I really hate it when....
Amy Lou
parenting decisions. How do others cope when faced with not one opponent in
a disagreement but several?
This one is over my decision to stop nagging 16y/o about homework. I want to
see if he can complete his homework and hand it in on time without our help.
I think at 16 its fair to want to organise one's homework schedule oneself
rather than doing it how ones parents want it done.
Amy
The Watsons
"Amy Lou" <amyl...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:G8N5c.106672$Wa.3...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> my DH goes to his friends/relatives to get backup when he's against my
> parenting decisions. How do others cope when faced with not one opponent
in
> a disagreement but several?
don't talk to the others 'bout it-you're not required to justify/otherwise
explain yourself to everyone else....and me being snarky, i'd prolly stop
trying to do any parenting, and when he asks why, make some comment 'bout
"well, it seems like you didn't want my advice because you went asking
everyone else, so i thought i'd stop trying something you didn't like"....
of course, i might change my opinion after i've eaten-just got through
painting a room...:D
Jess
Amy Lou
"The Watsons" <warped...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:9nN5c.19095$Nj.1439@fed1read01...
>
> "Amy Lou" <amyl...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:G8N5c.106672$Wa.3...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > my DH goes to his friends/relatives to get backup when he's against my
> > parenting decisions. How do others cope when faced with not one opponent
> in
> > a disagreement but several?
>
> don't talk to the others 'bout it-you're not required to justify/otherwise
> explain yourself to everyone else....
I don't think anyone would be so presumptuous as to actually come and talk
to me about my parenting decisions. DH goes to them to get them on side so
he can say to me "look you are the only one who seems to think this is a
good idea so therefore you must be wrong".
Amy
The Watsons
> I don't think anyone would be so presumptuous as to actually come and talk
> to me about my parenting decisions. DH goes to them to get them on side
so
> he can say to me "look you are the only one who seems to think this is a
> good idea so therefore you must be wrong".
*snerks*
"i didn't marry everyone else, i married you, and i care what *you*
think"....:D
Jess
WhansaMi
Are you angry because he tells them stuff? Or because he then comes back and
tells you want they said?
I'm an extrovert. I think by talking. My DH knows that I am likely to process
stuff by talking to others. So, it is not uncommon for me to talk to my
friends about any issue that may arise (and I did -- A LOT -- when the girls
were still young!). My DH knew this about me coming into the marriage; I used
to say that I was deeply into promiscuous disclosure. It was part of what he
signed up for when we married. :-)
I also think that your DH, in your circumstance, probably feels like he needs
support because he doesn't have any control over the parenting decisions with
your son. You know I've said I couldn't live in a house --- as an adult with a
spouse with kids -- and have no parenting authority, so I can imagine how he
feels. I'm sure it rubs your DH the wrong way. If nothing else, kvetching is
the only power he has. He probably needs to vent to someone, and given that he
has no power to make the decisions WRT your son, the only way he can have his
opinion validated is by having others agree with him.
Now, I do think there is a danger in complaining about your spouse to the
family --- while you may kiss and make-up, the family may still be pissed off.
So, I don't generally tell my family about disagreements with DH, even at the
height of problems with the girls.
If what bothers you is that he then comes back and says, "Well, Sister says..."
<shrug> I guess I've always been strong enough in my convictions to say,
"Hell, do I look like I care what Sister says?" Somehow, I suspect you are
too.
Sheila
Amy Lou
"WhansaMi" <whan...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040316223831...@mb-m23.aol.com...
> >my DH goes to his friends/relatives to get backup when he's against my
> >parenting decisions. How do others cope when faced with not one opponent
in
> >a disagreement but several?
> >
> >This one is over my decision to stop nagging 16y/o about homework. I want
to
> >see if he can complete his homework and hand it in on time without our
help.
> >I think at 16 its fair to want to organise one's homework schedule
oneself
> >rather than doing it how ones parents want it done.
> >
> >Amy
> >
>
> Are you angry because he tells them stuff? Or because he then comes back
and
> tells you want they said?
I am annoyed that he criticises me to his friends/family and that he gets
them to agree with him so he can pound me with not only him being 'right'
but others as well.
>
> I'm an extrovert. I think by talking. My DH knows that I am likely to
process
> stuff by talking to others. So, it is not uncommon for me to talk to my
> friends about any issue that may arise (and I did -- A LOT -- when the
girls
> were still young!). My DH knew this about me coming into the marriage; I
used
> to say that I was deeply into promiscuous disclosure. It was part of what
he
> signed up for when we married. :-)
Ah! This helps to explain things. DH is an extrovert too whereas I am not.
I like to get input anonymously hense my love of newsgroups. :)
>
> I also think that your DH, in your circumstance, probably feels like he
needs
> support because he doesn't have any control over the parenting decisions
with
> your son. You know I've said I couldn't live in a house --- as an adult
with a
> spouse with kids -- and have no parenting authority, so I can imagine how
he
> feels. I'm sure it rubs your DH the wrong way. If nothing else,
kvetching is
> the only power he has. He probably needs to vent to someone, and given
that he
> has no power to make the decisions WRT your son, the only way he can have
his
> opinion validated is by having others agree with him.
Good point. I should be more understanding. Poor man.
>
> Now, I do think there is a danger in complaining about your spouse to the
> family --- while you may kiss and make-up, the family may still be pissed
off.
> So, I don't generally tell my family about disagreements with DH, even at
the
> height of problems with the girls.
Thats how I see it too. I went through some really tough times with DH in
the past but I did not want to involve family or friends. At one stage I did
tell my brother that my marriage had been through a rough patch but that was
after the fact and I only brought it up because he was having marriage
trouble himself and I thought it would help him to know that he wasn't the
only one, you know?
>
> If what bothers you is that he then comes back and says, "Well, Sister
says..."
> <shrug> I guess I've always been strong enough in my convictions to say,
> "Hell, do I look like I care what Sister says?" Somehow, I suspect you
are
> too.
Yes I am to a degree but it still annoys me that his Sister (hey how did you
know?) will be secretly thinking what a dummie I am for choosing to do
something that she and her bro think is so wrong.
As a matter of fact I have got some really good advice (on another ng) on
how to encourage my son to do his homework without nagging and I'm going to
give it a try. The thing with DH disagreeing with me and doing his darndest
to get me to see that I am wrong and he is right is that he has completely
lost out (once again I might add) in helping me to find the right path. He
gets so involved in just trying to get me to agree with his opinion that I
end up finding out a solution to my problem without his input.
It would be so much better if he could help me find solutions to problems
without making it into a competition - "my way or your way" - you know? I
mean why can't he work with me instead of against me? And you know (Im
totally rambling now) this is the exact same problem I was having with my
son and his homework. I want to support him and encourage him in his efforts
to study. I don't just want to tell him he is wrong and make him to do
things my way.
Thanks.
Amy
Kathy Cole
wrote:
> It would be so much better if he could help me find solutions to problems
> without making it into a competition - "my way or your way" - you know? I
> mean why can't he work with me instead of against me? And you know (Im
> totally rambling now) this is the exact same problem I was having with my
> son and his homework. I want to support him and encourage him in his efforts
> to study. I don't just want to tell him he is wrong and make him to do
> things my way.
What does he say when you tell him exactly this?
The Watsons
> I'm an extrovert. I think by talking. My DH knows that I am likely to
process
> stuff by talking to others. So, it is not uncommon for me to talk to my
> friends about any issue that may arise (and I did -- A LOT -- when the
girls
> were still young!). My DH knew this about me coming into the marriage; I
used
> to say that I was deeply into promiscuous disclosure. It was part of what
he
> signed up for when we married. :-)
"promiscous disclosure"? *snerks*
SO and i both think by talking things through, because we're both deeply
verbal people (gee, betcha didn't know That), but we came to an agreement a
while back that "dirty laundry" got washed here first, and then we took it
elsewhere if we were both really stumped...it's typically either mother or a
best friend, depending on what's going on....were i amy, i'd be getting
irritated that he's taking stuff elsewhere without clearing it with me
first, and then bringing it back to me...it'd be kinda like a slap, you
know? kind of like "i think so little of you that i don't even want to talk
it out with you", and i'm not sure which aspect would get me most-the fact
that he "slammed" me to someone else, or that he brought that person's
advice in when i didn't even know he'd asked...(g-d, i hope this making some
rational sense)
> I also think that your DH, in your circumstance, probably feels like he
needs
> support because he doesn't have any control over the parenting decisions
with
> your son. You know I've said I couldn't live in a house --- as an adult
with a
> spouse with kids -- and have no parenting authority, so I can imagine how
he
> feels. I'm sure it rubs your DH the wrong way. If nothing else,
kvetching is
> the only power he has. He probably needs to vent to someone, and given
that he
> has no power to make the decisions WRT your son, the only way he can have
his
> opinion validated is by having others agree with him.
not gonna argue that-if i live here, i will have parenting
authority....plain and simple...
> Now, I do think there is a danger in complaining about your spouse to the
> family --- while you may kiss and make-up, the family may still be pissed
off.
> So, I don't generally tell my family about disagreements with DH, even at
the
> height of problems with the girls.
and the spouse might be pissed, and the family might feel some need to
intercede and smooth things over and then it gets really nasty from there...
> If what bothers you is that he then comes back and says, "Well, Sister
says..."
> <shrug> I guess I've always been strong enough in my convictions to say,
> "Hell, do I look like I care what Sister says?" Somehow, I suspect you
are
> too.
i'm sure she is too, but she's gonna do it much more nicely than either of
us....;D
Jess
rebecca
>....were i amy, i'd be getting
> irritated that he's taking stuff elsewhere without clearing it with me
> first, and then bringing it back to me...it'd be kinda like a slap, you
> know? kind of like "i think so little of you that i don't even want to
talk
> it out with you", and i'm not sure which aspect would get me most-the fact
> that he "slammed" me to someone else, or that he brought that person's
> advice in when i didn't even know he'd asked...(g-d, i hope this making
some
> rational sense)
or it could be "after being smacked around for so many years by Amy, I know
she's completely uninterested in my opinion on _anything_, so it makes me
feel better to talk with someone who actually gives a shit what I think."
Amy, you can't have everything your way. It seems to me that you don't just
want him to completely stay out of parenting your son, you also want him to
agree with your approach 100% of the time. He's entitled to disagree. He's
entitled to discuss his disagreement with whoever the hell he wants. IMO,
your only legitimate gripe here is if he's sniping at you that other people
disagree with you too. And frankly, given that you really don't give a shit
about his opinion, I can understand why he's resorted to looking for
validation/agreement for his views from other people.
That being said, you have the right to do whatever you want about homework.
So just tell him you've made your decision and will doing it the way you've
decided. I think you're overreacting.
rebecca
The Watsons
"rebecca" <justre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:jf%5c.25891$%06....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> or it could be "after being smacked around for so many years by Amy, I
know
> she's completely uninterested in my opinion on _anything_, so it makes me
> feel better to talk with someone who actually gives a shit what I think."
that still doesn't make him right to be running to family to discuss every
dirty little gripe about his wife with...he needs to be discussing it with
his wife, and if he still doesn't feel like he's getting anywhere, then they
can take it to a counselor or to some other third party person they both
trust and agree on...there's a big difference between not knowing what to do
and just wanting to slam your wife to someone so you can use an outside
opinion in the next argument...
