Phone Calls
Cindy Martin
means these days, but - he has one.
At first, that was fine. I didn't have a problem with it.
Now, unfortunately, I'm fast developing a problem with this.
Now that summer is here, I have no idea how often they talk to each other
during the day while we're not here, but I do know that since 5:30 this
afternoon, she's called here three times looking for him. She didn't leave
a message the first time, I told her I'd have him call her back the second
time (2 1/2 hours after she called the first time - which was fine), she
just called again, not half an hour after she called the second time! And,
she's not even at home when she's calling - she's at a Church.
Last night, she called three times and they talked for probably half an hour
at a time. I wouldn't know though, because SS always takes the phone some
where else to talk to her (which, I'm horribly uncomfortable with, but...).
She called BACK at 9 p.m. and I told her our phone does NOT ring after 9. I
have a little one I'm putting to bed about that and unless it's an
emergency, it can wait until tomorrow. (I'm nicer than Mike on that one -
he thinks the phone should quit ringing at 8!)
Are there semi-established phone rules and/or etiquette or can I just start
snapping when the phone calls are getting out of hand. Which, in my
opinion, they already are.
Granted I didn't have a "normal" childhood, but if I called someone, I
waited for them to call me back - or I at least gave them several hours
before calling again. I was talking to a female co-worker today and she
said that she wasn't allowed to call boys when she was growing up. Her dad
had a rule that the boy would be doing the calling if he was interested, not
her. I like that rule, I wish this girl's dad had that rule.
I'm curious to know how others handle this situation. I feel like telling
this girl to back off and I haven't even met her yet!
Guess if worse comes to worse I could tell his mom he has a girlfriend.
He's about the same age she was when she had her first so I can just imagine
the conversations she'd be having with him.
Okay, parents of teen-agers, teach me the current etiquette on calling and
boyfriend/girlfriend relationships these days.
Cindy
Vicki Robinson
<Okay, parents of teen-agers, teach me the current etiquette on calling and
<boyfriend/girlfriend relationships these days.
Girls do call boys; the old saw about the boy having to do the calling
is about 30 years out of date.
If the two are just getting to know each other, then calling and
waiting for a callback (however long that takes) is de rigeur.
However, if they are an established couple, all bets are off and
they will call each other every 5 minutes 'round the clock, when
they're not e-mailing or riding their bikes over to each others'
houses.
Call the girl's parents, *don't* lay down the law, but ask them what
their rules are, and make sure you're all on the same page. (Stevie's
boyfriend's mom and I talked and agreed on, for example, that they are
*never* in either house without a parent present. Little sisters are
not adequate chaperonage.)
But lighten up a little, Cindy. Young love is compelling, and they
can't do a lot over the phone that's going to cause babies. Set your
limits as to time of calls, and maybe you want to make sure you've got
call waiting. That's another rule in our house. If a call comes in
while *I'm* on the phone, I can ignore it, but if the kids are home
and on the phone and I'm not there, they *must* answer the call
waiting tone, because I'm not going to tolerate an hour of busy
signals. Set limits, but don't let it bug you. This is
stereotypically teenaged behavior.
Vicki
--
Family and Divorce Mediation Resources
http://xcski.com/~mediator/
Cindy Martin
and another friend were at the house when he left for work. And couldn't
understand why I was just floored that he would do that. He just kept
saying, but xx is there, what are they going to do with him around?
Well, gee, he can drive and he drove her over to the house, do I need to say
anything else? Actually, I did because he still couldn't see my problem.
As for call waiting, we have everything - call waiting, Caller ID (which is
how I know she was calling from a Church), call notes, phone busy call
notes, the whole nine yards. We also have a second phone line that SS uses.
I keep making noises about taking that phone and NOT having it be wireless
so he can't wander all over the house with it. I just haven't done it yet.
"Vicki Robinson" <vjr...@xcski.com> wrote in message
news:9gbq4a$vs3$1...@allhats.xcski.com...
Melody R Baugher
<ima...@earthlink.com> wrote:
>Mike called me yesterday and said when he left the house, SS, girlfriend,
>and another friend were at the house when he left for work. And couldn't
>understand why I was just floored that he would do that. He just kept
>saying, but xx is there, what are they going to do with him around?
>Well, gee, he can drive and he drove her over to the house, do I need to say
>anything else? Actually, I did because he still couldn't see my problem.
>As for call waiting, we have everything - call waiting, Caller ID (which is
>how I know she was calling from a Church), call notes, phone busy call
>notes, the whole nine yards. We also have a second phone line that SS uses.
>I keep making noises about taking that phone and NOT having it be wireless
>so he can't wander all over the house with it. I just haven't done it yet.
I don't have any teenagers but I wonder what the results would be if
you were chatty to SS's girlfriend when she called. For instance, you
knew she called from church so you could have chatted about that.
Some possible good results would be that she wouldn't call so often,
you'd get to know her better, SS would make sure that she waited for
him to call her back, SS would be the first one to answer the phone -
thus creating a built-in receptionist when he's home. :) Course the
bad result could be that the girlfriend would decide that you're great
fun to chat to & stick on the phone a while even if SS isn't home. :)
Just some random thoughts.
Take care of yourself,
Melody
Lindy
They were on the phone constantly! We would just tell him to get off
the phone at a certain point, usually after 20-30 minutes. But, then
she would call again and want to talk some more!! She seemed too pushy
to me. Then they were trying to plan to get together at her house. SS
asked us if he could go over there. We told him no and that we said we
would discuss it another time. Then SS asks well, can she come over
here?? DH was actually thinking it would be alright. I didn't agree.
She is an 8th grader (now going to 9th). SS will be in 7th grade come
fall. Me teaching at their school I am lucky to know everyone of the
kids SS likes to hang around with. He may come to resent that one day.
LOL. I know that they didn't meet through the most respectable of
students. I didn't trust the whole situation.
I guess we need to establish phones rules around here.
Linda
Anne Robotti
Cindy Martin wrote:
> We also have a second phone line that SS uses.
> I keep making noises about taking that phone and NOT having it be wireless
> so he can't wander all over the house with it. I just haven't done it yet.
I don't get this. What do you expect him to do, talk to his girlfriend right
under
your nose? My stepdaughter's *twelve* and she takes the phone into the office
and shuts the door when her "boyfriend" calls. I put boyfriend in quotes because
neither of them is allowed to date yet. :-)
My personal solution to this whole problem would be to put a phone in the
kid's room and tell him that if I hear it ringing after <insert his bedtime
here>
it's coming out.
Lighten up Cindy, don't you remember your first love?
Anne
Anne Haas
>
>Anne
Maybe that's why she's concerned, Anne. *bg*
AnneH
"To the world you might be one person, but to one person you might
be the world."
Indyguy1
>Okay, SS (15) has a girlfriend. I'm not quite sure what, exactly, that
>means these days, but - he has one.
LOL, they usually call it *going out* around here, even though they rarely *go*
anywhere together.:)
>At first, that was fine. I didn't have a problem with it.
>Now, unfortunately, I'm fast developing a problem with this.
>Now that summer is here, I have no idea how often they talk to each other
>during the day while we're not here, but I do know that since 5:30 this
>afternoon, she's called here three times looking for him. She didn't leave
>a message the first time, I told her I'd have him call her back the second
>time (2 1/2 hours after she called the first time - which was fine), she
>just called again, not half an hour after she called the second time!
This is normal. Putting up with the phone calls is part of being a parent of a
teen.
And,
>she's not even at home when she's calling - she's at a Church.
Hey, that's probably a *good* thing! Much better than if the calls were coming
from a pool hall!
>Last night, she called three times and they talked for probably half an hour
>at a time.
And my guess would be there was a lot of *dead* time during those calls. Many
times teens don't even say anything to their b/f or g/f they just want to be
connected.
I wouldn't know though, because SS always takes the phone some
>where else to talk to her (which, I'm horribly uncomfortable with, but...).
Let this one go. Teens want privacy when talking to their SOs. This is one of
the breaking away and growing up rights of passage they want and need.
