Kindergarten Stuff
Nicol
doesn't want to go, and just generally doesn't like it. I've been looking
at the papers coming home, and I can't say I blame him. One of the "math"
worksheets (I have a huge problem with worksheets for children, but that is
another issue) asked students to identify objects on top, in the middle, in
between, and on the bottom. Another one asked students to circle objects on
the left and on the right in different colors. Activities in class include
teaching children the letters of the alphabet and the sounds of each letter
(no combinations thus far), and colors of objects.
All of this, to me, seems really remedial. Andrew has known his colors
since he was at least three years old, knows top from bottom and in between,
knows right from left, and knows the alphabet (uppercase and lower) and
their sounds. He was doing more challenging things in preschool last year!
I don't think Andrew is "advanced" or anything...he is normal academically
(although, of course, he is extraordinary to me).
Is this curriculum what your children experienced in Kindergarten? Is it
normal to teach these things in K? I'm not really sure if this school
allows children to move up, or if Andrew is really ready to move up to the
first grade or not, but I also don't want him to hate school right from the
start.
Any suggestions? Experience?
Thanks,
Nicol
Ms Tigerlily
I have to agree with you on the kindergarten curriculum in general.
But remember, SOME kids don't go to preschool at all, and have virtually
no contact with school, being away from their parents or being around
other children until they are sent to kindergarten. So they've got to
start at the bottom, getting used to the whole social skills thing with
all the rules in addition to the curriculum.
So I think they tend to start off pretty simple in kindergarten. Perhaps
there is a different class that teaches things in a more "fun" way, or
he could focus on how fun recess, socializing and field trips are. My
kids would have gone to kindergarten *JUST* for recess time!
some...@my-dejanews.com
> Nicol wrote:
> >
> > My son has been in Kindergarten for a few weeks now. He's already bored,
> > doesn't want to go, and just generally doesn't like it. I've been looking
> > at the papers coming home, and I can't say I blame him. One of the "math"
> > worksheets (I have a huge problem with worksheets for children, but that is
> > another issue) asked students to identify objects on top, in the middle, in
> > between, and on the bottom. Another one asked students to circle objects on
> > the left and on the right in different colors. Activities in class include
> > teaching children the letters of the alphabet and the sounds of each letter
> > (no combinations thus far), and colors of objects.
> >
> > All of this, to me, seems really remedial. Andrew has known his colors
> > since he was at least three years old, knows top from bottom and in between,
> > knows right from left, and knows the alphabet (uppercase and lower) and
> > their sounds. He was doing more challenging things in preschool last year!
> > I don't think Andrew is "advanced" or anything...he is normal academically
> > (although, of course, he is extraordinary to me).
> >
> > Is this curriculum what your children experienced in Kindergarten? Is it
> > normal to teach these things in K? I'm not really sure if this school
> > allows children to move up, or if Andrew is really ready to move up to the
> > first grade or not, but I also don't want him to hate school right from the
> > start.
> >
> > Any suggestions? Experience?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Nicol
My son was pretty bored in kindergarten too.
My first suggestion is to go talk with the teacher. Ask her (I'll assume
it's a woman) what you and she can together do to help Andrew. Also, ask
Andrew what things they do in school that he likes and pass this information
on to the teacher.
It's still early in the term and the teacher is probably still figuring out
who knows what so she may not realize what Andrew thinks and will appreciate
some feedback as long as you aren't accusing about it. Tell her what
things Andrew likes to do and perhaps she can arrange things so sometimes
he is a bit of a leader in doing those things.
My son had a rough kindergarten year - he was really acting out - it seemed
a somewhat delayed response to our separation/divorce. I think that's just
a lousy age, frankly. His classroom had a number of things they could play
with at certain times and he was heavily into building things with K'nex that
year so we donated a rather large set of K'nex to his class (after asking
the teacher if this was okay). He was (and is) absolutely expert at building
things with those and the other kids soon learned that and would ask him
to build them things and he would really shine there.
You could try explaining to Andrew that the teacher is just making sure
that everyone knows those things, since some kids might not, and there are
probably plenty of interesting things that they will be doing during the
year (ask the teacher what you can tell Andrew that he'll look forward to).
Good luck.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Robbin Spoonamore Hubbard
<snip>
> Is this curriculum what your children experienced in Kindergarten? Is it
> normal to teach these things in K? I'm not really sure if this school
> allows children to move up, or if Andrew is really ready to move up to the
> first grade or not, but I also don't want him to hate school right from the
> start.
>
> Any suggestions? Experience?
Nicol,
Could it be that the curriculum for this particular kindergarten *is*
remedial by necessity? I was similarly shocked when my daughter first
went off to school and had what I thought was a substandard learning
experience. Silly me, I didn't think it *mattered* which of the public
schools she attended; I figured they had to teach the same things (this
is a good example of why NOT to start having kids when you're 19 ;-) )
Anyway, this school was largely populated by children from families in
the lower socioeconomic classes and many of them came to kindergarten
ill prepared for the traditional kindergarten experience.
Some teachers are prepared to give extra attention to children who are
either far ahead or far behind the rest of the class. Some schools
support that diversity and others don't. I would definitely suggest
trying to talk to Andrew's teacher, but also find out whether the
culture of the school will support his learning style throughout
elementary. If not, this could be a battle that you'll have to re-fight
with a different teacher every year. That wasn't something I wanted to
do, so I just moved to a different school district - THIS time, after
doing some research. I've never regretted it.
----
Robbin Spoonamore Hubbard
http://php.indiana.edu/~rmhubbar
Julie
We had a similar experience when Josh was in kindergarten and first grade, but
after having a conference w/the teacher, she responded by making him a "teacher's
assistant". That mean that once his work was completed, he was the one who
collected papers, helped others that were having difficulty, set up the computers
in the lab, etc. He was required to complete the same work and would then be
given something more challenging if he finished far ahead of the others. It
really opened her up to looking at the levels of *all* the kids. During those two
years, she always had special projects ready for those who were a little further
ahead for which they could earn "extra credit", or jobs that they could help her
with. Maybe your
It really saved us, I think. We've had some minor issues with this since, even in
high school, but overall he has a good attitude toward school and tolerance for
others that may keep the class in an area he feels ready to move out of. He's now
in the IB program and doing very well and feeling that he's at the right level in
terms of being realistic and challenging at the same time.
Set up a conference with Andrew's teacher and see if she's willing to be flexible
and have things for him that will challenge him more and hold his interest. And
maybe she does have some small jobs for him to help her with. They see that as
such an honor at his age! One other thing some of Josh's teachers have done is
find out his interests and assign an extra credit project that involved that
topic. He's done more research on the Civil War than I could do in a year
full-time! The fact that it's always been of interest to him really made him
excited about the projects.
I was never too excited about the idea of moving him forward, because he would
have been out of his age group, and because to push the academics to the
exclusion of the social aspects of school can be a problem, too, IMO.
Good luck, Nicol.
Julie
darl...@hotmail.com
being important for the social aspects. He already knew everything they were
teaching. I would give him more advanced stuff to do when he got home. He was
always the teachers helper, correcting papers and stuff.
In first grade it got to be more of a problem as he was there all day. I
pleaded with the teacher to give him more advanced work like multiplication.
She had him coloring in little boxes in patterns, calling it multiplication.
(1st page-color every 2nd box...2nd page-color every 3rd box....etc...10 pages
with 100 boxes each) No wonder he was bored. She had him correcting papers for
not only his class, but the other 1st grade classes as well. When I saw the
pages with the colored boxes (that was not completed) I was shocked to see
about 200 staples in it. The teacher had to quickly get them all out so she
could show it to me. I knew there was a big problem.
That's when I decided to take him out and homeschool him. I was afraid he
would end up hating to learn as it was associated with school. I homeschooled
him for half of first and all of second grade. It was really a lot of fun
homeschooling him. I didn't need to make him do many assignments. We spent
most of the time reading all the classics...Mobey Dick, Huck Finn, Journey to
the center of the Earth....lots of books. We still did other school work for
the writing aspect of it, but not as nuch. Reading and talking about what was
read, can cover most other subjects.
I wanted him to go back for 3rd grade, but he was uneasy with that. So we
made a deal that he would try it for one quarter. Then we would decide
whether or not to take him out. Luckily he had very good teachers in 3rd, 4th
& 5th. They all were challenged to challenge him.
Now his 6th grade teacher is a let down to him. His teacher has had one year
previous experience teaching, and that was 3rd grade level. I think that lack
of experience is showing through to my son. I hope he gets through this year
without losing his love for learning. But since he is older, I'm sure it will
be OK. I don't have the option of homeschooling him for the upper grades (it's
more than I know).
The reason my school gave me as to why they don't move children up a grade
was money. They get a certain amount of money from the state for each child,
each year they are in school. Moving him up a grade would result in them
losing that money for that year. Since they have it all budgeted out for
years in advance, it would be harming their budget. Well they lost it anyway
by my homeschooling:)
Darlin'62
"Nicol" <stages...@email.msn.com> wrote:
> My son has been in Kindergarten for a few weeks now. He's already bored,
> doesn't want to go, and just generally doesn't like it. I've been looking
> at the papers coming home, and I can't say I blame him. One of the "math"
> worksheets (I have a huge problem with worksheets for children, but that is
> another issue) asked students to identify objects on top, in the middle, in
> between, and on the bottom. Another one asked students to circle objects on
> the left and on the right in different colors. Activities in class include
> teaching children the letters of the alphabet and the sounds of each letter
> (no combinations thus far), and colors of objects.
>
> All of this, to me, seems really remedial. Andrew has known his colors
> since he was at least three years old, knows top from bottom and in between,
> knows right from left, and knows the alphabet (uppercase and lower) and
> their sounds. He was doing more challenging things in preschool last year!
> I don't think Andrew is "advanced" or anything...he is normal academically
> (although, of course, he is extraordinary to me).
>
> Is this curriculum what your children experienced in Kindergarten? Is it
> normal to teach these things in K? I'm not really sure if this school
> allows children to move up, or if Andrew is really ready to move up to the
> first grade or not, but I also don't want him to hate school right from the
> start.
>
> Any suggestions? Experience?
>
> Thanks,
> Nicol
Peter F. DeMos
> kindergarten and even grade 1 are not treated with any respect.
and...
> kids are in kindergarten treated as "non readers" and it really is
> just playing around.
I disagree, with this entire thread.
> There will be many that will disagree.
Oh? Who? Hehehehe.
> But I feel that in kindergarten, academics should start.
and...
> For my daughter, the first years were spent in private school. She started
> learning to read when she was barely 4.
I don't know where those involved in this thread are located, exactly, but
I'm in San Diego Ca. Ca is supposedly one of the lowest rated states in
the nation for schooling. But. I have been reading to, and teaching my
daughters how to read, since they were each 2+. Jess is now in 1st grade,
after one year of teaching in kindergarten. She was, and remains,
enthralled. With the whole process. She's never displayed boredom at
school, only excitement at the prospect of another day there. Learning is
a joy to her, and it's obvious. First thing she does upon arrival at home
is her homework. With diligence and care.
I think it has helped for me to be involved in the school, there a lot,
and praising those around her in charge. She has a healthy respect for all
involved. I don't focus on whether she's smarter than, less than, or
anything. Just at the joy of learning. It's worked so far!
I know many people that wish to denigrate "the system", seemingly to me
sometimes, just because. I have only praise and thanks for the school and
teachers in my daughter's life so far.
peterd
--The original peterd. Accept no substitutes.--
http://www.peterd.com
Mary Jo Sterns
appears the kindergarten and even grade 1 are not treated with any respect.
Our children are so much more stimulated that when we were their age.
Therefore they, I believe, learn faster. IE Movies, TV , preschool programs
and day care, etc. Unfortunately, the school system has not caught up. As a
result, kids are in kindergarten treated as "non readers" and it really is
just playing around.
There will be many that will disagree. But I feel that in kindergarten,
academics should start. There is no reason that children can learn to read
at that level. It empowers the children so much and they become so
interested in the world when they can read.
For my daughter, the first years were spent in private school. She started
is not that she is abnormally intelligent. She was given the opportunity to
learn. That is all that it takes. We as parents must put the pressure on
the school boards. And you should talk to your child's teacher. Make her or
she aware of your concerns. And it will also mean that your will have to
take time at home to find challenging stuff for your child as well. And you
will become involved in his schooling.
Good Luck.
MJ
> Nicol wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Is this curriculum what your children experienced in Kindergarten? Is
it
> > normal to teach these things in K? I'm not really sure if this school
> > allows children to move up, or if Andrew is really ready to move up to
the
> > first grade or not, but I also don't want him to hate school right from
the
> > start.
> >
> > Any suggestions? Experience?
>
ange...@my-dejanews.com
why at the end:
In article <36020235...@peterd.com>,
"Peter F. DeMos" <pet...@peterd.com> wrote:
> MJ wrote, amongst other things:
>
> > kindergarten and even grade 1 are not treated with any respect.
> and...
> > kids are in kindergarten treated as "non readers" and it really is
> > just playing around.
>
> I disagree, with this entire thread.
>
> > There will be many that will disagree.
>
> Oh? Who? Hehehehe.
>
> > But I feel that in kindergarten, academics should start.
> and...
> > For my daughter, the first years were spent in private school. She started
> > learning to read when she was barely 4.
>
> I don't know where those involved in this thread are located, exactly, but
> I'm in San Diego Ca. Ca is supposedly one of the lowest rated states in
> the nation for schooling. But. I have been reading to, and teaching my
> daughters how to read, since they were each 2+. Jess is now in 1st grade,
> after one year of teaching in kindergarten. She was, and remains,
> enthralled. With the whole process. She's never displayed boredom at
> school, only excitement at the prospect of another day there. Learning is
> a joy to her, and it's obvious. First thing she does upon arrival at home
> is her homework. With diligence and care.
>
> I think it has helped for me to be involved in the school, there a lot,
> and praising those around her in charge. She has a healthy respect for all
> involved. I don't focus on whether she's smarter than, less than, or
> anything. Just at the joy of learning. It's worked so far!
>
> I know many people that wish to denigrate "the system", seemingly to me
> sometimes, just because. I have only praise and thanks for the school and
> teachers in my daughter's life so far.
>
> peterd
> --The original peterd. Accept no substitutes.--
> http://www.peterd.com
>
As a substitute teacher in the lower elementary grades, a mother and a woman
who wants to finish her Master's of Ed, I kept all of your post to show
people what most educational research does. The key to successful education
rests on three factors: parental involvement, reading to (and on your own)
and consistent study time. Peter, I kept your post because you show that
you not only practice these three key elements but also discuss the
results of that.
