What if you came out of your shell. . .
Rainier
It seems like extroverts get to fuck up as much as they want and suffer
no repurcussions. Take my girlfriend's flamboyant gay male friend. He
moved an hour away last December to live with his latest boy toy.
During this month, he completely forgot about all his old friends. No
phone calls, no visits. He ditched us all over the holidays for his new
man.
Guess what happened on New Year's Eve? His boyfriend kicked him out of
the house. And guess who took him right back in like the past month had
never happened? Why his old friends of course. Despite his obvious
disregard for their feelings, two of his abandoned friends are letting
him live rent-free under their roof until he gets his life back
together. Now that he has a job, him and my girlfriend are going to get
an apartment together in April.
Second example: my girlfriend. During the fall of 2004, she filled in
for two months while another teacher was on maternity leave. She has
spent the last fifteen months boring us with every last excrutiating
detail from this experience. Last night on our double date, she went
off on a tangent about how she made her fourth graders memorize the
Gettysburg Address. Needless to say, her digression lasted five times
as long as Mr. Lincoln's! Everyone was noticeably bored throughout and
finally the girl we were with changed the topic. Thank God!
The problem is my girlfriend constantly talks about stupid shit no one
else cares about YET she has 106 names in her cell phone! Same thing
with flamboyant gay man. Tons o' friends even though he treats them all
like shit.
Contrast that with me. Although I relapse occassionally, I can do a
spot-on imitation of an extrovert. Not Phillip Seymour Hoffman doing
Capote, mind you, but a close enough impersonation to get by.
But without my girlfriend around, I'm like Sonny without Cher. No one
wants me around. I have made numerous efforts to make friends in
college, all of which come to naught.
Two recent examples: Both of which occurred in study groups with men
I've taken several class with together. In the first group, the guy has
my phone number and calls me every Sunday night for help with whatever
project we're working on. Anyways the topic of golf came up in our
discussion. Ends up we both love the sport so I suggest we play when
the weather warms up.
Now for the second group. Different guy, this time the topic meandered
to tennis. We both love it so I broach the idea of us playing this
spring.
Guess what the result was each time? Both simply changed the topic and
didn't even dignify my invite with a response, let alone an excuse.
Third example:
I'm doing a group project with Amethyst the self-absorbed girl I like
and a second girl. Today we meet at a book store to work on it. A
little about Amethyst: she jokes around about her complete and utter
lack of a social life--a fact borne out by the Saturday night e-mails
she sends to us. I've also discovered through casual conversation she
has no boyfriend.
Enter me. I'm fairly charming. I make her laugh. We have developed a
rapport. The perfect cure for her social disease, correct? Wrong!
The second girl left early, leaving Amethyst and I alone. I plan to ask
her out as we leave the store. I turn for the door, assuming she will
follow but instead she heads to the checkout to purchase a book. She
could at least have said "Bye Rainier" or "See you Monday", but nope,
nothing. She has never called me by name nor initated a "see you later"
when I walk her down the stairs.
Today, she did ask about my life for the first time ever.
Amethyst: "Are you a history major?"
Rainier: "Yes."
Amethyst:"Good. My nephew is in junior high and he needs some help
writing a paper on the cold war."
Excellent! I get to tutor her nephew. How great is that?
I feel like a figure skater with flawless technique who scores a zero
on the artistic portion of the judging. I have no idea what in the hell
I'm doing wrong . . . Why do loudmouth bores and self-absorbed
narcisstists get to have all these wonderful friends but I'm left with
the three hundred pound table scraps no one else wants?
Pumpkinhead
"Rainier" <rainie...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1142211563....@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> . . . only to find no one likes you?
I think that's the reason why many people create a shell in the first place.
Solitary Soul
> . . . only to find no one likes you?
>
>It seems like extroverts get to fuck up as much as they want and suffer
>no repurcussions. Take my girlfriend's flamboyant gay male friend. He
>moved an hour away last December to live with his latest boy toy.
>During this month, he completely forgot about all his old friends. No
>phone calls, no visits. He ditched us all over the holidays for his new
>man.
>
>Guess what happened on New Year's Eve? His boyfriend kicked him out of
>the house. And guess who took him right back in like the past month had
>never happened? Why his old friends of course. Despite his obvious
>disregard for their feelings, two of his abandoned friends are letting
>him live rent-free under their roof until he gets his life back
>together.
In what way did he show an "obvious disregard" for their feelings?
I don't think that not having any contact with someone for a few weeks would qualify.
> Now that he has a job, him and my girlfriend are going to get
>an apartment together in April.
... and this doesn't bother you?
>Second example: my girlfriend. During the fall of 2004, she filled in
>for two months while another teacher was on maternity leave. She has
>spent the last fifteen months boring us with every last excrutiating
>detail from this experience. Last night on our double date, she went
>off on a tangent about how she made her fourth graders memorize the
>Gettysburg Address. Needless to say, her digression lasted five times
>as long as Mr. Lincoln's! Everyone was noticeably bored throughout and
>finally the girl we were with changed the topic. Thank God!
I realize that this is off-topic: What do you get out of the relationship
that you're having with your girlfriend?
It doesn't look to me like you enjoy being with her all that much.
>The problem is my girlfriend constantly talks about stupid shit no one
>else cares about YET she has 106 names in her cell phone!
Apparently, someone else likes to talk about "stupid shit" - what kind of
"stupid shit" has her interest most of the time?
How often does she have contact with those people?
What is your best estimation as to the percentage/number of those people
that she actually has any sort of meaningful conversation with within
a week's time?
She may not have as many "friends" (however you might define the term)
as you might perceive her to have.
> Same thing
>with flamboyant gay man. Tons o' friends even though he treats them all
>like shit.
Perhaps they have a certain degree of charm and charisma that some
of us seem to be lacking in.
>Contrast that with me. Although I relapse occassionally, I can do a
>spot-on imitation of an extrovert. Not Phillip Seymour Hoffman doing
>Capote, mind you, but a close enough impersonation to get by.
Maybe your "impersonation" isn't as good as you think it is: Perhaps the people
that you try to deceive in this manner are aware of the deception - or your act
doesn't appeal to them - rubs them the wrong way - and they have formed
a negative opinion of you - see you as the phony that you are
- but aren't telling it to your face out of politeness.
IOW: They just humor you - tolerate you - to only the extent that is necessary
to further their own interests.
>But without my girlfriend around, I'm like Sonny without Cher. No one
>wants me around. I have made numerous efforts to make friends in
>college, all of which come to naught.
Without meeting you personally, I (we) can only speculate.
I have the impression of you that you are someone who is TRYING
to be charming and charismatic - but comes up very short.
Michaela has often posted the advice that you should "fake it until
you can make it" - but there are those of us who can't seem to make it
- so we are just "fakes" TRYING to make it - and that gets us nowhere.
Learning to integrate certain personality attributes requires a certain
degree of "aptitude" (for lack of a better term), and I KNOW that I'm lacking
in that aptitude - and several others in this group are lacking it as well
- and that leads us back to a very good question that Mark Green has posted about
to a great extent in this group: How do you learn how to gain an appealing personality?
I dunno.
If someone has a good answer to this, please clue the rest of us in.
>Two recent examples: Both of which occurred in study groups with men
>I've taken several class with together. In the first group, the guy has
>my phone number and calls me every Sunday night for help with whatever
>project we're working on. Anyways the topic of golf came up in our
>discussion. Ends up we both love the sport so I suggest we play when
>the weather warms up.
>
>Now for the second group. Different guy, this time the topic meandered
>to tennis. We both love it so I broach the idea of us playing this
>spring.
>
>Guess what the result was each time? Both simply changed the topic and
>didn't even dignify my invite with a response, let alone an excuse.
It looks like you're putting out "negative vibes" - reset your "vibe-o-tron"
to a more pleasant setting. There are some people who are so off-putting
that they couldn't attract flies even if they were to stand in a tub of shit.
I know: I'm one of those people.
>Third example:
>
>I'm doing a group project with Amethyst the self-absorbed girl I like
>and a second girl. Today we meet at a book store to work on it. A
>little about Amethyst: she jokes around about her complete and utter
>lack of a social life--a fact borne out by the Saturday night e-mails
>she sends to us. I've also discovered through casual conversation she
>has no boyfriend.
>
>Enter me. I'm fairly charming. I make her laugh. We have developed a
>rapport. The perfect cure for her social disease, correct? Wrong!
>
>The second girl left early, leaving Amethyst and I alone. I plan to ask
>her out as we leave the store. I turn for the door, assuming she will
>follow but instead she heads to the checkout to purchase a book. She
>could at least have said "Bye Rainier" or "See you Monday", but nope,
>nothing. She has never called me by name nor initated a "see you later"
>when I walk her down the stairs.
You mentioned the fact that she's self-absorbed - so what did you expect?
If you want her opinions of you, then you'll have to ask her:
"Hey Amethyst, can you level with me for just a moment?
