don't automatically assume that it is good for my ss to see her just
because she's his bio mom - she has to make effort to - and so she engineers a
situation where she isn't seeing him.
Bearing in mind that this woman is the most manipulative on the planet - these
things are the types of actions that she might take - and they are certainly the way
that she does things - i just don't know if our interpretations are correct.
any insight anyone?
n
janelaw
>
> Hi Yvette
>
> An issue that I wouldn't mind some advice with that occured to me reading your
> post is help with talking to step children about their bio moms in a way that
> encourages them to admit the love that they will always have for them (god knows
> my dad has driven me away for years but i always go back for more! :-)), whilst
> acknowledging the difficulties and being open about their feelings.
>
> I'm interested because after 2.5 years full time with us and only about 11
> visits from bio mom in that time my 9 yr old SS has recently started opening up
> about his feelings surrounding his mother.
>
> We've always tried to be open but he hasn't been capable of naming feelings
> before due to his age, but he is very mature now and now that he's starting
> talking he's so articulate about it that we can hardly believe it!
>
> main problem though is a complete inability to relate to anyone, least of all
> her child. He was pushed from pillar to post while he lived with her until he
> was 6 when she abandoned him and he ended up with us, for which we're very
> grateful.
>
> best way possible, without prejudice, with honesty and not to please us. We've
> been trying to get him to open up and now that he has we feel it's very
> important that we get it right.
>
> Any ideas or suggestions anyone?
> Nikki
>
>
Nikki,
If I've got this right, you want SS to have a framework for
accepting both his mother's limitations and his own feelings of
hurt, resentment, etc. You also want him to feel safe to
express himself on these issues within your family.
Since he is coming to terms with the issues, counseling comes to
mind. Also, I think it's generally a good idea to make sure
kids know they can discuss things with other adults in their
lives without feeling they are betraying anyone. What about
some time with GM? I'm not really sure what a gestalt therapist
is (sorry). I'm guessing it involves counseling skills,
though. She already pretty much knows the details. Maybe she
is removed enough that he will feel less like he is betraying
you or his BPs when he talks about conflicting feelings.
I've noticed my daughter hesitates to discuss our failings
directly with her father or me. She is much more comfortable
telling DH or my ex's SO that we are completely unreasonable
about something.
Sometimes I have to give her "permission" to talk about things
that might reflect badly on someone. I have to say the awful
things out loud first. Then she can look at it and talk about
it. For example, she just spent a week with her dad at
Thanksgiving. I could tell something was wrong when she came
back, but she wasn't talking. Finally, I had to say, "All
right, what went wrong on your visit with your dad?" Then I had
to make her call him and talk about it. If I had left it alone,
she wouldn't have discussed it with either of us.
You're in a much tougher position. SS spent his early years in
a family that didn't talk about anything. Besides that, there
are so many "unspeakables." I'm willing to bet the thought that
he should be taking care of his mom is floating around in his
head somewhere. How can it *not* have crossed his mind that her
illnesses are all his fault? There are all those fuzzy vague
ideas that he can't really evaluate until he can actually bring
himself to look at them. It sounds to me like he is starting to
deal with his issues with his mother. They are all tangled up
with issues about you and DH that are probably much harder to
verbalize in front of you guys.
Maybe you should think about saying some of the unspeakables
about yourselves out loud and giving him permission to think and
talk about them. It's hard, because it forces you to deal with
some of your own unresolved stuff. Say DH said something like,
"Do you ever think I abandoned you when I left you with mom?" or
"Sometimes I think that if I could have helped your mom more
then she could be with you now." Then SS would feel "validated"
in pursuing and working out those feelings too. If you say, "Do
you wonder if mom would call you more if I weren't here?" then
SS can admit that the idea has crossed his mind without feeling
he is hurting or alienating you.
Please don't infer that I think any of the statements above are
"true." I'm NOT saying that DH should have stayed with BM or
that you in any way impede her visits. It's just that SS can't
reject those ideas unless he can look at them.
jane
janelaw
this.
Did you ever "know" you had to do something that you just could
not cope with the consequences of? Some people set up a
situation so that the decision is taken out of their hands. You
must know someone who hated their job but couldn't afford to
quit, and showed up late or did sloppy work until she was
fired. Did you ever have a friend who wanted to break up with a
romantic partner and couldn't? Did you ever wonder why she
cheated on, repeatedly stood up, or just generally tortured him
until he broke up with her? Ever know anyone who put off paying
taxes until the government came and took her house?
