Ah friendship ! I agree with you Nicki and feel your good intent and
Michelles.
Lest we forget in this modern age how oft the improbable doth startle us,
LET THE SINGING LESSONS CONTINUE < I hope you don't think me impertinent
to cast in my lot with you . I have never met her,yet years ago in the
mirror, someone ever so like her.
Would  that I then had friends such as you . Perhaps I would have roused
myself more swiftly.
BTW Nicky , I love the way you write, cogent, crisp, vivid, and ever so
heartfelt it is palpable.
Karen is fortunate to have this electronic medium, confrontational yet not.
I believe this group is very
therapeutic, certainly it is for me.
Thank you.

--
        Natasha F
----------------------------------------
Let Love Dispell Hatred
----------------------------------------

<01be3ebb$94ce0a10$0732180c@hamiltonlabs>...

In article <77gdun$3v...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,

Because there is a world of diference in not liking yourself and not liking
which gender you happenned to be born into.  The former is a far more serious
and difficult condition to cure and is often confused, even by those seeking
SRS, with the latter condition which is cured by a few femmy pills and a bit
of cut and paste.

Excuse me while I gag myself with this handy spoon....
Karen ALL your problems are self-induced.  Problem have solutions and when you
refuse to implement the solution then YOU become the problem.  Wife doesn't
like you're lifestyle?  Too Fat?? Problems at work???  Deal with it. If you
don't -  or won't -  then YOU are the problem.

No you're biggest problem is that you're boring all those around you (and I"m
not just talking about this newsgroup) with your incessant whining about your
"unsolveable" problems.  Heck you annoy the bejezus out of me just listening
to the occasional snippets on the newsgroup - I pity the souls who must have
to hear this in 3D.  People will isolate themselves from you ,just as I and
others have, because if you haven't grown up already then they certainly
aren't going to spend the time to nursemaid you through the same difficulties
that all of us - yes ALL of us go through.  THAT'S what sets you apart.

Whine whine whine.... So you're not Miss America.  Neither am I.  Get over it
and get on with life because frankely my dear most of us don't give a damn.
Why should we if you dont?

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own    

Karen Elizabeth A. <k...@world.std.com> wrote:

Okay, I think I've had it by now and it's time to line up and shoot down
some myths.

Myth #1:  Karen had poor results on HRT.

She didn't.  Okay, she didn't grow huge boobs but then again very few TS
women approaching or past 40 get all that much development.  And anyway,
this is an eminently fixable problem and one shared with a whole lot of
genetic females!  That's why they invented implants, which Karen =got=!
Given the rest of what we face, does it really matter whether you got your
boobs through hormones or with the help of a surgeon?  I'm getting implants
just like most everyone else here.  You think I or anyone else loses a lot
of sleep that they can't have "real" boobs?  Give me a break!  The rest of
us have lives to lead and no time for that nonsense.

As for the rest of her "poor results," well, what could this possibly mean?
 Karen has, by her own admission, probably the most feminine features of
anyone in our local support group here in Boston.  Okay, well, maybe I'm
catching up a little, but golly, it cost me $27,000 and some incredibly
intense pain (see http://www.hamiltonlabs.com/FacialSurgery.htm) to even
get into the same ballpark with her.  And I still don't have a complexion
like Karen's.  The only person I know with skin like that is my 8-year-old
child!  The skin on Karen's hands is just like that, too.

Me, my skin looks (because it's true) like I spent too much time bicycling
in the Texas sun when I was in my 20s and then scarred it up for good
measure with some poor electrolysis.  I've seen oranges with smoother skin
than mine!  Okay, maybe I can fix it somewhat, but the way to do that is
laser skin resurfacing, which works (not without risk) by painfully frying
off the whole top layer of skin on your face, leaving your face
indistinguishable from a mound of oozing hamburger for a week or so.  Even
supposing I do all that, it's pretty obvious to me my skin will never look
like Karen's.  But do you see me pulling a Karen number here, poor Nicole,
her skin is so bad?  Oh, horseshit!  Of course not!

So what's left?  Well, there's body hair, I guess, but Karen hasn't got a
lot of that.  Okay, I don't have a lot either, but I've had hundreds of
hours of electrolysis all over my whole body to get there.

Finally, I suppose in some fantasy world estrogen might work as a great
diet pill or maybe even shrink one's skeletal frame, but I just don't see
that happening in this one.  Which brings me to myth #2.

Myth #2:  Karen is saddled with a big build that's beyond her control.

In another message she posted into this discussion, Karen claims she was on
a diet of only 1200 calories/day for a year and a half.  Well, I've known
Karen for over a year and anytime there's food around, Karen eats like
she's getting ready to hibernate.  She's got an eating disorder.

