Insights requested (a long post)
david penton
My first post. . .on a topic that may be old, but brand new to me.
For the past six months I have been dating a woman who has three children
(ages 9, 11, and 14). My children are adults - the younger one (daughter 20
yrs. old) still lives with me.
My woman friend's children are bright and pleasant in many ways. However, I
am having considerable difficulty accepting their behaviour in certain
situations. The problem is that the children appear to feel they ought to
be allowed to set the agenda whenever they interact with adults.
For example, they typically completely ignore adults (me, their mother,
store clerks, etc.) whenever they choose. When I come to visit at their
mother's house, they frequently will refuse to greet me or even acknowledge
my presence. They will often not respond when I speak to them. They accept
gifts and various gestures from me (and others) without any recognition,
much less thanks, unless their mother prods them to show "gratitude."
They also insist on having the food that they prefer at meals. They will
only eat a limited range of things, and will have tantrums or become
insulting if there is something they do not like or recognize on the table.
(I pride myself on my cooking. It does tend toward the exotic, but these
kids will, practically speaking, only eat wieners and mashed potatoes.)
The above examples are only instances of a general pattern. I suppose that
their behaviour is partly due to their mother's way of rearing them. She is
a very mild, patient woman - which I love about her.
The problem is, I probably cannot accept the children's behaviour. It is
clear that my girlfriend wants me to be involved with her children and to
share the parenting load. My own style is not NEARLY as yielding as hers.
Bluntly expressed, I expect to set the agenda with children, while making
some allowance for their need for freedom and control over their lives.
At some point I must decide whether to take on the challenge of a blended
family. This problem (among others) is causing me to have misgivings.
Your wisdom and insight would be appreciated.
Tracey
>The problem is, I probably cannot accept the children's behaviour.
David
It looks like you're asking yourself the right questions at what
is probably just about the right time (i.e., before you get into
the 'parent' role with the kids and before there is a committed
relationship <not to say you might not be committed to only dating
this one woman, but you're not engaged or married yet.>)
IMO, different parenting styles are not always a cause for problems
IF both people get together and make ground rules that will ensure
that they will uphold the decisions the other one makes and that
there is a system in place for finding compromises on what you
disagree about.
Unfortunately, I think alot of people never do that, or are unable
to do it effectively.
In my situation (which is a bit unusual, I have to admit), on the
one occasion that my husband was able to meet our son before our
wedding, I got the wrong impression of what his parenting style
is. Well, that's not completely true. I saw how the parenting style
he has for his non-resident children, which is completely different
than the parenting style for his resident children. To say that we
have different parenting styles is an understatement, and, 3 and 1/2
years into our marriage, we are finally getting past the 'Fine, if
you don't like the way this is happening, then I won't have anything
to do with it' stage, and I think we are finally starting to have
a semi-workable situation figured out.
Have you raised your concerns with your girlfriend? I'm not really
sure why, if you're not in a more committed relationship than dating,
she wants you to get more involved with parenting the children. Are
you talking about moving in together or getting married? Have you
talked about what is going to happen if your styles conflict? And
how the kids are going to react if they are 'suddenly' going from
her parenting style to yours? (Hint: Probably not good, you know.)
Tracey
<who seems to have lost any wisdom and insight that she ever had,
if she did ever have any>
Dylan's Mom
Your post says it all I'm afraid " I probably cannot accept the children's
behaviour". I think in these situations given their ages that what you see
is what you get. The behavior you describe such as ignoring you is just
plain rude and you have to consider who raised them up to be that way. I
just now as an adult feel comfortable calling some of my parents friends by
their first names - I would never enter a room with all of them + my
parents in it and not great each person. I think if you are not already
too involved my advice based on my experience is cut and run, or just very
casually date and don't spend much time around the kids - they aren't going
away for a very, very, very long time. Good luck to you.
--
Teri....@Compaqnospam.com
david penton <djpe...@email.msn.com> wrote in article
<#VnNyx5L...@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>...
david penton
Tracey wrote in message <34D5EC...@earthlink.net>...
(David wrote:)
>>The problem is, I probably cannot accept the children's behaviour.
>
>Have you raised your concerns with your girlfriend? I'm not really
>sure why, if you're not in a more committed relationship than dating,
>she wants you to get more involved with parenting the children. Are
>you talking about moving in together or getting married? Have you
>talked about what is going to happen if your styles conflict? And
>how the kids are going to react if they are 'suddenly' going from
>her parenting style to yours? (Hint: Probably not good, you know.)
