Helping TS kids
Jane
> I got a young one in Stoke-on-Trent, where ever that is, who is trying
> to survive by working in pubs.
> And she starts feeling safe, and she tells someone, and gets fired the
> next day. How is this child to go forward? I tried to find a website for
> Bass Ale, and an email address, because that was one of the owners of
> the first pub she got fired from, but i had no luck there.
http://www.bass.co.uk The leisure retail division, they are a very large
company they own over 2500 leisure related businesses.
> She's on her 3rd pub now, but god bless her, she keeps going
Her getting fired was illegal, and the company could be sued, I don't
know if she wants to do that as it might entail publicity. Maybe she'll
just have to learn to keep her mouth shut in the future.
Jane
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Jennifer Lynn
>
> http://www.bass.co.uk The leisure retail division, they are a very large
> company they own over 2500 leisure related businesses.
> Her getting fired was illegal, and the company could be sued, I don't
> know if she wants to do that as it might entail publicity.
At the time of firing she would have went for it, now she's at a place
she likes, the situation is different
> Maybe she'll just have to learn to keep her mouth shut in the future.
> Jane
And doesn't that just suck
:-(
jenny
Jane
> Jane wrote:
> > Maybe she'll just have to learn to keep her mouth shut in the future.
>
> :-(
Sometimes honesty can get you into trouble.
Sandy TS
Sandy
Jennifer Lynn
>
> Maybe she'll just learn to keep it to herself and survive.
> Sandy
And maybe someday, a stealth ts who controls a company, will provide
a job situation, where a young ts can transition on the job and not
get fired? And thereby earn the money they need to get srs.
Yea, i know "when donkey's fly!"
Jenny
Jane
> Sandy TS wrote:
> > Maybe she'll just learn to keep it to herself and survive.
>
> a job situation, where a young ts can transition on the job and not
> get fired? And thereby earn the money they need to get srs.
Why is transitioning on the job important? Your young TSs would tend to
get good hormone results and wind up looking pretty presentable, so
perhaps they might consider transitioning into a new job, it shouldn't
be a problem. That's what I did, and, although I have had no other
experience to compare it with, I suspect that it is a more pleasent
experience than transitioning on the job. You don't feel indebted to
your employers as you might otherwise, you know you can get another job
as a woman, you don't have people around you being uncofortable with
your femininity, there is no possibility of them using your old name
(because they don't know it), and you don't get pronoun slips.
RosePress
anon-...@anon.twwells.com (Jane) writes:
>Why is transitioning on the job important?
Transitioning on the job is not important. Having a job while you transition
is. Many of us prefer to make only one major life change at a time.
I transitioned on the job - in my mid-fifties - and it went very well. If they
had the patience and the willingness to put up with some rather dramatic
changes on my part, I had the patience to let them work their way through the
names and pronouns at their own speed.
Surprise! It took them about as long to transition as it took me. Depending on
one's definition, of course, of transition. I figure transition will take me
about ten years, and they got okay with the pronouns a lot faster than that.
I suspect somebody young can transition more rapidly. But youth doesn't have
the builtup financial reserves to go without a steady job; and looking for a
new job during the throes of transition just doesn't sing.
Hugs -- Ellen Rose
Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
sall...@my-dejanews.com
anon-...@anon.twwells.com (Jane) wrote:
> Jennifer Lynn <jen...@magenet.com> writes:
> > Sandy TS wrote:
> > > Maybe she'll just learn to keep it to herself and survive.
> >
> > And maybe someday, a stealth ts who controls a company, will provide
> > a job situation, where a young ts can transition on the job and not
> > get fired? And thereby earn the money they need to get srs.
>
> Why is transitioning on the job important? Your young TSs would tend to
> get good hormone results and wind up looking pretty presentable, so
> perhaps they might consider transitioning into a new job, it shouldn't
> be a problem. That's what I did, and, although I have had no other
> experience to compare it with, I suspect that it is a more pleasent
> experience than transitioning on the job. You don't feel indebted to
> your employers as you might otherwise, you know you can get another job
> as a woman, you don't have people around you being uncofortable with
> your femininity, there is no possibility of them using your old name
> (because they don't know it), and you don't get pronoun slips.