>She called BACK at 9 p.m. and I told her our phone does NOT ring after 9. I
>have a little one I'm putting to bed about that and unless it's an
>emergency, it can wait until tomorrow.
9pm during the summer is a bit early to shut off incoming calls for teens. 10pm
would be more realistic. Do you at least allow him to *make* calls after 9pm?
(I'm nicer than Mike on that one -
>he thinks the phone should quit ringing at 8!)
Your DH needs to understand when you have a teen in the house many consessions
will need to be made.:) Little things like phone calls aren't worth arguements,
proividing the rules are realistic.
>Are there semi-established phone rules and/or etiquette or can I just start
>snapping when the phone calls are getting out of hand.
Boys call girls AND girls call boys. Set a realistic time that you no longer
will allow incoming calls. Set a realistic time to prohibit outgoing calls.
Demand any time the call waiting beeps in he must answer it and all calls to
you or your husband take priority over his conversations.
The easiest way to avoid phone battles is to get SS his own line and phone in
his room. We gave each of our kids their own lines and phones as their 13th
bday gifts.
Which, in my
>opinion, they already are.
>Granted I didn't have a "normal" childhood, but if I called someone, I
>waited for them to call me back - or I at least gave them several hours
>before calling again.
LOL, so did I. But teens are different today.:)
I was talking to a female co-worker today and she
>said that she wasn't allowed to call boys when she was growing up.
Nor was I back in the 60's. But those gender lines are no longer in existence.
Her dad
>had a rule that the boy would be doing the calling if he was interested, not
>her. I like that rule, I wish this girl's dad had that rule.
I don't like that rule as a parent of daughters. It puts the males in the
drivers seat and the females in the backseat, when they should have the ability
to sit side by side.
>I'm curious to know how others handle this situation.
We gave then their own lines. Put a phone curfew on them, on school nights,
that increased as they got older.
I feel like telling
>this girl to back off and I haven't even met her yet!
That would be a BAD move. She isn't doing anything any other normal teenaged
girl is doing these days.
>Guess if worse comes to worse I could tell his mom he has a girlfriend.
>He's about the same age she was when she had her first so I can just imagine
>the conversations she'd be having with him.
>Okay, parents of teen-agers, teach me the current etiquette on calling and
>boyfriend/girlfriend relationships these days.
Keep in mind that teens see the phone as their *life line*. They use it more
for personal conversations than at any other age in life. It helps them
communicate with the oppossite sex in a self percieved safer way then face to
face.
It's not the teens that spend most of their home time on the phone with friends
of both sexes , but the ones who don't get or make any calls, that are to be
concerned about.
Hope this helped!
Indy
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>Cindy
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Geri and Brian
>>had a rule that the boy would be doing the calling if he was interested, not
>>her. I like that rule, I wish this girl's dad had that rule.
I am going to definitely be in the minority here, but I like that rule, too.
It worked fine for me when I was a teen and it worked fine for me three years
ago as an adult and was dating my (now) husband long-distance. This will
probably be the rule in our house, too, when SD is a teen. Times change, but
not always for the better, IMO. I hope my SD has better self-esteem than to be
a boy-chaser when she is of that age.
~~~~~~~~~~
Geri ^ ^
> ' ' <
~~~~~~~~~~
Geri and Brian
>drivers seat and the females in the backseat, when they should have the
>ability
>to sit side by side.
I forgot to add this to my other post. You know, IMO the side-by-side thing
doesn't really work in high school, because the hormones are raging too high to
be thinking about equality in relationships.
I don't see the rule as placing the girl in the backseat. I see it as the girl
placing enough value on herself not to have to chase after anyone's affection.
Melissa
>It worked fine for me when I was a teen and it worked fine for me three years
>ago as an adult and was dating my (now) husband long-distance. This will
>probably be the rule in our house, too, when SD is a teen. Times change, but
>not always for the better, IMO. I hope my SD has better self-esteem than to
>be
>a boy-chaser when she is of that age.
>
I see it as the opposite. I like the idea of girls not feeling they have to
wait around for boys to call. I think it's great that teenaged girls have the
confidence to take matters into their own hands.
I called boys as a teen, but no one was ever around to tell me that I
shouldn't. I am glad that my SD can ask boys on dates and make phone calls.
She doesn't need to wait around for some boy to call. She is perfectly capable
of doing it herself.
Love,
Melissa
"Being a Grown up is a bitch sometimes."
-V. Robinson
Geri and Brian
>wait around for boys to call.
I told you I would be the minority.
I don't think that boys are necessarily socialized that it is ok for girls to
call. Even though a lot has allegedly changed for girls, I think you still hear
the same old sterotypes among the boys.
>I am glad that my SD can ask boys on dates and make phone calls.
Does she pay for the dates if she does the asking?
Geri and Brian
>She doesn't need to wait around for some boy to call. She is perfectly
>capable
>of doing it herself.
I guess if things are still the way they are now, SD will probably be able to
chase the boys at her other house. That is exactly the kind of behavior BM
would espouse and she sits at home alone and bitter.
My experience with the calling/asking out of boys/men from teenhood up to
dating Brian three years ago was that I never called them and I never lacked
for dates when I wanted them. I have never wanted to be the kind of woman who
felt she had to chase men, because I have always felt that if someone wanted to
call me or see me, they would call or ask. If not, I am not going to waste my
time waiting on them or worse, calling them up and listening to lame excuses or
lies (or otherwise putting them on the spot) about why they have not called.
That is just not my style.
I guess SD will probably get exposed to both styles and we shall see which
works out best for her.
lilblakdog
news:20010615112258...@ng-bk1.aol.com...
> And my guess would be there was a lot of *dead* time during those calls.
Many
> times teens don't even say anything to their b/f or g/f they just want to
be
> connected.
I was going to say this...it's very, very true. I used to sit on the phone
with my boyfriend for hours and say nothing. He'd be doing homework and I'd
be doing needlework or something (I never did homework a day in my life),
and we'd just be there if the other one wanted to say something.
> 9pm during the summer is a bit early to shut off incoming calls for teens.
10pm
> would be more realistic. Do you at least allow him to *make* calls after
9pm?
I can see Cindy's point, though. And summer is the worst for trying to get
a little one to go to bed--who wants to go to bed when it's still light out
and they can hear other kids playing? But if the other house has the same
rules, I don't see any reason why her stepson couldn't call out.
lil
Vicki Robinson
<Does she pay for the dates if she does the asking?
<
They both pay their own way, routinely. Why not? It doubles their
resources, and cuts off any of that "I paid for dinner, I gotta get
more than a kiss!" at the end of the date.
I hate the idea of my daughters sitting around wishing that a boy
would call when maybe he would if he thought she were interested. I
want them to feel free to initiate a date. Why not? Why let the boy
do the choosing, and relegate the girl to the status of either being
chosen or not? Why shouldn't she have some say in this too? However,
that doesn't mean that you have to allow your daughter to call a boy
twelve times between 3:00 and 9:00PM. It's possible for teens of
either sex to call each other and behave with dignity and sense of
self-worth. It's not a choice between 1955 and Sex and the City;
there's middle ground.
Vicki Robinson
<
<My experience with the calling/asking out of boys/men from teenhood up to
<dating Brian three years ago was that I never called them and I never lacked
<for dates when I wanted them. I have never wanted to be the kind of woman who
<felt she had to chase men, because I have always felt that if someone wanted to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Calling a man (or boy, depending on age) is not "chasing!" Geez!
What's so wrong about saying "Let's have dinner/see a movie/go to a
concert"? How does that translate into "chasing"?
<call me or see me, they would call or ask. If not, I am not going to waste my
<time waiting on them or worse, calling them up and listening to lame excuses or
<lies (or otherwise putting them on the spot) about why they have not called.
But they have to take a chance on your lame excuses or lies or being
put on the spot about why you are saying no to their call?
I don't understand why it's ok for a man to express interest (which is
not chasing) in a woman, but not for a woman to express interest in a
man. That puts all of the power in the man's hands and leaves the
woman to react, never to act.
My daughters are worth more than that. They're smart, they're worth
spending time with, and they realize that calling a boy to invite him
to share an event is not a pathetic bid for attention any more than
his call to her would be.