Ever meet a woman who could not care for her child, but could
not let him go? Sending her baby away to live with his dad was
something she could not do. Nor could she watch her illness
slowly destroy him any longer. Maybe for BM having the
court/stupid judge/unjust system take him away enabled her to
"save" her child even though she couldn't save herself.
> The reason I bring this up now is that in April (her penultimate visit with my SS as
> it turned out) we had a long talk with her (well to her, she doesn't really have the
> ability to have discussions) and explained our concerns about the way that contact
> was going. We'd tried every other method of talking to her, offering our support
> etc which hadn't made any change in her behaviour, and so I guess we tried to kick
> start her into getting off her bum and focusing on my SS rather than herself.
> Amongst many other things, and in context we told her that we genuinely could not
> see any good effect for my SS in seeing her and wanted her to tell us why she thinks
> it's important for him to see her. She had no answer - and I don't mean we didn't
> like what she said - I mean she sat with her hand to her chest and stared. We said
> that we were unsure as to if there was any point to it at all.
>
This is different. Incidentally, this may be one of the
"unspeakables" I was talking about in my other post. Have you
discussed this with SS?
You didn't drive her away precisely. You confirmed her worst
nightmare. You also gave her permission to stop trying to pull
herself together for the sake of her child.
I think you made a big mistake. Maybe you still can't see any
good effect in your SS seeing her sorry self, but I think his
pain in not seeing her is pretty evident. SS has a lot of
issues he needs to resolve with and about his mom. Contact with
her will help him do that. I know you want to protect him from
her hurting him any more. But he needs her to work out the pain
that's already inside him.
You've got to take back what you said to her. Call her and tell
her you were wrong. Tell her how much SS loves and needs her.
Ask her what she would like to do about xmas. I don't think
you have to go with whatever she says, but I'd accept her
opinion of what she can deal with. If she says that she can't
commit to any specific time to visit, she probably can't.
Trying to force her to will probably just lead to her either not
showing up or showing up wasted. You have to take away the
permission you gave her not to try. You also have to give SS
permission to contact her and to try to work things out with her
on his own.
You can't cure BM's mental illness or make her behave like a
person who is not mentally ill. You also can't change the fact
that she is SS's mother or erase the damage she has done. The
best you can do for SS is to maintain the safe and supportive
environment he has at your home. You don't have to set him up
to get kicked in the teeth all the time, but you can't let your
buffers become barriers, either.
>snip remainder
jane
P.S. Please excuse the didactic tone of this post. I don't
really mean you "have" to do anything.
Gp lenexa
>herself together for the sake of her child.
I have zero experience with this type of person, so this is more of a question
... If a person can't pull herself together for her own self, can she do it for
someone else, even her child? In other words, the old "you must love yourself
before you can truly love another person" thing.
Geri
janelaw
>
> >You also gave her permission to stop trying to pull
> >herself together for the sake of her child.
>
> ... If a person can't pull herself together for her own self, can she do it for
> someone else, even her child? In other words, the old "you must love yourself
> before you can truly love another person" thing.
>
> Geri
I think the extent to which she can succeed at pulling herself
together is influenced by myriad factors. What I think she
heard Nikki say is: "SS will be better off if you don't even
try."
Nikki Murphy
We didn't withdraw the contact or suggest that it needed withdrawing - just pointed out a
few things that we making my SS very uncomfortable when he saw her.
I'm sorry - but this woman lives her life trapped in three roles - victim, persecutor or
rescuer. She can only deal with people that fit in with her triangle and she has tried to
paint me as her rescuer before. Only problem is once you help her she doesn't let go and
still doesn't take the responsibility herself.
My SS doesn't want to call her himself. He doesn't want to send her a Christmas card. He
doesn't want to speak to or see her over Christmas. So I don't think me calling her would
be a good idea.
I appreciate your response but I'm not ringing up this woman and saving her. I've tried
before and as I said she just latches on as you are her rescuer. Then when you try and
get her to take responsibility for herself she decides you are the persecutor and she's
quite content with that.
My responsibility is to my SS and not her. My SS can contact her at any time and she is
free to contact us at any time. She is not seeing at the moment out of her own choice and
i don't believe it's my responsibility to sort it out for her.