I have long maintained that it's not a question of public or private schools
but rather whether it's an education friendly home or not. The other night
was "curriculum" night for Micah's grade level (K-2) and his teacher was
*very* serious about these things. She is constantly taking, and giving,
workshops and classes on first grade education. She has written educational
program outlines for discussing women in history and how to teach to girls
without neglecting boys as well as reseach on problem solving and critical
thinking skills and how to teach them at the first grade level.
She made it *quite* clear that she expects every parent in her classroom
as a helper at least twice a year. Her feeling is that you may have to
take an extended lunch hour, a morning off or even the whole day but that
the benefit of that to you and your child far outweigh any "inconvenience."
She also made a point of saying that you need to set reasonable to high
expectations for you child and let them rise to them. She said that is
why she insists the child does things like put away their own lunch box
and back pack or work with other children on certai projects. When adults
immediately jump in on something that might be a bit difficult, you send
the message that you don't believe your child can do it and the child then
gets the sense that they can't achieve.
Many of the finest private schools have turned out some of our most
famous bad boys. (Does the name Kennedy ring a bell?...ooops...I can't
say that...I live in Massachusetts ; ) ) There are large numbers of
children at "good" schools who have no sense of responsibility, regret or
consequence. Some of our worst schools have produced some of our biggest
movers and shakers of industry. What is the *one* thing the majority of
successful people do and say? Thier parents were involved in their lives.
It doesn't matter if they came for the traditional family home, single
parent homes, foster homes, whatever. If there is someone there who cares,
the child will succeed.
I have *always* told my kids that I don't care what their grades are so
long as their conduct and effort grades are "A"s. If their conduct
and effort are that high, it means they are doing the best they can. If
the best they can do is C work, then that is the best. If it is A work,
then it is more meaningful than an A with no effort. If it is a failing
grade, then new approaches need to be taken to teach this material to
this child. Grades are a pointless measurement system for the most
part...it is the application of information learned that makes a difference
in the long run. Conduct and effort tell me if my child can apply the
information and where work is needed.
Public...private....people will believe what they want to. I will cite one
example of big mover and shaker in both the education *and* entertainment
industry that is the product of a single parent home (raised by his mother
and grandmother) AND went to innercity schools: Dr. William Cosby. I
wouldn't call Bill Cosby stupid, an underachiever or unsuccessful.
But hey...that's my .02
--
karla
"It was time to stop playing games. It was time
to put on funny hats and eat ice cream" R.
ange...@my-dejanews.com
a couple of things to you.
Having a child circle different groups and different colors seems
pretty simplistic and boring to us....we're adults. But what it
shows a teacher is a number of things: can your child discern
patterns (the *very* basics of math is patterning)? can your child
follow directions? can your child distinguish subtlties. For example
the "which hat is differnt" exercise that is *so* obvious to us may
not be as obvious to a 5 year old. A five year old with a disability
may be absolutely stymied by the problem all together.
The first month to six weeks is really a leveling period for all
grades. It establishes the "average" bench mark for a class and
allows the teacher to see who excels, who is behind and who is
average. It helps in the breakdown of groupings later. Also, a
child who is smart but misses details is in need of specific attention.
I was never a big "worksheet" fan. I felt it was an easy out for
teachers who were lazy. I know understand that it is a standard, or
control, element to help a teacher measure and work from there.
A teacher who ONLY uses worksheets and nothing else is probably
lazy. A teacher who uses them as one tool of many is someone who
is probably doing their job.
I would suggest a conference with the teacher to explain your concerns.
Sometimes a teacher needs to speak with a parent. One of the problems
I had with James' (and later Micah's) teacher was that she assumed all
kids in that neighborhood came from blue collar families with little
(if any) education above a high school diploma. I remember my first
conference with her and her change in attitude towards me once I kindly
explained that their dad had two college degrees and I was working on
my Masters. It disturbed me at first and still does. It's not that
she is looking down her nose (as I first thought) but that it changes
her approach to the child knowing what kind of reinforcement that child
has in the home environment.
Another thing to remember: a lot of kids don't like Kindergarten once
they get down to work and have a bit more structure than you do on the
pre-school level. Pre-K and Pre-school have more of a play element than
Kindergarten does...keep that in mind. Some kids would rather play than
work...that is reality. A lot of kids don't understand that they can't
dictate the schedule as they previously done all their lives. At the
age of 5, they are only beginning to be aware of the fact that they
*aren't* the center of the universe...that's just how it is.
There are a large number of educational and developmental factors at
work to a five year old in kindergarten. It is a *very* stressful time
for them, even if it doesn't appear so to us. I would suggest a teacher
conference and going to your local library for a couple of books on
early elementary ed. (I can't think of any off the top of my head ... wish
I could maybe take a look at the "What every <x grader> should know"
series...I guess that would be a good starting point.) Ask your pediatrician
for some information. Pick up Penelope Leach's book on development at that
age or Haim Ginnott's "Between Parent and Child" for some behavioral
approaches.
Most importantly BE INVOLVED. Don't rip apart the teacher or the work
in front of your child....remember, this is your child's teacher this
year and if you're ripping this stuff apart in front of them now, how
are you going to expect them to respect the teaching staff, school and
curriculum when it is tougher later? (I figure the same rule for ex-spice
apply to schools. Here or in private is fine...just not in front of the
kids. ; ) )
janelaw
I'm in San Diego, too. I am very happy with the education my
daughter is getting. She has the most wonderful teacher in the
world. An earlier teacher was mediocre, though. I believe that
the school principal is key. When class size was reduced, ours
explained that she was responsible or hiring incoming staff.
You're lucky that your girls are coming into the system now.
They will benefit from smaller classes. Most kids my daughter's
age are still in classes of 36 and always will be. She is in a
class with 19 now, and the difference is phenomenal.
Mary Jo Sterns
I agree that the #1 thing to do is be involved with your school, class and
teacher and the principal.
In Canada we are going thru some pains of a new cirriculum . Our government
changed the style of education a number of years ago. Moved away from the
basics and got into what I call " a feel good" approach. This allowed kids
to be pushed thru the system. Bottom line is our children were going off to
university illiterate. The new cirrculum should fix all that, but in time.
More standards and more measurement.
We are lucky we have a great school with great teachers. Some areas have
more challenges. Children with english as a second language, for example.
I am sure that a big part in your daugher's thrill for learning came for
you beginning to teach her when she was younger. It is amazing the number
of young children who dont even get read to in their homes.
And homework in Grade 1.... excellent.
And you are so right .... the joy of learning.. thats what is important.
And if that joy is encouraged in our children at an early age, their
futures will only be bright.
MJ
I don't know where those involved in this thread are located, exactly, but
> I'm in San Diego Ca. Ca is supposedly one of the lowest rated states in
> the nation for schooling. But. I have been reading to, and teaching my
> daughters how to read, since they were each 2+. Jess is now in 1st grade,
> after one year of teaching in kindergarten. She was, and remains,
> enthralled. With the whole process. She's never displayed boredom at
> school, only excitement at the prospect of another day there. Learning is
> a joy to her, and it's obvious. First thing she does upon arrival at home
> is her homework. With diligence and care.
>
> I think it has helped for me to be involved in the school, there a lot,
> and praising those around her in charge. She has a healthy respect for
all
> involved. I don't focus on whether she's smarter than, less than, or
> anything. Just at the joy of learning. It's worked so far!
>
> I know many people that wish to denigrate "the system", seemingly to me
> sometimes, just because. I have only praise and thanks for the school and
> teachers in my daughter's life so far.
>
> peterd
Mary Jo Sterns
MJ
Nicol
of turned into an interesting discussion on education. I know what I need
to do as a parent as far as being involved in my son's education and not
undermining the teachers (I'll be a teacher one of these years). He has a
love for learning as all children do in some form. Many times I think
schools can squash that love (in the *school* environment) depending on
their methods. Constant worksheets, unchallenging work, and a dull delivery
can leave kids hating school, but not necessarily hating learning. There is
a world of difference there. I agree with Karla that worksheets should only
be used in a limited way as part of an arsenal of materials and activities a
teacher creates for his/her students.
Of course parents play a huge role in a child's education. They are that
child's first teacher, role model, etc. That's why charter schools can be
so successful and increased parental involvement at the schools can mean the
difference between students who perform badly and those who perform well.
We recently read about a high school in Harlem that went from a 7%
graduation rate to a 90%, based partly on parental involvement (many other
small changes also helped).
I am hoping for Andrew that this really is just a period of assessing
individual student abilities, and that's what I was hoping to hear from
those of you who have children in Kindergarten or who already passed through
K. I've been trying for awhile to get an appointment made with his teacher,
but thus far haven't heard anything back from her. I know she is probably
feeling pretty overwhelmed as this is her first year teaching.
Again thanks for the responses!
Nicol
Kse63
This is interesting.....The last two years at the public elementary school
where my two youngest are now has really piqued my interest in education
process.
Last night, I had the honor of attending an "Award Gala" sponsored by several
businesses and government groups, like the Ohio State Board of Education,
Proctor & Gamble, Smuckers, etc. The purpose of the Gala was to honor schools,
communities, and individuals who are "inventing" new ways to help kids learn,
mature, and grow.
I learned SO much at this one event and came away very excited! There were 38
schools in Ohio who won the award we won. (out of 88 counties, not bad!!) There
were 5 communities awarded, and about 7 schools who have received the award
more than one time (they receive a different award when other schools adopt
their program in some form). The great thing was listening to all of the ways
that parents/community leaders/businesses/schools are forming partnerships FOR
children.
The programs ranged from encouraging preschoolers to read earlier to making
sure teens (in particular, this was for minority teens) were staying in school.
There were a few very interesting new approaches to school/work programs for
teens, and LOADS of new ways to encourage kids to learn.
You've all heard my speech about our program, so I won't go there, but I came
away very hopeful that people are starting to open their eyes and realize that
sitting children behind a desk and lecturing to them for 8 hours is NOT the
best way to educate them. The new focus is on interaction between the children,
their peers, older students, parents, community members, etc. What we are
learning is that LOTS of non-teaching folks out there have tons of information
to give to our children, and really, all you have to do is ask!
Can you tell I'm still pumped?? It was awesome! The "statue" we won is of about
6 children holding the world in their hands. It is clay, and weighed something
like 75 lbs!
As for the kindergarten thing, Karla pretty well handled it, but I wanted to
add a note. I have my youngest in kindergarten this year, and she comes home
very excited about the work she is doing. I know that it is very easy for her
by her presentation to me, BUT I show excitement in her work, and she in turn
is excited. Never have I thought to ask her if she is bored or if the work is
easy. Keep in mind that your child may have had school experiences before (as
mine had) but many haven't. Also, just because they're all 5 year olds doesn't
mean they're all at the same level of maturity.
Kindergarten here is not picking colors. So far, they have done a unit on
"getting to know you" (their new environment), "getting to know me"
(themselves), and pets was this week. Now, that may seem very basic, but what
they are doing is starting out kids in a very new and "big" environment with
some old familiar material. It helps the teacher get to know the kids without
sitting down and saying "Now Johnny, how many brothers do you have?, etc."
Johnny gets a piece of paper and some markers and he draws his family. They
start with stuff they know to help their adjustment period - build a little
self confidence, etc. For the kids who haven't had any school experience, it's
a nice slow start with old familiar material. They're not intimidated by so
much "new" all at once.
Don't worry, Kindergarten isn't just colors and shapes, it's Letter People (We
did Mr. T with tall teeth - and Taylor thinks it's funny that I already know
their "handle" when she comes home !); it's learning early math that Karla
mentioned, it's beginning to learn to work in groups and alone, it's lots of
"behind the scenes" stuff that doesn't look like learning, but really is.
Relax, and make sure you don't express your concerns to your son. Be excited
for him. Be enthusiastic and help him to be. Please don't encourage him in his
boredom. Also, if he really is so bored, maybe he could help out some of the
kids who aren't adjusting so well. Talk to the teacher, but at our school, they
encourage peer to peer assistance like that!
The other piece of advice I will back up 2000% is to get involved!!! Especially
kindergarten - they LOVE for parents to help out!! Go in and read to a bunch of
the kids. Share with them something unique. Help them draw pictures, anything.
That's what it's all about. The more involved you are, the better you will
appreciate your child's education and the hard work that is being put into it!!
Good luck....
K
"Never above you. Never below you. Always beside you."
---Walter Winchell
Opus-
peeve re: higher education and college.
Most parents want their kids in college. Why?
I am reminded of a close friend who was pushed into university in
Calgary by her mother. This girl now works in a donut shop and enjoys
it. She doesn't even admit almost having a masters degree. She
despised the whole process.
As a parent, would any of you be less "proud" if your child became a
mechanic, plumber, carpenter or electrician instead of getting a
degree? I will be most proud of my daughter if she does the best she
can at what she WANTS to do. And if that means being a mechanic, all
the better. [I am a mechanic, by the way]. But the choice MUST be hers
with no outside influence. [did you know that Bill Gates is a
university drop out?]
I am reminded of a conversation I had with the highschool guidance
councilor 20 years ago. When I told him I wanted to be either a
mechanic or an electrician, he said "A mechanic??? But you have the
potential to do so much BETTER" I was infuriated!! How many people
believe that you are a "nobody" without a degree? How many highschool
students base their choices on those attitudes.
There is a whole world of things out there that DON'T require a degree
to enjoy.
--
jbu...@remove.videonwave.com
(Jim, single dad to Lesleigh 04/20/94)
Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled
of elderberries!! Now go away or I shall taunt you
a second time!!
Julie
My opinions are based on my experience only, but I have *always* strongly
encouraged Josh to go to college. In fact, when he was little I never
spoke of it as an option, but a natural continuation after high school. He
was absolutely shocked when he found out in first grade that it wasn't
mandatory. :-)
I personally don't care if he wants to work at the video store on the
corner, shovel shit or take up professional basket weaving. I do want him
to have the foundation to do whatever he chooses to do at different stages
in his life.
Right now, I'm stuck in a field that I'm growing more and more weary of,
but am lucky to be in considering my lack of education. I can't tell you
what I'd give to have a few more options. Once Josh is off to school, I'm
hoping to get back into it myself just to broaden my opportunities.
I'm miles away from being a degree snob, but I think it can be extremely
important in order to avoid limiting our kids' futures.
JMO...
Julie
Opus-
thusly:
>Hi Opus -
>My opinions are based on my experience only, but I have *always* strongly
>encouraged Josh to go to college. In fact, when he was little I never
>spoke of it as an option, but a natural continuation after high school. He
>was absolutely shocked when he found out in first grade that it wasn't
>mandatory. :-)
College is only one option. I am saying that there are hundreds of
other options that college does NOT offer. But those worthy options
have a stigma placed on them by the college bound.