Melissa
>call. Even though a lot has allegedly changed for girls, I think you still
>hear
>the same old sterotypes among the boys.
Huh? I have a teenaged brother, and one young adult brother. Of course it's
ok for girls to call. Girls called Mac all the time. Mom finally got him his
own line. If girls aren't supposed to call boys no one ever told him. :)
>
>Does she pay for the dates if she does the asking?
Dutch. SO and SD's mom don't let boys pay for her dates. or vice versa yet.
Also since SD worked until recently I imagine the money came out of her own
pocket.
I also don't remember ever in my life letting a boy or man pay my way on a date
until SO, and that wasn't until we lived together.
Melissa
>resources, and cuts off any of that "I paid for dinner, I gotta get
>more than a kiss!" at the end of the date.
>
This is the rule with SD.
>I hate the idea of my daughters sitting around wishing that a boy
>would call when maybe he would if he thought she were interested. I
>want them to feel free to initiate a date.
To me it seems like it encourages passive aggresive behavior. I mean why can a
girl call a boy that's just a friend but not a potential boyfriend? It's just
silly.
It also puts boys on a pedastol. Like you need his permission to talk to him.
UGH.
Melissa
>chase the boys at her other house. That is exactly the kind of behavior BM
>would espouse and she sits at home alone and bitter.
Since when does calling a boy equal boy chasing? That's going a bit to far.
>I never called them and I never lacked
>for dates when I wanted them. I have never wanted to be the kind of woman who
>felt she had to chase men,
I'm sorry Geri but calling men does not equal chasing them. If you want to see
a movie what's the harm in inviting a guy to go along with you?
>If not, I am not going to waste my
>time waiting on them or worse, calling them up and listening to lame excuses
>or
>lies (or otherwise putting them on the spot) about why they have not called.
>That is just not my style.
Why would anyone do that period? Is this the only reason you think that women
call men?
Melissa
>What's so wrong about saying "Let's have dinner/see a movie/go to a
>concert"? How does that translate into "chasing"?
Especially if you have a particular movie you want to see etc. What are you
going to do drop hints? I can just imagine trying to make Geoff guess what
movie I want to see.
>I don't understand why it's ok for a man to express interest (which is
>not chasing) in a woman, but not for a woman to express interest in a
>man. That puts all of the power in the man's hands and leaves the
>woman to react, never to act.
Stereotypes I guess.
>My daughters are worth more than that. They're smart, they're worth
>spending time with, and they realize that calling a boy to invite him
>to share an event is not a pathetic bid for attention any more than
>his call to her would be.
>
:) You go girlfriend! (Is that out of date and lame now?)
Geri and Brian
I have gone to plenty of movies both by myself and with dates. I have never
had trouble going to places alone if I wanted to go. That is something I also
home that SD learns.
Geri and Brian
>date
>until SO, and that wasn't until we lived together.
Perhaps it is a regional thing. I can't recall any dates I went on that I paid
for, unless it was something for business.
Melissa
>paid
>for, unless it was something for business.
>
Aren't you from the midwest as well?
Melissa
>had trouble going to places alone if I wanted to go. That is something I also
>home that SD learns.
>
Huh? Who says that because you ask a guy to go to a movie that you can't go on
your own?
Geri and Brian
>a movie what's the harm in inviting a guy to go along with you?
Just not my cup of tea. I would go alone first or go with a girlfriend, I
guess.
Like I said in my other post, maybe it is a regional thing, or maybe just the
set I ran with - I don't know.
>Is this the only reason you think that women
>call men?
No, I guess for the guys that are "just friends", one might call to talk. I
had a best friend until I moved here, who was a gay man. However, I always
found that even in our relationship, which was quite close, unless there was an
issue of time sensitivity, I allowed him to do the calling. Things went more
smoothly that way. He also insisted on paying for our dinners, movies, etc.,
99.9% of the time. (And I know he wasn't hoping for sex afterward!)
Sian Reid
gple...@aol.comicrelief wrote on 6/15/01 3:19 PM:
> My experience with the calling/asking out of boys/men from teenhood up to
> dating Brian three years ago was that I never called them and I never lacked
> for dates when I wanted them. I have never wanted to be the kind of woman who
> felt she had to chase men, because I have always felt that if someone wanted
> to
> call me or see me, they would call or ask. If not, I am not going to waste my
> time waiting on them or worse, calling them up and listening to lame excuses
> or
> lies (or otherwise putting them on the spot) about why they have not called.
> That is just not my style.
>
Geri, two of my best, best friends in high school were both boys. One of
them lived 30 miles away, and we spent our whole *lives* on the phone, it
sometimes seemed. I was never any more *physically* involved with them than
taking their arms when I walked (for practical, rather than romantic
reasons). We never, ever dated (although anyone we *did* date who wanted to
make the demand that we couldn't see each other usually got an earful, and
if they didn't get hip, fell of the dating list!)
I would hate to send the message to my kid that you can't have reciprocal,
non-romantic friendships with members of the opposite sex...
Sian
Geri and Brian
>on
>your own?
I just wouldn't bother to ask someone who didn't ask me first - I would just go
myself. When I have been asked out, the gentleman always has asked me what I
would like to see, so it was never a guessing game.
Geri and Brian
Oklahoma, Texas, Alabama and Nebraska in my childhood. My parents are both
from the South, so I was raised like a southern kid.
Geri and Brian
>them lived 30 miles away, and we spent our whole *lives* on the phone, it
>sometimes seemed.
Well, my SD won't have that problem. Unless there is a miracle, we will
continue to live out here and the population is so dense you can't sneeze
without 2,000 other people hearing it.
>I would hate to send the message to my kid that you can't have reciprocal,
>non-romantic friendships with members of the opposite sex...
I would not want my SD to get that message either, but I would be somewhat
leary of that in *teenage* boys. I know they haven't changed that much since
we were kids. Of course, we have the experience of the "Spur Posse" out in our
neck of the woods (in fact, in our fair city) to reinforce that.
Melissa
>leary of that in *teenage* boys. I know they haven't changed that much since
>we were kids. Of course, we have the experience of the "Spur Posse" out in
>our
>neck of the woods (in fact, in our fair city) to reinforce that.
>
The Spur Posse is dam scary, you'll get no arguments there. Even worse were
the girls who thought they were sexy. Talk about your lack of self-esteem!
Maybe it's because have two brothers but I don't think all teenage boys are
that bad. Most of my friends have always been male so maybe that's a part of
it.
Geri and Brian
>that bad.
LOL - I had a brother too! As an adult he is a great guy, but as a teenager, I
am not sure I would have wanted my daughter dating him!
>Most of my friends have always been male so maybe that's a part of
>it.
My best friends have been male, but in my adult life (except for my husband),
my best friends have been gay males. No sexuality issues to deal with. They
were absolute gentlemen to go out with, though.
I think our ideas about this sort of thing also come from the type of crowds we
ran with. The parents of the boys I went out with would have been just as
horrified if a girl had called as my parents would have been if I had done it.
(In other words I hung with kids who came from similar families.) Brian was
raised pretty much the same way I was (even in CA, but his family was from
Virigina originally). We tend to socialize with people of similar backgrounds.
Now SD may have a time of it, because her mom was raised differently and the
school SD goes to is definitely not what we would choose for her. As she gets
older, she will probably realize more and more she is living in two different
worlds. On the other hand, if she wants that set of values, by that age she
can choose to live with her mom.
merrie
Geri and Brian <gple...@aol.comicrelief> wrote in message
news:20010615163643...@ng-cc1.aol.com...
>
> Like I said in my other post, maybe it is a regional thing, or maybe just
the
> set I ran with - I don't know.
This isn't a good rational reason for keeping a useless protocol.
I think it's important to examine the way you were raised or your
reasons for your actions.
If you do things just because "that's all you know," then warranted
improvement cannot occur.
Merrie
Geri and Brian
> I think it's important to examine the way you were raised or your
>reasons for your actions.