>
> Jane
Some, Jane, are not as talented as you or may not be as job mobile. As those
who have done it or have been outed for other reasons with similar effects,
transition on the job is not a fun thing. Sometimes, though, there is no
choice.
Sallyanne
sallyanne
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Jennifer Lynn
> Why is transitioning on the job important? Your young TSs would tend to
> get good hormone results and wind up looking pretty presentable, so
> perhaps they might consider transitioning into a new job, it shouldn't
> be a problem. That's what I did, and, although I have had no other
> experience to compare it with, I suspect that it is a more pleasent
> experience than transitioning on the job. You don't feel indebted to
> your employers as you might otherwise, you know you can get another job
> as a woman, you don't have people around you being uncofortable with
> your femininity, there is no possibility of them using your old name
> (because they don't know it), and you don't get pronoun slips.
> Jane
Okay, why is picking my words apart with a fine tooth comb getting to be
the sport on the usenet?
We can go with what you said, then maybe some older stealth ts who
controls a company, will give a young just transitioned ts a break and
hire them and let them earn the money they need to complete the process.
I don't care how it's done, there are smart kids out there who just need
a break
Jenny
diane...@my-dejanews.com
jen...@magenet.com wrote:
> We can go with what you said, then maybe some older stealth ts who
> controls a company, will give a young just transitioned ts a break and
> hire them and let them earn the money they need to complete the process.
On the other hand Jen, the purpose of the real life test is to ascertain
whether someone can cut as a woman in real life which would include getting
and maintaining a job. One might question if we would really be helping
someone if we "gave" them a job rather then having them get one like everyone
else. I suppose I am questioning if there is or should be a need for someone
to "give a break" to someone by way of getting them a job. If one can't get
a job then isn't that an indication that they are doing something wrong and
are going to run into problems after transition anyways? Or is there
something that I'm missing here?
---------
Diane
Natasha Fassett
Really nice post, reaallly nice.
Nice to meet you.
--
Natasha F
----------------------------------------
Let Love Dispell Hatred
----------------------------------------
kath...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<77j6uj$i8v$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <77gmh2$dni$1...@twwells.com>, anon-...@anon.twwells.com (Jane)
>wrote:
>
>> Why is transitioning on the job important?
>
>I don't see any reason why I should leave a job that I love with fabulous
>co-workers just because I'm transitioning.
>
>Kathryn
Jane
> > you know you can get another job as a woman, you don't have people
> > around you being uncofortable with your femininity, there is no
> > possibility of them using your old name (because they don't know it),
> > and you don't get pronoun slips.
>
> the sport on the usenet?
I was just trying to put forward an alternative viewpoint, there's lots
of people here who have transitioned on the job, what I have done seems
to be fairly rare, at least on this newsgroup. I'm not saying it's for
everyone, it's probably only for those who think they might be able
to pull it off, but your young TSs most often probably have the looks
to be able to pull it off. I'm 28, I started hormones when I was 26, I
don't even think I look particularly good, but I seem to get on just
fine.
> We can go with what you said, then maybe some older stealth ts who
> controls a company, will give a young just transitioned ts a break and
> hire them and let them earn the money they need to complete the process.
I sense a theme here. TSs are not very common, most people are going to
have to get employed by standard-issue people.
> I don't care how it's done, there are smart kids out there who just need
> a break
Yes, there's no easy solution I can see though, but transitioning into a
new job seems to me to be a better, more enjoyable thing to do than
transitioning on a job.
> Jenny
Jennifer Lynn
> On the other hand Jen, the purpose of the real life test is to ascertain
> whether someone can cut as a woman in real life which would include getting
> and maintaining a job. One might question if we would really be helping
> someone if we "gave" them a job rather then having them get one like everyone
> else. I suppose I am questioning if there is or should be a need for someone
> to "give a break" to someone by way of getting them a job. If one can't get
> a job then isn't that an indication that they are doing something wrong and
> are going to run into problems after transition anyways? Or is there
> something that I'm missing here?
Geeze, I'm not saying give them a 100 grand a year job. I'm talking
entrance level, let's build a carreer type job.
