What does being transsexual feel like?
aurora
transsexual, I am a 21 y/o biological female.
It is hard for me to relate to an intense need to change physical sex to
match internal gender. Even though I relate primarily to being female, and
have no problem being female socially, I would say my gender-expression and
identity is less feminine polarized than other women. Identifying as female
always made me uncomfortable for some reason. It's hard to explain... even
though I know I am a woman I don't feel completely like a woman.
However, even though I don't feel like a woman, I don't feel like a man
*either* and never really desired to have a sex change. I would say even
though I don't feel totally like a woman, I feel even less like a man. How
confusing is that, lol. There were times where I thought my life would be
easier if I were a man... the male social role allows for much less emphasis
on gender expression. It is more acceptable for a man to be "no sexed" than
it is for a woman. If a man doesn't want to fit into the macho-tough-guy
male polarized social role, he doesn't have to... he can instead be a brain,
a geek, and be quite socially successful. Women don't have this option...
unless they exhibit gender-polarized behavior they are considered
worthless/beneath consideration. The female social role demands that women
behave femininely. If women do not want to be feminine, then they must be
masculine (masculine female expression is way more accepted than feminine
male expression, but it is still less desirable than feminine female
expression). However, if they wan't to be neither it is much less acceptable
than it is for men to be "nongendered". Men have the social option of being
valued for ideas and contributions unrelated to gender identity expression,
our society does not view women in the same way.
I imagine you all must feel the opposite way. Even though the male social
role allows for a greater deemphisizing of gender-expression (non-sex
behavior), the gender expression males *are* permitted to engage in is
HEAVILY masculine-polarized. So, if you are a male who feels feminine, I
imagine that must be very, very difficult.
Anyway, other than for this social advantage men have, I can't say that I
desire to be male.
So I have an "unconventional" gender identitification as well, but I never
have and do not feel a need to change my physical sex in response.
Furthermore, I think if I were born a man, I would feel exactly as I do
now - satisfied in my physical sex with no desire to change that, but with a
gender-identity that was not totally man nor totally woman. I don't know
what you would call my feelings... transgendered maybe?
Anyway, I hope you don't mind my intrusion into your group, but I was hoping
you could help me understand what being TS feels like and is all about by
answering a few questions I have. I do have a motivation for asking these
questions other than neutral aquisition of knowledge; I was wondering if by
you all relating your experiences to me I could better sort out what it is
exactly that I'm feeling. Sometimes I've wondered if the way I feel is
"real", or if I am just TS and deeply in denial. Your answers and
experiences will help me understand what I am better.
1) Is being TS an issue of not being able to internally relate to the social
role of your biological sex? The kind of situation where what you are
*expected* to be doesn't fit what you *want* to be? You know, in childhood
you're expected to want to play football and war and competitive games, but
you actually wanted to play pretend & dolls with girls, that sort of thing?
If it were possible and acceptable for you to live as women totally, but
without changing your bodies, would you find this equally acceptable?
2) Did you always know you were TS? I mean there had to have been a point
where you didn't know the name for it, but did you always know that you were
a girl? (or a man for ftm)
3) Was there ever a point where you doubted your feelings? Did you ever
think perhaps you could live happily in a biologically male body, if you
made lifestyle adjustments to allow for adequate expression of your need to
live out a female social role? Or did you always want the physical change,
never doubting it?
4) A lot of TS ladies say that TS is caused when the brain-sex is
incongruent with physical sex. I was wondering if science has yet "proven"
that some people can be born with a brain that is completely incongruent
with physical sex?
5) About gender identity and sexuality... are you sexually attracted to the
opposite sex of your physical sex, the opposite sex of your "brain sex", or
both?
(Personally I've always felt I was bisexual, but I am not totally sure about
this either. However as long as I can remember I've been attracted to men
and women, but then there were times where I felt I was attracted to neither
men or women and I believed I was only out of social pressure. Your answers
might provide illumination of the validity of my own feelings)
6) Finally, the most important question. Do you think it is possible for you
to ever live happily in your biological sexed bodies? Or does it cause you
so much pain that you honestly cannot see it feasable? Please answer this
question as honestly as possible... I know that the expected answer is "no",
but do you really believe that?
That's all I can think of now... thank you in advance for your replies :)
Silence Dogood
The post from Laura answered most of your questions - and very well too.
The fine line between transgendered (small usage) and transsexual can be
summed up on one phrase "I want the operation". Those who want the
operation even if prevented by financial or medical reason could be said to
be transsexual; those who do not are trangendered.
Not really a lot to get uptight about, but many here do anyway.
Transsexuals like to day they have the brain of a woman. That is most
definitely not proven and is more a myth than reality, although there is a
small bit of growing evidence. Not only that, but most feminists would
violently object to any such claim. What can be found, can also be
prevented.
It you have been lurking here for any time you will find that some consider
themselves "pure" or "true" - all of which is so much nonsense. It seems to
be a way for some to boost their egos, without regard for any proof.
Elaine's reply to you is not so much as a reply, but just a barb thrown at
Laura. too bad - as she missed the content and simply targets the
personality. That happens a lot here, as you have seen. Unhappily, it
means that some good advise goes by the wayside, buried in an avalanche of
hatred.
Not all of us are twisted by hate. In time, you will be able to sort of the
writers.
And none of the writers know what is best for you. that is something you
have to decide on your own. Another group, less driven by animosity, might
do you some good...
Hugs,
Willow
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.656 / Virus Database: 421 - Release Date: 09/04/2004
Wight
"aurora" <auro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fIupc.8632$MH.31...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
There were times where I thought my life would be
> easier if I were a man... the male social role allows for much less
emphasis
> on gender expression. It is more acceptable for a man to be "no sexed"
than
> it is for a woman. If a man doesn't want to fit into the macho-tough-guy
> male polarized social role, he doesn't have to... he can instead be a
brain,
> a geek, and be quite socially successful. Women don't have this option...
> unless they exhibit gender-polarized behavior they are considered
> worthless/beneath consideration. The female social role demands that women
> behave femininely. If women do not want to be feminine, then they must be
> masculine (masculine female expression is way more accepted than feminine
> male expression, but it is still less desirable than feminine female
> expression). However, if they wan't to be neither it is much less
acceptable
> than it is for men to be "nongendered". Men have the social option of
being
> valued for ideas and contributions unrelated to gender identity
expression,
> our society does not view women in the same way.
Grass is always greener on the other side hun...
The man identity can be extremely limited; indeed, I'd hold it to be more
limited. The feminist movement has gone to great lengths to validate
feminine identities of all kinds, masculine identities never got that.