... be perfectly straight and forthright with me?
What do you think of me? Do you think that I'm a likeable person?
Do you like being around me? What do you like about me?
What do you NOT like about me?"
... then roll with it from there.
If you want those kinds of questions answered by self-absorbed people,
then you'll have to ASK them - straight up.
>Today, she did ask about my life for the first time ever.
>
>Amethyst: "Are you a history major?"
>Rainier: "Yes."
>Amethyst:"Good. My nephew is in junior high and he needs some help
>writing a paper on the cold war."
>
>Excellent! I get to tutor her nephew. How great is that?
You don't have to accept the challenge if you don't want to
- you could have told her "no" - it would be like having a backbone.
>I feel like a figure skater with flawless technique who scores a zero
>on the artistic portion of the judging.
I have to question as to whether your "technique" is as "flawless"
as you seem to think. As I stated before: I can't really make that
determination without getting to know you IRL.
> I have no idea what in the hell
>I'm doing wrong . . . Why do loudmouth bores and self-absorbed
>narcisstists get to have all these wonderful friends but I'm left with
>the three hundred pound table scraps no one else wants?
I might suggest that those "bores and narcissists" are being themselves
- they are who they present themselves to be - which makes them very
good at playing the role - mainly because they don't have to play it
- because they ARE it - they are not being phony about it.
Our personalities are a combination of certain personality attributes.
Those attributes are acquired by learning - usually by interacting with others
- and adopting those attributes that might "fit in" with the overall
composition of our basic identities - and a lot of that is dependant upon
our respective "aptitudes" - our capacities for learning those attributes
(which can be influenced by genetics, but to what extent I have no idea).
The task at hand is to find a particular set of attributes that has an
appeal within the social sphere that you are operating. Some people have
the ability to adjust and adapt to whatever social environment that they
might find themselves within - while others make the attempt and come up short.
A lot of this is cultural in nature, but it's not a simple matter of
adapting to the "cultural norm" - as that can vary greatly as you move
from one cultural domain to another. Someone from New York City might
come here to rural Texas, and think of us as a bunch of hicks, while we
might think of them as being a dumbass city dude - there are different
knowledge sets, to be sure, but it goes beyond that to include personality
attributes as well (both verbal and non-verbal).
The Bottom Line: Everyone needs to find their niche - find that
social/cultural domain where they can best fit in - adopting those
attributes that makes them a good fit - AS THEY ARE ABLE TO ADOPT THEM.
Dumb people get along very well with other dumb people, while nuclear physicists
prefer the company of other nuclear physicists.
The first step is to FIGURE OUT WHO THE HELL YOU ARE - and who it is
that you want to become - who you would LIKE to become - then figuring out
if you have the aptitude and personal resources to become that person
- then figure out just where exactly someone like that might be able to fit in
- and where exactly you would WANT to fit in.
... which of course is easier typed than done. <grin>
... but you have to start SOMEwhere.
For some people, this sort of thing comes naturally - they "just do it"
and it just happens for them - as they have the natural aptitude
- the innate talent to pull it off (lucky bastards). For guys like us,
we have to struggle just for a minimal achievement - and come to terms
with the possibility that there are some things that we are just not capable
of achieving - that is beyond our reach.
What can I say?
Life isn't fair - blame it on God.
If you cannot achieve the objective that you have set for your goal, then
there comes a time when you need to reassess the viability of that objective
- and ask yourself if it's REALLY worth achieving - and if it's really worth
the cost (and associated risks) involved. IOW: It might be time to cut your
losses and move on.
If your current personality isn't working out for you, then maybe it's time
for you to try on another.
.
.
Solitary Soul -> http://users3.ev1.net/~solitarysoul/
-----------------------------------------------------
Welcome to alt.support.shyness, also known as The *PAIN* Club.
- Solitary Soul
LisatheSequel
Seems to me you have no love or compassion in your heart for
anyone but yourself, and that is why you fail. You treat
encounters with others like business relationships,
expecting to get something for the time and effort you give.
Somewhere along the line, something endeared the gay man and
your girlfriend to the people who like them. Somewhere they
took time to help or touch other people, and they keep on
doing this whether you recognize it or not. Otherwise
people wouldn't tolerate their little peccadillos. In other
words, their friends are friends for a reason.
Until you learn to love without expecting anything in return
people will see your selfishness, will smell it like an odor
on you, and no one will truly be your friend or care about
you. I know this because it's something I have to learn too.
Antares
LisatheSequel wrote:
> Rainier wrote:
>
> > Amethyst: "Are you a history major?"
> > Rainier: "Yes."
> > Amethyst:"Good. My nephew is in junior high and he needs some help
> > writing a paper on the cold war."
> >
> > Excellent! I get to tutor her nephew. How great is that?
No one asks me for computer help nowadays. Back when I was in school,
though, people used to constantly mooch computer help off me --
classmates, friends of my parents', children of friends of my parents',
etc. My most memorable experience was helping this Taiwanese girl
through an entire semester in the naive belief that that would somehow
make her like me. Naturally, it did not.
The next time someone asks me for computer help, I'm going to suggest
they open up a command prompt and type "format c:". That will make all
their problems go away.
> >
> > I feel like a figure skater with flawless technique who scores a zero
> > on the artistic portion of the judging. I have no idea what in the hell
> > I'm doing wrong . . . Why do loudmouth bores and self-absorbed
> > narcisstists get to have all these wonderful friends but I'm left with
> > the three hundred pound table scraps no one else wants?
>
> Seems to me you have no love or compassion in your heart for
> anyone but yourself, and that is why you fail. You treat
> encounters with others like business relationships,
> expecting to get something for the time and effort you give.
That's a rather Christian view of things. I see assholes who have
great social lives all the time. There's this one asshole at work who
is the most despicable person I've met in the past few years, and he's
always going clubbing with friends, socializing with people, etc.
Being an asshole is not an impediment to making friends or getting a
girlfriend. Being shy, passive, having low self-esteem, and fearful is.
LisatheSequel
>>>I feel like a figure skater with flawless technique who scores a zero
>>>on the artistic portion of the judging. I have no idea what in the hell
>>>I'm doing wrong . . . Why do loudmouth bores and self-absorbed
>>>narcisstists get to have all these wonderful friends but I'm left with
>>>the three hundred pound table scraps no one else wants?
>>
>>Seems to me you have no love or compassion in your heart for
>>anyone but yourself, and that is why you fail. You treat
>>encounters with others like business relationships,
>>expecting to get something for the time and effort you give.
>
> That's a rather Christian view of things. I see assholes who have
> great social lives all the time. There's this one asshole at work who
> is the most despicable person I've met in the past few years, and he's
> always going clubbing with friends, socializing with people, etc.
>
> Being an asshole is not an impediment to making friends or getting a
> girlfriend. Being shy, passive, having low self-esteem, and fearful is.
Your opinion of this person's personality is subjective, and
since you're a self-described shy person and socially inept,
wouldn't it follow your opinion of what makes someone an
asshole could be flawed? Apparently the friends he's always
going clubbing and socializing with don't agree with you.
My position is: people aren't idiots. If someone has
friends, there's a reason. Since we don't, we stand to gain
a lot more by observing and learning than being self-righteous.
Antares
LisatheSequel wrote:
> Antares wrote:
>
> >>>I feel like a figure skater with flawless technique who scores a zero
> >>>on the artistic portion of the judging. I have no idea what in the hell
> >>>I'm doing wrong . . . Why do loudmouth bores and self-absorbed
> >>>narcisstists get to have all these wonderful friends but I'm left with
> >>>the three hundred pound table scraps no one else wants?
> >>
> >>Seems to me you have no love or compassion in your heart for
> >>anyone but yourself, and that is why you fail. You treat
> >>encounters with others like business relationships,
> >>expecting to get something for the time and effort you give.
> >
> > That's a rather Christian view of things. I see assholes who have
> > great social lives all the time. There's this one asshole at work who
> > is the most despicable person I've met in the past few years, and he's
> > always going clubbing with friends, socializing with people, etc.
> >
> > Being an asshole is not an impediment to making friends or getting a
> > girlfriend. Being shy, passive, having low self-esteem, and fearful is.
>
>
> Your opinion of this person's personality is subjective, and
> since you're a self-described shy person and socially inept,
> wouldn't it follow your opinion of what makes someone an
> asshole could be flawed?
My perception is actually usually pretty good. I have no trouble
developing models of people's behavior that then prove to be accurate
in predicting what they'll do or say. My incompetence is largely a
"performing" incompetence; I have trouble getting people to be my
friends.
I'm not worried about my subjectivity in assessing whether that guy's
an asshole. He's clearly an asshole. He talks like an asshole, acts
like an asshole, and is inconsiderate like an asshole.
> Apparently the friends he's always
> going clubbing and socializing with don't agree with you.
That's where you're wrong. Many people do not care about the virtue or
goodness of a person. They only care if he's fun or not. You can be
fun to be around, and still an asshole.