Last spring, she and I and another friend drove down in my car together to
see Menard speak at the XX Club in Hartford.  On the way out the door, I
grabbed up a bunch of bags of Pepperidge Farm cookies and other munchies
out of my kitchen just to throw in the car for the drive.  It was lots of
stuff because it was lots of kinds and I didn't know what anyone liked.  We
got onto the Mass Pike and immediately had to stop so Karen could stock up
with a Whopper and fries and whatever else they had.  By the time we got to
Hartford (at most, a two-hour drive) I looked in the back seat to discover
Karen had eaten =everything=.  Usually when people eat cookies, they leave
crumbs.  There wasn't even a crumb.  So this was a Whopper, fries,
whatever, plus something like two or three pounds of cookies in a period of
two hours.

After the talk, a bunch of us walked over to get an early dinner at a local
restaurant.  While everyone else was ordering stuff like a little cup of
clam chowder; Karen ordered something they brought out in a bucket!  Well,
maybe not a bucket, but it was a =huge= bowl of soup, followed by an
enormous dinner.

1200 calories/day?  When was that?  One day when Burger King was closed?

Yes, it's true that Karen is a little tall (about 6', I guess) and she may
be somewhat "big-boned."  But mostly, she's big because she eats too much.
She talks about her 40" ribcage as if these were the bones sticking out.
Well, let me tell you, it's not bones.  If Karen were to get her weight
down into a healthy range for a female her height, her body would look much
better.  Maybe not immediately, because obviously she might experience some
problems of loose skin 'till it tightened back up, but ultimately, she'd
look much better.

You've all seen her claims that she's tried it to see if she'd look better
slimmer and it didn't help.  Absurd!  She's never gotten her weight down
anywhere near where she should and, no surprise, to look at her, I doubt
she can spell exercise, much less that she's ever really done any.

Myth #3.  Karen doesn't pass because she's too big.

This is not Karen's real problem passing, to whatever extent she even has a
problem.  The real problems are in other areas:  First, she's done almost
nothing to modify her behavior to be all that feminine.  Look at her
sitting on a couch, for example, and she's usually got one leg up over the
other, resting an ankle on her knee, guy-style.  Her "excuse" is that she
can't cross her legs at the knees like a woman because (how did this
happen?) she's too fat.  When she walks, she carries her shoulders hunched
forward with her arms held close to her body, sort of like a quarterback
sneaking the ball.  She seems to make no attempt to mimic the loose, fluid
style of movement you see typical of most women.

Second, she rarely smiles and has this look about her as if she's just
shoplifted something and doesn't want to be caught.  She looks guilty!  You
can't do that and expect to pass!

Third, her clothing and makeup have all the style and pizzazz of a rummage
sale.  Now, I really do appreciate that when you're that big (once again,
how did this happen?), that it must be more difficult to find interesting
clothes.  But I was struck by Andrea Bennett's suggestion (originally over
in s.s.tg) that Karen should work on these things.  So far as I know, I
don't think Andrea's ever seen Karen or would have any other way of knowing
this is a problem, but I'll tell you, it is.

Now, okay, I admit, maybe I should talk!  Me, I'm rarely in anything but
jeans and tee shirts, wearing only my breakfast, certainly no makeup!  But
the difference is I haven't been the one moaning about passing.  So it
seems to me that if you are worried enough to complain, it ought to be
worth it to you to work on a flattering, professional woman's wardrobe.
Heck, the other day, I was visiting a customer (a big local software
company) and there's everyone all dressed up, including a couple women I
thought had to be even bigger than Karen and they looked great.  But the
difference is they were wearing some great clothes; stuff you could put
over a Buick and make it look sexy.

Myth #4.  Karen doesn't pass.

Well, this one's the most stupidly annoying of the whole bunch.  Frankly,
she makes so little genuine effort to pass besides jabbing herself with
estrodial injections, you'd think she really wouldn't pass.  And you'd be
wrong!  She actually passes just fine.  Certainly, before I went off to
Ousterhout, I'm sure she was passing better than I was.  Matter of fact, if
anyone saw me first in profile, I almost always got read.  But again, there
were some healthy differences:  First, I was able to keep some perspective
here, dammit!  Passing is NOT everything and though I fully admit that
while I revel today in what Ousterhout has done for me, anyone who knows me
can tell you I was a happy person before this even when I expected I would
never pass all that well.  For me, and I suggest, for anyone who's TS, the
reason to transition is so you can be =you=, not so you can pass.  And your
measure of success should be how well you =are= you, not whether you pass.

