5 yr old SS is sending me over the edge
John Hamlin
and has always been a little difficult, but that has mainly been
frustration over his speech and communication problems. His speech has
been coming along nicly and he is in a kindergarten class and exceeeding
expectations regarding his ability to communicate and socially all has
been fine in class. His behavior at home is another story. Total and
complete defiance is the only way to describe his attitude. If I say put
your shoes on, he says NO. If I say brush your teeth he says No. If I
say lets go outside to play he says NO. It doesn't matter what I suggest
or how I word it, even if it is something that he wants to do, he says
NO. Yesterday, he left some toys in the living room, I asked him to take
them back to his room, he picked them up and dropped them in the
hallway, when I asked him again to take them to his room, he picked them
up and threw them at me and screamed "you pick them up". I sent him to
his room, I went to my room and I cried, I was so close to striking him,
I have never felt that way before. When my SO tried to talk to him, and
asked him if he was going to listen to me, SS very honestly answered NO.
He then proceeded to walk away from SO, and refused to return when he
was called back. Unfortunatly, he is being very disruptive to the family
and none of the other four children want much to do with him lately
because of his confrontational attitude. I love this child and we have
always had a wonderful relationship up to this point. This is a sudden
and complete change in behavoir for him and we are at a loss to explain
it. I am afraid that I may end up spanking him because I don't know much
longer I can tolerate this without losing my grip.
Karla
1. PDD: I don't know much about this at all. Is is possible for you to
ask your SS's pediatrician/social worker/behavioralist for information
to help you? I'm not very familiar with Phelan's 1-2-3 Magic; however,
I know people with ADD/ADHD/ODD diagnosed children *swear* by this
program in terms of helping their child learn self-discipline with in
societal contexts. They also say that you should read the book AND
watch the video tape to understand how the whole thing works.
My younger son has a kidney problem that is treatable with steroids
(minimal change nephrotic syndrome) and I use the Faber/Mazlish book
_How To Talk So Your Kids Will Listen and Listen So Your Kids Will Talk_
as my standard reference to help me with his behavioral issues. It's
based upon the theories and work of Dr. Haim Ginnott (_Between Parent
and Child_) and it has worked well for us.
2. My SS has some behavioral issues as well but it is because he is
missing a level of maturity to understand that he is part of the world
and not the whole thing. Again, I tend to fall back of the F&M stuff
and there are days where it takes every ounce of strength in my body to
keep from strangling him (like when he punched me in the face because he
was angry). It doesn't help that the BM encourages this because she's
an angry woman. (We have physical custody and she has standard
visitation due to the court ruling to accept the GAL recommendations.)
The hardest thing to remember in those moments is that spanking only
contradicts what we keep saying about hitting is unacceptable. Better a
distinct consequence of action.
3. RE: toy thing: One of the hardest things I ever did was when someone
told me she threw out her kids's toys. She told them time and time
again to clean up. Finally, she got so made she said, "If I clean it
up, it's into a trash bag and into the garbage." She followed through
and the kids, while still kids, realized she was serious about it from
that point on. I couldn't bear to toss everything, but I did hide it
all in a closet for a while and eventually gave them thier toys back.
But they do know that I will bag and donate stuff to a shelter if I have
to do it again. It's worked for 5 years now...I suspect that so long as
they know I will do something like that, they will believe me when I
say, "I'll bag everything and bring it to a shelter."
Now...just so you don't think that this is always a punishment... we do
go through toys after big present events (Birthdays, holidays, etc.) and
weed through what they don't play with anymore. We bring most of the
stuff to our pediatrician's office to be used in the waiting and exam
rooms. We bag clothes and things on a regular basis and have a
Tzeddekah (charity) box on the microwave and the family decides a couple
of times a year where the money goes. (ie last spring it went to the
NKF pediatric renal research fund, this fall it's going to UUA's guest
at my table)
3. Don't be afraid to set limits and stick to them. It is frustrating
when SS comes home saying, "At mom's house I don't have rules." We know
that is untrue (now). I kept doing what I did for my boys when my ex
and I first split: that's fine for mom's/dad's house. In our house,
this is the rule.... It also cut down a fair amount on the trying to
play us off each other too. It helps that my ex is now able to discuss
certain things that reach across both houses. (Yes, for those who know
me, this is a recent thing over the past 6 months.)
Again, my first step would be speaking with the health professionals and
then working from there. I know that ODD can be hellish, I assume that
PDD is in that category. Remember, we pay these folks to watch out for
our kids in sickness AND health. That's part of their jobs.
hope that helps
karla
Merrie
I don't know anything about PDD and hope someone that has some
experience can offer some suggestions.
I did want to quote a paragraph on disciplining 5.5-6 year olds from the
book:
"Child Behavior The classic child care manual from the Gesell Institute
of
Human Development" by Frances L. Ilg, M.D., Louise Bates Ames, PH.D., and
Sidney M. Baker, M.D. (They have also written several other books titled
"Your Two Year Old" and such for each age.)
5.5-6 years: Recognizing that the initial response of the child of this
age tends to be "No I won't," or "Try and make me," wise parents build this
knowledge into their planning. When a child does respond this rudely and
this negatively, instead of jumping on him, remain clam.
Say something like "Well I guess you're going to need three chances on
that one." This allows the child to rebel, which he does so naturally, and
yet a few minutes later to comply.
Or, as you give a command, as you may have done at Four, add "And let's
see if you can do it before I count to ten [or twenty or thirty]." Also, if
the child is very rebellious, you can count very slowly.
At bedtime chatting time is much appreciated by most 6-year-olds. At
this time, even a very naughty child tends to become gentle. Then, with
some, you can have a little discussion of what you and he could try to make
the next day go better.
I always think it's funny that you can do the counting thing for most
kids, without any consequences attached. You don't have to say "do it by 10
or else..." They just like the challenge. Another thing DH used to do to
speed the kids up, was to da-da-dunt to the William Tell Overture with a
faster beat. Another thing to try (I'm not sure if he's too old for this)
is to make the inanimate objects talk like puppets. When he throws the
shoes down on the floor, move them a bit and in a small voice say "wait,
take me with you..." No child is cold hearted enough to refuse helpless
shoes. If anything it keeps me from getting ticked.
I would also just check with his teacher to see how things are going.
Best of luck,
Merrie
John Hamlin <joh...@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:382D78FF...@sk.sympatico.ca...
Geri and Brian
>longer I can tolerate this without losing my grip.
Does he have any privileges near and dear to his heart that you can remove when
he does this behavior. I know lots of people let their kids this age play
computer games, video games etc. Can you use these as something to remove?
Does time out still work for him?
When I was fairly new on the scene with my SD (who was three at the time), she
went through about a week of telling me NO. It was testing, obviously, and
every time she did it she went into time-out. Once she tried to not stay in a
time-out, and I put her on my lap and held her for that one. 'We have not had
that problem again. (Our time-outs are of the philosophy that they should be
as boring as possible, so that means standing with her face in the corner. She
hates them, so they are very effective for us. We also use them for "calming
down" though we have not had to do this for a long time. When she was at the
tantrum stage, a quick time-out often gave her the chance to think about it
before going into a full blow-out, and she calmed down.)
When he does something defiant like walk away and refuse to come back - he is
five - go take his hand and bring him back. Go and get him and bring him back
to pick up his toys or whatever. I think it always helps to remember you are
the adult - just try to remain calm, don't back down, and don't let him engage
you in an argument. If he wants to throw a tantrum, put him by himself until
he calms down - i.e. remove the audience. (I know some of this is probably
easy for me to say, because I have the type of personality where I very rarely
lose my temper ... some if how you react is your own personality, too, so you
have to think of that.)
Is your wife backing you up when you tell him to do something? It is very
important to have your partner's backing on any direction you give the
children, or you might as well give up.
What is going on different in his life? Is this defiance something new? We
had another three or four days from my SD this past summer, where we really had
to go back and re-teach her all of the rules of our house. She was totally
defiant about everything, even hitting and scratching my husband once. (She is
a strong willed child anyway, but we are very patient and didn't back down when
she challenged us.) But, that behavior came on the heels of spending a week in
the desert with her mother, who was evidently programming her with all sorts of
garbage. So there was an explanation for it. After weathering that week, we
have not had a defiant incident since.
It seems, from your post, like he wants to challenge YOU - how does he act
toward your wife? How does she handle it? Also, has he been sleeping and
eating ok?
Just some thoughts.
Geri
~~~~~~~~~~
"I only talk seriously on the first Tuesday in every month, from 4PM to 7PM."
~~~~~~~~~~
To e-mail us, dump the litterbox. :-)
John Hamlin
3 children and Mom to two. My children are older than his and when I say I have
never dealt with behavior as confrontational and defiant as his I do mean never.
The only big change in SS life is starting kindergarten, which he loves and from
his teachers reports he is doing exceptionally well, with no behavior problems. Yes
you are right, this defiance is directed only at me. Looking back it seems to
coincide with an increase in contact with his BM. She was seeing the children very
sporadically for the past year and recently has started to visit every weekend. All
of the Step-children will start counseling next week and I think it is long past
due. Several other things that I have noticed recently: In the past when I have
dropped the SK off at BM's they have always given the standard kiss and hug
good-bye to me...the past four weekends they will not even say good-bye, just turn
and go into the house. The last time I dropped them off my oldest SD in her haste
to tell her mom something, accidentally called her Mom by my name. BM's response
was to yell "My name is MOM, not LORI". She said my name like it was a dirty word.