> Amy, you can't have everything your way. It seems to me that you don't
just
> want him to completely stay out of parenting your son, you also want him
to
> agree with your approach 100% of the time. He's entitled to disagree.
He's
> entitled to discuss his disagreement with whoever the hell he wants. IMO,
> your only legitimate gripe here is if he's sniping at you that other
people
> disagree with you too. And frankly, given that you really don't give a
shit
> about his opinion, I can understand why he's resorted to looking for
> validation/agreement for his views from other people.
ya know, if tim or SO were to have gone to someone else and bitched about my
parenting or our relationship without even Telling me first, i'dve gone
orbital...right to discuss an opinion-fine....right to talk about our
family/us to everyone else-not fine....grant our relationship the respect to
have Some privacy and give us the respect to work it out with each other
first...
Jess
rebecca
>
> ya know, if tim or SO were to have gone to someone else and bitched about
my
> parenting or our relationship without even Telling me first, i'dve gone
> orbital...right to discuss an opinion-fine....right to talk about our
> family/us to everyone else-not fine....grant our relationship the respect
to
> have Some privacy and give us the respect to work it out with each other
> first...
>
See, I feel like that's pretty controlling, trying to restrict a partner's
outside communications like that. You know, if I have a problem with SO
I'll discuss it with whomever I damn well please. Some people communicate
better once they've had the opportunity to sort out what they're thinking in
an unpressured way. Sure, if he's walking around telling everyone what a
bitch I am, that's disrespectful. But if he's seeking help in an approach,
or feedback about something that's bothering him, I don't care who he talks
to.
AND, if he's tried to talk to me, and it isn't going anywhere good, then
it's really not something I would complain about.
It all depends on how the outside communication is happening.
rebecca
Tracey
The Watsons wrote:
> "rebecca" <justre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:jf%5c.25891$%06....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>>or it could be "after being smacked around for so many years by Amy, I
> know she's completely uninterested in my opinion on _anything_, so it makes me
>>feel better to talk with someone who actually gives a shit what I think."
>
>
> that still doesn't make him right to be running to family to discuss every
> dirty little gripe about his wife with...
It doesn't? I'll admit, since my sister passed, none of my family knows
much about my marriage. They hold grudges and, even if I've gotten over
something, they will never. At the same time, when my sister was still
around, I talked to her quite often about things. And if my other family
members weren't such grudge-holders, I wouldn't block myself off from
them as a source of support or just listening posts.
>he needs to be discussing it with
> his wife, and if he still doesn't feel like he's getting anywhere, then they
> can take it to a counselor or to some other third party person they both
> trust and agree on...
But they have discussed it in the past and they have went to counselors.
Look, I'm more in Amy's husband position in that discussing an issue
concerning my stepkids with my husband was nothing more than an exer-
cise in frustration. Discussing a situation, offering your opinions,
and NEVER having your opinions matter one little bit on what the ulti-
mate outcome makes for crazy-making. It's lip-service parenting at it's
worse. Talking about it when there wasn't an issue, talking about it
with counselors, talking about it during and after the issue is re-
solved didn't change my husband's actions and isn't going to change
Amy's, IMO. What is left to do but talk to someone who is going to
be sympathetic?
>there's a big difference between not knowing what to do
> and just wanting to slam your wife to someone so you can use an outside
> opinion in the next argument...
Well, that part I don't agree with. I don't ever remember bringing
in outside opinions to bolster my stance (unless they were from
'neutral' people like authors of books on parenting/stepparenting.)
> ya know, if tim or SO were to have gone to someone else and bitched about my
> parenting or our relationship without even Telling me first, i'dve gone
> orbital...right to discuss an opinion-fine....right to talk about our
> family/us to everyone else-not fine....grant our relationship the respect to
> have Some privacy and give us the respect to work it out with each other
> first...
But, where did you see that he hadn't talked to Amy first? Or, in my
situation, I've totally given up on discussing these things with my
husband at all (except for the 'SS wants to move in with us' issue
and that's because that effected me immediately and very up-close-
and-personally) *because it doesn't matter one whit what I say.*
Tracey
The Watsons
> See, I feel like that's pretty controlling, trying to restrict a partner's
> outside communications like that. You know, if I have a problem with SO
> I'll discuss it with whomever I damn well please. Some people communicate
> better once they've had the opportunity to sort out what they're thinking
in
> an unpressured way. Sure, if he's walking around telling everyone what a
> bitch I am, that's disrespectful. But if he's seeking help in an
approach,
> or feedback about something that's bothering him, I don't care who he
talks
> to.
i'd feel pretty insulted/embarrassed if he went to someone else with a
complaint about me or our relationship, and didn't even talk to me
first...it's not everyone else's relationship, it's ours...if he wants
feedback about something, he needs to have the respect for our relationship
to approach me first...if he needs advice, he needs to at least give me the
courtesy of telling me he's discussing our relationship with someone
else....and to make it perfectly clear, he's told me After he's talked to
his mother about something, and it didn't phase me at all....we sat down,
hashed it out again with her input factored in, and went our merry way...i
don't Care if he needs advice (hell, i know i ain't perfect), and if he
feels the need to ask a mom about it, fine-i just want to know and he can't
go below the belt...
> AND, if he's tried to talk to me, and it isn't going anywhere good, then
> it's really not something I would complain about.
even still, you don't pull in everyone else into an argument to get someone
to cave-that's below the belt...in the end, i don't really care what moms
think or our best friend thinks, i care what He thinks-i sleep next to him
at night, and it's his opinion that matters most to me...
> It all depends on how the outside communication is happening.
to an extent, yes....but i still don't think it's cool to go running to
everyone else to get some backup against your spouse/partner in an
argument...
Jess
Deborah M Riel
rebecca <justre...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>See, I feel like that's pretty controlling, trying to restrict a partner's
>outside communications like that. You know, if I have a problem with SO
>I'll discuss it with whomever I damn well please. Some people communicate
>better once they've had the opportunity to sort out what they're thinking in
>an unpressured way. Sure, if he's walking around telling everyone what a
>bitch I am, that's disrespectful. But if he's seeking help in an approach,
>or feedback about something that's bothering him, I don't care who he talks
>to.
I agree to a point. Personally, I'm of the camp that'll talk to
people to try to sort things out. The big problem I see here is,
Amy's DH, after talking it out with his friends and family, then comes back
and tells Amy about all those people who agree with him. It just sets
up the potential for bad feelings among Amy, her DH and others who probably
didn't ask to become involved in that way. When you drag other people into
your disagreements it becomes so messy. Problems are created that never
had to exist in the first place, and sometimes can't be fixed. People
get their defenses up, alliances are formed, and the original problem
takes a back seat. It's one thing to talk things out with your
friends and family to work out your own solutions, but another thing
altogether to use those conversations to form a bloc against your
spouse.
Deb R.
rebecca
"Deborah M Riel" <dr...@wpi.edu> wrote in message
news:c3a3jv$2ur5$1...@bigboote.WPI.EDU...
>
> I agree to a point. Personally, I'm of the camp that'll talk to
> people to try to sort things out. The big problem I see here is,
> Amy's DH, after talking it out with his friends and family, then comes
back
> and tells Amy about all those people who agree with him.
Right, which is why I said in my first post that *that* is her legitimate
gripe. Jess was then saying she didn't think it was okay for Amy's DH to
talk to others about their relationship, which I feel is a controlling
strategy used by some people (not saying Amy, just a general "some people")
to limit their partner's communications when they find them unpleasant.
At the same time, I think it's possible that Amy's DH is bringing in other
opinions because he feels that his own is so worthless to Amy. He _knows_
that she doesn't feel his opinion has any weight/merit with her, and that's
such a powerless/worthless/demeaning feeling, I can understand why he feels
like he needs allies.
Personally, back to the original problem, I don't know why he feels the need
to get involved in something like homework of a 16yo at all. I'm an
involved stepparent, with parental authority, and I probably wouldn't feel
the need to go there unless I had other worries going on. But that's just
me.
rebecca
Tracey
rebecca wrote:
> See, I feel like that's pretty controlling, trying to restrict a partner's
> outside communications like that. You know, if I have a problem with SO
> I'll discuss it with whomever I damn well please. Some people communicate
> better once they've had the opportunity to sort out what they're thinking in
> an unpressured way. Sure, if he's walking around telling everyone what a
> bitch I am, that's disrespectful. But if he's seeking help in an approach,
> or feedback about something that's bothering him, I don't care who he talks
> to.
Like, a newsgroup? <grin>
I am slow when it comes to figuring out the reasoning behind how I
feel. I know how I feel or what I think is the right approach to
something, but all of the stuff going on behind it? That takes time.
Time and talking it out usually. If I'm left with no one to talk
something out with and have to depend on my own gut reactions to
something, I'm probably gonna screw it up by making statements
that harm the process rather than help it.
What I find interesting about the whole 'talking things out with
a third party' is that a lot of people will automatically go to
people who will 'There, there. You are right, they're wrong' them
all the time. Myself, I tend to go to people who I'm pretty sure
*won't* spend their time saying I'm right. Dammit, I *know* I'm
right. I want someone who thinks I'm wrong or at least isn't
shy about telling me when I AM wrong.
> AND, if he's tried to talk to me, and it isn't going anywhere good, then
> it's really not something I would complain about.
Or, as in my case, I tried talking things out for a couple of years
and it was only making things worse. When you tell someone straight
out that the fact that *not once* have they modified what they wanted
to do due to an opinion that you had, even when they agreed with that
opinion, makes you feel disrespected and like a non-entity in the
relationship and the next 2 or 3 or 10 times something similar comes
up, they've done it again and again, well, you stop talking to them
about those issues. You can't feel disrespected or ignored when you
haven't given an opinion.
Tracey
Tracey
rebecca wrote:
> Personally, back to the original problem, I don't know why he feels the need
> to get involved in something like homework of a 16yo at all. I'm an
> involved stepparent, with parental authority, and I probably wouldn't feel
> the need to go there unless I had other worries going on. But that's just
> me.
Oh, yeah, FWIW, I'm with Amy on the letting the 16yo handle their
own homework. Our son is 16, too, will be starting college (crosses
fingers) in the fall of 2005 and, even though he's probably going to
be living at home at least for the first year or two, I'm not going
to continue to monitor him and his homework. He has to learn *some-
time* how to manage his own time and me standing over him saying 'Okay,
you start your homework half an hour after you get home' isn't
teaching him that, IMO.
Tracey
Deborah M Riel
rebecca <justre...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>At the same time, I think it's possible that Amy's DH is bringing in other
>opinions because he feels that his own is so worthless to Amy. He _knows_
>that she doesn't feel his opinion has any weight/merit with her, and that's
>such a powerless/worthless/demeaning feeling, I can understand why he feels
>like he needs allies.
I kind of get the feeling from Amy's past posts that that's on ongoing
marital problem on *both* sides--that neither one of them feels heard
or respected by the other, especially regarding Amy's son.