Why is this wrong, every sub group in the world helps their own.
Starting with the different nationalities in the past upto and including
the gays and lesbians of today. Think about WebGrrls, one of the more
popular groups of today on the internet. That was formed so women could
help out other women. Why can we help out ts kids, by giving them the
potential to make a good life for themselves?
Why is it wrong to give a helping hand?
Jenny
Anna
> Sandy TS wrote:
> >
> > Maybe she'll just learn to keep it to herself and survive.
>
> And maybe someday, a stealth ts who controls a company, will provide
> a job situation, where a young ts can transition on the job and not
Seems like you have quite down on us stealths there, Jen. So how's a
kid to know that a company is controlled by a stealth? How's a stealth
to cope with a kid who tells all and sundry? Is there any reason why
you should assume that stealths are in positions where they control
companies? I certainly don't. What's the difference who controls a
company if it provides decent jobs where people can transition? Big
companies like IBM do that already. If kids cannot transition earlier
then they need the advice on which companies might be helpful, not to be
encouraged to be resentful to people who may well have had it hard
themselves, even if they are stealth.
> Yea, i know "when donkey's fly!"
Is that the phrase where you are? Pigs are the animals here!
Anna
Jennifer Lynn
>
> Seems like you have quite down on us stealths there, Jen.
Any one of you ladies who know me want to tell her?
Okay I will, I'm stealth in real life, i'm only out on the net.
I transitioned young, stayed deep stealth most of my life, and only came
back so to speak 5 years ago, and that's when i started helping the
kids. In the 70's, i was all alone. I don't ever want todays kids to go
thru this crap all alone
> If kids cannot transition earlier
> then they need the advice on which companies might be helpful, not to be
> encouraged to be resentful to people who may well have had it hard
> themselves, even if they are stealth.
Um I do not council against being stealth, that would be hypocritical of
me. What I have been trying to form over these past couple of years is a
quiet network of sisters and brothers, who would give a helping hand to
those who would need it. I know my main focus is the kids, but i try to
help anyone.
And before anyone says put up or shut up, This December my backruptcy
became final, i got myself in 27,000 worth of credit card debt helping
ts's mainly the young ones, I went from triple a rating when i got my
internet connection to "go away"
I have a small network of women helping out quietly, I just want to
build the worlds largest network so that when I say " I got a 15 year
old in the West Midlands who's afraid to tell her parents because of
being kicked out on the streets and could really use a real life big
sister" I could have one or two people in her area to lend a hand. by
the way, i do have that child. They find me.
>
> > Yea, i know "when donkey's fly!"
> Is that the phrase where you are? Pigs are the animals here!
> Anna
Actually, i was showing my age, that was what Flo said from the TV Show
Alice, beside since Pink Floyd, pigs do fly
Jenny
diane...@my-dejanews.com
jen...@magenet.com wrote:
> Geeze, I'm not saying give them a 100 grand a year job. I'm talking
> entrance level, let's build a carreer type job.
> Why is this wrong, every sub group in the world helps their own.
Well good point but aren't we a little different in that we don't actually
know if we'll be able to integrate properly into the world in our new gender
(and many of us don't) untill we go and start the RLT. One of the really
important points in RLT is whether or not you can get and hold a job. Within
this context only I wonder how much good we do by giving someone a job rather
then allowing then to go through the process of looking on their own. After
all if they are unable to get a job isn't that a potential warning sign that
here's something wrong with the transition plan?
I also do sympathisize with the person here who posted that a stealth TS might
have some concern about the discression of a young unknown person. This could
be a very valid concern to many.
> Why can we help out ts kids, by giving them the
> potential to make a good life for themselves?
> Why is it wrong to give a helping hand?
Only what I said above. In any case I would agree that the older post-op
populace could do more in aiding in some way the younger ones among us
---------
Diane
Sandy TS
pull it off, most employers won't care if you're a trained rhinocerous.
I'm a 50 year old TS with a history of cleaning carpets and upholstery. I am
very good with people. Knowing I was in transition and that I would need a
good job, I went to school for electrolysis. Upon graduation I marketed myself
to a number of Doctors in the beauty field convincing them that a TS would be
good for their practice. It didn't take long before I landed a very good
position with a Doctor doing electrolysis on his patients at a very good salary
with benefits. Needless to say, I work as my femme self and am very respected
for what I do.