BM had oldest SD long hair chopped off that same weekend, against SD's wishes and
without consulting my SO. BM said that she was tired of having to comb it.
(remember that she only sees her on Saturdays, and SD is 8, more than old enough to
comb her own hair). I had taken pains to put up SD's hair into a pretty french
braid that weekend before I dropped her off, at SD's request.
I know I can't control what is said to the children at BM's house, I just hope that
counseling will help them talk about their feelings.
As for the 5 year old, I am and always have been a person with incredible patience,
I have tried time-outs, revoking privileges, removing toys from his room. I have
tried everything that I can think of, and I am still at a loss for what to do. I
love this child but he is impossible to deal with right now and he is disrupting
everyone's life. I don't feel that I can take him anywhere because of his behavior
and attitude, even grocery shopping is a challenge, he takes off on me, has a fit
when I won't buy everything that he wants (everyone usually gets one treat, but he
wants it all). I am actually dreading his return from BM's and I really hate
feeling this way about a child.
Crazy
I really do know what you are going through. My son now age 14 has also been diagnosed
PDD. He has Asperger's Syndrome which is similar to high functioning autism. I have
found that with my son any changes in emotion be it happy, sad, anger,
frustration...would lead to oppositional behaviour. At this point there is no sense
trying to "reason" with or talk to him. I give him a cool down period. Then give him
a choice...either do as I ask or loose a priviledge...such as TV or LEGO. (They are
his obsessions). I found that by trying to deal with it at that moment...he became
even more frustrated and would eventually explode...like a temper tantrum...only it is
a type of seizure common to kids with PDD. These would last several hours, with him
lashing out violently. Fortunately as he got older...things got better.
If you want to email me privately I can explain in great detail my experiences, trials,
and errors.
My thoughts go out to you...and SS...he is very lucky to have someone who cares enough
to help him.
Rhiannon
Karla
Crazy wrote:
>
> > Hi
>
> I really do know what you are going through. My son now age 14 has also been diagnosed
> PDD. He has Asperger's Syndrome which is similar to high functioning autism.
I should send you guys to Shelly's page...let's see, what did I do with
the address:
I know her from a renal e-list. Her son is ODD and has Asperger's as
well. It might help to know that there's someone else out there facing
similar situations. I also believe there may be an elist for
aspergers...I'm not positive.
karla
Kevin
> "My name is MOM, not LORI". She said my name like it was a dirty word.
>
>
said in your post, it sounds like the problem stems from the increased
time with BM and that she's not dealing well with the situation.
Undermining of your place in the SKs lives can be very subtly done, and
unconscious, but it sounds from your above statement that things are far
more overt - I'm guessing BM feels fully justified in this too. The
result - kids feeling ripped. Evolutionary survival has equipped kids
with an insane ability to trust those who are causing suffering, if
those people are the ones who are also providing (enough) nurturance.
Added to that, it's clear that a kid can also 'trust Mom' simply because
she's the one who was there at the outset . . .
Now, what Mom doesn't realise, is that her kids, *any kids*, can love
other people without diminishing their love for their mother - that it's
natural and joyful for kids to do so if they can. Your SK's have a
separate relationship to you from her, but due to her lack of clear
boundaries she is allowing her emotional pain to spill into her kids, and
the result is inferred suffering - their little hearts start to shut down
: (
Arrrrrgh - glad to hear there's counselling coming up - some for you,
too? - Things can be so hard when it gets like this. Communication
becomes non-existant (read rampant emotional-minefield with cross-fire)
If anything, your understanding is what is needed . . . I so know the
feeling when all you can think of is some form of physical/psychological
punishment - but if you find yourself in that place maybe think of this
possibility - that what you are perceiving as gratuitous disobedience is
in fact a call from the child to you saying 'ouch, I'm in pain (and I
don't know how to deal with it)'
In other words, you don't have to shut your heart down too - but get some
help if you can... this is not an easy task.
Kevin
--
Be nice to me. I might be your Secret Snowflake.
Roger K. Hill
of flak for this, and, I don't know too much about
kids with PDD, but, all of this psycology aside for a sec,
in my experience, a well deserved spanking
is not the worst thing that you can do to a child.
Of course that would always be my LAST resort
after some of the above things have not worked.
I don't think that spanking means that you love
the child any less, you're are simply (instantly) communicating
that "what you are doing is NOT acceptable behaviour,
to me, this will NOT be allowed."
It always, always worked for me and my brother when
we were kids. Hell, all my dad had to do was threaten
to get out that belt, and we shaped up quicker than
quick! (All mom had to do was, threaten with dad)
Again, this may all sound really "harsh", but sometimes
let's face it, 'the old fashioned methods" prove the most
reliable.
--
Roger K. Hill
CAD Systems Manager/Civil CAD Designer
Zambrana Engineering, Inc.
2324 Marconi Ave.
St. Louis MO 63110-3116
ph: 1-314-664-1900 ext. 38
fax: 1-314-664-8775
web: www.zambrana.com
e-mail: rkh...@zambrana.com
"Every morning in Africa, a gazelle wakes up. It knows
it must run faster than the fastest lion or it will be killed.....
every morning a lion wakes up. It knows it must outrun
the slowest gazelle or it will starve to death. It doesn't
matter whether you are a lion or a gazelle.... when the
sun comes up you'd better be running."
"Remember, there are no stupid questions, Only stupid PEOPLE who ask
questions !" :-)
Kevin wrote in message ...
>In article <382DD1FE...@sk.sympatico.ca>, John Hamlin says...
>> "My name is MOM, not LORI". She said my name like it was a dirty word.
>>
>>
Melissa Torresan
<rkh...@zambrana.com> wrote:
>I know I'll probably receive alot
>of flak for this, and, I don't know too much about
>kids with PDD, but, all of this psycology aside for a sec,
>in my experience, a well deserved spanking
>is not the worst thing that you can do to a child.
Yes, you will receive flak. Let me be the first to flak. I've got a SK
who is being smacked at home by BM, and keeps getting into trouble at
school for being violent towards other children. I strongly believe
that you can find other ways to deal with all kinds of behaviour, and
all smacking teaches kids is to hit someone else to solve your
problems. Timeout, removing TV, computer and game priveleges, removing
the child's toys, making them write apology notes - there's a lot of
alternatives.
At one time, I thought spanking was great.. until I actually did it
once - it upset me more than the child, and it really removes a lot of
trust that the child has in you.
Mel
---------------------------------------------------
Melissa Torresan
sm...@crosswinds.net
---------------------------------------------------
Roger K. Hill
>On Mon, 15 Nov 1999 09:16:55 -0600, "Roger K. Hill"
><rkh...@zambrana.com> wrote:
>
>>I know I'll probably receive alot
>>of flak for this, and, I don't know too much about
>>kids with PDD, but, all of this psycology aside for a sec,
>>in my experience, a well deserved spanking
>>is not the worst thing that you can do to a child.
>
>Yes, you will receive flak. Let me be the first to flak. I've got a SK
>who is being smacked at home by BM, and keeps getting into trouble at
>school for being violent towards other children. I strongly believe
>that you can find other ways to deal with all kinds of behaviour
Melissa,
I thought the issue here was "spanking" not
"smacking" kids around. Let's not confuse
abuse with a bit of firm discipline?
Okay, let's define come up with a mutual
understanding of spanking first, How about:
"Spanking - One firm slap on a child's rear end with
by an adults hand, that does not leave a physical
mark or injury, but is used as a disciplinary tool."
>, and
>all smacking teaches kids is to hit someone else to solve your
>problems. Timeout, removing TV, computer and game priveleges, removing
>the child's toys, making them write apology notes - there's a lot of
>alternatives.
>
>At one time, I thought spanking was great.. until I actually did it
>once - it upset me more than the child
Then maybe you shouldn't do it, if it upsets you
that much. The first time I spanked my SS, I felt
much the same way that you did, and I always
give a couple of warnings, and always
always look for alternative methods first.
, and it really removes a lot of
>trust that the child has in you.
Does it ? Or does it communicate respect instantly,
and discipline a child when needed?
Discipline is for training.
Parents teaching their children things that are worthwhile:
Actions produce consequences.
Choose an action, receive the consequence.
We are all responsible for our actions.
We are all held accountable for our choices.
We must discipline ourselves.
My SS is 8 now, I cannot remember the last
time that I spanked him, After spanking I would
always tell him that I loved him, and I hope he
doesn't really do that(whatever) again.
>Mel
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------
>Melissa Torresan
>sm...@crosswinds.net
>---------------------------------------------------
Roger K. Hill
Anne Robotti
somebody to get them to do what you want to do, that words
are not the best way to work out a conflict, and that if you're
bigger than somebody else you can bully them into whatever
you want and their feelings don't matter.
Anne
Anne Robotti
Roger K. Hill wrote:
> Okay, let's define come up with a mutual
> understanding of spanking first, How about:
> "Spanking - One firm slap on a child's rear end with
> by an adults hand, that does not leave a physical
> mark or injury, but is used as a disciplinary tool."
