relationships and parenting (long)
Deborah M Riel
As a lot of you know, I have an SO who doesn't live with me. He's an
NCP of twin boys the approx. age as my son. We've been together since
1997.
When all the kids were younger, his boys spent every weekend with him,
and my son spent every Tuesday night and Saturday night/Sunday day
with his dad. This meant that Tuesdays were ours (SO's and mine) and
Saturday night I'd get together with him and his kids. Now that all
the kids are in their mid to later teens, none of them want to see
their dads so much. In the case of my son, it has a lot to do with
the rocky relationship he has with his dad, as well as all the friends
he has here and his established life. With my SO, I think they don't
get together much mostly because they live out of state and their
lives are there. So, what that means for us is that I now have rare
kid-free nights and he has all kid-free nights. He's becoming kind of
annoyed with the whole change of scene.
My feeling is that I have this small amount of time left to be the
parent, and I damn well better be one. To me, that means being the
home base person--being around most of the time in the evenings so I
can keep at least loose tabs on my son's coming and going. My gut
says that he's not quite a child, and not quite an adult and still
needs to know that I am the established person who he knows is around.
If he has a house full of friends coming and going, I don't feel right
about going out and leaving them. I don't feel right about going out when
someone else's kids are here for the night, even if all the kids are
in and out of the house all evening.
I do spend Tuesday evenings at my SO's house for dinner and a movie,
while my son is at his GFs house. I also go out for a pottery class
on Wednesday evenings for a couple of hours, so I'm not so wrapped up
in being around that I *never* leave. My SO has pretty much decided
that he doesn't like to come over when my son's around, because they're
pretty different in temperament and lifestyles. But, now he's
disappointed that we don't spend enough time together. He doesn't seem
to get that what's happening to him with his kids is really the same
thing happening to me with mine, except the shoe is on the other foot.
His ex is the one with the kids all the time. He wonders why I don't
insist that my son go to his dad's on Saturday nights, but at the same
time, he's not insisting that his kids come to his house each weekend.
My son usually flat out refuses to go to his dad's, and frankly at 17,
I don't think I could or should make him go.
I hate feeling in the middle of conflict. I don't really know how to
how to proceed.
Deb R.
Wendy
"Deborah M Riel" <dr...@wpi.edu> wrote in message
news:c2e2iu$8sn$1...@bigboote.WPI.EDU...
> My feeling is that I have this small amount of time left to be the
> parent, and I damn well better be one. To me, that means being the
> home base person--being around most of the time in the evenings so I
> can keep at least loose tabs on my son's coming and going. My gut
> says that he's not quite a child, and not quite an adult and still
> needs to know that I am the established person who he knows is around.
> If he has a house full of friends coming and going, I don't feel right
> about going out and leaving them. I don't feel right about going out when
> someone else's kids are here for the night, even if all the kids are
> in and out of the house all evening.
Deb, how would your SO being with you at your home stop you being available
to your son? Would your son and SO's different personalities really be such
an issue if your son has friends over too?
> He wonders why I don't
> insist that my son go to his dad's on Saturday nights, but at the same
> time, he's not insisting that his kids come to his house each weekend.
> My son usually flat out refuses to go to his dad's, and frankly at 17,
> I don't think I could or should make him go.
I don't think you can at this age. It's up to your ex and your son to sort
out their own relationship really.
> I hate feeling in the middle of conflict. I don't really know how to
> how to proceed.
I guess I'd also have to say that if I was involved with someone who I only
got to see one day a week, I might begin to look elsewhere for
companionship. How much longer before your son goes away to college or
university? What changes do you anticipate happening then?
Wendy
Deborah M Riel
Wendy <we...@hundredakerwood.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>"Deborah M Riel" <dr...@wpi.edu> wrote in message
>news:c2e2iu$8sn$1...@bigboote.WPI.EDU...
>
>to your son? Would your son and SO's different personalities really be such
>an issue if your son has friends over too?
See, he used to come over when my son was here, but he doesn't like to
any more. I think it's particularly since my son has friends coming
and going. My SO is kind of quiet, and my son and friends are
anything but quiet.
>I guess I'd also have to say that if I was involved with someone who I only
>got to see one day a week, I might begin to look elsewhere for
>companionship. How much longer before your son goes away to college or
>university? What changes do you anticipate happening then?
>
>Wendy
Well, he *can* see me more than once a week. He's welcome any time.
In a way, I feel like he's been calling more of the shots in this
relationship than I have. He was the one who first wanted to plan
marriage, then decided against it. We used to get together every
Friday night with his kids and my son, usually at my house (he lives
in a smallish apt.) but at some point he decided he wanted Friday
nights to be just him and his kids. He used to come over once a week
during the week to have dinner and watch TV and hang out for the
evening on a night when my son was home, but decided he wanted to go
contra dancing instead. Whereas I always was pretty flexible about
spending one of my 2 childfree nights with him and his kids, and about
having him and his kids over my house just about any time they wanted
to come, he's kind of cut our relationship to only the times that *I'm*
childfree. Now that I'm less childfree than before, he's
disappointed in the turn the relationship has taken.
To be fair, he probably sees this as me calling the shots (or maybe my
ex and son calling the shots) because I'm not so reliably childfree
any more lately.
I don't anticipate my son going away to college right away. I
see him spending a couple of years at home for maybe community
college or something he can commute to. I *do* however, anticipate
that he won't need me to be his home base person within the next year
or so, and I'll feel more that I can come and go in the evenings and
not need to be as responsible towards him. I see this need for me to
be around as a very temporary thing during the last stages of my son's
"childhood."
I really can't see myself ever telling my son I don't want him at home
because he's so different from my SO. It's my son's home, and
realistically, my SO chose not to combine our families a long time
ago.
I guess one of my questions is, am I being an overcautious parent?
I think my SO thinks so, but he doesn't raise his two teens, and deal
with them day-to-day, and deal with their friends. He thinks I should
take back my life, but this really *is* my life, isn't it? I'll
actually never be childfree, and my son will always (I hope) be a
welcome part of me and my home no matter how old he is or who I'm
with.
I don't know how to counter my SOs disappointment without feeling
defensive about it.
Deb R.
jane
>kid-free nights and he has all kid-free nights. He's becoming kind of
>annoyed with the whole change of scene.