Another key point I feel is that quite amazingly my SS had a very bizarre reaction when I
was regularly communicating with his bio mom. I was trying to be honest and talk to her
about how she could genuinely rebuild her relationship with her son. Unfortunately,
although I didn't realise she was just saying yes, no, three bags full because she thinks
everyone talks bullshit because she does - but I didnt' know that at the time!
My SS had a very bad reaction and when we finally got to the bottom of it he said that he
was scared because 'you're on her side now, Nikki' and 'i think she's manipulating you'.
Not what I expected but that's kids for you.
So thanks Jane but I don't think this course of action is one that i'll follow. I'm sure
it will be a great christmas anyway!
Nikki
Nikki Murphy
We didn't say that my SS would be better off if she didn't try, we were just trying
to outline some of the things that she could do to make things easier on Ben. Most
of them were just little things...
She refuses to even discuss things really - like I said she expects that everyone in
the world just lies and manipulates others the way that she does, so everything that
we say is written off as she doesn't ever believe that a person could have good
motives.
Even stupid things - I've tried to get her to talk about her feelings for me, for
example. I mean, in all honesty she's got to resent me right?! She refuses to even
acknowledge that she has these feelings while her husband is telling me how she
outright despises me.
It just feels like nothing ever gets through and if she won't even listen to me or
assume that i might actually be telling the truth and trying to help her then i don't
feel that there is anything i can do about her - rather i just focus on what we can
do here with my SS.
It reminds me of 'accept the things that you can't change and have the courage to
change the things that you can'.
thanks everyone for your advice though...
n
janelaw wrote:
> Gp lenexa wrote:
> >
> > >You also gave her permission to stop trying to pull
> > >herself together for the sake of her child.
> >
kahiba
share my point of view on this subject.
I've noticed that there is a lot of support on this group for
encouraging as much of a relationship as possible between a child and
an irresponsible/mentally ill/"bad" parent. It's been pointed out that
even when we adults can easily see what a lousy parent someone is, that
individual's children still love him or her very much, and need and
want a relationship with both parents, no matter what.
That's a wonderful attitude. You all are to be commended for it.
However, I can't help help but wonder as I read your posts if any of
you have been in the position of having a "bad" bioparent. I'm sure
some of you have - but I'm not sure those are the people who have been
posting on this subject. I don't think those of us who have had those
kind of parents would agree with what you say.
My father is mentally ill. I don't have a convenient label for what is
wrong with him. He's had several different diagnoses of the years -
all we really know is that if he will take his anti-psychotics, he's
not too bad. Unfortunately, he will rarely agree to take them.
I agree that no matter how bad a parent is, their children love them.
My father's inability to be a "real" dad to me has been a source of
heartache all my life. I love him very much, and I wish that he was
able to love me in a healthy, sane way. Learning to accept the fact
that he just isn't able to do that, and never will be, has been a
difficult and painful process.
Learning to overcome the damage he did to me as a child has been even
more difficult and painful, however. I am in my mid 30's, and I still
struggle daily with learning to love and trust the people in my life. I
still live in fear of other people's reactions, not trusting them to
behave in predictable and rational ways.
I really wish that my father had not been part of my growing up years.
Having that relationship with him has not been worth the crippling
influence he has had on my life. In the long run, his presence in my
life has done far more damage than good. I am not foolish enough to
think that everything would be wonderful if I had been raised without
him, but I know that the majority of the problems I struggle with would
not be part of my life. The are directly the result of my father's
influence. It would not have been easy having him gone - but it would
have been better for me.
Of course, this is just one person's POV. But I thought I needed to
share it, since I am speaking from experience.
kahiba at hotmail dot com
--
Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email -- always at Talkway.
http://www.talkway.com
Nikki Murphy
the uncharitable feelings that I have for this 'bad parent' in my
situation.
It's not politically correct I don't think to say that in some cases it is
more damaging to the child to have the contact rather than not have it -
and I think this is because there are probably not that many situations
where it's actually and totally true. I don't mean that it doesn't happen
(as in your case your opinion is absolutely valid) just that there must be
many custodial parents and step parents that 'think' it's a good idea for
the child not to see the non custodial parent where in fact it probably
isn't the best thing for the child.
To stop being politically correct I have to say (and nobody flame me please
i'm being vulnerable here!) that in my particular situation I don't believe
that the bio mom of my step son has anything to give him and he does indeed
get more damaged through the process of seeing her than he does in the long
periods where he has no contact with her. I've spent years wondering if
it's down to a little place inside of me where I don't want her around -
and i've decided that no it isn't. It's true. Very, very sad, but true.