Let's define *that* as "something that has no relationship tohow things are going to function in the
real world, that doesn't
teach the child anything from the situation that he will need
to cope in life, and that is more of an expression of an adult's
frustration than of any desire to teach the child anything." Not
to mention something you could be arrested for if you did it
to anybody other than your children.
> Does it ? Or does it communicate respect instantly,
> and discipline a child when needed?
It's not discipline, it's punishment. And a child feels alot of things when getting spanked, but
respect isn't one
of them. Humiliation, anger ...
> Discipline is for training.
>
> Parents teaching their children things that are worthwhile:
>
> Actions produce consequences.
> Choose an action, receive the consequence.
> We are all responsible for our actions.
> We are all held accountable for our choices.
> We must discipline ourselves.
What ever happened to, "Violence isn't the answer, we can talkour way out of our problems, no one
has a right to touch your body
in a way you don't want them to...?" and that's just for starters!
> My SS is 8 now, I cannot remember the last
> time that I spanked him, After spanking I would
> always tell him that I loved him, and I hope he
> doesn't really do that(whatever) again.
Yeah, my sister's abusive husband does the same thing. It's alla matter of degrees.
Anne
Roger K. Hill
--
Roger K. Hill
CAD Systems Manager/Civil CAD Designer
Zambrana Engineering, Inc.
2324 Marconi Ave.
St. Louis MO 63110-3116
ph: 1-314-664-1900 ext. 38
fax: 1-314-664-8775
web: www.zambrana.com
e-mail: rkh...@zambrana.com
"Every morning in Africa, a gazelle wakes up. It knows
it must run faster than the fastest lion or it will be killed.....
every morning a lion wakes up. It knows it must outrun
the slowest gazelle or it will starve to death. It doesn't
matter whether you are a lion or a gazelle.... when the
sun comes up you'd better be running."
"Remember, there are no stupid questions,
Only stupid PEOPLE who ask questions !" :-)
Anne Robotti wrote in message <38305893...@worldnet.att.net>...
>
>
>Roger K. Hill wrote:
>
>> Okay, let's define come up with a mutual
>> understanding of spanking first, How about:
>> "Spanking - One firm slap on a child's rear end with
>> by an adults hand, that does not leave a physical
>> mark or injury, but is used as a disciplinary tool."
>
>Let's define *that* as "something that has no relationship to
>how things are going to function in the
>real world, that doesn't
>teach the child anything from the situation that he will need
>to cope in life, and that is more of an expression of an adult's
>frustration than of any desire to teach the child anything." Not
>to mention something you could be arrested for if you did it
>to anybody other than your children.
>> Does it ? Or does it communicate respect instantly,
>> and discipline a child when needed?
>
>It's not discipline, it's punishment. And a child feels alot of things when
getting spanked, but
>respect isn't one
>of them. Humiliation, anger ...
Anne, there is a difference between punishment and discipline.
>
>> Discipline is for training.
>>
>> Parents teaching their children things that are worthwhile:
>>
>> Actions produce consequences.
>> Choose an action, receive the consequence.
>> We are all responsible for our actions.
>> We are all held accountable for our choices.
>> We must discipline ourselves.
>
>What ever happened to, "Violence isn't the answer, we can talkour way out
of our problems, no one
>has a right to touch your body
>in a way you don't want them to...?" and that's just for starters!
>
Speaking of violence, I wonder about those highschool
kids in Columbine CO who killed 13 people?
I wonder if THEIR parents ever spanked them when
they were little.......hmmmmm.
>> My SS is 8 now, I cannot remember the last
>> time that I spanked him, After spanking I would
>> always tell him that I loved him, and I hope he
>> doesn't really do that(whatever) again.
>
>Yeah, my sister's abusive husband does the same thing. It's alla matter of
degrees.
>
Again Anne, I think you're confusing "abuse" here with
"spanking" I think they are definitely 2 separate things.
>Anne
>
>
>
Kevin
The point I was making was that the kid suddenly becoming 'disruptive'
may possibly be because he was feeling torn between two
antagonistic parents/adults whom he just wants to love. As he can't deal
with their antagonism, being a child and not an adult, his response is to
become disruptive.
So: - his response is <likely> due to inadequate and inappropriate
parenting - how is spanking him going to solve the cause of the problem?
The focus goes onto the kid, rather than working out effective parenting
solutions. Spanking might make you feel better because you've
successfully hidden the symptoms... and the result that the kid doesn't
*ever* exhibit them again is not only possibly due to the 'effectiveness'
of this method, but because he's learned that his pain will not be heard
because it is too unbearable for the 'adult' in the situation.
The pain becomes buried, and sometimes never gets released.
Kevin
In article <s30nds...@corp.supernews.com>, Roger K. Hill says...
--
Sarai
right now) we just finished studying the difference between punishment,
negative reinforcement, and positive reinforcement. Im gonna quote the
def.'s here for a min:
1. Punishment: Occurs when an event following a response decreases the
tendency to make that response.
2. Negative Reinforcement: Occurs when a response is strengthened because
it is followed by the removal of an aversive (unpleasant) stimulus.
3. Positive Reinforcement: Occurs when a response is strengthened because
it is followed by the presentation of a rewarding stimulus.
Quote: The truckload of side effects associated with punishment make it less
than ideal as a disciplinary procedure. Research on operant conditioning
suggests that disciplinary goals can often be accomplished more effectively
by reinforcing desirable behavior than by punishing undesirable behavior.
(Themes & Variations 240)
Oh, and one more thing,
Finally, physical punishement, which remains common in efforts to discipline
children (Strauss & Gelles, 1986), often leads to an increase in aggressive
behavior. Children who are subjected to a lot of physical punishment tend
to become more aggressive than the average youngster (Parke & Slaby, 1983).
A spanking is punishment.
Just statin the truth,
heather m.
Anne Robotti
to "discipline" another person physically, then tell them you
love them, then imply that the fact that you hit them is *their*
fault with that little "I hope you don't do that again" speech
is a familiar pattern. You don't agree. Fine. This isn't the
spanking newsgroup, do whatever you want to your kid.
Anne
Sarai
Ok, this is the last time I promise!!! (I'll leave it to the spanking
newsgroups from here on) All I wanted to do was agree with the ones on here
who have leaned toward natural consequences, because from what I gather,
(from the book, and with my own 3 year old son) is that they tend to work
the best. Now I'm no Psychology major, (thats a fact) but this is what "I"
understood from the text. Positive Reinforcement would mean you would
reward the kid from staying out of the street, say by giving him a cookie or
something. Punishment would mean you spanked him for running into the
street, if he so chose to do so. Negative Reinforcement would mean he's
"aware" that running into the street would cause him to be hurt very badly,
and he CHOOSES to stay on the sidewalk to stay safe. Therefore, the natural
consequences of running into the street (getting hurt) are avoided, and he
is naturally reinforced (or rewarded) by staying safe.
Kinda like the post I just read a min ago by Anne, where she informed
her daughter that she should ride in the stroller so she can stay safe.
This is negative reinforcement as in the daughter not only makes her own
choice, but is rewarded with the natural consequences of staying safe,
respecting her mother, and being happy about not scaring her mom by running
away. The little girl "understood" and was informed and i think dealing
with children in that way works alot better most of the time. She'll
remember that subconsciously and will instinctively know that by CHOOSING to
do what her mother wants her to do is the right way to go.
Okay I'm finished! I think that's right, BTW, but PLEASE correct me if
I'm wrong, if there are any psychologists out there lurking feel free to
blast me out of the water!
heather m.
Jennaii
been said in previous spanking posts I'm sure...
>> I don't think that spanking means that you love
>> the child any less, you're are simply (instantly) communicating
>> that "what you are doing is NOT acceptable behaviour,
>> to me, this will NOT be allowed."
>
"This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" -- Bob Seger
Jennaii
Anne Robotti
of my "this freaks me out" things. Food, even a cookie, as a reward
I think sets up kids for problems dealing with food later in life.
Because it assumes importance outside sustenance.
Anne
Roger K. Hill
Reap What You Sow
Let's see...
I think it started when Madelyn Murray O'Hare complained that she didn't want any prayer in our schools.
And we said, O.K.
Then someone said, "You had better not read the Bible in school - the Bible that says thou shalt not kill,
thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself."
And we said, O.K.
Remember Dr. Benjamin Spock, who said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave, because
their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem?
And we said, O.K.
Then someone said that teachers and principals better not discipline our children when they misbehave.
And our administrators said, "Whoa, no one in this school better touch a student when they misbehave because
we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued."
And we said, O.K.
Then someone said, "Let's let our daughters have abortions if they want, and we won't even have to tell
their parents."
And we said, O.K.
Then someone else said, "Let's give our sons and daughters all the condoms they want, so they can have all
the "fun" they desire, and we won't have to tell their parents."
And we said, O.K.
And then some of our top officials said that it doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs.
And we said, "As long as I have a job and the economy is good, it doesn't matter to me what anyone does in private, it's nobody's business."
In short, it's O.K.
So now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong,
and why it doesn't bother them to kill. Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out.