Up to here, I'm with you.
>
>My feeling is that I have this small amount of time left to be the
>parent, and I damn well better be one. To me, that means being the
>home base person--being around most of the time in the evenings so I
>can keep at least loose tabs on my son's coming and going. My gut
>says that he's not quite a child, and not quite an adult and still
>needs to know that I am the established person who he knows is around.
>If he has a house full of friends coming and going, I don't feel right
>about going out and leaving them. I don't feel right about going out when
>someone else's kids are here for the night, even if all the kids are
>in and out of the house all evening.
Here you lose me. Getting Lee to go out at night is not a challenge. Whether
DH and I hang out at home or go out, I have my cell. I'm fine with leaving her
home, too. If we want to go out and we're not comfortable with her friends, I
tell her she can't have friends over that night.
>My SO has pretty much decided
>that he doesn't like to come over when my son's around, because they're
>pretty different in temperament and lifestyles.
Fine, fine, mature choice.
> But, now he's disappointed that we don't spend enough time together.
Well, yeah, you're not. Deb, the rest is nutty. Whether your son visits his
father is absolutely none of your SO's business. I wouldn't even discuss it
with him. Especially if he's pissed at you because he doesn't see his own
kids.
But you not putting enough time into your relationship with SO is totally his
business. I cannot believe that you can't find a second night a week to spend
with him. What about Friday? Or Sunday? Or whatever night you both happen to
be free?
>I hate feeling in the middle of conflict.
What do you mean by this?
jane
>
>Deb R.
jane
No, no. But you're lying to yourself if you think you're doing this because
you're protecting your son. You're pissed as hell at your SO.
IME, in MY life, this is a bad fight to have. What you are arguing about is
*not* the problem. And really, it's unfair to your son to pretend it is. If
you're angry that SO does not meet your needs, fight about that. If you feel
he bullies you, fight about that. If you resent that he expects you to meet
his needs, fight about that.
>I don't know how to counter my SOs disappointment without feeling
>defensive about it.
Maybe feel offensive about it. Maybe write him a letter you're not going to
send. You know how you can sort of channel yourself? One thing leads to
another to another, and you find yourself saying things you didn't even know
you were thinking? Or, of course, counselling.
Do you two discuss where you want your relationship to go from here? I
understand why you would not get married with all those teen boys around. But
did you have plans for after they grew up?
Because your SO is childless and single and hooks up with his GF once a week.
I can't criticize him for wanting something more. And there is no way I would
buy that torture time with my DH and his teen kid counted as "Time For Us."
What I am hearing from you is that you don't want to put any more effort into
your relationship right now than you already are. I'm also getting whiffs of
you aren't sure that you will want to in the future. I get the feeling that you
feel you have to protect yourself.
jane
>
>Deb R.
Deborah M Riel
jane <janel...@aol.com> wrote:
>No, no. But you're lying to yourself if you think you're doing this because
>you're protecting your son. You're pissed as hell at your SO.
I don't really think I'm protecting my son as much as I think I'm
parenting him.
And yes, I guess I'm pissed.
>Do you two discuss where you want your relationship to go from here? I
>understand why you would not get married with all those teen boys around. But
>did you have plans for after they grew up?
We haven't discussed this in a long time.
>Because your SO is childless and single and hooks up with his GF once a week.
>I can't criticize him for wanting something more. And there is no way I would
>buy that torture time with my DH and his teen kid counted as "Time For Us."
>What I am hearing from you is that you don't want to put any more effort into
>your relationship right now than you already are. I'm also getting whiffs of
>you aren't sure that you will want to in the future. I get the feeling that you
>feel you have to protect yourself.
You're probably exactly right for at least part of this. I feel like
I put a huge effort into this for a long time. I spent countless
hours doing family-type things with him and his kids. I did all the
hosting, cooking, etc. at my house whenever we got together. I put a
lot of effort into trying to be flexible around his schedule with his
kids, around his work and school schedule when he was in grad school,
around his lack of money when he was the poor one, and around trying
to gently back off when he'd tell me he wasn't ready to move in
whatever direction we seemed to be headed.
I feel like he's rejected full commitment to me piece-by-piece. I've
spent so much time making sure I've sufficiently backed off, that now
I have trouble seeing us at all sometimes. I don't want to reject my
family (my son) and I don't feel like he likes him very much. I worry
about what that would mean in the future.
Deb R.
Deborah M Riel
jane <janel...@aol.com> wrote:
>But you not putting enough time into your relationship with SO is totally his
>business. I cannot believe that you can't find a second night a week to spend
>with him. What about Friday? Or Sunday? Or whatever night you both happen to
>be free?
I could. We do. What he wants is the childfree overnights.
That's it in a nutshell.
>>I hate feeling in the middle of conflict.
>
>What do you mean by this?
I'm a conflict avoider, and so is my SO.
Deb R.
Geri and sometimes Brian
>spent so much time making sure I've sufficiently backed off, that now
>I have trouble seeing us at all sometimes.
Not to sound like Dr. Laura, but maybe it is time to cut loose and give both of
you the freedom to find a relationship that works better for each of you.
~~Geri~~
WhansaMi
>family (my son) and I don't feel like he likes him very much. I worry
>about what that would mean in the future.
>
>Deb R.
Deb, this was what came out strongly to me in the first post, and what I see as
the major underpinning of the problem (and why I didn't respond immediately to
your post, because I was afraid that broaching it would make you upset). Your
SO sounds like he doesn't like your son. Going from biweekly times together
with all the kids to none? Choosing not to come over when the kid is there?
Yeah... I'd say odds are that he doesn't.
Is this something you can live with in the long run? He may be sitting around
saying to himself, "Well, the kid will move out soon, and then Deb and I can
start living our lives more together," but, (if it is true that he just doesn't
like the kid) will that be okay with you on a day to day basis?
It seems to me that thisis something you should explore with your ex. How does
he feel about your son? How will he feel if the kid moves out, but is coming
around for dinner every third night? (Which, since you've said you want him to
always feel welcome, you'd be happy to have happen).
Sheila
The Watsons
>
> As a lot of you know, I have an SO who doesn't live with me. He's an
> NCP of twin boys the approx. age as my son. We've been together since
> 1997.
that's a respectable chunk of time....congrats...:D
>So, what that means for us is that I now have rare
> kid-free nights and he has all kid-free nights. He's becoming kind of
> annoyed with the whole change of scene.