So there you go - there are some people that agree with you! I pretty much
refuse to voice that paragraph above as my opinion as I find people are not
often prepared to discuss it, rather they put me in a nice comfortable
'wicked step mom' box. I don't mean people in this group BTW - rather
other external influences.
Anyway thanks for your honesty! There are not many people who are well
adjusted enough to make the sort of statement that you made.
I just hope that although I can't do anything to stop our 'bad parent'
having contact with my SS I can focus on providing a good environment for
him for the 95% of the time when she's not around - in an attempt to ensure
that he doesn't feel the same as you in the future.
Kind Regards
Nikki
Vicki Robinson
>
>I just hope that although I can't do anything to stop our 'bad parent'
>having contact with my SS I can focus on providing a good environment for
>him for the 95% of the time when she's not around - in an attempt to ensure
>that he doesn't feel the same as you in the future.
>
I think that this is key. Kahiba, thank you for posting your
experience, and you have my sympathies for the genuine pain you've
experienced. I was wondering what your living arrangements were like
as you coped with this mentally ill father. Did you live with him?
Were excuses made for him, making you feel responsible for his
behavior?
I ask because I think Nikki has raised an important point. I don't
think anyone on this newsgroup would advocate leaving a severely
mentally ill parent with custody of a child. If one of the bioparents
is ill and the other can offer stability, love and support, then the
child definitely belongs with the well parent. (This seems
self-evident, although I realize that the courts don't always see it
that way.) But I worry too about a child who never sees the ill
parent constructing fantasies about him or her, through his need to
have some kind of relationship. I've already posted this story, so
I'll summarize, but the son of a friend of mine had decided that his
biodad (who had abandoned him and my friend in his infancy) was really
a wonderful guy who had been driven off by his mother. When he was a
teenager, he contacted his dad and found that indeed his dad had zero
interest in him and told him flat out that he never wanted to see him
and that he should stay out of his life. It was crushing for the boy,
doubly so because the loving and caring dad he had created in his mind
was very real to him at that point.
If children don't see a mentally ill parent, they don't know what the
parent is struggling with. They could build castles in the air of
this wonderful parent who would love them and never make them clean
their rooms, unlike the unfair people with whom they now live. Isn't
it better that the child sees, from a position of protection and
security, the the ill parent is indeed incapable of being a parent and
is wrestling with his or her own demons to the exclusion of anything
else in his or her life? It's not pleasant, but it's real, and with
proper support and help in interpreting what's going on, I would think
that such children might grow up with compassion and empathy, and the
knowledge that their parent's illness is not their fault or
responsibility.
I don't know from personal experience, so I will listen to those of
you who live it. But some of you have children whose NCP is diagnosed
as seriously mentally ill; do you feel that it's to your child's
advantage to maintain some kind of protected contact with the ill
parent? Since it is impossible that severing contact would wipe that
parent out of the child's heart and mind, what are the pros and cons
of blocking contact? Pro #1 is that the ill parent doesn't have any
further chance of hurting his child, of course. But what else is
there? Would he romanticize the parents or the parent's illness?
("If I were there, I could take care of her and she'd be better.")
This is going to be an interesting thread, I think.
Nikki Murphy
reasons we do agree to my SS seeing his bio mom. As I believe I mentioned
before my soon to be mother in law is a gestalt therapist and she often says
things of this type.
I think it is true that children fantasise about non present parents. My SS has
a friend at school who has an older half sister who is now 16 called N. She was
born in the US to a UK mum and her father (hesitate to use that word!) last saw
her when she was 3 weeks old.
About two years ago she started a year long phase of yearning to find out about
her real dad. she has photos and stories from her mom but still. also she has
a step dad who she calls dad that she's known since she was 3. She thought
about writing and stuff but eventually realised it probably wasn't worth it and
she seems to have come out of the other side now.
So while I think avoiding the fantasy is one important element - in our
situation it's a modified version. Although it literally breaks my SS's heart
every time he sees bio mom on some level at least he is learning to deal with
it. We've pretty much accepted that she will go in and out of his life depending
on how she feels so on one level it's important for him to learn to deal with
that. So not only is he not fantasising about her but he's learning important
skills about how to handle his relationship with her for a lifetime. I think
I'd prefer him to have an innocent childhood though and start this later on -
but oh well!