>
Yes, I have raised it with her. I am having trouble gauging her reaction.
She says she does not approve of her children's behaviour either. It may be
that she is only attempting to be agreeable, but it appears more likely to
me that she actually does want her children to behave differently. She
often is very exhausted and exasperated with them (in a mild sort of way).
She seems to want help with the parenting and disciplining of the kids, but,
the family culture shock might be too much for all of us.
Your point is well taken - thanks. It is clearly time for us to have a
heart-to-heart about it.
-- Dave --
Vicki Robinson
In a previous article, "david penton" <djpe...@email.msn.com> said:
>My first post. . .on a topic that may be old, but brand new to me.
>
David, I've composed a couple of responses to your note, but I think I
can do no better than to direct you to dejanews, to check several
posts from Hans Froese in alt.support.step-parents. Look for the
thread entitled "Help!" Hans was addressing a question that was
*very* similar to yours, and was answering from the point of view of a
new stepfather. Very wise words. It will very definitely be worth
the time and trouble to look them up!
Vicki
--
Visit our wedding at http://www.rit.edu/~vjrnts/wedding.html and
sign our guest book! The alt.folklore.urban FAQ and archive can
be found at http://www.urbanlegends.com. Take a look, if you
have a week to spare.
mer...@hotmail.com
In article <#VnNyx5L...@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>,
"david penton" <djpe...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>
> My first post. . .on a topic that may be old, but brand new to me.
>
> (ages 9, 11, and 14). My children are adults - the younger one (daughter 20
> yrs. old) still lives with me.
>
> My woman friend's children are bright and pleasant in many ways. However, I
> am having considerable difficulty accepting their behaviour in certain
> situations. The problem is that the children appear to feel they ought to
> be allowed to set the agenda whenever they interact with adults.
> The above examples are only instances of a general pattern. I suppose that
> their behaviour is partly due to their mother's way of rearing them. She is
> a very mild, patient woman - which I love about her.
>
> The problem is, I probably cannot accept the children's behaviour. It is
> clear that my girlfriend wants me to be involved with her children and to
> share the parenting load. My own style is not NEARLY as yielding as hers.
> Bluntly expressed, I expect to set the agenda with children, while making
> some allowance for their need for freedom and control over their lives.
Their behaviour is PARTLY due to their mother's way of rearing? Try ...
primarily, almost entirely, directly, etc.
Two people with different parenting styles can manage to work things out
-- but you have got to talk with your girlfriend and see if this is
possible. Does she even perceive her children's behavior as rude?
My husband is a great deal more laid-back, and I am more directive -- his
kids are older (11 and 14 when we met). I've given up on some of my
ideals, my husband has gone along with some of my wishes to give the kids
more direction.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Mayhem3425
>My husband is a great deal more laid-back, and I am more directive -- his
>kids are older (11 and 14 when we met). I've given up on some of my
>ideals, my husband has gone along with some of my wishes to give the kids
>more direction.
>
>
My parenting style with my kids aged 6 and 8 was much more laid back than what
my new wife was used to. But by talking about it a lot, before we were married
and continuously ever since, things have worked out acceptably so far. I came
to realize that my kids needed more consistency and structure, and that I
gradually needed to start expecting them to stop acting like two-year-olds. My
wife's input has made me a better parent. At the same time, she has come to
realize that her own attitudes were shaped by her own parents, who were rigid
and severe with her. She knows she doesn't want to mimic that -- even though
all parents have a strong tendency to raise their kids as they were raised.
But the key to this issue is to talk about it. Start talking to your intended
before you get formally engaged. Start working on those kids in a positive way.
Reward them for trying new foods. Etc. There may be some fireworks at first,
but if you both have the courage to work through it and establish some
benevolent adult authority and higher expectations about common courtesy etc.,
everyone will be happier, including mom and the kids.
The big mistake here would be to go ahead and get into a committed relationship
and hope that things will somehow change for the better without a lot of effort
on everyone's part.
Tracey
>She says she does not approve of her children's behaviour either.
>It may be that she is only attempting to be agreeable, but it
>appears more likely to me that she actually does want her children
>to behave differently. She often is very exhausted and exasperated
>with them (in a mild sort of way). She seems to want help with the >parenting and disciplining of the kids, but, the family culture shock
>might be too much for all of us.