We're beginning to see an emergence of a wider sense of manhood with the
concept of 'new men' and such like, but on the whole its still quite
restrictive.
I suspect this is why there are less female crossdressers and FtM
transsexuals than the reverse.
> I imagine you all must feel the opposite way. Even though the male social
> role allows for a greater deemphisizing of gender-expression (non-sex
> behavior), the gender expression males *are* permitted to engage in is
> HEAVILY masculine-polarized. So, if you are a male who feels feminine, I
> imagine that must be very, very difficult.
Indeed, when looking at my friends (and this might be a generational thing,
I don't know how old you are) I find the men all come to particular
identities, where the girls express such a wide variety of identities it's
amazing. My female friends dress how they want, talk how they want, have
whatever occupation they want, and have whatever attitudes and beliefs they
want, no problem, their still woman and no one questions tier femininity.
Men? Men have a lot more rules, manhood is easily broken.
Some things might be the same, right down to the way you walk can influence
people's perceptions of your manhood, but larger issues like occupation can
be very hard for men. There are some work places woman still aren't allowed
in without questions being raised to their femininity, mostly physically
laborious jobs like builders et cetra, men on the other hand still suffer
stigma for care work like nursing, and domestic work roles.
> So I have an "unconventional" gender identitification as well, but I never
> have and do not feel a need to change my physical sex in response.
> Furthermore, I think if I were born a man, I would feel exactly as I do
> now - satisfied in my physical sex with no desire to change that, but with
a
> gender-identity that was not totally man nor totally woman. I don't know
> what you would call my feelings... transgendered maybe?
Transgender is when you don't fit into the gender that is expected of you.
If you don't identify as a woman, or fit into the woman gender, than you are
transgendered. It certainly does not sound like you are transsexual.
To be transgendered means you identify either as the gender not expected (in
your case man), identify as a combination of both (bi-gender) or neither
(non-gendered). It's usually expressed through cross-dressing.
> 1) Is being TS an issue of not being able to internally relate to the
social
> role of your biological sex? The kind of situation where what you are
> *expected* to be doesn't fit what you *want* to be? You know, in childhood
> you're expected to want to play football and war and competitive games,
but
> you actually wanted to play pretend & dolls with girls, that sort of
thing?
> If it were possible and acceptable for you to live as women totally, but
> without changing your bodies, would you find this equally acceptable?
Sounds more like transgender, transsexual isn't just a dissatisfaction with
your role and identity, its a dissatisfaction with your physical sex.
Unless you would like to have a male body you ain't no transsexual.
> 2) Did you always know you were TS? I mean there had to have been a point
> where you didn't know the name for it, but did you always know that you
were
> a girl? (or a man for ftm)
People that actually are transsexual rather than cross-dressers like myself
will surely respond to this, but I have a feeling all transsexual do usually
feel that, and a lot of transgendered people do.
> 3) Was there ever a point where you doubted your feelings? Did you ever
> think perhaps you could live happily in a biologically male body, if you
> made lifestyle adjustments to allow for adequate expression of your need
to
> live out a female social role? Or did you always want the physical change,
> never doubting it?
Transsexuals will answer No, the physical change is necessary.
Transgendered people will answer Yes, I am happy being physically male but
exploring the identity of a woman, or fully adopting it.
> 4) A lot of TS ladies say that TS is caused when the brain-sex is
> incongruent with physical sex. I was wondering if science has yet "proven"
> that some people can be born with a brain that is completely incongruent
> with physical sex?
The existence of varying brain structures that are linked to gender is
pretty solid. The nature and strength of that link is not proven, at least
not to my satisfaction.
> 5) About gender identity and sexuality... are you sexually attracted to
the
> opposite sex of your physical sex, the opposite sex of your "brain sex",
or
> both?
Transsexuals and transgendered people can be attracted to either or both
sexes. There is no rule on the matter.
> 6) Finally, the most important question. Do you think it is possible for
you
> to ever live happily in your biological sexed bodies? Or does it cause you
> so much pain that you honestly cannot see it feasable? Please answer this
> question as honestly as possible... I know that the expected answer is
"no",
> but do you really believe that?
The majority if not all transsexuals have a burning need to change their
bodies, and will probably be happier with the sex change simply because it
would require a complete upheaval of their mindset for them to accept their
body, and it is simply easier to deal with the issue through surgery. Most
transsexuals will likely claim there is no other way.
> That's all I can think of now... thank you in advance for your replies :)
>
>
In case you're interested, I run a group for transgendered people and
transsexual people; feel free to join.
Wight
--------------------------------
Transgender Pride!
http://groups.msn.com/TGPride/
--------------------------------
Sandra251
I can answer a few of your questions. From my point of view as a post-op
ts, we all seem to have different stories. But, they're eerily similar
too. You can find a lot of very honest feeling and situation in the book
"True Selves" by Mildred Brown and Chloe Rounsley. See inline comments
below:
"aurora" <auro...@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:fIupc.8632$MH.31...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net:
There is actually more of a emotional gender spectrum than many people
realize -- it's not simply a matter of masculine man OR feminine woman
but a whole lot of mixing between these two extremes as well.
And there is also a span of androgyny in the middle to take into account
as well. In today's society it's ok for men to be a bit less than "macho
male" but he can pay a stiff social price for it, just as less than
"feminine females" pay too.
> I imagine you all must feel the opposite way. Even though the male
> social role allows for a greater deemphisizing of gender-expression
> (non-sex behavior), the gender expression males *are* permitted to
> engage in is HEAVILY masculine-polarized. So, if you are a male who
> feels feminine, I imagine that must be very, very difficult.
>
> Anyway, other than for this social advantage men have, I can't say
> that I desire to be male.
> So I have an "unconventional" gender identitification as well, but I
> never have and do not feel a need to change my physical sex in
> response. Furthermore, I think if I were born a man, I would feel
> exactly as I do now - satisfied in my physical sex with no desire to
> change that, but with a gender-identity that was not totally man nor
> totally woman. I don't know what you would call my feelings...
> transgendered maybe?
Maybe gender neutral?
> Anyway, I hope you don't mind my intrusion into your group, but I was
> hoping you could help me understand what being TS feels like and is
> all about by answering a few questions I have. I do have a motivation
> for asking these questions other than neutral aquisition of knowledge;
> I was wondering if by you all relating your experiences to me I could
> better sort out what it is exactly that I'm feeling. Sometimes I've
> wondered if the way I feel is "real", or if I am just TS and deeply in
> denial. Your answers and experiences will help me understand what I am
> better.
