Are women attracted to shy guys?
RobG8963
Are any women attracted to shy quiet types, or just "jerks". I read
somewhere that girls were beginning to look for shy quiet guys because it
presented a challenge, and they wanted to tackle it. Just wondering
because I can't honestly say I've ever seen any evidence in real life that
supports this.
Later......
Rob
Mirtika
<<Are any women attracted to shy quiet types, or just "jerks".>>
Of course SOME women are attracted to shy guys, just as some women are
attracted to jerks, just as some men are attracted to female 'jerks', just
as some men are attracted to shy females.
In my teens, I had one very shy boyfriend, which meant I had to be the
"aggressor." My husband would never have asked me out had I not been
OVERT. He was so nervous that his hands were shaking the first time he
asked for my number, and he wouldn't have gotten the nerve to ASK for that
much had I not made it very, very plain that I welcomed his attentions.
Did I see out shy guys? Not particularly. I also dated extroverts.
Was I attracted to shy guys? Yep, and extroverts, too.
I will admit there is a certain charm to the guy who looks a little
flustered, who blushes. It's endearing to me. But that's my own quirk.
I don't think you can pigeonhole people. Someone may prefer shy, but
marry assertive. Someone may prefer brunette, but marry redhead.
Attraction strikes unexpectedly. Love comes when it comes.
Mir
Love can heal when truth is found.
"...in this imperfect world, love is most perfect in its perfect
imperfection." (The Seventh Seal)
matthew
What great words of wisdom you speak.
But alas, you are married.
Sigh....
Alex Clark
In article <53rr0o$m...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, robg...@aol.com says...
>Are any women attracted to shy quiet types, or just "jerks". ...
I hope that "jerk" isn't going to turn into a code-word for "men who get
the women we aren't getting," or (even worse) "men who aren't self-
effacing." If anyone who's got what we wish we had is by definition a
"jerk" then it would be wrong even to try to get what we want, because
if we did then we'd be jerks too.
As for the rest of the question, of course women are sometimes attracted
to shy, quiet men. But it might not last any longer than the first
unsuccessful attempt to make conversation. Or they might go on being
attracted but not do anything about it because the shy men are so
difficult to flirt with that they seem to be simply uninterested.
Alex Clark
Eric Pepke
In article <53vabo$n...@news.emi.com>, ccl...@vicon.net (Alex Clark) wrote:
> I hope that "jerk" isn't going to turn into a code-word for "men who get
> the women we aren't getting," or (even worse) "men who aren't self-
> effacing." If anyone who's got what we wish we had is by definition a
> "jerk" then it would be wrong even to try to get what we want, because
> if we did then we'd be jerks too.
Well, there's something that has to be grappled with, here.
The following is, to the best of my knowledge, the truth:
Women are attracted to alpha and high-status males. One way of appearing to be an alpha male is to be a jerk. Another way is to be a performer. Another way is to be wealthy. Another way is to produce the right body language.
Of course, not all of this requires one really to be a jerk. HOWEVER, all of it requires an emotional state which, at least at first, will feel a lot like arrogance. People say "confidence," but the reason they put it that way is that it's a nice think to say, and they like saying nice things about themselves. The fact remains that, if you're uncertain about yourself and you don't have a lot of experience with this, at first it's going to feel like arrogance.
> As for the rest of the question, of course women are sometimes attracted
> to shy, quiet men. But it might not last any longer than the first
> unsuccessful attempt to make conversation. Or they might go on being
> attracted but not do anything about it because the shy men are so
> difficult to flirt with that they seem to be simply uninterested.
Yes, all this is true. In most cases, however, they're not interested in quiet men in the first place, or they're only interested in them as "friends."
Occasionaly, however, they are, and occasionally, they get through to one. At this point there are other problems, which I may talk about later.
--
Eric Pepke
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute
Florida State University
pe...@scri.fsu.edu
Gordon Rogers
>As for the rest of the question, of course women are sometimes attracted
>to shy, quiet men. But it might not last any longer than the first
>unsuccessful attempt to make conversation. Or they might go on being
>attracted but not do anything about it because the shy men are so
>difficult to flirt with that they seem to be simply uninterested.
>
Then maybe I'm totally screwed. I have as much confidence as I need,
and have no trouble at all maintaining an intelligent discussion. But
I can't talk about _nothing_, and I simply _cannot_ flirt because I
find it disgusting.
master chink aka the asian missle
i agree flirting is the most despicable violation of .......
Paul Lindemeyer
Melissa O'Brien wrote:
=
> In about six months, I=B9ll be marrying a wonderful man I met
> on this newsgroup: not because he is =B3alpha=B2 or =B3high-status,=B2
> and he=B9s anything but a jerk; but because he=B9s loving,
> gentle, funny, intelligent, romantic, communicative, and
> yes, shy -- enough to empathize with my own shyness, but
> determined enough to overcome it, as am I, that we support
> each other in our efforts. My point is, many of you have
> similar qualities, the kind of qualities that make for a
> much more successful relationship than being an "alpha" or a
> jerk does, though it may make for fewer relationships.
> And I=B9m not alone; there are many women who value such
> qualities far above being "=B3alpha."=B2
> =
> And bear in mind -- most women are attracted by, even need,
> romance; and nothing kills romance quicker than cynicism.
Thanks for saying this, Melissa. It was a real breath of fresh air. =
Now if us male cynics can only learn how not to kill romance for =
ourselves...before we even get out of the house.
-- =
Paul Lindemeyer (pau...@gannett.infi.net)
--------------------------------------------------------
CELEBRATING THE SAXOPHONE - An Illustrated History
At your local bookseller from William Morrow & Co.
James Gater
In message <96291.020...@psuvm.psu.edu>
master chink aka the asian missle <KKL...@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
> i agree flirting is the most despicable violation of .......
I don't quite follow. Flirting is a way of expressing sexual interest
in a non-serious way. It allows you to say that you fancy someone,
without commiting yourself body and soul to an irretrievable
misjudgement - most people don't like making a prat of themselves...
If they flirt back with you, then you know that they are at least
semi-interested - though of course, sometimes nothing comes of it.
That's the problem I always found with flirting; trying to work out
the rules, and play by them...
The same can be said of small talk. Life can be deadly boring if you
take it 100% seriously all of the time. Small talk is there for a
different purpose to
say, a conversation between nuclear physicists about quantum theory.
It's there purely as a means to an end - to spend time with other
people, feel something in common with them, and to relax by not
having to use your highest logic capabilities at full blast all the
time. That's not to say all talk has to mean nothing - quite the
opposite. Take sport, for example. I go down the gym regularly, and
work out. When i'm doing that, I'm stetching my body to it's limits,
and that feels good. However, I also need to sit down sometimes in
front of the telly, or listen to music and let my body rest.
If you really really LOATHE small talk, then you are basically
different. That is not wrong, no more than liking small talk is. It
just means you're going to get the most out of life if you hang with
different people, who also always like their conversation to have a
'mental' point to it.
I must admit though, I don't quite understand why you think flirting
is so disgusting. Do you think you could explain why you feel it is
such a bad thing?
I'm intrigued.
--
'Ah drat dear, I'm just grave.'
e-mail: j.g...@zetnet.co.uk
www: http://www.brunel.ac.uk/~ee95jjg
wombn
>i agree flirting is the most despicable violation of .......
I feel sorry for you and Gordon, missing out on something that can be fun
and good for the self-esteem...
Even married people like to feel like others find them attractive. Only
way to do that is to flirt a little.
It does no harm if both people take it simply as flirtation, not as a
head-game, and come away feeling like someone appreciated them a little.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wombn
"An' ye harm none, do as ye will."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**** take the "s" off the end of my email address ****
Yuri Syrov
Well, I'm a real jerk, by definition...
And, by the way, the most successful people around are jerks (e.g. Bill
Gates, majority of my friends)...
Here're the definitions (tested on practice):
1. if you're dedicated at work, stay late - you're jerk for everybody at
home and your girlfriend
2. if you aren't paying attention to a random flirt, because you're too shy
and careful in meeting people - you're jerk for the girl trying to flirt
3. if you're very sensitive and care about your friends - you're jerk,
because they will use you and stop respect you
4. if you're so busy with your own business that you have problems finding
time for next date - you're jerk
5. if you don't drink or smoke, you'll have problems in company - you're
jerk
6. if you're feeling better in 30-40+ auditorium sharing ideas and deep
thoughts - you're jerk for 20-30yo kids
7. if you're nice - you're jerk
8. if you're rich - you're jerk
9. if you're smart - you're jerk
10. if you're strong and healthy - you're jerk
... TBC ...
Just random notes, nothing serious.
*8)
Alex Clark <ccl...@vicon.net> wrote in article <53vabo$n...@news.emi.com>...
> In article <53rr0o$m...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, robg...@aol.com says...
> >Are any women attracted to shy quiet types, or just "jerks". ...
>
> I hope that "jerk" isn't going to turn into a code-word for "men who get
> the women we aren't getting," or (even worse) "men who aren't self-
> effacing." If anyone who's got what we wish we had is by definition a
> "jerk" then it would be wrong even to try to get what we want, because
> if we did then we'd be jerks too.
>
Melissa O'Brien
>Well, there's something that has to be grappled with, here.
>
>The following is, to the best of my knowledge, the truth:
>
e a performer. Another way is to be wealthy. Another way is to produce the right body language.