David
When I read your post, I thought 'Your girlfriend doesn't like her
children's behavior, but isn't able to effect any changes for what-
ever reason, and wants you to jump in and do it.' That may not be
what you meant, and that may not be what she means, but it seems
that you are being 'set up' (unintentionally, I hope) to be the
'bad guy', David.
IMO, instead of you 'helping' her with the parenting and disciplining
of the kids, it would probably be much better if you and her sat down
and discussed your different parenting styles and how *she* could
change hers in the hopes of changing her children's behavior instead
of you jumping in and doing it *for* her. If she is not willing or
able to modify her parenting style, you are probably going to be
seen as the 'heavy' and probably nothing you do is going to change
the children's behavior.
Good luck
Tracey
jane lawrence
david penton wrote:
>
> My first post. . .on a topic that may be old, but brand new to me.
>
> For the past six months I have been dating a woman who has three children
> (ages 9, 11, and 14). My children are adults - the younger one (daughter 20
> yrs. old) still lives with me.
>
> My woman friend's children are bright and pleasant in many ways. However, I
> am having considerable difficulty accepting their behaviour in certain
> situations. The problem is that the children appear to feel they ought to
> be allowed to set the agenda whenever they interact with adults.
>
> store clerks, etc.) whenever they choose. When I come to visit at their
> mother's house, they frequently will refuse to greet me or even acknowledge
> my presence. They will often not respond when I speak to them. They accept
> gifts and various gestures from me (and others) without any recognition,
> much less thanks, unless their mother prods them to show "gratitude."
>
> They also insist on having the food that they prefer at meals. They will
> only eat a limited range of things, and will have tantrums or become
> insulting if there is something they do not like or recognize on the table.
> (I pride myself on my cooking. It does tend toward the exotic, but these
> kids will, practically speaking, only eat wieners and mashed potatoes.)
>
> their behaviour is partly due to their mother's way of rearing them. She is
> a very mild, patient woman - which I love about her.
>
> The problem is, I probably cannot accept the children's behaviour. It is
> clear that my girlfriend wants me to be involved with her children and to
> share the parenting load. My own style is not NEARLY as yielding as hers.
> Bluntly expressed, I expect to set the agenda with children, while making
> some allowance for their need for freedom and control over their lives.
>
> family. This problem (among others) is causing me to have misgivings.
>
> Your wisdom and insight would be appreciated.
I think you have to try to look at this from
the kids'
perspective. You are some stranger who takes
their mother's
attention away and wants to tell them what to
do. You don't
like the way they talk, act, or eat. You cook
weird, disgusting
food and expect them to eat it. You talk about
them behind their backs. Worst of all, you
"expect to set the
agenda with [them]." You must see that you are
their enemy.
Your girlfriend's children are people just like
you. You all
have your own interests. You all want to get
your own way. Your needs, desires, and opinions
are no more valid than theirs. They do not like
you or want you in their lives. You are not
their parent. They do not and will not ever want
to obey you. They want control of their lives at
least as much as you do. When you consider that
these kids probably want to slit your throat in
your sleep, unenthusiastic grunting at your
arrival is actually quite a feat.
So back off. If you look at the situation from
a little distance, it
should be much easier to deal with. Besides, if
you pull back a
little, then you and the kids won't be so
polarized. Let go of
absolutely everything you can. Start with the
food - they don't
want to eat your food anymore than you want to
eat mashed
potatoes and wieners every night. When you are
cooking for the
family, make what you like and want to share
with people, but
also include the hot dogs or macaroni and cheese
that they would
like. They are your guests. Your job as host
is to please
them. Treat them with the same respect and
consideration that
you would your boss.
Next, never use the word "agenda" again. Don't
even think it.
You should be treating each other with respect
and consideration. No one should be setting any
agendas. This is not a business meeting.
Within your own limits, ignore their behavior.
You are not responsible for the way they treat
others. If you wish to influence them, then set
a good example. If you cannot tolerate their
company, do not go places with them. If they
are rude to you, treat them as you would any
other rude person.
As far as interaction with the children goes,
just evaluate your position, set your limits,
and stick to them. Be clear with your
girlfriend. You don't have to tell her you
think she is an indulgent, mollycoddling,
doormat. Just explain that you won't go to a
restaurant with them because it embarrasses you
when the kids have a food fight. Or that you
can't hear the symphony when little johnny is
playing his kazoo. Whatever the precise issues
are, just tell her.