Learn something well and market yourself.
Sandy
Anna
> Anna wrote:
> >
> > Seems like you have quite down on us stealths there, Jen.
>
> Well girl you got me laughing my fool head off here :-)
> Any one of you ladies who know me want to tell her?
> Okay I will, I'm stealth in real life, i'm only out on the net.
Every one of your recent posts seems to have contained a dig at stealths
for not doing something or other. What else is one to think? You can
have a down even if you are one yourself. I'm touchy on it - I just got
the rough end of someone who clearly hates stealths and I'm powerless to
do anything about it.
> I transitioned young, stayed deep stealth most of my life, and only came
> back so to speak 5 years ago, and that's when i started helping the
> kids. In the 70's, i was all alone. I don't ever want todays kids to go
> thru this crap all alone
I never doubted that. But it seems an impossibly large task to set
oneself. If only one _could_ right one of the world's many wrongs...
> I have a small network of women helping out quietly, I just want to
> build the worlds largest network so that when I say " I got a 15 year
> old in the West Midlands who's afraid to tell her parents because of
> being kicked out on the streets and could really use a real life big
> sister" I could have one or two people in her area to lend a hand. by
> the way, i do have that child. They find me.
There was an organisation in Britain which promoted the first
professional conference on TSism, and then tried to counsel and refer
TSs on to the few medics that were around. This was a charity set up by
the Campaign for Homosexual Law Reform, and which decided to enlarge
it's remit once that reform was in part achieved. But the trustees got
cold feet about TSs after a while and cut the resources, but the demand
rose... However, their social worker was qualified, and very kind,
although not good under overwhelming pressure, and they had all these
qualified and unqualified counsellors and contacts around the country
(some in local social services, some homosexual, some TG). And
eventually they were of value to me. I sort of assume that some sort of
successor group exists here, especially in view of there being various
TS and TG founded charities and groups. I know that more than one has a
network of local contacts evidenced through the WWW. It may not be
totally ideal but I would suggest that "kids" who are legally of age
(18) contact those groups. They'd have local contacts, and most
confidentiality issues would be understood. Not all, mind you - I've
just been rejected by the largest TS group because I cannot reveal my
real name and postal address to the 20-30 or their inner circle whom
I've never met and cannot blindly trust.
However, I'm quite prepared to believe that real, under-age kids may not
be served by any of those. The case of the 15 year-old you mention is
really tricky because parents could initiate action against any adult
who seemed in any way to be leading their kid astray. OK, anon net
addresses can help there, but the police might be involved and could use
all sorts of tricks. What is needed is a registered social worker
(that's someone certified and who has legal standing). Really there
needs to be a counselling organisation or group with such a person (or
several) on tap, which could then handle such contacts in full knowledge
of the law, and with access to official resources. It is just possible
of course that one of the TS/TG organisations may already be kitted up
like that - there might well be TS people who are qualified.
As it happens, my partner _is_ a registered (for England and Wales)
social worker, although she works in a totally different field now, but
I've asked her thoughts on this (and it applies to any kid under 18
whose parents are not supportive, at least not yet)... She says that
the kid should approach social services locally (in the phone book),
before telling the parents, if she's so much in fear. Social services
have a duty to help the kid mediate problems with parents, and to
provide care and protection if the parents react adversely. They can do
that better with warning, but if a kid is just ejected, or flees in
fear, any police officer, but certainly the desk at any police station,
will get a kid straight into the hands of social services for a
_place_of_safety_. There are council-run homes (which might not be
totally pleasant in every way) but usually, today, councils' social
service departments put a kid straight into an ordinary home with
"foster parents", usually picked to be able to handle whatever
background the kid has, even in the middle of the night. Social
services then try to get the kid and parents reconciled, but if that is
impossible then they care for the kid to 18, and help make arrangements
for later. Theoretically that care should include, since there is a
children's GID clinic in the UK, the kid getting treatment there.