>
> 1) Is being TS an issue of not being able to internally relate to the
> social role of your biological sex? The kind of situation where what
> you are *expected* to be doesn't fit what you *want* to be? You know,
> in childhood you're expected to want to play football and war and
> competitive games, but you actually wanted to play pretend & dolls
> with girls, that sort of thing? If it were possible and acceptable for
> you to live as women totally, but without changing your bodies, would
> you find this equally acceptable?
Being TS is an issue of having a gender identity (what sex you know
you're supposed to be) that is different from one's body sex, and wanting
to make whatever *physical* changes are necessary to accomplish that to
include having sex reassignment surgery.
To live as the opposite sex without having a body that is consistant with
that, is a different thing than transsexuality.
> 2) Did you always know you were TS? I mean there had to have been a
> point where you didn't know the name for it, but did you always know
> that you were a girl? (or a man for ftm)
Most of us know very early. In my case I knew about the age of 5 or 6
what sex I "should" have been. Unfortunately, my body chose a different
path than I knew was correct. Some bury this knowledge under family and
social pressure until it can be acted on much later.
> 3) Was there ever a point where you doubted your feelings? Did you
> ever think perhaps you could live happily in a biologically male body,
> if you made lifestyle adjustments to allow for adequate expression of
> your need to live out a female social role? Or did you always want the
> physical change, never doubting it?
We're taught that "this" is the way boys act and "that" is the way girls
act and in the process we're taught that the way we would "naturally" act
is wrong because it doesn't "fit" what others expect of us. When you're
young and small it's easy to be made to feel that what you want or know
is wrong and being dependent on grownups to feed, clothe, care for, and
protect you, you have to try to "rethink" what want.
> 4) A lot of TS ladies say that TS is caused when the brain-sex is
> incongruent with physical sex. I was wondering if science has yet
> "proven" that some people can be born with a brain that is completely
> incongruent with physical sex?
Science has shown that there are brain structures that are sexually
differentiated. Small studies have "suggested" that these structures show
up in individuals that have died and that they may show a
"contradiction" to the fact that the brain and body grow in the same
gender/sex fashion. Some have fastened on this to propose that a female
configured brain may develop naturally in a male body and vice-versa.
The book "Brain Sex" by Anne Moir and David Jessel and the issue of
hormonal cross-development is brought up on page 24 of that book.
> 5) About gender identity and sexuality... are you sexually attracted
> to the opposite sex of your physical sex, the opposite sex of your
> "brain sex", or both?
> (Personally I've always felt I was bisexual, but I am not totally sure
> about this either. However as long as I can remember I've been
> attracted to men and women, but then there were times where I felt I
> was attracted to neither men or women and I believed I was only out of
> social pressure. Your answers might provide illumination of the
> validity of my own feelings)
Sexuality or sexual preference is a very confusing subject for most
people when confronted with the prospect of transsexuality. For
heteronormal individuals the whole thing seems a bit Kafkaesque. For
these people "heterosexual" is where men prefer women as sexual partners
and women prefer men. "Homosexual" is a variant of this where men prefer
men and women prefer women. This particular form of sexuality has been
deemed "inappropriate" to put it mildly by religious purists. Of course,
bisexuality holds an odd fascination as the state where an individual has
an attraction to members of both sexes but this may vary toward more
heterosexuality in one individual and homosexuality in another
individual. As soon as you throw a transsexual factor into the mix things
get muddy real fast. If a person has a male body and a female mind and
falls in love with *either* sex it could be considered both hetero and
homo sexual simultaneously depending on who's doing the labelling.
> 6) Finally, the most important question. Do you think it is possible
> for you to ever live happily in your biological sexed bodies? Or does
> it cause you so much pain that you honestly cannot see it feasable?
> Please answer this question as honestly as possible... I know that the
> expected answer is "no", but do you really believe that?
If I had honestly felt I could have lived a high quality life as my
biological sex I probably would have. This, however, was absolutely NOT
the case for me and for any number of other TS's I know. The whole point
was that life as the "wrong" sex for me was intolerable. It was both a
lie to please others and a prison for the soul within me. Changing sex,
having the surgery and a body that now fits what I *KNEW* to be right and
true and proper was a freedom beyond any words I know to describe it.
> That's all I can think of now... thank you in advance for your replies
> :)
>
>
Sandra
PS you might want to pick up the book "Gender Outlaw" by Kate Bornstein.
It's a fascinating read.
Danielle
> On Sat, 15 May 2004 14:04:24 -0700, "Elaine" <ela...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>>I'm not going to answer any of your questions in this group
>
>
> No surprises there...
>
>
>>or post here anymore
>
>
> Don't let the door hit yer ass on the way out sweety.
>
>
Go to hell blake.
I can't speak for anyone else but my reasons for being here are because
of the very people your chasing away. It would be stupid to consider
transition without considering alternatives, and i have done, i'm
capable of my own thoughts and judgment and i don't need to witness a
running battle. Beyond language i'm simply guided by instinct and i just
don't need your rubbish.
I don't care about your 12 years of history here or your childish ego, i
don't like you blake because of what you've done here. I know you
haven't done it alone, but you are the most significant factor and you
know that all too well. You've made the people who come here for no
significant gain uncomfortable and have ruined this place for people
like myself who are socially disconnected and emotionally isolated.
Please just leave and stay away.
CharliSue
wrote:
Probably. However society isn't going to get to that point any time
soon. Besides, it would be impossible to be "totally" without changing
my body.
>
>2) Did you always know you were TS? I mean there had to have been a point
>where you didn't know the name for it, but did you always know that you were
>a girl? (or a man for ftm)
It was known to me in childhood. The parents didn't want to hear about
it.
>
>3) Was there ever a point where you doubted your feelings? Did you ever
>think perhaps you could live happily in a biologically male body, if you
>made lifestyle adjustments to allow for adequate expression of your need to
>live out a female social role? Or did you always want the physical change,
>never doubting it?
I tried for more than forty years to live as a male. It didn't work.
>
>4) A lot of TS ladies say that TS is caused when the brain-sex is
>incongruent with physical sex. I was wondering if science has yet "proven"
>that some people can be born with a brain that is completely incongruent
>with physical sex?
Yes, there is an area of the brain that is a different size in males
than females. TS women are found to have the same size as genetic
women. Men taking hormone therapy (for prostate cancer for example)
have the same size as any other men. The area is not changed by
hormone therapy. It is that size at birth.
However, this can only be determined post-mortem. Someday, scans will
be able to measure this in living persons.