> My position is: people aren't idiots. If someone has
> friends, there's a reason. Since we don't, we stand to gain
> a lot more by observing and learning than being self-righteous.
At some point it's nice to draw conclusions, otherwise there's no point
in observation to begin with. And if you bias your decision-making
process to eventually lead to the conclusion that that person is really
"nice" after all, then what's the point in observation to begin with?
LisatheSequel
Alright then. If it's working for you why fix it. I
must've been wrong.
Antares
I just think they're unrelated issues. My social competence, or lack
thereof, has nothing to do with suspending judgement on certain people
being assholes.
Antares
Visi Caulk Mah Pnats wrote:
> want to be arround him.
Yup. That always puzzles me when people twist a discussion about
friends, or friend-making, into a discussion about character or virtue.
The reality is, a lot of people don't care too much about that, as
long as the person's a good drinking buddy.
Amplitude Modulation
Thank You for the excellent post! You pretty much sum up my frustration
here.
All I can say is that human relationships are far more complex than what
meets the eye.
It's like playing in a band. You can know all the techniques and
music theories but when two or more people just start to play things just
"click". The problem with us shy folks is that things never "click"
socially. If society is an orchestra then we, the shy, are the kazoo
players backstage in the janitors closet.
Amplitude Modulation
> Seems to me you have no love or compassion in your heart for
> anyone but yourself, and that is why you fail. You treat
> encounters with others like business relationships,
> expecting to get something for the time and effort you give.
>
> Somewhere along the line, something endeared the gay man and
> your girlfriend to the people who like them. Somewhere they
> took time to help or touch other people, and they keep on
> doing this whether you recognize it or not. Otherwise
> people wouldn't tolerate their little peccadillos. In other
> words, their friends are friends for a reason.
>
> Until you learn to love without expecting anything in return
> people will see your selfishness, will smell it like an odor
> on you, and no one will truly be your friend or care about
> you. I know this because it's something I have to learn too.
Good theory but I can't agree. I have seen many cases where selfish people
are raised up while the "givers" are kicked to the curb.
void *
"LisatheSequel" <dontm...@goaway.com> wrote in message
news:dv3c10$6uk$1...@newsreader3.netcologne.de...
>
> Seems to me you have no love or compassion in your heart for anyone but
> yourself, and that is why you fail. You treat encounters with others like
> business relationships, expecting to get something for the time and effort
> you give.
>
> Somewhere along the line, something endeared the gay man and your
> girlfriend to the people who like them. Somewhere they took time to help
> or touch other people, and they keep on doing this whether you recognize
> it or not. Otherwise people wouldn't tolerate their little peccadillos.
> In other words, their friends are friends for a reason.
>
> Until you learn to love without expecting anything in return people will
> see your selfishness, will smell it like an odor on you, and no one will
> truly be your friend or care about you. I know this because it's
> something I have to learn too.
They may say it's you should help without expecting anything in return yada,
blah, etc; but just look who's the one asking for help/love/whatever, look
who would be obligated to return the favour...and who's the one saying you
should help without expecting anything in return. Hmmm. I think I'll go ask
my boss to pay me without expecting any work, and then I'll try emotionally
blackmail him into agreeing by making him feel bad about himself when he
says "no!".
They may want nothing to do him (Rainer, Antares, but it could apply
generally to anyone in here) but they sure don't mind trying it on when they
want something from us. It's just plain exploitation and manipulation, they
know it, and they don't mind doing it.
I'm put in mind of Sadboy's morality (which I happen to share) here. That
is, it's ok for them to go on about helping/whatever with expecting any
returns, but since they're in possession of what they want/need (socially)
anyway, it's hardly a magnanimous gesture. I'd like to see them try and say
the same thing if they were in Rainer's position. I can't buy that crap when
one moment they're all "go away and know your place, loser! Nobody wants
anything to do with you", then later on it's "Hi! How's you're
weekend...how's this...how's that...you know this...really that's so
interesting...blah blah...oh, you're also taking that C programming class
aren't you?..." Don't be taken in by these sociological mechanisms which are
designed solely to subjugate the likes of us and to maintain the social
order (of which we are at the bottom of).
void *
"Solitary Soul" <solitarys...@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:qfi91256nef6arlvt...@4ax.com...
> On 12 Mar 2006 16:59:24 -0800, "Rainier" <rainie...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Contrast that with me. Although I relapse occassionally, I can do a
>>spot-on imitation of an extrovert. Not Phillip Seymour Hoffman doing
>>Capote, mind you, but a close enough impersonation to get by.
>
> Maybe your "impersonation" isn't as good as you think it is: Perhaps the
> people that you try to deceive in this manner are aware of the deception -
> or your act doesn't appeal to them - rubs them the wrong way - and they
> have formed a negative opinion of you - see you as the phony that you are
> - but aren't telling it to your face out of politeness.
>
> IOW: They just humor you - tolerate you - to only the extent that is
> necessary to further their own interests.
And people in this group think Rainier's a manipulative asshole? Heh.
MrWigglesworth
Well duh, that's why people become shy in the first place.
>Take my girlfriend's flamboyant gay male friend. He
>moved an hour away last December to live with his latest boy toy.
>During this month, he completely forgot about all his old friends. No
>phone calls, no visits. He ditched us all over the holidays for his new
>man.
I don't think his actions were that bad. Most people tend to ignore
their friends when they start a new relationship.
>During the fall of 2004, she filled in
>for two months while another teacher was on maternity leave. She has
>spent the last fifteen months boring us with every last excrutiating
>detail from this experience.
Aren't we all guilty of boring people now and again? Once again I say
WHY are you with this woman?
>She could at least have said "Bye Rainier" or "See you Monday", but nope,
>nothing. She has never called me by name nor initated a "see you later"
>when I walk her down the stairs.
You describe her as "self-absorbed" and then you are surprised when she
acts that way.
>Excellent! I get to tutor her nephew. How great is that?
Uhh.. you could have refused.
>I feel like a figure skater with flawless technique who scores a zero
>on the artistic portion of the judging. I have no idea what in the hell
>I'm doing wrong . . . Why do loudmouth bores and self-absorbed
>narcisstists get to have all these wonderful friends but I'm left with
>the three hundred pound table scraps no one else wants?
You can claim to be charming as much as you want but none of us know
for sure. In the absence of any other witnesses, I'm inclined to
believe your "extrovert" impression isn't as convincing as you think.
Perhaps you come across as someone who tries way too hard?
anbi
> you're a self-described shy person and socially inept, wouldn't it
> follow your opinion of what makes someone an asshole could be flawed?
> Apparently the friends he's always going clubbing and socializing with
> don't agree with you. My position is: people aren't idiots. If someone
> has friends, there's a reason. Since we don't, we stand to gain a lot
> more by observing and learning than being self-righteous.
You are wrong lisa. Time and time again I have seen charismatic people
treat their friends badly. Charismatic people are socially in-demand and
they know it.
It's like a woman in an abusive relationship. Who cares if she gets
something out of the relationship... the man's behaviour is wrong.
Lash Rambo
@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> . . . only to find no one likes you?
If I felt it was worth the time investment, I'd work on becoming more
likable.
LisatheSequel
I'm sorry, I don't understand any of that. I'm not trying
to be deliberately stupid, I think we're coming from two
different directions. I didn't mean it to go as far as
being a sucker or a saint. Let me try this again.
I've just lately reached out to people I didn't know in an
attempt to make friends. These different personalities and
different ways of doing things grated on my sensitivity but
I continued to reach out, talk, spend time, listen,
participate, and just now I'm getting invited out to do
things, invited to join the group - which is the goal,
right? To stop being shy, stop being isolated and start
being a part of social things.
If I went away from someone because I felt they began to
impose* on me I wouldn't get anywhere. This is exactly what
I've done all my life and I just now begin to realize it's
selfish. People have friends, real friends - not just those
who think they can get something for nothing - because they
care and try. When Rainier said Riki got on his nerves with
her boring stories, I identified with that because I've had
it happen with people around me too. In the past I'd think
just as he did and find any excuse to get away. I'd look at
a person from the perspective of their entertainment value
and not as a person, and act immediately to make myself
comfortable at any cost.
But now I don't think it's fair to label people like that.
What you see when you encounter someone one moment won't be
what they are the next. Just like you are not your bad
mood, good mood, good void*, bad void*, but the sum of all
parts. I guess I'm trying to say you can't judge people so
harshly if you want to have friends. You have to take into
account the good with the bad, endure the parts you don't
like, encourage the ones you do. Because this is what other
people who are willing to take you on as a friend are doing
for *you*. And this is the part of being social I think
I've missed out learning somewhere and a big part of why I
don't have friends today.
And what I meant most for Rainier was, if I sat around
thinking of myself all the time and what people could do for
me I'm killing my goal before I begin.
(Does that make any sense? It's *real* early here and I'm
still half asleep.)