Finally, give up this whole idea of sharing the
"parenting load." I can't believe your
girlfriend actually wants you to. I don't know
where the father is, but she has been doing this
for 14 years now, and has her own system for
child rearing. As you say, it differs
substantially from your own. If and when you
decide to blend families, you can raise these
issues of authority and responsibility then.
xyzj...@primary.net
From experience: This will not work. I'm sorry for you.
Move on.
Jeffrey
remove xyz to reply
Mayhem3425
> If and when you
>decide to blend families, you can raise these
>issues of authority and responsibility then.
The person who wrote this gave a lot of good advice, but this last bit is off
the mark. You are to be commended for thinking about this parenting situation
BEFORE you have tied the knot. A lot of people on this group probably wish they
had done that. Issues involving these kids are going to be the NUMBER ONE
CHALLENGE in this marriage, if it occurs. Talk it over now. Reach agreement
now. Recognize that her parenting style is not going to become identical with
yours -- she has a right to handle her kids her way. But she can't be happy
with the way things are going. And the kids aren't happy either. They'll never
admit it, but they want some direction from the adults in their lives. Get
together with your girlfriend and talk about it. Get her to think and talk
about what she wants and doesn't want from you in this area. Take a parenting
class together. Bring in a professional counselor. Whatever. But deal with it,
talk about it daily. It's an ongoing challenge you will have to face together,
as a team.
Mayhem3425
>From experience: This will not work. I'm sorry for you.
>
>Move on.
>
>
From experience: It will be a challenge. You'll be at wits end sometimes. But
if you two love each other enough, you can make some headway with those kids.
It might work, it could work, if you both are willing to give it all you've
got, and then give it a little more than you thought you could give. You've got
to have a solid relationship where all the emotions are on the table and you
can reach agreement about rules, consequences and all the other aspects of
parenting.
david penton
Mayhem3425 wrote in message
<19980207191...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
>> If and when you
>>decide to blend families, you can raise these
>>issues of authority and responsibility then.
>
Dave Penton replies:
Thanks. Your thoughts are constructive - just as in your previous posts.
But: you say that the person who wrote the post gave a lot of good advice.
I am not very expert at using the newsgroup software - I cannot see the post
to which Mayhem3425 is responding on the newsgroup, so I am reproducing it
below . It contains a lot of rather violent language that does not reflect
the relationship between my girlfriend and her children and me AT ALL.
Perhaps it is not the best thing to get caught in a cycle of blasting each
other on these newsgroups. Despite that, I think her post is worth some
analysis.
She said:
>>I think you have to try to look at this from
>>the kids'
>>perspective. You are some stranger who takes
>>their mother's
>>attention away and wants to tell them what to
>>do. You don't
>>like the way they talk, act, or eat. You cook
>>weird, disgusting
>>food and expect them to eat it. You talk about
>>them behind their backs. Worst of all, you
>>"expect to set the
>>agenda with [them]." You must see that you are
>>their enemy.
Their enemy? I do not see it that way, and I doubt the children do. For
one thing, the problems I described have resulted in very little conflict -
yet. (There has been some conflict.) I suppose I am "talking behind their
backs" by going on the newsgroup. I considered it an attempt on my part to
resolve a potential problem by giving it some thought in advance.
She said:
>>Your girlfriend's children are people just like
>>you. You all
>>have your own interests. You all want to get
>>your own way. Your needs, desires, and opinions
>>are no more valid than theirs. They do not like
>>you or want you in their lives.
I say:
How in heaven's name do you know whether the kids like or want me in their
lives? I may have come across as too negative in the original post. I like
the children. I expect they like me. I just have some difficulty with
(some of) their behaviour.
She said:
>>You are not
>>their parent. They do not and will not ever want
>>to obey you. They want control of their lives at
>>least as much as you do. When you consider that
>>these kids probably want to slit your throat in
>>your sleep, unenthusiastic grunting at your
>>arrival is actually quite a feat.
>>So back off.
I say:
Slit my throat in my sleep? Good grief. I put a post on the newsgroup to
seek some insights into resolving potential friction. You reduce the
relationship (falsely, I must say) to homicidal fantasies. If that is the
kind of feelings blended families evoke, there is no hope at all (which I do
NOT believe).