>
>5) About gender identity and sexuality... are you sexually attracted to the
>opposite sex of your physical sex, the opposite sex of your "brain sex", or
>both?
>(Personally I've always felt I was bisexual, but I am not totally sure about
>this either. However as long as I can remember I've been attracted to men
>and women, but then there were times where I felt I was attracted to neither
>men or women and I believed I was only out of social pressure. Your answers
>might provide illumination of the validity of my own feelings)
I am sexually attracted to both. This varies with a lot of TS people.
Assumption is that sexuality and sex of the person are independent.
>
>6) Finally, the most important question. Do you think it is possible for you
>to ever live happily in your biological sexed bodies? Or does it cause you
>so much pain that you honestly cannot see it feasable? Please answer this
>question as honestly as possible... I know that the expected answer is "no",
>but do you really believe that?
I tried to live as a male as I was expected to do. It simply was not
working. Since transition, I have found a peace that I've never known
before. I am no longer angry all the time.
>
>That's all I can think of now... thank you in advance for your replies :)
>
You're welcome,
Sue
CharliSue
wrote:
>On Sat, 15 May 2004 20:03:23 GMT, "aurora" <auro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Hi everyone, I've been lurking on the group for a couple of days. I am not a
>>transsexual, I am a 21 y/o biological female.
>
>Hi Aurora...
>
>I'm going to get jumped on for this but... Reading your post makes me think
>you might get on better in alt.support.crossdressing which is mainly about
>transgender issues and insights.
>
You're very right LD. You don't know the difference between a
crossdresser and being TS.
Perhaps YOU are the one who better fits in the crossdressers group.
Clearly you cannot speak about SRS with any authority!
Sue
Sandra251
Sandra
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From: L D Blake <ldl...@noplace.not>
Newsgroups: alt.support.srs
Subject: Re: What does being transsexual feel like?
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L D Blake <ldl...@noplace.not> wrote in
news:c6vda0l59rqfurpas...@4ax.com:
> On Sun, 16 May 2004 14:33:55 +1000, Danielle <danik...@ihug.com.au>
> wrote:
>
>>I can't speak for anyone else but my reasons for being here are
>>because of the very people your chasing away.
>
> Then you're here for the wrong reasons.
>
> The ones I give a hard time are the closed minded fuckups who actually
> do nothing but dump on others and befuddle any attempt at reasonable
> conversation. You don't learn a damned thing talking to those fools.
>
>
>>It would be stupid to consider
>>transition without considering alternatives, and i have done, i'm
>>capable of my own thoughts and judgment and i don't need to witness a
>>running battle. Beyond language i'm simply guided by instinct and i
>>just don't need your rubbish.
>
> IOW... my mind is slammed shut and please don't bother me with
> anything that doesn't fit my own narrow views.
>
> How sad.
>
>
>>I don't care about your 12 years of history here or your childish ego,
>>i don't like you blake because of what you've done here. I know you
>>haven't done it alone, but you are the most significant factor and you
>>know that all too well. You've made the people who come here for no
>>significant gain uncomfortable and have ruined this place for people
>>like myself who are socially disconnected and emotionally isolated.
>
> Well... maybe if you'd join in the conversations and talk to people
> without getting all pissy pants you wouldn't be so isolated.
>
>
>>Please just leave and stay away.
>
> Nope.
>
>
Danielle
Blake, there was no need to misinterpret anything i said to be offended.
L D Blake wrote:
> On Sun, 16 May 2004 14:33:55 +1000, Danielle <danik...@ihug.com.au>
> wrote:
>
>
>>I can't speak for anyone else but my reasons for being here are because
>>of the very people your chasing away.
>
>
> Then you're here for the wrong reasons.
>
> The ones I give a hard time are the closed minded fuckups who actually do
> nothing but dump on others and befuddle any attempt at reasonable
> conversation. You don't learn a damned thing talking to those fools.
>
>
>
>>It would be stupid to consider
>>transition without considering alternatives, and i have done, i'm
>>capable of my own thoughts and judgment and i don't need to witness a
>>running battle. Beyond language i'm simply guided by instinct and i just
>>don't need your rubbish.
>
>
> IOW... my mind is slammed shut and please don't bother me with anything that
> doesn't fit my own narrow views.
>
> How sad.
>
>
>
>>I don't care about your 12 years of history here or your childish ego, i
>>don't like you blake because of what you've done here. I know you
>>haven't done it alone, but you are the most significant factor and you
>>know that all too well. You've made the people who come here for no
>>significant gain uncomfortable and have ruined this place for people
>>like myself who are socially disconnected and emotionally isolated.
>
>
> Well... maybe if you'd join in the conversations and talk to people without
> getting all pissy pants you wouldn't be so isolated.
>
>
>
>>Please just leave and stay away.
>
>
> Nope.
>
Scott M. Knowles
> It is hard for me to relate to an intense need to change physical sex to
> match internal gender. Even though I relate primarily to being female, and
> have no problem being female socially, I would say my gender-expression and
> identity is less feminine polarized than other women. Identifying as female
> always made me uncomfortable for some reason. It's hard to explain... even
> though I know I am a woman I don't feel completely like a woman.
Aurora,
The distinction for being, as the medical community defines a
transsexual, is the overwhelming desire to change your body to be
similar to the sex of your internally (some say innate) perceived
gender. This implies an overwhelming need, and as stated, the desire
for surgeries (cosmetic and srs). But the medical community hasn't
addressed the full spectrum of human conditions, namely one can feel
or be in between genders, feeling more of the other than their birth
sex, but it's not overwhelming.
The sad reality of the medical community is that all the conditions
are normal, have been normal in many animal species for millennia. If
you want to use the term transgendered, so be it. I prefer being
human. Also, remember many transsexuals accept the medical
community's standards, not just the SOC's, but the terminology,
because it gives the exclusivity from the larger transgender umbrella
labels. Some call this another form of gender discrimination, so be
careful with labels.
The comments about the social roles of men and women are interesting.
Thanks for presenting them. I do think men, especially non-macho
men, may disagree but it's because of their perception of the gender
roles. Men versus men often invites competitiveness, usually
initiated and sustained by the type-A men. A lot of men don't like it
and don't accept it, but don't think it's easy at times. An example
is that when a man is employed in an organization, it is expected as
the norm that he wants promotions. Many managers, both genders, find
it difficult to accept when a man says he's happy at the level he's
at, and often pigeon-hole him for the reminder of his career.
Quite a few people may express the idea that although women have a
harder time in the work and have more expected of them outside the
workplace, they also have more freedom of expression from the
ultra-feminine to the butch. It's somewhat accepted women can work to
the level they want, to a point anyway, and then management not only
allows it, but often will keep them engaged with new or different
types of work. It depends on the organization.
