In article <77s09e$sl...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, jafran...@my-dejanews.com wrote: > In article <77qi6d$nu...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, > sallya...@my-dejanews.com wrote: > > Kristine wrote in message > > <6086A294E314C03D.7652580DE15FD1A0.841A01C7B1AB2F57@library- > > proxy.airnews.net>... > If you don't get a psychological reward from spending 30 minutes working on > your appearance in the morning because of all the people calling you "Ma'am" > all day, or from the 5 hours a week practicing voice and body language, you > may want to =very= seriously consider whether or not you are actually > transsexual. I would argue that anyone who sabotages their transition by > failing to recognize the flaws in their presentation needs to identify the > specific issues which lead them to believe they are the wrong sex. The > answer "but I just know it" is far too simplistic in light of self-defeating > behavior.
*sigh*
Again with this...
Ask GGs someday how much they like having to take 30 minutes on their appearance! Sure they may like the results, but I doubt very many like the fact that they feel they have to do so much to get the look. Would you say that a GG who decides not to specifically style her hair or decides one day not to put on make up has "flaws" in her presentation? Would you question that maybe she's FtM and doesn't know it?
...I didn't think so.
Obviously MtF's need at least a makeup job to hide a beard if it's not electro-removed, and FtM's with significant breast growth need to bind them, but other than that, should we really have to worry that much about our presentation? We're men and women, not streotypes of them!
When I see myself in my mind, I am female. I self-identify as a woman. That is how I know I *am* a woman, despite the fact that my body is male.
--Emi
-- Emi Briet -- Adecco's kawaii tempie-chan! ^_^ Keep hot water with you at all times!
RC[1.0]: r+(+) R!++ AG HS x++ SP Du+ m+ mu++ E:#transgen H F:+ a26 d+ s-: NA x Sch:CS,BA L:E m+ M w++ N,IE
Emi Melissa Briet wrote in message ... >Ask GGs someday how much they like having to take 30 minutes on their >appearance! Sure they may like the results, but I doubt very many like the >fact that they feel they have to do so much to get the look. Would you >say that a GG who decides not to specifically style her hair or decides >one day not to put on make up has "flaws" in her presentation? Would you >question that maybe she's FtM and doesn't know it?
>Obviously MtF's need at least a makeup job to hide a beard if it's not >electro-removed, and FtM's with significant breast growth need to bind >them, but other than that, should we really have to worry that much about >our presentation? We're men and women, not streotypes of them!
>When I see myself in my mind, I am female. I self-identify as a woman. >That is how I know I *am* a woman, despite the fact that my body is male.
This was the entire point of my post. It IS a hassle, but one that is many women (TG and cis) go through everyday. It has nothing to do with "beard cover" or anything specifically TG related. You have posted elsewhere that you're not particularly concered with whether you "pass." This is fine for you, and it probably would be quite helpful to Karen if you shared with her how you came to that end.
I know, for myself, I don't go through the process to seek acceptance from other women as a psychological "prop" for my own identity as a woman. I make great attempts to "pass" in order to avoid grief from others; I want others to see what's in my mind. I'm not a hermit; I'm a social animal and want to move successfully through this world as a woman. For me, it means giving more than nodding acknowledgement to the stereotypical conventions of "womanhood" society dictates. For me, it helped make my transition into unquestioned womanhood achievable.
I rue the day when society determines that "attention to one's appearance" becomed a character flaw.
> Ask GGs someday how much they like having to take 30 minutes on their > appearance! Sure they may like the results, but I doubt very many like > the fact that they feel they have to do so much to get the look.
Women do not _need_ to use makeup to proclaim their sex however, they will be accepted as female with or without makeup.
> Would you say that a GG who decides not to specifically style her hair > or decides one day not to put on make up has "flaws" in her > presentation? Would you question that maybe she's FtM and doesn't > know it?
Well her mother might complain - her friends might ask if she is depressed or admonish her to "fix herself up" and pay attention to her appearance. This is especially true of women who are attractive - they certainly do not need to use makeup or wear dresses to establish their sex identity but there is often social preasure for them to conform. This is a different dynamic than that facing _most_ m2f TSs.
>Obviously MtF's need at least a makeup job to hide a beard if it's not >electro-removed, and FtM's with significant breast growth need to bind >them, but other than that, should we really have to worry that much >about our presentation? We're men and women, not streotypes of them!
So that's it? A little makeup for M2Fs, some breast binding for FtMs? It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself because if you:
>When I see myself in my mind, I am female. I self-identify as a >woman. That is how I know I *am* a woman, despite the fact that my >body is male.
then you would not need to hide your beard. I think it entails a great deal more than just the acquisition of female aspect - but that is a definite starting point if you have been socialized as a male and have a male body. For whatever reason, M2F TSs want female bodies and female social acceptance. You may see yourself as any number of identities in your mind but humans are social creatures and the way that other people see you is a part of your identity too.