We don't believe it is a useless protocol. Actually, in thinking about it, I
have a friend who has an eighteen year old son (a very nice boy, actually -
pretty popular) and they pretty much frown on girls calling him. I think some
do call him, but those are not the ones he dates. Their attitude is, "What
kind of parents would let their daughters do this", so I know we are not alone
in thinking this way.
The great thing about it is that SD can do exactly what my sisters and I did
when we explained our rules to friends etc., who did things differently - blame
them on our parents.
I am acquainted with some pretty great kids of different ages and they are all
growing up getting good grades, going to church, not drinking or taking drugs,
not dressing like gang members or sluts and they date and are not weird - in
fact have lots of friends. They are raised pretty much with the same values we
have. So I don't necessarily think these values are out of date.
Melissa
Sexism isn't out of date?
merrie
Geri and Brian <gple...@aol.comicrelief> wrote in message
so I know we are not alone
> in thinking this way.
>
are enough people that there will always be someone else who partakes in
doing things in an irrational manner.
So what *rational* statement are you going to say to SD when she asks
"Why on earth would I pretend to drop my hankie?!"
Merrie
Geri and Brian
We believe the sexes are equal in importance, but have can and often do have
different roles. In any case, our way works for us.
Geri and Brian
>"Why on earth would I pretend to drop my hankie?!"
I don't know. Why would she do that?
On the other hand, I don't think that just because someone has different
values, it makes them irrational. I guess we just choose to live by our
"irrational" customs and values, teach them to SD as have been taught the other
children of her generation in our families, and socialize with people of
similar values and customs.
This is not to say that we don't have a knowledge or awareness of how people
who do things differently, but we don't have to live that way, either.
Melissa
>"Why on earth would I pretend to drop my hankie?!"
ROTF!
merrie
I don't think it works that well for teens either.
"Because that's all I ever learned" isn't very compelling to anybody.
Does it never occur to you that if you don't have a good rational reason for
your actions - perhaps you should at least examine those actions?
Geri and Brian <gple...@aol.comicrelief> wrote in message
news:20010615200509...@ng-mr1.aol.com...
>
> On the other hand, I don't think that just because someone has different
> values, it makes them irrational.
No - but not having any rational reasons for those values makes them
irrational by definition.
I guess we just choose
But you didn't *choose* at all. You're just doing what you were taught
and not thinking about it in any rational way and making an actual decision
or choice about the matter. Kinda makes you a bigot.
to live by our
> "irrational" customs and values, teach them to SD as have been taught the
other
> children of her generation in our families, and socialize with people of
> similar values and customs.
>
> This is not to say that we don't have a knowledge or awareness of how
people
> who do things differently, but we don't have to live that way, either.
>
Of course you don't have to live the way other people do. I just don't
think that bigotry is a great plan.
Merrie
Melissa
>different roles. In any case, our way works for us.
Teaching a girl to play games? It's like that awful book The Rules. I
honestly thought all of this passive aggressive game playing stuff was left
behind on the dark ages.
Melissa
Because it's the same kind of game playing BS.
>On the other hand, I don't think that just because someone has different
>values, it makes them irrational.
No, but when your best reasoning it "Well we have friends that do this." it
does come off as flippant.
>I guess we just choose to live by our
>"irrational" customs and values, teach them to SD as have been taught the
>other
>children of her generation in our families, and socialize with people of
>similar values and customs.
Values or games? I guess I just don't see how teaching a girl that she doesn't
have the right to so much as call a boy is a value. Is inferiority a value?
Indyguy1
Some how I'm getting the feeling that you feel that girls that call boys come
from a lower class of people than what you consider you and your husband to be
in. It's almost like you feel girls that call boys come from the wrong side of
the tracks. I can personaly assure you this is not the case.
Pehaps that was the perception back in the 50s and 60s and perhaps still is in
Mayberry type one horse towns, but by no means is it still that way in most
areas today. Girls are not percieved as chasing boys if they call a boy any
more than a boy is percieved as chasing a girl by calling her. It's rather
normal and pretty much universally accepted that they can call each other.
On the other hand, if she wants that set of values, by that age she
>can choose to live with her mom.
So if your SD wants to call boys on the phone from your house, you'll be
washing your hands of her because she has low class values?
Indy
Indyguy1
>>It puts the males in the
>>drivers seat and the females in the backseat, when they should have the
>>ability
>>to sit side by side.
>
>I forgot to add this to my other post. You know, IMO the side-by-side thing
>doesn't really work in high school, because the hormones are raging too high
>to
>be thinking about equality in relationships.
It not only works, it sets the tone for how teens will deal with adult
relationships. I much prefer to know my girls will not sit around waiting for
ANYONE. As far as the hormones are concerned, a call from a girl with high
morals is much prefered from a teenaged boys parents than the teenaged boy
calling the ones with no morals.
>
>I don't see the rule as placing the girl in the backseat.
Sorry I disagree. I remember being a teen. I remember girls sitting and waiting
for a boy to ask them to dance. I remember how sad it was to see certain girls
clustered together hoping they were good enough for some pimply faced jerk to
give them the time of day. Girls don't have to be the shrinking violets of
yesterday to be decent and moral. You kind of sound like my 78 year old mother
when she she first found out girls calling boys is no longer considered taboo,
immoral, showing a lack of values, or chasing boys.
I see it as the
>girl
>placing enough value on herself not to have to chase after anyone's
>affection.
And *I* see it as a girl placing enough value on herself that she doesn't have
to wait for approval from any boy. And if a boy doesn't like her then it's
*his* loss, not hers.
Indyguy1
>"Indyguy1" <indy...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20010615112258...@ng-bk1.aol.com...
>
>> And my guess would be there was a lot of *dead* time during those calls.
>Many
>> times teens don't even say
>anything to their b/f or g/f they just want to
>be
>> connected.
>
>I was going to say this...it's very, very true. I used to sit on the phone
>with my boyfriend for hours and say nothing. He'd be doing homework and I'd
>be doing needlework or something (I never did homework a day in my life),
>and we'd just be there if the other one wanted to say something.
LOL, my oldest, now 18, and her b/f fell asleep talking on the phone the night
before she went on her graduation trip to Cancun! We all had a good laugh about
it. In fact his mom called the next day to say she's glad they were on the
phone so long as she didn't want to pay for any lengthy calls from Mexico!
>
>> 9pm during the summer is a bit early to shut off incoming calls for teens.
>10pm
>> would be more realistic. Do you at least allow him to *make* calls after
>9pm?
>
>I can see Cindy's point, though. And summer is the worst for trying to get
>a little one to go to bed--who wants to go to bed when it's still light out
>and they can hear other kids playing?
Yes, but Cindy's daughter is a lot younger than her SS and the little girl does
need to understand that with age comes more freedom and privledges.:)
But if the other house has the same
>rules, I don't see any reason why her stepson couldn't call out.
Agreed.
Indy
>
>lil
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Wendy
Indyguy1 <indy...@aol.com> wrote:
>Cindy Martin wrote:
>
>>Okay, SS (15) has a girlfriend. I'm not quite sure what, exactly, that
>>means these days, but - he has one.
>
>LOL, they usually call it *going out* around here, even though they rarely *go*
>anywhere together.:)
That seems to start in kindergarten/reception here, but by 15 it usually
means more.
>This is normal. Putting up with the phone calls is part of being a parent of a
>teen.
My teen has a mobile. She has paid for it herself and it is pay as you go,
and she has to pay for that herself too.
The phone bill is still high, but we're trying to deal with that. The girls
know that if it comes in again as high as the last two quarters (over 300s
for each quarter) than there will be drastic action.
>Let this one go. Teens want privacy when talking to their SOs. This is one of
>the breaking away and growing up rights of passage they want and need.
*nod* At some point, you have to accept that you have to trust them.
>>She called BACK at 9 p.m. and I told her our phone does NOT ring after 9. I
>>have a little one I'm putting to bed about that and unless it's an
>>emergency, it can wait until tomorrow.
>
>9pm during the summer is a bit early to shut off incoming calls for teens. 10pm
>would be more realistic. Do you at least allow him to *make* calls after 9pm?
In our house the limit is 11. If you don't want the phone to interrupt you
putting your daughter to bed, can you set it to answerphone?