> However, if they wan't to be neither it is much less acceptable
> than it is for men to be "nongendered". Men have the social option of being
> valued for ideas and contributions unrelated to gender identity expression,
> our society does not view women in the same way.
This is an interesting observation, and to a some extent quite true.
Men can be unconventional and still be heard and their work accepted,
but to a point and often with great difficulty. Men use different
standards than women judging people, and men in management more often
than not expect similar behavior and expressions from other men.
Women in management sometimes are more accepting of unconventional
expression, focusing on the individual. But these are generalities,
and there are many men and women in management who don't think or work
that way.
> So I have an "unconventional" gender identitification as well,
> ... transgendered maybe?
If you want a label, ok, but it's not unconventional. Why not just be
yourself? That's the hardest thing to do in today's society with all
its different identities, and people's need for labels. Don't be your
own enemy putting labels on yourself that aren't necessary.
> Anyway, I hope you don't mind my intrusion into your group, but I was hoping
> you could help me understand what being TS feels like and is all about by
> answering a few questions I have.
This may not be the best place to find answers, as you've seen the
variety of posts here. Better places would be health professionals
experienced in gender issues, and friends and groups doing things you
enjoy. Just enjoy life and let the rest happen.
As for the question of kids and toys/play, the catagorization of kids
by their toys and play is one of the most overblown examples of what
is expected of boys and girls, and it's often imposed by parents
wanting something than letting kids be kids. What a kid plays with
isn't an indication of much, it's how they play that provides clues to
their personality, and not their gender identity. But kids also see
what parent expect, and will change their habits for acceptance. I
wish child psychologists and parents would get over this notion.
An example: I have a neighbor who's ~3 year old girl loves to run,
ride her bike and explore. She hates sitting still, doesn't play with
dolls or things like that. She's energetic, almost always happy,
likes greeting people, and loves to just move around. She doesn't
care what wears so long as she can be doing something active. What
does that say about her that's gender based?
The rest of your questions would probably be better asked of people
you know are knowledgeable and experienced in the issue of gender
identity. There is good but inconclusive research about this, and I
would suggest you research the material or ask those you trust. As
well stated, many can recite the books and journals, but few are
health professionals or have the experience of working for support
groups or others in the community.
Nice post and some interesting questions. Good luck.
--Scott--
Jessika
a
> transsexual, I am a 21 y/o biological female.
> It is hard for me to relate to an intense need to change physical sex to
> match internal gender. Even though I relate primarily to being female, and
> have no problem being female socially, I would say my gender-expression
and
> identity is less feminine polarized than other women. Identifying as
female
> always made me uncomfortable for some reason. It's hard to explain... even
> though I know I am a woman I don't feel completely like a woman.
>
> However, even though I don't feel like a woman, I don't feel like a man
> *either* and never really desired to have a sex change. I would say even
> though I don't feel totally like a woman, I feel even less like a man.
Funny, I feel more like a man than I do a woman, and it's all because I took
time out to realize it. ; S
How
> confusing is that, lol. There were times where I thought my life would be
> easier if I were a man... the male social role allows for much less
emphasis
> on gender expression. It is more acceptable for a man to be "no sexed"
than
> it is for a woman. If a man doesn't want to fit into the macho-tough-guy
> male polarized social role, he doesn't have to... he can instead be a
brain,
> a geek, and be quite socially successful. Women don't have this option...
> unless they exhibit gender-polarized behavior they are considered
> worthless/beneath consideration. The female social role demands that women
> behave femininely. If women do not want to be feminine, then they must be
> masculine (masculine female expression is way more accepted than feminine
> male expression, but it is still less desirable than feminine female
> expression).
It's also less desirable, in considerable cases, to be masculine female than
it is for a male to be feminine. This makes it hard for those (male and
female) that have a more masculine (or agender) approach in society.
However, if they wan't to be neither it is much less acceptable
> than it is for men to be "nongendered". Men have the social option of
being
> valued for ideas and contributions unrelated to gender identity
expression,
> our society does not view women in the same way.
>
I totally disgree, FTM TS's in history have had probably almost as much
success as MTF- however it's hardly comparible as their intentions are,
sparing those unique few, in no way similar.
> I imagine you all must feel the opposite way. Even though the male social
> role allows for a greater deemphisizing of gender-expression (non-sex
> behavior), the gender expression males *are* permitted to engage in is
> HEAVILY masculine-polarized. So, if you are a male who feels feminine, I
> imagine that must be very, very difficult.
It's quite the opposite for masculine female- most especially in the
instance the female is child-rearing- she can't expect to exclude a
masculine understanding from her female daughter, nor should she expect to
exclude feminine behavior from her son. Or so one might hope.
>
> Anyway, other than for this social advantage men have, I can't say that I
> desire to be male.
Desire and belief aren't even on the same page.
> So I have an "unconventional" gender identitification as well, but I never
> have and do not feel a need to change my physical sex in response.
> Furthermore, I think if I were born a man, I would feel exactly as I do
> now - satisfied in my physical sex with no desire to change that, but with
a
> gender-identity that was not totally man nor totally woman. I don't know
> what you would call my feelings... transgendered maybe?
>
So, you're saying that if you were born male rather than female, you
wouldn't then be dysphoric? Or were you born male would you be transgendered
(/TS) then, as well? Clue me in.
> Anyway, I hope you don't mind my intrusion into your group, but I was
hoping
> you could help me understand what being TS feels like and is all about by
> answering a few questions I have. I do have a motivation for asking these
> questions other than neutral aquisition of knowledge; I was wondering if
by
> you all relating your experiences to me I could better sort out what it is
> exactly that I'm feeling. Sometimes I've wondered if the way I feel is
> "real", or if I am just TS and deeply in denial. Your answers and
> experiences will help me understand what I am better.
>
Their answers and experiences will be completely gender-biased, and never
from a GG POV., not that that's unacceptible- maybe transphobic.
> 1) Is being TS an issue of not being able to internally relate to the
social
> role of your biological sex? The kind of situation where what you are
> *expected* to be doesn't fit what you *want* to be? You know, in childhood
> you're expected to want to play football and war and competitive games,
but
> you actually wanted to play pretend & dolls with girls, that sort of
thing?
> If it were possible and acceptable for you to live as women totally, but
> without changing your bodies, would you find this equally acceptable?
>
Good question.