Deb R.
The Watsons
> Right, which is why I said in my first post that *that* is her legitimate
> gripe. Jess was then saying she didn't think it was okay for Amy's DH to
> talk to others about their relationship, which I feel is a controlling
> strategy used by some people (not saying Amy, just a general "some
people")
> to limit their partner's communications when they find them unpleasant.
all right, lemme clarify: it is Not ok for one's partner to go to everyone
else to get a general consensus to force you into doing/feeling something,
and i don't feel it's ok to go talking about the relationship without at
least giving the partner a heads up....i think that's a major violation of
the respect/privacy/consideration that should be present in a
relationship....is it ok to seek advice from someone? absolutely...
do i care if mike talks to his mother and gets advice? not really, i just
wanna know he's talking about relationship with her, and it's been as simple
as "i've got something i'm working on, and i'm calling mom", and i've
shrugged and finished dinner...would i care if mike talked to his mother
because he wanted to make me Do something and wanted to use his mother's
opinion to browbeat me into doing it? you betcha, and that's what i see
going on with Amy and her DH...
> At the same time, I think it's possible that Amy's DH is bringing in other
> opinions because he feels that his own is so worthless to Amy. He _knows_
> that she doesn't feel his opinion has any weight/merit with her, and
that's
> such a powerless/worthless/demeaning feeling, I can understand why he
feels
> like he needs allies.
then if he feels powerless/worthless/demeaned in the relationship, he needs
to address that with Amy, instead of running around to everyone else to form
this "alliance" deal against Amy-the only That's going to accomplish is hard
feelings all the way around, and it's just as likely to cause Amy to feel
the same way, and that is most definently counterproductive: if i feel
worthless, i'm Really not gonna be inclined to listen to you...and just
because he feels that way doesn't make it fine for him to try and make her
feel the same...if they can't work it out, then that's a whole 'nother ball
of wax...
Jess
Vicki Robinson
>then if he feels powerless/worthless/demeaned in the relationship, he needs
>to address that with Amy,
Heh. Here's the short version of how that worked in my life:
Me: "I feel powerless/worthless/demeaned in this relationship."
1st Husband: "Well, you're wrong."
Me: "See, that's what I mean."
1st Husband: "You're not powerless/worthless/demeaned in the
relationship, and you shouldn't feel that way."
And that was that.
I absolutely think that a feeling like that should be brought up, but
feelings like that come from having a partner who denies what you're
feeling.
Vicki
--
Just to think I used to worry about things like that.
Used to worry 'bout rich and skinny
'til I wound up poor and fat.
-Delbert McClinton
filipic...@osu.edu
"rebecca" <justre...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> or it could be "after being smacked around for so many years by Amy, I know
> she's completely uninterested in my opinion on _anything_, so it makes me
> feel better to talk with someone who actually gives a shit what I think."
>
whew, that's harsh.
> Amy, you can't have everything your way. It seems to me that you don't just
> want him to completely stay out of parenting your son, you also want him to
> agree with your approach 100% of the time. He's entitled to disagree. He's
> entitled to discuss his disagreement with whoever the hell he wants. IMO,
> your only legitimate gripe here is if he's sniping at you that other people
> disagree with you too.
That's exactly what seems to be happening, from Amy's original post.
Here's my take: Amy is tired of nagging her 16 year old son to do his
homework. She has decided he's old enough to make homework decisions
himself -- and bear the consequences of those decisions. (And to an
extent, I agree.) DH thinks Amy's change of parenting style is stupid. He
tries to get her to change her mind, but Amy stands her ground. So DH
talks to his sister and possibly other family/friends, and comes back and
tells Amy "everyone agrees with me" and again tries to get her to change
her mind. I think it's perfectly understandable for Amy to be upset about
this.
And frankly, given that you really don't give a shit
> about his opinion, I can understand why he's resorted to looking for
> validation/agreement for his views from other people.
>
Well, maybe. But he sure doesn't have to try to strongarm Amy into
changing her position because of it. Why does this have to be a fight?
> That being said, you have the right to do whatever you want about homework.
> So just tell him you've made your decision and will doing it the way you've
> decided.
This is good advice, but I think it will be hard for Amy to hear after
your harsh words.
Martha
badgirl
"Vicki Robinson" <vjr...@xcski.com> wrote in message
news:c3a69i$o6a$1...@allhats.xcski.com...
> In a previous article, "The Watsons" <warped...@earthlink.net>
said:
>
> >then if he feels powerless/worthless/demeaned in the relationship,
he needs
> >to address that with Amy,
>
> Heh. Here's the short version of how that worked in my life:
>
> Me: "I feel powerless/worthless/demeaned in this relationship."
>
> 1st Husband: "Well, you're wrong."
>
> Me: "See, that's what I mean."
>
> 1st Husband: "You're not powerless/worthless/demeaned in the
> relationship, and you shouldn't feel that way."
>
> And that was that.
>
> I absolutely think that a feeling like that should be brought up,
but
> feelings like that come from having a partner who denies what you're
> feeling.
>
> Vicki
> --
This right here is exactly what my kiddo is going through with her BM.
It started in May last year when she had an opinion that BM didn't
agree with and has snowballed from there into Tootsie refusing to go
on her weekend visitation (since August and then again in October and
not been on a visit since then)
Not that BM has tried to pick her up mind you, she barely tries to
contact her at minimum and ends up causing more problems when she
does. So, Steph digs her heals in and refuses visits even harder.
BM has called exactly 4 times since October trying to talk to Steph
about it and every time she ended up screaming at Steph over the
phone....the same kind of conversation as I quoted above. The "I don't
care what you say/feel/think" is obnoxiously apparent in her actions
it's not even funny.
She feels completely invalidated by her BM, like her feelings and
thoughts aren't relevant or important. At 12YO she is at a point in
her life (I feel) where she needs to start feeling heard and listened
to instead of *dictated* to like a younger child would be.
Of course BM doesn't give a shit and has shown especially over the
last almost year now that all she really cares about is not having to
send the CS check.
It's sad really, because Steph sees it for exactly what it is and is
really pissed off over it. As long as she doesn't have to pay CS then
she doesn't care if she picks Steph up or not.
We finally went yesterday to court over it, was just the first court
date, nothing major. The judge looked at the parenting agreement and
basically blew BM off completely...you didn't follow the agreement,
why are you in front of me wasting my time. While our atty was there
he filed a rule to show cause for the delinquent CS and we'll go see
the judge again on April 5th. Somehow I don't think BM is gonna get
her way with this judge. The last one was useless and gave her what
she wanted every time she went (because she is one of those that
thinks the mother should have custody in every case regardless of
circumstances) This one (from what our atty tells us) doesn't work
like that, he looks at things objectively and makes his decisions from
there.
*sigh*
We'll see how it all turns out. With a little luck BM will relinquish
her rights so she doesn't have to pay CS anymore (which is what she
wants, she's said it a few times to us) and we can be on our merry
way.
Jen
*just pondering today*
rebecca
<filipic...@osu.edu> wrote in message
news:filipic.3nospam-...@dhcp35-239.ag.ohio-state.edu...
> In article <jf%5c.25891$%06....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> "rebecca" <justre...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > or it could be "after being smacked around for so many years by Amy, I
know
> > she's completely uninterested in my opinion on _anything_, so it makes
me
> > feel better to talk with someone who actually gives a shit what I
think."
> >
>
> whew, that's harsh.
Hi Martha,
Yeah I know. And she doesn't read me anyway, I tried not to even respond,
but I lack self-control (-:. Over the years, Amy's wide-eyed "oh, my
husband is so mean and I just don't understand why" really grates on my
nerves. She knows exactly why he's the way he is, and he knows why she is
the way she is, and they just keep having the same fight over and over and
over and over...
But thanks for so gently reminding me to be warmer and fuzzier. I shall
try.
rebecca
Kathy Cole
wrote:
> I confess, he caught an IM from Robotti the other day, and he says "Do you
> even KNOW these people? How do you know this 'woman' isn't an 80yo pervert
> getting a cheap thrill?
What, you mean she's not?
Kathy Cole
> In article <jf%5c.25891$%06....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> "rebecca" <justre...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > or it could be "after being smacked around for so many years by Amy,
> > I know she's completely uninterested in my opinion on _anything_, so
> > it makes me feel better to talk with someone who actually gives a
> > shit what I think."
>
> whew, that's harsh.
In all honesty, given what Amy's posted over the years about her and her
husband's relationship, I wouldn't be surprised if it's accurate.
I agree with those who suggested the main problem is not that he vented
to others, but that he brought the others' opinions back to Amy. He
should have kept his mouth shut to Amy.
WhansaMi
Both of my kids (at 13 and 14) handle their own homework so I wouldn't
disagree, but I don't see that as the problem here --only the occasion for the
it. I think the overriding problem is that Amy's husband doesn't have any
power with regard to her son, he resents that, and the only place he has to go
to talk about it is outside the relationship.
Sheila
rebecca
>
> Both of my kids (at 13 and 14) handle their own homework so I wouldn't
> disagree, but I don't see that as the problem here --only the occasion for
the
> it. I think the overriding problem is that Amy's husband doesn't have any
> power with regard to her son, he resents that, and the only place he has
to go
> to talk about it is outside the relationship.
>
> Sheila
(I can't resist)
Sheila,
I totally, 100%, completely and fully agree with you. I think you are
completely right.
Please write down the date and time, and save it for the next time I piss
you off.
(-:
rebecca
WhansaMi
>> disagree, but I don't see that as the problem here --only the occasion for
>the
>> it. I think the overriding problem is that Amy's husband doesn't have any
>> power with regard to her son, he resents that, and the only place he has
>to go
>> to talk about it is outside the relationship.
>>
>> Sheila
>
>(I can't resist)
>
>Sheila,
>
>I totally, 100%, completely and fully agree with you. I think you are
>completely right.
>Please write down the date and time, and save it for the next time I piss
>you off.
>(-:
>
>rebecca
Rebecca, actually, I don't find that you and I consistently disagree (of
course, that is only my perspective, and I could be totally wrong!). And, you
rarely piss me off. :-)
Sheila
Amy Lou
Sheila and Rebecca
To have someone else agree with his opinion when I don't obviously gives him
a boost. If you are saying I should be more understanding of his need to get
backup then, yes, perhaps I should. Still, that doesnt make it any easier to
deal with the humiliation and embarrassment of knowing that Sis disagrees
with my decision.
Amy
Deborah M Riel
Amy Lou <amyl...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>To have someone else agree with his opinion when I don't obviously gives him
>a boost. If you are saying I should be more understanding of his need to get
>backup then, yes, perhaps I should. Still, that doesnt make it any easier to
>deal with the humiliation and embarrassment of knowing that Sis disagrees
>with my decision.
>
>Amy
Amy, why are you humiliated and embarrassed that his sister disagrees
with your opinion about your parenting decisions with your son? As a
parent of a very headstrong child with ADHD and an LD, I faced
boatloads of disagreement about my parenting decisions, and still do.