>Boys call girls AND girls call boys. Set a realistic time that you no longer
>will allow incoming calls. Set a realistic time to prohibit outgoing calls.
>Demand any time the call waiting beeps in he must answer it and all calls to
>you or your husband take priority over his conversations.
>
>The easiest way to avoid phone battles is to get SS his own line and phone in
>his room. We gave each of our kids their own lines and phones as their 13th
>bday gifts.
Here in England we pay even for local calls, so this isn't really a viable
proposition, because while I don't listen to phone calls, I do insist that the
girls ask to use the phone and not run up bills.
I agree with a lot of what you say about teens and phones. I do think that
it is good for them to have friends and talk to them, though I am trying to
get my teen to understand that all relationships require time and effort
and that she needs to make time for her family as well as her friends.
Wendy
Wendy
Geri and Brian <gple...@aol.comicrelief> wrote:
>>Her dad
>>>had a rule that the boy would be doing the calling if he was interested, not
>>>her. I like that rule, I wish this girl's dad had that rule.
>
>I am going to definitely be in the minority here, but I like that rule, too.
>It worked fine for me when I was a teen and it worked fine for me three years
>ago as an adult and was dating my (now) husband long-distance. This will
>probably be the rule in our house, too, when SD is a teen. Times change, but
>not always for the better, IMO. I hope my SD has better self-esteem than to be
>a boy-chaser when she is of that age.
I think building self esteem in children is important, but I don't think it
follows that phoning necessarily equates to chasing.
Wendy
Victoria...
> Well that certainly isn't good enough for me.
> I don't think it works that well for teens either.
>
> "Because that's all I ever learned" isn't very compelling to anybody.
>
> Does it never occur to you that if you don't have a good rational reason for
> your actions - perhaps you should at least examine those actions?
>
>
> >
> > On the other hand, I don't think that just because someone has different
> > values, it makes them irrational.
>
> No - but not having any rational reasons for those values makes them
> irrational by definition.
Start with a cage containing five monkeys. In the cage, hang a banana on a
string and put a set of stairs under it. Before long, a monkey will go to
the stairs and start to climb towards the banana. As soon as he touches
the stairs, spray all of the monkeys with cold water. After a while, another
monkey makes an attempt with the same result - all the monkeys are sprayed
with cold water.
Pretty soon, when any monkey tries to climb the stairs,
the other monkeys will try to prevent it.
Now, turn off the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace
it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the
stairs. To his horror, all of the other monkeys attack him. After another
attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will
be assaulted.
Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a
new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous
newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm. Again, replace a third
original monkey with a new one. The new one makes it to the stairs and is
attacked as well. Two of the four monkeys that beat him have no idea why
they were not permitted to climb the stairs, or why they are participating
in the beating of the newest monkey.
After replacing the fourth and fifth original monkeys, _all_ the monkeys
which have been sprayed with cold water have been replaced. Nevertheless,
no monkey ever again approaches the stairs.
Why not? Because that's the way it's always been around here.
And that's how company policy or custom begins...
>
> I guess we just choose
>
> But you didn't *choose* at all. You're just doing what you were taught
> and not thinking about it in any rational way and making an actual decision
> or choice about the matter. Kinda makes you a bigot.
>
> to live by our
> > "irrational" customs and values, teach them to SD as have been taught the
> other
> > children of her generation in our families, and socialize with people of
> > similar values and customs.
> >
> > This is not to say that we don't have a knowledge or awareness of how
> people
> > who do things differently, but we don't have to live that way, either.
> >
> Of course you don't have to live the way other people do. I just don't
> think that bigotry is a great plan.
>
> Merrie
>
--
Victoria...
~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~
http://www.emerysdiesel.com or
http://www.geocities.com/emerysdiesel
~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~
Yesterday is history.. Tomorrow a mystery.. Today is a gift..That's why it's
called the present! Live and savor every moment.....this is not a dress
rehearsal!
Melissa
>relationships. I much prefer to know my girls will not sit around waiting for
>ANYONE.
An important lesson. Assertive teenage girls make assertive women.
One thing I really admire about my SD is her assertiveness, and confidence.
It's really a credit to both her parents and herself.
>As far as the hormones are concerned, a call from a girl with high
>morals is much prefered from a teenaged boys parents than the teenaged boy
>calling the ones with no morals.
>
LOL.
>
>Sorry I disagree. I remember being a teen. I remember girls sitting and
>waiting
>for a boy to ask them to dance. I remember how sad it was to see certain
>girls
>clustered together hoping they were good enough for some pimply faced jerk to
>give them the time of day. Girls don't have to be the shrinking violets of
>yesterday to be decent and moral
LOL. I remember SO and I picking SD up from a YMCA dance when she was 13. One
of the things that aggrevated her was that the boys stood on one side of the
room and the boys on the other, with no one sure who was supposed to ask who to
dance. She and her friends would up asking the boys first.
>And *I* see it as a girl placing enough value on herself that she doesn't
>have
>to wait for approval from any boy. And if a boy doesn't like her then it's
>*his* loss, not hers.
>
Absolutely!
Melissa
>from a lower class of people than what you consider you and your husband to
>be
>in. It's almost like you feel girls that call boys come from the wrong side
>of
>the tracks. I can personaly assure you this is not the case.
>
I get the same feeling.
>Pehaps that was the perception back in the 50s and 60s and perhaps still is
>in
>Mayberry type one horse towns, but by no means is it still that way in most
>areas today. Girls are not percieved as chasing boys if they call a boy any
>more than a boy is percieved as chasing a girl by calling her. It's rather
>normal and pretty much universally accepted that they can call each other.
>
Has been for awhile too. I asked my mother about this on the phone today. She
certainly called boys as a teenager. She'd never heard of the rule actually.
>So if your SD wants to call boys on the phone from your house, you'll be
>washing your hands of her because she has low class values?
>
>Indy
I think Geri is going to be in for a big surprise when SD hits her teens. :)
Melissa
>I don't think it works that well for teens either.
>
>"Because that's all I ever learned" isn't very compelling to anybody.
My mom was just saying today that teenagers are great for testing these sort of
things.
Geri and Brian
I thought that book was funny. I have both of them.
Geri and Brian
>does come off as flippant.
No, it means that we are not the only people who think that way. You can take
that as flippant as you choose.
>Values or games? I guess I just don't see how teaching a girl that she
>doesn't
>have the right to so much as call a boy is a value. Is inferiority a value?
It is not about whether she has the right - it is whether we think it is proper
behavior. That is a value.
Geri and Brian
>your actions - perhaps you should at least examine those actions?
No, these are our beliefs. This is like asking someone to explain rationally
why they have faith in God or whoever else they believe in. Some of those
things defy "rationality", but it is still our right to have those beliefs.
Geri and Brian
>of
>things.
When my siblings and I were growing up we tested the things we learned, and
guess what. Now that we are in our thirties to forties, we are all
implementing the very same things, because we found out that what our parents
had to say made some sense.
Geri and Brian
>washing your hands of her because she has low class values?
Hopefully by the time she is of that age, at least some of what we teach her
will be ingrained. However, she will be of the age where she can go in the
courtroom and tell the judge where she wants to live. That is not the same as
us washing our hands of her. However, in our house, she will follow our rules.
That's the way it works here.
Geri and Brian
>from a lower class of people than what you consider you and your husband to
>be
>in
It is not a "class" issue. It is a "whom we choose to associate with" comment.
>Pehaps that was the perception back in the 50s and 60s and perhaps still is
>in
>Mayberry type one horse towns,
Well, I would rather live in Mayberry than here, that's for sure! I bet I
could talk Barney out of the speeding tickets and the CHP are not that easy.
Geri and Brian
You never know ... I will let you know. :-)
Geri and Brian
I was/am both. I still never called boys. The two don't necessarily
correlate.
Geri and Brian
>when she she first found out girls calling boys is no longer considered
>taboo,
>immoral, showing a lack of values, or chasing boys.
She must be a lady.
>And *I* see it as a girl placing enough value on herself that she doesn't
>have
>to wait for approval from any boy. And if a boy doesn't like her then it's
>*his* loss, not hers.