Did you know that in Germany and Japan only 5% of students go beyond
high school? Those countries both refuse to compete in international
competitions and studies that determine which school system in which
country is "better". Interestingly enough, both countries are where
you find the very best engineers in the world.
>I personally don't care if he wants to work at the video store on the
>corner, shovel shit or take up professional basket weaving. I do want him
>to have the foundation to do whatever he chooses to do at different stages
>in his life.
>
>Right now, I'm stuck in a field that I'm growing more and more weary of,
>but am lucky to be in considering my lack of education. I can't tell you
>what I'd give to have a few more options. Once Josh is off to school, I'm
>hoping to get back into it myself just to broaden my opportunities.
Good for you, but for far too many people college=status.
I had a nice conversation with a professor at the University of
Winnipeg. He believes that 60% of students should not be there, mainly
because of parents shoving them there, ostensibly for bragging value.
>I'm miles away from being a degree snob, but I think it can be extremely
>important in order to avoid limiting our kids' futures.
I have nothing against education at all, but there is more than one
route a person can travel. Why should they be limited to just
college?
darl...@hotmail.com
There are many ways to get educated. A person can learn anything that is
taught in college, on their own. The same can be said about high school.
Unfortunately, there are many careers and jobs that require that peice of
paper that college gives them. That doesn't necessarily mean that they
learned anything, but they look for that.
My son wants to be a teacher. He will have to go to college to get there.
That's just a fact of life. If he wanted to become a mechanic, I would
encourage a school that focuses on that. The school of higher education should
fit the goal they are attempting.
Darlin'62
Dididiaz31
>I personally don't care if he wants to work at the video store on the corner,
shovel shit or take up professional basket weaving.
A good bachelors degree in psychology would help with the "shit shoveling" job.
<teasing>
Didi, single mother to Caitlin, 9, Patrick, 7, and Meagan, 4.
"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against
it."
G.K. Chesterton
Pleiades
>
> On 19 Sep 1998 17:50:42 GMT, Julie <jul...@worldnet.att.net> spake
> thusly:
>
> >Hi Opus -
> >My opinions are based on my experience only, but I have *always* strongly
> >encouraged Josh to go to college. In fact, when he was little I never
> >spoke of it as an option, but a natural continuation after high school. He
> >was absolutely shocked when he found out in first grade that it wasn't
> >mandatory. :-)
>
> College is only one option. I am saying that there are hundreds of
> other options that college does NOT offer. But those worthy options
> have a stigma placed on them by the college bound.
> Did you know that in Germany and Japan only 5% of students go beyond
> high school? Those countries both refuse to compete in international
> competitions and studies that determine which school system in which
> country is "better". Interestingly enough, both countries are where
> you find the very best engineers in the world.
>
> >to have the foundation to do whatever he chooses to do at different stages
> >in his life.
> >
> >Right now, I'm stuck in a field that I'm growing more and more weary of,
> >but am lucky to be in considering my lack of education. I can't tell you
> >what I'd give to have a few more options. Once Josh is off to school, I'm
> >hoping to get back into it myself just to broaden my opportunities.
>
> Good for you, but for far too many people college=status.
> I had a nice conversation with a professor at the University of
> Winnipeg. He believes that 60% of students should not be there, mainly
> because of parents shoving them there, ostensibly for bragging value.
>
> >I'm miles away from being a degree snob, but I think it can be extremely
> >important in order to avoid limiting our kids' futures.
>
> I have nothing against education at all, but there is more than one
> route a person can travel. Why should they be limited to just
> college?
I'm proud of my college degree, but I do think there's a problem with a
society that defines success partly in terms of whether or not someone
has a degree. There are a lot of jobs that we can't live without, and
they don't all require a degree. There is a lot of pressure on kids
because of an insistence that they go to college, that it's the only
route to a successful future. I hope that we do move beyond this
someday. I have one son who will undoubtedly go to college. It's how
he sees his future. With my other son, it's hard for me to see a
scenario in which he'd go to college. I'd certainly support that
decision if it's the one he makes, but this kid has hated school since
the first day of kindergarten and insists that he's allergic to it.
Given his experience, I understand why he's reached the position that
school is not healthy for children and other living things. :-)
BTW, my brother doesn't have even a single semester of college under his
belt, and he's financially more successful - much more successful - than
I'll ever be. He's doing something that he loves and that he's good at.
I was talking to a high school counselor a few days ago, and she was
telling me about a new program run by some computer company. The idea
is that a school district signs a contract with that company, and then
the company comes in and sets up a training program for students who
want to pursue this particular vocational program. I'm not sure if it's
computer repair or...something related to computers. The students who
complete the program successfully are hired by the computer company
right out of high school at a very decent salary. I think we'd benefit
if we had more programs like this in our schools. In this area,
vocational programs tend to get cut due to fiscal belt-tightening.
Wanda
Pleiades
>
> It's true that a person doesn't have to go to college to continue learning.
> There are many ways to get educated. A person can learn anything that is
> taught in college, on their own. The same can be said about high school.
>
> Unfortunately, there are many careers and jobs that require that peice of
> paper that college gives them. That doesn't necessarily mean that they
> learned anything, but they look for that.
>
> My son wants to be a teacher. He will have to go to college to get there.
> That's just a fact of life. If he wanted to become a mechanic, I would
> encourage a school that focuses on that. The school of higher education should
> fit the goal they are attempting.
More and more schools are hiring people who go through an alternative
teacher's education program. Generally, this requires some college but
not a degree. The student more or less interns during the first year of
teaching to receive full certification.
Wanda
Opus-
>It's true that a person doesn't have to go to college to continue learning.
>There are many ways to get educated. A person can learn anything that is
>taught in college, on their own. The same can be said about high school.
>
>Unfortunately, there are many careers and jobs that require that peice of
>paper that college gives them. That doesn't necessarily mean that they
>learned anything, but they look for that.
Recent surveys of employers has found that attitude changing. Perhaps
because so many of them have hired real idiots because of a piece of
paper suggested otherwise.
I should tell you about a university graduate who approved of his late
father keeping over $100,000 CASH hidden in the house, as opposed to
placing it in the bank, so he could avoid paying tax on the interest
he would have earned. The fact that his father would still have come
out ahead after taxes was completely lost on him. He is still
convinced that earning all that interest would have been a bad thing.
>My son wants to be a teacher. He will have to go to college to get there.
>That's just a fact of life. If he wanted to become a mechanic, I would
>encourage a school that focuses on that. The school of higher education should
>fit the goal they are attempting.
That has exactly been my point all along.
Pleiades
>
> On Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:04:56 GMT, darl...@hotmail.com spake thusly:
>
> >It's true that a person doesn't have to go to college to continue learning.
> >There are many ways to get educated. A person can learn anything that is
> >taught in college, on their own. The same can be said about high school.
> >
> >Unfortunately, there are many careers and jobs that require that peice of
> >paper that college gives them. That doesn't necessarily mean that they
> >learned anything, but they look for that.
>
> Recent surveys of employers has found that attitude changing. Perhaps
> because so many of them have hired real idiots because of a piece of
> paper suggested otherwise.
One of my uncles used to be an efficiency expert. I have no idea how
you go about preparing to be an efficiency expert, although I do know
that he has numerous degrees culminating in a Ph.D., but that's not
really the point. Jerry always insisted that when he went into a
company for a consulting job, he first had to stop in the CEO's office
because it was expected. But he said his second stop was always some
little broom closet or cubbyhole where someone - a janitor, a night
watchman, someone at the bottom of the company food chain, someone who'd
been there for years although largely forgotten by the higher-ups -
could tell you much more about the workings of the company than the CEO.
I think also of my dad and several of his co-workers who had been with a
national telephone company for years, ever since WWII, but all took
early retirement after trying to work under an idiot who knew nothing
about what he was doing but did have the piece of paper that the company
valued so highly. When all of the veteran workers transferred or took
early retirement rather than work under this idiot, there was no one
left who knew how to do the job.
Wanda
Peter F. DeMos
> My friends degree has done nothing for her. It did not give her any
> choices, it reduced them.
This is utter hogwash.
I've known some who denigrate the pursuit of education, and I never think
highly of them, at all. It sounds ignorant, and I'm shocked to hear you
doing it.
> A degree in psychology can only do a few
> things, especially if it isn't want you REALLY want in the first
> place. And isn't that what really matters?
That has nothing to do with your first statement. Because she has a
degree, she now can't.... what? Flip burgers? Be a secretary? Own her own
business? She's limited to only something in the psych field, *and* she
never "REALLY" wanted that in the first place? Come on Jim, wake up.
Mary Jo Sterns
that an education is. So whether your child opts to learn a skill such as,
mechanic or pastry chef or spend their life at school and get a PhD, they
are learning and are getting an education. Eduation gives our children
choices. That is whats important. Your friend got educated and then made
her choice.. the donut shop. The donut shop was not here only choice.
That's the difference.
MJ
Opus- <jbu...@remove.videonwave.com> wrote in article
<3603ddc2...@news.videon.wave.ca>...
> This thread about education had got me thinking again about a pet
> peeve re: higher education and college.
>
> Most parents want their kids in college. Why?
> I am reminded of a close friend who was pushed into university in
> Calgary by her mother. This girl now works in a donut shop and enjoys
> it. She doesn't even admit almost having a masters degree. She
> despised the whole process.
>
> As a parent, would any of you be less "proud" if your child became a
> mechanic, plumber, carpenter or electrician instead of getting a
> degree? I will be most proud of my daughter if she does the best she
> can at what she WANTS to do. And if that means being a mechanic, all
> the better. [I am a mechanic, by the way]. But the choice MUST be hers
> with no outside influence. [did you know that Bill Gates is a
> university drop out?]
>
> I am reminded of a conversation I had with the highschool guidance
> councilor 20 years ago. When I told him I wanted to be either a
> mechanic or an electrician, he said "A mechanic??? But you have the
> potential to do so much BETTER" I was infuriated!! How many people
> believe that you are a "nobody" without a degree? How many highschool
> students base their choices on those attitudes.
>
> There is a whole world of things out there that DON'T require a degree
> to enjoy.
NJrseyMom
>
>My son has been in Kindergarten for a few weeks now. He's already bored,
>doesn't want to go, and just generally doesn't like it. I've been looking
>at the papers coming home, and I can't say I blame him. One of the "math"
>worksheets (I have a huge problem with worksheets for children, but that is
>another issue) asked students to identify objects on top, in the middle, in
>between, and on the bottom.
>Is this curriculum what your children experienced in Kindergarten? Is it
>normal to teach these things in K? I'm not really sure if this school
>allows children to move up, or if Andrew is really ready to move up to the
>first grade or not, but I also don't want him to hate school right from the
>start.
>
my daughter is in 1st grade, and i'm frustrated by her unimpressive homework,
also. all things she's been doing since she was 2 or 3. so i talked to the
teacher and expressed my frustration. the teacher told me that the first
semester is all review and that she was using the results of this 'review' to
place her students into groups. well, 1/2 a year of kindergarten work isn't my
idea of 1st grade. so i asked the teacher to provide enrichment for my
daughter, who is an average to high student. it worked. i'm a teacher, and i
hear this from parents all the time, and i happily comply.
i would suggest you talk to your child's teacher, express your concern, and
request (demand if you have to) enrichment.
i would think twice or thrice b4 i had him artificially promoted. kindergarten
is more a socialization time than a time for true education. students learn
more HOW to learn than actually learning new things.
good luck :)
- Jean
Leyton Collins
>
> Opus, I agree that a "university degree" is not a necessity. . . .
> The donut shop was not here only choice.
> That's the difference.
> MJ
I agree with MJ. To the person its not the degree that counts its the
ability to have choice.
I actually started out doing several different manual jobs. Each time
with at least one boss in the area that treated you like dime a dozen
dirt. Went into auto mechanics, was doing my apprenticeship, and my
back started going bad. From there I went into electronics and then
did a B.A. in psych. Big deal! I've got 2 degrees and when it comes
down to the nut shell you could have hundreds of degrees and it aint
gonna do nuthin to make you happy.
Its like in Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol:
Young Scrooge: "Of course money isn't everything, but the world can
be terribly cruel to those who don't have it."
How true. But by the end of the story he found out that he had wasted
his life by letting money rule him rather than the other way around
(i.e. choice).
Leyton
Opus-
spake thusly:
>> I have nothing against education at all, but there is more than one
>> route a person can travel. Why should they be limited to just
>> college?
>
>I'm proud of my college degree, but I do think there's a problem with a
>society that defines success partly in terms of whether or not someone
>has a degree. There are a lot of jobs that we can't live without, and
>they don't all require a degree. There is a lot of pressure on kids
>because of an insistence that they go to college, that it's the only
>route to a successful future. I hope that we do move beyond this
>someday. I have one son who will undoubtedly go to college. It's how
>he sees his future. With my other son, it's hard for me to see a
>scenario in which he'd go to college. I'd certainly support that
>decision if it's the one he makes, but this kid has hated school since
>the first day of kindergarten and insists that he's allergic to it.
>Given his experience, I understand why he's reached the position that
>school is not healthy for children and other living things. :-)
I know exactly how your son feels. My high school years were the worst
years of my life. It was a breath of fresh air when I finally left
school and started working. My "elders" told me that the real world
of working for a living was much harder than school. I found that to
be a lie.
>BTW, my brother doesn't have even a single semester of college under his
>belt, and he's financially more successful - much more successful - than
>I'll ever be. He's doing something that he loves and that he's good at.
I am firmly convinced that if Bill Gates stayed in university, he
would be nowhere near what he is today....we will never know.
It has been my experience that a university degree does not add to
your choices, it limits them.
>I was talking to a high school counselor a few days ago, and she was
>telling me about a new program run by some computer company. The idea
>is that a school district signs a contract with that company, and then
>the company comes in and sets up a training program for students who
>want to pursue this particular vocational program. I'm not sure if it's
>computer repair or...something related to computers. The students who
>complete the program successfully are hired by the computer company
>right out of high school at a very decent salary. I think we'd benefit
>if we had more programs like this in our schools. In this area,
>vocational programs tend to get cut due to fiscal belt-tightening.
That is splendid!! It is also a centuries old idea in Germany. A
typical high school day in Germany includes a great deal of time in a
classroom at Daimler-Benz or Siemens or Bosch or Stihl etc....
No wonder Germans are the best engineers in the world. They invented
the automobile as we know it, and the engines that power them.
This is all a result of the excellent German guild system in days gone
by.
