Big Brother is watching you ( Echelon )
Xenos the elder
Echelon is perhaps the most powerful intelligence gathering organization
in the world. Several credible reports suggest that this global
electronic communications surveillance system presents an extreme threat
to the privacy of people all over the world. According to these reports,
ECHELON attempts to capture staggering volumes of satellite, microwave,
cellular and fiber-optic traffic, including communications to and from
North America. This vast quantity of voice and data communications are
then processed through sophisticated filtering technologies.
This massive surveillance system apparently operates with little
oversight. Moreover, the agencies that purportedly run ECHELON have
provided few details as to the legal guidelines for the project. Because
of this, there is no way of knowing if ECHELON is being used illegally
to spy on private citizens.
This site is designed to encourage public discussion of this potential
threat to civil liberties, and to urge the governments of the world to
protect our rights.
Answers to Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) about Echelon
Updated February 7, 2002
Q - What is Project ECHELON?
ECHELON is the term popularly used for an automated global interception
and relay system operated by the intelligence agencies in five nations:
the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and New Zealand
(it is believed that ECHELON is the code name for the portion of the
system that intercepts satellite-based communications). While the United
States National Security Agency (NSA) takes the lead, ECHELON works in
conjunction with other intelligence agencies, including the Australian
Defence Signals Directorate (DSD). It is believed that ECHELON also
works with Britain's Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ) and
the agencies of other allies of the United States, pursuant to various
treaties. (1)
These countries coordinate their activities pursuant to the UKUSA
agreement, which dates back to 1947. The original ECHELON dates back to
1971. However, its capabilities and priorities have expanded greatly
since its formation. According to reports, it is capable of intercepting
and processing many types of transmissions, throughout the globe. In
fact, it has been suggested that ECHELON may intercept as many as 3
billion communications everyday, including phone calls, e-mail messages,
Internet downloads, satellite transmissions, and so on. (2) The ECHELON
system gathers all of these transmissions indiscriminately, then
distills the information that is most heavily desired through artificial
intelligence programs. Some sources have claimed that ECHELON sifts
through an estimated 90 percent of all traffic that flows through the
Internet. (3)
However, the exact capabilities and goals of ECHELON remain unclear. For
example, it is unknown whether ECHELON actually targets domestic
communications. Also, it is apparently very difficult for ECHELON to
intercept certain types of transmissions, particularly fiber
communications.
Q - How does ECHELON work?
ECHELON apparently collects data in several ways. Reports suggest it has
massive ground based radio antennae to intercept satellite
transmissions. In addition, some sites reputedly are tasked with tapping
surface traffic. These antennae reportedly are in the United States,
Italy, England, Turkey, New Zealand, Canada, Australia, and several
other places. (4)
Similarly, it is believed that ECHELON uses numerous satellites to catch
"spillover" data from transmissions between cities. These satellites
then beam the information down to processing centers on the ground. The
main centers are in the United States (near Denver), England (Menwith
Hill), Australia, and Germany. (5)
According to various sources, ECHELON also routinely intercepts Internet
transmissions. The organization allegedly has installed numerous
"sniffer" devices. These "sniffers" collect information from data
packets as they traverse the Internet via several key junctions. It also
uses search software to scan for web sites that may be of interest. (6)
Furthermore, it is believed that ECHELON has even used special
underwater devices which tap into cables that carry phone calls across
the seas. According to published reports, American divers were able to
install surveillance devices on to the underwater cables. One of these
taps was discovered in 1982, but other devices apparently continued to
function undetected. (7)
It is not known at this point whether ECHELON has been able to tap fiber
optic phone cables.
Finally, if the aforementioned methods fail to garner the desired
information, there is another alternative. Apparently, the nations that
are involved with ECHELON also train special agents to install a variety
of special data collection devices. One of these devices is reputed to
be an information processing kit that is the size of a suitcase. Another
such item is a sophisticated radio receiver that is as small as a credit
card. (8)
After capturing this raw data, ECHELON sifts through them using
DICTIONARY. DICTIONARY is actually a special system of computers which
finds pertinent information by searching for key words, addresses, etc.
These search programs help pare down the voluminous quantity of
transmissions which pass through the ECHELON network every day. These
programs also seem to enable users to focus on any specific subject upon
which information is desired. (9)
Q - If ECHELON is so powerful, why haven't I heard about it before?
The United States government has gone to extreme lengths to keep ECHELON
a secret. To this day, the U.S. government refuses to admit that ECHELON
even exists. We know it exists because both the governments of Australia
(through its Defence Signals Directorate) and New Zealand have admitted
to this fact. (10) However, even with this revelation, US officials have
refused to comment.
This "wall of silence" is beginning to erode. The first report on
ECHELON was published in 1988. (11) In addition, besides the revelations
from Australia, the Scientific and Technical Options Assessment program
office (STOA) of the European Parliament commissioned two reports which
describe ECHELON's activities. These reports unearthed a startling
amount of evidence, which suggests that Echelon's powers may have been
underestimated. The first report, entitled "An Appraisal of Technologies
of Political Control," suggested that ECHELON primarily targeted civilians.
This report found that:
"The ECHELON system forms part of the UKUSA system but unlike many of
the electronic spy systems developed during the cold war, ECHELON is
designed for primarily non-military targets: governments, organisations
and businesses in virtually every country. The ECHELON system works by
indiscriminately intercepting very large quantities of communications
and then siphoning out what is valuable using artificial intelligence
aids like Memex to find key words. Five nations share the results with
the US as the senior partner under the UKUSA agreement of 1948, Britain,
Canada, New Zealand and Australia are very much acting as subordinate
information servicers.