I told you my opinion about it would be a minority.:-)
Melissa
>
>I was/am both. I still never called boys. The two don't necessarily
>correlate.
>
Not calling boys or men, is hardly assertive.
Melissa
>>from a lower class of people than what you consider you and your husband to
>>be
>>in
>
>It is not a "class" issue. It is a "whom we choose to associate with"
>comment.
Geri that's the SAME thing. In fact the ay you reworded it sounds even worse.
Melissa
>why they have faith in God or whoever else they believe in. Some of those
>things defy "rationality", but it is still our right to have those beliefs.
You equate calling boys to faith?
Melissa
>guess what. Now that we are in our thirties to forties, we are all
>implementing the very same things, because we found out that what our parents
>had to say made some sense.
>
No You missed the point. Having teenagers tested her social prejudices, just
as she had done to her parents.
Melissa
Somehow that doesn't surprise me.
Geri and Brian
I never had any need to call them. I have gone where I wanted with whom I have
wanted (or alone), as I chose. Just because I never threw myself at anyone
doesn't make me non-assertive. I can stick up for myself just fine.
Geri and Brian
>worse.
But why? We associate with people who have similar customs and values that we
have. These are people we have something in common with. These are people we
feel comfortable having SD around. That is not about class - it is about
choice.
Geri and Brian
You missed the point. Someone questions the rationality of what we believe as
far as behavior, it is the same as questioning the rationality of any other
belief we have.
Geri and Brian
>as she had done to her parents.
And then when you get old enough to raise your own kids, you realize that at
least some of what your parents had to say made some sense.
I can tell you that being involved in raising a child on even a 50% basis has
pushed me into a much more conservative mode about a lot of things than I used
to be when I was 30.
Geri and Brian
They were hilarious. I don't think they were meant to be taken seriously. The
thing that is funny is that so many people got so up in arms about them -
obviously taking them seriously.
They have a new one about marriage. I am planning to buy it.
merrie
Geri and Brian <gple...@aol.comicrelief> wrote in message
news:20010615230707...@ng-cv1.aol.com...
> >My mom was just saying today that teenagers are great for testing these
sort
> >of
> >things.
>
> When my siblings and I were growing up we tested the things we learned,
and
> guess what. Now that we are in our thirties to forties, we are all
> implementing the very same things, because we found out that what our
parents
> had to say made some sense.
>
I'm still waiting for the rational. As far as I can see, you only limit
yourself.
Merrie
merrie
Geri and Brian <gple...@aol.comicrelief> wrote in message
> >Not calling boys or men, is hardly assertive.
>
> I never had any need to call them. I have gone where I wanted with whom I
have
> wanted
you mean with whom you wanted amoungst those that had called you.
merrie
And I do believe that every person should examine their religious
convictions.
Merrie
Geri and Brian <gple...@aol.comicrelief> wrote in message
news:20010615230524...@ng-cv1.aol.com...
Geri and Brian
Who else would there be? I didn't go around pining after people who I didn't
know, if that is what you mean.
I am not sure what all this discussion is about, to be honest. We don't
approve of girls calling boys, in general - unless there is a business reason.
That is how we, meaning Brian and I, are going to do things. We don't have to
be sheep and do what everyone else does. (In fact, I hope my SD learns not to
be a sheep.) If other people want to do something else, that is their
business. I guess we can all conpare kids when they are grown and see if
anyone was wrong or right. There are plenty of people on this group and in
the world in general who do not live lifestyles that we consider acceptable for
ourselves, but it that is what they consider acceptable for themselves, that is
up to them. I said at the beginning of this conversation that I would be in
the minority on this.
When it comes to the men calling women thing, all we have to do is look as far
as BM to see how this can turn out (even excluding the morals aspect of it).
When Brian left her, she used to call him all the time and write him these
letters begging him to come back. He hung up on her and ignored the letters.
She still calls here two or three times a day, sometimes (one day it was five
times), and the messages she leaves are about trivia. Her sad, pathetic bids
for attention are ignored. I sure don't want SD to grow up to be that kind of
woman.
Wendy
Geri and Brian <gple...@aol.comicrelief> wrote:
>I don't think that boys are necessarily socialized that it is ok for girls to
>call. Even though a lot has allegedly changed for girls, I think you still hear
>the same old sterotypes among the boys.
Probably if they're boys from the same community where girls are being told
it's improper behaviour, but as part of the western world at large I'd suspect
it's no longer the norm.
Wendy
Wendy
Geri and Brian <gple...@aol.comicrelief> wrote:
>chase the boys at her other house. That is exactly the kind of behavior BM
>would espouse and she sits at home alone and bitter.
>
>My experience with the calling/asking out of boys/men from teenhood up to
>dating Brian three years ago was that I never called them and I never lacked
>for dates when I wanted them. I have never wanted to be the kind of woman who
>felt she had to chase men, because I have always felt that if someone wanted to
>call me or see me, they would call or ask. If not, I am not going to waste my
>time waiting on them or worse, calling them up and listening to lame excuses or
>lies (or otherwise putting them on the spot) about why they have not called.
>That is just not my style.
Geri, do you really think that men's feelings are less sensitive to rejection
than women? I'd have thought they would want the same amount of reassurance
that the desire to talk and go out together was mutual.
>I guess SD will probably get exposed to both styles and we shall see which
>works out best for her.
But you'll love her and support her in her choices, regardless?
Wendy
Wendy
Vicki Robinson <vjr...@xcski.com> wrote:
>I don't understand why it's ok for a man to express interest (which is
>not chasing) in a woman, but not for a woman to express interest in a
>man. That puts all of the power in the man's hands and leaves the
>woman to react, never to act.
Actually it puts a lot of power in women's hands and leaves a lot of men
feeling insecure and vulnerable too.
>My daughters are worth more than that. They're smart, they're worth
>spending time with, and they realize that calling a boy to invite him
>to share an event is not a pathetic bid for attention any more than
>his call to her would be.
Agreed.
Wendy
Wendy
Geri and Brian <gple...@aol.comicrelief> wrote:
>>of
>>things.
>
>When my siblings and I were growing up we tested the things we learned, and
>guess what. Now that we are in our thirties to forties, we are all
>implementing the very same things, because we found out that what our parents
>had to say made some sense.
Just because behaviour is learned and repeated, doesn't mean that it is chosen.
People do a lot of things from rote rather than through conscious choice.
Wendy
Wendy
Indyguy1 <indy...@aol.com> wrote:
>And *I* see it as a girl placing enough value on herself that she doesn't have
>to wait for approval from any boy. And if a boy doesn't like her then it's
>*his* loss, not hers.
I'd go even further. I want and encourage my daughters to begin
all relationships as friends first. I hope that when and if they are
in relationships where hormones are a factor that thought and consideration
are the priorities.
Wendy
Anne Robotti
Geri and Brian wrote:
> I forgot to add this to my other post. You know, IMO the side-by-side thing
> doesn't really work in high school, because the hormones are raging too high to
> be thinking about equality in relationships.
I don't know, I think the hormones are raging too high *not* to be thinking
about equality in relationships.
Anne
Anne Robotti
Wendy wrote:
> I think building self esteem in children is important, but I don't think it
> follows that phoning necessarily equates to chasing.
>
> Wendy
Plus, I don't think guys calling you is something you should necessarily have
self-esteem about. This is where girls set the tone for their whole relationship
future, and boys "chasing" you can turn into some weird kind of accomplishment,
when it's really just being willing to be the passive person in the relationship.
And
I think that passivity can carry over into other areas. If it's an ego boost that he
called you, is it also an ego boost that he wants to have sex with you?
Anne
Anne Robotti
Geri and Brian wrote:
> >I see it as the opposite. I like the idea of girls not feeling they have to
> >wait around for boys to call.
>
> I told you I would be the minority.
>
> I don't think that boys are necessarily socialized that it is ok for girls to
> call. Even though a lot has allegedly changed for girls, I think you still hear
> the same old sterotypes among the boys.
All the more reason for the girls to pick up the phone. Best to weed out the
sexists early. :)
Anne
Cindy Martin
personal preference to begin with and if it works for you, fine. I'm not
sure how I feel about it, but I have several years before I have to worry
about it.