*level of imposition here is understood to be minor,
ie-someone telling boring stories, needing somewhere to
sleep for a couple days, etc. But while I'm down here let
me say it is perfectly normal for someone who begins a new
relationship to disappear socially for a time in order to
get adjusted to the new person in their life. Everyone I've
ever known does this. They don't stay away indefinitely.
LisatheSequel
What SS said there is possible, but nothing more than
speculation at this point.
LisatheSequel
So I'll leave it to Rainer to say whether or not the people
in his story are charismatic. I didn't understand it that
way. If that's the case he needs to quit worrying about
them and get in with people he can interact with in a normal
way.
And if that's the case, it leaves me wondering why he'd fall
in with such people in the first place, when it's obvious
they don't have it to give and there's no satisfaction to be
had there.
michaela
Which comes first? People not liking you or the defense mechanism?
Perhaps the "popular" people also encountered someone
who didn't like them too, but they were so busy having fun
they didn't notice.
- Michaela
michaela
> Seems to me you have no love or compassion in your heart for
> anyone but yourself, and that is why you fail. You treat
> encounters with others like business relationships,
> expecting to get something for the time and effort you give.
>
> Somewhere along the line, something endeared the gay man and
> your girlfriend to the people who like them. Somewhere they
> took time to help or touch other people, and they keep on
> doing this whether you recognize it or not. Otherwise
> people wouldn't tolerate their little peccadillos. In other
> words, their friends are friends for a reason.
>
> Until you learn to love without expecting anything in return
> people will see your selfishness, will smell it like an odor
> on you, and no one will truly be your friend or care about
> you. I know this because it's something I have to learn too.
I like your post.
A psychologist asked a group of college students to jot down
the initials of the people they disliked. Some students could
only think of one person; others listed up to fourteen initials.
Those who disliked the largest number of people were themselves
the most widely disliked. Equally true, those who liked the largest
number of people also tend to be the most liked.
What goes round comes round. The world reflects or gives us
back what we put out there. IT doesn't always come back in
the same form, or even from the same person, but the world
is a mirror.
I got this almost verbatim from "Living on Purpose" by Dan Millman,
it's in other books in other people's words too.
- Michaela
michaela
> . . . only to find no one likes you?
>
> It seems like extroverts get to fuck up as much as they want and
> suffer no repurcussions. Take my girlfriend's flamboyant gay male
> friend. He moved an hour away last December to live with his latest
> boy toy. During this month, he completely forgot about all his old
> friends. No phone calls, no visits. He ditched us all over the
> holidays for his new man.
While I've _never_ cut my friends out for a guy, where I come from
this is pretty acceptable behaviour. I've never understood it. And
today I know why: if you put yourself entirely in another person's
world and forget your own world you stand a greater chance of
losing.
A similar dynamic occurs with people who seem to have large doses
of power: to maintain your power you probably have to keep your
nearest-dearest thoughts to yourself lest you expose your weaknesses
to your potential enemy.
If you keep quiet you remain a mystery. But you don't get to enjoy
community etc.
Trade-off.
> Guess what happened on New Year's Eve? His boyfriend kicked him out of
> the house.
Well he gave up his own life. Lost his mystery. "Ok. I got you under
control now. Bo-o-ring."
Of course there may be more to it than this, but ime it's a biggie.
And guess who took him right back in like the past month
> had never happened? Why his old friends of course. Despite his obvious
> disregard for their feelings, two of his abandoned friends are letting
> him live rent-free under their roof until he gets his life back
> together. Now that he has a job, him and my girlfriend are going to
> get an apartment together in April.
>
> Second example: my girlfriend. During the fall of 2004, she filled in
> for two months while another teacher was on maternity leave. She has
> spent the last fifteen months boring us with every last excrutiating
> detail from this experience. Last night on our double date, she went
> off on a tangent about how she made her fourth graders memorize the
> Gettysburg Address. Needless to say, her digression lasted five times
> as long as Mr. Lincoln's! Everyone was noticeably bored throughout and
> finally the girl we were with changed the topic. Thank God!
Bernd posted something involving cartoons recently that spoke about
this. It was a potentially important thread but perhaps he could've
done more to make it discussablonious... I seem to have misplaced
it.
> The problem is my girlfriend constantly talks about stupid shit no one
> else cares about YET she has 106 names in her cell phone!
Yeh. And she's your gf.
Same thing
> with flamboyant gay man. Tons o' friends even though he treats them
> all like shit.
>
> Contrast that with me. Although I relapse occassionally, I can do a
> spot-on imitation of an extrovert. Not Phillip Seymour Hoffman doing
> Capote, mind you, but a close enough impersonation to get by.
>
> But without my girlfriend around, I'm like Sonny without Cher. No one
> wants me around. I have made numerous efforts to make friends in
> college, all of which come to naught.
>
> Two recent examples: Both of which occurred in study groups with men
> I've taken several class with together. In the first group, the guy
> has my phone number and calls me every Sunday night for help with
> whatever project we're working on. Anyways the topic of golf came up
> in our discussion. Ends up we both love the sport so I suggest we
> play when the weather warms up.
Don't be there next time he phones.
> Now for the second group. Different guy, this time the topic meandered
> to tennis. We both love it so I broach the idea of us playing this
> spring.
>
> Guess what the result was each time? Both simply changed the topic and
> didn't even dignify my invite with a response, let alone an excuse.
Hmmm. Are these guys (at least the homework one if not the tennis one)
using you for their own ends?
> Third example:
>
> I'm doing a group project with Amethyst the self-absorbed girl I like
Amethyst is self-absorbed?
Have you read your own post?
> and a second girl. Today we meet at a book store to work on it. A
> little about Amethyst: she jokes around about her complete and utter
> lack of a social life--a fact borne out by the Saturday night e-mails
> she sends to us. I've also discovered through casual conversation she
> has no boyfriend.
>
> Enter me. I'm fairly charming. I make her laugh. We have developed a
> rapport. The perfect cure for her social disease, correct? Wrong!
>
> The second girl left early, leaving Amethyst and I alone. I plan to
> ask her out as we leave the store. I turn for the door, assuming she
> will follow but instead she heads to the checkout to purchase a book.
> She could at least have said "Bye Rainier" or "See you Monday", but
> nope, nothing. She has never called me by name nor initated a "see
> you later" when I walk her down the stairs.
>
> Today, she did ask about my life for the first time ever.
>
> Amethyst: "Are you a history major?"
> Rainier: "Yes."
> Amethyst:"Good. My nephew is in junior high and he needs some help
> writing a paper on the cold war."
>
> Excellent! I get to tutor her nephew. How great is that?
You'll probably get more positive responses from her later on down
the line if you put her off about the nephew now (insert quote on
longterm gains here). Look. While she may not admit to it -even
to herself- she prolly senses you like her otherwise she wouldn't
assume so much power over you. It's subtle, but by turning her
down you're saying "I can't be controlled by you." And you'll be
giving her something to think about.
I mean, look how much time you're devoting to the theme of this
post. Figures it'll work the other way round too, doesn't it?
> I feel like a figure skater with flawless technique who scores a zero
> on the artistic portion of the judging. I have no idea what in the
> hell I'm doing wrong . . . Why do loudmouth bores and self-absorbed
> narcisstists get to have all these wonderful friends but I'm left with
> the three hundred pound table scraps no one else wants?
I don't have the answer and I've often wondered about this myself.
I can only point to mystery (being mentally and physically unavailable
cos there's things going on in your life). By creating mystery you
create something from nothing. People seem to have to grow in
our imagination before we want to invest time in them. The lonelier
we are the more likely we will be open to growing other people in
our heads and coming across as needy.
Whereas really busy people don't have time to let people grow
much in their heads. I better stop now, cos I can sense my own
words are going to come back and bite me.
- Michaela
LisatheSequel
They're never going to accept it but it was nice to see it
anyway. Well, maybe I shouldn't say "never". Somewhere out
there there might be someone having a moment of clarity and
seeing it for the truth.
void *
<michaela> wrote in message news:JuqdnYSgyrM...@is.co.za...
>
> A psychologist asked a group of college students to jot down
> the initials of the people they disliked. Some students could
> only think of one person; others listed up to fourteen initials.
> Those who disliked the largest number of people were themselves
> the most widely disliked. Equally true, those who liked the largest
> number of people also tend to be the most liked.
Which came first?
void *
>
> I'm sorry, I don't understand any of that. I'm not trying to be
> deliberately stupid
It's my fault for making several critical typos despite supposedly proof
reading before sending it.
> If I went away from someone because I felt they began to impose* on me I
> wouldn't get anywhere. This is exactly what I've done all my life and I
> just now begin to realize it's selfish. People have friends, real
> friends - not just those who think they can get something for nothing -
> because they care and try. When Rainier said Riki got on his nerves with
> her boring stories, I identified with that because I've had it happen with
> people around me too. In the past I'd think just as he did and find any
> excuse to get away. I'd look at a person from the perspective of their
> entertainment value and not as a person, and act immediately to make
> myself comfortable at any cost.