"Each of the five centres supply "dictionaries" to the other four of
keywords, phrases, people and places to "tag" and the tagged intercept
is forwarded straight to the requesting country. Whilst there is much
information gathered about potential terrorists, there is a lot of
economic intelligence, notably intensive monitoring of all the countries
participating in the GATT negotiations. But Hager found that by far the
main priorities of this system continued to be military and political
intelligence applicable to their wider interests. Hager quotes from a
"highly placed intelligence operatives" who spoke to the Observer in
London. "We feel we can no longer remain silent regarding that which we
regard to be gross malpractice and negligence within the establishment
in which we operate." They gave as examples. GCHQ interception of three
charities, including Amnesty International and Christian Aid. "At any
time GCHQ is able to home in on their communications for a routine
target request," the GCHQ source said. In the case of phone taps the
procedure is known as Mantis. With telexes its called Mayfly. By keying
in a code relating to third world aid, the source was able to
demonstrate telex "fixes" on the three organisations. With no system of
accountability, it is difficult to discover what criteria determine who
is not a target." (12)
A more recent report, known as Interception Capabilities 2000, describes
ECHELON capabilities in even more elaborate detail. (13) The release of
the report sparked accusations from the French government that the
United States was using ECHELON to give American companies an advantage
over rival firms. (14) In response, R. James Woolsey, the former head of
the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), charged that the French
government was using bribes to get lucrative deals around the world, and
that US surveillance networks were used simply to level the playing
field. (15) However, experts have pointed out that Woolsey missed
several key points. For example, Woolsey neglected to mention alleged
instances of economic espionage (cited in Intelligence Capabilities
2000) that did not involve bribery. Furthermore, many observers
expressed alarm with Woolsey's apparent assertion that isolated
incidents of bribery could justify the wholesale interception of the
world's communications. (16)
The European Parliament formed a temporary Committee of Enquiry to
investigate ECHELON abuses. (17) In May 2001, members of this committee
visited the United States in an attempt to discover more details about
ECHELON. However, officials from both the NSA and the US Central
Intelligence Agency (CIA) canceled meetings that they had previously
scheduled with the European panel. The committee's chairman, Carlos
Coelho, said that his group was "very disappointed" with the apparent
rebuffs; in protest, the Parliamentary representatives returned home a
day early. (18)
Afterwards, the committee published a report stating that ECHELON does
indeed exist and that individuals should strongly consider encrypting
their emails and other Internet messages. (19) However, the panel was
unable to confirm suspicions that ECHELON is used to conduct industrial
espionage, due to a lack of evidence. (20) Ironically, the report also
mentioned the idea that European government agents should be allowed
greater powers to decrypt electronic communications, which was
criticized by some observers (including several members of the
committee) as giving further support to Europe's own ECHELON-type
system. (21) The European Parliament approved the report, but despite
the apparent need for further investigation, the committee was
disbanded. (22) Nevertheless, the European Commission plans to draft a
"roadmap" for data protection that will address many of the concerns
aired by the EP panel. (23)
Meanwhile, after years of denying the existence of ECHELON, the Dutch
government issued a letter that stated: "Although the Dutch government
does not have official confirmation of the existence of Echelon by the
governments related to this system, it thinks it is plausible this
network exists. The government believes not only the governments
associated with Echelon are able to intercept communication systems, but
that it is an activity of the investigative authorities and intelligence
services of many countries with governments of different political
signature." (24) These revelations worried Dutch legislators, who had
convened a special hearing on the subject. During the hearing, several
experts argued that there must be tougher oversight of government
surveillance activities. There was also considerable criticism of Dutch
government efforts to protect individual privacy, particularly the fact
that no information had been made available relating to Dutch
intelligence service's investigation of possible ECHELON abuses.(25)
In addition, an Italian government official has begun to investigate
Echelon's intelligence-gathering efforts, based on the belief that the
organization may be spying on European citizens in violation of Italian
or international law. (26)
Events in the United States have also indicated that the "wall of
silence" might not last much longer. Exercising their Constitutionally
created oversight authority, members of the House Select Committee on
Intelligence started asking questions about the legal basis for NSA's
ECHELON activities. In particular, the Committee wanted to know if the
communications of Americans were being intercepted and under what
authority, since US law severely limits the ability of the intelligence
agencies to engage in domestic surveillance. When asked about its legal
authority, NSA invoked the attorney-client privilege and refused to
disclose the legal standards by which ECHELON might have conducted its
activities. (27)
President Clinton then signed into law a funding bill which required the
NSA to report on the legal basis for ECHELON and similar activities.
(28) However, the subsequent report (entitled Legal Standards for the
Intelligence Community in Conducting Electronic Surveillance) gave few
details about Echelon's operations and legality. (29)
However, during these proceedings, Rep. Bob Barr (R-GA), who has taken
the lead in Congressional efforts to ferret out the truth about ECHELON,
stated that he had arranged for the House Government Reform and
Oversight Committee to hold its own oversight hearings.(30)
Finally, the Electronic Privacy Information Center has sued the US
Government, hoping to obtain documents which would describe the legal
standards by which ECHELON operates.(31)
Q - What is being done with the information that ECHELON collects?
The original purpose of ECHELON was to protect national security. That
purpose continues today. For example, we know that ECHELON is gathering
information on North Korea. Sources from Australia's DSD have disclosed
this much because Australian officials help operate the facilities there
which scan through transmissions, looking for pertinent material. (32)
Similarly, the Spanish government has apparently signed a deal with the
United States to receive information collected using ECHELON. The
consummation of this agreement was confirmed by Spanish Foreign Minister
Josep Pique, who tried to justify this arrangement on security grounds. (33)
However, national security is not Echelon's only concern. Reports have
indicated that industrial espionage has become a part of Echelon's
activities. While present information seems to suggest that only
high-ranking government officials have direct control over Echelon's
tasks, the information that is gained may be passed along at the
discretion of these very same officials. As a result, much of this
information has been given to American companies, in apparent attempts
to give these companies an edge over their less knowledgeable
counterparts. (34)
In addition, there are concerns that Echelon's actions may be used to
stifle political dissent. Many of these concerns were voiced in a report
commissioned by the European Parliament. What is more, there are no
known safeguards to prevent such abuses of power. (35)
Q - Is there any evidence that ECHELON is doing anything improper or
illegal with the spying resources at its disposal?
ECHELON is a highly classified operation, which is conducted with little
or no oversight by national parliaments or courts. Most of what is known
comes from whistleblowers and classified documents. The simple truth is
that there is no way to know precisely what ECHELON is being used for.
But there is evidence, much of which is circumstantial, that ECHELON
(along with its British counterpart) has been engaged in significant
invasions of privacy. These alleged violations include secret
surveillance of political organizations, such as Amnesty International.
(36) It has also been reported that ECHELON has engaged in industrial
espionage on various private companies such as Airbus Industries and
Panavia, then has passed along the information to their American
competitors. (37) It is unclear just how far Echelon's activities have
harmed private individuals.