>
i've heard that you only have one night a week free? to be honest, i'd
probably be getting irritated by now too....you can't maintain any kind of
romantic relationship on one night a week...and ya know, it's really not
fair to either one of you or your son-you are more than just "the woman with
the kid and the groceries in the car"...
> My feeling is that I have this small amount of time left to be the
> parent, and I damn well better be one.
kinda like that last minute crunch before the exam? hon, you've got 17 Years
of parenting with him-you've done great up till now, you'll continue to do
great, there's not much last minute stuff that you can cram in now that you
haven't already worked on....honest, once he leaves, he'll be fine-he knows
where to find you, and he knows he can come talk to you....and you'll be
fine too...:)
> To me, that means being the
> home base person--being around most of the time in the evenings so I
> can keep at least loose tabs on my son's coming and going. My gut
> says that he's not quite a child, and not quite an adult and still
> needs to know that I am the established person who he knows is around.
well, yeah-you're Mom...he Knows you're around...
> If he has a house full of friends coming and going, I don't feel right
> about going out and leaving them. I don't feel right about going out when
> someone else's kids are here for the night, even if all the kids are
> in and out of the house all evening.
if i can be rude-it's not like he's the kind of guy that'll have the keg
delivered five minutes after you're out the door...i like jane's idea of a
cell phone and "call me if somebody's dying or the house burns down"...
> I do spend Tuesday evenings at my SO's house for dinner and a movie,
> while my son is at his GFs house. I also go out for a pottery class
> on Wednesday evenings for a couple of hours, so I'm not so wrapped up
> in being around that I *never* leave. My SO has pretty much decided
> that he doesn't like to come over when my son's around, because they're
> pretty different in temperament and lifestyles. But, now he's
> disappointed that we don't spend enough time together. He doesn't seem
> to get that what's happening to him with his kids is really the same
> thing happening to me with mine, except the shoe is on the other foot.
no, it seems like he's already used to the kids not being there, and you're
just starting to face that possibility....and again, i'd prolly be kind of
irritated at one night a week, too...
> His ex is the one with the kids all the time. He wonders why I don't
> insist that my son go to his dad's on Saturday nights, but at the same
> time, he's not insisting that his kids come to his house each weekend.
> My son usually flat out refuses to go to his dad's, and frankly at 17,
> I don't think I could or should make him go.
no, what he wants is for your son to get outta the house so you two can do
whatever it is you old folks do at night (cards? cane races? i dunno) when
we're not around....you don't wanna go out when your son's around, he
doesn't wanna come over when your son's around, you two need a compromise
because i can foretell in my magic coffeecup that unless something gives
somewhere, this relationship is over...
> I hate feeling in the middle of conflict. I don't really know how to
> how to proceed.
*w 'n' f* i can understand that...my question is-what Do you want? seven
years in a relationship isn't something you take lightly, or just throw away
when you're done....you've been single this whole time, do you Want this
relationship to grow, or do you want just a convenient dinner partner, or
what do you want? when was the last time you sat down and thought about
this, and talked to your SO about it? don't think so much about your
son-this is about You, and i seriously doubt your son will have a heart
attack if he sees mom getting dressed up to go out and she tells him not to
wait up....
in a nutshell, hon, i think it's time to be selfish....:) what do You want?
Jess
The Watsons
> I could. We do. What he wants is the childfree overnights.
> That's it in a nutshell.
that's bad?
Jess
The Watsons
"WhansaMi" <whan...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040307112539...@mb-m05.aol.com...
what i'm wondering is if things could change now that her son's turning into
an adult-mebbe that "obnoxious kid of my girlfriend's" will turn into "a
decent enough young man"....
Jess
WhansaMi
>an adult-mebbe that "obnoxious kid of my girlfriend's" will turn into "a
>decent enough young man"....
>
>Jess
It is possible, but I wouldn't count on it for the purpose of managing the
relationship. One has to take the situation as it is, and go from there, IMO.
Sheila
Kathy Cole
If Deb doesn't have them to give (and it sounds like she doesn't), she
can't accommodate that request.
The Watsons
> It is possible, but I wouldn't count on it for the purpose of managing the
> relationship. One has to take the situation as it is, and go from there,
IMO.
but it's a variable to be considered, and possibly discussed between them...
Jess
The Watsons
"Kathy Cole" <ka...@scconsult.com> wrote in message
news:vvkm40dvu7upbhgg1...@4ax.com...
> If Deb doesn't have them to give (and it sounds like she doesn't), she
> can't accommodate that request.
it doesn't sound like she doesn't have them or can't make them, it sounds
like she's not sure if she Wants to offer them..
Jess
_calinda_
It sure sounded like she didn't have child free over-nights
available to me.
Cal~
The Watsons
"_calinda_" <calinda...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:YaJ2c.26565$aT1....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> It sure sounded like she didn't have child free over-nights
> available to me.
she can make them, and i'm sure her son isn't home 24-7....
Jess
Joy
"The Watsons" <warped...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:5dJ2c.16170$id3.2115@fed1read01...
17 year old son "you'll have to spend the night somewhere else tonight,
because I'm having a sleepover with my boyfriend".
Joy
The Watsons
"Joy" <joydoesn...@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:yeJ2c.74329$Tn.3...@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> Make them how? I think you should think long and hard before telling your
> 17 year old son "you'll have to spend the night somewhere else tonight,
> because I'm having a sleepover with my boyfriend".
"i'm going out tonight, there's a pizza in the freezer if you get hungry;
i'll have my cell phone if you need me, and this is a rough itinerary of
where i'll be; see you when i get home"...
and at 17, an adult having a romantic life isn't going to traumatize the way
it would a seven year old...
Jess
Joy
She could probably accomodate dinner or an evening together more often - but
staying out all night when you still have a teenager at home is a whole
different thing. It seems like the boyfriend would recognize that.
Joy
>
> "Joy" <joydoesn...@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:yeJ2c.74329$Tn.3...@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> > Make them how? I think you should think long and hard before telling
your
> > 17 year old son "you'll have to spend the night somewhere else tonight,
> > because I'm having a sleepover with my boyfriend".