SOME women are attracted to men like this -- just as SOME
men care for nothing but appearance. But you do us an
injustice and yourself a disservice by assuming that this is
true of all women. Some women are too shallow to seek more
than the romance-novel image of the perfect man; some are
so insecure that they must live through someone else; some
know and expect nothing other than to be mistreated. But are
any of these the kind of woman you want? Do you really
want a woman for whom you’ll have to transform your
personality or perform for the rest of your life, or who
will probably bore you in pretty short order because she
has so little to offer, or who will leave you if you don’t
always live up to the image you’ve created?
In about six months, I’ll be marrying a wonderful man I met
on this newsgroup: not because he is “alpha” or “high-status,”
and he’s anything but a jerk; but because he’s loving,
gentle, funny, intelligent, romantic, communicative, and
yes, shy -- enough to empathize with my own shyness, but
determined enough to overcome it, as am I, that we support
each other in our efforts. My point is, many of you have
similar qualities, the kind of qualities that make for a
much more successful relationship than being an "alpha" or a
jerk does, though it may make for fewer relationships.
And I’m not alone; there are many women who value such
qualities far above being "“alpha."”
wombn
On Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:59:00 -0400, Paul Lindemeyer
<pau...@gannett.infi.net> wrote:
>Melissa O'Brien wrote:
>
>> And bear in mind -- most women are attracted by, even need,
>> romance; and nothing kills romance quicker than cynicism.
>
>Thanks for saying this, Melissa. It was a real breath of fresh air.
>
>Now if us male cynics can only learn how not to kill romance for
>ourselves...before we even get out of the house.
i'm grappling with this very subject right now.... You couldn't have said
it better.
It really brings me down to have to fight against another's cynicism.
Thank you!
wombn
On Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:12:56 GMT, wo...@pacbell.nets (wombn) wrote:
>On Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:59:00 -0400, Paul Lindemeyer
><pau...@gannett.infi.net> wrote:
>
>>Melissa O'Brien wrote:
>>
>>> And bear in mind -- most women are attracted by, even need,
>>> romance; and nothing kills romance quicker than cynicism.
>>
>>Thanks for saying this, Melissa. It was a real breath of fresh air.
>>
>>Now if us male cynics can only learn how not to kill romance for
>>ourselves...before we even get out of the house.
>
>i'm grappling with this very subject right now.... You couldn't have said
>it better.
>
>It really brings me down to have to fight against another's cynicism.
>
>Thank you!
uh oh! I think y'all triggered a rant here.....
Here's what another person's cynicism does to me:
I try to inject some optimism, point out other ways of looking at
something, wrack my brains trying to find ways around the cyncism...
But it's like tossing my energy into an enormous vacuum. It gets sucked
away, has no effect, and doesn't come back. Just drains my energy away.
And I cannot afford to give away my energy. I'm struggling just to get
through the days, just to get out of bed, just to prepare for moving to
another city and starting a new job.
Not me, nor anyone else, can heal someone else's cynicism. Only the cynic
can heal it.
I may have to stop trying to be supportive in the newsgroups for awhile.
Need to reserve my energy.
Eric Pepke
In article <546o0h$k...@herald.concentric.net>, Melissa O'Brien <RT...@concentric.net> wrote:
> SOME women are attracted to men like this -- just as SOME
> men care for nothing but appearance. But you do us an
> injustice and yourself a disservice by assuming that this is
> true of all women.
My intent was to explain the mechanism behind the observed phenomenon of women's going for jerks, not to characterize all women. Nowhere did I say "all women." In fact, in the last part of the message I acknowledged that sometimes things happen differently.
I get the feeling you're just trying to pick a fight with me.
> Some women are too shallow to seek more
> than the romance-novel image of the perfect man; some are
> so insecure that they must live through someone else; some
> know and expect nothing other than to be mistreated. But are
> any of these the kind of woman you want?
I think you're making a false dichotomy here; you're assuming that everyone in the world is either completely superficial or completely deep.
In my observation, this is not so. In my observation, what happens is that relationships start off superficial and deepen over time.
> Do you really
> want a woman for whom you’ll have to transform your
> personality or perform for the rest of your life, or who
> will probably bore you in pretty short order because she
> has so little to offer, or who will leave you if you don’t
> always live up to the image you’ve created?
I think you're making a straw man for the purposes of knocking him down and, again, I think you're using a false dichotomy to do it.
> In about six months, I’ll be marrying a wonderful man I met
> on this newsgroup: not because he is “alpha” or “high-status,”
> and he’s anything but a jerk; but because he’s loving,
> gentle, funny, intelligent, romantic, communicative, and
> yes, shy -- enough to empathize with my own shyness, but
> determined enough to overcome it, as am I, that we support
> each other in our efforts.
Well, I'm very happy for you.
Personally, I wasn't that lucky. I, too, was told about the woman that would see my deeper qualities, when I was painfully shy, and how it would be wonderful because she would see me for what I was. When she came along, it took me six months before I could even touch her hand, so shy was I. I wanted to have the monogamous lifetime relationship. What I got was something quite different. She had borderline personality disorder. If you don't know what that is, look it up in the DSM-IV. My life was a living hell for three and one-half years.
So, forgive me if I'm just a little reluctant to believe in the fairy tale happy ending. You can feel all the contempt for me that you like, but at least I don't have to go to bed not knowing if I'm going to be killed in my sleep any more.
Eric Praetzel
In article <53rr0o$m...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> robg...@aol.com (RobG8963) writes:
>Are any women attracted to shy quiet types, or just "jerks". I read
>somewhere that girls were beginning to look for shy quiet guys because it
>presented a challenge, and they wanted to tackle it. Just wondering
See what happens when you get old information!
They are only doing that for another 2 months and 2 weeks. Then the
red heads are going to ignore all men, the blonds will only wear
business suits and the brunetts are going to play look-but-no-touch.
>because I can't honestly say I've ever seen any evidence in real life that
>supports this.
Some people don't mind a challenge; they like to go after people who
don't seem to be attracted to them; consider it an obsessive habit
that is self defeating.
Many people find people who are attracted to them; much more attractive
than they'd otherwise find them. ie they spend time with people who
like to spend time with them.
As Eric pointed out; Alpha males will get attention, it is genetic and
societal. But we are not a herd and people don't always make decisions
based upon what they think other people think that they should do.
So, if you meet someone who happens to like the way you smile; she might
just want to see what is behind the shyness. Then again, you may be
so shy and invisable that nobody meets or notices you and you'll go a
few more decades without so much as a date.
Look at people as individuals.
On the other hand; sometimes it is good that we have social "norms".
ie when certainly male family members get togehter they always know
that they can talk about "sports"; except for me of course. We have
to be "normal" enough to be accepted but individual (and visable)
enough to be noticed. People may be attracted to symetrical average
faces; but that doesn't make anyone interesting or fun to be with.
Eric Praetzel, http://ece.uwaterloo.ca/~praetzel
Melissa O'Brien
pe...@scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke) wrote:
>My intent was to explain the mechanism behind the observed >phenomenon of women's going for jerks, not to characterize all >women. =
Nowhere did I say "all women." In fact, in the last >part of the message I acknowledged that sometimes things >happen differently.=
I get the feeling you're just trying to >pick a fight with me.
You know -- and I use you in the collective sense -- a while
back, a woman whom I’d never seen post here before posted a
message to the effect that she was so fed up with the
anti-women bias she saw in this newsgroup that she was
unsubscribing and signing up with alt.support.social-phobia
instead. Well, I understood her reaction, because I, and many
of the women lurkers I’ve corresponded with, see the same
bias,and therefore hesitate to post, but I didn’t agree with
her response. I feel that if you disagree with something, you
have a right to voice your opinion; and if you disagree with
something you feel may injure others, you have an obligation
to do so, rather than just walk away. So y’all are stuck with
me :-).
So, particularly when I feel the female point of view, which
is so sadly underrepresented here, is being misrepresented by a
man, I speak up, just as I would expect you to speak up if I
made a statement like “Men are attracted to big-breasted,
empty-headed blondes.” No doubt some are, but I wouldn’t
presume to speak for all or even the majority of men; to do so
would be demeaning. I’m not trying to pick a fight with you,
Eric, and I certainly don’t feel contempt for you, as you
wrote below. What I am doing is trying to convey the point of
view shared by myself and many women I know.
What I got out of your post -- and perhaps I read it wrongly?
-- was that a man should be a jerk, a performer, wealthy, or
have the right body language (i.e., an “alpha” or “high-status”
male) to attract a woman; otherwise “in most cases, they
[women] are not interested in quiet men in the first place, or
they're only interested in them as "friends," and you alluded
to other problems with the occasional exceptions you mentioned,
which doesn’t seem to leave any room for positive exceptions.
There’s no question this is true for many women; but there are
also many of us who look for far different qualities, such as
those I listed in my first post -- as I pointed out, qualities
shared by many of the men here, and that are much more
conducive to a healthy relationship than, for example, being a
jerk is. What concerns me is that some might take away the
message, as I did, that they should be the equivalent of a
silver-backed gorilla to get a woman (which doesn’t by any
means translate to having a woman). I gave my own example
simply to support what I was saying.
>> Some women are too shallow to seek more
>> than the romance-novel image of the perfect man; some are
>> so insecure that they must live through someone else; some
>> know and expect nothing other than to be mistreated. But are
>> any of these the kind of woman you want?