Another interesting side to the fantasy idea though is that it doesn't just
occur with an absent parent. My SS lived with bio mom until he was six and
until he started opening up about six months ago he had more of a fantasy about
his bio mom than anything else.
When they lived together they wouldn't let go of each other in public. They
were always declaring 'love you, love you' when saying goodbye (notice the lack
of I). To the outside they were the closest mum and son you've ever seen.
it was only after he moved in we realised the extent of the deception. behind
closed doors she never did a thing for him - her boyfriend did everything. My
SS says he used to want to ask her if she was dying because she looked so sick
while she talked of new babies and white picket fences.
He kept it up for years. Quite typical I believe for the children of
alchoholics to cover up for them. One time they were living at the boyfriend's
parents house. These parents had bought an expensive bottle of brandy in a
presentation box. One morning one of these parents opened it to check it before
giving it to a friend while ben was there on his own and all the brandy was
gone. they knew who had taken it and my SS said 'perhaps my teddy came down in
the night and drank it'. We found out later he'd observed bio mom several times
during nightime food and drink binges...
So, he actually had the larger and more dangerous fantasy while living with the
bio mom.
I'm not saying anything definitite either way - just that I think that this
fantasy occurs for the child under a variety of situations.
Also, do you think that children get to a point when they have enough
information not to fantasise about the absent parent?
Another question - do we think this is different for mothers and fathers? I ask
because as my SS doesn't live with his mother, and indeed he doesn't know anyone
who doesn't live with their mother - although there are a couple of absent dads
- is the fantasy more likely to occur with a father? My SS constantly has
reminders that 'he's the only one without his mum' in the form of advertising
and other social reminders - 'Mum' stuff is around us all of the time. The fact
that it's his Mother that is the absent one seems to be a determining factor in
how bad he feels about it.
What i mean is - as he is constantly reminded that he doesn't live with his mum
he constantly realises that this is odd - it's 'normally' the father that's not
around. i think this makes him feel extra bad. So even if he doesn't see her
for extended periods (longest we've had was a year - and boy was he a settled
and happy little chap at the end of that!) would he be likely to succumb to
fantasy?
You might notice that i find this rather interesting!
n
jan...@excite.com
>
> I meant to reply to this post with the other one but forgot so sorry!
>
> We didn't say that my SS would be better off if she didn't try, we were just trying
> to outline some of the things that she could do to make things easier on Ben. Most
> of them were just little things...
>
I'm not going to argue about this; you know BM, I don't. I have
confidence you'll thrash this situation out. I do want to
clarify one thing, though.
I think I need to rephrase what I said before about you giving
her permission not to try. I'm sure that's not what you thought
you were saying. I'm willing to bet that it's not what a
neutral observer would have heard, either. I just think that's
how your words ended up in BM's mind. Of course, I could be
completely wrong.
I think (hope) even non-psychotic people hear what you say in
their own terms. I've noticed this recently in another NG.
Some posters insist that the prior poster said things that the
rest of us don't see in the post. Even here, I sometimes read a
response and think, "Where the hell did that come from?" When I
re-read the original post, sometimes I see what triggered the
response, sometimes I don't.
Lately I've been thinking that people misunderstand this and
think the other is deliberately twisting their words. I don't
know much about communication or psychology, so I don't know if
this is something that has a name. Have you ever heard the kind
of conversation where A says one thing, B hears something else,
and they end up arguing? Observer C has no idea what they are
talking about.
I'm getting lost. I better stop. But I'd really like someone
else to tell me if they know what I'm talking about.
jane
jan...@excite.com
>
> Reading this thread (and similar topics on Dejanews) has prompted me to
> share my point of view on this subject.
>
>
Nikki Murphy
communication between men and women! We say 'you haven't done the washing up' and they
hear 'you're a useless b*st*rd get in there and start cleaning'. They say 'oh I don't
feel like going out tonight' and we hear 'appear in public with you? are you mad?'
Stupid examples but i know what you mean. I'm sure she did hear what you said she heard
but as i've mentioned this bio mom has just sent us a letter this morning so i obviously
didn't put her off!
n
jan...@excite.com
>
> I understand you precisely - and I think the major example of this that we have is
> communication between men and women! We say 'you haven't done the washing up' and they
> hear 'you're a useless b*st*rd get in there and start cleaning'. They say 'oh I don't
> feel like going out tonight' and we hear 'appear in public with you? are you mad?'
