Skipping visitation
Kathleen
not hearing from her, which is pretty strange but we had that big
Christmas day after exchange drama - she sent me an email to see if
she could go on a date with this senior. I didn't reply, so she
called and when she asked I told her he could come to the house and I
would rent them a movie but that was it. (I know you are going to ask
so I will tell you 1) I've been very accomodating with her and her
friends for a while. She's done a LOT of things with her friends
lately, and I just started a Friday night thing at our church and I
told her a while back that she wouldn't be able to go like we were
anymore, because of all the extra stuff we do here. She agreed back
then that she understood that. This is the first time I have said no
since labor day - remember that? I don't approve of her dating, and
this guy is a senior who I already overheard her tell someone he is
"making moves" on her). Of course that wasn't good enough, she got a
tiny bit pissy and we got off the phone and I thought "Wow, that
wasn't as bad as I thought it would be." I anticipated her getting
pissy and telling me she wasn't going to come then.
Last night she called to tell me she wasn't coming and :cheery: I love
you and tell everyone I love them blah blah blah blah.
Somehow I just have to endure this, I'm thinking. I could take him to
court and bring contempt charges, but I don't see that really solving
anything. Can the court force them to respect me, or pretend to? Can
the court make her into a non-selfish teenager? My human self wants
BF and BF to see how wrong they are being about this, but my spiritual
self says that isn't going to matter. And both selfs say that I dread
the stress of that kind of action. Although I *could* go through
domestic relations... I don't see anyone making her come. And
wouldn't she just resent us more for causing her BF and BF
problems? I just don't see anything positive coming from it.
They still haven't served me papers about the CS. I don't know what's
going on there.
I am puzzled as to why I am posting this here, except that I remember
several people telling me last time that I shouldn't have said yes
then changed my mind, I argued with her, blah blah blah. Well, I was
calm and maybe a tiny bit apologetic, but I said no and still got the
same result.
I see that if I act like a parent then I don't get to see my daughter
anymore. Please show me where my reality is distorted, because I know
it gets that way. Is there even a positive perspective to this?
With hope and heart,
Kathleen
--
If you are humble nothing will touch you, neither praise nor disgrace,
because you know what you are.
~Mother Theresa
Wendy
"Kathleen" <lovebi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bu8lvn$ep0qj$1...@ID-108718.news.uni-berlin.de...
>1) I've been very accomodating with her and her
> friends for a while. She's done a LOT of things with her friends
> lately, and I just started a Friday night thing at our church and I
> told her a while back that she wouldn't be able to go like we were
> anymore, because of all the extra stuff we do here. She agreed back
> then that she understood that. This is the first time I have said no
> since labor day - remember that? I don't approve of her dating, and
> this guy is a senior who I already overheard her tell someone he is
> "making moves" on her). Of course that wasn't good enough, she got a
> tiny bit pissy and we got off the phone and I thought "Wow, that
> wasn't as bad as I thought it would be." I anticipated her getting
> pissy and telling me she wasn't going to come then.
Kathleen, are you sure "making moves" doesn't just mean flirting and showing
interest? Young people seem to use terms like going out to mean "hang
around with", so making moves may mean something else too.
The other thing is that what you are saying to her by not allowing her to go
on a date is that you don't trust her to act responsibly. Sure he's a
senior, and you are anxious about her ability to handle any situation she
might find herself in, but saying no implies that you don't think she has
the ability to judge who she dates or to control the situation. Now if you
really don't trust her judgement or ability to look after herself, now is
the time to address that.
> Somehow I just have to endure this, I'm thinking. I could take him to
> court and bring contempt charges, but I don't see that really solving
> anything. Can the court force them to respect me, or pretend to? Can
> the court make her into a non-selfish teenager? My human self wants
> BF and BF to see how wrong they are being about this, but my spiritual
> self says that isn't going to matter. And both selfs say that I dread
> the stress of that kind of action. Although I *could* go through
> domestic relations... I don't see anyone making her come. And
> wouldn't she just resent us more for causing her BF and BF
> problems? I just don't see anything positive coming from it.
I don't see any point forcing her to come or forcing him to make her come.
I do, however, see that it's important for you to talk through why you don't
think she's ready to date.
> I see that if I act like a parent then I don't get to see my daughter
> anymore. Please show me where my reality is distorted, because I know
> it gets that way. Is there even a positive perspective to this?
But is acting like a parent just making rules, or is it dealing with the
issues that lie behind the rules?