>I think you're making a false dichotomy here; you're assuming >that everyone in the world is either completely superficial >or comp=
letely deep.
Not at all; some are shallow, but I wouldn’t equate insecurity
or victimization with superficiality, by any means.
>Personally, I wasn't that lucky. I, too, was told about the >woman that would see my deeper qualities, when I was >painfully shy, =
and how it would be wonderful because she >would see me for what I was. When she came along, it took >me six months before I could =
even touch her hand, so shy was >I. I wanted to have the monogamous lifetime relationship. >What I got was something quite differe=
nt. She had borderline >personality disorder. If you don't know what that is, look >it up in the DSM-IV. My life was a living hel=
l for three and >one-half years. So, forgive me if I'm just a little reluctant >to believe in the fairy tale happy ending. You can =
feel all >the contempt for me that you like, but at least I don't have >to go to bed not knowing if I'm going to be killed in my sle=
ep >any more.
I certainly don’t feel contempt -- it must have been a
horrendous and harrowing experience, and you’re to be
congratulated for ending it. Not everyone gets out of such
relationships. But it goes without saying that not every woman
who looks for deeper qualities than muscles and a tan has a
mental disorder or is murderous.
I guess the message I’m trying to convey to all of you is that
there is hope if you’re not an “alpha.” Granted, the “alpha” women
may not beat down your door, and I wouldn’t recommend pursuing
a woman so shy she can never look you in the eye or has severe
emotional problems. But there are plenty of us who are in
between, who are naturally quiet and reserved ,or recovering
shys, who are looking for a friend and partner as well as a
lover -- not for a protector or master or superman. We may not
be as visible -- we tend to hang out more on the computer than
in clubs -- but we do exist, in fairly large numbers, in fact.
Mind you, that doesn’t mean that a man with emotional problems
should look for a woman equally troubled rather than dealing
with his own problems. As to whether you should pursue a
relationship with a shy or quiet woman at all, let happiness,
not other people, be your guide. If you’re happy, go with it;
ultimately, that’s all that matters. If you’re not, don’t. But
take us into account before you start beating your chests and
yodelling :-).
P.S. Eric, lately, for some reason, it’s been difficult to read
your posts, because the lines often go off the page, or
sometimes sentences run on top of each other as in your last
post -- the part about the woman you were involved with
wasn’t legible until I copied it to the posting window.
matthew
Speaking only for myself, I am glad you replied in defense of your
gender's honor rather than run away to a "safe" place. We "shys" may be
shy, but we are not weak. You are a good representative.
Thanks.
Melissa O'Brien
>Anyone with eyes can see that women prefer the Alpha male. I prefer very pretty, young, skinny women with big
>doe eyes and shiny skin and hair. But I am not able to attract a woman like that. So maybe the woman I will
>meet (have met, actually) is a little plump. She's not so young. Fine, then hopefully she can put up with
>the fact that I don't have too much hair, or that I'm not too tall. If she was an alpha female, she probably
>wouldn't be looking at me. And if I was an Alpha male, I probably would'nt be looking at her. But
>nevertheless, we have met, and we like each other.
>
>Nothing wrong with what you wrote Melissa, but you still have not refuted Erick's point. He is correct, just
>look around you. It isn't too hard to verify. That's OK though. Non-Alpha males can still meet non-alpha
>females, and we can happy. At least I am hoping this is the case. I know it worked for my folks, and I see
>it is working for you. I just choose not to ignore the obvious facts of reality in order to feel better about
>myself. I feel better about myself when I understand reality and successfully deal with it to the best of my
>abilities.
Sigh... Apparently my point didn’t sink in, so let’s look at it another way. Let’s define
an “Alpha” male, and call him Alpha A. Let’s make him like the husband of a friend of a
friend of mine, who married him specifically because he was “Alpha”. He’s a doctor, very
wealthy, quite handsome, and has an excess of confidence. Now let’s look at his wife’s
life. She hardly ever sees him, because he’s always at the hospital, and every time they
go somewhere he gets called away. He’s so busy, he barely acknowledges his children. He’s
so wealthy that there’s no incentive for her to work (in fact, he won’t let her), so she
has nothing to fill her days but shopping (the nanny takes care of the kids), and pesters
her working friends constantly to fill up her time at the expense of theirs. He’s so
handsome that women frequently hit on him; he’s had at least one affair, and his wife
lives in fear of his finding a more “alpha” woman (there’s a pre-nup, in case you’re
wondering). And he’s so confident -- in fact, arrogant -- that he saps the will of
everyone around him, including his wife’s, who’s afraid to breathe without his approval.
Now, many women look at Alpha A and swoon. They don’t think of all the negatives, they
think of the size of the diamond on their finger, and how their friends will envy them.
But I, and many women I’ve known, look at Alpha A and think, “No way in hell.”
Now lets define Alpha B. He’s very loving, intelligent, funny, introspective,
communicative, actually likes women, is romantic, and is devoted to his wife and kids.
He doesn’t have a lot of money -- he puts his wife and family before work. He may be, to
take some of the characteristics you mentioned, thinning on top or on the short side, or
not too handsome, or whatever, may even be shy :-).
Now, some women look at Alpha B and think “No way in hell. Too short, too bald, too
shy...” But I, and many women I’ve known, look at Alpha B and think, “He has the
characteristics that are really important to me, he shares my beliefs and goals; he’s
someone with whom I could be happy. The fact that he likes cuddling is much likelier to
make me happy than a full head of hair is; the fact that he listens and really talks to
me is much likelier to make me happy than an extra couple of inches of height.”
My point is, one woman’s “alpha” is another woman’s “no way in hell” (and there are all
kinds of variations in between). Now, I wouldn’t say that the women who go for Alpha B
are ignoring reality in order to feel better about themselves; on the contrary, I’d say
they have a far better idea of reality, and more respect for themselves, than the Alpha A
women.
If you are attracted to “alpha” females but can be happy with a “non-alpha” female, I’m happy
for you. Frankly, I suspect you’ll be happier than if you, a self-described “non-alpha,” had
attracted an “alpha,” because excessive admiration tends to warp people. But be careful not
to project your “alpha” criteria onto everyone else, particularly women.
Melissa O'Brien
Thanks for the kind word, Matthew. And I agree -- shys are some of the bravest people; we face
constant challenges.
Paul Lindemeyer
Darla J wrote:
... when you
> "look around" and "open your eyes", who do you see? Alpha males and Alpha females!
> And guess what? They attract each other! When you "look around", do you see a
> non-alpha male or female? No....they are not in the bars or in the most visible
> type of society. They aren't anywhere in the public eye where they must play the
> Alpha games.
(snip)
> This group should know better than anybody that ALL people aren't in the bars or
> gadding about town. Some of us are at home with our books, computers, old movies,
> good friends, etc. Perhaps we should really be looking at how to connect the
> non-alpha folks in a way that is comfortable for them?
Darla, I'm glad somebody said this.
We should definitely be looking to connect people in new ways. Somehow,
with tv, suburbs, cars and 60+ hour a week jobs, we've lost the art.
I somehow don't suspect the solution will come from the socially
skilled, who are getting theirs (so to speak), or from the truly
helpless, who have no clue how to begin. Some caring psychologist with a
soc. minor ought to write a book and get on all the talkshows.
People aren't going to like to hear that our established way of life
causes so much loneliness and forced alienation, but airing the issue
would be to the common good.
--
matthew
I have met shy women. It always turns out that they are not as shy as I
am and they can't stand my fear sometimes. On the other hand, the
"alpha" women I have gone out with tend to be very shy deep down and I
connect with them like few other guys do.
BUT -- I would rather be with a truly shy female. Many say they are and
I realize they are not shy, it's just that they were shy about
approaching me! I dunno. Guess I'm just generalizing again. Oh well.
One day, it will all make sense.
Matthew
Kooler
Thanks for your post, Melissa.
As to the subject, I'd say, women ARE attracted to shy guys (even
"alpha")...
But, personally, I do (feeling somegirl's interest):
- not pay any attention, willingly or unwillingly, but it cleans everything
out;
- become a friend... and, BTW, the friendship is really hard to turn into
something deeper;
- having minimal experience in social life, spoil something causing
catastrophic breakup...
And this happens when she makes first steps.
I've never ever tried to contact somebody at first...
And I'm not alone here...
*8)
------
Melissa O'Brien <RT...@concentric.net> wrote
[skipped]
I guess the message I’m trying to convey to all of you is that
there is hope if you’re not an “alpha.” Granted, the “alpha” women
may not beat down your door, and I wouldn’t recommend pursuing
a woman so shy she can never look you in the eye or has severe
emotional problems. But there are plenty of us who are in
between, who are naturally quiet and reserved ,or recovering
shys, who are looking for a friend and partner as well as a
lover -- not for a protector or master or superman. We may not
be as visible -- we tend to hang out more on the computer than
in clubs -- but we do exist, in fairly large numbers, in fact.
Mind you, that doesn’t mean that a man with emotional problems
should look for a woman equally troubled rather than dealing
with his own problems. As to whether you should pursue a
relationship with a shy or quiet woman at all, let happiness,
not other people, be your guide. If you’re happy, go with it;
ultimately, that’s all that matters. If you’re not, don’t. But
take us into account before you start beating your chests and
yodelling :-).