However, the most sensational revelation was that Diana, Princess of
Wales may have come under ECHELON surveillance before she died. As
reported in the Washington Post, the NSA admitted that they possessed
files on the Princess, partly composed of intercepted phone
conversations. While one official from the NSA claimed that the Princess
was never a direct target, this disclosure seems to indicates the
intrusive, yet surreptitious manner by which ECHELON operates. (38)
What is even more disquieting is that, if these allegations are proven
to be true, the NSA and its compatriot organizations may have
circumvented countless laws in numerous countries. Many nations have
laws in place to prevent such invasions of privacy. However, there are
suspicions that ECHELON has engaged in subterfuge to avoid these legal
restrictions. For example, it is rumored that nations would not use
their own agents to spy on their own citizens, but assign the task to
agents from other countries. (39) In addition, as mentioned earlier, it
is unclear just what legal standards ECHELON follows, if any actually
exist. Thus, it is difficult to say what could prevent ECHELON from
abusing its remarkable capabilities.
Q - Is everyone else doing what ECHELON does?
Maybe not everyone else, but there are plenty of other countries that
engage in the type of intelligence gathering that ECHELON performs.
These countries apparently include Russia, France, Israel, India,
Pakistan and many others. (40) Indeed, the excesses of these
ECHELON-like operations are rumored to be similar in form to their
American equivalents, including digging up information for private
companies to give them a commercial advantage.
However, it is also known that ECHELON system is the largest of its
kind. What is more, its considerable powers are enhanced through the
efforts of America's allies, including the United Kingdom, Canada,
Australia, and New Zealand. Other countries don't have the resources to
engage in the massive garnering of information that the United States is
carrying out.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notes
1. Development of Surveillance Technology and Risk of Abuse of Economic
Information (An appraisal of technologies for political control), Part
4/4: The state of the art in Communications Intelligence (COMINT) of
automated processing for intelligence purposes of intercepted broadband
multi-language leased or common carrier systems, and its applicability
to COMINT targeting and selection, including speech recognition, Ch. 1,
para. 5, PE 168.184 / Part 4/4 (April 1999). See Duncan Campbell,
Interception Capabilities 2000 (April 1999)
(http://www.iptvreports.mcmail.com/stoa_cover.htm).
2. Kevin Poulsen, Echelon Revealed, ZDTV (June 9, 1999).
3. Greg Lindsay, The Government Is Reading Your E-Mail, TIME DIGITAL
DAILY (June 24, 1999).
4. PE 168.184 / Part 4/4, supra note 1, Ch. 2, para. 32-34, 45-46.
5. Id. Ch. 2, para. 42.
6. Id. Ch. 2, para. 60.
7. Id. Ch. 2, para. 50.
8. Id. Ch. 2, para. 62-63.
9. An Appraisal of Technologies for Political Control, at 20, PE 166.499
(January 6, 1998). See Steve Wright, An Appraisal of Technologies for
Political Control (January 6, 1998) (http://cryptome.org/stoa-atpc.htm).
10. Letter from Martin Brady, Director, Defence Signals Directorate, to
Ross Coulhart, Reporter, Nine Network Australia 2 (Mar. 16, 1999) (on
file with the author); see also Calls for inquiry into spy bases, ONE
NEWS New Zealand (Dec. 28, 1999).
11. Duncan Campbell, Somebody's listening, NEW STATESMAN, 12 August
1988, Cover, pages 10-12. See Duncan Campbell, ECHELON: NSA's Global
Electronic Interception, (last visited October 12, 1999)
(http://jya.com/echelon-dc.htm).
12. PE 166.499, supra note 9, at 19-20.
13. PE 168.184 / Part 4/4, supra note 1.
14. David Ruppe, Snooping on Friends?, ABCNews.com (US) (Feb. 25, 2000)
(http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/dailynews/echelon000224.html).
15. R. James Woolsey, Why We Spy on Our Allies, WALL ST. J., March 17,
2000. See also CRYPTOME, Ex-CIA Head: Why We Spy on Our Allies (last
visited April 11, 2000) (http://cryptome.org/echelon-cia2.htm).
16. Letter from Duncan Campbell to the Wall Street Journal (March 20,
2000) (on file with the author). See also Kevin Poulsen, Echelon
Reporter answers Ex-CIA Chief, SecurityFocus.com (March 23, 2000)
(http://www.securityfocus.com/news/6).
17. Duncan Campbell, Flaw in Human Rights Uncovered, HEISE TELEPOLIS,
April 8, 2000. See also HEISE ONLINE, Flaw in Human Rights Uncovered
(April 8, 2000) (http://www.heise.de/tp/english/inhalt/co/6724/1.html).
18.Angus Roxburgh, EU investigators 'snubbed' in US, BBC News, May 11,
2001
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1325000/1325186.stm).
19.Report on the existence of a global system for intercepting private
and commercial communications (ECHELON interception system), PE 305.391
(July 11, 2001) (available in PDF or Word format at
http://www2.europarl.eu.int).
20. Id.; see also E-mail users warned over spy network, BBC News, May
29, 2001
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1357000/1357264.stm).
21. Steve Kettman, Echelon Furor Ends in a Whimper, Wired News, July 3,
2001 (http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,44984,00.html).
22. European Parliament resolution on the existence of a global system
for the interception of private and commercial communications (ECHELON
interception system) (2001/2098(INI)), A5-0264/2001, PE 305.391/DEF
(Sept. 5, 2001) (available at http://www3.europarl.eu.int); Christiane
Schulzki-Haddouti, Europa-Parlament verabsciedet Echelon-Bericht, Heise
Telepolis, Sept. 5, 2001 (available at http://www.heise.de/tp/); Steve
Kettman, Echelon Panel Calls It a Day, Wired News, June 21, 2001
(http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,44721,00.html).
23. European Commission member Erkki Liikanen, Speech regarding European
Parliament motion for a resolution on the Echelon interception system
(Sept. 5, 2001) (transcript available at http://europa.eu.int).
24. Jelle van Buuren, Dutch Government Says Echelon Exists, Heise
Telepolis, Jan. 20, 2001 (available at http://www.heise.de/tp/).
25. Jelle van Buuren, Hearing On Echelon In Dutch Parliament, Heise
Telepolis, Jan. 23, 2001 (available at http://www.heise.de/tp/).
26. Nicholas Rufford, Spy Station F83, SUNDAY TIMES (London), May 31,
1998. See Nicholas Rufford, Spy Station F83 (May 31, 1998)
(http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/98/05/31/stifocnws01003.html?999).