Certainly, it isn't easy if she can just stay away and get her own way, but
if I felt strongly about the dating thing I'd be discussing the reasons with
her and her father to trying to reach agreement about how to proceed.
{{{{{Hugs}}}}} anyway, as I am sympathetic. I've got my own children issues
at the moment, but it will take me a while to articulate them.
Wendy
Deborah M Riel
Kathleen <lovebi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Somehow I just have to endure this, I'm thinking. I could take him to
>court and bring contempt charges, but I don't see that really solving
>anything. Can the court force them to respect me, or pretend to? Can
>the court make her into a non-selfish teenager? My human self wants
>BF and BF to see how wrong they are being about this, but my spiritual
>self says that isn't going to matter. And both selfs say that I dread
>the stress of that kind of action. Although I *could* go through
>domestic relations... I don't see anyone making her come. And
>wouldn't she just resent us more for causing her BF and BF
>problems? I just don't see anything positive coming from it.
Kathleen, my son does this with his father. He's supposed to go there
on Tuesday nights and Saturday nights. The older he is, the less he
wants to go. There are probably many ways in which this situation
differs from yours, but kids in high school live almost 100% for their
friends and their social lives. Those are the most important
relationships in their lives at this age, and I really think that to
stand in the way of them is to drive a wedge between you and your
child. The hardest part of parenting my teen is to stand back and let
him form these relationships that are independent of me.
In my son's case, his father often tells him that either he can't have
his friends come over, or he says they can then he changes his mind.
At that point, my son refuses to go. This is not the only problem the
two of them have with each other, but it is a deal breaker with my
son.
Their interaction with each other, and their relationship with each
other is not something I, as the CP, am in control of. I can ask if
he's going to his dad's house. I can suggest that he call. I can
suggest he try to work things out differently. But, I'm not going to
become involved to the point of forcing him to go there. I'm not
going to pack him into the car and drive him there against his will.
He's in high school, not a small child anymore. His dad recently
told him that if he doesn't start going there according to the schedule,
he was going to take the matter to court. This did *nothing* to foster
a better relationship between the two of them, and only caused my son to
further dig in his heels against him. He feels little but contempt
for those kinds of strong-arm tactics.
I'm sure it hurts my ex to have his son refuse to see him. But,
there's a long history of bad relationship between the two of them
that's more than a little bit because of my ex's inflexibility.
I think it's a mistake to place the blame or responsibility for your
relationship with your daughter on your ex. The two of you have to
forge your own way. The court is not going to help your cause with
this. The court has it's place as a way to force a parent to allow
the other parent access to a young child, but if you value a chance to
keep a relationship with your teen, don't use that tactic--you'll just
become a bully in her eyes.
Deb R.
Tracey
Yah, Kathleen, that's about the sum of it.
>I could take him to court and bring contempt charges, but
>I don't see that really solving anything.
I don't either.
>Can the court force them to respect me, or pretend to?
No to the 'force them to respect me', a very slight pos-
sibility on the 'pretend to', but that assumes that the
people in question *want* to 'pretend to' and that the
consequences to them not pretending are such that pre-
tending is seen as the easiest way to go. Unfortunately
for you (from what I remember), it's more likely that
people who want to retain a relationship with us will
be the ones that opt for 'pretending'.
>Can the court make her into a non-selfish teenager?
No.
>My human self wants BF and BF to see how wrong they are
>being about this, but my spiritual self says that isn't
>going to matter.
I'm with your spiritual self. Sorta. Not so much that it
isn't going to matter but more that it's highly unlikely
that they will see that they are wrong.
>And both selfs say that I dread the stress of that kind
>of action.
Can't blame you, Kathleen, especially when the outcome is
so uncertain and the possibility of it all blowing up is
so high.
>Although I *could* go through domestic relations... I
>don't see anyone making her come.
The thing with this is that you really have to look at all
the possible outcomes. (Well, I would. I know how that drives
some people crazy.) Is it possible that someone somwhere
somehow would decide that yes, your daughter *must* come
to your house for visitation. Sure, I think it's possible.
But what then? A court/social worker/Department of Whatever
ruling that says 'You must go visit your mother during her
scheduled time' is just a piece of paper. It's entirely
too easy to just say 'I don't care what they say, I'm not
gonna go if I don't wanna.' And then what do you do? How
far are you going to be willing to take it? Have your ex
thrown into jail for not forcing her to go? Have your
daughter thrown in jail for not coming?