I can't help but to perceive your assertion that you *are* a woman, despite your male body, as an expression of delusion or male privledge. If you go to a girl's bar will you be perceived as a butch lesbian, a man or a transsexual? It is a bit paradoxical but you would need to be _very_ feminine as an M2F to be accepted as a butch lesbian or lesbian at all. I consider acceptance by lesbians to be pretty much the acid test for "passing". :-)
I've only written here once or twice. I use a friends computer. Next month I am 20 years post-op. I had surgery at 17 at Hopkins GIC in 1977 and transitioned when I was 14 YO.
Deni
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> Obviously MtF's need at least a makeup job to hide a beard if it's not > electro-removed, and FtM's with significant breast growth need to bind > them, but other than that, should we really have to worry that much about > our presentation? We're men and women, not streotypes of them!
I find that if I spend some time making myself look neat:
1. People are nicer to me, and more polite to me.
2. I pass all the time as far as I can tell.
It may be a hastle, but it makes my life more pleasent.
Some people at my support group dress like scarecrows, they get a lot more day-to-day problems (getting read etc) than I get.
Jane
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> >Obviously MtF's need at least a makeup job to hide a beard if it's not > >electro-removed, and FtM's with significant breast growth need to bind > >them, but other than that, should we really have to worry that much > >about our presentation? We're men and women, not streotypes of them!
> So that's it? A little makeup for M2Fs, some breast binding for FtMs? > It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself because if you:
> >When I see myself in my mind, I am female. I self-identify as a > >woman. That is how I know I *am* a woman, despite the fact that my > >body is male.
> then you would not need to hide your beard. I think it entails a great > deal more than just the acquisition of female aspect - but that is a > definite starting point if you have been socialized as a male and have > a male body. For whatever reason, M2F TSs want female bodies and > female social acceptance. You may see yourself as any number of > identities in your mind but humans are social creatures and the way > that other people see you is a part of your identity too.
The point I was trying to make there is that, yes, I admit that to a point, we do need to do a few minimal things to help others perceive us as who we know we are....but giving so-called 'advice' of how to eat, how to walk, etc, I think is going rather overboard. It could end up causing people to act too feminine or too masculine, and that, IMHO, could lead actually to being more EASILY read! I saw a documentary story once on an MtF who transitioned at work, and started wearing dresses to work, and many of the workers she was with had remarked that she seemed to be trying TOO hard (as it was a casual office, and most of the other women wore shirts and jeans).
I'm just trying to keep people from going overboard in their new gender roles, is all.
> If you go to a girl's bar will you be perceived as a butch > lesbian, a man or a transsexual? It is a bit paradoxical but you would > need to be _very_ feminine as an M2F to be accepted as a butch > lesbian or lesbian at all. I consider acceptance by lesbians to be > pretty much the acid test for "passing". :-)
Actually, every weekend, I go to a club in St. Paul whose clientele is mostly lesbian, and they accept me just fine (a few have even hit on me). If you consider that the acid test, then I guess that I can "pass" by your definition. =). I'm not butch by any sense of the word, but I also want MtF's to know that they do have the right to be that way.
--Emi
-- Emi Briet -- Adecco's kawaii tempie-chan! ^_^ Keep hot water with you at all times!
RC[1.0]: r+(+) R!++ AG HS x++ SP Du+ m+ mu++ E:#transgen H F:+ a26 d+ s-: NA x Sch:CS,BA L:E m+ M w++ N,IE
> I can't help but to perceive your assertion that you *are* a woman, > despite your male body, as an expression of delusion or male > privledge.
I made the assertion simply because the post I was replying to stated that if you don't get a psychological thrill out of making yourself up, then you should re-evaluate your reasons for transition.
I thought that was a load of bunk, so I gave the assertion as a rundown of the basic reasons why I'm transitioning.
--Emi
-- Emi Briet -- Adecco's kawaii tempie-chan! ^_^ Keep hot water with you at all times!
RC[1.0]: r+(+) R!++ AG HS x++ SP Du+ m+ mu++ E:#transgen H F:+ a26 d+ s-: NA x Sch:CS,BA L:E m+ M w++ N,IE
> > Obviously MtF's need at least a makeup job to hide a beard if it's not > > electro-removed, and FtM's with significant breast growth need to bind > > them, but other than that, should we really have to worry that much about > > our presentation? We're men and women, not streotypes of them!
> I find that if I spend some time making myself look neat:
> 1. People are nicer to me, and more polite to me.
> 2. I pass all the time as far as I can tell.
> It may be a hastle, but it makes my life more pleasent.
> Some people at my support group dress like scarecrows, they get a lot > more day-to-day problems (getting read etc) than I get.
I get read a lot too, but I don't let it bug me...and the vast majority of those who do read me don't care that I'm TS and accept me for who I am anyway. If you choose to put as much effort into it as you do, then fine. But the point I'm trying to make is one shouldn't *have* to if she doesn't want to. There are some days where I get myself made up all nice (like if I'm going to work at the office or going out somewhere), and there are some days where I just throw on a coat of foundation and go (like if I'm just running to the store to pick up a few things). We shouldn't let the way we walk/talk/dress/etc define just how much of a woman we are.