----------
Darla J
Melissa O'Brien <RT...@concentric.net> wrote:
>Sigh... Apparently my point didn’t sink in, so let’s look at it another way.
I am sorry that I missed the original posting, but the gist of the thread is all too
clear. I have tried to make the same point as you, Melissa, several times on this
newsgroup, but it is not popular. There seems to me to be a few fellas (and I very
gratefully acknowledge that this is not the opinion of ALL guys) who love to believe
that women are jerks because women prefer to date jerks. Due to the high degree of
intellect in this newsgroup, there is acknowledgement that ALL women are not this
way, but certainly MOST are, therefore the 80/20 rule applies and ALL women get
tarred with the brush anyways. In my attempts to avoid responding to a
generalization with another generalization, I have stated *facts* in my responses.
Such as my personal experiences and those of my friends. These postings were not
too popular (or were too boring) for the respondees to reply.
The case against women seems to carry a lot of "Look around you" type of statements,
not to mention the infamous "anyone with eyes can see" comment. Herein lies the
answer (similarly stated in response to a different posting by a *guy*)... when you
"look around" and "open your eyes", who do you see? Alpha males and Alpha females!
And guess what? They attract each other! When you "look around", do you see a
non-alpha male or female? No....they are not in the bars or in the most visible
type of society. They aren't anywhere in the public eye where they must play the
Alpha games. Therefore, when you look around, yes, you see females (alpha)
attracted to Alpha males. That's all you are ever going to see because that's the
only type of attractions/relationships that are on display.
This group should know better than anybody that ALL people aren't in the bars or
gadding about town. Some of us are at home with our books, computers, old movies,
good friends, etc. Perhaps we should really be looking at how to connect the
non-alpha folks in a way that is comfortable for them? I always thought that this
newsgroup was a good place to start, but the bitterness of the "all women prefer
jerks" theme seems to prevail. I guess victims will be victims.
Thanks for trying to defend the quality of our gender, Melissa. My congratulations
on your successful relationship with a shy guy (does he have a brother? ;) )
arcana
> > In about six months, I=92ll be marrying a wonderful man I met=20
> > on this newsgroup: not because he is =93alpha=94 or =93high-status,=94=
=20
> > and he=92s anything but a jerk; but because he=92s loving,=20
> > gentle, funny, intelligent, romantic, communicative, and=20
> > yes, shy -- enough to empathize with my own shyness, but=20
> > determined enough to overcome it, as am I, that we support=20
> > each other in our efforts.
So, how did the two of you ever get over your initial shyness and worked
up the nerve to talk to each other?
wrd...@ix.netcom.com
Eric Pepke wrote:
.
>
> The following is, to the best of my knowledge, the truth:
>
> Women are attracted to alpha and high-status males.
Not always. Many of us have had "gorgeous" guys who are jerks, and
don't want another one. Many of us want someone like ourselves, a bit
shy, not a macho man type, etc.
> Yes, all this is true. In most cases, however, they're not interested in quiet men in the first place, or they're only interested in them as "friends."
Maybe this has been your experience. I like quiet men, but it is very
difficult to get them to ask you out, because they are shy. Usually, I
have to suggest coffee or a movie first.
And as for lasting, my present relationship has lasted 4 years....
Yes, the busty, 20-something, cheerleader types will go for the gorgeous
high status men. So look for shy, quiet women at bookstore readings,
classes on New Ages stuff, seminars, the Library, etc.
NB
Mirtika Schultz
Melissa O'Brien wrote: <<Now lets define Alpha B. He’s very loving,
intelligent, funny, introspective,
communicative, actually likes women, is romantic, and is devoted to his
wife and kids.
He doesn’t have a lot of money -- he puts his wife and family before
work. He may be, to
take some of the characteristics you mentioned, thinning on top or on
the short side, or
not too handsome, or whatever, may even be shy :-).
Now, some women look at Alpha B and think “No way in hell. Too short,
too bald, too
shy...” But I, and many women I’ve known, look at Alpha B and think, “He
has the
characteristics that are really important to me, he shares my beliefs
and goals; he’s
someone with whom I could be happy. The fact that he likes cuddling is
much likelier to
make me happy than a full head of hair is; the fact that he listens and
really talks to
me is much likelier to make me happy than an extra couple of inches of
height.”>>
You're singing my song, Melissa! I agree with every cell in my body.
The SMART women look for what makes a good all around mate, not what
makes for a good trophy husband. And the smart men do the same. : >
My husband could go bald, impotent and wear dentures and I'd still want
him, because at his essence he is the GOOD GUY that makes me feel warm
and loved. I don't have the big diamond, the vacation lodge, the Lexus,
the Armani suit, etc. But I have a man who puts me first and rubs my
feet when they hurt and doesn't get drunk or screw around.
See, I'm a smart girl, too. ; >
Mir
Mirtika Schultz
grogers wrote: << But
find it disgusting.>>
and master chink wrote: <<i agree flirting is the most despicable
violation of .......>>
What exactly do you guys consider "flirting" that you find it so
disgusting?
What I call flirting--a certain smile, an eager look in the eye, breezy
compliments, lighthearted attention, slight and playful touches on the
arm and lower thigh--why are these disgusting?
I agree with wombn. These are just ways to say "I like you" without
saying it verbally, hence less vulnerabley. The person being flirted
with can return the flirtation or hold back without offending. When
someone flirted with me, it made me fell attractive.
Mir
Melissa O'Brien
>This group should know better than anybody that ALL people aren't in the bars or
>gadding about town. Some of us are at home with our books, computers, old movies,
>good friends, etc. Perhaps we should really be looking at how to connect the
>non-alpha folks in a way that is comfortable for them?
This is a good point, and I see a few posters have taken up the challenge
already. There was a thread a while back about things to do, but what is
it we really do, and where do we really hang out? My $0.02 worth:
The library
Bookstores -- I don’t know about other cities, but Houston has a number of
the huge Barnes & Noble and Bookstop stores that have little cafes and
tables, armchairs, etc. Lots of bookworm types hang out there. A lot of
bookstores also sponsor book discussion groups; in one group here in
Houston, 4 couples met there and got married.
The movies -- on a weeknight or weekend matinees
Evening classes
Museums and galleries
Seminars and lectures; keep an eye on your local paper’s events section
The occasional singles party
Walking in the park
Dance classes
One caution, though: some women are at these places to actually read,
learn, walk, etc., not to meet men. If you’re interested in one of them,
by all means, smile and say hello, and if she seems receptive -- smiles,
responds, has an open disposition, etc., or even if she just seems nervous
-- go for it. But if she glowers, answers in curt monosyllables, and
refuses to look at you, back off. A lot of men seem to be under the
impression that if they’re just persistent enough, she’ll come around; but
if she’s really unreceptive, it’s much more likely to really piss her off.
Like most women, I’ve snuck out of my share of back doors to avoid
relentless romeos.
> My congratulations
>on your successful relationship with a shy guy (does he have a brother? ;) )
Thanks for the congrats. Sorry, no brothers :-).
Melissa O'Brien
>You're singing my song, Melissa! I agree with every cell in my body.
>The SMART women look for what makes a good all around mate, not what
>makes for a good trophy husband. And the smart men do the same. : >
>
>My husband could go bald, impotent and wear dentures and I'd still want
>him, because at his essence he is the GOOD GUY that makes me feel warm
>and loved. I don't have the big diamond, the vacation lodge, the Lexus,
>the Armani suit, etc. But I have a man who puts me first and rubs my
>feet when they hurt and doesn't get drunk or screw around.
>
>See, I'm a smart girl, too. ; >
>
>Mir
Hey, smart women of the Net, unite! :-)
Alex Clark
In article <54cms8$m...@brain.npiec.on.ca>, cko...@freenet.npiec.on.ca
says...
>In <5448qb$8ic...@bbs99.erie.net>, Gordon Rogers wrote:
>: ... and I simply _cannot_ flirt because I
>: find it disgusting.
>
>Explain please, what you mean by disgusting. How is smiling and paying a
>person a genuine compliment a repulsive act?
Let me make a guess. It's disgusting when *someone* *else* flirts with
someone you're attracted to, and the object (if I may use that word
loosely) of your interest returns the favor, and ignores you because
you're not showing enough interest. To those who think flirting is
disgusting because you're disgusted when you see other people doing it:
just remember that it's only other people's flirting that's disgusting.
And it's only disgusting because you're jealous.
Alex Clark
Alex Clark
In article <326AEE...@gannett.infi.net>, pau...@gannett.infi.net
says...
>I somehow don't suspect the solution will come from the socially
>skilled, who are getting theirs (so to speak), or from the truly
>helpless, who have no clue how to begin. Some caring psychologist with
>a soc. minor ought to write a book and get on all the talkshows.
And be ignored on the assumption that "he/she isn't shy, and only
someone who has always been very shy can know anything about it." People
who have been living with serious problems for a long time find it hard
to imagine that there's been a solution within their reach all along.
For the short term, it's easier to go on putting up with the problem
than it is to change one's expectations.
Alex Clark
arcana
> BUT -- I would rather be with a truly shy female. Many say they are and
> I realize they are not shy, it's just that they were shy about
In your opinion, what is a truly shy female?
matthew
wrdtech saith:
> Yes, the busty, 20-something, cheerleader types will go for the gorgeous
> high status men. So look for shy, quiet women at bookstore readings,
> classes on New Ages stuff, seminars, the Library, etc.