Don't take this as ragging on you because I'm not. Although
I've never been in the position you are in, I think I can
imagine how difficult it is to see what you believe is your
daughter slipping away from you and to want to do anything
and everything to keep that from happening. But, I've also
seen cases where the 'anything and everything' just ends
up pushing a child farther and farther away.
>And wouldn't she just resent us more for causing her BF and
>BF problems?
Possibly. Maybe even likely.
>I just don't see anything positive coming from it.
I think there is a possibility that something positive
can come from it but I think it's just as likely that
it won't. It's up to you to decide if the risk is worth
it.
>They still haven't served me papers about the CS. I
>don't know what's going on there.
One thought. Try to document as well as you can the reasons
why your daughter is refusing to spend time with you. With
a CS court appearance looming, it would seem that these
weekends she's not with you could be used by your ex to
justify CS (or an increase, I forget which it is.)
>I am puzzled as to why I am posting this here, except that
>I remember several people telling me last time that I
>shouldn't have said yes then changed my mind, I argued with
>her, blah blah blah. Well, I was calm and maybe a tiny bit
>apologetic, but I said no and still got the same result.
Well, I don't remember that thread and what exactly was
said, but I would be surprised if the people who said what
they said meant that handling it differently would instantly
result in a different result.
>I see that if I act like a parent then I don't get to see
>my daughter anymore.
From personal experience, I sadly know that that is sometimes
what happens.
>Please show me where my reality is distorted, because I know
>it gets that way. Is there even a positive perspective to
>this?
The best I can say, Kathleen, is that hopefully someday it
will all work out. I don't know if you remember, but DH went
through this for years (and still is going through it now.)
His main goal for a lot of years after his divorce seemed to
be keep his children from being mad at him. His way of ensur-
ing that was to not be the type of parent he is and instead
keeping things light and happy and conflict free with them.
When they reached the magical age of 18, he started to let
his 'real parent' side show and, almost at the first instance,
the kids were gone, out of his life completely. Now, the
oldest two (26 and 24) are back in his life again but the
youngest (20) is not. I know this is Monday morning parenting,
but, IMO, his biggest mistake was to not parent after his
divorce and the transition from not parenting to parenting
at that extremely difficult to handle age of 18 was not
taken well.
I doubt if any of this helped, Kathleen, but I'm thinking of
you.
Tracey
Kathleen
sense now.
Kathleen
showing
: interest? Young people seem to use terms like going out to mean
"hang
: around with", so making moves may mean something else too.
:
: The other thing is that what you are saying to her by not allowing
her to go
: on a date is that you don't trust her to act responsibly. Sure he's
a
: senior, and you are anxious about her ability to handle any
situation she
: might find herself in, but saying no implies that you don't think
she has
: the ability to judge who she dates or to control the situation. Now
if you
: really don't trust her judgement or ability to look after herself,
now is
: the time to address that.
I need to think about this.
I *don't* trust her to act responsibly.
And she failed two classes this semester, but that is honestly just
another justification for me.
I will get back to this later!
With hope and heart,
Kathleen
:
: I don't see any point forcing her to come or forcing him to make her
Kathleen
I agree with you, but the thing is she loves to come. The only times
she throws a fit is when I say no to something she wants - and they
always say yes. So in that respect I hold them responsible. They are
encouraging her to disrespect me, I believe. In fact in this case I
think it's blatant.
I understand that she's a teen and this is teen stuff, but what parent
doesn't say no occasionally?
Kathleen
: will all work out. I don't know if you remember, but DH went
: through this for years (and still is going through it now.)
: His main goal for a lot of years after his divorce seemed to
: be keep his children from being mad at him. His way of ensur-
: ing that was to not be the type of parent he is and instead
: keeping things light and happy and conflict free with them.
: When they reached the magical age of 18, he started to let
: his 'real parent' side show and, almost at the first instance,
: the kids were gone, out of his life completely. Now, the
: oldest two (26 and 24) are back in his life again but the
: youngest (20) is not. I know this is Monday morning parenting,
: but, IMO, his biggest mistake was to not parent after his
: divorce and the transition from not parenting to parenting
: at that extremely difficult to handle age of 18 was not
: taken well.
:
: I doubt if any of this helped, Kathleen, but I'm thinking of
: you.
:
: Tracey
It did help. I can't just be all happy and light with her - I guess
the difficult part is to redefine how I can possibly 'parent' this
child at all. I'm sure that with time it will work out.