That's the theory, and to some extent also the law. The flaw is that
she doesn't know how clued up social workers now are about TSism. When
she was actively involved they were not at all. They (and many police
forces) are fairly clued up about L&G kids, and there is a whole
organisation for L&G social workers, but then _we_ know that gays _can_
be the most non-comprehending about TSs... There have been several
stories of young TSs in council homes in past years being left to please
themselves, since they were completely out of the experience of the
resident social workers, and it leading straight to prostitution and/or
drugs. The young woman currently starring as a real-life prostitute in
'Paddington Green' was herself a foster child... Budgets are tight...
There are so few TS kids around for social workers to have experience
of... We don't know if anything has even appeared in social work
journals on how to handle them... Then there is the issue of what sort
of suitable foster parents social services might find for a TS kid; if
the info put out on legal issues by Press for Change is credible then no
TS is likely to be allowed to be a foster parent.... Placement with a
gay couple might be a disaster... If it has not already been researched
then someone needs to do it. And I'd guess the same needs doing in
every country...
I have also mailed you privately.
Jennifer Lynn
> It's like the guy who was throwing the beached starfish back into the
> sea. He'd never be able to throw all of them back, but it made a big
> difference to the ones he did throw back.
> Jenny has a Don Quiote complex, IMO, but there are a lot worse things
> to have.
Damn, you got my song, I like that song so much, i even liked it when
Sam did it on Quantum Leap.
:-)
Jenny Quixote
"Always reach for the Stars"
>
> It is the mission of each true knight...
> His duty... nay, his privilege!
> To dream the impossible dream,
> To fight the unbeatable foe,
> To bear with unbearable sorrow
> To run where the brave dare not go;
> To right the unrightable wrong.
>
> To love, pure and chaste, from afar,
> To try, when your arms are too weary,
> To reach the unreachable star!
>
> This is my Quest to follow that star,
> No matter how hopeless, no matter how far,
> To fight for the right
> Without question or pause,
> To be willing to march into hell
> For a heavenly cause!
>
> And I know, if I'll only be true
> To this glorious Quest,
> That my heart will lie peaceful and calm
> When I'm laid to my rest.
>
> And the world will be better for this,
> That one man, scorned and covered with scars,
> Still strove, with his last ounce of courage,
> To reach the unreachable stars!
>
> --Michelle
>
Amber Thompson
I have always loved that song, I missed my one chance to see "Man of
La Mancha". It was on a n airplane, and to hear it you needed
headphones, and I didn't have the money to rent one.
--
Amber Thompson
ICQ#5904742
http://homepages.together.net/~msfrost/tananda.html
(Please do not link to my site without permission.)
Amber Thompson
>
> In article <36A0F2C3...@together.net>, Amber Thompson
> <msf...@together.net> wrote:
>
> > I have always loved that song, I missed my one chance to see "Man of
> > La Mancha". It was on a n airplane, and to hear it you needed
> > headphones, and I didn't have the money to rent one.
>
I've never been able to find it.
Anna
> > controls a company, will give a young just transitioned ts a break and
>
> On the other hand Jen, the purpose of the real life test is to ascertain
> whether someone can cut as a woman in real life which would include
> getting and maintaining a job. One might question if we would
> really be helping someone if we "gave" them a job rather then having them
> get one like everyone else. I suppose I am questioning if there is or
> should be a need for someone to "give a break" to someone by way of
> getting them a job. If one can't get a job then isn't that an indication
> that they are doing something wrong and are going to run into problems
> after transition anyways? Or is there something that I'm missing here?
Well, I'd guess that what you are missing is that other teens and very
early twenties don't all have to go out and get a job without any help,
and probably without contacts, references or qualifications. People
often have family contacts, or school friends who give them leads or
intros. Kids straight out of education get guidance, and maybe even
recruited at college job fairs or on the "milkround", as it is called
here at the universities. And they'll have a wardrobe of clothes from
over the years, and people to guide them as to what to wear or say at
interviews or in thier first weeks, or friends who have gone, or are
going through the same thing. I guess Jen would like her kids to have
just a few less disadvantages in comparison.