Second, I was willing to do something about it.  I was willing to spend
some money and undergo a lot of pain on something that honestly I was not
sure would necessarily improve anything.  I was also willing to accept the
consequences of the surgery, which not everyone talks about, namely that my
nose near the septum and the whole top of my head are completely numb, with
no guarantee that sensation will ever return.  (This is the inevitable
consequence of the incisions Ousterhout has to make across the nerves.)  I
was also willing to accept the risk of possible facial paralysis and other
complications.  As a friend in NY who's also an Ousterhout grad, put it:
Ousterhout's patients tend to look better than they feel.  Well, whatever,
I viewed all this as a small consequence, but the point is, I was willing
to do something and I was willing to accept that nothing in life of any
value is ever free.

Finally, I am annoyed by the comment about the few TS who can afford
"Ousterhout and his ilk."  I find this just a little offensive.  Okay, yes,
I had the money to spend on Ousterhout.  Well, guess what?  The reason I
had it is because I took big chances and worked my tail off these last 11
years starting a business.  And it =was= hard.  When I started my business,
I went from, I dunno, maybe $70K/year in 1987 as an engineering manager to
ZERO(!!) for the next 15 months as I wrote the first release of my product.
 My first full year of sales after that, I had a net income of $710.  The
next year, my net was still less than $11K.  So for better than 3 years, I
averaged less than $4K/year ...

read more »

Then accept the situation and make the best of it.  This doesn't mean you can't
live and be accepted as a woman, you just won't be able to  be totally stealth.

That is not as bad as you seem to think.  Your womanhood is not dependant upon
your past being hidden and never being figured out.  It doesn't have to matter
if other's figure out you are a post op Transsexual IF they still accept you as
a woman.  

Make it your goal to be so completely the woman you are, so comfortable in
being the woman you are, that those, who read you as a Transsexual woman or are
informed of it by someone else who reads you, determine that it is in the end
irrelevant to your womanhood.

They will only do so when they pick up from your manner, confidence and
demeanor that you consider it irrelevant and that you truly are a woman, even
if you do have a frame that makes it so many realize you are a Transsexual too.

I am glad you are on anti-depressants, I think they will help you gain such
confidence.  If they don't tell your Md and get another prescription until it
works.

Take Care........Love & Joy!
                     Cindy Starchild
                      http://members.aol.com/Cindy19942
{to email me remove "nojunk" from my e-mail address}

Silly Karen! Demanding perfection -- of yourself or others -- leads only to
performance anxiety. I have no numeric idea how well I'm passing, but wouldn't
be surprised to find it in the neighborhood of 90%.

The question, rather, is how well people treat you. Do they act as if their
life is better for having you in it? I get that, even from my 10%. If they like
you, they'll accept you. And isn't it acceptance as yourself that's important?

Hugs -- Ellen Rose

Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

Egads! A brown stain on the Freudian slip!

Aghast -- Ellen Rose

Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

I got just about no body fat redistribution and not much facial change.

Those "feartures" were mostly in place BEFORE HRT.

Not on the hands. But I have gotten geart skin out of this and I admit
that. It's the one area where I *have* gotten good results.

You have a build in the normal female range. Mine is NOWHERE near it.

Actually I do but I shave it.

You are not in possestion of all the facts (not that it ever stops you
from having an opinion) . I am not lying. If you have the courage ask my
wife about the time I was dieting. She was absolutely amazed by the
willpower I displayed and the length of time I kept it up. I showed you
pictures of what I looked like when i weighed 360lbs - remember?

I lost all that weight with that diet before you met me - and much of it
befor I joined the group in the year I decided that i would transition.
Last Febuary I was down to 220lbs - the lowest I've been since the 8th
grade.I've been told my an MD that with my build below 180 would not be
a healty weight.

When I realized that losing weight actually made me look worst because
of my frame I lost the drive to keep it up and went a bit too far back
in the other direction. It ws actually with the hope that, with the
increased HRT it would go back on in the right places.

I had a chicken sandwich small fries and a diet coke and had not eaten a
bite previously that day. Stop exagerating!!!

I ordered a bowl of Chowder not knowing the size having never been in
that restaurant and a single entree.

You damm well KNOW I put on a lot of weight since I met you. You saw the
pictures of me at 360lbs and you saw me at my lowest weight (if you can
remeber - you were going through a rough time tehn). HOW DARE YOU CALL
ME A LIAR when you have seen the effinence of that diet with your own
eyes. You forget facts when the are convient I see.

For that year and a half I was doing the intesive dieting by daily meals
consisted of:

Breafast:one cup of cereal with 1 cup of 2% milk (scrupulously measured)

Lunch: A Lean Cusine or Healty Choice meal < 300 caleries and < 20%
calories from fat amd a diet coke.

