An apology to my ex-husband and a thank you
Elisa
can't give it to him, because I just can't give him the satisfaction. I
made some mistakes, but he made some big ones too. And, he won't apologize
for anything. Well, actually we have barely spoken in a long time. Just
required short sentences is all we do any more.
We were married for 11 years; we have been divorced for 7.
1) I really am sorry about the honeymoon thing. You wanted to explore more
of the islands that we visited on our cruise and I was just too nervous
about getting too far away from the ship. That was really selfish of me; I
should have compromised more for you. What a jerk I was.
2) I'm sorry that I promised I would go back to work right after we had our
first child and then I whined and whined about going back to work. She was
just so precious and I hated to leave her with strangers. I'm sorry about
that big fight about it on Thanksgiving. Looking back, it was just an
adjustment for me. I made such a big deal out of it. And both kids are so
great now, so it never hurt them for me to work.
3) It was so hurtful when you always called me a bitch. I really am not
like that around anyone else, I don't know why I was like that with you.
But, I was sometimes. I did try to make you happy though.
4) I have been selfish with the kids at times. I admit it. And I have
tried to get them to take my side. That was wrong. I am sorry. They
should not be involved.
5) We definitely should have gotten a babysitter more often and gone out.
I just was so content to be home with the kids. But that was wrong. We
should have gone out alone together more. I should have made time for just
us.
6) I could have tried growing my hair long the way you wanted. I see your
new wife has grown her short cut out. Well, I actually did try, but I could
have tried harder I guess.
7) And I'm really sorry about the paint on the wall outside the bedroom. I
was just trying to help. I didn't realize that it still bothers you and I
can't believe that you haven't painted over it.
And for the thank you:
Thank you for everything. Everything great that I have is because of you.
The kids, my house, even my job. Each of those things I contributed to as
well, but I wouldn't have any of it if it weren't for you. And I can never
thank you enough for being a part of my life once.
Elisa
KenStahl
While I have no idea who you are, after reading this I have
to wonder if you are being realistic.
When one party in a marriage deliberately does things to
hurt the other person, then there is no apology in the world
that can ever correct what happened. Saying one is sorry
simply isn't good enough because it doesn't set anything
right at all. It may appease the spirit of the person
offering the apology, but the hurt that was caused cannot be
undone by words.
I was hurt deeply enough that I will never again attempt to
build a relation that could lead to marriage. It just isn't
worth the knowledge that I could be giving another person
the opportunity to hurt me.
--
Blogging at http://HexagonalPeg.blogspot.com
Bill in Co.
Poignant, very moving, and sad. (Well at least I felt sad after reading
this).
Mary_...@tvo.org
to lug around a suitcase full of rocks that a bad experience with one
person means you will keep everyone at arms length for the rest of
eternity. Seems sad, lonely, and self destructive. It also seems like a
really bitter closed off way to live - and a way that requires a lot of
negative beliefs and energy to endlessly fend off closeness, joy and
new possibilities.
There are lots of nasty, selfish, cruel people in the world, and many -
male AND female - go through life like human wrecking balls,hurting
their spouses, their children, their parents, their friends, their
employees - whatever. An encounter with one can be soul destroying -
but it shouldn't mean that you then spend the rest of your life
thinking every one is like that. Its just not true.
Its kinda like having a real psycho for an employer, getting thoroughly
screwed over and tossed out, and then deciding you'll never work again.
Hopefully, when you go through something bad, you learn something about
human nature, about your own response, and how to deal with it better
going forward.
Can't speak for you, but I know the times when I've been the most hurt,
a big part of my anger is at myself, since so often, in retrospect, I
can see that I contributed. Not always by being miserable myself
(although most of us have done things we blush about when we are
upset), but sometimes by being too big a doormat, enabling certain
behaviours, not putting limits on what I would tolerate - so things got
more and more hurtful and bewildering. I know he's a corn pone guy but
its like Dr. Phil likes to say - we teach people how to treat us. I
certainly put up with junk in the past that I would not now, and
honestly, I think I'm much healthier mentally for having figured out
that if you endlessly tolerate the crap, your partner figures out they
can keep doing it (I didn't say I was BRIGHT!!).