She said:
>>If you look at the situation from
>>a little distance, it
>>should be much easier to deal with. Besides, if
>>you pull back a
>>little, then you and the kids won't be so
>>polarized. Let go of
>>absolutely everything you can. Start with the
>>food - they don't
>>want to eat your food anymore than you want to
>>eat mashed
>>potatoes and wieners every night. When you are
>>cooking for the
>>family, make what you like and want to share
>>with people, but
>>also include the hot dogs or macaroni and cheese
>>that they would
>>like. They are your guests. Your job as host
>>is to please
>>them. Treat them with the same respect and
>>consideration that
>>you would your boss.
I say:
You suggest that I model my relationship with my girlfriend's children on
that of a host (me) and a guest (my boss). I doubt that such a model
accurately depicts the situation in blended families. While I would
certainly would not impose my peronal tastes upon a guest, I would, on the
other hand, feel quite free to refuse to invite an unpleasant guest back a
second time. Especially a guest who looked at food I prepared with some
effort and said "I am not eating this crap." With step children their will
be mutual obligation quite different than those that exist between
non-family hosts and guests. It will be difficult to just "not invite them
back."
She said:
>>Next, never use the word "agenda" again. Don't
>>even think it.
>>You should be treating each other with respect
>>and consideration. No one should be setting any
>>agendas. This is not a business meeting.
I say:
Well, perhaps my choice of words was poor. Talking about "agendas" probably
does have a certain "control freak" ring to it. I appreciate her comment on
treating each other with respect. To this point I have, for the most part,
been passive and have treated the children with respect, I think. My
frustration is precisely because they appear not feel any obligation to
treat me with respect.
She said:
>>Within your own limits, ignore their behavior.
>>You are not responsible for the way they treat
>>others. If you wish to influence them, then set
>>a good example. If you cannot tolerate their
>>company, do not go places with them. If they
>>are rude to you, treat them as you would any
>>other rude person.
>>As far as interaction with the children goes,
>>just evaluate your position, set your limits,
>>and stick to them. Be clear with your
>>girlfriend. You don't have to tell her you
>>think she is an indulgent, mollycoddling,
>>doormat. Just explain that you won't go to a
>>restaurant with them because it embarrasses you
>>when the kids have a food fight. Or that you
>>can't hear the symphony when little johnny is
>>playing his kazoo. Whatever the precise issues
>>are, just tell her.
I say:
Now that is advice is more constructive. Those are very good points. Once
again, though - these children will not just be "any other rude person." If
things continue to develop, the children will become to some extent
dependent upon me, and I in turn will will acquire moral, emotional, and
economic obligations to them. Can I just take or leave the kids as it suits
me?
She says:
>>Finally, give up this whole idea of sharing the
>>"parenting load." I can't believe your
>>girlfriend actually wants you to. I don't know
>>where the father is, but she has been doing this
>>for 14 years now, and has her own system for
>>child rearing. As you say, it differs
>>substantially from your own.
I say:
It would be all to easy for me to give up the idea of sharing the parenting
load. As far as I can tell, my girlfriend's husband has done far better
than a lot of men in keeping up his part. The children clearly love him.
However, the vast majority of the day to day effort is put in by my
girlfriend. She will expect a contribution from me. Does anyone think it
would be OK for me (for example) to refuse to drive the kids to their
swimming lesson - or help them with their homework - or contribute money for
a school field trip - just because I am not their biological father? I
doubt it. If my plan were simply to date my girlfriend, have sex with her,
and do all the fun stuff while treating her obligations to her children as
having nothing to do with me - well, I suppose I would not get very
favourable reviews on the newsgroup! But, if I give to the children, must I
do so absolutely without regard to how the children treat me in return?
She said:
>>If and when you
>>decide to blend families, you can raise these
>>issues of authority and responsibility then
I say:
Mayhem3425 (who wrote the post to which I am responding) said it best. I
want to think it through now before it becomes an unsolvable problem.
david penton
OK - Thanks everyone. I got some good advice (even though I didn't always
react very well in my subsequent posts). The message appears to be that I
should:
1. Think of it from the kids' point of view.
2. Give up on trying to impose all my own ways on them (relax a bit, I
guess).
3. Go slow & cultivate a good relationship with them over time.
4. Communicate with my girlfriend about it.
Also, some thought that it is just a losing situation, and it won't work.
Maybe so, but I am going to take the more positive advice, relax about it,
and see how it goes. Rome was not built in a day. My girlfriend AND her
children are people who are worth the effort and the risk. I hope I am
worth their effort and risk.
Just one other thing: If anyone knows of any good books on stepparenting,
please e-mail the title to me.
Thanks again. I think I will bail out on this thread now and try to put the
advice into practice.