Opus-
spake thusly:
>Opus, I agree that a "university degree" is not a necessity. I do believe
>that an education is. So whether your child opts to learn a skill such as,
>mechanic or pastry chef or spend their life at school and get a PhD, they
>are learning and are getting an education. Eduation gives our children
>choices. That is whats important. Your friend got educated and then made
>her choice.. the donut shop. The donut shop was not here only choice.
>That's the difference.
I agree that education is necessary...I never said I didn't
My friends degree has done nothing for her. It did not give her any
choices, it reduced them. A degree in psychology can only do a few
things, especially if it isn't want you REALLY want in the first
place. And isn't that what really matters?
--
Opus-
<leyton....@sympatico.ca> spake thusly:
>I agree with MJ. To the person its not the degree that counts its the
>ability to have choice.
>
>I actually started out doing several different manual jobs. Each time
>with at least one boss in the area that treated you like dime a dozen
>dirt. Went into auto mechanics, was doing my apprenticeship, and my
>back started going bad. From there I went into electronics and then
>did a B.A. in psych. Big deal! I've got 2 degrees and when it comes
>down to the nut shell you could have hundreds of degrees and it aint
>gonna do nuthin to make you happy.
That is actually my point. Too many people think a degree is
everything. And these people are shoving their kids into places they
really don't want to be.
>Its like in Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol:
>
>Young Scrooge: "Of course money isn't everything, but the world can
> be terribly cruel to those who don't have it."
>
>How true. But by the end of the story he found out that he had wasted
>his life by letting money rule him rather than the other way around
Exactly. And there is much more to choose from that just a degree.
My dearly departed grandfather felt that university was for people too
stupid to know how to use their hands. He was a tad opinionated. I
wish I spoke Ukrainian so I could have understood him better.
Opus-
<pet...@peterd.com> spake thusly:
>Jim wrote, amongst other things:
>
>> My friends degree has done nothing for her. It did not give her any
>> choices, it reduced them.
>
>This is utter hogwash.
>
>I've known some who denigrate the pursuit of education, and I never think
>highly of them, at all. It sounds ignorant, and I'm shocked to hear you
>doing it.
You should read my post a little more clearly. Where did I say
education is a bad thing? I DID say this :
"I agree that education is necessary...I never said I didn't."
And this:
"College is only one option. I am saying that there are hundreds of
other options that college does NOT offer. But those worthy options
have a stigma placed on them by the college bound."
By the way, my friend could not find any job at all, untill she
omitted the fact that she had a degree on the job applications. I
personally thought it was silly of her to mention it on any
application that didn't require a degree.
Incidentally, now that she has had several years of work experience
under her belt, she now wants to become a nurse. This of course
requires more schooling. I say bravo for her!! She will be doing
something she really wants, not what her mother wants.
>> A degree in psychology can only do a few
>> things, especially if it isn't want you REALLY want in the first
>> place. And isn't that what really matters?
>
>That has nothing to do with your first statement. Because she has a
>degree, she now can't.... what? Flip burgers? Be a secretary? Own her own
>business? She's limited to only something in the psych field, *and* she
>never "REALLY" wanted that in the first place? Come on Jim, wake up.
I am wide awake. [caffeine high]. I know how to operate a commercial
sewing machine, but I would refuse a job operating one, so therefore I
have removed the option from my mind, and I have other options that
make it unnecessary.
I say education is great, but why should it zero in on a degree? What
is wrong with learning a trade? THAT has been my point.
Get a job you love, and you will never work a day in your life.
almost...@geocities.com
didid...@aol.com (Dididiaz31) wrote:
>
> >I personally don't care if he wants to work at the video store on the corner,
> shovel shit or take up professional basket weaving.
>
job.
> <teasing>
>
Hmmm, I thought a law degree would do that. Oh, my mistake, they are the ones
that dish out the shit!
> Didi, single mother to Caitlin, 9, Patrick, 7, and Meagan, 4.
>
> "A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against
> it."
> G.K. Chesterton
>
--
Char
Leyton Collins
I heard about this. Its for computerized video graphics. You know, like
the dinosaurs in Jarassic Park, Toy Story, A Bug's Life. Pays big
bucks!
Leyton
Robbin Spoonamore Hubbard
> I say education is great, but why should it zero in on a degree? What
> is wrong with learning a trade? THAT has been my point.
> Get a job you love, and you will never work a day in your life.
Speaking as one of those parents whose children think college is a given
. . .
Those four or five years are about so much more than getting a piece of
paper, and the degree represents so much more than what is taught in the
classroom. In the same way that junior high (from a kid's POV) is more
about socialization than about academics, college is about learning
grown-up life lessons and making the transition from childhood to
adulthood.
Trade school teaches you how to do your job - period. College,
hopefully, is a broad enough experience that you bring to that job the
ability to understand organizational behavior, solve conflict, manage
change, embrace diversity, etc., etc., etc. Regardless of what vocation
one chooses to practice, the collegiate experience will only enhance it.
----
Robbin Spoonamore Hubbard
http://php.indiana.edu/~rmhubbar
Pleiades
Maybe so. I'll try to find out more about it. I know of one student
who left high school with this training and started out, having been
placed in a job by the company offering the training, at $50,000.
That's much more than I'm making as a teacher with 16 years experience.
Wanda
Cici in Texas
>This thread about education had got me thinking again about a pet
>peeve re: higher education and college.
>
>Most parents want their kids in college. Why?
> I am reminded of a close friend who was pushed into university in
>Calgary by her mother. This girl now works in a donut shop and enjoys
>it. She doesn't even admit almost having a masters degree. She
>despised the whole process.
>
>As a parent, would any of you be less "proud" if your child became a
>mechanic, plumber, carpenter or electrician instead of getting a
>degree? I will be most proud of my daughter if she does the best she
>can at what she WANTS to do. And if that means being a mechanic, all
>the better. [I am a mechanic, by the way]. But the choice MUST be hers
>with no outside influence. [did you know that Bill Gates is a
>university drop out?]
>
>I am reminded of a conversation I had with the highschool guidance
>councilor 20 years ago. When I told him I wanted to be either a
>mechanic or an electrician, he said "A mechanic??? But you have the
>potential to do so much BETTER" I was infuriated!! How many people
>believe that you are a "nobody" without a degree? How many highschool
>students base their choices on those attitudes.
>
>There is a whole world of things out there that DON'T require a degree
>to enjoy.
I wish I could remember who said it first, but . . .
When a society esteems its philosophers more than its
plumbers, neither its theories nor its pipes will hold
water.
Cici in Texas
(Remove xspam from address to reply)
Peter F. DeMos
>> I've known some who denigrate the pursuit of education, and I never think
>> highly of them, at all. It sounds ignorant, and I'm shocked to hear you
>> doing it.
> You should read my post a little more clearly. Where did I say
> education is a bad thing?
Actually, my comprehension is just fine. If you wish to play spin doctor,
maybe you should post a little *less* clearly.
> I DID say this :
> "College is only one option. I am saying that there are hundreds of
> other options that college does NOT offer. But those worthy options
> have a stigma placed on them by the college bound."
They haven't any stigma placed on them in my circles. Perhaps it's you and
your ideas that are feeling less than?
> By the way, my friend could not find any job at all, untill she
> omitted the fact that she had a degree on the job applications. I
> personally thought it was silly of her to mention it on any
> application that didn't require a degree.
Well... if you're applying to be a night clerk at the local 7/11 I might
agree with you. Ditto a night shift answering service person. Or a
janitor. Or a thousand other jobs I could think of. And if one has no
experience as a mechanic, and they want to be lead and service manager at
the local Ford shop, I suspect that degree or no, they'll be getting not
very far.
> I say education is great, but why should it zero in on a degree? What
> is wrong with learning a trade? THAT has been my point.
> Get a job you love, and you will never work a day in your life.
There's nothing wrong with learning a trade. It's just that I've known
darn few mechanics that could preach that last sentence. Darn few welders,
darn few ditchdiggers, darn few dock men. Actually Jim, when I think of
it... I've known zero. None. Zip. Nada... But...
I've know a ton of docs, nurses, professors, accountants, attorneys,
teachers, ad nauseum that could. Do *you* see any correlation? Nothing
wrong with being a mechanic. Nope. Nosireebob. But I know darn few that
can say they wouldn't trade it for the world. It may be what they do best,
but if they had a chance, the ones I've known would have given their eye
teeth not to have to bust knuckles and eat grit all day.
And I sure don't aspire for my daughters to work in a dry cleaning shop.
Opus-
<rmhu...@indiana.edu> spake thusly:
>Those four or five years are about so much more than getting a piece of
>paper, and the degree represents so much more than what is taught in the
>classroom. In the same way that junior high (from a kid's POV) is more
>about socialization than about academics, college is about learning
>grown-up life lessons and making the transition from childhood to
>adulthood.
I agree that college is a good thing. I am sure a person can get a
real benefit from a college education in many ways. But I think it can
hurt too.
>Trade school teaches you how to do your job - period. College,
>hopefully, is a broad enough experience that you bring to that job the
>ability to understand organizational behavior, solve conflict, manage
>change, embrace diversity, etc., etc., etc. Regardless of what vocation
>one chooses to practice, the collegiate experience will only enhance it.
Or hurt it. I asked my boss if he would hire a person with a degree.
A very quick and emphatic NO was the response. I asked him why. His
answer was "A person with a degree is unstable. They will quickly jump
ship for something better because they feel they are worth more
because of the degree. After all, why would a person with a degree
want to be a mechanic?" Interesting point I thought. This is why my
friend could not mention her degree on most job applications.
As soon as I get his permission, I will relate the story of a now
retired plant manager of a brewery in Eastern Canada. He was called in
to make the plant profitable again. I also don't have all the details
but I do remember that some people with degrees were turned down in
favor of high school graduates. Seems that production went way up.
Opus-
spake thusly:
>>There is a whole world of things out there that DON'T require a degree
>>to enjoy.
>
>
>I wish I could remember who said it first, but . . .
>
>When a society esteems its philosophers more than its
>plumbers, neither its theories nor its pipes will hold
>water.
I think it was Voltaire but I am probably wrong. I can easily check.
ange...@my-dejanews.com
plei...@pan-tex.net wrote:
> darl...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > It's true that a person doesn't have to go to college to continue learning.
> > There are many ways to get educated. A person can learn anything that is
> > taught in college, on their own. The same can be said about high school.
> >
> > Unfortunately, there are many careers and jobs that require that peice of
> > paper that college gives them. That doesn't necessarily mean that they
> > learned anything, but they look for that.
> >
> > That's just a fact of life. If he wanted to become a mechanic, I would
> > encourage a school that focuses on that. The school of higher education should
> > fit the goal they are attempting.
>
> teacher's education program. Generally, this requires some college but
> not a degree. The student more or less interns during the first year of
> teaching to receive full certification.
>
> Wanda
>
In Massachusetts, and probably many other states, one can not get
certification to teach in the public schools UNLESS you have a Master's of
Education.
Actually...let me rephrase that...you can not get your full certification
to teach unless you have a Masters. You have five years from the time
you receive your provisional certification to earn your Masters or you
loose your certification.
It's hard and it bites that someone like me can not legally teach in a
public school in this state without that level of credential...whether
or not I"m good at it. There are also exams to pass, requirements to
fulfill, continuing ed to take once you have your certification, etc.
It is no longer easy to become a teacher, which is both good and bad.
--
karla
"Life is like therapy: real expensive with no guarantees." G. Brooks
ange...@my-dejanews.com
1. Bill Gates was thrown out of Harvard for developing (what later
became) Microsoft Basic on their system. He stole time and resources
from the university for personal gain. They did not tolerate it.
If he had stayed, he probably would have stolen more to develop his
personal gain.
2. In Germany and Japan, the school system is structured *very*
differently than here in the US (I don't know about you folks up there
in the great white north). When I went to high school in Germany, I
went to school six days a week and the class structure was far more
intense than anything I have ever done here. Is it better? Well, I
think it's a subjective call. I would like to know where you got that
5% statistic from. As I recall, a large number of Japanese students
go to foreign countries for their college education. This includes schools
like MIT and CalTech here in the US.
As Mark Twain once said, there are three types of lies: lies, damned
lies and statistics. Becareful when you quote statistics because they
only tend to tell a small piece of the story.
Opus-
thusly:
>Opus...two things
>
>1. Bill Gates was thrown out of Harvard for developing (what later
>became) Microsoft Basic on their system. He stole time and resources
>from the university for personal gain. They did not tolerate it.
>If he had stayed, he probably would have stolen more to develop his
>personal gain.
Either way he does not have a degree. that was my point. He jumped at
an opportunity. He did it in a shady and dishonest manner, but he did
it. It seems that the most successful people DON'T follow the beaten
path. Lee Iacocca was hired at Ford in 1949 because he had an
engineering degree. after a short while he was so bored with it he
asked to move into sales. The rest is corporate history. While at
Ford, he commented that other executives carried little pieces of
paper with them. On the paper was NOT written sales figures or income
and profits. On them was a list of how many MBAs they hired, for easy
reference. Iacocca felt that those were warped priorities.
>2. In Germany and Japan, the school system is structured *very*
>differently than here in the US (I don't know about you folks up there
>in the great white north). When I went to high school in Germany, I
>went to school six days a week and the class structure was far more
>intense than anything I have ever done here. Is it better? Well, I
>think it's a subjective call. I would like to know where you got that
>5% statistic from. As I recall, a large number of Japanese students
>go to foreign countries for their college education. This includes schools
>like MIT and CalTech here in the US.
I know about that. Admiral Yamamoto went to Harvard before the war
broke out.
The information came from a PBS documentary comparing the education
systems of the US, Germany and Japan. They had cameras in the
classrooms to show the differences. The American system is geared more
towards the individual [ie: celebrating little Jonnys birthday, etc..]
while the other two tend to focus more on the group. [more gifted
students helping the "slower" ones...] They seemed to deal more with
the German system than the Japanese system. I understand the Japanese
system is extremely intense. A Japanese highschool grad may as well
have gone to college.
>As Mark Twain once said, there are three types of lies: lies, damned
>lies and statistics. Becareful when you quote statistics because they
>only tend to tell a small piece of the story.
I remember the wording now, except for what country exactly. In either
Japan or Germany, only 5% went on to university. I made the mistake
earlier of saying "went beyond high school". They specified
university.