>
> "i'm going out tonight, there's a pizza in the freezer if you get hungry;
> i'll have my cell phone if you need me, and this is a rough itinerary of
> where i'll be; see you when i get home"...
What the OP said was "What he wants is the childfree overnights." Maybe
I'm misinterpreting overnight - I took it that the boyfriend wanted her to
spend the night at his place, leaving the teenager home alone all night.
There wouldn't be any "see you when I get home" - because she wouldn't be
coming home, at least not until the next day.
>
> and at 17, an adult having a romantic life isn't going to traumatize the
way
> it would a seven year old...
I don't see anything wrong with the romantic life - I do see something wrong
with a boyfriend who dislikes the kid enough to refuse to spend time around
him. I also see potential problems in leaving kids - even older teens -
home alone over night. Some might be ready for it - but a lot are not
ready.
Then there is the issue of setting an example - if you are very obviously
having sleepovers with your SO, then you are going to have a lot more
trouble telling your teenagers they shouldn't do likewise. If you are
comfortable with your teenagers spending the night with
boyfriends/girlfriends, then that is your business. Not everyone would want
that, though, and it is a lot harder to say "no you shouldn't do that" when
the kids can come back with "why not, you did it just last night". It is
definitely something you want to think through, and it isn't good for your
SO to pressure you to do something in this regard that you aren't
comfortable with.
jane
>I put a huge effort into this for a long time. I spent countless
>hours doing family-type things with him and his kids. I did all the
>hosting, cooking, etc. at my house whenever we got together. I put a
>lot of effort into trying to be flexible around his schedule with his
>kids, around his work and school schedule when he was in grad school,
>around his lack of money when he was the poor one, and around trying
>to gently back off when he'd tell me he wasn't ready to move in
>whatever direction we seemed to be headed.
>I feel like he's rejected full commitment to me piece-by-piece. I've
>spent so much time making sure I've sufficiently backed off, that now
>I have trouble seeing us at all sometimes.
Okay, but.
I'm feeling around in the dark here. There's something I'm not getting. Over
the years from time to time you've mentioned that SO backed out of your wedding
plans. Your position has always been that it was probably for the best.
Deb, if you feel that your needs haven't been met over the years, bitch slap
yourself. Then, go in strong with: My needs *will* be met in this
relationship, or there won't be one. What you're doing now is bitching because
he did manage to get his needs met and because he's pushing to get them met
now. That's not the approach I'd take, because that's not the problem.
I can't figure out how to say this right. I just finished power-reading The
Hobbit for my book club, and I keep thinking in terms of trolls and elves and
dwarves.
I always regret it when I come at one of these conflicts sideways. Half way
through I realize that everything I've said up to that point has nothing to do
with what I'm mad about; 3/4 of the way through I realize that I'm really mad
at myself.
Your consideration for SO's situtation in the past has nothing to do with
anything. Whether SO likes DS or not has nothing with anything. What you need
to know is how SO will act. Regardless of how he feels about your son (or
anything else), does SO consider your feelings and wishes to be significantly
important to suck it up sometimes. Apparently, you don't feel he does enough,
and he feels he does too much.
> I don't want to reject my
>family (my son) and I don't feel like he likes him very much. I worry
>about what that would mean in the future.
I'll tell you something, Deb. I'm not happy about the next part of this. But
it's got to be said. I think you're using your son as a shield. Parenting is
pretext here. You're not arguing you *want* to be home with your son; you're
arguing that you *need* to. Your SO doesn't believe that, and neither do I.
Of course, if you're like me, you could argue to the death on that point, and
never get to the real issue, like maybe why SO is giving you shit for doing
what you *want* to do or why he shows no respect for your commitments or the
other relationships in your life, or why you don't feel he puts as much into
your relationship with him as he expects from you.
I'm not trying to make this about me, but I do relate it to my experience. I
feel like an idiot when I realize that I have been fighting tooth and nail over
something I really don't believe. It's always, always because there is
something unpalatable about saying what I do believe. I don't know if you
don't want to tell your SO that you just aren't interested in seeing him that
much anymore, or you've got some problem with saying, "because want it, that's
why, damn it" or you're challenged in the area of deciding when your own
interests come first and pretext is safer. I'm just saying, pick solid terrain
for your battles.
jane
>
>Deb R.
jane
>That's it in a nutshell.
>
>>>I hate feeling in the middle of conflict.
>>
>>What do you mean by this?
>
>I'm a conflict avoider, and so is my SO.
Oh, great.
Look, Deb, would your SO consider a counselor for a few sessions? They can
really help in this kind of situation. Because with both of you being conflict
avoiders it can take forever to get stuff resolved, or even to get to what
you're trying to resolve.
How about a weekend away? Your son can stay with his father or a friend. And
yes, you can boot him out of his own house for a weekend so that you spend some
time alone with your SO.
jane
>
>Deb R.
The Watsons
> What the OP said was "What he wants is the childfree overnights." Maybe
> I'm misinterpreting overnight - I took it that the boyfriend wanted her to
> spend the night at his place, leaving the teenager home alone all night.
> There wouldn't be any "see you when I get home" - because she wouldn't be
> coming home, at least not until the next day.
and? it sounds to me like Deb trusts her son to not have a keg delivery five
minutes after she's pulled out of the driveway...i seriously doubt it's
going to scar him for life if mom spends the night out occasionally...if he
gets hurt, he knows how to call 911...if something dire happens, he'll have
a way to get in touch with her or someone else she trusts...
> I don't see anything wrong with the romantic life - I do see something
wrong
> with a boyfriend who dislikes the kid enough to refuse to spend time
around
> him.
that's something Deb does need to consider, and address with him....like i
pointed out to Sheila, that could change now that her son is older and they
can relate as adults...
>I also see potential problems in leaving kids - even older teens -
> home alone over night. Some might be ready for it - but a lot are not
> ready.
you leave them a safety net, and again, it sounds like she trusts his
responsibility...
> Then there is the issue of setting an example - if you are very obviously
> having sleepovers with your SO, then you are going to have a lot more
> trouble telling your teenagers they shouldn't do likewise.
not necessarily, and he's getting to the age where she's not going to have
much say-she very well can't tell him not to spend the night with a
girlfriend if he's not living at home with her...