So you're willing to tolerate people's foibles in order to get what you
want: "invited out to do things, invited to join the group". Nothing wrong
with that. As I see it Rainer's complaint is that he's reaching out but
getting nothing other than people taking advantage.
Rainier
Solitary Soul wrote:
> In what way did he show an "obvious disregard" for their feelings?
>
> I don't think that not having any contact with someone for a few weeks would qualify.
He is my girlfriend's best friend and they used to see one another
every day. Then when the new man came around, she didn't hear a word
from him for an entire month. So that is quite rude to say the least.
> > Now that he has a job, him and my girlfriend are going to get
> >an apartment together in April.
>
> ... and this doesn't bother you?
It's better than me living with her! :)
> I realize that this is off-topic: What do you get out of the relationship
> that you're having with your girlfriend?
Nobody else wants me around so staying with her prevents me from
becoming totally isolated.
> Apparently, someone else likes to talk about "stupid shit" - what kind of
> "stupid shit" has her interest most of the time?
Mostly she bitches about work, bills, her family and traffic.
> What is your best estimation as to the percentage/number of those people
> that she actually has any sort of meaningful conversation with within
> a week's time?
Probably around a dozen of them.
> Perhaps they have a certain degree of charm and charisma that some
> of us seem to be lacking in.
Normals would consider them both charming. The gay guy is the spitting
image of Jack from "Will and Grace". Meanwhile my girlfriend comes
across as the large and in charge black woman in the Queen Latifah
mold. Quite frankly, I never understood what normal people find so damn
charming about obnoxious loudmouths such as these two . . .
> You mentioned the fact that she's self-absorbed - so what did you expect?
Part of me feels she should be thankful I take an interest in her.
She's mentioned several times she has no social life. She is plain and
does nothing but bitch about work and school. IOW, she doesn't have
much social capital so you'd think she'd be more appreciative when
someone takes an interest in her.
> If you want her opinions of you, then you'll have to ask her:
> "Hey Amethyst, can you level with me for just a moment?
> ... be perfectly straight and forthright with me?
> What do you think of me? Do you think that I'm a likeable person?
> Do you like being around me? What do you like about me?
> What do you NOT like about me?"
>
> ... then roll with it from there.
>
> If you want those kinds of questions answered by self-absorbed people,
> then you'll have to ASK them - straight up.
Have you ever been that blunt with people? And if so, what kind of
reaction did you get?
I don't think I could ever act that needy in front of someone.
> You don't have to accept the challenge if you don't want to
> - you could have told her "no" - it would be like having a backbone.
I said I'd see if I could find him some sources for his paper, which I
failed to do by the way. So I did show a little backbone.
> If you cannot achieve the objective that you have set for your goal, then
> there comes a time when you need to reassess the viability of that objective
> - and ask yourself if it's REALLY worth achieving - and if it's really worth
> the cost (and associated risks) involved. IOW: It might be time to cut your
> losses and move on.
I feel I'm entitled to have friends just like everybody else. I'm not
asking for much, just a friend or two . . . It's hard to relinquish
such a seemingly simple dream.
-rainier
Rainier
> If I went away from someone because I felt they began to
> impose* on me I wouldn't get anywhere. This is exactly what
> I've done all my life and I just now begin to realize it's
> selfish. People have friends, real friends - not just those
> who think they can get something for nothing - because they
> care and try. When Rainier said Riki got on his nerves with
> her boring stories, I identified with that because I've had
> it happen with people around me too. In the past I'd think
> just as he did and find any excuse to get away.
> I'd look at a person from the perspective of their entertainment value
> and not as a person, and act immediately to make myself
> comfortable at any cost.
Here's what I meant. Why can people like my girlfriend tell boring,
long-ass stories, whine and dominate conversations YET still be people
magnets?
But someone like me, who talks AND listens, who never whines anywhere
but on-line and who can make people smile and laugh and shows genuine
interest in their lives; get nowhere?
Rainier
michaela wrote:
> I don't have the answer and I've often wondered about this myself.
> I can only point to mystery (being mentally and physically unavailable
> cos there's things going on in your life). By creating mystery you
> create something from nothing. People seem to have to grow in
> our imagination before we want to invest time in them. The lonelier
> we are the more likely we will be open to growing other people in
> our heads and coming across as needy.
>
> Whereas really busy people don't have time to let people grow
> much in their heads. I better stop now, cos I can sense my own
> words are going to come back and bite me.
People take an "out-of-sight, out-of-mind" approach with me. When I
make myself mentally and physically unavailable they simply do not
care. For instance, Monday I did not speak to Amethyst in class. Guess
what? She didn't even notice.
Whenever I stop taking the initiative, I fall out of other people's
lives. Examples:
Last spring, I went on several double dates with a friend from high
school. I was always the one who called to make the dates so last March
I decided to wait and let him call me. Guess what? I'm still waiting
for that call!
Jewish Bisexual Psychology Girl? It's been three months since I heard
from her.
Although it may work for you, mystery does nothing for me.
-rainier
shortscout
"Rainier" <rainie...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1142211563....@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Who cares if no one likes you. You're not a performing monkey. Find people
who do like you, and makes friends with them
> It seems like extroverts get to fuck up as much as they want and suffer
> no repurcussions. Take my girlfriend's flamboyant gay male friend. He
> moved an hour away last December to live with his latest boy toy.
> During this month, he completely forgot about all his old friends. No
> phone calls, no visits. He ditched us all over the holidays for his new
> man.
Why should you care?
> Guess what happened on New Year's Eve? His boyfriend kicked him out of
> the house. And guess who took him right back in like the past month had
> never happened? Why his old friends of course. Despite his obvious
> disregard for their feelings, two of his abandoned friends are letting
> him live rent-free under their roof until he gets his life back
> together. Now that he has a job, him and my girlfriend are going to get
> an apartment together in April.
Your girlfriend is going to live with this guy?
This has to be made up.
>
> Second example: my girlfriend. During the fall of 2004, she filled in
> for two months while another teacher was on maternity leave. She has
> spent the last fifteen months boring us with every last excrutiating
> detail from this experience. Last night on our double date, she went
> off on a tangent about how she made her fourth graders memorize the
> Gettysburg Address. Needless to say, her digression lasted five times
> as long as Mr. Lincoln's! Everyone was noticeably bored throughout and
> finally the girl we were with changed the topic. Thank God!
Reading over the posts you made the last few months (I sometimes doubt the
veracity) you seem to pursue other women. Remember skinny girl, seeing her
while you had a girlfriend?
You are completely lacking in fidelity and are very unfaithful.
> The problem is my girlfriend constantly talks about stupid shit no one
> else cares about YET she has 106 names in her cell phone! Same thing
> with flamboyant gay man. Tons o' friends even though he treats them all
> like shit.
You also don'twrite highly of your girlfriend. Why do you stay with her. Why
do you call her your girelfriend.
This is Rikki right, the one you post pictures of and call fat?
You lack respect of others.
> Contrast that with me. Although I relapse occassionally, I can do a
> spot-on imitation of an extrovert. Not Phillip Seymour Hoffman doing
> Capote, mind you, but a close enough impersonation to get by.
> But without my girlfriend around, I'm like Sonny without Cher. No one
> wants me around. I have made numerous efforts to make friends in
> college, all of which come to naught.
Why should you care what others think of you. You are who you are. Others
should like you for what you are, not what you pretend to be.
> Two recent examples: Both of which occurred in study groups with men
> I've taken several class with together. In the first group, the guy has
> my phone number and calls me every Sunday night for help with whatever
> project we're working on. Anyways the topic of golf came up in our
> discussion. Ends up we both love the sport so I suggest we play when
> the weather warms up.
>
> Now for the second group. Different guy, this time the topic meandered
> to tennis. We both love it so I broach the idea of us playing this
> spring.
>
> Guess what the result was each time? Both simply changed the topic and
> didn't even dignify my invite with a response, let alone an excuse.
>
> Third example:
>
> I'm doing a group project with Amethyst the self-absorbed girl I like
> and a second girl. Today we meet at a book store to work on it. A
> little about Amethyst: she jokes around about her complete and utter
> lack of a social life--a fact borne out by the Saturday night e-mails
> she sends to us. I've also discovered through casual conversation she
> has no boyfriend.
And you have a girlfriend--leave her alone. Or dump your girlfriend you
speak so highly of, straighten yourself out and pursue another girlfriend.
You will do fine.
>
> Enter me. I'm fairly charming. I make her laugh. We have developed a
> rapport. The perfect cure for her social disease, correct? Wrong!
>
> The second girl left early, leaving Amethyst and I alone. I plan to ask
> her out as we leave the store. I turn for the door, assuming she will
> follow but instead she heads to the checkout to purchase a book. She
> could at least have said "Bye Rainier" or "See you Monday", but nope,
> nothing. She has never called me by name nor initated a "see you later"
> when I walk her down the stairs.