>
> NB
Excuse me folks, I've got a bookstore to go to....
Eric Pepke
In article <54bcuq$d...@herald.concentric.net>, Melissa O'Brien <RT...@concentric.net> wrote:
> So y’all are stuck with
> me :-).
No problem, just as long as you understand that you're stuck with me, too.
It's interesting that you react this way, though, because my statement was certainly more charitable to women than the most common "women only want jerks" statement.
> What I got out of your post -- and perhaps I read it wrongly?
> -- was that a man should be a jerk, a performer, wealthy, or
> have the right body language (i.e., an “alpha” or “high-status”
> male) to attract a woman; otherwise “in most cases, they
> [women] are not interested in quiet men in the first place, or
> they're only interested in them as "friends," and you alluded
> to other problems with the occasional exceptions you mentioned,
> which doesn’t seem to leave any room for positive exceptions.
I think that the first misreading problem is your use of the word "should." I talk about "is." My view is the view of an anthropologist. I describe what I observe without passing moral judgement. I know from experience, for example, that when I behave like an alpha male I get far more attention from women than when I don't. So, I report this experience.
I very seldom tell people what they "should" do, except in rare cases where they ask me specifically for advice. This is because "should" is based on a lot of different factors, many of which are personal. In particular, there are issues of ethics and morality. I don't feel qualified to tell people what their ethics or morality "should" be. I do believe, though, that one should have as much information at one's disposal before making a "should" choice. Ultimately, though, it is up to each individual to make his and/or her choice.
I don't have any problem with your presenting yourself as an exception. What I do have a problem with is your misrepresenting what I am saying. If this misrepresentation is the result of a misunderstanding, then we can possibly correct it.
> There’s no question this is true for many women; but there are
> also many of us who look for far different qualities, such as
> those I listed in my first post -- as I pointed out, qualities
> shared by many of the men here, and that are much more
> conducive to a healthy relationship than, for example, being a
> jerk is.
Well, I continue to see a false dichotomy here. I'm speaking about "attraction." You're speaking about a "healthy relationship." The dynamics of attraction aren't the same as the dynamics of a healthy relationship. This seems to me so obvious that I feel a bit self-conscious saying it. If they were the same, then there would be NO divorce, NO spouse abuse, NO adultery, etc. etc.
> What concerns me is that some might take away the
> message, as I did, that they should be the equivalent of a
> silver-backed gorilla to get a woman (which doesn’t by any
> means translate to having a woman). I gave my own example
> simply to support what I was saying.
Personally, I think that the human version of "alpha male" is much more flexible than the gorilla equivalent. Furthermore, while the qualities of being an alpha male aren't the same as the qualities needed to maintain a relationship, neither are they necessarily at odds with each other.
For example, teachers are alphas. Teachers are more obviously alphas than just about anybody else, with the possible exception of music and film stars. Would you say that being a teacher necessarily makes one incapable of maintaining a relationship? Should we men feel bad or ashamed if we feel good teaching?
> >> Some women are too shallow to seek more
> >> than the romance-novel image of the perfect man; some are
> >> so insecure that they must live through someone else; some
> >> know and expect nothing other than to be mistreated. But are
> >> any of these the kind of woman you want?
>
> >I think you're making a false dichotomy here; you're assuming >that everyone in the world is either completely superficial >or comp=
> letely deep.
>
> Not at all; some are shallow, but I wouldn’t equate insecurity
> or victimization with superficiality, by any means.
I got the false dichotomy idea from the fact that you were talking about long-term relationship strategies as being the same as attraction strategies. For example, your comment:
> Do you really
> want a woman for whom you’ll have to transform your
> personality or perform for the rest of your life, or who
> will probably bore you in pretty short order because she
> has so little to offer, or who will leave you if you don’t
> always live up to the image you’ve created?
Where does this "rest of your life" stuff comes from? The attraction phase is very short-lived, perhaps as short as twenty minutes. Twenty minutes is not usually the rest of one's life, and if it is, what's the point of worrying about the long-term?
Also the "so little to offer." What makes you think that all women who are attracted to alpha males have little to offer? It seems to me that you should look for the answer to this question before you call me misogynistic.
> I certainly don’t feel contempt -- it must have been a
> horrendous and harrowing experience, and you’re to be
> congratulated for ending it. Not everyone gets out of such
> relationships.
Unfortunately, I can't take credit for ending the relationship. What I did was end the game. She, of course, responded by finding another player, and that's what ended the relationship.
> But it goes without saying that not every woman
> who looks for deeper qualities than muscles and a tan has a
> mental disorder or is murderous.
The point is that when you
a) Are the pursued rather than the pursuer,
b) Don't have a lot of experience with the opposite sex, and
c) Remain frustrated for a long period of time,
then you have a lot less quality control over your relationships. You're limited to the choice of individuals who pursue you, you are unable to detect the warning signs of pathology, and you are likely to project perfection on a relationship that doesn't merit it.
Nowadays, I can spot a borderline or sociopath pretty easily, within a few minutes. I have relatively little to fear from them.
HOWEVER, I got this way not by waiting around and hoping for the best, but by going out myself and investigating how people interacted socially, and this has involved having relationships with more than one woman. Yes, not all women are abusive, just as not all men are abusive, but the ones who are DON'T come with tattoos on their foreheads to warn you.
That's my reaction to your message of hope. Yes, you might get lucky, but also, you might get very unlucky. It's a crap shoot. So, what do you do? Do you tell yourself there's hope and wait, or do you go out and learn?
Again, I don't want to tell anybody what to do. I, personally, have chosen to learn, to understand the dynamics, if for no other reason than to protect myself and forestall disaster. I'm just not satisfied with the "wait for it to happen" school of thought, for this reason.
Maybe I would feel differently if I hadn't had that experience, but the fact is that I did, and I want to tell people that there is danger out there, so that if they choose, they can learn how to protect themselves. For me, hoping for a good relationship is a bit like having sex without birth control, hoping that you won't get pregnant. Yeah, most of the time the worst doesn't happen, but is it really a good strategy?
> P.S. Eric, lately, for some reason, it’s been difficult to read
> your posts, because the lines often go off the page,
Oops! Sorry. I had unchecked the "wrap message" option temporarily. It's back now; I hope it applies to this message.
Jon Aguire
Darla J <Dar...@mindlink.bc.ca> wrote:
>I am sorry that I missed the original posting, but the gist of the thread is all too
>clear. I have tried to make the same point as you, Melissa, several times on this
>newsgroup, but it is not popular. There seems to me to be a few fellas (and I very
>gratefully acknowledge that this is not the opinion of ALL guys) who love to believe
>that women are jerks because women prefer to date jerks.
I don't really think any of the guys are calling the women who like
jerks, jerks. If they are, it's petty. Because I can understand a
woman's attraction to an Alpha. (And BTW, not all Alphas have to be
jerks) Some of the Alpha guys I most envy have a fantastic balance of
confidence, social outgoingness (is that a word) and an actual
compassion for other's feelings. I WISH I could call them all jerks.
It would make them easier to "compete" with, because I do think MOST
women see through a confident facade hiding a shallow, obnoxious soul.
But if I were a woman, I'd probably want one of those "nice Alphas"
for myself. And I think guys understand this. If I ever see a woman I
like attracted to an Alpha, I very well may be angry and frustrated,
but certainly not at her. I am angry at myself. (With a good dose of
self-pity thrown in for good measure :p )
>The case against women seems to carry a lot of "Look around you" type of statements,
>not to mention the infamous "anyone with eyes can see" comment. Herein lies the
>answer (similarly stated in response to a different posting by a *guy*)... when you
>"look around" and "open your eyes", who do you see? Alpha males and Alpha females!
> And guess what? They attract each other! When you "look around", do you see a
>non-alpha male or female? No....they are not in the bars or in the most visible
>type of society. They aren't anywhere in the public eye where they must play the
>Alpha games. Therefore, when you look around, yes, you see females (alpha)
>attracted to Alpha males. That's all you are ever going to see because that's the
>only type of attractions/relationships that are on display.
Actually, what makes me most believe that women are attracted to
Alphas is the fact that I see it in everyday life. Not clubs and bars,
not parties, it is simply more obvious there. What convinces me is the
fact that I see it in everyday life. In work, and with friends, both
past and present. I have seen a wide mixture of women, both quiet ones
and talkers, both being attracted to the Alpha guy. Again, this isn't
a knock. Just what I've seen, and obviously there are going to be
exceptions. I just want to be one of those exceptions :)
Jon
The Social Alien
Jon Aguire
ccl...@vicon.net (Alex Clark) wrote:
>In article <54cms8$m...@brain.npiec.on.ca>, cko...@freenet.npiec.on.ca
>says...
>>In <5448qb$8ic...@bbs99.erie.net>, Gordon Rogers wrote:
>>: ... and I simply _cannot_ flirt because I
>>: find it disgusting.
Disgusting? Sounds like you are a little too uptight. Flirting is a
great way for two people to show interest in each other, whether it is
simple affection or a more sexual interest.
>Let me make a guess. It's disgusting when *someone* *else* flirts with
>someone you're attracted to, and the object (if I may use that word
>loosely) of your interest returns the favor, and ignores you because
>you're not showing enough interest. To those who think flirting is
>disgusting because you're disgusted when you see other people doing it:
>just remember that it's only other people's flirting that's disgusting.