27. H. Rep. No. 106-130 (1999). See Intelligence Authorization Act for
Fiscal Year 2000, Additional Views of Chairman Porter J. Goss
(http://www.echelonwatch.org/goss.htm).
28. Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2000, Pub. L.
106-120, Section 309, 113 Stat. 1605, 1613 (1999). See H.R. 1555
Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2000 (Enrolled Bill (Sent
to President)) http://www.echelonwatch.org/hr1555c.htm).
29. UNITED STATES NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY, LEGAL STANDARDS FOR THE
INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY IN CONDUCTING ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE (2000)
(http://www.fas.org/irp/nsa/standards.html).
30. House Committee to Hold Privacy Hearings, (August 16, 1999)
(http://www.house.gov/barr/p_081699.html).
31. ELECTRONIC PRIVACY INFORMATION CENTER, PRESS RELEASE: LAWSUIT SEEKS
MEMOS ON SURVEILLANCE OF AMERICANS; EPIC LAUNCHES STUDY OF NSA
INTERCEPTION ACTIVITIES (1999). See also Electronic Privacy Information
Center, EPIC Sues for NSA Surveillance Memos (last visited December 17,
1999) (http://www.epic.org/open_gov/foia/nsa_suit_12_99.html).
32. Ross Coulhart, Echelon System: FAQs and website links, (May 23, 1999).
33. Isambard Wilkinson, US wins Spain's favour with offer to share spy
network material, Sydney Morning Herald, June 18, 2001
(http://www.smh.com.au/news/0106/18/text/world11.html).
34. PE 168.184 / Part 4/4, supra note 1, Ch. 5, para. 101-103.
35. PE 166.499, supra note 9, at 20.
36. Id.
37. PE 168.184 / Part 4/4, supra note 1, Ch. 5, para. 101-102; Brian
Dooks, EU vice-president to claim US site spies on European business,
YORKSHIRE POST, Jan. 30, 2002 (available at http://yorkshirepost.co.uk).
38. Vernon Loeb, NSA Admits to Spying on Princess Diana, WASHINGTON
POST, December 12, 1998, at A13. See Vernon Loeb, NSA Admits to Spying
on Princess Diana, WASHINGTON POST, A13 (December 12, 1998)
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/dec98/diana12.htm).
39. Ross Coulhart, Big Brother is listening, (May 23, 1999).
40. PE 168.184 / Part 4/4, supra note 1, Ch. 1, para. 7.
Ray Gordon
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"Xenos the elder" <dimitr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:40637080...@yahoo.com...
Xenos the elder
Never mind.
Those idiots of big brother have been collection zillions of
information's about 100s millions of people worldwide.
Wonder who will ever read that stuff.
80% of the worlds population hates Bush.
They have to put it all on file.
Waste of tax payers money.
Stealing industrial secrets from the French and others ....
that's something different but listening to millions of people who hate
the current legislation under Bush is a waste of money and time.
I wonder when they get Bin Laden or find the infamous WMD.
I wonder what is with those rumors that on the day of 911 the entire
floor of the " Home Defense Department " in the Twin Towers was deserted.
Not ONE person from that department was there on that particular day.
Not even a secretary to answer phone calls.
Must be a coincidence.
" In Bush we trust ".
HAHAHAHA
Storm
"Ray Gordon" <r...@cybersheet.com> wrote in message
news:%gK8c.10973$7F....@nwrdny03.gnilink.net...
> If so, I hope he has his Maalox out.
>
> --
Hey, will you SUE ME, if I tell you to snip your damn one liner replies to
large messages?
Casey
> Echelon is perhaps the most powerful intelligence gathering organization
> in the world. Several credible reports suggest that this global
> electronic communications surveillance system presents an extreme threat
> to the privacy of people all over the world. According to these reports,
> ECHELON attempts to capture staggering volumes of satellite, microwave,
> cellular and fiber-optic traffic, including communications to and from
> North America. This vast quantity of voice and data communications are
> then processed through sophisticated filtering technologies.
Are you personally aware of anyone who's divorced because of this?
Casey
"Character is doing what is right when nobody is watching"
Tracey
Well, I know of a lot of people who worked in the field who divorced.
Does that count?
Tracey
Casey
Sure.... maybe we can convince them to post here.
You know, I'm sure there's some irony in some of those situations.
Nothing like keeping track of tons of communications as part of your
daily job, but then going home and wondering if your spouse is secretly
talking to someone else all the time.
Xenos the elder
2 times the French lost a billion dollar deal because of this.
It was in the papers.
Airplanes to Saudi Arabia was the one deal they lost because of email
interception in the internet ( intercepted by American unintelligent
forces )
In the height of the Iraq crises the conversations between the German
foreign minister and it's counter part where tappet.
The last thing in the news was that Americans were listening to the
telephone conversation between Blix and the secretary of the UN.
Xenos the elder
I know we have at least one CIA agent in this group.
Should have also some people who work in the weapon industry since this
is the biggest USofA enterprise.
More then 90% of the expenses of the last gulf war were paid by other
countries then the USA.
Does not seam to work as good this time.
Shure oil should not be a problem.
>
> Tracey
>
bogart
on peoples' fears and persuading us to go there. We would
be wise if we were aware of this distraction to a balanced focus.
Are you a journalist Xenos ?
bogey
bogart
do you think x-ray scanners on asd writing would help ?
Is the world ending tomorrow ?
Should I hide my head under a blanket ?
Where is agent Scully when you need her ?
bogey
Casey
> Casey wrote:
> > Xenos the elder said...
> >
> > > Echelon is perhaps the most powerful intelligence gathering organization
> > > in the world. Several credible reports suggest that this global
> > > electronic communications surveillance system presents an extreme threat
> > > to the privacy of people all over the world. According to these reports,
> > > ECHELON attempts to capture staggering volumes of satellite, microwave,
> > > cellular and fiber-optic traffic, including communications to and from
> > > North America. This vast quantity of voice and data communications are
> > > then processed through sophisticated filtering technologies.
> >
> > Are you personally aware of anyone who's divorced because of this?
> >
>
> It was in the papers.
> The last thing in the news was that Americans were listening to the
> telephone conversation between Blix and the secretary of the UN.
I don't believe that was much of an answer to my question. You didn't
even mention the word "divorce".