>If you are
> comfortable with your teenagers spending the night with
> boyfriends/girlfriends, then that is your business. Not everyone would
want
> that, though, and it is a lot harder to say "no you shouldn't do that"
when
> the kids can come back with "why not, you did it just last night".
"because i'm older and more prepared to handle the consequences of my
actions than you are at this age; until i feel you're ready to handle those
consequences, the answer is no"...
>It is
> definitely something you want to think through, and it isn't good for your
> SO to pressure you to do something in this regard that you aren't
> comfortable with.
no, but he does have a right to speak up and say something if he's not
happy...i would definently want my SO to speak up and tell me if there was
something wrong (and he has, and does)...
Jess
The Watsons
> She could probably accomodate dinner or an evening together more often -
but
> staying out all night when you still have a teenager at home is a whole
> different thing. It seems like the boyfriend would recognize that.
if the teenager in question were thirteen, i'd say the same thing....if the
teenager in question wasn't as responsible as Deb's son, i'd say the same
thing....neither applies...he's an older teen, responsible enough not to
throw wild parties, and self sufficient enough to pull a nukeable pizza out
and maybe rent a movie from blockbuster or watch reruns on tv or otherwise
amuse himself for an evening...
Jess
heather m.
>
> what i'm wondering is if things could change now that her son's turning
into
> an adult-mebbe that "obnoxious kid of my girlfriend's" will turn into "a
> decent enough young man"....
>
> Jess
Jess, not trying to sound ugly, but that is just incredibly unrealistic when
it comes to making choices that affect your life. Of course, I'm not saying
he's obnoxious, I'm talking about the basing your life on "maybe" factor.
It's just really unwise. It's like living your life on unstable ground, and
at 27, I've learned that it's best to keep yourself on firm footing. You
can't make up years in your life, it's best to make the most solid choices
now so you don't end up hating yourself five years down the road.
Heather
The Watsons
"heather m." <heath...@nunya.com> wrote in message
news:j%K2c.718$Cm3...@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Jess, not trying to sound ugly, but that is just incredibly unrealistic
when
> it comes to making choices that affect your life. Of course, I'm not
saying
> he's obnoxious, I'm talking about the basing your life on "maybe" factor.
> It's just really unwise. It's like living your life on unstable ground,
and
> at 27, I've learned that it's best to keep yourself on firm footing. You
> can't make up years in your life, it's best to make the most solid choices
> now so you don't end up hating yourself five years down the road.
you're not sounding ugly, and yes, i know what you're talking about-BTDT
too, remember?...:) that's why i said it's something she needs to think
about and discuss with him...if he absolutely can't stand her son, has no
intention of doing anything with her when her son's around, then that'd
prolly be a dealbreaker...but if son and SO have something in common that
they can build on from there now that son's older, then that'd be cool
too...
Jess
Geri and sometimes Brian
>pointed out to Sheila, that could change now that her son is older and they
>can relate as adults...
Well, if I read Deb's posts correctly, it is still going to be a while before
the son moves out. So, does she want to waste potentially several more years
of her life on a maybe?
~~Geri~~
The Watsons
"Geri and sometimes Brian" <gple...@aol.comGOBIGRED> wrote in message
news:20040307151047...@mb-m11.aol.com...
> Well, if I read Deb's posts correctly, it is still going to be a while
before
> the son moves out. So, does she want to waste potentially several more
years
> of her life on a maybe?
isn't that part of what we've suggested she might need to consider?
Jess
Deborah M Riel
jane <janel...@aol.com> wrote:
>Look, Deb, would your SO consider a counselor for a few sessions? They can
>really help in this kind of situation. Because with both of you being conflict
>avoiders it can take forever to get stuff resolved, or even to get to what
>you're trying to resolve.
>
>How about a weekend away? Your son can stay with his father or a friend. And
>yes, you can boot him out of his own house for a weekend so that you spend some
>time alone with your SO.
>
>jane
I actually have been using this thread as my springboard. It started
last night on the phone, and today I took it live to the SO. We met
for a walk, a talk, a movie, and some more talk over lattes at his
place.
We've made some moves in the right direction. We've decided that a
weekend away every month or so would be a good thing. We both realize
how we avoid conflict, and are going to make an effort to say what's
on our minds as it comes up. He doesn't hate my son. He admitted to
being used to being by himself to the point of preferring it often. I
admitted to confusion.
I still believe that the parenting aspect is a real issue for me, and
I have to treat it that way to be honest with myself. He agreed that he
needs to accept that I'm just not as free with my time as he can be.
He mentioned that he's been particularly bothered by the direction his
work is taking, and that he's been taking it out on me.
I still don't know how this will turn out in the long run, because we
have some differences that weren't magically fixed in an afternoon.
But, we both agree that we'd like to see things get back on track.
I had a good afternoon. I enjoyed it.
Deb R.
Deborah M Riel
Joy <joydoesn...@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>She could probably accomodate dinner or an evening together more often - but
>staying out all night when you still have a teenager at home is a whole
>different thing. It seems like the boyfriend would recognize that.
You're right that I won't leave my junior-in-high-school son home
alone while I go spend the night at my SOs house. That doesn't sit
well with me. Not that he doesn't know that we do it or anything. Of
course he knows. I'm just not going to leave him at home alone
overnight. That's not the kind of mom I want to be. My SO realizes
this, and I think he agrees that even if he doesn't like it, that's
how I need to have it.
We're trying the dinner & movie night thing, and some weekend
afternoons, at his place, to avoid the popping in and out of the kids
and all the disruptions. We're going to try a few weekends away every
now and then, too.
We talked some of this out today.
Deb R.
Deborah M Riel
Geri and sometimes Brian <gple...@aol.comGOBIGRED> wrote:
>Well, if I read Deb's posts correctly, it is still going to be a while before
>the son moves out. So, does she want to waste potentially several more years
>of her life on a maybe?
>
Sure. I don't have any kind of overwhelming desire to be married. I
just want to be in a comfortable, happy & enjoyable relationship. It
hasn't been comfortable, happy and enjoyable lately, though, and we
need to get it out in the open and get it back to that place if
possible.
Deb R.