You plan to ask out a girl, while you already have a girlfriend. That really
faithful of you. Your lack of fidelity shows again.
> Today, she did ask about my life for the first time ever.
>
> Amethyst: "Are you a history major?"
> Rainier: "Yes."
> Amethyst:"Good. My nephew is in junior high and he needs some help
> writing a paper on the cold war."
Say no!
You also have no backbone. Grow one!
>
> Excellent! I get to tutor her nephew. How great is that?
>
> I feel like a figure skater with flawless technique who scores a zero
> on the artistic portion of the judging. I have no idea what in the hell
> I'm doing wrong . . . Why do loudmouth bores and self-absorbed
> narcisstists get to have all these wonderful friends but I'm left with
> the three hundred pound table scraps no one else wants?
Three hundred pound table scraps, very charming way to describe your
girlfriend.
Whether you are making this up or this is really happening there is one
thing can tell you: If you think people don't like you because you are shy
you are wrong. It is because you are a sham.
Bella Donna
asking other girls out when you have a girlfriend.
brilliant. That's seriously lame.
And PS you seriously think you are a 7?
You need to knock yourself down a few pegs, because you are average at
best.
I'm not saying that you can't do better than your current gf, but you
aren't a 7. More like a 5. I'm not saying that to be mean, but you are
not very attractive compared to other men, in fact you look like a
nerd/dork. And being a history major, well I guess that proves it. I
don't know how old you are, but you look very young. Maybe it would
help if you got contacts, I'm not sure.
But anyways, point of the post is you are way too high on yourself and
think too highly of yourself, and people probably see that. And they
probably think a LOT less of you.
LisatheSequel
> "LisatheSequel" <dontm...@goaway.com> wrote in message
> news:dv5lpp$907$1...@newsreader3.netcologne.de...
>
>>I'm sorry, I don't understand any of that. I'm not trying to be
>>deliberately stupid
>
>
> It's my fault for making several critical typos despite supposedly proof
> reading before sending it.
Hardy-har-har.
>>If I went away from someone because I felt they began to impose* on me I
>>wouldn't get anywhere. This is exactly what I've done all my life and I
>>just now begin to realize it's selfish. People have friends, real
>>friends - not just those who think they can get something for nothing -
>>because they care and try. When Rainier said Riki got on his nerves with
>>her boring stories, I identified with that because I've had it happen with
>>people around me too. In the past I'd think just as he did and find any
>>excuse to get away. I'd look at a person from the perspective of their
>>entertainment value and not as a person, and act immediately to make
>>myself comfortable at any cost.
>
>
> So you're willing to tolerate people's foibles in order to get what you
> want: "invited out to do things, invited to join the group". Nothing wrong
> with that. As I see it Rainer's complaint is that he's reaching out but
> getting nothing other than people taking advantage.
What one person considers everyday life, another considers
getting taken advantage of. Two people get on a bus, one in
front, one at the back. One seat in the middle. One of
them gets there first. The other can simply see it as not
his turn and have no hard feelings, or he can see it as
getting taken advantage of, hold it against the one who got
the seat and hold a grudge thinking life is unfair and have
a bad mood the rest of the day. That's just life. Our
attitude is determined by how we chose to view it.
Where this comes into play with others is, few people want
to spend time with or befriend someone who has a difficult
attitude. (ie-needy, moody, grumpy, shy, score-keepers,
stingy, depressed, etc.) It takes too much effort to
maintain.
I'll bet Rainer doesn't get taken advantage of any more than
anyone else does. He's just more sensitive to it.
And I shouldn't have to tell you any of this. You're smart
enough to know it on your own and besides that it's already
been said a kajillion times. It's the rules of people. And
no matter how much shybies wanna cry over it, it doesn't
look like it's changing anytime soon. So we need to learn
to play or get left out.
LisatheSequel
Off the top of my head I can speculate about two things:
1.) Not everyone sees her as you do.
2.) She's been at the friend thing longer than you have.
Number two is significant even if number one is false. I've
known people whose whole successful social lives are based
on the practice of constantly getting to know and initially
charm hordes of new people who'll replace the ones who catch
on to the fact their personalities are shit and decide not
to put up with them anymore. If everything you say there is
true, Riki might be outdoing you on numbers.
One last thing that's already been said which I will
restate: if you come across as needing *anything* people
will hesitate to give you a chance. They're already needy
themselves. We all are. So we're subconsciously attracted
to people who "have" in the hopes we'll get some too.
People who need repel.
This doesn't mean you turn offers to socialize down in the
hope you'll look like you're too in-demand, or God forbid
act conceited. Being conceited is worse than being needy.
It's a confident attitude only. Fake it till you make it.
Practice self-satisfaction. I'm Rainier, I'm worthy, I've
got what it takes. Project that.
Bernd Jendrissek
Hash: SHA1
In article <BnNRf.33035$dg.7797@clgrps13> Bella Donna
<Tysh...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>But anyways, point of the post is you are way too high on yourself and
>think too highly of yourself, and people probably see that. And they
>probably think a LOT less of you.
They'd think even less of him if he were to think lower of himself. At
least he's trying.
- --
I still tend to think there is a "spiritual" world of some sort, but I don't
think there are any people who actually understand it. The ones claiming to
do so most loudly certainly don't. - RK
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Please fetch my new key 804177F8 from hkp://wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net/
iD8DBQFEF/mXwyMv24BBd/gRAqF6AKCiSYagUOJXoSR2CM030rwaSMMYuQCeKbhh
BWimUBtsBPLWZ/zWoXP27hA=
=62fK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
ci+
> . . . only to find no one likes you?
sure... though not 100%
i think mostly because my extro-mode is too unusual...
(as to the related topic of being 'attractive'.. being too thin is no doubt a problem... anothe problem is being beyond the age
when most ppl are looking for a lovelife)
> It seems like extroverts get to fuck up as much as they want and suffer
> no repurcussions.
..
>Last night on our double date, she went
> off on a tangent about how she made her fourth graders memorize the
> Gettysburg Address.
which is short
>Needless to say, her digression lasted five times
> as long as Mr. Lincoln's! Everyone was noticeably bored throughout and
> finally the girl we were with changed the topic. Thank God!
"now we can talk about gollums with bodies stored in the deepfreeze!"
> The problem is my girlfriend constantly talks about stupid shit no one
> else cares about YET she has 106 names in her cell phone!
maybe she lets those 106 ppl talk about stupidshit (TM)[1] that no one else cares about...
>Same thing
> with flamboyant gay man. Tons o' friends even though he treats them all
> like shit.
>
> Contrast that with me. Although I relapse occassionally, I can do a
> spot-on imitation of an extrovert. Not Phillip Seymour Hoffman doing
> Capote, mind you, but a close enough impersonation to get by.
>
> But without my girlfriend around, I'm like Sonny without Cher. No one
> wants me around. I have made numerous efforts to make friends in
> college, all of which come to naught.
>
> Two recent examples: Both of which occurred in study groups with men
> I've taken several class with together. In the first group, the guy has
> my phone number and calls me every Sunday night for help with whatever
> project we're working on. Anyways the topic of golf came up in our
> discussion. Ends up we both love the sport so I suggest we play when
> the weather warms up.
>
> Now for the second group. Different guy, this time the topic meandered
> to tennis. We both love it so I broach the idea of us playing this
> spring.
>
> Guess what the result was each time? Both simply changed the topic and
> didn't even dignify my invite with a response, let alone an excuse.
i hate to suggest that you should analyse further ( :> )... but it seems they were interetsed, but then they weren't interested....
some info is missing...
> Third example:
>
> I'm doing a group project with Amethyst the self-absorbed girl I like
> and a second girl. Today we meet at a book store to work on it. A
> little about Amethyst: she jokes around about her complete and utter
> lack of a social life--a fact borne out by the Saturday night e-mails
> she sends to us. I've also discovered through casual conversation she
> has no boyfriend.
>
> Enter me. I'm fairly charming. I make her laugh. We have developed a
> rapport. The perfect cure for her social disease, correct? Wrong!
>
> The second girl left early, leaving Amethyst and I alone. I plan to ask
> her out as we leave the store. I turn for the door, assuming she will
> follow but instead she heads to the checkout to purchase a book.
aha... i think i recognize this as like my experiences...
i think you're overstaying... you need to cut out while they're "still hungry"..
the cure: i suggest that you watch more carefully for their waning interest.. waning attentiveness...
>She
> could at least have said "Bye Rainier" or "See you Monday", but nope,
> nothing. She has never called me by name nor initated a "see you later"
> when I walk her down the stairs.
>
> Today, she did ask about my life for the first time ever.
>
> Amethyst: "Are you a history major?"
> Rainier: "Yes."
> Amethyst:"Good. My nephew is in junior high and he needs some help
> writing a paper on the cold war."
>
> Excellent! I get to tutor her nephew. How great is that?
>
> I feel like a figure skater with flawless technique who scores a zero
> on the artistic portion of the judging. I have no idea what in the hell
> I'm doing wrong . . .