>
> Stupid examples but i know what you mean. I'm sure she did hear what you said she heard
> but as i've mentioned this bio mom has just sent us a letter this morning so i obviously
> didn't put her off!
>
> n
>
>
hard on SS.
jane
(who apparently is NOT the only woman who hears, "You look
awful," when DH says, "You look tired")
Nikki Murphy
reluctant to make any statement unless it's been an organisation of something he's
already said to me. Or I offer lots of alternatives. I think i probably worry too
much and your advice about giving him permission to say these things is true.
he doesn't seem to be having much of a problem with it these days and i think he's
testing the boundaries of what it's okay to say. He actually said the other day 'oh i
could pretend she's dead' which was a major shock!
i thought that was a bit extreme so gave my usual, say what you want, don't say it
because you think it's what we want to hear etc etc etc but like i said it think he's
just trying out the extremities of what he can say.
he's always been so secretive because they're a great family for withdrawing love. my
partner once said his mother in law was an expert too - and she'd even withdraw her
love if you didn't do the washing up! bio mom is the same and so my ss has always
been scared of saying anything bad about her because he thinks she will withdraw from
him. the sad thing is i can't tell him (although i do!) that she won't withdraw her
love if he says something that she doesn't like because that's exactly what she does
do!
of course, also he does blame himself for her problems and her abandoning him. We've
tried everything including telling him Princess Diana was abandoned by her mum at 6
and look what a lovely lady she turned out to be!
He recently had a big sobbing fit about his bio mom and he said 'i wish she wasn't my
mum, i wish you were nikki'. I told him that he should not feel guilty about that -
although she will make him feel that way as she does about me every time.
i in the meantime have the satisfaction of knowing (he's told me!) that he calls her
Nikki most of the time when he's with her cos that's what he's used to saying!
Thanks
Nikki
MFreund
Nikki Murphy wrote
(snip)
> When they lived together they wouldn't let go of each other in public. They
> were always declaring 'love you, love you' when saying goodbye (notice the lack
> of I). To the outside they were the closest mum and son you've ever seen.
> it was only after he moved in we realised the extent of the deception.
Oh, this hits home. We had a time when when BM started showing up at our church.
On occasion, we would let the girls go and sit with her. It was during this time
that BM would fawn all over the girls, kissing and cooing with them. This from
someone who would go months without a single visit. Sorry, under those
circumstances it was just revolting to witness.
I've got mixed feelings on this new thread because I think it varies from case to
case. In ours, I don't hesitate for a second to say that my SD's are far better off
without seeing BM. In fact, when BM started exercising her visitation again (after a
HUGE lapse .. how long, I forget, I lost count it was so long) both DH and I pleaded
with her to reconsider disrupting them. They were very happy. She wouldn't hear
it. Protested that these were her kids, that they needed her, couldn't possibly be
happy without her, blah, blah, blah. Needless to say, she exercised visitation for
all of 4 weeks and dropped out of sight nearly 8 weeks ago. Without a word and with
no explanation.
When you are dealing with BM's like this (and I won't go into any more details about
her; I still respect the fact that she gave birth to my SD's) the ramifications of
the rejection and abandonment the kids feel are tremendous. If you are able to
provide a stable and loving environment where they can heal and learn to forgive,
why would you want to expose them to it again? I mean, why *force* the issue and
try to get a BM involved in these kids lives? Only to set them up for
disappointment and rejection? No, not for me. Thank you. In our case, we've seen
more fruit and change in their lives by consistently showing them love. We don't
make any excuses for BM. We don't "dog" her either, but we do not pursue her. The
SD's are better for it.
As to the potential of fantasy I think that telling the truth to a child about
circumstance can greatly reduce that. Now, I will readily admit that is not an easy
thing to do. We all know that the truth often hurts. Maybe over a period of time,
but still the truth is important. Help them to deal with the truth and recognize
that they are not to blame for a parent's failure.
Vicki Robinson
>When you are dealing with BM's like this (and I won't go into any more
>details about her; I still respect the fact that she gave birth to
>my SD's) the ramifications of the rejection and abandonment the kids
>feel are tremendous. If you are able to provide a stable and loving
>environment where they can heal and learn to forgive, why would you
>want to expose them to it again? I mean, why *force* the issue and
>try to get a BM involved in these kids lives? Only to set them up
>for disappointment and rejection? No, not for me. Thank you. In our
>case, we've seen more fruit and change in their lives by consistently
>showing them love. We don't make any excuses for BM. We don't "dog"
>her either, but we do not pursue her. The SD's are better for it.