>
>
>
Deborah M Riel
The Watsons <warped...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>if the teenager in question were thirteen, i'd say the same thing....if the
>teenager in question wasn't as responsible as Deb's son, i'd say the same
>thing....neither applies...he's an older teen, responsible enough not to
>throw wild parties, and self sufficient enough to pull a nukeable pizza out
>and maybe rent a movie from blockbuster or watch reruns on tv or otherwise
>amuse himself for an evening...
>
>Jess
Jess, he's getting there, but he's not a *particularly* responsible
kid. He'd be out roaming the neighborhood all night with his friends
if I gave him free reign. I live in a fairly large city, and I don't
think that's a really good idea. I feel much better with him
knowing that I'm in at a certain time, and I'll be expecting him in at
a certain time as well. I want him to know that I'll be keeping that
much of an eye on him.
Deb R.
Geri and sometimes Brian
>just want to be in a comfortable, happy & enjoyable relationship.
I guess you need to figure out how that meshes with what his long-term goals
are. Based on what you have posted, this relationship seems kind of like one
of those ones that will eventually just drift apart. However, it appears that
at least the two of you are communicating about it.
~~Geri~~
jane
>We've made some moves in the right direction. We've decided that a
>weekend away every month or so would be a good thing. We both realize
>how we avoid conflict, and are going to make an effort to say what's
>on our minds as it comes up.
Excellent, excellent, and excellent.
>I still believe that the parenting aspect is a real issue for me, and
>I have to treat it that way to be honest with myself.
Right. Look, about earlier... I don't explain this stuff well.
People very often do not argue about what is bothering them. They argue about
what they both feel comfortable arguing about. That you would choose this
place to take a stand makes perfect sense to me. Of course you can't leave
your son home alone all night if you don't feel comfortable. Why your SO is
choosing this place is not at all clear to me.
>I had a good afternoon. I enjoyed it.
Also excellent.
jane
>
>Deb R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Subject: Re: relationships and parenting (long)
>Path:
>lobby!ngtf-m01.news.aol.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!feed2.newsreader.com!news
reader.com!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.news2me.com!arclight.uore
gon.edu!news.tufts.edu!bigboote.WPI.EDU!not-for-mail
>From: dr...@wpi.edu (Deborah M Riel)
>Newsgroups: alt.support.step-parents
>Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 22:13:06 +0000 (UTC)
>Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA
>Lines: 40
>Message-ID: <c2g6pi$1cul$1...@bigboote.WPI.EDU>
>References: <c2ffvr$10bq$2...@bigboote.WPI.EDU>
><20040307133743...@mb-m17.aol.com>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: rational.wpi.edu
>X-Trace: bigboote.WPI.EDU 1078697586 46037 130.215.56.155 (7 Mar 2004
>22:13:06 GMT)
>X-Complaints-To: ab...@wpi.edu
>NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 22:13:06 +0000 (UTC)
>X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001)
>Originator: dr...@wpi.edu (Deborah M Riel)
>
The Watsons
> Jess, he's getting there, but he's not a *particularly* responsible
> kid. He'd be out roaming the neighborhood all night with his friends
> if I gave him free reign. I live in a fairly large city, and I don't
> think that's a really good idea. I feel much better with him
> knowing that I'm in at a certain time, and I'll be expecting him in at
> a certain time as well. I want him to know that I'll be keeping that
> much of an eye on him.
then that works too...:D
Jess
The Watsons
> We've made some moves in the right direction. We've decided that a
> weekend away every month or so would be a good thing. We both realize
> how we avoid conflict, and are going to make an effort to say what's
> on our minds as it comes up. He doesn't hate my son. He admitted to
> being used to being by himself to the point of preferring it often. I
> admitted to confusion.
>
> I still believe that the parenting aspect is a real issue for me, and
> I have to treat it that way to be honest with myself. He agreed that he
> needs to accept that I'm just not as free with my time as he can be.
> He mentioned that he's been particularly bothered by the direction his
> work is taking, and that he's been taking it out on me.
>
> I still don't know how this will turn out in the long run, because we
> have some differences that weren't magically fixed in an afternoon.
> But, we both agree that we'd like to see things get back on track.
>
> I had a good afternoon. I enjoyed it.
coolness...:D
Jess
Amy Lou
> OK, I'm looking for something, but I don't know what.
How about you compare what you and your SO have now compared to what you
would have if you were married or living in the one house? Take me and my DH
for eg. We don't get any kid free nights! DH has had to put up with a kid in
his face every day who he'd rather not have to put up with. We have to make
time for ourselves whilst the kids are still around somewhere in the
background.
The way I see it your SO has one night a week with you alone. Why can't he
come over to your place and spend another night a week with you whilst your
son is pottering around doing his thing in the background?
I say you ought to stick to your guns. Invite him over to your place, make
it sound really inviting and don't take no for an answer.
Amy
kitty
celebrate 10 years :)
"The Watsons" <warped...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:72L2c.16195$id3.6474@fed1read01...
The Watsons
Jess
"kitty" <pu...@meeooo.com> wrote in message
news:7e63c.143550$Xp.591158@attbi_s54...
Amy Lou
> weekend away every month or so would be a good thing. We both realize
> how we avoid conflict, and are going to make an effort to say what's
> on our minds as it comes up. He doesn't hate my son. He admitted to
> being used to being by himself to the point of preferring it often. I
> admitted to confusion.
That confuses me too because I thought he wanted to spend more time with
you - that's not being by himself.
>
> I still believe that the parenting aspect is a real issue for me, and
> I have to treat it that way to be honest with myself. He agreed that he
> needs to accept that I'm just not as free with my time as he can be.
> He mentioned that he's been particularly bothered by the direction his
> work is taking, and that he's been taking it out on me.
>
I wonder if SO feels he has to compete with your son for your affection and
attention. If he's feelings stressed about work he might be looking for
extra comfort from you in the form of ego stroking.
BTW just out of interest do you find you are raising your son without a male
point of view?
Amy
Deborah M Riel
Amy Lou <amyl...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>That confuses me too because I thought he wanted to spend more time with
>you - that's not being by himself.
I guess this translates into preferring being by himself over joining
in with my family time. When he wants to do something, he'll happily
do it by himself, which isn't a bad thing, but I feel that he's backed
off from a relationship with the "whole me" preferring one with the
"childfree me." He's kind of used to living in a self-centered world,
I think.
>BTW just out of interest do you find you are raising your son without a male
>point of view?