Skip
Tinfoil covered colanders. Echelon can't intercept your brain waves if you're
wearing it.
Xenos the elder
bogart wrote:
>> I know we have at least one CIA agent in this group.
>
>
> do you think x-ray scanners on asd writing would help ?
I was not afraid of fascist's then and i am not now.
>
> Is the world ending tomorrow ?
Your world or my?
> Should I hide my head under a blanket ?
If you feel like.
>
> Where is agent Scully when you need her ?
Hollywood is not real life.
>
> bogey
>
Xenos the elder
Xenos the elder
us and make money out of.
What would the Am. and the British do if the Germans and French would
create a huge spy network to spy on them.
When the French minister was talking with he's German counterpart "
somebody was listening ".
You don't believe me? Check the papers.
Blixen and the General Secretary Annan was talking with each other and
US spies was listening to their conversation.
It was in the news check it if you don't believe me.
bogart wrote:
> It is true that journalists make money by focussing
> on peoples' fears and persuading us to go there. We would
> be wise if we were aware of this distraction to a balanced focus.
>
> Are you a journalist Xenos ?
No. Because i don't believe in terrorism.
It's a hype.
After the collapse of communism the military industrial complex of the
USofA needed a new enemy.
They got one.
Xenos the elder
You are the one who needs a tinfoil.
And put fast curing cement on top of that.
Xenos the elder
bogart wrote:
>> I know we have at least one CIA agent in this group.
>
>
> do you think x-ray scanners on asd writing would help ?
I was thinking that you were more intelligent.
Xenos the elder
Bush's Brand New Enemy is the Truth
By Sydney Blumenthal
The Guardian UK
Thursday 25 March 2004
Clarke's claims have shaken the White House to its foundations
One of the first official acts of the current Bush administration
was to downgrade the office of national coordinator for
counterterrorism on the National Security Council - a position held by
Richard Clarke. Clarke had served in the Pentagon and State Department
under presidents Reagan and Bush the elder, and was the first person
to hold the counterterrorism job created by President Clinton. Under
Clinton, he was elevated to cabinet rank, which gave him a seat at the
principals' meeting, the highest decision-making group for national
security.
By removing Clarke from the table, Bush put him in a box where he
could speak only when spoken to. No longer would his memos go to the
president; instead, they had to pass though a chain of command of
national security adviser Condoleezza Rice and her deputy, Stephen
Hadley, who bounced each of them back.
Terrorism was a Clinton issue: "soft" and obscure, having
something to do with "globalisation", and other trends ridiculed from
the Republican party platform. "In January 2001 the new administration
really thought Clinton's recommendation that eliminating al-Qaida be
one of their highest priorities, well, rather odd, like so many of the
Clinton administration's actions, from their perspective," Clarke
writes in his new book, Against All Enemies. When Clarke first met
Rice and immediately raised the question of dealing with al-Qaida, she
"gave me the impression she had never heard the term before".
The controversy raging around Clarke's book and his testimony
before the 9/11 commission that Bush ignored warnings about terrorism
that might have prevented the attacks revolves around his singularly
unimpeachable credibility. In response, Bush has launched an offensive
against him, impugning his personal motives, saying he is a
disappointed job-hunter, publicity-mad, a political partisan,
ignorant, irrelevant - and a liar.
Clarke's reputation in the Clinton White House was that he could
be brusque and passionate, but also calm and single-minded. He was a
complete professional, who was a master of the bureaucracy. He didn't
suffer fools gladly, stood up to superiors and didn't care who he
alienated. His flaw was his indispensable virtue: he was direct and
candid in telling the unvarnished truth.
But his account need not stand on his reputation alone. Clarke
was not the only national security professional who spanned both the
Clinton and Bush administrations. General Donald Kerrick served as
deputy national security adviser under Clinton and remained on the NSC
into the Bush administration. He wrote his replacement, Stephen
Hadley, a two-page memo. "It was classified," Kerrick told me. "I said
they needed to pay attention to al-Qaida and counterterrorism. I said
we were going to be struck again. They never once asked me a question,
nor did I see them having a serious discussion about it ... I agree
with Dick that they saw those problems through an Iraqi prism. But the
evidence, the intelligence, wasn't there."
Rice now claims about terrorism that "we were at battle
stations". But Bush is quoted by Bob Woodward in Bush At War as saying
that before September 11 "I was not on point ... I didn't feel that
sense of urgency". Cheney alleges that Clarke was "out of the loop".
But if he was, then the administration was either running a rogue
operation or doing nothing, as Clarke testifies.
Bush protests now: "And had my administration had any information
that terrorists were going to attack New York City on September 11, we
would have acted." But he had plenty of information. The former deputy
attorney general, Jamie Gorelick, the only member of the 9/11
commission to read the president's daily brief, revealed in the
hearings that the documents "would set your hair on fire" and that the
intelligence warnings of al-Qaida attacks "plateaued at a spike level
for months" before September 11. Bush is fighting public release of
these PDBs, which would show whether he had marked them up and
demanded action.
The administration's furious response to Clarke only underscores
his book. Rice is vague, forgetful and dissembling. Cheney is
belligerent, certain and bluffing. In Clarke's account, as in the
memoir of former secretary of the treasury Paul O'Neill, Bush is
disengaged, incurious, manipulated by those in the circle around him;
he adopts ill-conceived strategies that he has played little or no
part in preparing. Bush is the Oz behind the curtain, but unlike the
wizard, the special effects are performed by others. Especially on
terrorism and September 11, his White House is at "battle stations" to
prevent the curtain from being pulled open.
-------
Sidney Blumenthal is former senior adviser to President Clinton and
Washington bureau chief of Salon.com
bogart
>> do you think x-ray scanners on asd writing would help ?
>
> I was thinking that you were more intelligent.
don't intelligent people ever have fun Xenos ?
bogey
bogart
Skip, my partner and I laughed very loudly at this. Thankyou
for giving us such pleasure.
bogey and lauren
Xenos the elder
You know what you did. Accusing me of lying and spreading misinformation.
We had those news about Americans spying on us all over the news papers,
radio, tv.
Intercepting email messages, bugging phone lines.
Yes. The Finish news brought this, the French news, the German news.
Don't tell me that British papers wrote nothing about it.
And about ECHELON.
The European parliament knows about it and complained about it.