Yet another scenario. I think up to now I've been thinking about kids
whose disturbed bioparents are still in their lives, and who want to
see their kids, however unable they are to be parents to them. I
guess that a parent who abandons his or her kids may be a different
story. You're right, you can't *force* the missing parent to come
back and act like a responsible person. In that case, I think it
might be better to leave it alone. Kids whose parents are still in
their lives on a regular basis aren't wrestling with the physical
abandonment issues that your kids are, although the emotional ones
might be just as great.
If your ill bioparent was capable of showing up for regular
visitation, but everything else was the same, would you want the kids
to see her?
Nikki Murphy
reason that we do it at all is because my SS says he does want to see her
but his response before and after seeing her is so extreme that we can't
imagine he's going to continue with it once he has the power to say
'actually mom i'm not having a good time!'.
He is only 9 after all. However he seems to only want to see her to
reassure himself that she still exists - we had an agreement that he was
seeing her every two months for a weekend (we have to insists on minimal
influence - i'll explain why) and he certainly doesn't want to see her more
than that. In fact he says the only reason he enjoys it at all is because
he gets to choose exactly what activities they do all weekend.
She was seeing him once a month. However, we found that my SS would get
very distressed and depressed at least a week before the visit, culminating
in a violent temper tantrum the night before.
He then spends the weekend, comes back full of the old manipulation (you
know, infantilisation and general baby behaviour) she's all full of herself
and then the minute she goes he's sobbing (not cos she's gone he's quite
happy about that) and his depression then continues for about two weeks
until he settles down again.
To give you some examples of the things that she does:
Refuses to acknowledge that she abandoned him - it wasn't her fault because
she was 'ill'.
Will not accept me and attempts to make my SS feel bad for being close to
me at every opportunity.
Cheats when playing games with him - she can't allow anyone to win but
herself
Gangs up with her husband on my SS when playing games
Other things: we all went for lunch one day and my SS had a free game with
his lunch - one of those puzzles with squares that make up a picture - you
have to slide the squares around. My SS couldn't do it at first so I said
keep trying. He went with bio mom to the swings and came back with the
puzzle done. We initially said well done but could tell from the look on
their faces that something was up. My SS said 'oh mum thought it would be
funny to take it apart and put it back together again'. I said to her 'you
shouldn't have done that - it's teaching him how to cheat' and said to my
SS 'do it again properly and then I'll tell you how clever you are but not
when you've cheated.' Even the bio mom's husband said 'hang on a minute'.
We were appalled.
Another one: she was measuring how tall my SS was against herself and
commented he comes up to her chin. She hadn't seen him for two months and
you know when kids are standing next to you and they realise that you're
close and they incline their head so you'll pull them in for a hug? Well
he did that - she noticed - and patted him on the head. The poor little
love was obviously dying for some affection from her and she couldn't even
find her maternal instinct enough to pull him close. He came and talked to
me instead! But that's an aside.
The sort of behaviour that we see when she is due a visit or afterwards is
one of a child in depression. He referts to many old control patterns very
well taught by her - so he starts refusing to eat certain things, sneakily
stops cleaning his teeth, making his bed etc. He becomes disruptive and
upset at any single request to do the tiniest thing. He lies about even
silly things constantly. He loses interest in school and homework.
Basically anything and everything turns into either tears and upset or a
violent temper tantrum. These tantrums include him trying to push me down
the stairs, hitting me, trying to break down doors with his body, throwing
over chairs, throwing objects, slamming doors, kicking the TV, breaking a
pane in the front door.... I could go on.
The bio mom managed to saddle herself with a boyfriend who beat her up
after she left my partner. She took my SS to the States for a couple of
years so my partner was pretty powerless. My SS saw his Mom beaten up on
several occasions so he's learned some great victim behaviour.
For example, we have occasionally smacked him, but nothing, nothing more
than that. However during a tantrum if you even walk towards him or
approach him in any way he cowers on the floor with his head bent and
clasps his knees as if expecting a blow. He taunts you with sentences I
hope all of you never hear a child say like 'come on, i know you're going
to do it, why don't you just get it over with?'.