It's remarkable how many people who don't raise my son know exactly
how it *should* be done. Sometimes it pisses me off, but I'm not
going to waste my energy on embarrassed and humiliated.
Maybe you and your DH can pick up some books on parenting teens, read
them together, and discuss the points. It might be one way to get you
on the same page (so to speak).
Deb R.
Deb R.
>
>
>
The Watsons
"Amy Lou" <amyl...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:aSg6c.109723$Wa.8...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> To have someone else agree with his opinion when I don't obviously gives
him
> a boost. If you are saying I should be more understanding of his need to
get
> backup then, yes, perhaps I should. Still, that doesnt make it any easier
to
> deal with the humiliation and embarrassment of knowing that Sis disagrees
> with my decision.
hmm...
have you asked him why he does this to begin with?
Jess
rebecca
"Amy Lou" <amyl...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:aSg6c.109723$Wa.8...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
>
> To have someone else agree with his opinion when I don't obviously gives
him
> a boost. If you are saying I should be more understanding of his need to
get
> backup then, yes, perhaps I should. Still, that doesnt make it any easier
to
> deal with the humiliation and embarrassment of knowing that Sis disagrees
> with my decision.
>
> Amy
Aw Amy,
Why do you care what anyone else thinks? Sis isn't raising your kid, _you_
are. And listen, as much as I get peeved about your relationship issues,
you've never posted anything about your kid to make me think that he's
anything but a good kid. And listen, if he's made it to 16 as a good kid,
then you should be giving yourself more credit than maybe you do.
Number 2, is your sister (in law?) raising this with you, or is your husband
just telling you she disagrees? Possible he's exaggerating to make you feel
that way?
rebecca
Kathleen
gives him
: a boost. If you are saying I should be more understanding of his
need to get
: backup then, yes, perhaps I should. Still, that doesnt make it any
easier to
: deal with the humiliation and embarrassment of knowing that Sis
disagrees
: with my decision.
:
: Amy
I guess if this were my situation, I would wonder if DH knows how
destructive this is to our marriage.
Is it Sis that disagrees, or is it that he discusses it with everyone
until he finds somone to agree with him? I understand the humiliation
and embarrassment, but I learned a really good cliche phrase for these
situations: "Your opinion of me is none of my business." I think you
have to teach yourself to *not* care what Sis thinks.
Just food for thought, YMMV, and all the other standard disclaimers.
With hope and heart,
Kathleen
The Watsons
"Amy Lou" <amyl...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:aSg6c.109723$Wa.8...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
embarrassment of knowing that Sis disagrees
> with my decision.
one of my favorite phrases is "put your nose on your face", or "who died and
made you g-d?"...they shut someone up pretty well...:D otherwise, let her
disagree-she's not the one raising your son....:) *Hugs*
Jess
Anne Robotti
wrote:
>Sheila and Rebecca
>
>To have someone else agree with his opinion when I don't obviously gives him
>a boost. If you are saying I should be more understanding of his need to get
>backup then, yes, perhaps I should. Still, that doesnt make it any easier to
>deal with the humiliation and embarrassment of knowing that Sis disagrees
>with my decision.
But really, is it the humiliation and embarassment of knowing Sis
disagrees, or knowing that she's talking about your marital issues to
her whole stupid family? This drives me BATSHIT when Chuck does it,
because he invariably tells the sister who hates me or the coworker
who barely knows me. At least my friends will tell me if I'm being a
giant bitch!
I think Sheila and Rebecca are saying that maybe you should examine
why he needs the boost in the first place. I finally got DH to
understand what he was doing when I stopped telling him things. And
then when he found out anyway I'd say, "I don't want to talk to you
about this. I don't want your mother and sister gossiping about it
behind my back." When he saw that it was creating a(nother) trust
issue between me and him, he seemed to get the message. At least now
when he does it he doesn't come back and tell me what they said, and
really that's all I care about.
Anne
WhansaMi
>
>To have someone else agree with his opinion when I don't obviously gives him
>a boost. If you are saying I should be more understanding of his need to get
>backup then, yes, perhaps I should. Still, that doesnt make it any easier to
>deal with the humiliation and embarrassment of knowing that Sis disagrees
>with my decision.
>
>Amy
Amy, I said it before, I'll say it again. Repeat after me:
"Do I LOOK like I care what Sister thinks??"
Seriously, I can understand why that would make you upset. When I discussed
this thread with my DH he allowed that he never liked me coming back to him
with what my friends, or the board, or *whoever* said. He accepted that I do
it, but he didn't like it.
As he and I talked about it last night, I realized that part of what kept me
sane during the worst of the time with the girls was having people say, "No, it
really is okay that this is making you nuts. This is screwy. Vent, if you
need to." If I hadn't had that, I would have either left him or gone into a
deep depression. I would never have been able to cope with what I saw as
egregious slights and a terrible situation if I'd not had that support.
So, while I can't say that he shouldn't be able to act on this desire, I'd say
that you are well within your rights to either say my line <g> or (and I think
this may be the better approach, given my image of your husband) put a smile on
your face and say, "Really? That's interesting. Now, where is that spoon I
was looking for?" My guess is that your lack of response will discourage him
from "sharing" with you in the future.
Sheila
Amy Lou
"Anne Robotti" <arob...@deletemelscomm.net> wrote in message
news:pstj50hepomb01k69...@4ax.com...
Heh. Thats interesting. What you're saying is "what you don't know can't
hurt you" right? My DH enjoys (or needs to be) telling his friends and
family stuff about us that I would prefer to be kept private. That is just a
difference between our personalities. I suppose it would be fine with me if
he just didn't come back and tell me. Its the part about *knowing* these
people are privy to our private details that annoys me.
To be honest I think it is our style of discussing things that lets us down.
As soon as something comes up which we don't agree on DH feels bad or let
down or disrespected. If he were involved in this ng he would be coming here
complaining about how frustrating it is that Amy doesn't see things the same
way as him. I've tried the brainstorming technique where you try to come up
with a completely new solution to a disagreement - not one that was my
original plan or DH's original plan but a completely new one. You know the
one don't you? Its called the win win solution instead of one person winning
and the other losing. DH often won't come on board with this technique
because he won't budge from his original suggestions or solutions. You know
what I mean? He just puts all his energy into getting me to give in to him.
Or that's how it seems to me anyway. And the way I have coped with it is to
set a boundary and say something along the lines of "tough" to him. It works
for me but it doesnt stop him from being frustrated. Do you understand what
I am saying?
Amy
Kerri Clair
>my DH goes to his friends/relatives to get backup when he's against my
>parenting decisions. How do others cope when faced with not one opponent in
>a disagreement but several?
>
>This one is over my decision to stop nagging 16y/o about homework. I want to
>see if he can complete his homework and hand it in on time without our help.
>I think at 16 its fair to want to organise one's homework schedule oneself
>rather than doing it how ones parents want it done.
>
Maybe it would help to look at his motivation, rather than his action. Clearly
he *cares* about your kid's homework, and for whatever reason he doesn't think
your kid is ready to handle the homework issue by himself. It's irrelevant
whether or not the kid *can* handle his homework on his own. At 16 yrs. old he
probably should be able to, but just because somebody should be able to handle
something does not automatically mean they can, and I doubt your DH came to the
"he can't handle this on his own" conclusion in a vacuum. There must be some
indication that your son either can't (or won't) handle his homework on his
own.
But none of that really matters either. What matters is your DH cares, and
cares enough about your kid's homework to seek other opinions on the matter.
Personally, if I were him I would just back off completely on your kid's
homework issues and decide not to care at all.
-Kerri
Anne Robotti
>Maybe it would help to look at his motivation, rather than his action. Clearly
>he *cares* about your kid's homework, and for whatever reason he doesn't think
>your kid is ready to handle the homework issue by himself. It's irrelevant
>whether or not the kid *can* handle his homework on his own. At 16 yrs. old he
>probably should be able to, but just because somebody should be able to handle
>something does not automatically mean they can, and I doubt your DH came to the
>"he can't handle this on his own" conclusion in a vacuum. There must be some
>indication that your son either can't (or won't) handle his homework on his
>own.
Kerri, I think that one interpretation is that DH cares, and another
is that he's just looking for one more thing to ride the kid about. It
depends. I've certainly been guilty of that in the past, and I've
noticed that me and Amy's DH seem to be in similar places on a lot of
this stuff in the past.
Yes, sometimes my motives for getting involved in an issue are pure
and altruistic. But sometimes it's to prove that my spouse couldn't
parent his way out of a paper bag. Sometimes it's because I'm just in
a "don't like this kid" place and it makes me uncomfortable if I don't
have a concrete reason. Sometimes it's because there's something I
want for SD (college, cheerleading) that neither of her parents cares
about.
So I don't think it's as clear-cut as "be happy he cares" because
really you can't deduce that from the information on hand.
Another thing to take a good hard look at is whether DH is going to
care about this homework, which Amy doesn't care about or has decided
to back off of, and then turn into a big pissy martyr about being the
only one doing it. That's never attractive but a lot of SPs do it. Is
he going to do homework with the kid and then start fights with Amy
about it? Probably. I don't blame her for not wanting to deal with him
on it.
Anne
Rupa Bose
DH often won't come on board with this technique
> because he won't budge from his original suggestions or solutions. You know
> what I mean? He just puts all his energy into getting me to give in to him.
> Or that's how it seems to me anyway. And the way I have coped with it is to
> set a boundary and say something along the lines of "tough" to him. It works
> for me but it doesnt stop him from being frustrated. Do you understand what
> I am saying?
>
> Amy
Sounds as though it's more important to win than to solve the problem
(assuming, of course, that there actually is a problem).
Some people are like that. And very often they are willing to put more
emotional energy and effort into small things than their "opponents,"
who therefore frequently "give in" on what to them appear trivial.
Which reinforces the belief that a gust of emotional energy can then
persuade others of the particular POV in question.
I don't think it's easy for them to change. It's not really about the
problem, it's about controlling the space, but it's also difficult for
people who are doing that to perceive that that's what they're doing.
No solutions, but general sympathy, if that is indeed an accurate idea
of what's happening.
Rupa
ELLEN
> As a matter of fact I have got some really good advice (on another ng) on
> how to encourage my son to do his homework without nagging and I'm going
to
> give it a try. The thing with DH disagreeing with me and doing his
darndest
I'm having school issues with my 14yr old SS........ what newgroup did you
get the advice on?
Amy Lou
"Rupa Bose" <rkb...@pacific.net.sg> wrote in message
news:e5619372.04032...@posting.google.com...
I think you have hit the nail on the head. I've deal with this in the past
by agreeing to DH's demands when I didn't really agree with them. Then I'd
break the rules or forget to do what I said I would. This used to drive DH
crazy and when it occurred to me what was causing it I made a concerted
effort to stop agreeing to things that I knew I couldn't stick to. So now it
seems DH is driven crazy by my ability to say no to him. :)
Amy
Amy Lou
Thanks Anne. DH does care, he also likes to throw his weight around. Over
the w/e we visited with sister. DH couldn't stop himself from criticising me
to her and her family. He likes to show off, I think. I guess he just likes
to think that he is better than me. One of these days I'll know the right
thing to say to put him back in his box. Lets just say its my latest
challenge.