> 2) Did you always know you were TS? I mean there had to have been a point
> where you didn't know the name for it, but did you always know that you
were
> a girl? (or a man for ftm)
Growing up I would never have expected there to be such similiarity between
male and female as I've come to discover. I always thought they were polar
opposites, that is, until I find out for myself by exploration... Then, was
I ever confused about how my born gender and opposite gender relate? More
than anything, then.
>
> 3) Was there ever a point where you doubted your feelings? Did you ever
> think perhaps you could live happily in a biologically male body, if you
> made lifestyle adjustments to allow for adequate expression of your need
to
> live out a female social role? Or did you always want the physical change,
> never doubting it?
Well, as FTM, I imagine I could be FTM without SRS if and only if I can
expect my partners to conclude this of me- this would be much simpler with
SRS, but it's not that difficult as it is.
>
> 4) A lot of TS ladies say that TS is caused when the brain-sex is
> incongruent with physical sex. I was wondering if science has yet "proven"
> that some people can be born with a brain that is completely incongruent
> with physical sex?
Not incongruent with physical sex, no- if there's any variation, their
physical characteristics *WILL* expand to fit. For instance, there are
intersexuals who fit more into one role (or both) while their bodies are at
odds with both. This is common. I read of an intersex who was more female
but still more male than female- she was a lesbian. Others, this'll help:
Transsexuals commonly show some physical indications of their condition that
may cause trouble for them from parents or peers.
The male-to-female transsexual may be slow to develop male sex
characteristics such as body hair, voice change, and overall physical
development compared to the general population. The Female-to-Male
Transsexual may display evidence of masculinization of bone structure, hair,
or voice. These traits are generally very subtle, but often present.
http://transsexual.org/What.html
http://transsexual.org/Why1.html
"pseu-do-her-maph-ro-dite: One that possesses the internal reproductive
organs of one sex while exhibiting some of the external physical
characteristics of the opposite sex."
Source- Dictionary.com
pseudohermaphroditism
A condition in which the gonads are of one sex but one or more
contradictions exist in the morphologic criteria of sex. Female
pseudohermaphroditism is a form in which the affected individual is a
genetic and gonadal female with partial masculinization. Male
pseudohermaphroditism is a form in which the affected individual is a
genetic and gonadal male with incomplete masculinization."
"Some psychiatrists view transsexualism as a form of delusional psychosis.
This resulted in the treatment of some transsexuals with antipsychotic
medications and electric shock therapy - but to no avail.
Yet another school of thought believes that gender identity development is a
learning process that is superimposed on an undifferentiated gender
matrix-i.e. gender identity develops as the result of "imprinting" and
"conditioning" processes. Thus, transsexualism is viewed as a disorder
resulting from improper learning and conditioning.
Some other studies have shown that transsexuals have a brain structure which
is neuroanatomically different from what is expected of their biological
sex. There is a particular area in the brain which is essential for sexual
behavior. This area is known as the BSTC (bed nucleus of the stria
terminals - central subdivision). A female type of BSTC was found in male
transsexuals in a pioneering study conducted in the Netherlands."
>
> 5) About gender identity and sexuality... are you sexually attracted to
the
> opposite sex of your physical sex, the opposite sex of your "brain sex",
or
> both?
> (Personally I've always felt I was bisexual, but I am not totally sure
about
> this either. However as long as I can remember I've been attracted to men
> and women, but then there were times where I felt I was attracted to
neither
> men or women and I believed I was only out of social pressure. Your
answers
> might provide illumination of the validity of my own feelings)
>
not the opposite sex of my brain sex, but rather the same sex of my brain
sex, and with no regard to physical sex.
I'm and will always be bisexual, neither orientation suits me more.
> 6) Finally, the most important question. Do you think it is possible for
you
> to ever live happily in your biological sexed bodies? Or does it cause you
> so much pain that you honestly cannot see it feasable? Please answer this
> question as honestly as possible... I know that the expected answer is
"no",
> but do you really believe that?
>
> That's all I can think of now... thank you in advance for your replies :)
I wish it were possible to live happily in my biological body while at the
same time, making less of an intrusion on the body by finding alternatives
to SRS, toys for instance. Toys that potentiate impersonating and
role-playing sexes/genders. (I've often thought about constructing such and
more, there be any contributions.) One thing about having a human shell is
that it's impressionable. You do it right, and it responds accordingly- the
whole body is like this- doesn't respond well to pain, but in most cases can
thrive off the pleasure associated with it- and you'll come to find, has a
mind of it's own. To meet its' expectations, well, that's another story,
best saved for- not in your lifetime.
Jess
--
Bring the violence
It's significant
To the life
If you've ever known anyone
Bring the violence
It's significant
To the life
Can you feel it?
Picture this
If I should make the change
I'd love to pull the wires from the wall!
Did you?
And who are you?
And how can I try?
Here inside I like the metal
Don't you?
"the shortest distance between two points is not always a straight line"
Jessika
news:c86qv7$3fa$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
Whoa. Okay, I think Laura's reaction was self-justifying when she remained
insistent upon the fact that this is the place for TS and questioning alike.
Jessika
Sure sounds offensive to me.
Jessika
news:5Vvpc.489713$oR5.57076@pd7tw3no...
It isn't always the case that it is in fact the brain one holds responsible
for gender, in many cases, it can be biology.
Jessika
news:c86b3t$oab$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
Care to elaborite?
> > 5) About gender identity and sexuality... are you sexually attracted to
> the
> > opposite sex of your physical sex, the opposite sex of your "brain
sex",
> or
> > both?
>
> Transsexuals and transgendered people can be attracted to either or both
> sexes. There is no rule on the matter.
They might also be attracted to their same brain sex, or opposite brain sex,
not to exclude this as possible for physical sex. : S
Jessika
news:a8d8f30.04051...@posting.google.com...
Only having read half-way through this, I've GOT to say this sounds like an
ideal focal point for this group.
Jess
Jessika
news:kluea0d0ktkk7u0ps...@4ax.com...
> On 16 May 2004 07:02:28 -0700, sc...@wsrphoto.com (Scott M. Knowles)
wrote:
>
> >As for the question of kids and toys/play, the catagorization of kids
> >by their toys and play is one of the most overblown examples of what
> >is expected of boys and girls, and it's often imposed by parents
> >wanting something than letting kids be kids. What a kid plays with
> >isn't an indication of much, it's how they play that provides clues to
> >their personality, and not their gender identity. But kids also see
> >what parent expect, and will change their habits for acceptance. I
> >wish child psychologists and parents would get over this notion.
>
>
Personality, not gender identity. This reminds me, my lil sis growing up
would always tell my lil bro not to wear chapstick, as she fooled him into
thinking it wasn't masculine, but feminine, and discouragingly, not for him.