Supper: a frozen dinner meeting the same critera

Any snacks: Apples/or oranges

You want to feel my ribcage? When I was 220lbs the ribs were sticking
out some (for the first time in my life I may add) and i measured 42"
around the chest. There was not much fat was left there as I tend to put
it on in the stomach and thighs - ALWAY have. Hell even at 360 lbs I had
no psuedo breasts that you see on really heavy men!

Been down far enough to know that just ain't so. When I was at that
weight I got more stares then I do now.

I have nver rested my anke on my knee. When I do it's my calf AND with
agroup of TS's where I'm not thimking about it.

I have aa major curvature of the spine. If I can get my Xrays from the
hospital I can show it to you. It is PIANFUL for me to walk with ,y
shoulders bacl for any length of time.

That's not because of passing concerns but because I'm feeling bad. I do
smile when I'm feeling good.

Excuse me bu I COULD say a good bit about your taste in clothes bit i
won't stop to that. (You however have had no compunctions about
critizing others in the group on that point to me). I have ben
complement on by clothing make up and color coordination by numerous
people. I happen to work in a chemical laboratory BTW and was critized
by some of teh women at first for OVER dressing for that enviorment
(simply too dressy).

Nicki If I lost every once of extra weight I would still be in the plus
sizes. Also unlike you I can't go into Filenes and buy out theit entire
stock of sweaters in my size (have you worn them all yet?)

Not in my opinion.

 > seems to me that if you are worried enough to complain, it ought tobe

For my profession I have. The technical women dress less well then I do
in my company!

Sexy is not appropriate for the lab. If have no place to wear that type
of stuff and it's a bit expensive to decorate my closet with.

I have numerous incidents that have nothing to do with behavior cues
that show otherwise. And as I said no gg I know personally thinks so.

In an ideal world but - but thsi is an ideal world.

You did not have to risk keeping a roof over your head and the head of
your spouse to do it. I am certainly willing to undergo the pain. Heck I
expected a lot more then I had with SRS and was willing to bare it.

And it's only been in the last 5 years that it's gotten there with the
bigest part of that comming AFTER transition. In any case it's barely
enough to ...

read more »

People accept me as a TS just fine. It's not enough.

-Karen A,

Cheryl,
  I have not seen any of your posts as they not shown up on my normal news
server and have only just seen them through my AOL account.

<<
We've heard this a number of times from you, Karen, but you have a
mistaken impression of what stealth is.  It's not a geographical
escape, but a willingness to cut loose of all binding ties, forgo all
security and familiarity, and build life anew.

At this point in my life I can't do that type of stealth. Woodworking would be
the only way.

I have been a survivor all my life but never let myself care as much about
anything as this. You are right that, at this point, I don't have faith that I
can make it which is the biggest *internal* problem I have (the external is
real as well IMO). It scares the heck out of me.

<<
When I went stealth, I worked as a waitress and a hotel chambermaid,
which was a bit of a comedown from $50k a year.  These were menial,
unglamorous jobs.  The only saving grace was the wonderful acceptance
of the other women I worked with.  I don't think anyone knew, but if
they did it wouldn't have mattered, since I lived under the same
parameters as any other woman.

If I believed I could pass well enough that no on would know (asumming my wife
could be taken care of) I truely would not mind starting over to build a life
as a woman.  I am not afraid of hard work and I am no stranger to low paying
jobs.

<<
 Same low wages, lousy hours and
working conditions, but it was pure joy to have women friends who
accepted me as another woman.

I have only felt that type of acceptance for a very brief period but it is
something I will never forget.
<<
You continue to bemoan your fate, which from what I can tell is pretty
good compared to the circumstances of many transsexual and genetic
women.

Better the some and worst then others - both TS's and genetic women.
<<
 You had your surgey paid for, which many of us don't get,
you've managed to continue in your career and marriage.  If that's
falling apart, it's no one else's fault but your own.

On that I agree.

<<
 Instead of
working very hard to secure the foundations of what you do have and
build upon that, you complain constantly about what hasn't been given
to you.

For my body has been my biggest issue for most of my life. The way things have
gone I find very difficult to bear. Believe me I would trade the other things
for a reasonable body and good HRT results.

I believe I have worked hard at it.  When things have looked like they would
not work I have to admit I backed off out of fear of failure. I know this is
self defeating but in a way it's also self protecting. If I pulled out all the
stops even though there does not appear to be away to make it work, if it does
not I'm left with no possibilities.

I have worked hard but i hit a wall that I honestly belive has a high
probability of being unclimable. Finding out for sure would kill me.