Amy
The Watsons
> Thanks Anne. DH does care, he also likes to throw his weight around. Over
> the w/e we visited with sister. DH couldn't stop himself from criticising
me
> to her and her family. He likes to show off, I think. I guess he just
likes
> to think that he is better than me. One of these days I'll know the right
> thing to say to put him back in his box. Lets just say its my latest
> challenge.
hmm...were it me, i think i'd have a few harsh words to say when we got home
'bout that...showing off at your expense? :(
Jess
Amy Lou
"The Watsons" <warped...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:ppu7c.21955$Nj.15275@fed1read01...
Wouldn't even make a dent. No he'll get what's coming to him one day when I
am prepared with a really good one liner which will swiftly cut him down to
size in front of his peers. Its times like this I wish I was more quick
witted.
Amy
Anne Robotti
wrote:
>Thanks Anne. DH does care, he also likes to throw his weight around. Over
>the w/e we visited with sister. DH couldn't stop himself from criticising me
>to her and her family. He likes to show off, I think. I guess he just likes
>to think that he is better than me. One of these days I'll know the right
>thing to say to put him back in his box. Lets just say its my latest
>challenge.
My DH used to do this, even criticizing me to *my* family! Or making
jokes at my expense, stuff like that. Really it was because he's so
insecure in social situations, it didn't have anything to do with me,
per se. But it did really hurt my feelings. I did really try to talk
to him about it, explaining how it hurt my feelings, on and on with no
results. Finally whenever he did it I just started saying (right in
front of everybody), "Do you feel like a big man now, that you were
able to put me down?" Not the most comfortable marital dynamic, and we
went through a few "I was kidding," "I don't care, it hurt my
feelings and you know that, " "You have no sense of humor," "I've
exhausted it all dealing with your tiny little dick" conversations
which were lovely with the entire family listening in, but he doesn't
do it anymore. Quite honestly, I think there are guys you just have to
hit with a brick. And when we talked about it in therapy, he *still*
really didn't see where he was wrong, he still thinks it's the fact
that I have no sense of humor and "can't take it." But he gets it from
his father, the man who told me I'd better add some fat bridesmaids to
the wedding party or I'd look like a big white cow coming down the
aisle.
Anne
ni...@impactwp.com
OK so I just realised I don't have to explain my Dad to you, everything you
said above applies to him perfectly.
W*nker.
N
jane
>thing to say to put him back in his box. Lets just say its my latest
>challenge.
>
>Amy
Ooh, ooh, pick me!
"Shut the fuck up or I'll rip your head off and tear your lungs out through the
bloody stump."
I swear, it works every time.
jane
Deborah M Riel
jane <janel...@aol.com> wrote:
>"Shut the fuck up or I'll rip your head off and tear your lungs out through the
>bloody stump."
Wow--cool!
Deb R.
Kathy Cole
<arob...@deletemelscomm.net> wrote:
> But he gets it from his father, the man who told me I'd better
> add some fat bridesmaids to the wedding party or I'd look like
> a big white cow coming down the aisle.
I hope you popped the old douchebag upside the head. What an asshole.
ni...@impactwp.com
"jane" <janel...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040322091511...@mb-m06.aol.com...
Or my personal favourite 'shut the fuck up or I'll tear your head off and
shit down your neck'.
Nikki
Kathleen
: > add some fat bridesmaids to the wedding party or I'd look like
: > a big white cow coming down the aisle.
:
: I hope you popped the old douchebag upside the head. What an
asshole.
OMG! She said *douchebag*.
LMAO Kathy!
filipic...@osu.edu
wrote:
You know, those are really good. But how about something simple like this:
"You know we disagree on this issue but you can't let it rest. Now you're
trying to humiliate me in front of your family. Will you please just
stop?"
And if he doesn't stop, then tell him "Well, if you can't stop I think I'd
better go." And take the keys and leave him there.
You don't have to put up with that kind of crap, Amy. But I know it's hard
as hell to say anything right there in front of God and everybody. Good
luck coming up with something next time.
--Martha
Anne Robotti
wrote:
Yeah, he was quite a jerk.
Anne
Anne Robotti
Jane, do people ever tell you that you have a gift for subtlety? No?
I see why.
Anne
Vicki Robinson
>> >
>> > "Shut the fuck up or I'll rip your head off and tear your lungs out
>> through the
>> > bloody stump."
>> >
>> Or my personal favourite 'shut the fuck up or I'll tear your head off and
>> shit down your neck'.
>>
>"You know we disagree on this issue but you can't let it rest. Now you're
>trying to humiliate me in front of your family. Will you please just
>stop?"
>
>And if he doesn't stop, then tell him "Well, if you can't stop I think I'd
>better go." And take the keys and leave him there.
My favorite (but only when at the very end of my rope, this is
last-ditch stuff) was: "You're an intelligent man, I know this to be
a fact, which is why it astounds me when you go out of your way to
look like an idiot. I wish you'd stop."
I like Martha's suggestion. It reveals the underlying process, makes
the unsaid said. You don't get defensive, because to respond to the
*content* of the message isn't the point, and Martha's answer responds
to the metamessage.
Vicki
--
Just to think I used to worry about things like that.
Used to worry 'bout rich and skinny
'til I wound up poor and fat.
-Delbert McClinton
Tracey
filipic...@osu.edu wrote:
> You know, those are really good. But how about something simple like this:
>
> "You know we disagree on this issue but you can't let it rest. Now you're
> trying to humiliate me in front of your family. Will you please just
> stop?"
>
> And if he doesn't stop, then tell him "Well, if you can't stop I think I'd
> better go." And take the keys and leave him there.
>
> You don't have to put up with that kind of crap, Amy. But I know it's hard
> as hell to say anything right there in front of God and everybody. Good
> luck coming up with something next time.
>
> --Martha
I'm with Martha on this. Not that I always follow it, but, when I do,
it's much more effective and has a better chance of long-term change
than the one-upmanship stuff. Amy, your wanting to have the one
phrase or comment that will 'put him back in his box' is futile,
really. *Especially* if you have to think and plan and plot to get
it done. There are people who are naturals at this kinda stuff and
people who aren't. It doesn't sound like you are a natural at it.
I keep seeing a scene in my head. Can't 'see' the actors involved
or even remember any of the dialogue but it was about someone who
had the most stinging comeback ready and waiting for someone else,
they delivered it and Whoosh! The other person immediately had a
reply for it that deflated the first person and caused them to
flee the scene in confusion. That's what usually happens when a
'non-natural' attempts to go head to head with a 'natural'. It
rarely works.
All I can see that you're going to accomplish if you attempt it is
to escalate the problem. If you don't care if you do that, then go
right ahead. Martha's way, while it may not affect a change in your
husband's behavior, does have an advantage in that you're not around
to see/hear the behavior that bugs you so much.
Tracey
ni...@impactwp.com
say my comment. Right?
Nikki
"Tracey" <rbran...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:405F3962...@aol.com...
_calinda_
> Top posting to say *someone* somewhere knew I wasn't seriously
> suggesting to say my comment. Right?
>
> Nikki
Umm.. well- yeah I knew you didn't exactly mean for Amy to say it..
think it maybe but not say it out loud.
Cal~
ni...@impactwp.com
"_calinda_" <calinda...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c3nipd$2asdc2$1...@ID-178943.news.uni-berlin.de...
Well thank goodness for that! I honestly wouldn't know what to recommend
that Amy do. Other than withhold sexual favours.
My Dad sounds just like her husband. Has to take the piss about everything,
doesn't know when to stop joking. There's literally no response to him that
I've managed to try yet in my 30 years that's even slightly helpful. Any
comment would be responded to with 'now I'm getting to her' or 'I'm really
winding her up now aren't I' or similar.
Of course hitting my father over the head with a frying pan isn't really an
option but I think it might be if it were my husband behaving like that.
Nikki
Kathy Cole
wrote:
> Thanks Anne. DH does care, he also likes to throw his weight around. Over
> the w/e we visited with sister. DH couldn't stop himself from criticising me
> to her and her family. He likes to show off, I think. I guess he just likes
> to think that he is better than me. One of these days I'll know the right
> thing to say to put him back in his box. Lets just say its my latest
> challenge.
If he was criticizing you to his sister in front of you I would term
that completely, unacceptably rude. If he wants to bitch about you he
needs to do it as a venting session privately, and not in front of your
face.
Anne Robotti
>Top posting to say *someone* somewhere knew I wasn't seriously suggesting to
>say my comment. Right?
Wait, what? Now I'm all confused.
Anne
jane
>I see why.
>
>Anne
Well, I am a proponent of gun control. Because really a more effective
response would be to just shoot him.
I'm not big on holding my tongue until later. I don't get the point.
jane
Amy Lou
Geeze Tracey! You sure know how to put me back in my box. :) I was having
such fun too imagining myself telling DH to fuck off. Off course you are
right. I doubt if I could even get the fuck word out of my mouth without
looking like a complete idiot. I don't swear. I don't even say "shit".
"Bloody" is about as naughty as I ever get.
You're right Martha's suggestion was the most sensible. Vickie's was good
value too. I'd fail miserably if I tried anything in front of an audience.
Its not something I would like to take a chance at.
Still a girl can dream can't she? :)
Amy
Amy Lou
"Anne Robotti"
>
> My DH used to do this, even criticizing me to *my* family! Or making
> jokes at my expense, stuff like that. Really it was because he's so
> insecure in social situations, it didn't have anything to do with me,
> per se. But it did really hurt my feelings. I did really try to talk
> to him about it, explaining how it hurt my feelings, on and on with no
> results. Finally whenever he did it I just started saying (right in
> front of everybody), "Do you feel like a big man now, that you were
> able to put me down?" Not the most comfortable marital dynamic, and we
> went through a few "I was kidding," "I don't care, it hurt my
> feelings and you know that, " "You have no sense of humor," "I've
> exhausted it all dealing with your tiny little dick" conversations
> which were lovely with the entire family listening in, but he doesn't
> do it anymore. Quite honestly, I think there are guys you just have to
> hit with a brick. And when we talked about it in therapy, he *still*
> really didn't see where he was wrong, he still thinks it's the fact
> that I have no sense of humor and "can't take it." But he gets it from
> his father, the man who told me I'd better add some fat bridesmaids to
> the wedding party or I'd look like a big white cow coming down the
> aisle.
Im sorry your FIL was such a ratbag. Its common for a man to turn out like
his dad or to act in ways that overcompensate for trying to not be like dad.
My DH has this idea that his mother has always nagged his father. Apparently
he has always felt very sorry for his father for having to put up with it.
He overcompensates by hating anything that could be construed as a nag from
me. What to me is a simple boundary setting to him is a henpecking. That
sort of thing. It is quite challenging when your language or actions are
misconstrued like that.
Amy
ni...@impactwp.com
I was just entering the 'most offensive comment to level at a family member'
competition.
Seriously? As I've said I wouldn't know how to deal with Amy's situation
either. Like the thing with my Dad. He's not called me you know. Roger's
doing some stuff at his office on Friday and Kiera and I are supposed to be
going over. Now I'm a big girl I'm not prepared to just ignore what happened
and quietly slip it under the carpet for me to get all resentful about it.