This happens alot in cisgenders' reaction toward trans/bi-gender, and I
think it's uncalled for. It seems to be the main arguement- that it indeed
is a characteristic of femininity to pursue vanity (for lack of a better
word).
Jess
--
Bring the violence
It's significant
To the life
If you've ever known anyone
Bring the violence
It's significant
To the life
Can you feel it?
Picture this
If I should make the change
I'd love to pull the wires from the wall!
Did you?
And who are you?
And how can I try?
Here inside I like the metal
Don't you?
"the shortest distance between two points is not always a straight line"
Seven
> >of the very people your chasing away.
>
Again with the projection of your self-loathing. You must want to be
disliked.
> >Please just leave and stay away.
>
> Nope.
The male-woman wags his member.
Jessika
news:TkNpc.20904$6f5.1908243@attbi_s54...
What more can one ask for than the acceptance a group is, in part, willing
to offer? The whole is more than the sum of its' parts, when you think
you're all alone- think again. Though it might seem you're not able to find
support, it might just be there waiting to depend upon you.
Driveling,
Danielle
>
> Whoa. Okay, I think Laura's reaction was self-justifying when she remained
> insistent upon the fact that this is the place for TS and questioning alike.
>
>
> Jess
>
Jess, i don't mind questioning. Blake has said quite clearly that his
aim is to destroy the group and all because of something he claims
Sandra said on another group which he took offense to.
Jennifer Usher
"L D Blake" <ldl...@noplace.not> wrote in message
news:c6vda0l59rqfurpas...@4ax.com...
> >I don't care about your 12 years of history here or your childish ego, i
> >don't like you blake because of what you've done here. I know you
> >haven't done it alone, but you are the most significant factor and you
> >know that all too well. You've made the people who come here for no
> >significant gain uncomfortable and have ruined this place for people
> >like myself who are socially disconnected and emotionally isolated.
>
> Well... maybe if you'd join in the conversations and talk to people
without
> getting all pissy pants you wouldn't be so isolated.
Lyle, she is not isolated. Most here feel the same way.
--
Jennifer Usher
Jennifer Usher
> Transsexuals like to day they have the brain of a woman. That is most
> definitely not proven and is more a myth than reality, although there is a
> small bit of growing evidence. Not only that, but most feminists would
> violently object to any such claim. What can be found, can also be
> prevented.
Is it not interesting that this person who had SRS for one of most reasons
that has ever been encountered spends a great deal of time trashing the
increasingly accepted theory that transsexualism has a physical cause. Gee,
I wonder, perhaps he knows he doesn't have a woman's brain, and can't stand
the thought that any transsexual actually does.
> It you have been lurking here for any time you will find that some
consider
> themselves "pure" or "true" - all of which is so much nonsense. It seems
to
> be a way for some to boost their egos, without regard for any proof.
> Elaine's reply to you is not so much as a reply, but just a barb thrown at
> Laura. too bad - as she missed the content and simply targets the
> personality. That happens a lot here, as you have seen. Unhappily, it
> means that some good advise goes by the wayside, buried in an avalanche of
> hatred.
Actually, the truth is that people here do not accept this person as having
a female gender, or having sought SRS for anything but a very odd, and quite
frankly, twisted reason. And because of that, he has tried to present them
as something akin to Nazis. He has violated Godwin's Rule numerous times.
> Not all of us are twisted by hate. In time, you will be able to sort of
the
> writers.
And if anyone is twisted by hate, it is Mr. Willow.
Jessika
So, you're telling me that because someone is against SRS, they shouldn't be
here? Whatever happened to learning the hard way, and experiencing things
for oneselves?
Danielle
> "Danielle" <danik...@ihug.com.au> wrote in message
> news:c897l3$r8l$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
>
>>Jessika wrote:
>>
>>>Whoa. Okay, I think Laura's reaction was self-justifying when she
>
> remained
>
>>>insistent upon the fact that this is the place for TS and questioning
>
> alike.
>
>>>
>>>Jess
>>>
>>
>>Jess, i don't mind questioning. Blake has said quite clearly that his
>>aim is to destroy the group and all because of something he claims
>>Sandra said on another group which he took offense to.
>
>
>
> So, you're telling me that because someone is against SRS, they shouldn't be
> here? Whatever happened to learning the hard way, and experiencing things
> for oneselves?
>
> Jess
>
I didn't tell you that at all, but this is alt.support.srs after all.
Some things need to be learnt the hard way, some things do not.
Jessika
You don't think Lauras objections to SRS would benefit anyone thinking about
it but won't risk it all because, it's permanent? You'd rather they get they
SRS, and not be forewarned that they just may, just MAY regret it? Now, if
learning the hard way is anything, it's that. It isn't like anyone who is
interested in SRS will take Laura seriously, that's obviously not her
specialty.
Danielle
Would i? Well, you informed me that i don't think that Laura's
objections to SRS would benefit anyone, but finish by saying that anyone
interested in SRS is unlikely to take Laura seriously. If they don't
realise it's permanant they should probably talk to a therapist.
What i have said is that Blake has said several times that he or she is
here to destroy this group, that is what upsets me. As for the debate
against SRS, i think that there is some merit to the argument itself. As
you have said, being taken seriously isn't Blake's speciality and i
think that he or she knows that well.
Why do you think that blake continues with this debate?
Jennifer Usher
"Jessika" <rhabdopho...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Rp3qc.269230$e17....@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> You don't think Lauras objections to SRS would benefit anyone thinking
about
> it but won't risk it all because, it's permanent? You'd rather they get
they
> SRS, and not be forewarned that they just may, just MAY regret it? Now, if
> learning the hard way is anything, it's that. It isn't like anyone who is
> interested in SRS will take Laura seriously, that's obviously not her
> specialty.
Part of the counseling that a transsexual receives before being approved for
surgery includes being informed that the surgery is irreversible. If the
patient does not understand this, they are not going to be approved.
--
Jennifer Usher
Jennifer Usher
"L D Blake" <ldl...@noplace.not> wrote in message
> On Tue, 18 May 2004 00:36:57 +1000, Danielle <danik...@ihug.com.au>
> wrote:
>
> >Why do you think that blake continues with this debate?
>
Thanks for once again confirming everything said against you.
--
Jennifer Usher
Sandra251
news:Rp3qc.269230$e17....@twister.nyroc.rr.com:
> <snipped for brevity>
>
> You don't think Lauras objections to SRS would benefit anyone thinking
> about it but won't risk it all because, it's permanent? You'd rather
> they get they SRS, and not be forewarned that they just may, just MAY
> regret it? Now, if learning the hard way is anything, it's that. It
> isn't like anyone who is interested in SRS will take Laura seriously,
> that's obviously not her specialty.