I am trying to find a book written by the editor of Canadian Business
magazine, entitled "Drowning in Degrees". I heard him in a telephone
interview on a radio talk show. He feels that the economy is damaged
by the huge resources going to obtaining degrees compared to the
return. Keep in mind that in Canada about 75% of university and
college is subsidized by the taxpayers. And taxpayers are getting
upset at seeing people with degrees flipping burgers while there is an
ACUTE shortage of trades people. Several of our competitors have been
looking for help since March. One of them had 2 applicants in a 6
month period. The job placement rate at trade schools and community
colleges [basically government owned trade schools] is close to %100
Opus-
<pet...@peterd.com> spake thusly:
>Jim wrote, amongst other things:
>
>>> I've known some who denigrate the pursuit of education, and I never think
>>> highly of them, at all. It sounds ignorant, and I'm shocked to hear you
>>> doing it.
>
>> You should read my post a little more clearly. Where did I say
>> education is a bad thing?
>
>Actually, my comprehension is just fine. If you wish to play spin doctor,
>maybe you should post a little *less* clearly.
I made myself quite clear..you just didn't get it. See below.
>> I DID say this :
>> "College is only one option. I am saying that there are hundreds of
>> other options that college does NOT offer. But those worthy options
>> have a stigma placed on them by the college bound."
>
>They haven't any stigma placed on them in my circles. Perhaps it's you and
>your ideas that are feeling less than?
Oh gimmie a break. Any person in high school who chooses a trade is
looked down upon by college bound students and even the teachers. Did
you see my earlier post about my high school guidance councilors? He
was a pinhead.
>> By the way, my friend could not find any job at all, untill she
>> omitted the fact that she had a degree on the job applications. I
>> personally thought it was silly of her to mention it on any
>> application that didn't require a degree.
>
>Well... if you're applying to be a night clerk at the local 7/11 I might
>agree with you. Ditto a night shift answering service person. Or a
>janitor. Or a thousand other jobs I could think of. And if one has no
>experience as a mechanic, and they want to be lead and service manager at
>the local Ford shop, I suspect that degree or no, they'll be getting not
>very far.
Ahhh.. so you are implying that ALL jobs that don't require a degree
are menial? I should introduce you to Fritz, a mechanic I know who
drives a new Cadillac every year or my high school dropout boss who
owns the business and lives in a quarter million dollar house. Pretty
menial life.
Since there were no openings requiring her degree anywhere in the
city, she had to grab what she could. Her silly mistake was mentioning
the degree.
>> I say education is great, but why should it zero in on a degree? What
>> is wrong with learning a trade? THAT has been my point.
>> Get a job you love, and you will never work a day in your life.
>
>There's nothing wrong with learning a trade. It's just that I've known
>darn few mechanics that could preach that last sentence. Darn few welders,
>darn few ditchdiggers, darn few dock men. Actually Jim, when I think of
>it... I've known zero. None. Zip. Nada... But...
You really should get out more. I have met the following that LOVE
their jobs... a co-worker next to me who comes to work at 4:30 and
works 12 hour days, for 8 hours pay, just because he loves it,.. the
installer of the new heating system where I work.... The plumber that
installed the system in the new building addition [he also loved his
six figure salary]...
the electrician, whom I know personally... my best friend who repairs
TVs and VCRs, He once told me he looks forward to getting out of bed
because he loves his work, personally, I think he's nuts.
As for me?.. I love my job but I probably would do something different
if I had the chance. And that "something" would still not involve a
degree.
>I've know a ton of docs, nurses, professors, accountants, attorneys,
>teachers, ad nauseum that could. Do *you* see any correlation? Nothing
>wrong with being a mechanic. Nope. Nosireebob. But I know darn few that
>can say they wouldn't trade it for the world. It may be what they do best,
>but if they had a chance, the ones I've known would have given their eye
>teeth not to have to bust knuckles and eat grit all day.
Ever had a doc with lousy bedside manner? I have and it's a sure sign
that he hates his work. My ex sister in law is a nurse. She loves her
job but would jump at the chance to do something different.
Your whole post boils down to you implying that any trades person is
just not as "good" as somebody with a degree.
>And I sure don't aspire for my daughters to work in a dry cleaning shop.
Who would? And who said anything like "dry cleaning shop" or anything
of the sort?
Peter F. DeMos
> I made myself quite clear..you just didn't get it.
and...
> Oh gimmie a break. Any person in high school who chooses a trade is
> looked down upon by college bound students and even the teachers. Did
> you see my earlier post about my high school guidance councilors? He
> was a pinhead.
and...
> Your whole post boils down to you implying that any trades person is
> just not as "good" as somebody with a degree.
There is not much to debate with against professional victims. On another
group we used to get attacked by hordes of college freshmen at Berkely as
racists. Every September we'd have a new influx of angry, resentful, "on a
mission for God" freshmen who were out to beat up people who they
perceived as "oppressors." It always resulted in a big ol' flame war for 2
or 3 months, which ended with those freshmen either getting destroyed and
leaving, or being assimilated into the group.
Your stance is preposterous, but I don't have the time or energy to play
with you regarding this. I'm just too darn oooooooooooolllllld....... Heh.
So, I'm dropping it. You wanna be a victim cuz you didn't go to college,
or perceive friends as being victims? More power to you. You win :-) You
are a victim, and you're right.
Robbin Spoonamore Hubbard
> ... I asked my boss if he would hire a person with a degree.
> A very quick and emphatic NO was the response. I asked him why. His
> answer was "A person with a degree is unstable. They will quickly jump
> ship for something better because they feel they are worth more
> because of the degree. After all, why would a person with a degree
> want to be a mechanic?"
This example is more a display of your boss's ignorance than anything
else. A person with a degree is unstable? Give me a break!
In any case, in those very rare instances where a degree would keep
someone from being considered for a job, it would be easy (as you
mentioned) to simply omit reference to a degree. What would hurt
someone's chances of being hired by your boss is not *having the
degree*, it's that they'd be applying to someone who had ridiculous
ideas about what a degree means.
Robbin
Kse63
If I understand Jim correctly, what he is saying is that ideally, you do what
you love for your job, whether or not it takes a college degree. Unfortunately,
this isn't always possible. I think that the world needs to continue to rotate
with an equal amount of college educated and non college educated folks. We all
learn. If you're a mechanic, how far do you get if you don't keep up on the
latest automotive technology. Not by guessing, or you're out of a job pretty
darn quick.
The cool thing is to be able to help kids focus earlier on what it is that they
love. Does your daughter love working with people's hair? Fine, let her get the
cosmetology degree. It's quick ( tho not easy ), and she has a skill. Later on,
she may decide she wants to own her own shop, she may then decide to take some
business courses. She's contributing to society, she's not on welfare, she is
happy with what she's doing. What's wrong with that?
My parents *forced* me to go to college before I was ready. The result was a
degree that I used for a total of 3 months a few years later. Since then, all
of my work has NOT involved my degree. NOW, I have returned to college to learn
what I want to learn and do the work that excites me. Do I resent them for
their actions? Yes!! Why? Because they were SO bent on me going "away to
college" that they couldn't see the effects of their pushing. I did poorly for
two quarters until I finally switched to a field closer to my interests. They
conceeded because at that point they just wanted me to "get a degree".....and
it's not the one I would have chosen, if I'd been given time to assess what I
enjoyed.
It got me nothing. If I worked in that field right now, I'd make 1/3 of what I
make out of it. I think that what we need to do is help our kids figure out
what it is that they're good at. How do they learn most effectively? Hands on
or by book? Do they like working with plants outside? Do they like plugging
away on a computer? Do they like helping people? Are they good artists?
WHAT???? THEN channel them into what they like in the best way that suits their
learning styles.
There are too many ways for kids to seek "higher education" today for this to
be such an "us against them" argument. By the time my youngest two get to
college age, heaven only knows what types of "higher learning" will be
available to them.
Do I expect all 4 of my kids to go to college? I'd love it, BUT what if they're
not cut out for that environment? What if it's too pressure filled? What if my
son would rather work all day as a landscaper or a back-hoe operator? Then I
have to live with it. It's his life, not mine. I can't make him aspire to my
hopes and dreams. He has to aspire to his own. I'd encourage him to seek SOME
sort of post-high school education, but that could be something other than
college.
Hopefully, the attitude of "If you don't have an MBA you're nothing" are almost
over. That attitude makes me sick. Plenty of people out there don't have what
it takes to reach that degree. That doesn't make them less of a human being. It
just means they understand their limits and work within them. Yes, ideally, we
all push beyond our comfort zone, but at what cost? I have come across more
than one person who is performing a "non college" job who was thrilled to
pieces with his/her job. What is wrong with that? Because it doesn't meet
someone elses standards? Bunk. Maybe those who voice the loudest opposition to
those folks are the ones who need to look more closely at how happy they are
with their job. Jealousy maybe? (that is *not* directed at anyone in
particular)
K
"Never above you. Never below you. Always beside you."
---Walter Winchell
darl...@hotmail.com
> Jim wrote, amongst other things:
> > I say education is great, but why should it zero in on a degree? What
> > is wrong with learning a trade? THAT has been my point.
> > Get a job you love, and you will never work a day in your life.
>
peter wrote:
> There's nothing wrong with learning a trade. It's just that I've known
> darn few mechanics that could preach that last sentence. Darn few welders,
> darn few ditchdiggers, darn few dock men. Actually Jim, when I think of
> it... I've known zero. None. Zip. Nada... But...
>
> I've know a ton of docs, nurses, professors, accountants, attorneys,
> teachers, ad nauseum that could. Do *you* see any correlation? Nothing
> wrong with being a mechanic. Nope. Nosireebob. But I know darn few that
> can say they wouldn't trade it for the world. It may be what they do best,
> but if they had a chance, the ones I've known would have given their eye
> teeth not to have to bust knuckles and eat grit all day.
Not to disagree with either of you men, but there are always exceptions.
I personally know a man that went through the steps and became a chiropractor.
He had a good practice and was making good money. He got fed up with all the
negatives associated with that line of work. Everyday he was dealing with
peoples complaints, aches and pains. The positive results of chiropractic work
are more long term as opposed to immediate. In two years time he was tired of
dealing with negetive feelings all day at work.
He quit to become a mechanic. His specialty is restoring old cars. He now has
a more positive day on the job. He like to see the more immediate results of
what he has worked for. Also he has a more free schedule to work when he
chooses, instead of normal doctor's hours. He is a much happier person even
though his job description and money earned is not as prestigious as one
would think of a chiropractor.
*Different strokes for different folks*, right?
Darlin'62
Julie
Re: the computer co setting up vocational training in the schools - is that a
great idea or what?! There are so many specific skills that aren't addressed in
college, that the kids coming out with a new degree don't have much hope of
earning more than $17- $20K (in our area) because they require so much training.
Julie
Pleiades wrote:
> Opus- wrote:
> >
> > On 19 Sep 1998 17:50:42 GMT, Julie <jul...@worldnet.att.net> spake
> > thusly:
> >
> > >Hi Opus -
> > >My opinions are based on my experience only, but I have *always* strongly
> > >encouraged Josh to go to college. In fact, when he was little I never
> > >spoke of it as an option, but a natural continuation after high school. He
> > >was absolutely shocked when he found out in first grade that it wasn't
> > >mandatory. :-)
> >
> > College is only one option. I am saying that there are hundreds of
> > other options that college does NOT offer. But those worthy options
> > have a stigma placed on them by the college bound.
> > Did you know that in Germany and Japan only 5% of students go beyond
> > high school? Those countries both refuse to compete in international
> > competitions and studies that determine which school system in which
> > country is "better". Interestingly enough, both countries are where
> > you find the very best engineers in the world.
> >
> > >I personally don't care if he wants to work at the video store on the
> > >corner, shovel shit or take up professional basket weaving. I do want him
> > >to have the foundation to do whatever he chooses to do at different stages
> > >in his life.
> > >
> > >Right now, I'm stuck in a field that I'm growing more and more weary of,
> > >but am lucky to be in considering my lack of education. I can't tell you
> > >what I'd give to have a few more options. Once Josh is off to school, I'm
> > >hoping to get back into it myself just to broaden my opportunities.
> >
> > Good for you, but for far too many people college=status.
> > I had a nice conversation with a professor at the University of
> > Winnipeg. He believes that 60% of students should not be there, mainly
> > because of parents shoving them there, ostensibly for bragging value.
> >
> > >I'm miles away from being a degree snob, but I think it can be extremely
> > >important in order to avoid limiting our kids' futures.
> >
> > I have nothing against education at all, but there is more than one
> > route a person can travel. Why should they be limited to just
> > college?
>
> I'm proud of my college degree, but I do think there's a problem with a
> society that defines success partly in terms of whether or not someone
> has a degree. There are a lot of jobs that we can't live without, and
> they don't all require a degree. There is a lot of pressure on kids
> because of an insistence that they go to college, that it's the only
> route to a successful future. I hope that we do move beyond this
> someday. I have one son who will undoubtedly go to college. It's how
> he sees his future. With my other son, it's hard for me to see a
> scenario in which he'd go to college. I'd certainly support that
> decision if it's the one he makes, but this kid has hated school since
> the first day of kindergarten and insists that he's allergic to it.
> Given his experience, I understand why he's reached the position that
> school is not healthy for children and other living things. :-)
>
> BTW, my brother doesn't have even a single semester of college under his
> belt, and he's financially more successful - much more successful - than
> I'll ever be. He's doing something that he loves and that he's good at.
>
> I was talking to a high school counselor a few days ago, and she was
> telling me about a new program run by some computer company. The idea
> is that a school district signs a contract with that company, and then
> the company comes in and sets up a training program for students who
> want to pursue this particular vocational program. I'm not sure if it's
> computer repair or...something related to computers. The students who
> complete the program successfully are hired by the computer company
> right out of high school at a very decent salary. I think we'd benefit
> if we had more programs like this in our schools. In this area,
> vocational programs tend to get cut due to fiscal belt-tightening.
>
> Wanda
Julie
forensics.
Julie
Dididiaz31 wrote:
> >I personally don't care if he wants to work at the video store on the corner,
> shovel shit or take up professional basket weaving.
>
> A good bachelors degree in psychology would help with the "shit shoveling" job.
> <teasing>
>
Julie
Julie
almost...@geocities.com wrote:
> In article <19980919182759...@ng42.aol.com>,
> didid...@aol.com (Dididiaz31) wrote:
> >
> > >I personally don't care if he wants to work at the video store on the corner,
> > shovel shit or take up professional basket weaving.
> >
> > A good bachelors degree in psychology would help with the "shit shoveling"
> job.
> > <teasing>
> >
>
> Hmmm, I thought a law degree would do that. Oh, my mistake, they are the ones
> that dish out the shit!
>
> > Didi, single mother to Caitlin, 9, Patrick, 7, and Meagan, 4.
> >
> > "A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against
> > it."