Let me see if I have the general attitude/opinions straight...
I am supposed to not only let this 15 year old CHILD have MY second phone
line, I should even consider installing one in his room for his greater
convenience - in a rental property, no less. If he needs it, I should even
be nice enough to consider purchasing an answering machine for him. I
shouldn't worry about who he's talking to, or what he's saying, and if he
wants to talk until all hours of the night, that's fine.
This for a CHILD we have already spent several hundred dollars on a drug
treatment program not too long ago, who has continually lied to us, who just
managed to lose an almost $200 pair of glasses that now have to be replaced.
And, of course, our insurance company only pays for one eye exam a year so
we'll have to pay for this exam out of our own pocket. Before you ask why
we need a new eye exam, if we wait and do the exam in December and his eye
sight has changed, we'd be buying THREE new pair of glasses in one year. We
met with the DJO and had to pay for it. You know, I actually totalled
everything up last night because SS's attitude over his glasses was that it
was no big deal and he couldn't understand why we were so upset that he
couldn't find his glasses. In the last six months, including the glasses
and exam he has to have soon, we'll have spent over $600 - almost $700 - on
this kid. Between the program, the lost glasses, the DJO almost an entire
paycheck has gone up in smoke. But, now, I'm supposed to give him his own
phone line!
I didn't realize the Ice Capades were playing in Hell.
As for the curfew on incoming calls, there are very few rules I have
implemented from my parents house to mine. But, the one rule that HAS been
implemented is that - if you don't like my rules, move out, get your own
place and make your own rules. But, as long as I pay the bills for this
house, it'll be my rules (Mike shares this opinion, so it should actually be
we). Mike and I pay for the phones, we pay the phone lines, we pay for the
roof over the kid's head. The rule in this house is our phone shuts down at
9 p.m. unless you're stranded, bleeding, or someone has died. When he's
older and has proven that he can be trusted, maybe that rule will be
changed. But, trust and SS are barely nodding acquantainces at this point.
Especially after losing $200 glasses and blowing it off!
I guess it's as lucky you guys don't live in this house as you don't live in
Geri's.
Oh, and Anne, I don't need to lighten up and remember my "first love"
because my first love wasn't using drugs, or running away from home, or
lying to his parents. Of course, if I remember correctly, my first love was
probably 10-15 years older than me so he was already on his own, with a job,
paying his own bills. Oh, he'd have been in the military too. At three
years older than me, Mike is the youngest person I ever dated.
Anne Robotti
Cindy Martin wrote:
> Oh, and Anne, I don't need to lighten up and remember my "first love"
> because my first love wasn't using drugs, or running away from home, or
> lying to his parents. Of course, if I remember correctly, my first love was
> probably 10-15 years older than me so he was already on his own, with a job,
> paying his own bills. Oh, he'd have been in the military too. At three
> years older than me, Mike is the youngest person I ever dated.
Cindy, I have no idea what you're getting so pissy about, if you don't want
advice
don't ask for it.
You don't want to get the kid his own phone line, I'm not going to drive down
there and make you. You don't want to lighten up, I think the last few years
have proved that *nobody* can make you. If you want Michael to follow your
rules exactly the way you've set them down without compromise, you should
have asked for advice about *that.* I thought you were trying to resolve the
situation.
My error, as usual.
Anne
Melissa
>about equality in relationships.
>
>Anne
>
>
It's never to early for boys to learn that men and women are equal.
Melissa
>least some of what your parents had to say made some sense.
Who ever denied that? You're really reaching here Geri.
Melissa
>as
>far as behavior, it is the same as questioning the rationality of any other
>belief we have.
In otherwords you really don't have a logical reason, and your own prejudice
about gender roles will shape this rather than common sense.
Melissa
>have
>wanted (or alone), as I chose. Just because I never threw myself at anyone
>doesn't make me non-assertive. I can stick up for myself just fine.
>
Calling men does not equal throwing yourself at them. Your stereotypes are
really getting to the point of silly.
Indyguy1
>>Not calling boys or men, is hardly assertive.
>
>I never had any need to call them.
You seem to be implying that girls that call boys *need* to do so because boys
will not call them. You are wrong of course.
By many of your comments you are making this very personal. *I* have daughters
that call boys, and that will call men as they get older. They know they don't
have to wait for males to call them, they know they are equal human beings and
won't settle for being treated as anything less than equal.
I'll zero in on my eldest because she is now 18 and a good deal grown. Did she
*need* to call boys, in order to have a b/f? Nope. She was Homecoming Queen,
voted the most likely to succeed by her senior class, captain of her
cheerleading squad, president of the senior class (frosh-junior as well), and a
whole host of other things. She has extremly high morals and graduated (in the
top 10) and still remains a virgin. Boys started calling her in 5th grade. All
sorts of boys, but usually the ones that call the girls are the assertive guys.
Well she wasn't interested in many of the boys that called her. She has always
been more attracked to the shyer guys that are wonderful, fun, interesting, and
intelligent once they open up. If she hadn't had the opportunity to call them
she never would have made several of her closest friendships. She also wouldn't
have the b/f she has had now for the past two years. He never would have tried
to pursue her, because she was the most sought after girl in the school, and he
was shy.
I had NO problem from the get go with my girls calling boys. The reason why,
may sound a bit concieted but it is the Gods truth. I was a professional model.
My looks have always scared males away because they figured they didn't stand a
chance with me. When I went to my 20 year class reunion I was overwhelmed by
the men who told me they'd had crushes on me but figured I wouldn't have dated
them because I was too pretty for them. My DH, of almost 25 years, told me when
I first approached him he never would have thought he had a chance with me. Did
that make me a man chaser? A woman that *needed* to call men? Something other
than a lady? A woman with lesser values or morals? I don't think so and *I*
find it insulting that you imply it would.
Now many years later my daughters have inherited my physical appearance. But
things are in fact different today. They don't have to wait for the ones that
figure they won't be rejected by them. They don't have to limitt their
relationships to just those that others initiate. They can pick and choose who
they are friends with, who they date, and who marry based on *THEIR*
preferances, not on someone elses preferance for them.
I have gone where I wanted with whom I
>have
>wanted (or alone), as I chose.
And with your own admisssion that has been been with either A) a guy that has
called you, B) With a gay male friend, or C) Alone.
I want more than that for my girls. They have more than that already. Perhaps
if you would have dropped your stereotypical views of gender you might have had
more than that yourself.
This is exactly why I have no problem with girls calling boys. I want my
daughters to have control over their options in relationships and their
friendships. By waiting for the phone to ring they are handing their power to
decide if they choose to get to know someone better to the other person.
Just because I never threw myself at anyone
>doesn't make me non-assertive.
Good grief. Why does a girl calling a boy make her throwing herself at him? Why
isn't a boy throwing himself at a girl if he calls her?
Gender bias has been something many if not most women have fought a long time
to eliminate. Equality for all people and their rights to be treated and
percieved equally no matter their gender, race, creed, etc. is what this comes
down to.
It's one thing to say *I* choose not to do something but it's entirely
different to cast a shadow of impropriety on others because they choose to do
something differently than you do. And that is what you have been doing.
I can stick up for myself just fine.
Sure you can, with the people that have wanted you in their lives. You just
will never know how well you would have faired in life if you had been the one
deciding who you you became friends with and dated on your preferance for them
and not just their preferance for you.
Indy
Vicki Robinson
<
<I never had any need to call them. I have gone where I wanted with whom I have
<wanted (or alone), as I chose. Just because I never threw myself at anyone
<doesn't make me non-assertive. I can stick up for myself just fine.