<<
You come across to me as a very selfish person.  You want what you
want now, and damn everyone else who's stood beside you through all
this.  Your wife has remained with you through your SRS, which is
exceptional compared to the experience of most TSs, yet you portray
her as holding you back.  

I've tried to present a balanced picture.
In some ways she is and some ways she is supportive nad in some ways she is
holding me back. That's how she herself has portayed it. She has said in
matters of transition ,she is my worst enemy.
<<
Your employer not only kept you on, but
promoted you.  What are you doing for either of them?  Are you
becoming the best spouse and employee you can possibly be, or are they
simply adjuncts to the world according to Karen?
I am doing the best I can for her and I always have. Sometimes I'm not sure
what that is anymore.
<<
Part of being a woman is an attitude of sharing and caring for others.
I see none of that in your posts, it's all about me me me.  I wonder
if you are even capable of empathy toward others.  

Quite a lot actually. I've had sevaeral people at work seek me out to talk
about their problems because of it. I only show one side of myself here because
I adressing the central issues I'n struggling with internally.

<<
The situation of
Dawn, and thousands of other TSs like her, is a case in point.  There
are many in much worse circumstances than you are, but that becomes
merely a springboard to launch the latest round of Why Karen Can't
Pass.  That makes me nauseous.

I had no intention of making that intial post another round of all of that. I
was hurting and reacted with no forethought or plan. Please believe me in that
at least.

<<
In recent posts, we've had complaints about further indignities of
having to put money into your car, about how you regret having breast
implants, and other absurdities.  You could care less about girls
selling their bodies on the street just for food and shelter and
hormones when they can get them.  The problems of anyone else are
completely irrelevant to you, because there's no room for compassion
or consideration.  

Again you don't know me out side of the context of transition and my issues
surounding it. Surfice it to say I have heloped more then a few people in my
life.

<<
Stealth wouldn't do anything at all for you, Karen.  You still won't
be accepted as a woman by other women, as long as you maintain that
your supposed suffering is the only thing that matters.

Right now I am preocuupied with myself, that I admit - but that is not all of
who I am. Why do you think my wife is still with me and even my mother in law
still likes me?  I've not been rejected by any non-TS who knows ne reasonably
well. The reason for that is I am decent human being who tries to hurt no one
and do the best i can.

My worst fears going into transition about physical changes have been realized.
Maybe I'm blowing it out of proportion but it feels like my guts
have been ripped out.

<<
 I know women
working two jobs to put food on the table for their kids, because
their husbands left them.

I'm the child of such a family I'm well aware of that.

<<
  I've had friends who've had to hide in
women's shelters because a husband or boyfriend is stalking them,
waiting for another chance to beat them up again.

I've huddled in terror with my mother as a child while my father broke into the
house and procceded to burn her legs with cigarette butts.

<<
 You haven't even rid yourself of male expectations that the
world revolves around you, and you expect to be accepted as a woman?

I don't expect the world to revolve around me and never did.
<<
I don't accept you as living as a woman, nor do I know any who would.

You don't really know me only my fears and insecurites because that's all I've
shown online. It has been my outlet for them.
<<
Have you done anything for anyone else,
like offering time or money to a women's shelter, or helping out other
women in any way you can?
On a personal basis I have done things for women who were down on their luck
and have touched my life. Your assumptions are faulty.

<<
If you continue with this attitude, Karen, you'll find yourself to be
an old and bitter person with no friends.

No TS friends at least. I don't show my fears and insecurites to them.

<<
 The only one that needs to
change is you, and you don't seem to even realize that.

I know soe things need changing but I have lost all believe that the things I
really can change can make enough difference. and becaue of it am deathy
afraid. That may not make semse but it's what I'm going through right now.

<<
Do something
for someone else today, purely out of kindness with no expectation in
return, and perhaps all this gloom and darkness will begin to lift.

I have done so on many occasions in the past . Lately I've not as all my energy
has been consummed this sense of hoplesness and fear I feel.  I'm bearly
getting through the day and my life has narrowed to home and work. If an
opportunity presents istself, I will.

-Karen

Karen Elizabeth A. <k...@world.std.com> wrote:

Okay, I'll answer that, but only because you mention Julie's name.  This
was a conversation that took place long, long before I'd met Julie and
before I even knew her well.  I was struggling to understand some
combativeness I saw in her comments at the time.   I don't recall
precisely, but I think this was probably late winter, a year ago.  I
recounted some catty remarks told to me by someone who felt she'd just been
dissed by Julie but, as you say, I made clear at the time that I had no
personal knowledge if they were true.  I certainly said nothing of my own
opinions that was not totally consistent with my views expressed on-line,
all of which are available for review on Deja News.  As I got to know Julie
better, (she's a very bright and complex person) I grew to like her
immensely.  I did finally meet Julie for the first time in Dallas this last
month and I can say from personal observation that she is stunningly
beautiful, engaging and thoroughly feminine woman who dresses and presents
impeccably.