All this i have from the official news and not some whacko paper or
whacko ng.
So Xenos is crazy fore saying what he hears from the Finish radio and
Finish TV?
So the German Deutche Welle is lying to?
Calling me a lier means you have to call the entire press of West Europe
liers and the European parliament to.
Because from them i get the news.
Fun? You must have plenty of fun accusing me of lying while you know
perfectly well that i speak the truth.
No you did not say i am lying but you ridicule my post and so given the
impression that i am lying and and that i am whacko.
Yes i must be crazy to stand up to lies and propaganda and to want to
speak the truth.
Xenos the elder
This shows your personality bobart.
A " spiritual " hypocrite.
Remember the times you accused the people in this group to be to gloomy?
Because divorce is so much fun.
You wear a tinfoil hat to keep intelligent out and stupidity in.
HAhaha. That was fun
Xenos the elder
Julian Borger in Washington
Thursday March 4, 2004
The Guardian
The British ambassador to the United Nations has been summoned to a
meeting today with the UN secretary general, Kofi Annan, to discuss
allegations that his office had been bugged by British intelligence,
according to UN sources.
The meeting comes a week after the former international development
secretary, Clare Short, stunned both the UN and the Blair government by
announcing on BBC radio that she had seen transcripts of Mr Annan's
intercepted conversations.
The British ambassador at the UN's New York headquarters, Emyr Jones
Parry, was in London at the time of Ms Short's allegations and
telephoned Mr Annan at Tony Blair's request, but according to diplomatic
sources, the conversation did not directly address the bugging issue.
It clearly did not satisfy Mr Annan, whose spokesman, Fred Eckhard,
said: "I think it's probably safe to say that he would like a fuller
explanation."
Neither the British officials nor Mr Eckhard would discuss the subject
of today's meeting but one senior UN source confirmed that it would deal
with the bugging scandal.
"The UK has been very supportive of the UN, and probably everyone is
doing this kind of thing," the UN source said.
"But the secretary general believes this is not something he wants to
look the other way on.
"His private position is his public position: 'How am I going to be
effective if every time I try to call someone the Brits or someone else
are going to be listening in?'."
A British official yesterday would say only that Mr Jones Parry
frequently met Mr Annan in the course of his duties. The two met on
Monday, but on a different matter.
Ms Short's allegations were an acute embarrassment for British diplomats
at the UN, where they have generally argued Britain wields influence
beyond its economic and military power.
The claims followed the government's decision to drop charges against a
former GCHQ translator, Katharine Gun, who had leaked a US request for
help in bugging the offices of security council members.
The former ambassadors of Mexico and Chile have since announced that
their offices near the UN were bugged a year ago, at a time when America
and Britain were trying to persuade the security council to back the
invasion of Iraq.
The UN's former chief weapons inspector Hans Blix told the Guardian last
week that he suspected both his UN office and his home in New York were
bugged in the run-up to the Iraq war.
Xenos the elder
Echelon: The French fight back
Richard Barry
ZDNet UK
June 29, 2000, 11:13 GMT
Tell us your opinion
French companies and individuals take their grievances to court, as
Americans try to justify covert surveillance activities as a necessary
protective measure against European commercial bribery habits
A legal battle that threatens to blow the lid on the covert surveillance
network Echelon will reach the courts by autumn according to the lawyer
leading the assault on America's National Security Agency (NSA). The
plaintiffs, several French corporations and individuals who cannot be
identified, allege that the NSA has spied on them illegally.
[AD]
David Nataf of the Jean Pierre Millet law firm in Paris, says his team
has enough evidence against the NSA to pursue damages for lost business
and for illegal covert activity. If his bid is successful, the case may
also prompt reaction from the European Parliament which could engage the
European Court of Justice, forcing America to cease and desist its
covert activities unless it receives proper authorisation.
At the centre of the allegations is evidence implicating the NSA's
involvement in spying on European nations' commercial dealings. Nataf's
team will try to convince the American courts that stolen information
was passed onto US companies, giving them an unfair advantage over their
French competitors.
A win for the prosecution would be a major embarrassment for America
that will undoubtedly throw suspicion on its business relationships with
other European countries. It will also focus on America's alleged spying
on individuals, including its own citizens, which is illegal under US
Federal law.
"We have known for some time that America has been using Echelon to spy
on our businesses in France," says Nataf. "There is no doubt that it has
been used to win large corporations big business at the expense of
France and other European countries. This is not fair. It is not legal."
As well as seeking recourse for his corporate clients, Nataf has several
individual claimants seeking damages. For them, says Nataf, financial
gain is not the principle motive. "Spying on individuals is in breach of
the European Convention on Human Rights. It is illegal. For us, it is
important that we raise awareness of these actions by America on
European citizens so there can be universal condemnation."
But raising awareness about America's covert activities doesn't appear
to be an issue for the US security forces. In March, a former CIA
director, James Woolsey, confirmed that the US monitors European
communications, to keep an eye on any economic bribery activities. "We
have spied on that [bribery] in the past," said Woolsey responding to
the "Interception Capabilities 2000" report presented to the
parliament's Citizens Rights Committee. "I hope that the United States
government continues to spy on bribery."
Woolsey justified his country's illegal activity further by saying
Europe had a "national culture" of bribery.
France is, understandably upset by Woolsey's views and is keen to show
the rest of the world that even the Americans are not welcome to snoop
on its citizens, or its corporations without severe condemnation. "If
these allegations against the NSA are true, they have serious
implications, not only for businesses, but also for the privacy of
individuals living in Europe," says Graham Watson, MEP and chairman of
the EP committee on Citizens' Freedoms and Rights, Justice and Home
Affairs. "We want these allegations investigated. If they are true, we
will then be looking for a statement from the Council of Ministers which
represents the national governments."
This is where things start to look bad for the Americans. A victory for
Nataf will prompt the Council of Ministers to question whether US
activity contravened European law. The European Court of Justice would
make the decision and the Parliament would fight to have the activity
stopped.
Even Tony Blair could be drawn into the row: it is widely believed the
base at Menwith Hill in Yorkshire is used by America to spy on the rest
of Europe.
But for America, compensating a few companies and individuals is a small
price to pay. "Really there is no punishment," says Paul Lannoye
president of the Green Group in the European Parliament/European Free
Alliance, and an active campaigner against Echelon. "The best this case
can do is raise awareness -- embarrass the people behind Echelon."