I'm getting better at this. My day has not been ruined, in fact it
has been somewhat joyous. I can see progress, and I can occasionally
see this somewhat objectively.
Brenna2b
>>The only times she throws a fit is when I say no to something she wants - and
they
always say yes. So in that respect I hold them responsible. They are
encouraging her to disrespect me, I believe. In fact in this case I
think it's blatant.>>
It might help you to look at it from the other side. Maybe they don't see it
as saying yes to something you said no to, but instead as you saying no to
something they already said she could do. Don't they already allow her to date
this boy? So by your saying no, aren't you undermining their decision, as much
as they are yours? Perhaps they think you are disrespecting them and their
decision to allow her to date.
I'm not trying to say you don't have the right to decide what your daughter can
do while she's with you, just to point out that supporting the decisions of the
other parent works both ways.
Brenna
Deborah M Riel
Kathleen <lovebi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>I agree with you, but the thing is she loves to come. The only times
>she throws a fit is when I say no to something she wants - and they
>always say yes. So in that respect I hold them responsible. They are
>encouraging her to disrespect me, I believe. In fact in this case I
>think it's blatant.
>
>I understand that she's a teen and this is teen stuff, but what parent
>doesn't say no occasionally?
>With hope and heart,
>Kathleen
>
Of course we all say no occasionally. I say no to things my ex
allows. My son can be pretty good at playing this system.
But, I don't think his dad does this to encourage disrespect of me. I
think he just doesn't see it the same way as I do. So be it. I've
done my parenting job by explaining my viewpoints and reasons for them
to my son, and if he disagrees and finds a legitimate way around them
through his other parent, then that's out of my control. I don't
think I could (or should) force my ex to parent my way, and I wouldn't
allow him to force me to parent his way. That's a mixed blessing of
being divorced.
Deb R.
Pat
> I can't just be all happy and light with her - I guess the difficult part
is to redefine how I can possibly 'parent' this child at all. I'm sure that
with time it will work out.
((((((((((Kathleen))))))))))
I don't know if you know this, but my oldest daughter went to live with her
dad for 5 years. Honestly, she made my life, and the life of her brothers
and sister, a living hell till I gave in.
I remember feeling that I was out of her loop, so to speak. Her dad and SM
pretty much raised her for 5 years while I sat in the background. I was her
mom, you bet, but she wanted more material things than I could give so she
went to live with the persons who promised her the world. We visited as
much as she would allow, and I remember taking the back seat MANY times to
things that she preferred to do. I still believe that her dad involved her
in as many things as he could, just so I couldn't see her as much as I
wanted to.
She's back in my life now, 150%. It took her alot of growing up and to
finally *see* why I couldn't stay with her dad. Before then, she believed
he was the underdog and was wronged by me wanting our divorce. She lived
with him from the age of about 11 till she was 16.
I'm not sure what my point is exactly, but I hope to let you know that it
DOES get better!!!!
HUGE HUGS!
Pat
Anne Robotti
<lovebi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I agree with you, but the thing is she loves to come. The only times
>she throws a fit is when I say no to something she wants - and they
>always say yes. So in that respect I hold them responsible. They are
>encouraging her to disrespect me, I believe. In fact in this case I
>think it's blatant.
>
>I understand that she's a teen and this is teen stuff, but what parent
>doesn't say no occasionally?
And the thing is, I don't think that, as a parent, you can allow
yourself to be held hostage by the whole "Dad lets me" or "Mom lets me
so I'm not coming to your house" thing. I mean, yeah, sometimes there
are things Mom's going to let you do. If you want to be there, go for
it. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out if you're
that shallow and usatory. But our house is our house, and we make
rules based on what we think is best for you. We're not strongarmed
into it by the threat you might leave. (Did I say threat? Did I mean
promise?)
Anne
Kathleen
Yes, I quit supporting their decisions when they threatened her with
"If you don't do this, your Mom will follow you around all day at
middle school" and then called me and cussed and screamed at me and
told me what a "good parent" would do (what they wanted, of course).
That was when all this trouble started, when they started telling her
things like "you could do that if you lived with us" and "we would let
you do this stuff" and "your Mom got pregnant with you on purpose so
your Dad would marry her" and "if you ever decide you don't want to
live here anymore pack your things, your Dad will never speak to you
again".
I tried to think of a way I could respond to this without sarcasm, but
I just couldn't. I did and still do respect their desicions. And
always have. I just don't agree with them, and the way I am is MUCH
different from their brainwashing techniques.