What can I say?  Women do this. :)  And my recollection is of you as a
willing and, oftentimes, enthusiastic participant in these conversations.
But I will disagree with the characterization you imply that any of my
remarks were ever said in a malicious manner or in any way as to imply a
reduced valuation of these people in my life.  Beyond that, I won't comment
on the specifics simply because I see no reason to bring them into this.

But I suppose if there is a lesson for anyone to learn, it is that there is
no such thing as sharing a confidence with you.  You obviously don't mind
that there may now be innocent bystanders worrying, gee, are people (even
if it's just Nicki and Karen) saying terrible things about me?

Well, if any of them are reading this and think they recognize themselves,
let me set their minds at ease:  the answer is no.  Karen is just being,
well, Karen.  She's just being a jerk and she doesn't mind using you if it
suits her purpose.  But no, no one (at least, not me) is saying terrible
things about anyone.  But if you're still worried and want to know exactly
what, if anything, I said about you, send me email and I will tell you, to
the best of my recollection.  If you like, I'll copy Karen on it so she
correct any "inaccuracies" she thinks she's found.

I don't say anything about anyone behind their backs I wouldn't be willing
to say to their faces.
--
Nicki Hamilton
http://www.hamiltonlabs.com/biography.htm

What is the purpose?  Geez, Michelle, I should have imagined it was pretty
clear.  This is a discussion and support group and I participate pretty
fully.  I'm getting tired of having every friggin' thread hijacked into a
discussion of whether Karen does or does not pass and whether it's because
of poor HRT results.   It annoyed the hell out of me to see her use Dawn's
comments as the latest jumping off point, especially considering all that
Dawn has had to go through.  It was just unseemly.

But also, contrary to your implication that I'm doing this only to piss
Karen off or because I'm pissed off, I do honestly wish Karen would take my
comments to heart because I think if she did, she could improve her lot.  I
appreciate that this does appear to be as pointless as trying to teach a
pig to sing, but I dunno, I just gotta try anyway.  If I thought you life
was circling the bowl and you needed a good knock on the head to wake up,
I'd do the same for you, too. :)
--
Nicki Hamilton
http://www.hamiltonlabs.com/biography.htm

Actually it has. For my part, it ended any possibility of our making up
and having any sort of friendship. I was under the mistaken impression
that it might happen with a bit more tine. As far as I can see, it's all
for the best anyway.

Unfortunately, it has likely ended my participation in the support group
we were both in as she is one of the people who hosts it now. After that
post I doubt we could co-exist peacefully in the same room as we manged
to last Wednesday.

-Karen

In Julies's case yes. After you mentioned the other pseron I agreed that
about her choice of clothing an sruprise at it but I did not make haver
thew fun you did in talking about it or initiated it as you did and you
set the tone. In the third case I had to explain to why a person in her
position would find things so difficult you had no clue. You have often
shown your insentivity to others who you percieve to be lacking in
"courage".

They were ceratinly made with an attitude of scorn and/or ridicule. you
are not the goodie-two shoes you make yourself out to be.

Funny how, execpt for me, you don't seem to though.

-Karen

I doubt we will be talking together again. Your post pretty much insured
that.

I had to let people have some insight into who you really are -
particularly as you seem to want to give them your skewd "insight" into
me.

You were a jerk for posting that exaggerated and misleeading description
of me and call me liar and you damm well know you did in that post. My
diet is not opinion about how I look. The results are backed by
objective photographiv evidence of the weight loss that you have seem.
I'm still almost 110lbs below my  weight before the diet.

But somehow, except for when you are talking about me, I always here you
saying it behind their backs.

That's why I'm calling you on it.

-kAren

Karen Elizabeth A. <k...@world.std.com> wrote:

Karen, you're wrong.  But if you want to be a jackass and state here
exactly what you believe I said and about whom, I'll respond.  But as it
stands, these are empty broadsides.  You make vague claims I said things in
scorn and ridicule; I say I didn't.  Off-hand, I don't see your credibility
as all that strong right now.

Anyway, how is this is any of this you claim different than your own
behavior?  In November, when you last got pissed off at me, you sent me a
long series of email messages recounting how "everyone" in our local
support group agrees I'm insensitive and boorish and whatever else you
could think up to insult me and you made a point of listing quite a number
specific complaints about me stated to you in private by specific
individuals.  The difference is, I'm not talking about vague stuff that may
or may not have been said in some subjective tone of voice.  I have your
messages right here on my disk.  Shall I post some of that stuff here,
blotting out these other people's identifying information just so everyone
can get a clear idea of what's going on here?
--
Nicki Hamilton
http://www.hamiltonlabs.com/biography.htm

I can't without revealing particulars about people.