Actually I sympathise a lot. RLT in my time wasn't counted if one was a
student, so going back to study was ruled out on yet another score. I
applied for the one opportunity I'd always wanted to follow as a woman,
and had sort of uniquely prepared myself for, and got shafted with
sex-discrimination, from a woman personnel officer. That totally threw
me (for an instant I cursed myself for having dressed and made-up too
smartly for the interview, but then I realised it had been pre-planned)
and blighted my career for years. OTOH, it sent me straight (well,
actually I waited until a few months after SRS, for ethical reasons) in
search of whoever might be trying to stop the sex-discrimination, and we
got the law changed 2 years later. But by not bending to their will
(they offered me a specified top secretary's job if I returned within a
month with shorthand on top of my existent typing and accounts skills,
whereas I was trying to get on their unique professional training
scheme, which turned out to be quietly reserved for men; and they had
planned it thoroughly by witholding the application form from me until
the interview, which they had delayed for 5 weeks, and revealing at that
point that the closing date was the previous day, and that I would be
excluded by age the next year) I put myself on a secret (until the
papers revealed it in the 1980s) blacklist of "feminists" and similar,
whereby not a single one of the more than 200 applications I put in for
specific vacancies over the next 15 years ever resulted in an interview,
though I would have been initially so welcome as a top exec's secretary,
and their branches were happy to use me on contract as I cobbled
together a training from evening classes and similar. A helping hand
with the right advice at that crucial point would have done me just so
much good. As it was, none of my mentors, or any one in my family, had
ever faced discrimination like that, so no one told me to suspect it, or
how to deal with it. An elder sister might have. Fortunately my Psych
listened to what happened to me and accepted my life as RLT.
sall...@my-dejanews.com
Anna wrote in message <77s4nn$m7n$1...@twwells.com>...
>diane...@my-dejanews.com replied:
>> In article <77ijj0$14t$1...@news-2.news.gte.net>,
>> jen...@magenet.com wrote:
>> > We can go with what you said, then maybe some older stealth ts who
>> > controls a company, will give a young just transitioned ts a break and
>> > hire them and let them earn the money they need to complete the process.
>>
>> On the other hand Jen, the purpose of the real life test is to ascertain
>> whether someone can cut as a woman in real life which would include
>> getting and maintaining a job. One might question if we would
>> really be helping someone if we "gave" them a job rather then having them
>> get one like everyone else. I suppose I am questioning if there is or
>> should be a need for someone to "give a break" to someone by way of
>> getting them a job. If one can't get a job then isn't that an indication
>> that they are doing something wrong and are going to run into problems
>> after transition anyways? Or is there something that I'm missing here?
>
>Well, I'd guess that what you are missing is that other teens and very
>early twenties don't all have to go out and get a job without any help,
>and probably without contacts, references or qualifications. ...
>... I guess Jen would like her kids to have
Anna, thank you for sharing this. A woman in a group to which I belong
shared something very similar with the younger women on that list. The
descrimination which fell upon working women in the sixties, seventies and,
eighties simply is nonexistant in much of the world today. It is still
there, however.
Even though I've had advantages of education, contacts and what some may call
"male privilege" (that is very much passed, believe me) through much of my
life, I can very clearly sympathize with you and the case you have presented.
The kids do have a difficult time finding jobs. In this fast becoming world
of intangible products and office automation there are fewer and fewer entry
level jobs open for anyone. Sexual discrimination and male perogative exist
today, though not at the level once experienced. We still hear, "I didn't
think _you_ would have been interested in _that_" promoition, or opporutnity
or whatever. We still have to break down doors to enter or try to climb in an
unbarred back entryway if we want to share some of the economic benefits
which generally go to the men today.
They do need mentoring, I think. Most younger people, espeically younger
women, whether they are ts or not, find it difficult to develop networks of
mentors, colleagues and friends who can simply help. When we add the
difficulties of transition to the mix, it becomes more important.
In another thread here, we see discussions among older adults about
deportment, apprpopriate clothing and actions. I wonder just how many who
have found these great difficulties in getting a first job involved passing
or lack of specific education needed for the position?
Regardless, it is not as easy for a woman to enter the job market, especially
in the higher paying areas, because of the insidious remanents of
discrimination.
Sallyanne