I'm not saying you don't end up with scars and I'm not saying life
isn't unfair and crummy sometimes. The turds of the world rarely get
what they deserve - and don't we all wish they did, instead of just
moving on to whack someone new. But I just don't think you can fold
yourself up and withdraw from possibilities without stunting yourself
and denying yourself some wonderful things.
Forgiveness is a terrific thing. If you can't forgive your ex, maybe
you can forgive yourself for having invested in someone who wasn't
worth your tears.
My 2 cents, anyway
Mary
Elisa
<Mary_...@tvo.org> wrote in message
news:1127655266.8...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Are you responding to me or Ken?
Elisa
KenStahl
It isn't as if I haven't found a new life post-divorce. I
keep busier then I would like at time. I'm involved in
community groups. I know women as arms-length friends. But
I'm just not going to have any romantic involvement again.
It just isn't worth it.
There are things in this life that cannot be forgiven. In
the long run if she had killed me, that would have been
forgivable. But the things she did were far worse then murder.
I don't have a perfect life. I don't think anyone does. But
I have a nice place to live. Essentially no debt other then
a mortgage. A paid off car that is less then two years old.
A very decent job. I have creature comforts that make my
life easier. I just do it all without a romantic
relationship and I'm quite content doing it that way. I
can't think of why I would ever want to change that and
there is certainly no woman who is worth the effort that I
can think of.
Mary_...@tvo.org
M
saulgoode
I felt enlightened after reading it, uplifted even!
Great post, Ms. E. It shows you've inspected the sunken hull of your
marriage vessel, seen some damage you caused (or could have prevented),
and maybe can apply that learning to a fresh adventure on the open
seas!
We should all think of 7 good things to apologize for. And a list of
thank-yous to the ex: that shows tremendous forgiveness. Give me today
to think about it and I'll post mine tonight.
What a wonderful post. Have I told you I love you lately?
- Saul
Rog'
> ... there is certainly no woman who is worth the effort
> that I can think of.
I can understand your thinking. "Once bitten, twice shy."
But the fact is that you simply chose poorly. Admittedly,
the odds are pretty good that you'll do so again. Selection
of mates is not one of our species strong suits. So it may
well be that you belong on the sidelines while the rest of us
play the game. =R=
Elisa
"saulgoode" <saulg...@cyber-rights.net> wrote in message
news:1127665373.3...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> I felt enlightened after reading it, uplifted even!
>
> Great post, Ms. E. It shows you've inspected the sunken hull of your
> marriage vessel, seen some damage you caused (or could have prevented),
> and maybe can apply that learning to a fresh adventure on the open
> seas!
>
> We should all think of 7 good things to apologize for. And a list of
> thank-yous to the ex: that shows tremendous forgiveness. Give me today
> to think about it and I'll post mine tonight.
>
> What a wonderful post. Have I told you I love you lately?
>
>
> - Saul
>
>
that I had to say "out loud."
I greatly appreciate your support. I look forward to reading your list
tonight.
Elisa (and I "got" the inside joke about the I love you statement - thanks
for the smile)
~*LiveLoveLaugh*~
"Barbara Didrichsen" <barb...@yahooremove.com> wrote in message
news:emudj1plm13d3cvq9...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 12:59:38 -0400, Nina <ninaN...@economika.net>
> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >You know, this is what I find really disturbing, the number of people
> >who seem to make the same wrong choices again and again. When I look
> >at the people I dated before I married, including my ex, they're all
> >(mostly) pretty similar. Systematic errors.
> >
> >I think that this time, at least, after 20+ years of living with a
> >systematic error, I would choose differently. I may still screw it
> >up, but hopefully not in exactly the same way.
>
> Exactly what I realized about myself, as I went into a disastrous
> rebound relationship following my marriage. I knew I needed to take a
> break from relationships and focus on myself for a change.
>
> Those couple of years were well worth it. I talk about it now as the
> time I learned to fall in love with myself, nurturing myself in ways
> I'd only been able to do for others before. The most important thing
> I learned during that time was that caring about myself made me MORE
> capable of loving than before -- and in healthier ways.