>Why do loudmouth bores and self-absorbed
> narcisstists get to have all these wonderful friends but I'm left with
> the three hundred pound table scraps no one else wants?
oooo... and the 300 lbers write posts *just like this one* you just wrote...
[1] if you google each incident of stupidshit (TM) ... you'll get no hits...
ci+
> Pumpkinhead wrote:
>> "Rainier" <rainie...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1142211563....@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>> . . . only to find no one likes you?
>>
>> I think that's the reason why many people create a shell in the first
>> place.
yes... and while too young to see themselves from pseudo-external vantage point..
they just go htrough a natural rection.. imo
> Which comes first? People not liking you or the defense mechanism?
>
> Perhaps the "popular" people also encountered someone
> who didn't like them too, but they were so busy having fun
> they didn't notice.
yes... (born?) insensitive ... to themselves and others..
so... despite the putsch about shy ppl being 'self-centered', i think that young norms are more selfcentered than young
futureshybies...
> - Michaela
>
>
--
uh oh
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/seanstabu/naughty/brown.gif
ci+
news:qfi91256nef6arlvt...@4ax.com:
>
> If you want her opinions of you, then you'll have to ask her:
>"Hey Amethyst, can you level with me for just a moment?
> ... be perfectly straight and forthright with me?
> What do you think of me? Do you think that I'm a likeable person?
> Do you like being around me? What do you like about me?
> What do you NOT like about me?"
ask her nephew.. while tuturing history :>
> ... then roll with it from there.
>
> If you want those kinds of questions answered by self-absorbed people,
> then you'll have to ASK them - straight up.
which might *not* result in significant stigma.... ("so clueless, you have to ask")
>>Today, she did ask about my life for the first time ever.
>>
>>Amethyst: "Are you a history major?"
>>Rainier: "Yes."
>>Amethyst:"Good. My nephew is in junior high and he needs some help
>>writing a paper on the cold war."
"the cold war between genders? or what?"
..
> For some people, this sort of thing comes naturally - they "just do
> it" and it just happens for them - as they have the natural aptitude
> - the innate talent to pull it off (lucky bastards). For guys like
> us,
> we have to struggle just for a minimal achievement - and come to terms
> with the possibility that there are some things that we are just not
> capable of achieving - that is beyond our reach.
..
> If your current personality isn't working out for you, then maybe it's
> time for you to try on another.
ci+
>
> I feel I'm entitled to have friends just like everybody else.
since you'r into writing... have you tried book clubs... almost completely women... mostly middleaged and married... but they're
possible "networking leads" for younger nieces or sisters who aren't extroverted tard-minded norms... and bookclubs are a
cheap experiment since your literary awareness would slip you in perfectly...
ci+
news:1142246349....@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
> LisatheSequel wrote:
>> Rainier wrote:
>>
>> > Amethyst: "Are you a history major?"
>> > Rainier: "Yes."
>> > Amethyst:"Good. My nephew is in junior high and he needs some help
>> > writing a paper on the cold war."
>> >
>> > Excellent! I get to tutor her nephew. How great is that?
>
> No one asks me for computer help nowadays. Back when I was in school,
> though, people used to constantly mooch computer help off me --
> classmates, friends of my parents', children of friends of my
> parents', etc. My most memorable experience was helping this
> Taiwanese girl through an entire semester in the naive belief that
> that would somehow make her like me. Naturally, it did not.
um.. yes... well.. i haven't done this many times.. so... i'd still do this kind of thing... so long as *I* lead all along... only if i'm
getting something out of it..
not just hoping for a pot of gold at the end of the tunnel... or light at the end of the oceans... or cliff at the end of the rainbow...
or whatever...
> The next time someone asks me for computer help, I'm going to suggest
> they open up a command prompt and type "format c:". That will make
> all their problems go away.
it's will make them ask *someone else* for their next advice :>
>> Seems to me you have no love or compassion in your heart for
>> anyone but yourself, and that is why you fail. You treat
>> encounters with others like business relationships, expecting to get
>> something for the time and effort you give.
>
> That's a rather Christian view of things. I see assholes who have
> great social lives all the time. There's this one asshole at work who
> is the most despicable person I've met in the past few years, and he's
> always going clubbing with friends, socializing with people, etc.
>
> Being an asshole is not an impediment to making friends or getting a
> girlfriend. Being shy, passive, having low self-esteem, and fearful
> is.
>
--
charlie brown seems to have finally learned
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/seanstabu/naughty/brown.gif
ci+
news:1142249434.1...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
> LisatheSequel wrote:
>> Antares wrote:
..
>> > That's a rather Christian view of things. I see assholes who have
>> > great social lives all the time. There's this one asshole at work
>> > who is the most despicable person I've met in the past few years,
>> > and he's always going clubbing with friends, socializing with
>> > people, etc.
>> >
>> > Being an asshole is not an impediment to making friends or getting
>> > a girlfriend. Being shy, passive, having low self-esteem, and
>> > fearful is.
>>
>>
>> Your opinion of this person's personality is subjective, and
>> since you're a self-described shy person and socially inept, wouldn't
>> it follow your opinion of what makes someone an asshole could be
>> flawed?
>
> My perception is actually usually pretty good. I have no trouble
> developing models of people's behavior that then prove to be accurate
> in predicting what they'll do or say. My incompetence is largely a
>"performing" incompetence; I have trouble getting people to be my
> friends.
same here... after years of doubt, i've decided that i really am a good observer..
and yes.. many ppl like assholes...
> I'm not worried about my subjectivity in assessing whether that guy's
> an asshole. He's clearly an asshole. He talks like an asshole, acts
> like an asshole, and is inconsiderate like an asshole.
>
>> Apparently the friends he's always going clubbing and socializing
>> with don't agree with you.
>
> That's where you're wrong. Many people do not care about the virtue
> or goodness of a person. They only care if he's fun or not. You can
> be fun to be around, and still an asshole.
>
>> My position is: people aren't idiots. If someone has
>> friends, there's a reason. Since we don't, we stand to gain a lot
>> more by observing and learning than being self-righteous.
actually... too many ppl *are* idiots.. that's why many a.s.s.ers don't fit in...
> At some point it's nice to draw conclusions, otherwise there's no
> point in observation to begin with. And if you bias your
> decision-making process to eventually lead to the conclusion that that
> person is really
>"nice" after all, then what's the point in observation to begin with?
ci+
> Alright then. If it's working for you why fix it. I
> must've been wrong.
my impression is that youre' being too (statisitcally) chariatable about the norms...
ci+
> I just think they're unrelated issues. My social competence, or lack
> thereof, has nothing to do with suspending judgement on certain people
> being assholes.
yep yep yep..
ci+
yes..
and maybe pickiness is ok....
ci+
..
>>Excellent! I get to tutor her nephew. How great is that?
>
> Uhh.. you could have refused.
or enthusiastically accept her implied offer...
"great idea! my place... each friday... 6pm.. you sans panties under a miniskirt... sure... sounds good. then the monday after...
blah blah nephew blah blah work blah blah.. deal? "
>>I feel like a figure skater with flawless technique who scores a zero
>>on the artistic portion of the judging. I have no idea what in the hell
>>I'm doing wrong . . . Why do loudmouth bores and self-absorbed
>>narcisstists get to have all these wonderful friends but I'm left with
>>the three hundred pound table scraps no one else wants?
>
> You can claim to be charming as much as you want but none of us know
> for sure. In the absence of any other witnesses, I'm inclined to
> believe your "extrovert" impression isn't as convincing as you think.
> Perhaps you come across as someone who tries way too hard?
void *
> Solitary Soul wrote:
>>
>> You mentioned the fact that she's self-absorbed - so what did you expect?
>
> Part of me feels she should be thankful I take an interest in her.
> She's mentioned several times she has no social life. She is plain and
> does nothing but bitch about work and school. IOW, she doesn't have
> much social capital so you'd think she'd be more appreciative when
> someone takes an interest in her.
Sounds to me like she's appreciative, but wants better. In that regard she's
no different than you.
void *
> void * wrote:
>> "LisatheSequel" <dontm...@goaway.com> wrote in message
>> news:dv5lpp$907$1...@newsreader3.netcologne.de...
>>
>>>I'm sorry, I don't understand any of that. I'm not trying to be
>>>deliberately stupid
>>
>> It's my fault for making several critical typos despite supposedly proof
>> reading before sending it.
>
> Hardy-har-har.
Where's the joke? There were a few typos.
shortscout
"Bella Donna" <Tysh...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:BnNRf.33035$dg.7797@clgrps13...
And being a history major, well I guess that proves it.
What's so bad about being a history major? What does it prove?
LisatheSequel
> "LisatheSequel" <dontm...@goaway.com> wrote in message
> news:dv8l4n$kqb$1...@newsreader3.netcologne.de...
>
>>void * wrote:
>>
>>>"LisatheSequel" <dontm...@goaway.com> wrote in message
>>>news:dv5lpp$907$1...@newsreader3.netcologne.de...