>And it's only disgusting because you're jealous.
Well, I wouldn't say disgusting here, just frustrating!! There are SO
many guys better at the flirting thing than me, I really should study
the handbook again! :) Not only do I lack the skills, but I lack
that crucial element, confidence. (Damn right I'm jealous!! :p )
Jon
The Social Alien
Darla J
>>gadding about town. Some of us are at home with our books, computers, old movies,
>>good friends, etc. Perhaps we should really be looking at how to connect the
>>non-alpha folks in a way that is comfortable for them?
>
>This is a good point, and I see a few posters have taken up the challenge
>already. There was a thread a while back about things to do, but what is
>it we really do, and where do we really hang out? My $0.02 worth:
>
>The library
>Bookstores -- I don’t know about other cities, but Houston has a number of
>the huge Barnes & Noble and Bookstop stores that have little cafes and
>tables, armchairs, etc. Lots of bookworm types hang out there. A lot of
>bookstores also sponsor book discussion groups; in one group here in
>Houston, 4 couples met there and got married.
>The movies -- on a weeknight or weekend matinees
>Evening classes
>Museums and galleries
>Seminars and lectures; keep an eye on your local paper’s events section
>The occasional singles party
>Walking in the park
>Dance classes
>
This is so true. With the exception of the singles party, these are all places that
I feel comfortable going to.
>One caution, though: some women are at these places to actually read,
>learn, walk, etc., not to meet men. If you’re interested in one of them,
>by all means, smile and say hello, and if she seems receptive -- smiles,
>responds, has an open disposition, etc., or even if she just seems nervous
>-- go for it. But if she glowers, answers in curt monosyllables, and
>refuses to look at you, back off. A lot of men seem to be under the
>impression that if they’re just persistent enough, she’ll come around; but
>if she’s really unreceptive, it’s much more likely to really piss her off.
>Like most women, I’ve snuck out of my share of back doors to avoid
>relentless romeos.
>
>
Even truer! This is exactly how I would react when feeling receptive (or not, as
the case may be). So that's us taken care of... where are the guys?
joe holland
the guys are at home reading the news group, trying to find out where
the girls are. Thanks for the tips we needed it.
joe
wrd...@ix.netcom.com
I can't speak for those guys, but, some kind of flirting is kinda
disgusting:
You know the type of guy, they used to be called "wolves." They single
you out, turn on the charm, try to touch you, put their arm around you,
etc. Then 5 min. later, they are trying the same stuff on someone else.
Or guys who already have a girlfriend or a wife, and are just killing
time with you.
The sleezy kind of flirting is the kind I don't like.
I do like compliments, and some light teasing. I do it myself!
:-)
NB
Mirtika Schultz wrote:
>
> What exactly do you guys consider "flirting" that you find it so
> disgusting?
>
> What I call flirting--a certain smile, an eager look in the eye, breezy
> compliments, lighthearted attention, slight and playful touches on the
> arm and lower thigh--why are these disgusting?
> Mir
wrd...@ix.netcom.com
I don't know why you guys whine so much about the Alpha male thing.
After all, you can make a lot of money, get a great car, and women will
fall all over you, because "poof," you ARE an Alpha male. You can be
fat, short, bald, whatever, but you get money and power, and you've got
women falling over you. (Or so goes this theory...)
But this doesn't work for a female (look at all the executive women, and
professional women who have money but can't find a mate). We have to
have plastic surgery (from breast enlargement to liposuction), dye our
hair blonde, wear spike heels (if we are short) whatever, in order to
become an Alpha female. And take a cut in pay, because if we don't, the
men feel inferior.
Not fair, is it?
NB
wombn
On Wed, 23 Oct 1996 13:51:10 +0000, wrd...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>I don't know why you guys whine so much about the Alpha male thing.
>After all, you can make a lot of money, get a great car, and women will
>fall all over you, because "poof," you ARE an Alpha male. You can be
>fat, short, bald, whatever, but you get money and power, and you've got
>women falling over you. (Or so goes this theory...)
I think you're overgeneralizing on this one....
>But this doesn't work for a female (look at all the executive women, and
>professional women who have money but can't find a mate). We have to
>have plastic surgery (from breast enlargement to liposuction), dye our
>hair blonde, wear spike heels (if we are short) whatever, in order to
>become an Alpha female. And take a cut in pay, because if we don't, the
>men feel inferior.
well, I"m biased in your favor on this one.... being an annoyed female who
has struggled with these very issues....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wombn
"An' ye harm none, do as ye will."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**** take the "s" off the end of my email address ****
Eric Pepke
> ccl...@vicon.net (Alex Clark) wrote:
>
> >In article <54cms8$m...@brain.npiec.on.ca>, cko...@freenet.npiec.on.ca
> >says...
> >>In <5448qb$8ic...@bbs99.erie.net>, Gordon Rogers wrote:
> >>: ... and I simply _cannot_ flirt because I
> >>: find it disgusting.
>
> Disgusting? Sounds like you are a little too uptight. Flirting is a
> great way for two people to show interest in each other, whether it is
> simple affection or a more sexual interest.
Hey, let's go a little easy on the guy.
I think I might understand where he's coming from. There's a social more,
especially in certain circles, that every communication should be
meaningful, direct, and openly honest.
Flirting isn't any of these things. It's usually superficial. The overt
message is usually unimportant and is merely a carrier for a hidden
message. It often involved feints, innuendo, and hyperbole.
I understand how this could bug some people. Personally, it took me a
little while before I got into flirting.
Paul Lindemeyer
Hell yes!!!
There's still this. We're hip deep in personal testimonial books a la "I
beat addiction," "I overcame depression," "I licked chapped lips," etc.
Why not a book called "I beat shyness?"
That is, if it's ever been *done* ;-) ...
James Gater
In message <326E20...@ix.netcom.com>
wrd...@ix.netcom.com writes:
> I can't speak for those guys, but, some kind of flirting is kinda
> disgusting:
> You know the type of guy, they used to be called "wolves." They single
> you out, turn on the charm, try to touch you, put their arm around you,
> etc. Then 5 min. later, they are trying the same stuff on someone else.
> Or guys who already have a girlfriend or a wife, and are just killing
> time with you.
> The sleezy kind of flirting is the kind I don't like.
> I do like compliments, and some light teasing. I do it myself!
> :-)
> NB
Rightho. Personally I don't call that flirting - that's sharking in my book.
Flirting is light hearted, a way of showing attraction without it
(yet) meaning anything; not a blatant attempt to get into your panties...
And I agree, I *personally* don't like sharks. But then again, a
couple of my friends have dorsal fins, and they seem to get their
paws on an awful lot of women... Sigh. Maybe there's something to it after all.
--
'Retard daughters via jam' (Find some anagrams of YOUR name:
http://www.genius2000.com/anagram.html)
e-mail: j.g...@zetnet.co.uk
WWW: http://www.brunel.ac.uk/~ee95jjg
Darla J
smu...@juno.com (Jon Aguire) wrote:
>Some of the Alpha guys I most envy have a fantastic balance of
>confidence, social outgoingness (is that a word) and an actual
>compassion for other's feelings. I WISH I could call them all jerks.
>It would make them easier to "compete" with, because I do think MOST
>women see through a confident facade hiding a shallow, obnoxious soul.
>But if I were a woman, I'd probably want one of those "nice Alphas"
>for myself. And I think guys understand this. If I ever see a woman I
>like attracted to an Alpha, I very well may be angry and frustrated,
>but certainly not at her. I am angry at myself. (With a good dose of
>self-pity thrown in for good measure :p )
>
I guess that's the catch, eh? We are attracted to the few people who have "got it
all together" (I've stopped using the word Alpha, since the meaning is not clear,
nor obvious to me since I have not seen any of the studies that define it). So are
we SOL because there are so few men or women who have it all? Is it just an
illusion? Is it REALLY what people want? Or is it too intimidating if you really
have a chance to go out with someone "perfect"?
>I have seen a wide mixture of women, both quiet ones
>and talkers, both being attracted to the Alpha guy. Again, this isn't
>a knock. Just what I've seen, and obviously there are going to be
>exceptions. I just want to be one of those exceptions :)
>
Mmmmm. I must be backwards. I'm quoting another person on this newsgroup here, but
I sometimes interpret higher degrees of confidence as arrogance, and that turns my
stomach (not that insecurity is appealing). Conversely, I sometimes interpret
"quietness" as a strong belief in self (confidence tempered with humility) that is
infinitely appealing. I guess it all depends on the persons body language (which I
absorb unconsciously). I think the "quiet types" have a strong (but quiet)
following of their own. And if quiet-types attract quiet-types, how could you tell?
You could already be an exception and you don't know it! :)
Mirtika
Darla wrote: <<Conversely, I sometimes interpret
that is
infinitely appealing. I guess it all depends on the persons body language
(which I
absorb unconsciously). I think the "quiet types" have a strong (but
quiet)
following of their own.>>
I have always preferred quiet types.....so I have to agree that they have
a "following." And I think women are better at reading these unconscious
signals (Not being sexist, just going by what I've seen and what I've read
on these boards--they guys saying, "What signals?" and the women going,
"Oh, yeah, sure, I know what you mean.")