> > G.K. Chesterton
> >
>
> --
> Char
Julie
the degree is in. In my co, for example, we have a mathematician in customer
service, two finance graduates in marketing, one communications in travel, and
very few marketing grads, which is the focus of our business. It seems that
it's the fact you earned it as opposed to what you majored in in some
instances.
Julie
Opus- wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 00:07:19 GMT, "Mary Jo Sterns" <mjst...@istar.ca>
> spake thusly:
>
> >Opus, I agree that a "university degree" is not a necessity. I do believe
> >that an education is. So whether your child opts to learn a skill such as,
> >mechanic or pastry chef or spend their life at school and get a PhD, they
> >are learning and are getting an education. Eduation gives our children
> >choices. That is whats important. Your friend got educated and then made
> >her choice.. the donut shop. The donut shop was not here only choice.
> >That's the difference.
>
> I agree that education is necessary...I never said I didn't
>
> My friends degree has done nothing for her. It did not give her any
> choices, it reduced them. A degree in psychology can only do a few
> things, especially if it isn't want you REALLY want in the first
> place. And isn't that what really matters?
>
Julie
career, no matter what it is.
As far as *forcing* a kid to go to college - it can't be done, unless that child is
under the age of 18. It's too bad that kids feel that way, though, because they're
parents put on so much pressure.
I don't think there's anything wrong with encouraging college, but I wouldn't want
to be one of those people living through my kids, either! I think the key is
teaching them early on how to *not* limit themselves, but to see their lives in
terms of choices and opportunities. From there on out, hopefully, they'll make wise
decisions based on that foundation.
Julie
susan
>
> > Nicol wrote:
> > >
> > > My son has been in Kindergarten for a few weeks now. He's already bored,
> > > doesn't want to go, and just generally doesn't like it. I've been looking
> > > at the papers coming home, and I can't say I blame him. One of the "math"
> > > worksheets (I have a huge problem with worksheets for children, but that is
> > > another issue) asked students to identify objects on top, in the middle, in
> > > between, and on the bottom. Another one asked students to circle objects on
> > > the left and on the right in different colors. Activities in class include
> > > teaching children the letters of the alphabet and the sounds of each letter
> > > (no combinations thus far), and colors of objects.
> > >
> > > All of this, to me, seems really remedial. Andrew has known his colors
> > > since he was at least three years old, knows top from bottom and in between,
> > > knows right from left, and knows the alphabet (uppercase and lower) and
> > > their sounds. He was doing more challenging things in preschool last year!
He probably was. At this time of year what they're doing is testing all
the kids to see what level each is at. Chances are good that at least
half of Andrew's class is in the same boat as him. But there are those
few who didn't go to preschool, who have unstimulating home
environments, no parental participation, etc. etc. etc., and these
children do NOT know their colors, alphabet or numbers yet. The teacher
needs to find out right now, early in the year, what space each child is
in so that she can devise teaching plans that include everyone's level.
If he can just hang on for another few weeks - OR, and this is something
to consider. Ask for a meeting with the school officials and see if he
can be moved to Grade 1. Maybe he truly DOESN'T need kindergarten.
Julie
You sound a little bit defensive, as if you might be projecting an experience
you've had or an attitude you've run into on anyone who sees the value in a
college degree.
A lot of people here have been very clear that they don't believe it's the only
way to have a good job/career or to be happy, but have also stated that it may
open up more opportunities.
I hate to *clarify* (especially for Peter :-)), but I think he was talking more
about the degree to which a person's career is a part of them as opposed to those
who simply like (or even love) their jobs. Neither is good or bad, but it is a
difference. Can some mechanics feel that they were born to be a mechanic? I would
think so, but there may be other careers whose memberships have a higher
percentage who feel that way.
But, JMO...
Julie
Opus- wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:47:04 -0700, "Peter F. DeMos"
> <pet...@peterd.com> spake thusly:
>
> >Jim wrote, amongst other things:
> >
> >>> I've known some who denigrate the pursuit of education, and I never think
> >>> highly of them, at all. It sounds ignorant, and I'm shocked to hear you
> >>> doing it.
> >
> >> You should read my post a little more clearly. Where did I say
> >> education is a bad thing?
> >
> >Actually, my comprehension is just fine. If you wish to play spin doctor,
> >maybe you should post a little *less* clearly.
>
> I made myself quite clear..you just didn't get it. See below.
>
> >> I DID say this :
> >> "College is only one option. I am saying that there are hundreds of
> >> other options that college does NOT offer. But those worthy options
> >> have a stigma placed on them by the college bound."
> >
> >They haven't any stigma placed on them in my circles. Perhaps it's you and
> >your ideas that are feeling less than?
>
> Oh gimmie a break. Any person in high school who chooses a trade is
> looked down upon by college bound students and even the teachers. Did
> you see my earlier post about my high school guidance councilors? He
> was a pinhead.
>
> >> By the way, my friend could not find any job at all, untill she
> >> omitted the fact that she had a degree on the job applications. I
> >> personally thought it was silly of her to mention it on any
> >> application that didn't require a degree.
> >
> >Well... if you're applying to be a night clerk at the local 7/11 I might
> >agree with you. Ditto a night shift answering service person. Or a
> >janitor. Or a thousand other jobs I could think of. And if one has no
> >experience as a mechanic, and they want to be lead and service manager at
> >the local Ford shop, I suspect that degree or no, they'll be getting not
> >very far.
>
> Ahhh.. so you are implying that ALL jobs that don't require a degree
> are menial? I should introduce you to Fritz, a mechanic I know who
> drives a new Cadillac every year or my high school dropout boss who
> owns the business and lives in a quarter million dollar house. Pretty
> menial life.
>
> Since there were no openings requiring her degree anywhere in the
> city, she had to grab what she could. Her silly mistake was mentioning
> the degree.
>
> >> I say education is great, but why should it zero in on a degree? What
> >> is wrong with learning a trade? THAT has been my point.
> >> Get a job you love, and you will never work a day in your life.
> >
> >There's nothing wrong with learning a trade. It's just that I've known
> >darn few mechanics that could preach that last sentence. Darn few welders,
> >darn few ditchdiggers, darn few dock men. Actually Jim, when I think of
> >it... I've known zero. None. Zip. Nada... But...
>
> You really should get out more. I have met the following that LOVE
> their jobs... a co-worker next to me who comes to work at 4:30 and
> works 12 hour days, for 8 hours pay, just because he loves it,.. the
> installer of the new heating system where I work.... The plumber that
> installed the system in the new building addition [he also loved his
> six figure salary]...
> the electrician, whom I know personally... my best friend who repairs
> TVs and VCRs, He once told me he looks forward to getting out of bed
> because he loves his work, personally, I think he's nuts.
> As for me?.. I love my job but I probably would do something different
> if I had the chance. And that "something" would still not involve a
> degree.
>
> >I've know a ton of docs, nurses, professors, accountants, attorneys,
> >teachers, ad nauseum that could. Do *you* see any correlation? Nothing
> >wrong with being a mechanic. Nope. Nosireebob. But I know darn few that
> >can say they wouldn't trade it for the world. It may be what they do best,
> >but if they had a chance, the ones I've known would have given their eye
> >teeth not to have to bust knuckles and eat grit all day.
>
> Ever had a doc with lousy bedside manner? I have and it's a sure sign
> that he hates his work. My ex sister in law is a nurse. She loves her
> job but would jump at the chance to do something different.
>
> Your whole post boils down to you implying that any trades person is
> just not as "good" as somebody with a degree.
>
> >And I sure don't aspire for my daughters to work in a dry cleaning shop.
>
> Who would? And who said anything like "dry cleaning shop" or anything
> of the sort?
>
Opus-
<pet...@peterd.com> spake thusly:
>There is not much to debate with against professional victims. On another
>group we used to get attacked by hordes of college freshmen at Berkely as
>racists. Every September we'd have a new influx of angry, resentful, "on a
>mission for God" freshmen who were out to beat up people who they
>perceived as "oppressors." It always resulted in a big ol' flame war for 2
>or 3 months, which ended with those freshmen either getting destroyed and
>leaving, or being assimilated into the group.
Professional victim??? How in the blazes do I come across a victim? I
don't feel victimized or oppressed, just insulted. YOU are the one
who feels the need to degrade anyone without a degree.
How many farmers have degrees? Very few. How many love farm life and
would NOT give it up for anything? Almost all and YES I lived half my
childhood in a farming community. Are farmers "beneath" people with
degrees? Make sure your mouth isn'f full when you answer.
>Your stance is preposterous, but I don't have the time or energy to play
>with you regarding this. I'm just too darn oooooooooooolllllld....... Heh.
>So, I'm dropping it. You wanna be a victim cuz you didn't go to college,
>or perceive friends as being victims? More power to you. You win :-) You
>are a victim, and you're right.
I am no victim.. I made my choice and I am PROUD of my choice,,and
that is really what bothers you, isn't it. That is the reason you feel
the need to degrade those without degrees.
I am glad you are proud of your degree. You SHOULD be, but it is not
the only thing to be proud of.
Opus-
<rmhu...@indiana.edu> spake thusly:
>Opus- wrote:
>
>> ... I asked my boss if he would hire a person with a degree.
>> A very quick and emphatic NO was the response. I asked him why. His
>> answer was "A person with a degree is unstable. They will quickly jump
>> ship for something better because they feel they are worth more
>> because of the degree. After all, why would a person with a degree
>> want to be a mechanic?"
>
>This example is more a display of your boss's ignorance than anything
>else. A person with a degree is unstable? Give me a break!
I guess it's OK then that he got burned several times training people
who obviously had other plans. And he isn't the only one.
>In any case, in those very rare instances where a degree would keep
>someone from being considered for a job, it would be easy (as you
>mentioned) to simply omit reference to a degree. What would hurt
>someone's chances of being hired by your boss is not *having the
>degree*, it's that they'd be applying to someone who had ridiculous
>ideas about what a degree means.
So how would an employee with a degree help my employer? The term
"overqualified" has real meaning.
Opus-
>
>If I understand Jim correctly, what he is saying is that ideally, you do what
>you love for your job, whether or not it takes a college degree. Unfortunately,
>this isn't always possible. I think that the world needs to continue to rotate
>with an equal amount of college educated and non college educated folks. We all
>learn. If you're a mechanic, how far do you get if you don't keep up on the
>latest automotive technology. Not by guessing, or you're out of a job pretty
>darn quick.
BINGO!!!! At LAST somebody actually read my ENTIRE post. A degree is a
good, important option, but not the ONLY one.
>The cool thing is to be able to help kids focus earlier on what it is that they
>love. Does your daughter love working with people's hair? Fine, let her get the
>cosmetology degree. It's quick ( tho not easy ), and she has a skill. Later on,
>she may decide she wants to own her own shop, she may then decide to take some
>business courses. She's contributing to society, she's not on welfare, she is
>happy with what she's doing. What's wrong with that?
Exactly my thinking. If a person needs a degree to do what they truly
want, then I say go for the gusto. But I say take the time in making
ones choices.
>My parents *forced* me to go to college before I was ready. The result was a
>degree that I used for a total of 3 months a few years later. Since then, all
>of my work has NOT involved my degree. NOW, I have returned to college to learn
>what I want to learn and do the work that excites me. Do I resent them for
>their actions? Yes!! Why? Because they were SO bent on me going "away to
>college" that they couldn't see the effects of their pushing. I did poorly for
>two quarters until I finally switched to a field closer to my interests. They
>conceeded because at that point they just wanted me to "get a degree".....and
>it's not the one I would have chosen, if I'd been given time to assess what I
>enjoyed.
A degree for degree's sake, THAT is what I oppose. A degree in the
direction YOU want to travel can really help you along the way. In
many cases, it's indispensable.
>It got me nothing. If I worked in that field right now, I'd make 1/3 of what I
>make out of it. I think that what we need to do is help our kids figure out
>what it is that they're good at. How do they learn most effectively? Hands on
>or by book? Do they like working with plants outside? Do they like plugging
>away on a computer? Do they like helping people? Are they good artists?
>WHAT???? THEN channel them into what they like in the best way that suits their
>learning styles.
The best thing you can do for your children is to help them find their
own strengths. Children doing what their parents want as opposed to
what they want [and hating it] is a common plot device in many
stories, from The Waltons to Star Trek.
>There are too many ways for kids to seek "higher education" today for this to
>be such an "us against them" argument. By the time my youngest two get to
>college age, heaven only knows what types of "higher learning" will be
>available to them.
It's kinda exciting actually. Look at all the advances WE'VE
seen..imagine what they will see.
>Do I expect all 4 of my kids to go to college? I'd love it, BUT what if they're
>not cut out for that environment? What if it's too pressure filled? What if my
>son would rather work all day as a landscaper or a back-hoe operator? Then I
>have to live with it. It's his life, not mine. I can't make him aspire to my
>hopes and dreams. He has to aspire to his own. I'd encourage him to seek SOME
>sort of post-high school education, but that could be something other than
>college.
I want my daughter to be the best she can be..if that involves college
or university, more power to her and she has my full support. If not,
she STILL has my full support.
>Hopefully, the attitude of "If you don't have an MBA you're nothing" are almost
>over. That attitude makes me sick. Plenty of people out there don't have what
>it takes to reach that degree. That doesn't make them less of a human being. It
>just means they understand their limits and work within them. Yes, ideally, we
>all push beyond our comfort zone, but at what cost? I have come across more
>than one person who is performing a "non college" job who was thrilled to
>pieces with his/her job. What is wrong with that? Because it doesn't meet
>someone elses standards? Bunk. Maybe those who voice the loudest opposition to
>those folks are the ones who need to look more closely at how happy they are
>with their job. Jealousy maybe? (that is *not* directed at anyone in
>particular)
(but it COULD be :-) )
I have indeed noticed an improving attitude towards tradespeople in my
18 years as a mechanic. Yep, a person without a degree can actually be
happy!! Whoda thunk it...
Thank you for your post. It is nice that I am not the only one who
believes that life has more than one option.
Opus-
thusly:
>I agree 100% that no one should be made to feel inferior for their choice of
>career, no matter what it is.
>
>As far as *forcing* a kid to go to college - it can't be done, unless that child is
>under the age of 18. It's too bad that kids feel that way, though, because they're
>parents put on so much pressure.
No one can actually "force" their child to attend college but a
parents influence can be just as effective as physical force. The
pressure you mentioned.
>I don't think there's anything wrong with encouraging college, but I wouldn't want
>to be one of those people living through my kids, either! I think the key is
>teaching them early on how to *not* limit themselves, but to see their lives in
>terms of choices and opportunities. From there on out, hopefully, they'll make wise
>decisions based on that foundation.