I do appreciate your input, I am just close to the "bend over and pass
the KY" to be objective at this moment.
Kathleen
Making different rules is one thing. Telling your kid that you will
let them do "X" if they skip their time with the other parent is, at
least in my mind, totally different things.
But I'm sure I do blame them for more than their share. However, I
didn't blame them for this crap until I started hearing all the crap
they had been telling her. It's hard to have any positive feelings
about them when I've seen and heard the things I've seen and heard.
With hpoe and heart,
Kathleen
Lori
Lori
"Kathleen" <lovebi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bu8lvn$ep0qj$1...@ID-108718.news.uni-berlin.de...
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Kathleen
: Top post to ask how old Kayla is?
: Lori
jane
>anymore. Please show me where my reality is distorted, because I know
>it gets that way. Is there even a positive perspective to this?
Sure there is. Your daughter is growing up. She's learning a lot about life
and relationships and choices.
When we make decisions, we mentally weigh the good things and the bad things
about each choice in our heads. We try to figure out which one gets us the
most of what we want.
This is not a skill to be sneered at. Did you ever take 4 year old to Baskin
Robbins? They can spend hours, literally, deciding what flavor ice cream or
yoghurt they want in a cup or a cone. And when they're 4, if you try to narrow
it down to ice cream or yoghurt or cup or cone, they can be hugely indignant
that they're not getting to have whatever you ruled out.
Then when they're teens, they just lose their minds. Half the time they're
frozen in the headlights and can't make a decision at all (...but I want A AND
B!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!), and the other half the time they base the decision on
one all-important factor, which changes every half hour along with the
decision.
I know you hate it that whether or not your daughter comes to your house is her
decision. But it is. And it sounds as though she's learning to make a
rational decision about it. "If I go to Mom's, I can do X and Y and Z, but if
I don't I can go out with Tony."
It's completely understandable that you are hurt that going out with Tony
trumps spending time with you. But it's not all for naught.
jane
Deborah M Riel
Kathleen <lovebi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Making different rules is one thing. Telling your kid that you will
>let them do "X" if they skip their time with the other parent is, at
>least in my mind, totally different things.
>
>But I'm sure I do blame them for more than their share. However, I
>didn't blame them for this crap until I started hearing all the crap
>they had been telling her. It's hard to have any positive feelings
>about them when I've seen and heard the things I've seen and heard.
>With hpoe and heart,
>Kathleen
I'm trying to figure out how to say what I'm trying to get at here...
Sure it sucks to know that they tell her she can do "X" if skips her
time with you, but it sounds kind of desperate, don't you think? Sure
she'll play that system to get the outcome she wants--she's a
teenager.
But, you don't have to play into all that. You don't even have to
know what they tell her while she's with them, unless she tells you.
And, I think if she's telling you, she probably thinks they're wrong
to say it on some level.
If she usually loves to come to see you, I doubt she has stopped
loving to come to see you. She just wants to go out with the cool
senior guy, and that takes precedence over her mom any day when you're
15. So, your ex has maybe seen that as his opening, and is using it.
It won't last forever if you don't respond in a strong-armed way.
Just tell her that your way of being a parent is the way you think is
right, and that it's your job to do what you think is right whether or
not she agrees with it. Let her know that you're open to
honest discussion. *Be* open to honest discussion, even if that means
changing your position sometimes, or striking a compromise. Be flexible.
Deb R.
Kathleen
: loving to come to see you. She just wants to go out with the cool
: senior guy, and that takes precedence over her mom any day when
you're
: 15. So, your ex has maybe seen that as his opening, and is using
it.
: It won't last forever if you don't respond in a strong-armed way.
: Just tell her that your way of being a parent is the way you think
is
: right, and that it's your job to do what you think is right whether
or
: not she agrees with it. Let her know that you're open to
: honest discussion. *Be* open to honest discussion, even if that
means
: changing your position sometimes, or striking a compromise. Be
flexible.
:
: Deb R.
That's the hard part. The thing is, I told her I can't run her to her
friend's every time that she comes here (like I have been). I think I
was being flexible, but this time I said no.
(Do you hear the whiny voice?) Thanks Deb for your input. You are
right, I need to just step back a bit and see this for what it is -
more teen stuff.
Kathleen
If she picked Mom, SD and baby sis over boyfriend, there would
probably be something wrong there.
It makes so much sense when I can just take the emotion out of it.
With hope and heart,
Kathleen
: Sure there is. Your daughter is growing up. She's learning a lot