She behaves as if he is her boyfriend. It's sick - but she is very
jealous. Last year she phoned him on his birthday which was the day before
a party we were having for him. I overhead the conversation as he was sat
on my knee. We had jointly purchased a new bike for him with her. It went:
her: Are you having a nice birthday?
him: (excited) Yes, I got this and this and that and the other and this
talking watch and so it's ace!
her: Oh. (uninterested) Who bought you that then?
him. Caroline.
her: Oh. Did you get your bike?
him: Yes
her: Did Dad and Nikki tell you we bought half of it as well?
him: yes it was the first thing they said.
her: Good. did you get my card?
him. Yes
her: Did you get the card from my brother?
him. Yes
her: Did you get the card from my Mom?
him: Yes.
her. Ok. Well don't worry darling you'll see us on Sunday.
him: yes i know
her: ok see you then, love you, bye!
Huh?!?!?!?! She was jealous at everything that wasn't to do with her, was
totally uninterested in talking about anything that was going to happen -
party etc - and directed the entire conversation around what her family had
sent him. Then she's got the nerve to say 'don't worry' at the end! He's
having a party with about 30 people the following day - the best party he's
ever had (or so we heard later) with food and games (we'd just moved into
our new house so he was showing that off too). So right - he's going to
have a crap time until he sees her on Sunday!
So in short, she is uninterested in his life or any interests that he has
or friends or school. The only thing she talks about is things that
happened in his past - which let's face it don't exactly bring up happy
memories for him. She gives him NO maternal love, physically or any other
way, no support and only is involved in the relationship because it gives
her chance to feel like a mother.
I mean this is a little boy who i was talking to recently about when we
went to court when we got custody of him. i said that his mum didn't go to
court and that's why he came to live with us. he said - i'm glad she
didn't turn up.
I could almost cry thinking about all of this. She causes him the most
intolerable emotional pain which he takes out emotionally and physically.
The bigger he is the more violent his tantrums become and he's getting into
danger of really hurting himself. The anger he feels is so great that any
other anger management that we've tried just doesn't seem to do the trick.
It is any wonder I'd rather that she just pissed off and left us to it?
Oh BTW - he doesn't display ANY and I mean ANY of this behaviour when she
isn't around.
Nikki
Vicki Robinson wrote:
> If your ill bioparent was capable of showing up for regular
> visitation, but everything else was the same, would you want the kids
> to see her?
>
MFreund
Vicki Robinson wrote:
(snip)
> If your ill bioparent was capable of showing up for regular
> visitation, but everything else was the same, would you want the kids
> to see her?
Do you mean (not playing stupid here, just wasn't sure if I understood
correctly) if the bio-parent were ill, but capable of visiting and not
doing so, would I as a step pursue it on my step kids behalf? I think my
answer would depend upon what kind of illness we were dealing with and how
it affected the children. A schizophrenic? A substance abuser? A physical
ailment?
Did I understand you?
Vicki Robinson
>
>(snip)
>
>> If your ill bioparent was capable of showing up for regular
>> visitation, but everything else was the same, would you want the kids
>> to see her?
>
>Do you mean (not playing stupid here, just wasn't sure if I understood
>correctly) if the bio-parent were ill, but capable of visiting and not
>doing so, would I as a step pursue it on my step kids behalf? I think my
>answer would depend upon what kind of illness we were dealing with and how
>it affected the children. A schizophrenic? A substance abuser? A physical
>ailment?
>
>Did I understand you?
Heh. I don't know anymore; the original post has expired from my
server!
However, to the best of my recollection, the post I was responding to
dealt with a mentally ill biomom who blew into and out of her kids'
lives, jerking them around with the emotional turmoil that goes with
repeated abandonments and the difficulties of dealing with a mentally
ill parent. I believe my question was whether or not it was the
mental illness that was worst for those kids, or the repeated
abandonments. I think that the poster had said that she wished that
the mom would just disappear for good, because her presence was so
disruptive, and I was wondering what the source of the disruption was;
the fact that she was incapable of being a mother to her kids, or the
fact that she couldn't stay in their lives. I wondered if one of
those things was reversed, if she *was* capable of sticking to a
parenting schedule and did so, would she then be wanted in the kids'
lives, even with her mental illness?
I'll have to go over to my other ISP and see if they have the original
post still on the spool!
MFreund
some reason just couldn't *get* it. I read it today, and shazam! ... it made
sense. My brain was AWOL yesterday :-)