I'm not calling him because that gives him all the power and will mean that
I get about 5 seconds to explain my side of the problem before he brushes me
off with an ineffectual 'sorry' and expect me to instantly drop the subject
and never mention it again. I'm thinking of emailing him saying 'if you
expect me and Kiera to be there on Friday you need to call me for a chat'.
What do you think?
Nikki
Anne Robotti
>
> I'm thinking of emailing him saying 'if you
>expect me and Kiera to be there on Friday you need to call me for a chat'.
>What do you think?
>
>Nikki
I think that if he hurt your feelings I feel like hopping the Concorde
and fucking beating him to death with a frying pan. That's what I
think. Ask Vicki, she's so much more rational than me even when I
don't have the 8-months-pregnant thing going on.
Anne
Vicki Robinson
>On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 08:44:25 -0000, <ni...@impactwp.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm thinking of emailing him saying 'if you
>>expect me and Kiera to be there on Friday you need to call me for a chat'.
>>What do you think?
>
>I think that if he hurt your feelings I feel like hopping the Concorde
>and fucking beating him to death with a frying pan. That's what I
>think. Ask Vicki, she's so much more rational than me even when I
>don't have the 8-months-pregnant thing going on.
I think that this is how he is. He's not going to change. You either
roll with the punches or decide to not see him anymore. *Whatever you
do*, he's not going to see that he was wrong, and he's not going to
change anything in the way he deals with you.
I learned this the hard way.
jane
>and never mention it again. I'm thinking of emailing him saying 'if you
>expect me and Kiera to be there on Friday you need to call me for a chat'.
>What do you think?
>
>Nikki
What's Friday?
How about, "I'm not coming Friday unless we talk this over and I feel confident
we're not going to have a repeat of whatever-day-it-was"?
jane
The Watsons
"Vicki Robinson" <vjr...@xcski.com> wrote in message
news:c3pdjp$f53$1...@allhats.xcski.com...
> I think that this is how he is. He's not going to change. You either
> roll with the punches or decide to not see him anymore. *Whatever you
> do*, he's not going to see that he was wrong, and he's not going to
> change anything in the way he deals with you.
>
> I learned this the hard way.
*nods*
Jess
Wendy
> I think that if he hurt your feelings I feel like hopping the Concorde
Concorde's dead now. Not that that makes an iota of difference, just a
point of note.
Wendy
ni...@impactwp.com
Heh. Thanks. I feel better already!!
Nikki
ni...@impactwp.com
Friday is just a day when Roger has to do some stuff at my Dad's office so I
said, before he behaved like an asshole, that I'd take Kiera over and we
could all do lunch when they were done.
I'm fairly sure no repeat will happen on Friday because he won't have had
enough wine. What pisses me off is the idea that I'll get there, he'll say
'sorry' without letting me even explain what pissed me off (right now he
knows I'm upset but not why really which doesn't preclude it happening at a
future date by when he'll have forgotten about this occasion), and I'll have
to live with the burning frustration. Oh plus watch him build up the same
kind of bullshit relationship with Kiera.
Vicki - it's not a 'not see him again' kind of thing. You're right, he's not
going to change so much. But I need to be happy that I can have a
relationship with him which for me means being able to say 'shut the fuck up
you know I hate it when you do that' without him making out like he doesn't
get what I'm saying. You know?
I have two days to decide here folks. Maybe it's time I decided what to do
by myself without relying on you guys? My main problem is that I wouldn't
take this kind of shit from anyone else, so why put up with it from him just
because he's my Dad?
Nikki
Vicki Robinson
>Vicki - it's not a 'not see him again' kind of thing. You're right, he's not
>going to change so much. But I need to be happy that I can have a
>relationship with him which for me means being able to say 'shut the fuck up
>you know I hate it when you do that' without him making out like he doesn't
>get what I'm saying. You know?
OK, but here you are, saying that you want him to change. He
*is* going to make out like he doesn't get it. To "get it" means that
he'd have to admit that he was wrong and he'd have to apologize, and
he's decided already that he's not, and you just have no sense of
humor. So, maybe *you'll* get to a place where you can tell him to
stfu, but he's never going to hear that without making out like he
doesn't understand. Your choice may be between sucking it up or not
seeing him so often.
Never count on a person to change, especially one who's been operating
this way for 50+ years, and **especially** someone who exhibits the
behavior when he's been drinking. Even if he said "You're right,
Nikki, I've been a jerk" nothing will change when there is alcohol
involved.
That's what I mean when I say that he's not going to change. You're
still expecting some change. I think it may never happen, even the
little bit of change that you want.
ni...@impactwp.com
> In a previous article, <ni...@impactwp.com> said:
>
> >Vicki - it's not a 'not see him again' kind of thing. You're right, he's
not
> >going to change so much. But I need to be happy that I can have a
> >relationship with him which for me means being able to say 'shut the fuck
up
> >you know I hate it when you do that' without him making out like he
doesn't
> >get what I'm saying. You know?
>
> OK, but here you are, saying that you want him to change. He
> *is* going to make out like he doesn't get it. To "get it" means that
> he'd have to admit that he was wrong and he'd have to apologize, and
> he's decided already that he's not, and you just have no sense of
> humor. So, maybe *you'll* get to a place where you can tell him to
> stfu, but he's never going to hear that without making out like he
> doesn't understand. Your choice may be between sucking it up or not
> seeing him so often.
He did apologise. Sort of. He said (by mobile text) 'I don't know what went
wrong between us tonight. Sorry! Dad'. I replied 'you're a git but I love
you, tell SM thanks' (because we all know my stepmother encouraged him into
that). He then replied 'am I really that bad or are we too much alike' to
which i replied 'we are not alike, if you want to talk about this great, but
I'm not doing it by text'.
I don't care if he never understands. I guess I rushed (like I'm doing now -
I never consider my posts - is that terrible?) as what I really mean is that
I don't want him to pretend he can't remember that I have a problem when he
behaves like that. Not that he doesn't get it, but that he can't deny that I
have complained about it before.
>
> Never count on a person to change, especially one who's been operating
> this way for 50+ years, and **especially** someone who exhibits the
> behavior when he's been drinking. Even if he said "You're right,
> Nikki, I've been a jerk" nothing will change when there is alcohol
> involved.
I'm trying not to count on him changing here, really I'm not. But I just
can't roll over and take this kind of treatment. If anyone else in my life,
you, Anne, any friend here, treated me like that I'd tell them to fuck off.
I tried to tell him that night, but of course, he was pissed so he didn't
get it at all. The drinking I can handle - I can tell him I don't want to be
around him when he drinks that much if he can't control himself, and I can
enforce that. He was in my house. My last words were 'you're mean and I next
time you come you can behave properly'.
>
> That's what I mean when I say that he's not going to change. You're
> still expecting some change. I think it may never happen, even the
> little bit of change that you want.
Maybe not, but how do I deal? I just cannot do his default. His default now
is that I turn up on Friday, he pulls a stupid face and says 'sorry' then I
just go 'it's ok Dad' and hug him and tell him it's fine and then we wait
until it happens again before it comes up. I'm not that person anymore. I've
not dealt with this kind of bullshit in my family for ten years because I've
lived far away. I've moved back 'home' and now it's in my face and I'm
different. They all expect the same from me and I just can't be that person
anymore, I don't even think I know how to be that person anymore. I mean,
from what you know about me can you see me just sucking this up from my Dad?
How did I end up discussing this in a newsgroup is what I really want to
know! Has this got anything to do with stepparenting at all?
Thanks for helping me work through this guys. I know I could call him, but
that feels a little like handing all the power to him because I've got to
raise the issue. Am I kidding myself and this is avoidance? I feel like I
want to throw the ball right over at him so that he has to DO something to
start sorting this out even if it is being the first one to pick up the
phone.
Nikki
The Watsons
<ni...@impactwp.com> wrote in message
news:10800801...@news01.eclipse.net.uk...
> I have two days to decide here folks. Maybe it's time I decided what to do
> by myself without relying on you guys? My main problem is that I wouldn't
> take this kind of shit from anyone else, so why put up with it from him
just
> because he's my Dad?
you put up with it because he Is your dad and it's hard to make that kind of
call with your parents....
but at the same time, the point i had to get to was that no, i didn't let
anyone else get away with the crap my parents pulled on me, so why was i
letting my parents walk all over me, blood relationship not withstanding?
and is it really worth it, fulfilling some obligation to have a relationship
with your father, or the stress, hassle, headache and heartache of whatever
it is he does? and just to really give ya something to ponder-is it
something you want your daughter seeing/learning from?
good luck-it ain't easy, and it doesn't get any easier...and i've done it
twice...:(
Jess
Vicki Robinson
>He did apologise. Sort of. He said (by mobile text) 'I don't know what went
>wrong between us tonight. Sorry! Dad'. I replied 'you're a git but I love
>you, tell SM thanks' (because we all know my stepmother encouraged him into
>that). He then replied 'am I really that bad or are we too much alike' to
>which i replied 'we are not alike, if you want to talk about this great, but
>I'm not doing it by text'.
That's good. But do you see his resistance to admitting that he did
something wrong? "Are we too much alike?" Please.
>I don't care if he never understands. I guess I rushed (like I'm doing now -
>I never consider my posts - is that terrible?) as what I really mean is that
>I don't want him to pretend he can't remember that I have a problem when he
>behaves like that. Not that he doesn't get it, but that he can't deny that I
>have complained about it before.
You can always do that. I remember once during a heated discussion
with my ex, he was doing the usual things that he does to put me in
the wrong, and with every twist I said "For the second time, what I
said was..." "For the third time, what I said was..." I got up to
22. Calm, rational, always taking what he said and calmly restating
my case. It eventually worked. But man, it'll wear you down, and
this was only over one issue, not a metaissue like this.
>I'm trying not to count on him changing here, really I'm not. But I just
>can't roll over and take this kind of treatment. If anyone else in my life,
>you, Anne, any friend here, treated me like that I'd tell them to fuck off.
>I tried to tell him that night, but of course, he was pissed so he didn't
>get it at all. The drinking I can handle - I can tell him I don't want to be
>around him when he drinks that much if he can't control himself, and I can
>enforce that. He was in my house. My last words were 'you're mean and I next
>time you come you can behave properly'.
Can you feel satisfied with always calling him out when he does this,
calmly and without anger? Just continually pointing it out until
maybe, in 2015, he hears your voice in his head before he starts?
The involvment of alcohol really does bother me when it comes to the
long-term outlook.
>Maybe not, but how do I deal? I just cannot do his default. His default now
>is that I turn up on Friday, he pulls a stupid face and says 'sorry' then I
>just go 'it's ok Dad' and hug him and tell him it's fine and then we wait
>until it happens again before it comes up. I'm not that person anymore. I've
>not dealt with this kind of bullshit in my family for ten years because I've
>lived far away. I've moved back 'home' and now it's in my face and I'm
>different. They all expect the same from me and I just can't be that person
>anymore, I don't even think I know how to be that person anymore. I mean,
>from what you know about me can you see me just sucking this up from my Dad?