I think it has a great deal to do with "we reap what we sow".
Whoa! What a concept!
Author Unknown
Life is like a grindstone, whether it wears you out or shines you up depends on what you are made of.
--
Roger K. Hill
CAD Systems Manager/Civil CAD Designer
2324 Marconi Ave.
St. Louis MO 63110-3116
it must run faster than the fastest lion or it will be killed.....
every morning a lion wakes up. It knows it must outrun
the slowest gazelle or it will starve to death. It doesn't
matter whether you are a lion or a gazelle.... when the
sun comes up you'd better be running."
Boatinlady
much about kids with PDD, but, all of this psycology aside for a sec, in my
experience, a well deserved spanking is not the worst thing that you can do to
a child.>>>
Roger,
I have a friend who's daughter is ODD. This little girl is 6, and at home, is
the most oppositional little girl I've ever seen. She defies her parents.
Tells them NO constantly. She stands up to them even tho she KNOWS she will
receive physical punishment for doing so. It's really sad to see!!!!
You know what??? She's acting just as she's supposed to. How she acts is
exactly right for her disorder. You say you don't know much about PDD, but
maybe your ss is reacting the ONLY way he knows how. For my friend, I went to
the internet and found SEVERAL sites on ODD and printed them for her. Her
daughter is now getting the much needed help she deserves and is doing well in
school.
What ticks me off, is that this poor girl was subjected to all kinds of
physical punishment simply because her parents had no idea that what she was
doing was exactly right for her disorder. Her parents attempted to spank her
to do things right. Her disorder tells her to defy spankings. So, her parents
would do it again, and again and again. This girl lived the first 6 years of
her life receiving all kinds of verbal punishments and physical punishments
that did no good.
Her parents are now getting help regarding HOW to parent a child with ODD.
Dicipline is exactly the opposite of what you would believe to be right. NO
physical punishments allowed, EVER!!!!!! This child FEEDS on physical
punishment.
So while I understand your frustration (believe me, I watched this girl a
couple of times and before her diagnosis, she was unbelievable), PLEASE check
deeply into PDD and understand what it's about.
That may be part of your answer!!!!!!
Pat
Anne Haas
age of the child. I do not believe in it as a punishment for every little
thing, i.e., if you don't eat your spinach, you will get a spanking. I do
believe the child should be given a choice, i.e., if you do not stop _______
(kicking the dog, running into the street, etc.), you will get a swat on the
buttocks.
2) Roger has a good point with the "You reap what you sow" essay. A large
number of children (not all, mind you) are not taught the consequences of their
actions. From my observation, the people in this NG do attempt to teach their
children (whether they be bio, step, or extended family) about consequences and
"morality". If y'all didn't care about your children, they wouldn't be here.
One problem I've seen with my SD and a lot of her friends is they have not been
taught HOW to think. I often try to ask "If you do this, what could happen?"
rather than "do it this way." Sometimes, it is "If you were the other person,
how would you feel if they said x about you?" Or if she's spouting off how she
was going to arrange for so & so to get their just desserts (even if the
offense was not against her directly), and I know she doesn't want to "think",
I'll just tell her that that is a mighty Christian attitude she has.
Okay, sorry for the rambling. :-) Just wanted to add my .05 to the
discussion.
Anne H.
(the other Anne)
Life is a glorious joke. Enjoy the laugh. ("Not one shred of evidence exists
in favor of the idea that life is serious.")
Roger K. Hill
mentioned disorders. I just started this mile
long thread somehow on the issue of child
spanking.
--
Roger K. Hill
CAD Systems Manager/Civil CAD Designer
Zambrana Engineering, Inc.
2324 Marconi Ave.
St. Louis MO 63110-3116
ph: 1-314-664-1900 ext. 38
fax: 1-314-664-8775
web: www.zambrana.com
e-mail: rkh...@zambrana.com
"Every morning in Africa, a gazelle wakes up. It knows
it must run faster than the fastest lion or it will be killed.....
every morning a lion wakes up. It knows it must outrun
the slowest gazelle or it will starve to death. It doesn't
matter whether you are a lion or a gazelle.... when the
sun comes up you'd better be running."
"Remember, there are no stupid questions, Only stupid PEOPLE who ask
questions !" :-)
Boatinlady wrote in message
<19991116115552...@ng-fo1.aol.com>...
Anne Robotti
flak, you got flak. You're not going to convince me to physically
punish my kid, you're not listening to a thing anybody has to say,
so what is the point of this thread?
Anne
Sarai
Anne Robotti wrote in message <38316377...@worldnet.att.net>...
>Heather, just one thing struck me, food as a positive reward is one
>of my "this freaks me out" things. Food, even a cookie, as a reward
>I think sets up kids for problems dealing with food later in life.
>Because it assumes importance outside sustenance.
>
>Anne
>
Anne, I agree with you I was just using a cookie as an example. It could
have been a toy or whatever else you use as a reward. What I gathered from
the text is that, negative reinforcement is like positive reinforcement, but
more effective and has less side effects then punishment. Like say for
instance, positive reinforcement would be giving your kid a huge reward just
for doing his homework, something (the homework) that should be considered
a *responsiblity* and not just something the kid wants to do to get the
reward. Negative reinforcement would be sitting the kid down and saying,
"ok look, if you don't do your homework, you will not pass the grade." That
may not work the first time, but its an example of natural consequences.
Let the kid fail if he does'nt do his work, and then he suffers the negative
reinforcement of having to repeat the grade. And then punishment would be
spanking or whatever else you use for punishment just because he did'nt do
his homework. The book says that some degree of punishment is ok, but it
really specifies and has all kinds of details and such, but I am NO expert
on this, and this is just what I gathered from the book and my professor. I
think its right in a way, because if you look at those kind of examples it
shows that, 1. Nobody is going to be there all of your kids life throughout
college to punish/or reward(such as money) you child just for passing his
classes, or paying his bills, and whatnot. Instead, the kid learns "Gee if
I don't do this homework, I'll fail, and won't graduate." Natural
consequences. ;-)
heather
Sarai
Anne Robotti wrote in message <3831AFD7...@worldnet.att.net>...
>Roger, treat your kid however you want. I don't care. You expected
>flak, you got flak. You're not going to convince me to physically
>punish my kid, you're not listening to a thing anybody has to say,
>so what is the point of this thread?
>
Ditto.
One more thing, Roger, if you paid attention to the news (like you say you
do) you will hear all of them say something to this effect, such as I have:
The truth is that violence in schools has dropped in the last 10 years, it
is just our obsession with these few trajedies, and our ADVANCED media
techniques today that make it possible to get great tv ratings by reporting
on every little violent act in highschools around the country. I have heard
that from 20/20, ABC, NBC, etc. etc. etc. Sure its trajic, and very very
sad that it happens RARELY, but tv gets awesome ratings by over-emphasizing
things and getting people like you to blow them up and start ridiculous
threads about spanking on a non-spanking newsgroup. Please let this go, ok?
nuff said,
heather
ELD
lollipop)
Negative Reinforcement: (which has a negative connotation but it not an
ineffective way to teach a lesson) takes away a negative (i.e. if you keep
getting straight A's, you won't have to do chores all summer)
Punishment: Either A) takes away a positive (i.e. bad girl, give me that
lollipop) or B) adds a negative (i.e. spanking)
With Punishment one is trying to decrease a negative behaviour (but it can
also decrease positive behaviour as an indirect result)
With Reinforcement one is trying to increase a positive behaviour (the best
way to discipline, and the most effective overall)
Hope this makes some sense. Learned all about this in my teaching classes.
Have seen it demonstrated with my own kids, too.
I would like to add a side note that it's easy to tell a kid what they're
doing wrong, but that doesn't mean that they know what you want them to do
right.
Example. A kid is standing in one spot. You want him to be somewhere
else. If you keep telling him "no" when he goes one way, every time he
moves, you're going to get nowhere fast. From one point there are a
million directions the kid could move in, and if all he hears is "no" when
he's going the wrong way then he could try 999,999 directions until he gets
it right.
On the other hand, if you tell the kid where you want him to go, there's
not much room for error, and if the directions were clearly communicated
then you have a basis for effective and fair discipline when the directions
haven't been followed.
I've found in my own experiences that kids respond much better to being
shown or told how to do something right rather than to just be told it's
wrong.
Sarai <heat...@ipa.net> wrote in article <80qlji$sgk$1...@news.ipa.net>...
:
:
: Ok, this is the last time I promise!!! (I'll leave it to the spanking
:
:
:
Sarai
I was a little confused, either way, thanks alot!
heather<---just a silly college student trying to get it right!
ELD wrote in message <01bf306b$eea9c2c0$0ad7...@pc.vaxxine.com>...
ELD
a parent at the same time this topic really interested me. Also, I have a
terrific professor who has wonderful ways of explaining and demonstrating
concepts.
Example, we played "hide the eraser". 2 students went outside while we hid
an eraser, and got the run-down on the rules for the game.
For the first girl, we could ONLY say cold when she was going the wrong
way. We couldn't say warm or hot at all! It took her a long while,
surprise surprise, to find the eraser. She also became very frustrated and
was screaming at us "Why aren't you saying warm?!?!?!?" It was hard to
watch!