That is the best we can do, give our children the tools to make their
own best choices.
Opus-
>Not to disagree with either of you men, but there are always exceptions.
Yes there is.
>I personally know a man that went through the steps and became a chiropractor.
>He had a good practice and was making good money. He got fed up with all the
>negatives associated with that line of work. Everyday he was dealing with
>peoples complaints, aches and pains. The positive results of chiropractic work
>are more long term as opposed to immediate. In two years time he was tired of
>dealing with negetive feelings all day at work.
Did you ever know why he became a chiropractor in the first place? I
am really curious.
>He quit to become a mechanic. His specialty is restoring old cars. He now has
>a more positive day on the job. He like to see the more immediate results of
>what he has worked for. Also he has a more free schedule to work when he
>chooses, instead of normal doctor's hours. He is a much happier person even
>though his job description and money earned is not as prestigious as one
>would think of a chiropractor.
>
>*Different strokes for different folks*, right?
Exactly my point. Imagine that, a person actually happy getting his
hands dirty. Can't happen, according to peterd.
Opus-
thusly:
>Opus, I want to say this the way I mean it, but will probably screw it up anyway!
>
>You sound a little bit defensive, as if you might be projecting an experience
>you've had or an attitude you've run into on anyone who sees the value in a
>college degree.
Oh I DO see value in a college degree, it's just not the only tool
available. And for too many I am afraid, it's a status symbol.
>A lot of people here have been very clear that they don't believe it's the only
>way to have a good job/career or to be happy, but have also stated that it may
>open up more opportunities.
>
>I hate to *clarify* (especially for Peter :-)), but I think he was talking more
>about the degree to which a person's career is a part of them as opposed to those
>who simply like (or even love) their jobs. Neither is good or bad, but it is a
>difference. Can some mechanics feel that they were born to be a mechanic? I would
>think so, but there may be other careers whose memberships have a higher
>percentage who feel that way.
Oh I am sure you are right. Some careers are very enjoyable jobs and
others are genuine passions. I personally believe medicine is a
genuine passion or SHOULD be, considering how much intense work it
takes to be one, not to mention the awesome responsibility.
As Irene Cara sang in Flashdance "Take your passion, and make it
happen."
janelaw
>
> So how would an employee with a degree help my employer? The term
> "overqualified" has real meaning.
Jim,
I consulted my husband on this. He's a happy guy. He works for
a general contractor. His boss loves him. He works about 60
hours a week. I'm not really sure what his job title is. He
seems to do a lot of carpentry, painting, demolition, plumbing,
electrical work, and concrete pouring. He works long hours at
hard physical work. Then he comes home happy.
My husband used to be CFO of a small high tech company. He
worked about the same amount of time per week. The job was
stressful, rather than physically demanding. Back then, he came
home tense. So he quit a few years ago and decided to be
whatever it is he is now. I imagine he'll pick up his GC
license someday soon, but he really has no desire to be a GC.
I asked him tonight whether he ever felt that he had wasted his
time getting his accounting degree. He said, "Never. I can
talk to the kids about marine biology, history, philosophy,
whatever. Maybe I haven't done much with the degree lately, but
the knowledge is invaluable." His college education enhances
his daily life in myriad intangible ways.
I think my husband's education also benefits his company in
several ways. In college he learned how to think problems
through, define tasks, set priorities, apply himself to the task
at hand, and (perhaps most important) research whatever he did
not know. It also gave him a foundation to work from in physics,
chemistry, math, business, spanish and other disciplines which
impact on his work. In the last couple of decades, all the
trades have changed rapidly with technological advances. Brute
strength and mechanical skill aren't enough.
The most important benefit I see is that my husband's boss can
ask him to do absolutely anything. He can shovel shit,
negotiate contracts, translate for the laborers, translate for
the electricians, haul cement bags, buy new software, appease
building inspectors, collect old debts, and everything in
between. As long as he gets to play with power tools all day,
he's perfectly willing to fill in wherever there is a gap.
I guess I'm saying that a college education can enhance your
life in many ways, no matter what your job is.
Jane
Mary Jo Sterns
of things.. not just those that relate to your job. Makes you a more well
rounded and interesting individual.
Post Secondary learning gives you the opportunity to learn "new stuff".
MJ
Kse63
Jim Wrote:
>BINGO!!!! At LAST somebody actually read my ENTIRE post. A degree is a
>good, important option, but not the ONLY one.
Why of course I read it, Jim Dear (sorry - we bought Lady & The Tramp last
week...still suffering the aftereffects ;-) )
>Exactly my thinking. If a person needs a degree to do what they truly
>want, then I say go for the gusto. But I say take the time in making
>ones choices.
This is exactly where we are restructuring our program at the elementary
school. We are using the (now) 8 Multiple Intelligences in combination with
Cynthia Tobias' "The Way They Learn" & "Every Child Can Succeed" to begin to
"steer" kids in a couple of ways. First of all - the multiple intelligences ask
the question "How are you smart" - NOT How smart are you. They look at the
things you excel at - like math, music, body movement, visual capabilities,
etc. They Cynthia Tobias element basically boils down to helping kids take
notice of their learning style and what form of learning works best for them.
Is the child a better group learner? Do they work better alone? Do they need to
read/hear/write/speak something to "get it" or can they just listen and get the
whole thing. Do they need to practice spelling words 10 times a night to pass
the test, or does once thru cover it.
Imagine a kid going into Jr Hi school being somewhat aware of what learning
style they have the most success with. Imagine them knowing "how they are
smart" and being able to focus on those abilities to build them, and their self
esteem. Imagine, if you can, graduating high school knowing these things.
Show of hands - how many people posting here currently work within a field that
is related to any post-high school education they received. Not me......
I'm not saying that in 6th grade, I think a kid should know they want to be a
landscaper or a mechanic or a lawyer. What I do hope, however, is that with our
help and guidance, kids begin to become *aware* of the things that interest
them the most. What we then do with that is present to them a few of the many
career possibilities within their interest. It is our goal to expose each child
in first and second grade to each of the multiple intelligences once - in a
play based fashion. For third and fourth grade, they explore each of them
again, in a slightly more focused manner (as yet to be decided), and in fifth
and sixth grade, they begin to assess which of those things intrigues them the
most, and they begin to explore the career possibilities in that area.
It's exciting, and I could drone on and on about it for hours, but I have a
catalog to deliver to 500 students this morning, so I must shower.
Have a great day everyone!
FoMoCoMan0
>If he wanted to become a mechanic,
Ummmmm, could we pick another occupation when discussing the value of higher
education..........
My self esteem and ego are really taking a beating here..........LOL
Steve
Nicol
FoMoCoMan0 wrote in message <19980922082234...@ng149.aol.com>...
Yes....but you ask a person which person they value most in a business-like
way in their lives, and many will say a good mechanic. I found the best
service shop in the greater central Indiana area. If I had to choose
between giving up my mechanic or giving up my doctor, I would give up my
doctor in a heartbeat!
Nicol
pet...@peterd.com
> It's exciting, and I could drone on and on about it for hours,
Ya don't say... really?
> but I have a
> catalog to deliver to 500 students this morning, so I must shower.
Eeeeewwwwwwww!!!! To quote SOMEone I've heard in the past:
"Way more information than I needed."
:-)
peterd
--The original peterd. Accept no substitutes.--
http://www.peterd.com
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
pet...@peterd.com
>>Not to disagree with either of you men, but there are always exceptions.
> Yes there is.
That's "are". Don't forget to match the person/s with the verb Jim :-)
> Imagine that, a person actually happy getting his
> hands dirty. Can't happen, according to peterd.
Exsqueeze me Jim? I already said "you win." "You're a victim." You want to
start a Kirbie here now?
Lololol.
Julie
manager at a large national company, and was really suffering due to the
hours, stress, etc.
One thing he loves to do is tinker. He's now started his own handyman
service and enjoying not only the job, but scheduling his own time, and
the relief that came from dumping the stress.
They're *both* much happier now. He felt good about making the decision
because it was a choice of several options open to him.
Julie
janelaw wrote:
> Opus- wrote:
> >
> > So how would an employee with a degree help my employer? The term
> > "overqualified" has real meaning.
> > --
> > jbu...@remove.videonwave.com
> > (Jim, single dad to Lesleigh 04/20/94)
> >
> >
>
Kse63
Peter D Wrote:
>> but I have a
>> catalog to deliver to 500 students this morning, so I must shower.
>
>Eeeeewwwwwwww!!!! To quote SOMEone I've heard in the past:
>
>"Way more information than I needed."
yes, well...my hair doesn't go ALL the way down my back, so I'm sure you're not
interested anyway......and the boobs went with the last breast-fed baby....
darl...@hotmail.com
jbu...@remove.videonwave.com wrote:
> Did you ever know why he became a chiropractor in the first place? I
> am really curious.
He chose to become a chiroprator. He thought it would be his lifelong career.
Darlin'62
Kse63
Darlin62 Wrote:
>In article <360c187a...@news.videon.wave.ca>,
> jbu...@remove.videonwave.com wrote:
>
>> Did you ever know why he became a chiropractor in the first place? I
>> am really curious.
>
>
>He chose to become a chiroprator. He thought it would be his lifelong
>career.
This was interesting. Until you mentioned it, I never gave much thought to the
fact that a Chiropractor would have this pov, but it makes perfect sense. I did
always wonder how the folks handle it when they're cancer docs or counselors,
etc. I'd never do well to work with children who are terminally ill - I'd be a
bawling mess all of the time...... me who cries at the sight of a high school
marching band!!
susan
> > >I'm miles away from being a degree snob, but I think it can be extremely
> > >important in order to avoid limiting our kids' futures.
> >
is but one option. There are many others. I think it's more important
that a parent worry about what KIND of young adult they have raised and
released into the world, than what they DO to earn their living. I read
a really good book once entitled (I think) "Do What You Love - the Money
Will Follow". I've made both my girls read it.
> > I have nothing against education at all, but there is more than one
> > route a person can travel. Why should they be limited to just
> > college?
>
> I was talking to a high school counselor a few days ago, and she was
> telling me about a new program run by some computer company. The idea
> is that a school district signs a contract with that company, and then
> the company comes in and sets up a training program for students who
> want to pursue this particular vocational program. I'm not sure if it's
> computer repair or...something related to computers. The students who
> complete the program successfully are hired by the computer company
> right out of high school at a very decent salary. I think we'd benefit
> if we had more programs like this in our schools. In this area,
> vocational programs tend to get cut due to fiscal belt-tightening.
>
> Wanda
That was happening here, too, but industry is starting to step in, like
you mentioned with the computer company above. They are seeing the
advantages in having a hand in pre-training their potential employees.
Then these people will be employed and will be ready-to-work instead of
requiring months of training. We already have a high school here where
I live in Canada that is technology-based. The equipment was supplied
free of charge by computer companies and the students walk out the door
after Grade 12 ready to go to work at entry-level positions with these
companies if they choose not to go on to further education. It's giving
a decided advantage to those students like your younger son and my
daughter who are "allergic" to school. They aren't dim-wits, losers or
nobodies. They just aren't engineers, doctors or lawyers!
susan
>
> This thread about education had got me thinking again about a pet
> peeve re: higher education and college.
>
> Most parents want their kids in college. Why?
> I am reminded of a close friend who was pushed into university in
> Calgary by her mother. This girl now works in a donut shop and enjoys
> it. She doesn't even admit almost having a masters degree. She
> despised the whole process.
>
I know many people in this boat.
> As a parent, would any of you be less "proud" if your child became a
> mechanic, plumber, carpenter or electrician instead of getting a
> degree?
Some people will have to answer "Yes" to this. I had a boss once whose
kids were University-pointed from the moment they were born. There was
never any question but that they would ALL (4 of them) get a minimum of
a Masters degree. They were poked and prodded and forced to excel from
the moment they entered kindergarten. It was sickening. None of the
kids had any kind of social life outside of school - their entire time
was spent studying. Even their family holidays were turned into
classrooms. I agree with teaching your kids about new things as you
come across them, but this family went to the 'nth degree. Each child
had to write a "test" which was drawn up by the parents after they
returned home from a vacation - listing the vegetation they learned
about, animals, new cities, etc. The oldest boy was 14 going on 80 when
I last saw him. These kids were stressed to the ultra-max. I lost
track of them, but I often wonder what happened - if one of them
snapped, or if any of them are working in "donut shops" now. The
disgusting part of this, whenever I had a discussion about futures with
these parents, was their attitude towards blue-collar professions. They
would be the first to complain if plumbers and garbage men disappeared
from this planet, but hey, they weren't prepared to have THEIR kids take
those jobs. No way.
My attitude towards my girls' futures has always been for me to
carefully remember that they will be working for a living long after I'm
dead. They should be doing something that THEY enjoy and find fulfilling
even if I think it's a dead-end. We are not our children's keepers. We
are here to guide them towards the process of making their OWN decisions
about their lives.
I will be most proud of my daughter if she does the best she
> can at what she WANTS to do. And if that means being a mechanic, all
> the better. [I am a mechanic, by the way]. But the choice MUST be hers
> with no outside influence. [did you know that Bill Gates is a
> university drop out?]
Did you know that Einstein never made it past Grade 6?
>
> I am reminded of a conversation I had with the highschool guidance
> councilor 20 years ago. When I told him I wanted to be either a
> mechanic or an electrician, he said "A mechanic??? But you have the
> potential to do so much BETTER" I was infuriated!! How many people
> believe that you are a "nobody" without a degree?
MANY! Many, many, many!! Just make sure you aren't one of them. Your
kids will thank you for it.
How many highschool
> students base their choices on those attitudes.
>
Many high school students have NO choice - their parents make it for
them.
> There is a whole world of things out there that DON'T require a degree
> to enjoy.
Well, if it comes right down to it, I would rather see my kids in a
2-year technical college learning a practical skill (mechanic, plastics
technician, welding, etc.) than dragging through 10 years of a Masters
program only to find that they are "overqualified" for every job they
apply for. And maybe finding out along the way that they hate their
major. The bottom line is that our children's lives and futures belong
to THEM to do with what they wish. Hopefully, they will all make the
right choices. Some of us didn't, and we've managed to live with the
consequences. I suspect our kids have the stuff that's required to live
with the consequences of their own bad decisions, should they make them.
Kadi
because of the experience I had in my field (gotten by working while in
college) it was NOT because of my degree (also in my field, which is
computers). And in further conversations with the people who make those
decisions in my company, they all told me that a degree is considered
either neutral (ie no effect on the final decision) or actually a negative.