It *might* come down to whether or not you want a relationship with
him.
If you could be satisfied with pointing his behavior out to him each
time, and telling him that you don't like it and he should go home
now, you might stand a chance. But that also might be the status quo.
He gets to stay until he misbehaves, and then he has to leave. Is
that good enough?
>Thanks for helping me work through this guys. I know I could call him, but
>that feels a little like handing all the power to him because I've got to
>raise the issue. Am I kidding myself and this is avoidance? I feel like I
>want to throw the ball right over at him so that he has to DO something to
>start sorting this out even if it is being the first one to pick up the
>phone.
Approaching him first puts you in a position of strength. Then you
get to frame the discussion, define the parameters and make your case.
You *are* avoiding; marshalling your arguments and then contacting him
is the strong position.
The Watsons
<ni...@impactwp.com> wrote in message
news:10800833...@news01.eclipse.net.uk...
> He did apologise.
not if SM pushed him into it...
> I don't care if he never understands. I guess I rushed (like I'm doing
now -
> I never consider my posts - is that terrible?) as what I really mean is
that
> I don't want him to pretend he can't remember that I have a problem when
he
> behaves like that. Not that he doesn't get it, but that he can't deny that
I
> have complained about it before.
then you do expect him to change-you expect him to remember where your
boundaries are...doesn't sound so bad to me...
> I'm trying not to count on him changing here, really I'm not. But I just
> can't roll over and take this kind of treatment. If anyone else in my
life,
> you, Anne, any friend here, treated me like that I'd tell them to fuck
off.
> I tried to tell him that night, but of course, he was pissed so he didn't
> get it at all. The drinking I can handle - I can tell him I don't want to
be
> around him when he drinks that much if he can't control himself, and I can
> enforce that. He was in my house. My last words were 'you're mean and I
next
> time you come you can behave properly'.
quit fooling yourself-you do want him to change....you want him to either
not drink around you or to modify his behavior when he has been drinking...
> Maybe not, but how do I deal? I just cannot do his default. His default
now
> is that I turn up on Friday, he pulls a stupid face and says 'sorry' then
I
> just go 'it's ok Dad' and hug him and tell him it's fine and then we wait
> until it happens again before it comes up. I'm not that person anymore.
I've
> not dealt with this kind of bullshit in my family for ten years because
I've
> lived far away. I've moved back 'home' and now it's in my face and I'm
> different. They all expect the same from me and I just can't be that
person
> anymore, I don't even think I know how to be that person anymore. I mean,
> from what you know about me can you see me just sucking this up from my
Dad?
well, bluntly, you Are sucking it up from your dad or you wouldn't be
stressing this much...it'd be a simple "fuck off" and you'd be on your merry
way...here's another way of asking the question differently-are you willing
to sacrifice some of what's important to you so your father can do this/how
important is this issue to you?
> How did I end up discussing this in a newsgroup is what I really want to
> know! Has this got anything to do with stepparenting at all?
*shrugs* you find support where you can get it? :)
> Thanks for helping me work through this guys. I know I could call him, but
> that feels a little like handing all the power to him because I've got to
> raise the issue. Am I kidding myself and this is avoidance? I feel like I
> want to throw the ball right over at him so that he has to DO something to
> start sorting this out even if it is being the first one to pick up the
> phone.
i can understand that, but i can also see Vicki's viewpoint in that picking
up the phone first makes you stronger....from what you've said, he ain't
gonna...so if it's that important to you, it looks like you're gonna be the
one making the phone call too...
Jess
Amy Lou
<ni...@impactwp.com> wrote in message
> I'm trying not to count on him changing here, really I'm not. But I just
> can't roll over and take this kind of treatment.
You know why you've been taking it? Because you've been taking it
personally.
I'm in a similar situation with DH at the moment. I tend to take it
personally when he criticises. That's a problem - my problem - and I need to
either remove myself from him when he criticises or stop taking it
personally.
I have a relative who I am very fond of. She has this nasty habit of being
very blunt with people. She comes out with stuff like "you should go on a
diet". Now some other relatives take this stuff personally and limit
themselves from being around her. I have developed a thick skin to this
particular person's hurtful words. I can just let it roll off my back.
Next time DH says something mean or rude to me I'm going to reinforce to
myself that it doesn't matter what he thinks or says. Maybe you could try
the same thing with your dad?
"Sticks and stones will break your bones but words will never hurt you".
Unless there is a flaw in your self confidence that is. :)
Amy
Vicki Robinson
>Next time DH says something mean or rude to me I'm going to reinforce to
>myself that it doesn't matter what he thinks or says. Maybe you could try
>the same thing with your dad?
But, Amy, you're *married* to this guy! What he thinks and says
*should* matter!
You don't choose your parents, but you do choose your spouse. Why do
you stay with someone whose words you must discount with "It doesn't
matter what he thinks or says."
Vicki
Brenna2b
>I'm trying not to count on him changing here, really I'm not. But I just
>can't roll over and take this kind of treatment
I delurked to this group a few months ago with almost this exact question. It
was tangentially related to step parents because I was trying to figure out how
to build a good relationship with my stepmother, who I respect and admire,
while still having to deal with my father, who sounds very much like yours
except he lacks any ability to apologize at all. This group really helped and
I got some great advice, particularly from Jane and Heather. I'm still
struggling with it though. Intellectually I'm fine with the "you just deal
with it, and don't get emotional because he's now almost 70, will never change,
and the alternative of cutting him out of your life is not a step you want to
take" but emotionally I still get hurt, disappointed and feel like shit for
taking stuff from him that I wouldn't take from anyone else. So you have my
sincere empathy and compassion, and if you find a solution that works, let me
know.
Brenna
Deborah M Riel
Amy Lou <amyl...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>Next time DH says something mean or rude to me I'm going to reinforce to
>myself that it doesn't matter what he thinks or says. Maybe you could try
>the same thing with your dad?
I don't get this. How can it not matter what your DH says to you,
particularly if he's mean or rude? If it stops mattering, why is he
still your husband? Is it such a stretch that if what he thinks or
says to you when it's mean or rude doesn't matter, then what he thinks
or says when he's nice ceases to matter as well? Isn't the point of
being married that you (and what you say and do) matter to your
spouse?
>"Sticks and stones will break your bones but words will never hurt you".
>Unless there is a flaw in your self confidence that is. :)
I think that's a lie, and that anyone who's ever been verbally abused
by someone who is supposed to love them knows it's a lie. It just
gives permission to someone to use words as weapons without thinking
twice about it because the flaw is in the person on the receiving end.
>Amy
Deb R.
badgirl
<ni...@impactwp.com> wrote in message
news:10800833...@news01.eclipse.net.uk...
>
Nikki,
About a year before I got pregnant with my now 2 YO, I had a blow out
with my dad over something that is now probably irrelevant and
unimportant but at the time to me it was a *Big Huge Deal*. I'm a
stubborn hardheaded ass and I refuse to be the one *again* to say "gee
Daddy, it's ok, you can be a jerkoff all you want to I still love you"
I'm past that in my life. I am NOT ok that my Dad is not in my life
anymore. But it's now to the point where I just simply will not be the
one to pick up the phone and it will be all better.
I think what I'm trying to say is, you really need to consider how you
want things to be in your life 3 or 5 or 10 years from now. Do you
want to make this time the final time he pulls this crap and upsets
you or do you want to maintain the relationship with him and just let
it go (put it in a bubble and blow it away LOL)
I can say, if I knew then what I know now...the more time that passes,
the more difficult it is for me to pick up the phone. I don't know if
my Dad is the kind of person that would be willing to modify his
behavior to maintain a relationship with someone he loves (maybe I do
because he hasn't called right?) But I do know that I could have
handled it differently, reacted to what I was so tired of from him
differently than I did and maybe I would still have him in my life.
Either way, I was unhappy about it then because of how the whole
situation made me feel, like I was cheating myself because I was
letting it go so much, but I'm unhappy about it now too because I
don't have someone I love in my life every day anymore like I used to.
Look into the future of your relationship and see how you want it to
turn out and act accordingly without relying on him to make *any* of
the effort (if he does then that's just added bonus) Decide how much
of that weight you want to shoulder on your own, what is your fathers
love worth to you?
I don't know if any of this makes sense. I'm just trying to say that
little tings now can turn into big things later and before you know it
may be too big to take back and fix.
Jen
jane
>by myself without relying on you guys?
Pfffft.
>My main problem is that I wouldn't
>take this kind of shit from anyone else, so why put up with it from him just
>because he's my Dad?
Well, duh, because he's your dad. We don't choose them, Nik, and none of them
are perfect. Still, you can make your feelings clear, and you can decide what
you'll accept and what you'll avoid.
The bottom line is what it always is. He upsets you because you let him. If
you don't want him to, then you've got to look to yourself.
jane
>
>Nikki
The Watsons
"Amy Lou" <amyl...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:8Q68c.121844$Wa....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> I'm in a similar situation with DH at the moment. I tend to take it
> personally when he criticises. That's a problem - my problem - and I need
to
> either remove myself from him when he criticises or stop taking it
> personally.
> myself that it doesn't matter what he thinks or says. Maybe you could try
> the same thing with your dad?
>
> "Sticks and stones will break your bones but words will never hurt you".
> Unless there is a flaw in your self confidence that is. :)
"to love,honor, and cherish until death do you part"...
i'm sorry, how is being constantly insulting and hurtful to someone loving,
and how are you supposed to just shrug it off when it's someone who
supposedly loved you enough to make that committment to you, and that you
gave the same committment to?
*shrugs* just my opinion, and i'll go back to my mousehole now...
Jess
jane
>> I'm trying not to count on him changing here, really I'm not. But I just
>> can't roll over and take this kind of treatment. If anyone else in my
>life,
>> you, Anne, any friend here, treated me like that I'd tell them to fuck
>off.
>> I tried to tell him that night, but of course, he was pissed so he didn't
>> get it at all.
Nikki, if you were saying it to me, I think you'd just say, "Fuck off."
The drinking I can handle - I can tell him I don't want to
>be
>> around him when he drinks that much if he can't control himself, and I can
>> enforce that. He was in my house. My last words were 'you're mean and I
>next
>> time you come you can behave properly'.
You know what, though? He knows. He might not want to know, and he might not
admit he knows, but he knows.
jane
Melissa
>myself that it doesn't matter what he thinks or says. Maybe you could try
>the same thing with your dad?
>
That's just fucked up though. You're choosing to live with this guy, and
choosing to take the crap he throws at you. Why live with anyone who would
treat you like that?
Love,
Melissa
Rupa Bose
> Thanks for helping me work through this guys. I know I could call him, but
> that feels a little like handing all the power to him because I've got to
> raise the issue. Am I kidding myself and this is avoidance? I feel like I
> want to throw the ball right over at him so that he has to DO something to
> start sorting this out even if it is being the first one to pick up the
> phone.
>
Is it just me, or would it make sense to do this by text msg or e-mail
or some distancing medium? It tamps everything down, and makes it more
difficult for him to just deny what you say. And it's in black and
white, he can't pretend you didn't say it or he didn't hear or he
didn't get it.