Because you have lied (orconviently fotgpt some facts) I have been
totally honest aboy both my feelings and the facts.

Re-read them. I never said everybody. I'm not that close to everybody in
the group. As I stated, it was more then just one others. Again it was
to let you know that people don't see you as you see ypurself.

If you wish. I stand by everything I said. I could have been more
specific but felt it was not my place if they chose not to say anything
to your face. You HAVE been very insenitive (though not purposely so).

-Karen

-

 Then don't keep trying. The thing we have been trying to tell you is;
It's how you feel about yourself that counts.

--
Amber Thompson
ICQ#5904742
http://homepages.together.net/~msfrost/tananda.html
(Please do not link to my site without permission.)

In article <369C9A8E.BE3C4...@together.net>,
  Amber Thompson <msfr...@together.net> wrote:

That's the problem. I can not accept that. I have tried and find that it's too
important to me and I can't find a path I believe can make it happen. That's
what scares the hell out of me.

While that's certainly important, it's not the whole story. If it was, why do
so many who can woodwork or do stealth choose to do so? We are social
creatures and how we are percieved by the society we inhabit does matter a
good deal and does affect the quality of life. What the decison to transition
boils down to is overall quality of life - and that is something that only
can be defined only by the individual and their inner needs.

I seacrhed by soul over  years because I knew it would be difficult given my
physical makeup but in the end decide I had to try. When it became obvious
that things were not working I tried to convince myself I could live with
less or different results. Something in me rebelled and almost sent me over
the edge.

To me, physical passability is a prerequisite for things to be able to work.
When HRT did not give me much fat redistribution I looked for regamines that
would make it work and have gone to extreems in that area. In the last 2-3
months I've come to realize that it is now highly unlikely that any combo of
HRT will make a real differnce with over all fat redistribution.

With out that, no matter what else I do, I can never have the life I want. And
that to me is unacceptable. THAT is what I mean about running out of options.
All the other stuff can't get me all the way there and, for me, threr seems
little point to it without that possibility.

Maybe I'm totally screwed up (and many here think so), but I am not able to
accept that I can't get there and yet I see to way I can. That is causing me
my own personal hell. I freely admit it is of my own making for not being
able to accept the inevitable and move on. If I had been, I never would have
started down this path. The area that I can not get to work is the one that
taps into my deepest insecurities and is what stopped me from doing this a
decade earlier.

-Karen

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own    

In article <01be3eb9$e6b75900$0732180c@hamiltonlabs>,
  "Nicole Hamilton" <hamil...@hamiltonlabs.com> wrote:

In the name of honesty and fairness let's get something out on the table.

I'm pretty I sured you a picture of me when i was 360lbs if not then you were
not at group then. Assuming you have, can you admit that i HAVE lost a
tremenous amount weight from that picture. As it stands right nowm, Im at at
250lbs and have been at 220lbs since you've known me.

If you have not seen the pictures and I can arrange to have them shown to you
would  you be honest enought to admit that I had lost over 100lbs and that is
ample evidence of the truth about my dieting in the past?

I am very proud of being able to lose all that weight and go from a waist of
about 60inches to the low-mid 40's. Right now I'm 30 lbs less then the weight
I was at when I graduated high school, and far below any pervios weight be
for that diet in my adult life.

If you have shread of decency, you will not slander and belttle what was, for
me,  a HUGE accomplishment. You may feel I've not done enough but damm it, at
least  acknowledge what i did do.

-Karen

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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In article <77igh4$t4...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,

OK Great - so what do you want from us?  Surely the negative feedback from the
majority of has must have convinced you that we're all a little tired after a
year of this nonsense) of hearing about it?

So what more do you want from us?  Why continue this useless whining?

---------
Diane

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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In article <01be3ebb$94ce0a10$0732180c@hamiltonlabs>,
  "Nicole Hamilton" <hamil...@hamiltonlabs.com> wrote:

Very much seconded.

getting people to try to help her is part of the passive-aggressive game
she's playing.  She will deny such because she is in complete denial as to
the source of her problems (herself) and what she's doing about it  which of
course is nothing more then p/a control games.

Consider the effect that I had when I agreed with everything that she said -
she got pissed off because I wasn't playing the game properly.  She couldn't
get control by negating my siggestions because I wasn't giving her any.  At
this point I believe that , like an alcoholic, the only one who can get her to
change her ways is herself.  All I'd like is if she'd just stop playing her
stupid game and please just shut up and grow up.