>
> Jess
>
Jess, We have a procedure that we follow, called the Standards Of Care,
here in the US, and similar ones in places like Canada and the UK, that
lays out the requirements needed for obtaining surgery. The SOC outlines
what gender counseling is appropriate, the degree of time spent in living
full time as one's target gender/sex in society, and what's needed to
verify successful completion of these requirements. LD's objections go
much further than a simple objection to SRS -- even to the point of
throwing out the requirements of the SOC and the SOC itself. In that
event, some people would propose that anyone could walk into a surgeon's
office, sign a simple consent form and have a sex change operation. How
many people would you think, in that case, would have second thoughts the
next day? That's what the SOC and the Real Life Test and the gender
therapy is all about, hon. To make sure people don't jump before they're
ready.
Sandra
Jennifer Usher
"Sandra251" <sand...@notmyrealaddy.com> wrote in message
news:Xns94EC8E8AEA4D1s...@207.217.125.201...
> Jess, We have a procedure that we follow, called the Standards Of Care,
> here in the US, and similar ones in places like Canada and the UK, that
> lays out the requirements needed for obtaining surgery. The SOC outlines
> what gender counseling is appropriate, the degree of time spent in living
> full time as one's target gender/sex in society, and what's needed to
> verify successful completion of these requirements. LD's objections go
> much further than a simple objection to SRS -- even to the point of
> throwing out the requirements of the SOC and the SOC itself. In that
> event, some people would propose that anyone could walk into a surgeon's
> office, sign a simple consent form and have a sex change operation. How
> many people would you think, in that case, would have second thoughts the
> next day? That's what the SOC and the Real Life Test and the gender
> therapy is all about, hon. To make sure people don't jump before they're
> ready.
As part of the process of getting my letters, my therapist has informed me
that I have to go over all the stuff like that. The letter is supposed to
include information stating that I am aware of the nature of the surgery,
the risks, the fact that it is permanent, etc.
--
Jennifer Usher
Silence Dogood
"Sandra251" wrote...
" In that
event, some people would propose that anyone could walk into a surgeon's
office, sign a simple consent form and have a sex change operation. How
many people would you think, in that case, would have second thoughts the
next day?
Actually, the three best known advocates of surgery on demand are Lynn
Conway, Andrea James, and Deirdre McCloskey.
Deirdre is interesting, for she produced a book called "Crossing" which
details a stereotypical AG life, but demands that she not be called an AG or
she will sue (or so she says). Her thing is libertarianism, which advocates
total freedom from interference - and "on demand" follows that logically.
It is strangely inconsistent with threatening to sue anyone who differs with
her after she went public with her book, but that is her way, it seems.
She went direct from being Donald to becoming Deirdre, with a name change
along the way as I recall and a very hard-nosed attiude towards family
members who differed (sort of "you are either with me or against me", which
sounds very familiar these days). James wants surgery on demand so that
nobody will ever know but makes money off being a public TS, rather
inconsistent. Conway wants "on demand" and FFS so that only the very best
successes will qualify financially, her cohorts.
Of course, for anyone outside the United States, "on demand" would elimiate
stated funding of SRS, but the three care little of "outsiders", it seems.
US uber allies. Andrea has advised that in her opinion by some magic, SRS
will remain covered in such countries, giving an expert answer in soemthing
she knows nothing about. Those in the countries and in charge, say "no
way" - SRS as a funded procedure requries DSM listing or an alternative.
The threesome simply don't care about that, or anything but their own needs
and fear of "stigma", as they have taken to calling it. Their sites are
strangely silent (considering the amount of space two dedicate to other
issues) about the one's Sandra properly asks about - those who have second
thoughts the day after. To McCloskey, I suspect, those would simply have to
go away as "they made their bed they can lie in it".
I agree with Sandra's point, or what I assume to be one of her points, tha
surgery on demand is a very bad idea.
Willow
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Jennifer Usher
> Actually, the three best known advocates of surgery on demand are Lynn
> Conway, Andrea James, and Deirdre McCloskey.
Actually, a check on Conway's and James' sites show that Mr. Willow is again
lying. I fear he just can't help it.
> Deirdre is interesting, for she produced a book called "Crossing" which
> details a stereotypical AG life, but demands that she not be called an AG
or
> she will sue (or so she says). Her thing is libertarianism, which
advocates
> total freedom from interference - and "on demand" follows that logically.
> It is strangely inconsistent with threatening to sue anyone who differs
with
> her after she went public with her book, but that is her way, it seems.
>
> She went direct from being Donald to becoming Deirdre, with a name change
> along the way as I recall and a very hard-nosed attiude towards family
> members who differed (sort of "you are either with me or against me",
which
> sounds very familiar these days). James wants surgery on demand so that
> nobody will ever know but makes money off being a public TS, rather
> inconsistent. Conway wants "on demand" and FFS so that only the very best
> successes will qualify financially, her cohorts.
<SIGH> He is twisting the facts with regards to Deirde. Her hard-nosed
attitude towards her family is the quite reasonable result of her sister
having her incarcerated several times as mentally incompetent in an effort
to prevent her from having surgery. Deirde went through the standard RLT
and such.
> Of course, for anyone outside the United States, "on demand" would
elimiate
> stated funding of SRS, but the three care little of "outsiders", it seems.
> US uber allies. Andrea has advised that in her opinion by some magic, SRS
> will remain covered in such countries, giving an expert answer in
soemthing
> she knows nothing about. Those in the countries and in charge, say "no
> way" - SRS as a funded procedure requries DSM listing or an alternative.
> The threesome simply don't care about that, or anything but their own
needs
> and fear of "stigma", as they have taken to calling it. Their sites are
> strangely silent (considering the amount of space two dedicate to other
> issues) about the one's Sandra properly asks about - those who have second
> thoughts the day after. To McCloskey, I suspect, those would simply have
to
> go away as "they made their bed they can lie in it".
Mr. Willow is so obsessed with supporting J. Michael Bailey that he has no
qualms about lying completely. Again, take a look at their web sites, and
you will find that neither Andrea James or Lynn Conway actually support
surgery on demand. Mr. Willow is just making it all up trying to make
himself look better.
> I agree with Sandra's point, or what I assume to be one of her points, tha
> surgery on demand is a very bad idea.
A man with no shame, that is Mr. Willow.
--
Jennifer Usher