Rupa
les cargot
> that feels a little like handing all the power to him because I've got to
> raise the issue. Am I kidding myself and this is avoidance? I feel like I
> want to throw the ball right over at him so that he has to DO something to
> start sorting this out even if it is being the first one to pick up the
> phone.
>
> Nikki
>
<delurk>
IMHO, for you to take the initiative and raise the issue with
him is *taking* power rather than giving it away. If he's
unwilling or unable to accept your feelings, then for you to
bring it to him at an appropriate time is a sane, adult thing
to do. If he hasn't wised up by now that this is no way to
conduct a relationship, then he isn't likely to take it upon
himself to try to fix it, so that means if anyone is going to
do it, you're elected.
Classic advice on conflict resolution says it's a good idea to
talk it over at a time when the conflict isn't raging, when
both parties are calm and capable of being as reasonable as
they can, so if you can call him or meet with him when you're
not feeling agitated about his behavior, that's halfway there.
Then it's his job to meet you halfway and be reasonable (or
not :-( ).
If you can plan what you want to say (maybe even practice with
a friend or in front of a mirror), and anticipate the kinds of
responses he's likely to give, and figure out polite but firm
ways to deflect his trying to avoid responsibility for his past
words and actions, and continue to be calm and reasonable no
matter how he decides to respond (which can be a really tough
job), maybe, just maybe he'll listen to reason.
Maybe you can acknowledge his feelings about his behavior, that
he thinks he's being funny, and tell him as politely and firmly
as you can that to you, it isn't funny, it hurts, and although
he may not _understand_ your feelings, ask if he will _respect_
you enough to accept you as you are and stop doing whatever it
is that hurts you. If it works, and he's willing to change,
great. If not, and Vicki's right, you can't count on him
changing, at least you have been upfront and honest. After
that, if you decide to limit contact with him and he wants to
know why he doesn't see you as often, you can remind him of what
you need in order to feel comfortable around him.
Of course nothing ever works out that neat and tidy, and he may
be one of those people who is incapable of empathy (we have at
least one in my family, maybe more; it's a sort of high-functioning
autism, where they lack the ability to understand anyone's feelings
other than their own) so no matter what you say or do it won't sink
in. But even if he never changes, you'll have the satisfaction of
knowing you've done your best to have a healthy relationship with
him, and beyond knowing you have behaved with integrity, it's good
role modeling for your daughter. When anyone, including a relative,
is consistently disrespectful, it's healthy to limit or avoid
contact with him or her. It's a sad lesson to have to learn about
your own father or grandfather, but it's better for your daughter
to learn early that she has the right to expect to be treated
decently, even by older relatives.
Hope this helps.
</delurk>
Amy Lou
"Melissa" <laa...@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:20040324001248...@mb-m25.aol.com...
Like what? Oh I see. I said "next time DH says something mean or rude"
didn't I? Well, sometimes people say stuff which is *interpreted* as mean or
rude but isn't necessarily that way. Its what happens when we take things
too personally. For eg I have a thing about swearing. If DH says something
like you just said "Amy that's fucked" and I take it personally, I might
take it to mean that he thinks I am fucked up or that I am an idiot. If I
don't take it personally I realise that he is telling me what I just said
doesn't make sense to him or is too far out there for him to agree with.
The other day I said DH criticised me to his family. Well that was
stretching the truth a bit. You see I *felt* criticised but I don't think DH
intended to do that. He was really only explaining to his family how he and
I see a particular issue differently.
DH and I often get our wires crossed. He takes some things that I say
personally too. That's why this thread was started actually. He took it
personally when I didn't agree with him over the homework issue. That, in
turn, got up my nose. He's from Mars and I'm from Venus. Truly! :)
Amy
jane
>white, he can't pretend you didn't say it or he didn't hear or he
>didn't get it.
>
>Rupa
Sure he can.
jane
ni...@impactwp.com
Oh grrr. Thanks everyone for your responses. I know full well if I phone him
I have literally no chance of getting more than 5 words out before he'll
attempt to shut me up. At least if I email him I can say what I want to say
and still have the conversation with him afterwards. Oh stuff it here's the
email I think I'm going to send:
Hi
I can't come on Friday unless we sort things out - and sort them out my way.
I know the Murphy family protocol dictates that I turn up on Friday, you
look sheepish and I pretend that all is forgiven without ever having chance
to explain what pissed me off. Unfortunately, that's not how I live my life
anymore and I just can't do that. To me, it's not honest and it's only going
to make me feel resentful. Me feeling resentful is going to damage our
relationship and I don't want that, and I'm sure you don't either.
My problem on Saturday was really very simple. I don't mind a bit of
lighthearted banter, but you went too far. I don't think you realised you
went too far because you'd had too much to drink. We moved from a
father-daughter having a chat about all sorts of things with the occasional
jokey comment to me being literally unable to say *anything* to you without
you taking the piss out of it. Things degenerated from lighthearted fun into
downright ridicule. It seems to me that you wait for me to give you some
information about something that's important in my life (breastfeeding, home
education, not working in order to be with Kiera) and then you use that
information against me.
It might seem like joking to you. You might think that you did nothing
wrong. That's fine, you can think that if you like and it doesn't bother me.
But I'm telling you that that kind of treatment *does* bother me, it does
upset me and I feel that it doesn't show me respect for my feelings.
I wouldn't put up with that kind of treatment from any friend of mine. I
therefore can't put up with it from you just because you're my Dad.
I want you to not treat me like that anymore. And if you accidentally treat
me like that without realising that's what you're doing don't be surprised
when I tell you to shut up and leave me alone. In fact, if you treat me like
that again in my house I'll ask you to go home. If you can't control
yourself around me because you've had too much to drink then I need you to
not drink that much when you're around me.
Right now you probably think I'm making a big fuss over nothing. But I'm
telling you that this is important to me, and if I hadn't said all of the
above I'd just be finding ways to spend less time with you and avoid you
where possible, and I know you don't want that any more than I do. So I'm
afraid you're going to have to suck this up.
I'm not looking for an apology so much as I want this out in the open and
dealt with honestly. If this ever happens again I want to be able to say
'hey Dad you're doing that thing again and if you don't stop it I'm going to
have to leave your company' without you making out that you have no idea
what I'm talking about and ridiculing me even further for taking things too
seriously.
I think I've been very clear. I'd like to know that you've read this email
and really tried to hear what I'm saying even if you don't understand it
completely.
I do love you and I don't want to fall out over this, which is why I had to
say all of this, no matter how uncomfortable for either one of us.
Nikki
WhansaMi
nuts.
"For eg I have a thing about swearing."
The abbreviation "e.g." stands for "exempli gratia," a Latin term meaning "for
example". So, the above would mean "For for example."
Sorry. Just a pet peeve.
Sheila
jane
>afraid you're going to have to suck this up.
I'd take that out.
Good luck, Nik, I'm pulling for you.
jane
The Watsons
"Rupa Bose" <rkb...@pacific.net.sg> wrote in message
news:e5619372.04032...@posting.google.com...
> Is it just me, or would it make sense to do this by text msg or e-mail
> or some distancing medium? It tamps everything down, and makes it more
> difficult for him to just deny what you say. And it's in black and
> white, he can't pretend you didn't say it or he didn't hear or he
> didn't get it.
he can turn the phone off or just not answer the email....if she's right
there in front of him, it makes it a bit harder to just ignore it...
Jess
_calinda_
>And it's
>> in black and white, he can't pretend you didn't say it or he
didn't
>> hear or he didn't get it.
>
> he can turn the phone off or just not answer the email....if she's
> right there in front of him, it makes it a bit harder to just
ignore
> it...
>
> Jess
He could just not answer the email, but chances are he'll read it.
If she's right there in front of him, trying to tell him these
things, it will make it easier for him to poo poo her feelings and
belittle her as he has in the past.
It seems to me, from what she's said, he wouldn't hear any of her
concerns if she said it to his face. It sounds like he would just
tell her she's been too sensitive and lay the blame for the
'misunderstanding' at her feet.
Also, this may be a type of situation where someone can "hear" what
is being said if they read it but lacks the skills to hear it if
it's spoken. Much like a child that learns through auditory skills
vs verbal skills.
I think it's worth a try to send the email (with the part cut that
Jane suggested- agree on that point), and then follow it up with a
phone call before friday. JMHO
Good luck, Nikki
Cal~
The Watsons
"_calinda_" <calinda...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c3s6oi$2b78p2$1...@ID-178943.news.uni-berlin.de...
> He could just not answer the email, but chances are he'll read it.
> If she's right there in front of him, trying to tell him these
> things, it will make it easier for him to poo poo her feelings and
> belittle her as he has in the past.
>
i'm assuming that thte "poo-pooing" is going to happen either way...
> It seems to me, from what she's said, he wouldn't hear any of her
> concerns if she said it to his face. It sounds like he would just
> tell her she's been too sensitive and lay the blame for the
> 'misunderstanding' at her feet.
yep..
>
> Also, this may be a type of situation where someone can "hear" what
> is being said if they read it but lacks the skills to hear it if
> it's spoken. Much like a child that learns through auditory skills
> vs verbal skills.
>
> I think it's worth a try to send the email (with the part cut that
> Jane suggested- agree on that point), and then follow it up with a
> phone call before friday. JMHO
that'd work too, tho' i'm more of a fan of doing this stuff in
person...*shrugs*
Jess
ni...@impactwp.com
news:c3s6oi$2b78p2$1...@ID-178943.news.uni-berlin.de...
Thanks everyone. I'm going to cut that bit and send it.
He will find it easier to poo-poo me face to face. He'll be so uncomfortable
at being challenged face to face, or on the phone, that he'd say or do
anything to shut me up and make it almost impossible for me to keep talking
about it. At least with the email, whether he understands it or not, he will
read it, and I will be able to say in future 'remember that email I sent
you? well what you're doing right now is the same as what I was complaining
about then'. I feel at least he will be able to use that as a reference
point for a behaviour I don't like even if it makes no sense to him.
We'll see what happens.
Nikki
Kerri Clair
>Maybe not, but how do I deal? I just cannot do his default. His default now
>is that I turn up on Friday, he pulls a stupid face and says 'sorry' then I
>just go 'it's ok Dad' and hug him and tell him it's fine and then we wait
>until it happens again before it comes up.
How about not telling him 'it's OK' after he apologizes, because it's *not* OK
and it's never going to be OK. It's just going to be a respite until next
time. To forgive does not mean you have to forget, or pretend the hurtful thing
is now somehow fine because the person apologized. To say 'it's OK' or 'it's
fine' is in a way transferring the blame back to yourself, as if you were the
one at fault for being offended instead of the offender being at fault in the
situation.
Instead of 'it's OK, it's fine', maybe something like 'I accept your apology. I
hope from now on you will think about the impact of your words before you say
something so hurtful.' Which is not to say that's going to change him, but at
least the last message left in his mind is that the kind of treatment that
neccesitated the apology is still not OK with you, and that you expect care
will be taken in the furture to avoid repeat of that behavior.
-Kerri