Failing that, France is left with two other options according to
Lannoye. "The first is to establish technical answers. This is a war, a
war that will be fought by technical means. For France and other
European states, the challenge is to be advanced enough to repel spying
efforts from the US and other countries. The second option is through
political means [specifically the Committee set up by the Parliament to
look at creating a mandate on spying] which will allow us to set up
meetings with states that want to spy and ensure they do it only when
they receive proper authorisation."
In the meantime Lannoye applauds French businesses and individuals who
employ strong cryptography to protect their data. "Cryptography is big
in France because of these rumours and why not? These people are
concerned about the effects spying has on society. It is dangerous for
the citizens to be spied upon by governments. It is a society where it
is impossible to be free."
Xenos the elder
UN snooping: the technology of surveillance
ZDNet UK Staff
ZDNet UK
February 27, 2004, 14:35 GMT
Tell us your opinion
Western democracies have been evolving networks of international
snooping facilities since the Second World War, whilst the proliferation
of mobile devices is making surveillance easier than ever
[AD]
It doesn't matter if you're Kofi Annan or the wife of the Prince of
Wales: if you're saying something interesting, the spies will listen in.
And their job has never been easier.
Not only has modern technology made bugging devices tiny and silent, we
willingly equip ourselves with gadgets that Q himself would have given
his best tweed jacket for. To us, a mobile phone is an essential social
and business tool: to the state surveillance machine, it's a tracking
device that pinpoints us anywhere in the world and then relays our
conversations and electronic communications over easily intercepted
radio. We even pay for it ourselves.
For all they like to hear us talk, the governments of the world would
rather remain silent on the matter. But as recent events have shown, it
is increasingly hard for them to keep the lid on what they do and how
they do it. We know that since the Second World War, many of the
English-speaking democracies have banded together in pacts that allows
them to spy on each other's citizens without breaking any laws back at
home.
Echelon, a US-led venture that has support from the UK, Canada,
Australia and New Zealand, is a good example. Echelon's function is to
covertly intercept information and pass it to those who need to know.
Its main source of raw information is electronic signals. These can be
carried on radio or on copper or fibre cables: with few exceptions,
wireless signals can be best intercepted remotely while cables need a
physical tap.
ZDNet UK has been watching the watchers for years: take the time to read
what we've found out.
Bush pushes for expansion of surveillance law
The US President wants to renew the Patriot Act, which gives police
far-reaching powers over electronic data
Ruling bars police from in-car computer snooping
A US court has decided that the FBI was wrong to eavesdrop on
conversations inside a car via its on-board computer - but not out of
concern for privacy
Snooping laws may be illegal
A privacy group is alleging that data-gathering laws being implemented
in the UK break human-rights regulations
FBI seeks power to eavesdrop on Net
The FBI wants the right to listen in on Internet phone calls because it
says terrorists can communicate undetected through voice calls placed online
Americans reject antiterrorism database
A project tagged by privacy advocates 'the most intrusive surveillance
programme in US history' has been dumped after a political backlash
Echelon: How it works
How does the covert arm of the intelligence services work? How does
Echelon listen to and see what its targets are doing?
Echelon: World under watch, an introduction
Investigative journalist Duncan Campbell first brought attention to
Echelon through a Dispatches documentary on Channel 4. Here he
introduces a major ZDNet investigation into the new, automated, desktop
snooping
The blind spot in the panopticon
New surveillance technologies may put us all under glass, but those
responsible will have to take the consequences
Text, lies and videophones
The technology of the future could be putting words in your mouth - and
there may be no way to tell imitation from reality.
Echelon: your files in their hands
While the UK government is bound by law not to investigate the affairs
of its citizens without legal safeguards, and the same's true of most
other democracies, they can investigate the affairs of each other's
citizens without worry.
http://insight.zdnet.co.uk/communications/networks/0,39020427,39147432,00.htm
Xenos the elder
Since you seam to know nothing about the UK while living there.
Perhaps you " dream " about the UK but actually live on the planet of oz?
Whistle blown over extent of UK data seizures
Graeme Wearden
ZDNet UK
May 14, 2003, 13:29 GMT
Tell us your opinion
Around one billion pieces of personal data are handed over to the police
and other official bodies each year by communications companies, privacy
advocates have calculated
UK law enforcement and investigative agencies are forcing communications
providers to hand over around one million customer records each year,
Privacy International claimed on Wednesday.
[AD]
The human rights group has calculated that this means almost a billion
individual pieces of data are being released to organisations such as
the police. This includes details of an estimated one hundred million
phone calls, plus logs of email and Internet activity, possibly going
back many years.
There are deep concerns that this information could be used to construct
a dossier of an individual's movements, friendships and transactions.
Privacy International is urging the UK public to contact their
communications operators to find out how much data is being stored about
them. This move, the organisation believes, should help to establish how
much information is kept in customer records and could also encourage
greater respect for privacy.
"We hope that in so doing, all of us will learn a great deal more about
this covert activity," explained Simon Davies, Privacy International's
director.
"It is also likely that the exercise of our data protection rights will
send a clear signal to communications providers and to the government
that people have a high regard for their right to privacy," Davies added.
Further details about this campaign, launched at a public meeting to
discuss data retention and access on Wednesday, can be found at Privacy
International's Web site.
Privacy International's figures were compiled from estimates supplied by
the Home Office and ministerial statements, plus input from legal
experts, communications operators and the All Party Internet Group of MPs.
According to Privacy International, the seizing of such personal
information is in clear defiance of the Data Protection Act. The Home
Office is currently consulting over whether the controversial Regulation
of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA) should be extended to allow more
government bodies to access such details.
Privacy advocates fear that -- despite an outcry last year -- these
existing surveillance powers will be extended.
Internet service providers are concerned about the implications of such
a move, though, both from a legal point of view and because of the cost
of storing very large amounts of data for many years.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For everything Internet-related, from the latest legal and
policy-related news, to domain name updates, see ZDNet UK's Internet
News Section.
Let the editors know what you think in the Mailroom.
( comment: Read the articles from the BBC to. Those are whackos to since
they don't live on oz, the home planet of bogart )
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/internet/0,39020369,2134686,00.htm
bogart
I've read the other posts you made in this thread before
replying. I am sad that you are at the moment identified
with so negative and small a part of yourself. I know
this is a painful place to be.