>
> Experiencing love from an emotionally healthy place is so much
> different than what I'd known before. Even though the relationships
> I've had haven't lasted, they've helped me become healthier -- not
> something I could say about my marriage (or any relationship before
> it).
Man oh man, Barb... I sure wish I was where you're at now.
I'd give anything....
--
·.·´¨ ¨)) -:¦:-
¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
Laurie
((¸¸.·´ ..·´
-:¦:- ((¸¸ ·.·
*~*LiveLoveLaugh, and hangin' in there!*~*
"How disappointment tracks the steps of hope..."
~Letitia Landon
>
> Barb
Barbara Didrichsen
<Nob...@myjunkaddy.com> wrote:
[snip]
>Man oh man, Barb... I sure wish I was where you're at now.
>
>I'd give anything....\
I will tell you the one thing everyone hates hearing -- including me,
at one point:
It takes time.
Barb
~*LiveLoveLaugh*~
I know, I know. Time takes time. Unfortunately, we're in limbo right now.
He's made an "offer package", but his attorney took this past week off. I
have *no clue* what he is offering me (other than a bedroom set, some
pictures, etc.). He wants to keep the house and he's trying to PUSH me into
an apartment, townhouse, etc. as soon as possible. He doesn't get it that
I'm not going anywhere unless my lawyer says so.
We get along just fine living under the same roof... even in the same bed
still. But, inside, I'm dying. (We sleep together... nothing more than
that).
KenStahl
> On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 12:44:31 -0400, "Rog'"
> <rcblin...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
>>"KenStahl" <kts...@yahoo.com> wrote...
>>
>>>... there is certainly no woman who is worth the effort
>>>that I can think of.
>>
>>I can understand your thinking. "Once bitten, twice shy."
>>But the fact is that you simply chose poorly. Admittedly,
>>the odds are pretty good that you'll do so again. Selection
>>of mates is not one of our species strong suits.
>
>
> You know, this is what I find really disturbing, the number of people
> who seem to make the same wrong choices again and again. When I look
> at the people I dated before I married, including my ex, they're all
> (mostly) pretty similar. Systematic errors.
>
> I think that this time, at least, after 20+ years of living with a
> systematic error, I would choose differently. I may still screw it
> up, but hopefully not in exactly the same way.
>
>
>
I'm not going to make the wrong choice again. I guarantee
that. Because I will never make any choice like that ever
again. I can do fine as a bachelor and there are plenty of
rental units available if I happen to need one. I have too
much money at this point to ever trust a woman again.
Bill in Co.
I'll sell it to ya! I have it in a bottle. The label on the bottle
says "Serenity".
~*LiveLoveLaugh*~
news:C4FZe.3717$oc....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
I'd pay a million dollars for it, Bill!! ;)
Elisa
"KenStahl" <kts...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:P9CdnbcPYag...@comcast.com...
I guess I'm just an old romantic. What's the old saying: what's a lot of
money without someone to share it with?
And I'm not criticizing. I've had the same thought. I've been divorced 7
years now and I also have no debt except my house, and that will be paid off
in about 10 years; I also have a 2 year old car that's just about paid for,
I've grown my 401(k), and I've saved a sizeable sum. And I have had the
same thought: geez I've come so far and my finances are quite in line. If
I let someone into my life, I could lose 1/2 of everything. But, honestly
Ken, if I found someone that could be my companion for the rest of my life,
I'd gladly share 1/2 and more.
I thought I was getting close with a post-divorce relationship that lasted 4
years, but it didn't work out. But, I did trust him 100% and he was a great
companion. He just couldn't do the kid thing with me. Now the kids are 15
and 16 and often are not home, and it's awfully lonely here trudging about
for the last couple of years, just me and my savings accounts and the
material possessions that seem to mean nothing to me anymore.
Elisa
Bill in Co.
Yeah. What really does mean anything anymore? I know where you're at.
:-(
Bill in Co.
I borrowed it from Barb, but it was too strong for me, so I gave it back to
her. You'll have to ask her.