<
This whole discussion is turning into continual repostings of the same
things, stated differently, and I think the central point is right
here. Geri equates a girl/woman calling a boy/man for a date and
throwing herself at him, or chasing him, and many others (me included)
feel that, while of course it is possible for a person to throw
hirself at another person, calling for a date doesn't necessarily fill
the bill. Geri counters with B's ex calling over and over, long after
it was clear that he wasn't going back; I'm certainly not going to
argue that there was any dignity in those actions, and they clearly
come under the heading of "throwing". But to equate that with a
seventeen year old girl picking up the phone and saying "Evolution is
opening at Hoyt's next Friday, wanna catch the matinee?" is reaching,
I think. I've talked to my kids about how to gracefully decline an
invitation that they'd rather not accept, how to decline if they
really do have a prior committment but to make it clear that they'd
like to do <FOO> another time, and how to read the same information in
other's acceptance or declining of my kids' invitations. They're
useful social skills, both extending an invitation and knowing how to
react to an invitation. They know how to be polite, how much is too
much, and when to stop. This is far more valuable to them than a
simple blanket prohibition like "The lady never calls the gentleman,
she waits for him to call. If he doesn't, well, no one's stopping you
from seeing the movie with a friend." But calling a boy to see a
movie very well could be "seeing a movie with a friend."
Vicki
--
Family and Divorce Mediation Resources
http://xcski.com/~mediator/
Vicki Robinson
<>you mean with whom you wanted amoungst those that had called you.
<
<Who else would there be? I didn't go around pining after people who I didn't
<know, if that is what you mean.
<
All the people you know call you? Wasn't there ever a person whom you
knew and who knew you from whom you'd have accepted an invitation who
never did call? That's not pining, by the way, that's the way human
relationships of any kind start - one person takes an interest in
another. Why would his interest in you be more valid than your
interest in him as a reason to pick up the phone?
I'm specifically not talking about throwing oneself at someone else,
or chasing them with repeated calls 'way past any rational number. I
agree that that is highly unattractive and can be pathetic when it's
not actually threatening. But a call, one call, to say "Let's go play
some Putt-Putt." Where's the harm?
I was raised the same way. I didn't call boys and they always paid
for dates. I found it an intense relief when I got a little older and
realized that I wasn't being "forward" (unladylike) when I called a
man in one of my graduate classes to see if he wanted to have coffee
after class. He was happy that I'd called, he accepted, and we ended
up seeing a lot of each other. In fact, we got married, but that's
neither here nor there. The point is, that I remember the old days
and the old ways, and while I mourn the passing of lots of the old
ways, this isn't one of them. It just seems artificial and unfair to
both sexes, and I can't think of a way in which it benefits the
development of human relationships, or the individuals involved.
Indyguy1
>>you mean with whom you wanted amoungst those that had called you.
>
>Who else would there be?
Any male that didn't call you. Perhaps even ones that were very well suited for
you.
I didn't go around pining after people who I didn't
>know, if that is what you mean.
I doubt that is what Merrie meant, although I can't speak for her.
Since when is calling a male pining after him? Is that what males do by calling
females?
>
>I am not sure what all this discussion is about, to be honest.
I'm not so sure about that. You seem to feel the need to put down others
decisions to convince yourself what you feel is right is the best way to go.
We don't
>approve of girls calling boys, in general - unless there is a business
>reason.
Fine, you are entitled to do so. Just stop implying those that do approve of
equality are anything lesser than you feel yourself to be.
>That is how we, meaning Brian and I, are going to do things. We don't have
>to
>be sheep and do what everyone else does. (In fact, I hope my SD learns not to
>be a sheep.) If other people want to do something else, that is their
>business. I guess we can all conpare kids when they are grown and see if
>anyone was wrong or right. There are plenty of people on this group and in
>the world in general who do not live lifestyles that we consider acceptable
>for
>ourselves, but it that is what they consider acceptable for themselves, that
>is
>up to them. I said at the beginning of this conversation that I would be in
>the minority on this.
And if you would have left it at that instead of implying girls that call boys
*need* to, are less than ladies, have lower values, etc. it wouldn't be the
issue it has become.
>
>When it comes to the men calling women thing, all we have to do is look as
>far
>as BM to see how this can turn out (even excluding the morals aspect of it).
There's you problem. Stop using your SD's mother as a barometer for all
actions.
>When Brian left her, she used to call him all the time and write him these
>letters begging him to come back. He hung up on her and ignored the letters.
That is NOT the same thing as a girl calling a boy. THAT is obsesive behavior.
That is a female groveling for a male. Not something *I* equate to a girl
calling a boy.
>
>She still calls here two or three times a day, sometimes (one day it was five
>times), and the messages she leaves are about trivia. Her sad, pathetic
>bids
>for attention are ignored. I sure don't want SD to grow up to be that kind
>of
>woman.
Girls calling boys is WAY different that what you have described here.
So you'll be limitting your SD's options in life beacuse her mother is a
nutcase?
Just because her mother isn't the type of woman you want your SD to grow up to
be like doesn't mean everything the woman does should be erased from your SD's
life. I mean if that was the case you'd have to stop the child from breathing.
Indy
Indyguy1
>>You kind of sound like my 78 year old mother
>>when she she first found out girls calling boys is no longer considered
>>taboo,
>>immoral, showing a lack of values, or chasing boys.
>
>She must be a lady.
She certainly is. Just like her daughter and her grandaughters are. Your
implying anything less is offensive.
>
>>And *I* see it as a girl placing enough value on herself that she doesn't
>>have
>>to wait for approval from any boy. And if a boy doesn't like her then it's
>>*his* loss, not hers.
>
>I told you my opinion about it would be a minority.:-)
To have a minority opinion is one thing. To backhand others decisions as lesser
than yours by casting the aspersions you have on them is inappropriate and
rude.
Geri and Brian
>
Sure.
Vicki Robinson
<When it comes to the men calling women thing, all we have to do is look as far
<as BM to see how this can turn out (even excluding the morals aspect of it).
My daughter is seventeen, an honor student, church-goer, volunteer in the
church, singer and talented keyboardist and is headed for a top-notch
college. She's polite, witty and very sharp. She is everything you'd
ever want your SD to be, in every way.
And she calls her boyfriend.
Tell me how that negates the entire first paragraph and turns her into
your SD's biomom.
Geri and Brian
What?
Geri and Brian
>about gender roles will shape this rather than common sense.
The "common sense" is based on opinion. I think we all raise our children
based on our own belief system (or prejudices, if that is what you want to call
them). I am honest enough to say so about mine.
Geri and Brian
Who else would I want to be with?
>You just
>will never know how well you would have faired in life if you had been the
>one
>deciding who you you became friends with and dated on your preferance for
>them
>and not just their preferance for you.
Of course I did. I eliminated quite a few.
Geri and Brian
>equality are anything lesser than you feel yourself to be.
That is not the implication at all. I have said that is how we will raise SD.
I am not sure why you are taking this personally, unless you are reading into
something that wasn't there.
>Stop using your SD's mother as a barometer for all
>actions.
It isn't the barometer for all actions, but it sure is a possible outcome.
>I mean if that was the case you'd have to stop the child from breathing.
Well, not today, at least.
Geri and Brian
>knew and who knew you from whom you'd have accepted an invitation who
>never did call? That's not pining, by the way, that's the way human
>relationships of any kind start - one person takes an interest in
>another
Probably. I just didn't worry about it.
> But a call, one call, to say "Let's go play
>some Putt-Putt." Where's the harm?
Nothing. I do think the inviter should pay for the date, BTW. I just doubt
that we will do things that way.
>It just seems artificial and unfair to
>both sexes, and I can't think of a way in which it benefits the
>development of human relationships, or the individuals involved.
I don't think either way is right or wrong. The one way is just not how I feel
comfortable doing things or how we feel like we want SD to do things. When she
gets old enough, obviously it will be out of our hands.
I have to add that after all this discussion began, Brian told me that
yesterday at work he overheard a single co-worker calling up a guy. He said
his impression was that she sounded desperate. ("Oh, I'd really like to see
you again." - though I can't do the tone of voice he did it in on the screen so
you know what I mean.) Now Brian is a regular guy, so if he thinks that sort
of thing, other guys probably would too.
Geri and Brian
>your SD's biomom.
>
possible outcome.
Congrats on your daughter, BTW, I forgot to add that on the other thread,
yesterday. I hope she gets into a good school - which it sounds like she will
have no trouble doing.
(If her parents have good incomes, how do they put together financial packages?
When you said that it made me curious.)