The second girl, all we could say was hot or warm when she was getting
close. We couldn't say cold at all. It took her a matter of seconds to
find the eraser.
Sarai <heat...@ipa.net> wrote in article <80sd59$9m5$1...@news.ipa.net>...
: THATS what I was trying to say, and just did'nt know how to do it! Or
: >:
: >:
:
:
:
Roger K. Hill
--
Roger K. Hill
CAD Systems Manager/Civil CAD Designer
Zambrana Engineering, Inc.
2324 Marconi Ave.
St. Louis MO 63110-3116
ph: 1-314-664-1900 ext. 38
fax: 1-314-664-8775
web: www.zambrana.com
e-mail: rkh...@zambrana.com
"Every morning in Africa, a gazelle wakes up. It knows
it must run faster than the fastest lion or it will be killed.....
every morning a lion wakes up. It knows it must outrun
the slowest gazelle or it will starve to death. It doesn't
matter whether you are a lion or a gazelle.... when the
sun comes up you'd better be running."
"Remember, there are no stupid questions, Only stupid PEOPLE who ask
questions !" :-)
Anne Robotti wrote in message <3831AFD7...@worldnet.att.net>...
>Roger, treat your kid however you want. I don't care. You expected
>flak, you got flak. You're not going to convince me to physically
>punish my kid, you're not listening to a thing anybody has to say,
>so what is the point of this thread?
>
Getting a bit touchy now aren't we?
How do you know that I'm not listening to what
eveyone else has to say?
I'm entitled to my own opion here though, just like
everyone else is.
>Anne
>
>> Roger K. Hill wrote:
>>
Kallynn1
>things and getting people like you to blow them up and start ridiculous
>threads about spanking on a non-spanking newsgroup. Please let this go, ok?
>
I don't believe that this is a non-spanking newsgroup. Several parents from
this group have stated that they believe in spanking. I do believe that this
is a step-parenting newsgroup.....:o)
Kallynn
Roger K. Hill
--
Roger K. Hill
CAD Systems Manager/Civil CAD Designer
Zambrana Engineering, Inc.
2324 Marconi Ave.
St. Louis MO 63110-3116
ph: 1-314-664-1900 ext. 38
fax: 1-314-664-8775
web: www.zambrana.com
e-mail: rkh...@zambrana.com
"Every morning in Africa, a gazelle wakes up. It knows
it must run faster than the fastest lion or it will be killed.....
every morning a lion wakes up. It knows it must outrun
the slowest gazelle or it will starve to death. It doesn't
matter whether you are a lion or a gazelle.... when the
sun comes up you'd better be running."
"Remember, there are no stupid questions,
Only stupid PEOPLE who ask questions !" :-)
Sarai wrote in message <80sci3$9f7$1...@news.ipa.net>...
>
>Anne Robotti wrote in message <3831AFD7...@worldnet.att.net>...
>>Roger, treat your kid however you want. I don't care. You expected
>>flak, you got flak. You're not going to convince me to physically
>>punish my kid, you're not listening to a thing anybody has to say,
>>so what is the point of this thread?
>>
>
>Ditto.
Ahh...here comes Annes reinforcements
>
>One more thing, Roger, if you paid attention to the news (like you say you
>do) you will hear all of them say something to this effect, such as I have:
>The truth is that violence in schools has dropped in the last 10 years, it
Even if that is true, you think that the violence level amongst children in
school is acceptable now-a-days then?
>is just our obsession with these few trajedies, and our ADVANCED media
>techniques today that make it possible to get great tv ratings by reporting
>on every little violent act in highschools around the country.
I missed your meaning somewhere, you're saying that the media, because
of ratings and advanced technology is blowing stories out of proportion?
Sorry but I don't think killing 13 people (or even 1 person) should be
considered
a "little violent act"
>I have heard
>that from 20/20, ABC, NBC, etc. etc. etc. Sure its trajic, and very very
>sad that it happens RARELY,
"it happens RARELY,"
Disagree.
>but tv gets awesome ratings by over-emphasizing
>things and getting people like you to blow them up and start ridiculous
>threads about spanking on a non-spanking newsgroup. Please let this go,
ok?
I'm blowing up this?
>
>nuff said,
>
>heather
>
>
>
Kevin
> For the first girl, we could ONLY say cold when she was going the wrong
> way. We couldn't say warm or hot at all! It took her a long while,
> surprise surprise, to find the eraser. She also became very frustrated and
> was screaming at us "Why aren't you saying warm?!?!?!?" It was hard to
> watch!
>
> The second girl, all we could say was hot or warm when she was getting
> close. We couldn't say cold at all. It took her a matter of seconds to
> find the eraser.
>
>
Kevin
Boatinlady
listening to a thing anybody has to say,
>so what is the point of this thread?
>
I totally agree with Anne here. What's the purpose of this thread if you
aren't listening to anything anyone is saying.
I didn't say your ss HAD ODD. But, you yourself said that your ss had a
disorder and you knew very little about it. I suggested that maybe your ss was
acting out because of his disorder.
I never physically punished my kids. They are now 21, 19 and 17. I WAS
physically abused as a child. Do you really think I believed my dad when he
said "he loved me" after he HIT ME????????
Pat
Kevin
physical pain that comes of being hit by someone bigger than you -
someone you've been hotwired to trust.
That you (and others) have uncovered the pain is the big difference here
- Roger hasn't, and until the time (if ever) he does, he will be
absolutely right in his world. It's a tough one to crack, because the
reality of pain that is covered up inside the survivor of physical abuse
is often buried even deeper once they also became a perpetrator.
Kevin
In article <19991117103213...@ng-bd1.aol.com>, Boatinlady
says...
--
Bryn
My father and mother only spanked us when we really needed it. I only spank
my kids when they endanger thiers or someone else's life (i.e., running into
a parking lot or street, sticking things in light sockets, jumping off the
roof :) etc.). It gets the point across immediately that that behaviour is
not tolerated. I do not see my father as an abuser, nor do I see myself
that way. There are different degrees of spanking that people do, from the
moderate to the daily beatings. I do not think that it is fair to lump
someone who spanks their child maybe once a month in with a person who beats
their kids with belts on a daily basis. Don't be so quick to judge others
as "not uncovering the pain" when maybe there wasn't any there to begin
with.
--
Brynda (Mom of Jaidyn - 3, Korbin - 5mos & Kaitlin - 7 )
Kevin wrote in message ...
Dana
the girls, I try all other solutions and spanking is last resort. I do not
go spanking them everytime they do something wrong. A spat on the butt is
one thing, and abuse is another. Sometimes a swat on the butt gets their
attention when warning, time out, taking away tv or toy doesn't work. But
that is MHO.
Dana
--
"You have tried to make me look like a jackass and it stops tonight...You
are half the man I am.....and I might have half the brain that you have! But
you making me look like a jackass stops tonight! Sid Vicious (Monday
Nitro)
Bryn <n...@affiliation.net> wrote in message
news:J1CY3.259$aK1....@typhoon1.austin.rr.com...
Roger K. Hill
--
Roger K. Hill
CAD Systems Manager/Civil CAD Designer
Zambrana Engineering, Inc.
2324 Marconi Ave.
St. Louis MO 63110-3116
ph: 1-314-664-1900 ext. 38
fax: 1-314-664-8775
web: www.zambrana.com
e-mail: rkh...@zambrana.com
"Every morning in Africa, a gazelle wakes up. It knows
it must run faster than the fastest lion or it will be killed.....
every morning a lion wakes up. It knows it must outrun
the slowest gazelle or it will starve to death. It doesn't
matter whether you are a lion or a gazelle.... when the
sun comes up you'd better be running."
"Remember, there are no stupid questions, Only stupid PEOPLE who ask
questions !" :-)
Bryn wrote in message ...
Roger K. Hill
--
Roger K. Hill
CAD Systems Manager/Civil CAD Designer
Zambrana Engineering, Inc.
2324 Marconi Ave.
St. Louis MO 63110-3116
ph: 1-314-664-1900 ext. 38
fax: 1-314-664-8775
web: www.zambrana.com
e-mail: rkh...@zambrana.com
"Every morning in Africa, a gazelle wakes up. It knows
it must run faster than the fastest lion or it will be killed.....
every morning a lion wakes up. It knows it must outrun
the slowest gazelle or it will starve to death. It doesn't
matter whether you are a lion or a gazelle.... when the
sun comes up you'd better be running."
"Remember, there are no stupid questions,
Only stupid PEOPLE who ask questions !" :-)
Boatinlady wrote in message
<19991117103213...@ng-bd1.aol.com>...
>>You're not going to convince me to physically punish my kid, you're not
>listening to a thing anybody has to say,
>>so what is the point of this thread?
>>
>Roger,
>
>I totally agree with Anne here. What's the purpose of this thread if you
>aren't listening to anything anyone is saying.
>
So, just because I don't agree with you, you think that
I'm not listening and that my views are invalid?
>I didn't say your ss HAD ODD. But, you yourself said that your ss had a
>disorder and you knew very little about it. I suggested that maybe your ss
was
NO, NO, NO, I never said that my SS had a "disorder", if I implied that
somewhere
in a previous post, then let me set the record straight.