>
>Amy
I really don't know, Amy. He has a father who he sees and talks to,
but I think they both pretty much reject each other in a lot of ways.
What's a male point of view, anyway? How would you define it?
Deb R.
jane
>>you - that's not being by himself.
>
>I guess this translates into preferring being by himself over joining
>in with my family time. When he wants to do something, he'll happily
>do it by himself, which isn't a bad thing, but I feel that he's backed
>off from a relationship with the "whole me" preferring one with the
>"childfree me." He's kind of used to living in a self-centered world,
>I think.
I don't know, though. I don't feel comfortable with contrasting the *whole*
you with the *childfree* you. And I'm not sure it has anything to do with
being self-centered.
I think a mate should support you in all your roles. I'm not sure it's
reasonable to expect him to get into all of them, though. You're different
people with different interests, different lives.
I don't particularly enjoy family time with other people's families. I don't
hang out with my friends in their houses when their kids are coming in and out.
I don't like the distraction, the divided attention, the regular
interruptions. It's frustrating. I like to be able to focus on my friend.
jane
>Deb R.
Geri and sometimes Brian
>you with the *childfree* you.
Actually, technically, there is nobody here who is childfree or who even has
childfree moments. Childfree means you don't have children and aren't raising
children. Perhaps a more accurate term would be "child-absent".
Geri
(splitting hairs today)
~~Geri~~
Vicki Robinson
>Geri
>(splitting hairs today)
>
I'll bet if you went over to alt.fashion, someone there could suggest
a conditioner for that.
Vicki
--
Just to think I used to worry about things like that.
Used to worry 'bout rich and skinny
'til I wound up poor and fat.
-Delbert McClinton
Geri and sometimes Brian
>>(splitting hairs today)
>>
>
>I'll bet if you went over to alt.fashion, someone there could suggest
>a conditioner for that.
Yeah - I actually have several good ones. Plus last week I got about five
inches cut off my hair - it is only mid-back length now.
~~Geri~~
Deborah M Riel
jane <janel...@aol.com> wrote:
>I don't know, though. I don't feel comfortable with contrasting the *whole*
>you with the *childfree* you. And I'm not sure it has anything to do with
>being self-centered.
I'm not necessarily referring to self-centered as a bad thing. It
just is. He'd tell you that himself, and he told me that too. I just
didn't believe him at the time. I thought he was being harsh to
himself. I don't mean selfish, but centered
around himself, not outwardly centered. Does that even make sense?
>I think a mate should support you in all your roles. I'm not sure it's
>reasonable to expect him to get into all of them, though. You're different
>people with different interests, different lives.
Part of what originally attracted us to each other was our role as
single parents. He said when we first got together that he admired my
parenting. A lot of what we did together had to do with our various
kids. But, as much as he's feeling adrift because I'm still very
involved in the parenting role, I'm feeling adrift because he's
backing away from that part of my life. Hence the confusion, or at least part
of the confusion. Plus, I believe that the more you back away and ask
others to back away, the less meaningful a relationship becomes. It
becomes mostly about being different people with different lives.
That's when I start my inner self-protection behavior.
>I don't particularly enjoy family time with other people's families. I don't
>hang out with my friends in their houses when their kids are coming in and out.
> I don't like the distraction, the divided attention, the regular
>interruptions. It's frustrating. I like to be able to focus on my friend.
>
Yeah, I do too-- with everyday friends. But this is a
relationship that's been exclusive and in existence for 7 years.
I don't want all family time, either. I love adult time. I guess
I expect more assimilation in a relationship than I would with a friend,
though.
Deb R.
ni...@impactwp.com
news:20040309114642...@mb-m23.aol.com...
Geri please promise me that if you ever come to England we'll meet. You have
to have red nails, wear your hair down and be wearing plaid. And your shoes
need to match your handbag. OK?
N
Geri and sometimes Brian
>to have red nails, wear your hair down and be wearing plaid. And your shoes
>need to match your handbag. OK?
Ok. I will wear a hat, too! :-)
~~Geri~~
ni...@impactwp.com
"Geri and sometimes Brian" <gple...@aol.comGOBIGRED> wrote in message
Yes!
N
kitty
"The Watsons" <warped...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:tia3c.89$Nj.70@fed1read01...
Anne Robotti
Riel) wrote:
>OK, I'm looking for something, but I don't know what.
>
Deb, been trying to respond to this forever, but what I know about
working out relationships could fit in a thimble, so I'll just say
good luck to you and I hope it works out.
Anne
The Watsons
Jess
"kitty" <pu...@meeooo.com> wrote in message
news:Ogp3c.160695$4o.210885@attbi_s52...
> McQ and Brewer :)
Amy Lou
"Deborah M Riel" <dr...@wpi.edu> wrote in message
news:c2kjr2$ldu$1...@bigboote.WPI.EDU...
> In article <fod3c.94368$Wa....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
> Amy Lou <amyl...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> >That confuses me too because I thought he wanted to spend more time with
> >you - that's not being by himself.
>
> I guess this translates into preferring being by himself over joining
> in with my family time. When he wants to do something, he'll happily
> do it by himself, which isn't a bad thing, but I feel that he's backed
> off from a relationship with the "whole me" preferring one with the
> "childfree me." He's kind of used to living in a self-centered world,
> I think.
>
I know you are trying hard to understand his feelings. How does it affect
you though, knowing that he doesn't want to spend time with your 'family'
anymore? It seems strange to me. Why did he spend time with your family
before and not now?
> >BTW just out of interest do you find you are raising your son without a
male
> >point of view?
> >
> >Amy
>
> I really don't know, Amy. He has a father who he sees and talks to,
> but I think they both pretty much reject each other in a lot of ways.
Im a strong believer in boys having male role models. More than one if the
one available isn't someone they admire.
>
> What's a male point of view, anyway? How would you define it?
What I mean is are you raising your son with no input from a man? Do you get
a male perspective on things? I think I'd be raising my son a lot
differently if I didn't have the male point of view on things that I get
from DH's input. Does your SO give you ideas/advice on how boys think and
what boys need? Im just wondering if he doesn't want to spend time with your
'family' does that mean he doesn't enjoy discussing 'family' issues with you
too?
Amy
jane
>around himself, not outwardly centered. Does that even make sense?