Doesn't that mean that the quiet gals who like quiet men are at a
disadvantage, since said quiet men are oblivious to those come-and-get-me
signals? Of course, this assumes that quiet/shy gals are effectively
sending the signals........I'm not sure they are.
<<And if quiet-types attract quiet-types, how could you tell? You could
already be an exception and you don't know it! :)>>
And therein is the dilemma.
Mir--fast becoming a Darla Fan : >
Love can heal when truth is found.
"...in this imperfect world, love is most perfect in its perfect
imperfection." (The Seventh Seal)
Rick S
In article <199610240...@zetnet.co.uk>, James Gater
<j.g...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <326E20...@ix.netcom.com>
> wrd...@ix.netcom.com writes:
>
> > I can't speak for those guys, but, some kind of flirting is kinda
> > disgusting:
> > You know the type of guy, they used to be called "wolves." They single
> > you out, turn on the charm, try to touch you, put their arm around you,
> > etc. Then 5 min. later, they are trying the same stuff on someone else.
> > Or guys who already have a girlfriend or a wife, and are just killing
> > time with you.
> > The sleezy kind of flirting is the kind I don't like.
> Rightho. Personally I don't call that flirting - that's sharking in my book.
> Flirting is light hearted, a way of showing attraction without it
> (yet) meaning anything; not a blatant attempt to get into your panties...
>
> And I agree, I *personally* don't like sharks. But then again, a
> couple of my friends have dorsal fins, and they seem to get their
> paws on an awful lot of women... Sigh. Maybe there's something to it
after all.
You know, I find your terminology quite intriguing. Sure, sharks may take
advantage of a lot of other fish and gain some stature as a result of their
behavior, but I doubt they make friends with many of them either.
Rather than being envious of those with dorsal fins, you should take pity
on them and feel good about yourself knowing that when you find the right
person, your relationship will be founded on love and respect rather than
impudence and power.
-- Rick
ri...@gate.net
matthew
Mirtka Wrote:
>
> Mir--fast becoming a Darla Fan : >
You and me, both, sister!
Amen! Alleluhia! PRAISE the Darla!
Darla J
Scott <red...@flash.net> wrote:
>Darla J wrote:
>> I am sorry that I missed the original posting, but the gist of the thread is all too
>> clear.
>Your totally missing the point. To say the women prefer Alpha males is not saying that all women prefer
>jerks. That's your assumption.
As I stated, I did not see (physically, not figuratively) your point. I was not
challenging your point. I did not see the original posting. I was responding to the
gist of Melissa's message, based on my own experience with this newsgroup, where I
have responded to postings titled "Why do Women like Jerks?" and "Nice Guys vs.
Jerks", etcetera. I could not join your debate on the definition of Alpha because I
missed it. I was just picking up on the general tone, which I am sensitive to,
because of the previous postings I mentioned. I apologize if I have offended you by
using the word incorrectly.
>Now, if you read what Melissa wrote, she still did not refute my point. She never criticized Alpha qualities.
From what I read, I assumed that by alpha qualities you were talking about the
showy, beat-on-your-chest gorilla-types (I caught reference to a gorilla in there
somewhere). We have all seen enough jocks & used-car-salesmen types to know these
guys exist. Again, my apologies for not knowing what alpha qualities are.
>If you read my post that Melissa was responding to, I said the exact same thing. In fact, you seem to be
>agreeing with me. 'when you "look around" and "open your eyes", who do you see? Alpha males and Alpha
>females!' And non-Alpha's meet non-Alphas. My point exactly.
Cool.
>> but the bitterness of the "all women prefer
>> jerks" theme seems to prevail. I guess victims will be victims.
>
>Personally, I have NEVER made this claim. You guys are totally reading into this. You are equating "jerk"
>with "alpha"; that's your assumption, not mine.
Yup.
>Personally, I don't think all women prefer jerks.
So glad to hear it.
>Just like it is a biological that men are attracted to young women with shiny skin
What the heck is shiny skin? Women have spent years going to the washrooms to
"powder our noses" so we're NOT shiny.
>Why is a guy who is good-looking and confident a jerk? I've had friends like this, and those guys weren't
>jerks at all.
Ahhh.... so Alpha is an appearance-based thing. My impression was that is was an
attitude thing. No wonder you're ticked.
>Your gender was never attacked.
Stick around. You'll see many guys who are good & kind & funny & wondering how to
get out in a world designed for the assertive, not the shy. And then every 2 months
or so, the prickly sorts will get bummed at this arrangement and blame women for
being weak sorts who only like jerks (to which I sadly admit there are *some* who
are). I suppose this posting got me going and you saw my first outburst, as I had
been trying to be oh so polite & positive in the other postings. Nothing personal.
It's all in the timing. Nice girls get tired of being lonely too.
Mirtika Schultz
<<I don't know why you guys whine so much about the Alpha male thing.
After all, you can make a lot of money, get a great car, and women will
fall all over you, because "poof," you ARE an Alpha male. You can be
fat, short, bald, whatever, but you get money and power, and you've got
women falling over you. (Or so goes this theory...)
But this doesn't work for a female (look at all the executive women, and
professional women who have money but can't find a mate). We have to
have plastic surgery (from breast enlargement to liposuction), dye our
hair blonde, wear spike heels (if we are short) whatever, in order to
become an Alpha female. And take a cut in pay, because if we don't, the
men feel inferior.
Not fair, is it?
NB>>
Amen, Sister, preach it!!!!!!
Mir--nodding her head and going, "yep, yep".
jlee
Paul Lindemeyer wrote:
>
> Alex Clark wrote:
> >
> > In article <326AEE...@gannett.infi.net>, pau...@gannett.infi.net
> > says...
> > >I somehow don't suspect the solution will come from the socially
> > >skilled, who are getting theirs (so to speak), or from the truly
> > >helpless, who have no clue how to begin. Some caring psychologist with
> > >a soc. minor ought to write a book and get on all the talkshows.
> >
> > And be ignored on the assumption that "he/she isn't shy, and only
> > someone who has always been very shy can know anything about it."
> > People who have been living with serious problems for a long time find
> > it hard to imagine that there's been a solution within their reach all
> > along. For the short term, it's easier to go on putting up with the
> > problem than it is to change one's expectations.
>
> Hell yes!!!
>
> There's still this. We're hip deep in personal testimonial books a la "I
> beat addiction," "I overcame depression," "I licked chapped lips," etc.
> Why not a book called "I beat shyness?"
>
> That is, if it's ever been *done* ;-) ...
Well, I think it' been done. I think I'm doing it, for one thing. I'm a lot
less shy than I used to be, and getting less shy all the time.
The funny thing is, I used to seem a lot less shy because I drank in
socializing situations and I was quite the flirt after a few drinks. I didnt'
really like drinking, though; I wasn't ever an alcoholic type person, and the
older I got the less I liked the physical effects of alcohol, so I finally
just quit drinking. When I quit, suddenly my shyness hit me like a ton of
bricks and I could barely stand to go anywhere or do anything unless it was
just with people I knew really well. I just about quit going to parties,
clubs, and other social functions, and FORGET dating! So I had to start
dealing with all the things that scare me about being around people, without
the liquid courage backing me up.
It's been about 10 years now since I quit drinking and I've come along way,
although I'm still pretty nervous around the whole dating and flirting arena.
Here's the kicker though--I'm a massage therapist, and I HATE going through
the stuff I go through every time I meet a new client! Once we've been
through that first massage I'm fine, but that first time is a killer. And I
mostly only work with women, so it's not even the normal nervousness that a
lot a MTs go through, wondering if a new guy client is going to turn out to
be looking for sex instead of a massage. (Yes, I'm a real massage therapist,
not a "massage parlor girl")
A couple of my clients got me to start working on their show horses (massage
therapy being the big new thing for hunter-jumper, dressage, and race horses)
and it was such a relief because the shyness issue is not an issue when I
work with the horses. (I've always been a lot closer to animals than people,
know what I mean?) But I decided it was silly to give up on a potential human
clientele just because of my shyness, so I've really been working on it
seriously the last couple of years, since I decided that I want massage
therapy to become my primary source of financial support.
So Paul, to conclude this longwinded diatribe-- I guess when I can meet new
clients & potential boyfriends (2 separate categories!) without the anxiety
level I currently experience, I'll write that book. All you good folks on
this NG can be my witnesses that I was a genuine shy person! I'll even give
you a big discount on my first "Shy People CAN Have It All" workshop... :)
Ok--I"m outta here!
Jenny
JR by theC
I suspect that lower-status women wouldn't be attracted to "alpha males",
since they wouldn't have any reasonable chance of getting their interest
(especially if the women aren't unusually attractive). I think that it's
best for those of us who are shy to seek out those similar to us.
Rogerio Yick Kwong Fung
jlee (jenny...@mail.utexas.edu) wrote:
: this NG can be my witnesses that I was a genuine shy person! I'll even give
: you a big discount on my first "Shy People CAN Have It All" workshop... :)
: Ok--I"m outta here!
: Jenny
What!? No discount in massages?:)
--
Rogerio Fung<Rapa>
"Travelling on a road you can not see
is the same as carving your own way."