>>>
>>>
>>>>I'm sorry, I don't understand any of that. I'm not trying to be
>>>>deliberately stupid
>>>
>>>It's my fault for making several critical typos despite supposedly proof
>>>reading before sending it.
>>
>>Hardy-har-har.
>
>
> Where's the joke? There were a few typos.
You were serious? Damn you're humble. I like that in a
man. You get five points. :)
michaela
> michaela wrote:
>
>> I don't have the answer and I've often wondered about this myself.
>> I can only point to mystery (being mentally and physically
>> unavailable cos there's things going on in your life). By creating
>> mystery you create something from nothing. People seem to have to
>> grow in
>> our imagination before we want to invest time in them. The lonelier
>> we are the more likely we will be open to growing other people in
>> our heads and coming across as needy.
>>
>> Whereas really busy people don't have time to let people grow
>> much in their heads. I better stop now, cos I can sense my own
>> words are going to come back and bite me.
>
> People take an "out-of-sight, out-of-mind" approach with me. When I
> make myself mentally and physically unavailable they simply do not
> care. For instance, Monday I did not speak to Amethyst in class. Guess
> what? She didn't even notice.
Those people will have to actually notice you're ignoring them before
they react towards you.
> Whenever I stop taking the initiative, I fall out of other people's
> lives. Examples:
>
> Last spring, I went on several double dates with a friend from high
> school. I was always the one who called to make the dates so last
> March I decided to wait and let him call me. Guess what? I'm still
> waiting for that call!
Same response.
> Jewish Bisexual Psychology Girl? It's been three months since I heard
> from her.
>
> Although it may work for you, mystery does nothing for me.
>
> -rainier
You're being too impatient. It takes a long time for people to notice
things have changed*. Haven't you driven past a place every day for
months and then suddenly one day you notice a building has shot
up where there used to be a parking lot?
*A guy I knew treated me quite badly so I began to ignore him. It
too at least four years of seeing him once a month or so before he
made any signs of having noticed I wasn't interested in his crap.
Nowadays when he sees me, he just about jumps up and down
with excitement.
.
Yes. I said four years.
And he had to notice.
Experiment with it. You got nothing to lose.
- Michaela
Yapper
what I learned. I used to be the guy that was always eager to please.
I'd make sacrifices and go out of my way just to make sure other
people's desires were met. I was always careful not to do anything that
could be offensive or hurt other people's feelings. I was "sensitive"
and attentive. In other words, I was a nauseatingly nice guy.
But deep down I realize that that behavior wasn't genuine. I was really
an insecure asshole putting up a facade because I cared way way too
much what other people thought. Everything I did was out of
selfishness, thinking if I do all these nice things and always show
that I care about other people's feelings then they'll like me and do
the same for me. Of course, I was treated like a dishrag and I wondered
why. I always wondered why everyone seemed to care more about the
"assholes" or guys who made a little fun of them or often disregarded
their feelings when it was me who always took their side and buttered
their asses. It made me angry and resentful.
I'm not even talking about women here. NOBODY likes a "nice guy" AKA
dishrag. People will treat you how you allow yourself to be treated, in
line with the amount of value you assign to yourself. Nobody will
respect your lack of self-respect.
Like I said, I might be going off on a whole other tangent here that's
not directly related to your situation. In a nutshell: I've found that
people will treat you with more regard if you first of all respect
yourself and assign some value to your own feelings and ACT
accordingly. I think everything starts with mindset: you can't view
others as being higher than yourself and you have to have a sense of
individual identity that you bring to the table.
Lash Rambo
@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
If you come off face-to-face the way you come off in your audio recordings,
it's because you exude a semi-suppressed anxiety that rubs off on people,
making you uncomfortable to be around. You also tend to overuse self-
deprecating humor, which, after a while, can lead to people taking your
jokes seriously.
I'm guessing that your GF can make up for her "boring" stories by being
personable. People feel comfortable being around her because she's
comfortable with herself. You're not.
Lash Rambo
> A psychologist asked a group of college students to jot down
> the initials of the people they disliked. Some students could
> only think of one person; others listed up to fourteen initials.
> Those who disliked the largest number of people were themselves
> the most widely disliked. Equally true, those who liked the largest
> number of people also tend to be the most liked.
What a minute. If the task was to jot initials of those disliked, how was
it figured out who liked the most people?
michaela
or lower
than yourself and you have to have a sense of
> individual identity that you bring to the table.
Everything you said. If assers don't start learning about boundaries
they're asking for more of the same treatment they've heretofore
endured.
- Michaela
michaela
> <michaela> wrote
I'd imagine that by using the words "equally true" they are showing that
the other question was also asked. I dunno. *shrug* The point of the
story may be lost if you need questions like that answered.
Although I did (as I mentioned previously) get this passage almost
verbatim from "Living on Purpose" by Dan Millman, the first time I
read it (I keep thinking it was in Covey's HTWFAIP but I can't
seem to find it there) iirc they did mention doing having students
do both lists.
Instead of looking for holes in stories I try to concentrate on the
message of the exercise and what it may mean to me.
- Michaela
Lash Rambo
> Lash Rambo wrote:
>> <michaela> wrote
>>> A psychologist asked a group of college students to jot down
>>> the initials of the people they disliked. Some students could
>>> only think of one person; others listed up to fourteen initials.
>>> Those who disliked the largest number of people were themselves
>>> the most widely disliked. Equally true, those who liked the largest
>>> number of people also tend to be the most liked.
>>
>> What a minute. If the task was to jot initials of those disliked,
>> how was it figured out who liked the most people?
>
> I'd imagine that by using the words "equally true" they are showing that
> the other question was also asked. I dunno. *shrug* The point of the
> story may be lost if you need questions like that answered.
Getting the point was easy: the author spelled it out. The oversight,
however, leads me to believe the story was fabricated, like the one about
the sociologist who "fixed" the slow elevator with mirrors.
> Although I did (as I mentioned previously) get this passage almost
> verbatim from "Living on Purpose" by Dan Millman, the first time I
> read it (I keep thinking it was in Covey's HTWFAIP but I can't
> seem to find it there) iirc they did mention doing having students
> do both lists.
>
> Instead of looking for holes in stories I try to concentrate on the
> message of the exercise and what it may mean to me.
Thankfully, I'm not limited to doing just one thing when I read a story.
Michaela Mackenzie
So you disagree with the point the story was wanting
to make. No large deal. Different people get different
things from different sources. You pick and chew on
the ones you want to pick on. This one works for me.
- Michaela
Johnston
That you will never, ever, be employed.
Johnston
>> What's so bad about being a history major? What does it prove?
>
>
> That you will never, ever, be employed.
I stand corrected. I just looked in the job section of the newspaper and
found about 10 ads, saying things like
"Historian needed. Must know about history. Salary: $100,000".
Bella Donna
know about history"
I really wonder about the kind of people who apply for this position and
why they get paid 100 Gs.
Bella Donna
"Do you want fries with that?" - some idiot
"Only drooling morons spell it donut" - some other "whining" drooling idiot
And whatta we get folks? - too many bloody idiots in ASH :o)
Johnston
> You know, if they actually have to post this : "Historian needed. Must
> know about history"
>
> I really wonder about the kind of people who apply for this position and
> why they get paid 100 Gs.
It was a joke, of course there are no such jobs
Bella Donna
And a brush up on senseofhumor.com
lol
Bella Donna
"Do you want fries with that?" - some idiot
"Only drooling morons spell it donut" - some other "whining" drooling idiot
And whatta we get folks? - too many bloody idiots in ASH :o)
ci+
> Rainier wrote:
>> michaela wrote:
>>
...
>> People take an "out-of-sight, out-of-mind" approach with me. When I
>> make myself mentally and physically unavailable they simply do not
>> care. For instance, Monday I did not speak to Amethyst in class. Guess
>> what? She didn't even notice.
>
> Those people will have to actually notice you're ignoring them before
> they react towards you.
and then they'll think you're a 'snob' :>
>> Whenever I stop taking the initiative, I fall out of other people's
>> lives. Examples:
>>
>> Last spring, I went on several double dates with a friend from high
>> school. I was always the one who called to make the dates so last
>> March I decided to wait and let him call me. Guess what? I'm still
>> waiting for that call!
>
> Same response.
>
>> Jewish Bisexual Psychology Girl? It's been three months since I heard
>> from her.
hmmm... she might have been good... :>
>> Although it may work for you, mystery does nothing for me.
--
http://cussandotherrants.blogspot.com/
http://www.fastseduction.com/discussion/read?305535,16
http://www.fastseduction.com/cgi-bin/masfwiki.cgi?Recurring_Newbie_MASF_Topics
shortscout
"Johnston" <he...@pain.com> wrote in message
news:441f5c76$0$10674$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> > What's so bad about being a history major? What does it prove?
>
> That you will never, ever, be employed.
I'm employed--I'm history major.