NO, my SS has NO disorders.
>acting out because of his disorder.
>
>I never physically punished my kids. They are now 21, 19 and 17. I WAS
>physically abused as a child. Do you really think I believed my dad when
he
>said "he loved me" after he HIT ME????????
>
>Pat
Sorry about your dad "abusing" you, that's terrible, my dad
loved me and my brother very much, but was also very firm.
I never loved him any less for spanking me, He was a great man.
He took us fishin', always spent time with us, and money on
us that he didn't really have.
NOT every parent who spanks their kid is a child abuser, it seems like
you are "lumping" me into that group. Thanks alot.
Sarai
>
>Perhaps physical violence communicates the unacceptability of
>behavior. I have my doubts. That's never what it communicated
>to me. The messages I received were along the lines of:
>My parents aren't to be trusted.
>Hitting comes from out of the blue.
>Life sucks.
>
Maybe I just needed a good laugh or something, but this had me rolling on
the floor!!!! I kept picturing myself as a little kid, just been spanked
(hard, too) thinking this exact same thing, LOL.
Life sucks,
heather m.
>I hope that other children don't associate the violence with
>their own actions. Having dealt with domestic abuse for years,
>I agree with Anne that it involves the same dynamic. One
>larger, more violent person controls the actions of others
>through intimidation and pain. Although we largely ignore abuse
>of the elderly in this country, it's the flip side of the coin.
>I think that before we dominate our children through physical
>force, we'd do well to keep in mind that the day will come when
>they can control us with physical force, too.
>
>Getting away from the point, I've always felt pretty much the
>same way about toilet training. Chances are good that your
>kid's bedwetting is not the last incontinence you'll have to
>deal with in your life. Kindness can be an investment.
>
>jane
Kevin
things like 'It never hurt me' and 'it only happened when I really needed
it'
You may be quite right in that there is no hidden pain for yourself and
others, ...it's just that I recognise the type of justifications and
reflection of inner belief all too well - I also believed in my heart of
hearts that no harm had been done to me...
Then one day it all changed. It was just simply no longer true.
You mention in your post that spanking is OK in the face of life-
threatening or dangerous actions. This is quite different from the
original thread, which was about a 5 yr old boy who had started to
exhibit a disturbing change of behaviour toward his whole family. It
seemed that the change stemmed from an increased amount of time with his
BM.
What I guessed in the situation was that the boy was under some form of
strain, and that he was unable to deal effectively with it - nor should
he have to; adult emotions can be huge and terrifying, and completely
inexplicable to each other, let alone a young kid. There is no way that a
five year old can be expected to deal maturely with the fact that BM (who
he loves) hates SM (who he also loves).
The result is a 5 yr old trying to express very painful things way beyond
his years.
Now the manifestation of this is in his being p!ssed off to a high
degree. The adults in his world are not acting in a way that leaves him
feeling safe. So he starts acting it out.
Do you blame him? I don't.
Next, the suggestion came that perhaps he needed spanking, from someone
who professed 'spanking never harmed me'. Well, sure, that might be an
effective way of removing the symptoms of the problem from obvious view,
but the fact is that it does nothing to change the causes of the problem
- the adults still have the same issues, which they can now ignore, the
child still feels unsafe - or *numb*.
In this situation the 5 yr old is reflecting to the adults in his life
that they have parenting issues to deal with. He is in effect saying:
"When BM speaks to me about SM in this way I feel pain, and I feel
unsafe". To spank him or her for it is straight abuse - physical and
emotional.
The hidden (buried) messages are not easy to bear:
"It is OK for someone bigger and stronger than me to impose their will on
me by force"
"My feelings will never be heard/are not real/are not worthy. I will stop
feeling"
(how many men do you know that fit this description?)
"My body hurts me/the world hurts me"
(Instead of "mommy hurt me/daddy hurt me" - children will protect an
image of an abusive parent to death)
"I am only good because I am spanked or threatened with spanking.
Therefore I must be bad/defective at the core."
The list goes on.
As for spanking for the purpose of illustrating a danger - well my own
opinion is that it is not ideal if you have to resort to physical impact
to make your point clear. I think it's another parenting issue.
Kevin
In article <J1CY3.259$aK1....@typhoon1.austin.rr.com>, Bryn says...
> I was spanked as a child, and have never had psychophysical pain from it.
> My father and mother only spanked us when we really needed it. I only spank
> my kids when they endanger thiers or someone else's life (i.e., running into
> a parking lot or street, sticking things in light sockets, jumping off the
> roof :) etc.). It gets the point across immediately that that behaviour is
> not tolerated. I do not see my father as an abuser, nor do I see myself
> that way. There are different degrees of spanking that people do, from the
> moderate to the daily beatings. I do not think that it is fair to lump
> someone who spanks their child maybe once a month in with a person who beats
> their kids with belts on a daily basis. Don't be so quick to judge others
> as "not uncovering the pain" when maybe there wasn't any there to begin
> with.
>
> --
> Brynda (Mom of Jaidyn - 3, Korbin - 5mos & Kaitlin - 7 )
>
> Kevin wrote in message ...
> >The thing is Pat, you, like me, have become conscious of the psycho-
> >physical pain that comes of being hit by someone bigger than you -
> >someone you've been hotwired to trust.
> >
> >That you (and others) have uncovered the pain is the big difference here
> >- Roger hasn't, and until the time (if ever) he does, he will be
> >absolutely right in his world. It's a tough one to crack, because the
> >reality of pain that is covered up inside the survivor of physical abuse
> >is often buried even deeper once they also became a perpetrator.
> >
> >Kevin
> >
> >In article <19991117103213...@ng-bd1.aol.com>, Boatinlady
> >says...
> >> >You're not going to convince me to physically punish my kid, you're not
> >> listening to a thing anybody has to say,
> >> >so what is the point of this thread?
> >> >
> >> Roger,
> >>
> >> I totally agree with Anne here. What's the purpose of this thread if you
> >> aren't listening to anything anyone is saying.
> >>
> >> I didn't say your ss HAD ODD. But, you yourself said that your ss had a
> >> disorder and you knew very little about it. I suggested that maybe your
> ss was
> >> acting out because of his disorder.
> >>
> >> I never physically punished my kids. They are now 21, 19 and 17. I WAS
> >> physically abused as a child. Do you really think I believed my dad when
> he
> >> said "he loved me" after he HIT ME????????
> >>
> >> Pat
> >>
> >>
> >
jane lawrence
>
> I was spanked as a child, and have never had psychophysical pain from it.
> My father and mother only spanked us when we really needed it. I only spank
> my kids when they endanger thiers or someone else's life (i.e., running into
> a parking lot or street, sticking things in light sockets, jumping off the
> roof :) etc.). It gets the point across immediately that that behaviour is
> not tolerated. I do not see my father as an abuser, nor do I see myself
> that way. There are different degrees of spanking that people do, from the
> moderate to the daily beatings. I do not think that it is fair to lump
> someone who spanks their child maybe once a month in with a person who beats
> their kids with belts on a daily basis. Don't be so quick to judge others
> as "not uncovering the pain" when maybe there wasn't any there to begin
> with.
Okay, I'm not dragging in the old Churchill joke, but it's just
a matter of degree.
Perhaps physical violence communicates the unacceptability of
behavior. I have my doubts. That's never what it communicated
to me. The messages I received were along the lines of:
My parents aren't to be trusted.
Hitting comes from out of the blue.
Life sucks.
I hope that other children don't associate the violence with
Deborah
i don't think the OP was talking about physically abusing his kids. I
think he was talking about spanking an unruly child. I realize
several in this newsgroup were abused children and I can not begin to
fathom how terrible that must be, and I will not even pretend that I
understand it.
I guess I have the unpopular opinion. I believe in a parents right to
spank their child. I have never been of the opinion that spanking
allows a person to beat the crap out of their kid but I do believe in
my right as parent to my children to administer discipline as I see
fit.
I have never been a very strict parent I guess. My children are well
behaved, respectful and very secure in the knowledge that their mom is
crazy about them. I have however, spanked my children. I have
spanked my 11 year old daughter 2 times in her life. I did not spank
her out of anger. I spanked her to discipline her. I took it very
seriously and will never forget how I felt having spanked her. I
hated it. Having said that, I haven't spanked my kids in a very long
time, but I will defend my right to spank them.
I still remember my dad chasing me around the dining room table trying
to catch me to spank me. I remember that spanking. I was supposed to
be practicing the piano and Mom caught me watching the Brady Bunch.
She told me to practice and I decided not to. I called her an old
bag. When my dad came home, wow! Do you know what message was sent
to me with that spanking? Respect your mother! I remember the pained
look on my dads face when he spanked me. He didn't beat me. He gave
a lippy 10 year old a swat for acting like a brat. I had it coming.
We laughed about it years later. They talked about dad huffing and
puffing trying to catch me. I still smile when I think of him
stubbing out his sportsman cigarette and trying to regain his wind so
he could catch me LOL.
Anyhow, I guess I just wanted to say, not all spankings leave terrible
emotional baggage. I realize alot of you are suffering, but i was a
child whose parents spanked and call it corny.. its a memory that
still makes me smile.