They want to see real world experience. It doesn't have to be in our
field, but they want experience of some sort. They are willing to train
the person they hire if needed, but they don't consider a degree to be
proof of any real knowledge, or any trainability or work ethic, where as
experience is.
Kadi
> Or hurt it. I asked my boss if he would hire a person with a degree.
> A very quick and emphatic NO was the response. I asked him why. His
> answer was "A person with a degree is unstable. They will quickly jump
> ship for something better because they feel they are worth more
> because of the degree. After all, why would a person with a degree
> want to be a mechanic?" Interesting point I thought. This is why my
> friend could not mention her degree on most job applications.
susan
That is so TRUE! And to those plumbers who come out at 3:00 a.m. when
it's -30 degrees Celsius to install a new furnace - God bless you. All
the lawyers, doctors, engineers and rockets scientists can go to hell in
a basket - I wouldn't notice. But if my mechanic and plumber
disappeared....................well, I don't want to think about it.
susan
>
> darl...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > It's true that a person doesn't have to go to college to continue learning.
> > There are many ways to get educated. A person can learn anything that is
> > taught in college, on their own. The same can be said about high school.
> >
> > Unfortunately, there are many careers and jobs that require that peice of
> > paper that college gives them. That doesn't necessarily mean that they
> > learned anything, but they look for that.
> >
> > My son wants to be a teacher. He will have to go to college to get there.
> > That's just a fact of life. If he wanted to become a mechanic, I would
> > encourage a school that focuses on that. The school of higher education should
> > fit the goal they are attempting.
>
> More and more schools are hiring people who go through an alternative
> teacher's education program. Generally, this requires some college but
> not a degree. The student more or less interns during the first year of
> teaching to receive full certification.
Wanda, how does this work? I like the sound of this method, but don't
know anything about it.
susan
> One of my uncles used to be an efficiency expert. I have no idea how
> you go about preparing to be an efficiency expert, although I do know
> that he has numerous degrees culminating in a Ph.D., but that's not
> really the point. Jerry always insisted that when he went into a
> company for a consulting job, he first had to stop in the CEO's office
> because it was expected. But he said his second stop was always some
> little broom closet or cubbyhole where someone - a janitor, a night
> watchman, someone at the bottom of the company food chain, someone who'd
> been there for years although largely forgotten by the higher-ups -
> could tell you much more about the workings of the company than the CEO.
Amen!
>
> I think also of my dad and several of his co-workers who had been with a
> national telephone company for years, ever since WWII, but all took
> early retirement after trying to work under an idiot who knew nothing
> about what he was doing but did have the piece of paper that the company
> valued so highly. When all of the veteran workers transferred or took
> early retirement rather than work under this idiot, there was no one
> left who knew how to do the job.
>
My SO is a forest ranger who started off his career with a technical
school "diploma" (NOT a University degree) in horticulture. He was
hired by the government (Canadian Forest Services) and spent 35 years
there, becoming an insect and disease expert through the sweat of his
own hard labor. Two years ago his boss retired and they lodged a
Canada-wide search for a replacement. They hired a 26 year old
University graduate whose sum total working career had been spent on a
Christmas-tree farm. Go figure!
This fascination with a piece of paper just blows me away. Here's a guy
who can tell from 1500 feet up in the air in a single-engine plane what
disease is plaguing a stand of trees, being supervised by someone whose
total working career has revolved around growing Christmas trees for
commercial companies. BUT - HE has the almighty "piece of paper", so we
hire him and pay him the big bucks, and he sits on his duff while the
old-timers in the office go out, do the grunt work, and make the place
look good. I told my SO he should give two weeks' notice and leave.
Leave this guy stranded with actually having to get some dirt under his
nails. Maybe the higher-ups would sit up and take notice. When we stop
being fascinated with "credentials" and start being fascinated once
again with hard working, honest, loyal employees, the world will become
a much better place to live.
susan
>
> >I personally don't care if he wants to work at the video store on the corner,
> shovel shit or take up professional basket weaving.
>
> A good bachelors degree in psychology would help with the "shit shoveling" job.
How about Philosophy? That's the one that always fascinates me. What do
those people DO with those degrees?
Dididiaz31
>How about Philosophy? That's the one that always fascinates me. What do those
people DO with those degrees?
I think that they ponder as to "why" or "how" the shit should be
shoveled........
Didi, single mother to Caitlin, 9, Patrick, 7, and Meagan, 4.
"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against
it."
G.K. Chesterton
Pleiades
What they've done in TX is to identify the fields where there is a
shortage of qualified teachers - computer literacy, special ed., theater
and drama, etc. Then the teachers-to-be are trained, usually over two
summers and one Saturday each month, while they are teaching. Once they
finish the program, they are fully certified teachers. Some of the
smaller rural schools will even pick up the cost of the training if the
teachers agrees to stay in that district for 3-5 years. The cost is
around $3,000 dollars.
Wanda
Opus-
spake thusly:
>Nicol wrote:
>>
>> FoMoCoMan0 wrote in message <19980922082234...@ng149.aol.com>...
>> >
>> >>If he wanted to become a mechanic,
>> >
>> >Ummmmm, could we pick another occupation when discussing the value of
>> higher
>> >education..........
>> >My self esteem and ego are really taking a beating here..........LOL
>> >
>> >Steve
>>
>> Yes....but you ask a person which person they value most in a business-like
>> way in their lives, and many will say a good mechanic. I found the best
>> service shop in the greater central Indiana area. If I had to choose
>> between giving up my mechanic or giving up my doctor, I would give up my
>> doctor in a heartbeat!
>
>That is so TRUE! And to those plumbers who come out at 3:00 a.m. when
>it's -30 degrees Celsius to install a new furnace - God bless you. All
>the lawyers, doctors, engineers and rockets scientists can go to hell in
>a basket - I wouldn't notice. But if my mechanic and plumber
>disappeared....................well, I don't want to think about it.
You are truly beautiful people. It kinds chokes me up knowing that us
intrepid tradespersons are truly appreciated. I truly appreciate the
roto-rooter dude who came to my place on a Saturday night to ream out
my sewer pipe. My basement floor has fully recovered.
--
jbu...@remove.videonwave.com
(Jim, single dad to Lesleigh 04/20/94)
Opus-
I could never handle a job like that either. I'd probably crack up.
Opus-
spake thusly:
>> >
>> > >I'm miles away from being a degree snob, but I think it can be extremely
>> > >important in order to avoid limiting our kids' futures.
>> >
>It's "part" of the process - it isn't THE process. College/University
>is but one option. There are many others. I think it's more important
>that a parent worry about what KIND of young adult they have raised and
>released into the world, than what they DO to earn their living. I read
>a really good book once entitled (I think) "Do What You Love - the Money
>Will Follow". I've made both my girls read it.
I'll have to find that book. Do you know the authors name?
The only thing I really would discourage my daughter from becoming is
a lawyer. There isn't a more slimy profession, witness what happened
at Peggy's Cove.
Kse63
I have to agree with this plumber/mechanic/give up the doctor conversation!!! I
MISS my mechanic terribly. He was a smart-a*s, but he was awesome with a car. I
have been known to drive back to Toledo just to have car work done!! As for the
plumber, I haven't found one of those here that I like either!! This
conversation kinda bummed me out!! I don't like the doctor much either!!!
WOWsa.....
Kse63
Jim Wrote:
>The only thing I really would discourage my daughter from becoming is
>a lawyer. There isn't a more slimy profession, witness what happened
>at Peggy's Cove.
OK, so I don't watch the news much - and I don't bother with the newspaper
because I never have time to read it.....and while I have recently discovered a
wonderful news/talk radio station that I am starting to get good info from - I
have NO clue what Peggy's Cove is referring to!!!!
I admit it - I live in a cave.....I spend a little bit too much time working, a
little too much time researching, a little too much time studying, and maybe a
little too much time reading American Girl Books (not to myself - !!)
Sue me......but first - 'splain please????
Opus-
thusly:
>
>>How about Philosophy? That's the one that always fascinates me. What do those
>people DO with those degrees?
>
>I think that they ponder as to "why" or "how" the shit should be
>shoveled........
And while avoiding touching the shovel.
Opus-
>
>Jim Wrote:
>
>>The only thing I really would discourage my daughter from becoming is
>>a lawyer. There isn't a more slimy profession, witness what happened
>>at Peggy's Cove.
>
>OK, so I don't watch the news much - and I don't bother with the newspaper
>because I never have time to read it.....and while I have recently discovered a
>wonderful news/talk radio station that I am starting to get good info from - I
>have NO clue what Peggy's Cove is referring to!!!!
Wow..it was word headlines last week. Peggy's Cove is a little bay off
the coast of Nova Scotia here in Canada. About 2 weeks ago a Swissair
jet crashed about 8 miles offshore killing 229 people.
Before all the bodies and wreckage was recovered [they are still
searching] two American lawyers came up to the crash site to talk to
the families that Swissair flew in. Fucking vultures should be shot.
I'd rather see my daughter work as a hooker than a lawyer. At least
then she would have some honor.
>I admit it - I live in a cave.....I spend a little bit too much time working, a
>little too much time researching, a little too much time studying, and maybe a
>little too much time reading American Girl Books (not to myself - !!)
>Sue me......but first - 'splain please????
You really should get out more. ;-)
FoMoCoMan0
> Yes....but you ask a person which person they value most in a business-like
>>> way in their lives, and many will say a good mechanic.
>That is so TRUE! And to those plumbers who come out at 3:00 a.m. when
>>it's -30 degrees Celsius to install a new furnace - God bless you.
Well, I have been both a Plumber...........and now working as a Mechanic for a
Ford dealer. Both professions are looked upon as crooks...........Do I need
therapy for an underlaying need to be a crook?
To be honest.............I hate crooked mechanics..........they make us all
look bad.
Steve........one of millions of honest mechanics
FoMoCoMan0
>I have to agree with this plumber/mechanic/give up the doctor conversation!!!
>
Well..............I love my Plumber..............and I love my
Mechanic...........Oh wait...............its me.......
I hate my doctor, really do not care for my daughters
doctor.................REALLY HATE MY HMO..........
Steve
Opus-
thusly:
Yes indeed. I take pride in my work and I especially like hearing from
repeat customers. I like it a lot when a customer is shocked at how
cheap a repair bill can be at times. So many people expect to be
ripped off.
Kse63
STEVE!!
I just bought a ford!! Can I give you a call???
:)
Kse63
WELL why didn't you SAY airplane crash!!?? That part I knew! I just hadn't
heard the town name - or I had and dismissed it.....
Thanks!!
FoMoCoMan0
>I just bought a ford!! Can I give you a call???
>:)
Not at 3 AM I hope............
Steve
Robbin Spoonamore Hubbard
> To be honest.............I hate crooked mechanics..........they make us all
> look bad.
Like the slimy divorce lawyers make the *whole* profession look bad?
----
Robbin Spoonamore Hubbard
http://php.indiana.edu/~rmhubbar
Julie
Julie
Julie
Julie
Dididiaz31 wrote:
> >How about Philosophy? That's the one that always fascinates me. What do those
> people DO with those degrees?
>
> I think that they ponder as to "why" or "how" the shit should be
> shoveled........
>
susan
>
> Darlin62 Wrote:
>
> >In article <360c187a...@news.videon.wave.ca>,
> > jbu...@remove.videonwave.com wrote:
> >
> >> Did you ever know why he became a chiropractor in the first place? I
> >> am really curious.
> >
> >
> >He chose to become a chiroprator. He thought it would be his lifelong
> >career.
>
> This was interesting. Until you mentioned it, I never gave much thought to the
> fact that a Chiropractor would have this pov, but it makes perfect sense. I did
> always wonder how the folks handle it when they're cancer docs or counselors,
> etc. I'd never do well to work with children who are terminally ill - I'd be a
> bawling mess all of the time...... me who cries at the sight of a high school
> marching band!!
I work in an Oncology hospital and I've asked the nurses how they do it.
One of them said something that made a lot of sense. She said she
enjoyed every minute she spent with her patients, knowing full well with
many of them that she was not offering them a "cure" or even a "longer
life", but she felt good knowing that she had helped them along part of
their journey. I guess if you can look at it that way................
Also, she said that when someone died, there was another person in that
bed the next day needing her help, so she did not have time to dwell on
the loss. Otherwise, yes, I think anyone would just crack up completely
or else become a Teflon-coated emotionless robotron.
susan
>
> Yes indeed. I take pride in my work and I especially like hearing from
> repeat customers. I like it a lot when a customer is shocked at how
> cheap a repair bill can be at times. So many people expect to be
> ripped off.
>
I think a lot of women expect to be ripped off. There's this belief that
if a mechanic sees a woman coming in alone to their shop, they're just
fair game. I haven't found that. One time I felt the estimate was way
out of line so I went somewhere else, but I am not convinced that they
did it because I was a woman alone. I think it was just a
high-falootin' shop that catered to the upper crust - I was in the wrong
place. Period. Plus it helps that as soon as I became a single parent
I went to the local college and took the "Powder Puff Mechanic" course
for women (what a Godawful sexist name!). I empowered myself a little
bit with that course - I can now have a logical discussion with a
mechanic and understand what he/she is saying to me ,and I can disagree
if I think it's something else. Also, it helps that I drive a 12 year
old car (yes, there ARE advantages to owning old cars), that it isn't
full of computer chips and crap. I can open the hood and still see the
vital parts and repair a lot of the minor stuff myself. I installed a
new battery two days ago - something I would have paid about $10.00 to
have done in a shop. But I wouldn't trade my mechanic for all the PhD's
in the world. He's been servicing this car since it came off the line
at Subaru. He knows it better than I do.
susan
> >a really good book once entitled (I think) "Do What You Love - the Money
> >Will Follow". I've made both my girls read it.
>
> I'll have to find that book. Do you know the authors name?
No, sorry, but I'll go home tonight and get it for you.
>
> >That was happening here, too, but industry is starting to step in, like
> >you mentioned with the computer company above. They are seeing the
> >advantages in having a hand in pre-training their potential employees.
> >Then these people will be employed and will be ready-to-work instead of
> >requiring months of training. We already have a high school here where
> >I live in Canada that is technology-based. The equipment was supplied
> >free of charge by computer companies and the students walk out the door
> >after Grade 12 ready to go to work at entry-level positions with these
> >companies if they choose not to go on to further education. It's giving
> >a decided advantage to those students like your younger son and my
> >daughter who are "allergic" to school. They aren't dim-wits, losers or
> >nobodies. They just aren't engineers, doctors or lawyers!
>
> The only thing I really would discourage my daughter from becoming is
> a lawyer. There isn't a more slimy profession, witness what happened
> at Peggy's Cove.