---------
Diane

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Oh, okay, I see you've posted this also, so I'll just repeat what I said
privately:

It =is= a huge accomplishment.  Unfortunately, it is not enough.   I don't
know what doctor told you 180 would be unhealthy for you, but he's wrong
and you've just latched onto that as an excuse.  You need to drop at least
70 pounds from where you are, to get you at least to 180, and you need to
start some regular exercise.  Fat redistribution, body definition, whatever
you want to call it, is never, never going to come out of a needle for
anyone.  You have to lose the weight and you have to train your body to put
what's left where you want it through exercise.

You might also consider whether something like may, I dunno, dance classes
or even a modeling school (yes!  really!  one friend tells me she really
did go to modeling school during transition and it helped a lot) would help
you modify your behavior, the way you move.  There's just no delicacy at
all to your movement, how you walk, how you sit.  Take that snapshot I took
of you last week when I was playing with my digital camera at group.  I
hadn't even looked at it 'till last night but there you are, slouched back
on the couch, more as if you're lying there than sitting, sweater sort of
astray off one shoulder.  You look like a mess, which is what you always
look like.

Once again, I don't hold myself up as some great example.  I'm about as
casual as they get!  Everyone knows I dress like my only charge account is
at Goodwill.  But I'm not the one complaining that my life is so bad.

The only things I see you willing to do are the things you know you won't
have to do, e.g., because they're beyond your means, like Ousterhout.  But
there are other things, like getting your weight down, getting some
exercise, smiling, practicing how you walk and how you sit and how you wear
your clothes, and just generally expressing more interest in other people
as something other than a jumping off point to how miserable you are that
would cost you nothing.

Btw, the issue on your clothing is you are going to have to learn to pick
clothes that have more shape to make up for the lack of that in your body.
Instead of soft pastel dresses and shapeless cardigan sweaters, you should
be looking at fabrics with more texture that'll take a pleat or crease.
You're going to look better in more serious clothing, e.g., grey wools and
stuff like that.  A flimsy dress looks great on some 17-yo waif of a girl
but terrible on you.
--
Nicki Hamilton
http://www.hamiltonlabs.com/biography.htm

Karen-

If the first anti-depressant you take doesn't help-try another til you
find one that does and maybe consider adding a mood stabilizer as well.

You said you came from an alcoholic home and the incidence of mood
disorders in families with alcoholism is common.

If your shape is such a problem to you:
a) wear a fredericks padded girdle
b) learn to dress to camouflage your shape
c) have a few ribs removed
d) risk your life and get your hips shot up with silicone (not a good
option)
e)if you rib cage is large-don't get overly large implants.

Looking good isn't the total answer to stealth and happiness. A nice
looking ts is even juicier gossip when someone blabs or out-right
figures it out--and it can set off homophobic responses from men who may
have found you attractive.

I find support groups are of no benefit to me and the last thing I
personally need is to hang out with plastic surgery junkies, because it
can make my insecurities get real outta hand.

Fix the unacceptable as best you can and find things in life that make
you feel good and don't participate in the beauty pageant if it makes
you miserable. HINT: GG's don't go out accessing percentages of times
they get read---someone counting must look like a lunatic and probably
does arouse suspicion. When people say rude comments --that I have some
feature like a man--I find that if I look them straight in the eye and
say something to them acknowledging that I'm a human being and not an
object---they treat me as such.

This is perhaps yet another follow-up to your anger at Schrang for wanting
to do SRS in two stages and at life in general because some are more
fortunate than others?  Anyway, it's all relative, don't you think?  In the
eyes of most of the world, don't you imagine we're =all= plastic surgery
junkies for what we do?
--
Nicki Hamilton
http://www.hamiltonlabs.com/biography.htm

And you saw it was the same thing when I stepped "outside the script" to
point out, however politically incorrect, that she's fat because she eats
too much and doesn't always get seen as female because she acts like a guy
in drag.  At that point, the response is to get nasty and want to shift the
discussion to all of my own real or imagined flaws.

My point is that Karen enjoys using the group very selfishly, fully
expecting it's her right to abuse it any she likes but that all the rest of
us will carefully shy away from the mentioning her weight and appearance,
things you normally would never say anything about out of politeness and
social convention.

Well, too bad.  This is a support group, not a ladies' tea social, meaning
you're supposed to get better here and you're expected to be able care
enough about doing that that you'll do some of your own heavy lifting.
It's not just some place to go moan and whine but not do a little work.
--
Nicki Hamilton
http://www.hamiltonlabs.com/biography.htm