Deb
jane lawrence
>
>
> I guess I have the unpopular opinion. I believe in a parents right to
> spank their child. I have never been of the opinion that spanking
> allows a person to beat the crap out of their kid but I do believe in
> my right as parent to my children to administer discipline as I see
> fit.
Right. But people who do beat the crap out of their kids would
say the same thing. That's the discipline they see fit to
administer. So while we're telling them that they can't
administer that physical abuse, I see no problem with telling
people they can't hit kids at all. It's a crime if you hit any
one else. It seems so wrong to me to legalize hitting only of
the weakest and most vulnerable of our society.
jane
Jennaii
>I WAS
>physically abused as a child. Do you really think I believed my dad when he
>said "he loved me" after he HIT ME????????
>
Roger K. Hill
--
Roger K. Hill
CAD Systems Manager/Civil CAD Designer
Zambrana Engineering, Inc.
2324 Marconi Ave.
St. Louis MO 63110-3116
ph: 1-314-664-1900 ext. 38
fax: 1-314-664-8775
web: www.zambrana.com
e-mail: rkh...@zambrana.com
jane lawrence wrote in message <38341ABF...@excite.com>...
>Deborah wrote:
>>
>>
>> I guess I have the unpopular opinion. I believe in a parents right to
>> spank their child. I have never been of the opinion that spanking
>> allows a person to beat the crap out of their kid but I do believe in
>> my right as parent to my children to administer discipline as I see
>> fit.
>
>Right. But people who do beat the crap out of their kids would
>say the same thing. That's the discipline they see fit to
>administer.
You just won't let it go will you ?
There IS a difference, A BIG BIG difference between
the people who abuse kids on a constant basis, and
the loving parent who resorts to spanking only as THE
last alternative.
>So while we're telling them that they can't
>administer that physical abuse, I see no problem with telling
>people they can't hit kids at all.
A law banning spankings, what a great idea,
what next, banning any kind of punishment for
kids at all. No standing kids in the corner, no
time-outs, why don't we just send off our kids
to a government run boarding school and let
the government tell us how to raise our children?
Vicki Robinson
:
:A law banning spankings, what a great idea,
:what next, banning any kind of punishment for
:kids at all. No standing kids in the corner, no
:time-outs, why don't we just send off our kids
:to a government run boarding school and let
:the government tell us how to raise our children?
It was, at one time, legal for parents to kill their wayward children.
I'm sure that there were folks decrying legislation making this
illegal at the time it was passed.
Vicki
--
Does it make any sense to say that I decompensate between
paradigms? Probably not. -Jane Lawrence
jane lawrence
>
> jane lawrence wrote in message <38341ABF...@excite.com>...
> >
> >But people who do beat the crap out of their kids would
> >say the same thing. That's the discipline they see fit to
> >administer.
>
> You just won't let it go will you ?
> There IS a difference, A BIG BIG difference between
> the people who abuse kids on a constant basis, and
> the loving parent who resorts to spanking only as THE
> last alternative.
I understand that that is your perspective. I see a difference
of degree of physical violence.
>
> >So while we're telling them that they can't
> >administer that physical abuse, I see no problem with telling
> >people they can't hit kids at all.
>
> A law banning spankings, what a great idea,
> what next, banning any kind of punishment for
> kids at all. No standing kids in the corner, no
> time-outs, why don't we just send off our kids
> to a government run boarding school and let
> the government tell us how to raise our children?
>
I don't see the logic of your progression. Laws exist against
non-consensual touching. Children are carved out as an
exception. Laws do not exist against time outs and standing in
a corner.
Or is your argument that time outs, etc. are actually a form of
false imprisonment? It's an interesting theory. I would have
to counter that children legally are in the custody of another
and that their freedom of movement and action is limited for
their safety and to protect the rights of others. Still, I do
see that confining children can violate their rights. I see
news stories about parents being prosecuted for locking children
in the home or in their rooms. I will follow you so far as to
say that time outs, standing in corners, sending children to
their rooms, and other physical restraint of children in order
to punish, not as a tool to allow the children to get a grip on
their emotions and to think things through, is akin to
handcuffing children in their room. Again, we are discussing a
matter of degree.
I can't follow you to the boarding school, though. That seems
to be a leap in the opposite direction, toward greater coercion
of children and limitation of their rights as individuals.
Boatinlady
"lumping" me into that group. Thanks alot.
>
Roger,
If I've given you the impression that I think YOU are an abuser, I apologize
for that.
I do believe that there is a very fine line between dicipline and abuse. Many
years after I moved out of my parents home and had kids of my own, I asked my
mom one day why she never attempted to stop my dad when he was abusing either
my brother or myself. My mom answered by saying that my dad punished us in the
way HE was punished by HIS parents. Of course, THAT made it right.
I didn't raise my kids by physically punishing them because most times I WANTED
to punish them, I was angry. That, IMHO, is NOT the time to spank a child.
JMHO!!
Pat
Kallynn1
>see that confining children can violate their rights.
Got a little story here. I *once* was locked in a room at the babysitters
house for several hours, it seemed like a month, I was 5 years old and I
remember the day very very well.......I remember what the room looked like,
what the sheets smelled like, and fortunately after telling my mother that was
the last time I went there to be babysat. What a sick memory. I still
remember the shit heads name who locked me in there and boy would I like to run
into her now just to tell her what a sick thing she did.(it wasn't a punishment
or anything, I guess they just didn't want to be bothered with me)......As for
my parenting style, it doesn't matter I guess one way or the other because
there are pro's and con's to both spanking and non spanking.....My parenting
style is all mine, and it seems to be working great for me and Dh and all five
of my children.
Kallynn
Merrie
just work for you, DH and the kids. If you or the kids plan on interacting
with the rest of society, then to a large degree, your parenting style has
to work for the rest of society.
Kallynn1 <kall...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991118135802...@ng-fz1.aol.com...
Kevin
> You just won't let it go will you ?
> There IS a difference, A BIG BIG difference between
> the people who abuse kids on a constant basis, and
> the loving parent who resorts to spanking only as THE
> last alternative.
>
FWIW, I once read in a book somewhere that was referring to sexual abuse
- it said "if an adult puts his (or her) hand down a child's pants
*once*, the world is never the same."
The point being that as soon as it has happened once, the child *knows*
it is never safe - quite frankly, the same applies to spanking and other
forms of physical abuse.
As to 'loving parent' - I know the intentions are there, but the
message to the kid is so painful. 'that which loves you hurts you'.
Sure, there is a BIG BIG difference - in your perceptions.
I will however admit that there is a BIG BIG difference between spanking,
just once, and not spanking at all.
Kevin
--
"If you never change your mind, why have one?"
Kallynn1
>just work for you, DH and the kids. If you or the kids plan on interacting
>with the rest of society, then to a large degree, your parenting style has
>to work for the rest of society.
My kids are very social, cheerleading, football, basketball, social clubs, tons
of friends..etc....As for my style it comes from a multitude of different
places and by my saying that it works for me was basically saying that I have
well adjusted, smart, socially active children....they do not strike others,
they do not fight with other children physically, they do not embarrass me in
public, they are respectful of others, they do very well in school (with the
youngest doing to the best of his capabilities) and I am quite pleased with the
results of our parenting so far. I am very proud of my children....and my
parenting....
Kallynn
Cindy Martin
tons
>of friends..etc....As for my style it comes from a multitude of different
>places and by my saying that it works for me was basically saying that I
have
>well adjusted, smart, socially active children....they do not strike
others,
>they do not fight with other children physically, they do not embarrass me
in
>public, they are respectful of others, they do very well in school (with
the
>youngest doing to the best of his capabilities) and I am quite pleased with
the
>results of our parenting so far. I am very proud of my children....and my
>parenting....
>
>Kallynn
Kallyn:
Can I please, please, please send you my SS?
Kallynn1
>Can I please, please, please send you my SS?
Cindy, no way, I have heard your stories...;o) hehehehehe besides all my
bedrooms are full......haha
Kallynn
Vicki Robinson
:
:She's the master manipulator - I still crave her praise and sunshine.
:I called her tonight just 'cause I really needed to hear her tell me
:I'm smart and pretty. (It's been a bad week)
Do you see that as manipulation, though? If she was just talking and
was not interested in making real efforts to see your point of view,
I'd call it manipulation, but it seems to me that she was really
trying to get you to see what you did and to try to justify it if you
could. If you could, then she'd respect that, even if she didn't
agree with it. That's not really manipulation, it's teaching you to
take responsibility and to think before acting.
I do the same thing with my kids. My parents did the same with me,
and it kept me on the straight and narrow; they trusted me, and the
thought of doing something that I knew would cause them to be
disappointed was *awful*. And now, as an adult, I've internalized
those values as my own, so the thought of doing something that would
disappoint me in myself is awful.
Roger K. Hill
Melissa J. Ryan wrote in message
<19991118142256...@ng-ck1.aol.com>...
>I'm sorry but I havve to throw in my opinion here. Before I start I should
>warn you that I was spanked as a child and later abused by my father. My
>opinions are probably biased by that.
>
>When you spank a child you are teaching them that violence is the way to
handle
>disagreements. Spanking a child teaches kids that the way to solve a
conflict
>is with violence. Spanking is saying "Might is Right" loud and clear.