I don't take your comments as personal at all. Neither am
I making any personal or negative comment about you. I enjoy
what I project as your humourous intelligent oblique style.
You make comments that I have to think about to appreciate
and I enjoy that.
I don't doubt that there is some targetted eavesdropping on
phone conversations. I also am aware that the computational
complexity of scanning in any semantically useful way
all email and phone conversations puts it beyond our
capabilities. The human genome project (probably of
greater computational complexity) was done but only
with massive global co-operation. It is also the case that
sensibly used encryption is pretty good these days. The
computing power to crack even low-grade-encrypted mails
on a massive scale does not exist and will not (possibly
cannot) for a long time. Most emails are not encrypted
but we are moving towards a world where they will be.
Even the US government won't be able to stop that.
Technology aside, my real point here is emotional. I
observe that human conditioning has a tendency to
focus on responses often called fear. This is not
a linear process - its self-reinforcing. We are afraid
of being mugged, afraid of accidents, persuaded to
wear bicycle helmets by people saying that cycling
is dangerous, to avoid dangerous things in food, and
generally to see dangers everywhere.
Journalists know this and expoit it. Product advertisement
people know this and exploit it. I find my life is
richer if I try to be aware of and notice this process and
the tendency my own mental conditioning has to respond
to it and how unintelligent this is. I also observe
how easy it is for all of us to go to small places in
ourselves where all we can see is such fear. I think
this is very sad because when we are in such places our
world is small and narrow instead of the wonderful place
it can be.
I poked fun at the idea not at you.
I have many ideas that need poking fun at. Humour is
a good tool. I observe that clinging to ideas in
such a way that comments on them are taken personally
leads to one missing human interactions of value.
I also observe that fear responses are not linked
to specific content. I try to see the content
as irrelevant and observe the process. We can admit
to having fear about A or about B or about C or
we can admit to just being fearful as A's B's and C's
come and go and each receives our attention for a time.
I project a person in a painful place and offer
good feeling in response. Xenos, I hope you emerge
from that place soon friend.
bogey
Xenos the elder
bogart wrote:
> Xenos,
>
>
< snip bleeding >
Nothing personal.
It's about privacy
About big power and the abuse of it.
A government controlling it's citizen and not citizens controlling they
government.
It's about a Europe being tiered of being used and abused by the US.
It's time The American army leaves Europe.
I can not free the people of the USA. I do hope that more of it's
citizens come to grips with the realties of today and that they they
government is not serving in the interests of it's citizens.
Get a reading on ACLU.
It is an American organization fighting on behalf of the rights of the
American people.
But sometimes it looks like that hardly anybody cares.
If we don't stop them we will have something even Adolph would not have
dreamed about it.
Joy
"Xenos the elder" <dimitr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:406581D6...@yahoo.com...
All I can say is, if Big Brother is watching me he has just got to be bored
out of his skull.
Joe St. Lucas
>network Echelon will reach the courts by autumn according to the lawyer
>leading the assault on America's National Security Agency (NSA). The
>plaintiffs, several French corporations and individuals who cannot be
>identified, allege that the NSA has spied on them illegally.
If they don't like it, they can send some rockets up to destroy the
satellites.
Xenos the elder
WW3?
Xenos the elder
Joy wrote:
> "Xenos the elder" <dimitr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:406581D6...@yahoo.com...
>
>>
>>bogart wrote:
>>
>>>Xenos,
>>>
-------------.
>
>
> All I can say is, if Big Brother is watching me he has just got to be bored
> out of his skull.
>
>
>
>
You can spice he's life up by using " trigger words ".
Sugar will be " heroine " and a new pair of shoes will be a new " pair
of bombs ".
Within 3 months you will be arrested. Unless ...................
You belong to a rich family from Saudi Arabia.
Having the name Bin Laden helps never to be caught.
Dadzilla
wrote:
>I don't doubt that there is some targetted eavesdropping on
>phone conversations. I also am aware that the computational
>complexity of scanning in any semantically useful way
>all email and phone conversations puts it beyond our
>capabilities. The human genome project (probably of
>greater computational complexity) was done but only
>with massive global co-operation. It is also the case that
>sensibly used encryption is pretty good these days. The
>computing power to crack even low-grade-encrypted mails
>on a massive scale does not exist and will not (possibly
>cannot) for a long time. Most emails are not encrypted
>but we are moving towards a world where they will be.
>Even the US government won't be able to stop that.
Agreed... and the fact that with so many forms of encriyption out
there I doubt that the govt has the manpower, much less machine power
to follow it except in the exceptional cases.
A real password, one 0f 1024 leanth and using mutiple forms of
encryption and or deception could take months to crack the data, with
alot of luck.
"to mold a new reality, closer to the heart" RUSH
Rambler
I am now (temporary career detour) headhunting. My *job* is to "spy" on
people - who's looking to move, who's lloking to expand, who's a great
candidate. And ... guess what Bill ... I charge about $140,000 *per person*
that I move!
We all spy. From Casey when he is real estating, to Denise when she is
lawyering, to Barb when she is corporate communicating.
How in the H do you think the French and the Germans got the deals in the
first place? You wnat to know what the Soviets and Chinese (I use Soviets
as I am referring to bygone eras) laughed about? THe fact that they could
freely walk into the US Patent office and find trade secrets! Go figure.
We now return you to our regularly scheduled programming.
Rambler
"Xenos the elder" <dimitr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:406475C0...@yahoo.com...
Xenos the elder
Rambler wrote:
> Give me a break.
>
> I am now (temporary career detour) headhunting. My *job* is to "spy" on
> people - who's looking to move, who's lloking to expand, who's a great
> candidate. And ... guess what Bill ... I charge about $140,000 *per person*
> that I move!
>
> We all spy. From Casey when he is real estating, to Denise when she is
> lawyering, to Barb when she is corporate communicating.
>
> How in the H do you think the French and the Germans got the deals in the
> first place? You wnat to know what the Soviets and Chinese (I use Soviets
> as I am referring to bygone eras) laughed about? THe fact that they could
> freely walk into the US Patent office and find trade secrets! Go figure.
>
> We now return you to our regularly scheduled programming.
>
> Rambler
> "Xenos the elder" <dimitr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:406475C0...@yahoo.com...
>
In other words: Its a bad world out there. Watch your step.
And yes if i would have done some snooping on my ex ....
Oh forget it.