Would I rather everyone see me as a woman? Of course! What MtF wouldn't? But the reality that most MtF's have to face is that we won't pass all the time no matter how much effort we put into it (and putting TOO MUCH effort into it causes one to be more easily read). So with this reality fact, I'm happy to be accepted as a person in general, even if those who accept me know that I'm TS.
--Emi
-- Emi Briet -- Adecco's kawaii tempie-chan! ^_^ Keep hot water with you at all times!
RC[1.0]: r+(+) R!++ AG HS x++ SP Du+ m+ mu++ E:#transgen H F:+ a26 d+ s-: NA x Sch:CS,BA L:E m+ M w++ N,IE
Emi Melissa Briet wrote in message ... >The point I was trying to make there is that, yes, I admit that to a >point, we do need to do a few minimal things to help others perceive us as >who we know we are....but giving so-called 'advice' of how to eat, how to >walk, etc, I think is going rather overboard. It could end up causing >people to act too feminine or too masculine, and that, IMHO, could lead >actually to being more EASILY read! I saw a documentary story once on an >MtF who transitioned at work, and started wearing dresses to work, and >many of the workers she was with had remarked that she seemed to be trying >TOO hard (as it was a casual office, and most of the other women wore >shirts and jeans).
Everyone has just been suggesting what works for them. We all find our own comfortable balance.
I remember the show you are talking about -- "Transformation." It was obvious to Gabi's coworkers (and to us) that she was "trying too hard." That was at the beginning of her transition, though. She had a long way to go! She had numerous facial surgeries, took dance lessons, etc. But did you see her at the end of the program, where she was sitting on the park bench sketching? She toned down a lot of the exaggeration and looked more natural in her movements and appearance. BUT -- how would she have gotten to that point without going through the first stage? She needed to learn the repertoire before she could fine-tune it to her style.
>I'm just trying to keep people from going overboard in their new gender >roles, is all.
One person's "overboard" is another person's "swimming."
> I remember the show you are talking about -- "Transformation." It was > obvious to Gabi's coworkers (and to us) that she was "trying too hard." > That was at the beginning of her transition, though. She had a long way to > go! She had numerous facial surgeries, took dance lessons, etc. But did > you see her at the end of the program, where she was sitting on the park > bench sketching? She toned down a lot of the exaggeration and looked more > natural in her movements and appearance. BUT -- how would she have gotten > to that point without going through the first stage? She needed to learn > the repertoire before she could fine-tune it to her style.
Actually, I hadn't seen the end of it, but the part I saw was shown in a clip in a Gender health conference I attended back in October. If that eventually worked for her, then good for her.
-- Emi Briet -- Adecco's kawaii tempie-chan! ^_^ Keep hot water with you at all times!
RC[1.0]: r+(+) R!++ AG HS x++ SP Du+ m+ mu++ E:#transgen H F:+ a26 d+ s-: NA x Sch:CS,BA L:E m+ M w++ N,IE
> > Obviously MtF's need at least a makeup job to hide a beard if it's not > > electro-removed, and FtM's with significant breast growth need to bind > > them, but other than that, should we really have to worry that much about > > our presentation? We're men and women, not streotypes of them!
> Yes, and. Society, like it or not, will use stereotypes of all sorts to > determine our gender. Do you think it horribly unfair that society has a > "stereotype" which says that women have high voices, hairfree faces, graceful > body language, etc.? Or do you think that M2F women should just be able to > say "I'm a woman. Treat me as such because I'm not a stereotype."?
technically, in an ideal world, we should.
But read back...I do admit that *some* effort is needed at least in order to be accepted.
--Emi
-- Emi Briet -- Adecco's kawaii tempie-chan! ^_^ Keep hot water with you at all times!
RC[1.0]: r+(+) R!++ AG HS x++ SP Du+ m+ mu++ E:#transgen H F:+ a26 d+ s-: NA x Sch:CS,BA L:E m+ M w++ N,IE
In article <77tlbu$9u...@twwells.com>, anon-12...@anon.twwells.com (Jane) writes: > emiofb...@earthlink.net (Emi Melissa Briet) writes: > > Obviously MtF's need at least a makeup job to hide a beard if it's not > > electro-removed, and FtM's with significant breast growth need to bind > > them, but other than that, should we really have to worry that much about > > our presentation? We're men and women, not streotypes of them!
> I find that if I spend some time making myself look neat:
> 1. People are nicer to me, and more polite to me.
> 2. I pass all the time as far as I can tell.
> It may be a hastle, but it makes my life more pleasent.
> Some people at my support group dress like scarecrows, they get a lot > more day-to-day problems (getting read etc) than I get.
> Jane
Jane is right. Take the trouble. "Pride must abide". If you cant wear "Dolche & Gabbana" you could at least try Dorothy Perkins!
Stephie.
P.S. OK, I sound like a miserable old bat on the Internet ... but in person? Whoa! Who's your weird mate, then? Byeee!
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