>
>My parents both spanked my brother and I when we were kids. She saw the
result
>too. We never understood why if mom and Dad could hit us when they did not
>like our behavior why we couldn't do the same when we were mad at one
another.
>When I was seven my mother stopped spanking us after she broke a paddle on
me
>and we both cried for an hour.
Jesus! What did you do??? My dad always used a belt, it NEVER broke (I don't
think.)
>When she looks back on it spanking is the one
>regret she has as a parent.
>
>Spanking is an expression of violence and anger. I'm sorry but I don't
feel
>that you have the right to punish a child with anything violent, and while
I
>understand anger I think people who take their anger out on their children
>really need to reevaluate their methods of punishment.
>
>
>Love,
>Melissa
>ICQ# 30417882
>
>It's not talk of God or the decade ahead that allows you to get through the
>worst.
>It's "I do" and "you do" and "nobody said that" and "Who brought the
subject up
>first?"
>-Stephen Sondheim
>
nicky
to comment. Personally, I find it a continuing minefield, trying to
distinguish between harmful punishment and allowing children to feel the
consequences of their actions in a positive way that will help them to learn
about living with themselves and society. However.......
Kallynn1 wrote in message <19991118135802...@ng-fz1.aol.com>...
>> Still, I do
>>see that confining children can violate their rights.
>
>Got a little story here. I *once* was locked in a room at the babysitters
>house for several hours, it seemed like a month, I was 5 years old
Anyone read 'Dibs in search of self'? Gives a whole new perspective on how
a child perceives being locked up. And a lot of things which don't fall
under the simple definition of physical abuse. It's a real eye-opener of a
book for anyone who deals with children. Just for instance - you know how
easily the word 'stupid' slips out when something daft has been done? After
reading this book I've had a few really interesting conversations with our
eldest about how he feels when he's called stupid - and how that affects his
behaviour.
On the whole spanking/non-speanking issue. Our kids are adopted - or
rather, they are *nearly* adopted. The final court thing is stil pending so
we still live our lives under the social services microscope. One of the
consequnces of that is that we are legally not allowed to spank/smack. If
we do, we lose our kids. It's that simple. That's a great incentive for
working out other ways of getting the message across. It can be done. It
takes a lot longer, it takes much more patience and creativity - but at
least when an unacceptable behaviour slowly changes in a more acceptable
direction, you as the parent have the satisfaction of knowing the child is
chosing to do it that way. He isn't burying his own emotions and motives
out of fear. It also teaches me a *lot* about the situations in which I
would dearly dearly like to be free of that restriction. There have been
times I have been mad beyond coherence - and when I've afterwards been very
glad that the restriction stopped me doing something that may have
permanently hindered the development of a proper relationship between myself
and my sons.
That said, I've also come across situtations where every reasonable
alternative (and most of the unreasonable alternatives) to physical
punishment consistently fail to make any difference to the behaviour. Where
the behaviour is damaging to the child in the long term, and sometimes even
in the short term (not to mention what it does to my sanity!). I don't
claim to have any easy answers in this department. If anyone has - I'd love
to hear them.........
One interesting point I did come across in a book called 'Raising Boys'.
The author comes down, on balance, against physical punishement - but he
makes the point that the most important thing about discipline (particularly
for boys, apparently) is that the child should perceive the adult to be
acting fairly and justly. That strictness must be balanced with genuine
love and respect for the child as a person, with his own rights and
opinions.
On the basis of all this, and going back to the original post which started
this thread. I agree with Kevin and others on one thing - the 5-year-old in
question does NOT need a good smack. He is probably acting out of
insecurity and any disciplinary act which deals with the behaviour without
looking at what is driving it will eventually be counter-producitve. IMHO,
that is.
Nicky
floridanewbie
>
>Anne Robotti wrote in message <38316377...@worldnet.att.net>...
>>Heather, just one thing struck me, food as a positive reward is one
>>of my "this freaks me out" things. Food, even a cookie, as a reward
>>I think sets up kids for problems dealing with food later in life.
>>Because it assumes importance outside sustenance.
>>
>>Anne
>>
>
>Anne, I agree with you I was just using a cookie as an example. It could
>have been a toy or whatever else you use as a reward.
<snip>
In my opinion the very best reward is one-on-one time with the parent
honestly discussing the child's feelings and allowing the child
him/herself to come to the "right" conclusions about appropriate
behavior(s), including the reasons behind why that would be the best
course of action. I guess it depends if you would like to nurture a
child who can think for her/himself as new situations present
themselves and you are not around to beat or bribe them.
Are any of you guys familiar with this book: "The Heart of Parenting:
Raising an Emotionally Intelligent Child" by John Gottman and Joan
DeClaire ... if not, I strongly recommend it (and its principles work
in adult relationships too :-)
Floridanewbie
floridanewbie
>I'm just a silly college student trying to get it right too :) But, being
>a parent at the same time this topic really interested me. Also, I have a
>terrific professor who has wonderful ways of explaining and demonstrating
>concepts.
>
>Example, we played "hide the eraser". 2 students went outside while we hid
>an eraser, and got the run-down on the rules for the game.
>
>For the first girl, we could ONLY say cold when she was going the wrong
>way. We couldn't say warm or hot at all! It took her a long while,
>surprise surprise, to find the eraser. She also became very frustrated and
>was screaming at us "Why aren't you saying warm?!?!?!?" It was hard to
>watch!
>
>The second girl, all we could say was hot or warm when she was getting
>close. We couldn't say cold at all. It took her a matter of seconds to
>find the eraser.
Yep, this demonstrates the value of positive reinforcement and it will
work with infants or whales too. Try to get a 5000 to 10,000 pound
whale to do what you want by spanking it <grin> An interesting
little book by Karen Pryor titled "Don't Shoot The Dog" discusses how
to use animal training techniques on humans :-) ... you do not need
whips and chains to get the behaviors you would like to see; usually
those brute force techniques produce perverse or unexpected results.
Floridanewbie
jane lawrence
>
>
> Are any of you guys familiar with this book: "The Heart of Parenting:
> Raising an Emotionally Intelligent Child" by John Gottman and Joan
> DeClaire ... if not, I strongly recommend it (and its principles work
> in adult relationships too :-)
>
jane
floridanewbie
wrote:
Uh, Oh ... I wish a had a copy in front of me.
John Gottman has several books worth reading; he is a psychology
professor at Univ of Washington and does interesting laboratory
research into his fields of study, with long-term follow up rather
than just theorizing or writing for the popular press... yet several
of his books have become best sellers.
In the book mentioned above, the emphasis is on teaching children to
understand and handle their emotional world. You do this by
validating their feelings of anger, frustration, sadness, fear, etc
instead of denying the kids the right to feel that way or brushing off
their concerns as too trivial to be worth your time. The approach
takes time and is not easy for the parents but kids raised this way
are more able to self-soothe by understanding their emotions and
controlling their behaviors on their own instead of becoming
disciplinary problems, drug or food abusers, depressives, etc.
Many of us, often unintentionally, have a tendency to dismiss
children's emotions ... I am guilty of this but I am trying to break
that habit.
I just checked the amazon site to see if there are better descriptions
of the book and, of course, there are:
Doing the search under the DeClaire name turns up the version still in
print (softback) .. the Gottman name turns up the same book but claims
it is out of print (only true for the hardback).
Floridanewbie
Kevin
the ways in which emotional abuse occurs - this generally accepted
behaviour of dismissing or diminishing a child's emotions being a prime
example. So often the result when the kid grows up is an adult who goes
about thinking "my feelings are not valid/worthy/real" - or even more
basically "I am not really here"
No bruises, just a lot of unhappy people, who lacking the awareness of
their own legacy will repeat the pattern on their own kids.
Kevin
In article <38377883...@news.mindspring.com>, floridanewbie says...
--
jane lawrence
> An interesting
> little book by Karen Pryor titled "Don't Shoot The Dog" discusses how
> to use animal training techniques on humans :-)
What was that movie with Sandra Dee and Bobby Darren?
jane
Stravoula
spank my child unless his life or another's was endanged. And so far, that
has worked out pretty well. I have spanked him a few times, but only when
he did something that was way out of the spectrum. And the times that I did
discipline him that way, I told him to go to his room while I cooled off. I
then calmly and methodically went into his room with a belt, told him WHY I
was disciplining him this way; asked him to bend over the side of his bed
and administered four good wacks. I haven't had to do that in several
years.
Boatinlady <boati...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991118131659...@ng-fp1.aol.com...
Linda Neal
> >
> > What was that movie with Sandra Dee and Bobby Darren?
> >
> > jane
Bobby Darin. James Darren (Moondoggie).
>
> If a Man Answers. I *love* that movie!
>
>
> karla
floridanewbie
wrote:
>floridanewbie wrote:
>
>> An interesting
>> little book by Karen Pryor titled "Don't Shoot The Dog" discusses how
>> to use animal training techniques on humans :-)
>
>What was that movie with Sandra Dee and Bobby Darren?
>
>jane
I doubt they made a movie out of the book to which I referred but
since I go to so few movies, I could be wrong.
Floridanewbie