Darla J
[blush]
Darla J
Saniman
Hi,
On Sun, 27 Oct 1996 23:23:00 GMT, csb...@ccnga.uwaterloo.ca (Craig
Bruce) wrote:
>
>Indeed: I see four classifications of male socio-personalty types (where
>there are relatively few "pure" individuals):
>
> - Alpha Males
> - Regular Guys
> - NiceGuys(TM)
> - Jerks
>
>Alpha Males are not Jerks. They are outgoing, friendly, intelligent,
>confident, and fun social-group leaders. Jerks immitate some Alpha-Male
>qualities, adding danger and showing off, in order to attract women for sex,
>but underneath that they are shallow psychotic wasteoids.
I'm still trying to understand this Alpha stuff. Let's see if I've
understood. Taking an example then from Melrose Place:
Jake (the owner of shooters) is an Alpha
Matt (the gay student doctor) is a Niceguy
and Dr Mancini (the doctor...duuh) is a jerk
No regular guys on the show as far as I can see.
Well actually now that I look at it, all these guys should be alphas
ie they have stable (ish) jobs, are confident and have good social
skills, all women-bait. So really it should be:
Matt = nice guy alpha
Dr Mancini = Jerk alpha
Jake = alpha alpha (ie a vegetable! ;)
I'm confused,
Jan
EM
> Darla wrote: <<Conversely, I sometimes interpret
> "quietness" as a strong belief in self (confidence tempered with humility)
> that is
> infinitely appealing. I guess it all depends on the persons body language
> (which I
> absorb unconsciously). I think the "quiet types" have a strong (but
> quiet)
> following of their own.>>
Yes, whatever happened to "strong, dark and silent," or whatever it
was? More important than whether someone is shy or not, is
whether he or she has self-confidence. It's true that quiet people
often lack self-confidence, but not always.
I've had reltionships with "alpha" females (whatever that means),
and didn't have to be "alpha" for it to happen. Some ARE attracted
to quiet men.
Mike Long
>
> I have a difficult time forming romantic relationships with women
> because almost all of my shyness is concentrated in that area. I
> don't have a lot of trouble with non-romantic social situations. I
> learned a long time ago that I could use humour to both break the ice
> and to mask my own discomfort. I have more female friends than male
> friends. I can talk with them, I can listen to them, and if all else
> fails, I can always make them laugh. But I find it very difficult to
> move in the direction of romance. The second love rears it's head, I
> freeze like a badger in the headlights. Then I either tuck my tail
> and run or get splattered all over the road like so much lasagna
> (sorry to carry that metaphor so far). I'm a very romantic person,
> I'm just afraid to express it.
>
Boy, can I relate to that!! Once I am in a social situation where someone
else begins the conversation, then I can almost function like a real live
boy! But I have a devil of a time "starting" a conversation. I spent my
childhood getting this pounded into my head: "Only speak when spoken to."
"Children should be seen, not heard." I still can't quite shake it. There
seem to be 3 pieces in the puzzle of meeting new people. 1) Find someplace
where "shy" people group together. (ie bookstore). 2) Strike up a
conversation with someone. 3) Keep the conversation going, and hopefully
learn a bit about the person you have just met. I have #3 down. I'm
working hard on #1. I can't do #2. Unfortunately, without #2, what point
is there in being able to do 1 and 3?? I haven't made a new friend in 10
years. Thankfully, three of my old friends from grade school are still
around.
My problem is with reading non-verbal cues. I can recall many times in
college coming home to visit my folks, and going out to lunch with my mom.
We would leave the restaurant, and my mom would want to know why I wasn't
paying any attention to a particular girl. "Couldn't you see she was
interested?" she would ask. I never could, and still can't. I always
thought they were staring at the funny-looking guy. I still believe that
to a smaller degree.
If there are any ladies out there, could you offer me a bit of advise? How
do I know when a lady is sending me non-verbal cues? I just seem to be
body-language impaired, and I sure would like to learn. Any help is
greatly appreciated. Thanks!!
Mike
--
If a tree falls on a mime in forest, does he make a sound?
TCM
> But this doesn't work for a female (look at all the executive women, and
> professional women who have money but can't find a mate). We have to
> have plastic surgery (from breast enlargement to liposuction), dye our
> hair blonde, wear spike heels (if we are short) whatever, in order to
> become an Alpha female. And take a cut in pay, because if we don't, the
> men feel inferior.
[This is not necessarily to the person I'm replying to]
Nobody seems to have replied to this, so I'll take it up.
I can't speak much for other guys because I'm not the "fwoor, look at
the tits on that one" type, it's not the sort of thing I've discussed
with guys...
Anyway, I don't find bigger to be better/sexier/more attractive
(opposite infact - to a point :)), I know I'm not completely alone here
because one of my friends once said something to the effect of "Elle
Macphersons are perfect, not to small and not too big" - implying that
he at least has an upper limit :) Look at the Venus (Goddess of
beauty?), not exactly Dolly Parton...
This said, _I_ find the idea of silicon implants gross, I could waffle
on and on here but the point I'm trying to make is you dont need them to
be sexy - _really_ sexy (what happens when you die? Do they biodegrade
or are they removed?). You also don't need to be blond, (I personally
prefer dark brown, I _hate_ having a hair preference - it makes me feel
so shallow, but I can't change it, you-know.. primal stuff).
I don't think many guys would feel inferior or have a problem with their
SO earning more than them (hey, more to spend on them!), but I may be
wrong here, I wouldn't have a problem (unless I was earning nothing,
then I'd feel a bit like a leech).
Is it because exec women often put their career first?
Bill Gates wasn't exactly swamped ;)
Alex Clark
In article <jackalope.-29...@jackalope.reno.nv.us>,
jackalope.@greatbasin.net says...
>We would leave the restaurant, and my mom would want to know why I
>wasn't paying any attention to a particular girl. "Couldn't you see she
Before the next time you go out with your mom, tell her (if you can
bring yourself to speak when not spoken to :-/) that you absolutely
forbid her to point out, afterwards, any girls who were interested in
you. If she can't be bothered to tell you until it's too late, she has
no excuse for saying anything about it at all.
Alex Clark
Mirtika Schultz
Alex Clark wrote to jackalope: <<Before the next time you go out with
your mom, tell her (if you can bring yourself to speak when not spoken
to :-/) that you absolutely forbid her to point out, afterwards, any
girls who were interested in you. If she can't be bothered to tell you
until it's too late, she has no excuse for saying anything about it at
all.>>
Using those terms might leave Mom miffed. How about just askin Mom to
bring it to jackalope's attention, _promptly_ and clearly, anytime she
notices that a gal is looking his way with yummy intent. : >
I think Mom would be more cooperative with the "sugar" approach.
Mir
Charles
Has anyone had any experiences treating shyness or social phobia with
hypnosis?
Charles Thanks
Frizzle Fry
>My problem is with reading non-verbal cues. I can recall many times in
>college coming home to visit my folks, and going out to lunch with my mom.
>We would leave the restaurant, and my mom would want to know why I wasn't
>paying any attention to a particular girl. "Couldn't you see she was
>interested?" she would ask. I never could, and still can't. I always
>thought they were staring at the funny-looking guy. I still believe that
>to a smaller degree.
Damn! So true for me. That has happened so many times to me. It makes
me feel stupid that my mom/sister/friend picked up on something and I
didn't even realise it. You're one step ahead of me to be able to
notice that they are staring/looking in your direction. I assume that
most of the girls I'm intrested in are taked. (I never bother to find
out though). I assume that they're not really intrested in me, that I
would be making a stupid mistake by thinking that, maybe they were
looking at something or someone else.
Eric Pepke
In article <55a2dj$3...@news.emi.com>, ccl...@vicon.net (Alex Clark) wrote:
> Before the next time you go out with your mom, tell her (if you can
> bring yourself to speak when not spoken to :-/) that you absolutely
> forbid her to point out, afterwards, any girls who were interested in
> you. If she can't be bothered to tell you until it's too late, she has
> no excuse for saying anything about it at all.
I strongly, strongly, strongly agree.
My mother used to play a little game with me. We'd be going through the
checkout line at the supermarket. Maybe the woman at the register would
look at me. Then, as we'd leave, my mother would tell me that the woman
was flirting with me. Then, just as we were about to go out the door, she
would say "Wait a minute." She would go back and talk to the checkout
woman. Then she'd come back to me and say, "I told her that you were only
XX," where XX was my current age, with the clear implication that I was
too young for her to flirt with me.
I told this once to a friend of mine. She said, "Jesus. Pink Floyd has
gotten entire albums out of less than that."
I think this is an accurate assessment.
Owl
The worst thing is when you're on your own and you try to pick up some
clues. You pluck up courage to approach a 'possible' - and it turns out
she WAS looking at someone else! Doh! Back in the shy cupboard for a few
more months.
Joh
In article <55tb38$d...@herald.concentric.net>, k...@hotmail.com says...
>I've tried the non-verbal clues method myself on women but it doesn't work
>so why should I let it work for them?
Because you want some female companionship?
Eric Pepke
> Has anyone had any experiences treating shyness or social phobia with
> hypnosis?
I've used self-hypnosis. It helps, but it isn't a magic bullet.
Eric Pepke
In article <55tb38$d...@herald.concentric.net>, k...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I've tried the non-verbal clues method myself on women but it doesn't work so
> why should I let it work for them?
Depends on what the goal is. If the goal is to be stubborn, then not
doing it is a good way to accomplish the goal. If the goal is to have
companionship and/or sex with women, then not doing it is a poor way to
accomplish the goal.