No. But that might be because I'm the same way and don't see it.
>But, as much as he's feeling adrift because I'm still very
>involved in the parenting role, I'm feeling adrift because he's
>backing away from that part of my life. Hence the confusion, or at least
>part of the confusion.
People handle kids leaving the nest in different ways, I think. Besides, his
kids have left sooner than yours. He's in a different stage of life. Maybe he
misses them and doesn't want to be around other parents whose kids haven't left
yet. You know, like when you break up and you can't stand being around people
in love.
>Plus, I believe that the more you back away and ask
>others to back away, the less meaningful a relationship becomes. It
>becomes mostly about being different people with different lives.
>That's when I start my inner self-protection behavior.
Yeah, this I don't get. You *are* different people with different lives. You,
for example, are still actively parenting a child in the home. He's past that
stage now. I guess I just don't see how it's backing away. He's just a step
ahead of you. Maybe it's significant that the step he has gone is not one
you're not entirely looking forward to taking yourself.
>I guess
>I expect more assimilation in a relationship than I would with a friend,
>though.
I'm not sure I do. I'm not sure I know what you mean, though.
jane
>
>Deb R.
Deborah M Riel
jane <janel...@aol.com> wrote:
>Yeah, this I don't get. You *are* different people with different lives.
I think what I'm feeling is that when too much of the focus becomes
"different people with different lives" then you might as well be
strangers, or acquaintances at best. The ideal for me is when the
relationship has both room for maintaining the differences in your lives
*plus* a lot of good mingling and mixing of everything that makes up
each individual's life. That's what I'm talking about when I say
assimilation. I want to feel comfortably a part of my SO's life, and
I want him to feel comfortably a part of mine. It's closer that way--
it's a *relationship.* The problem is maintaining the balance and not
tipping the scales too much in either direction.
Deborah M Riel
Amy Lou <amyl...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>> I really don't know, Amy. He has a father who he sees and talks to,
>> but I think they both pretty much reject each other in a lot of ways.
>
>Im a strong believer in boys having male role models. More than one if the
>one available isn't someone they admire.
Well, I guess I can't really see myself going out in search of a male
role model to give my son. I'm not really sure how one would approach
this. I think he kind of has to figure out for himself who his role
models will be, with input from me if necessary. If he doesn't figure
out for himself who his role models are, then they aren't very likely
to be role models for him, are they? He has to relate to them.
>> What's a male point of view, anyway? How would you define it?
>
>What I mean is are you raising your son with no input from a man? Do you get
>a male perspective on things? I think I'd be raising my son a lot
>differently if I didn't have the male point of view on things that I get
>from DH's input. Does your SO give you ideas/advice on how boys think and
>what boys need? Im just wondering if he doesn't want to spend time with your
>'family' does that mean he doesn't enjoy discussing 'family' issues with you
>too?
I don't know exactly what kind of input my son gets from his father.
Their relationship is between them for the most part, at this stage of
my son's life. Sometimes I ask my SO what he thinks about something if I
feel that I might be overreacting to something. He mostly stays out of
offering child rearing advice, though. I don't think parenting comes
naturally to him.
>Amy
Deb R.
jane
>relationship has both room for maintaining the differences in your lives
>*plus* a lot of good mingling and mixing of everything that makes up
>each individual's life
Yeah, I'm not like that. I don't want a lot of mingling and mixing of
everything. For example, DH is not allowed to mention sports in my presence.
I just walk away.
Or take ASSP. DH is aware that I like Anne and Melissa, but he has no idea who
is who, and probably doesn't realize they're different people. In fact, I'm
not sure he knows Melissa and Vicki are different people.
Work stuff we touch base on and listen politely when the other is fired up
about something.
We share interests to different degrees.
jane
Amy Lou
> In article <Nxs3c.95872$Wa.7...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
> Amy Lou <amyl...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I really don't know, Amy. He has a father who he sees and talks to,
> >> but I think they both pretty much reject each other in a lot of ways.
> >
> >Im a strong believer in boys having male role models. More than one if
the
> >one available isn't someone they admire.
>
> Well, I guess I can't really see myself going out in search of a male
> role model to give my son. I'm not really sure how one would approach
> this. I think he kind of has to figure out for himself who his role
> models will be, with input from me if necessary. If he doesn't figure
> out for himself who his role models are, then they aren't very likely
> to be role models for him, are they? He has to relate to them.
No doubt there are men in his life who he has learned from. Teachers,
coaches etc. I just think it is important for boys who don't have a father
that they admire and want to emulate to have access to other men who they
can learn from. Its not a slur on women raising boys just a belief that boys
need to have a male role model to copy IYSWIM. My son's father is not
someone my son admires. Im glad there are other men in his life because they
have been able to show him lots of things that his father couldn't.
>
> >> What's a male point of view, anyway? How would you define it?
> >
> >What I mean is are you raising your son with no input from a man? Do you
get
> >a male perspective on things? I think I'd be raising my son a lot
> >differently if I didn't have the male point of view on things that I get
> >from DH's input. Does your SO give you ideas/advice on how boys think and
> >what boys need? Im just wondering if he doesn't want to spend time with
your
> >'family' does that mean he doesn't enjoy discussing 'family' issues with
you
> >too?
>
> I don't know exactly what kind of input my son gets from his father.
> Their relationship is between them for the most part, at this stage of
> my son's life. Sometimes I ask my SO what he thinks about something if I
> feel that I might be overreacting to something. He mostly stays out of
> offering child rearing advice, though. I don't think parenting comes
> naturally to him.
We have just helped my son to buy his first car. I don't know what he would
have ended up with if it wasn't for DH's experienced advice and bargaining
powers.
I guess your arrangements with SO have worked in that you have both had the
freedom to raise your kids without interference but on the other hand it has
meant you've raised your kids alone. I just find that a bit sad. At one
stage DH and I were having marriage trouble (trouble based around our
differences regarding my son) and we considered living separately (like you
and SO). We both hated the idea and tried really hard to overcome our
differences. I've always felt that parenting is a lot easier than
maintaining a marriage. Arh this isn't coming out right! All I know is that
relationships are bloody hard sometimes. You strike me as the type of person
who has lots of confidence parenting wise but perhaps like me you find
relationships more challenging? I hope you sort things out with your SO.
Amy