Bill in Co.
> On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 19:37:46 GMT, "Barbara Didrichsen"
> <barb...@yahooremove.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 12:59:38 -0400, Nina <ninaN...@economika.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> You know, this is what I find really disturbing, the number of people
>>> who seem to make the same wrong choices again and again. When I look
>>> at the people I dated before I married, including my ex, they're all
>>> (mostly) pretty similar. Systematic errors.
>>>
>>> I think that this time, at least, after 20+ years of living with a
>>> systematic error, I would choose differently. I may still screw it
>>> up, but hopefully not in exactly the same way.
>>
>> Exactly what I realized about myself, as I went into a disastrous
>> rebound relationship following my marriage. I knew I needed to take a
>> break from relationships and focus on myself for a change.
>>
>> Those couple of years were well worth it. I talk about it now as the
>> time I learned to fall in love with myself, nurturing myself in ways
>> I'd only been able to do for others before. The most important thing
>> I learned during that time was that caring about myself made me MORE
>> capable of loving than before -- and in healthier ways.
>
> simple steps, and at the end, there you are. This is what I struggle
> with more than anything else. I was reading a meditation today on
> extending lovingkindness to difficult people in your life... but for
> me, the difficult person, the one who I have a hard time loving, is
> always me.
>
> I see the ways in which this has gotten better. I see the ways in
> which I love better when I am less needy, when I can give myself more
> of what I need rather than desperately trying to get it somewhere
> else. But sometimes it all just seems impossibly far away.
I see it! I see it! It's over there, on the dark side of the moon
(speaking for myself)
Elisa
they will treat you well, and you will experience happiness and good times.
Not that I have it all under control, cuz I definitely don't.
Elisa
Barbara Didrichsen
<surly_cur...@earthlink.net> wrote:
[snip]
>I borrowed it from Barb, but it was too strong for me, so I gave it back to
>her. You'll have to ask her.
Copout, Bill
Barb
Bill in Co.
People??? WHAT people????? I don't want any people! I'm thru with
people!! I'm headin off to the Cave. (some say I've already arrived)
Bill in Co.
Hey, some people CAN arrive, and some people can never arrive. You know
that, I know that, we all know that.
Rog'
> I have too much money at this point to ever trust a
> woman again.
You almost sound like Gollum and his precious ring.
Actually, I thought so, too. It was fun to date, but I was
determined to protect my little nest egg -- the proceeds
from the sale of the house and a retirement fund. I had
intended to insist on a pre-nup, but then I found (and later
married) a woman with her own horde -- some equity in a
house, an inheritance and an income nearly equal to mine.
She had racked up debts as a C/P (that we're working on),
but our assets are now so commingled that its impossible to
say what was who's... and its fine by me. What I've found
is this: Money is a poor substitute for joy and happiness.
I hope that you find some of the latter, someday. =R=
My Own Doppelganger
On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 19:51:21 -0400, "Rog'"
<rcblin...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> What I've found
>is this: Money is a poor substitute for joy and happiness.
>I hope that you find some of the latter, someday. =R=
>
____________________
You do what you do and you pay for your sins
and there's no such thing as what might have been...
that's a waste of time...drive you out of your mind...
Elisa
Bill wrote: Yeah. What really does mean anything anymore? I know
> at.
>>> :-(
>>>
>
> People??? WHAT people????? I don't want any people! I'm thru with
> people!! I'm headin off to the Cave. (some say I've already arrived)
>
Then your cave is what gives you meaning.
Elisa
longshot
you sound like the evil woman i am divorcing. too bad you realised what a
bitch you were after 7 years of being divorced. the only difference between
you & her.. you tried to make your man happy .. mine never gave a f***.
I can still hear her "if you don't like it leave your paycheck by the door
on the way out"
Robert Grumbine
~*LiveLoveLaugh*~ <Nob...@myjunkaddy.com> wrote:
>"Barbara Didrichsen" <barb...@yahooremove.com> wrote in message
>news:ug5ej1tlqdq1qqgmr...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:53:13 GMT, "~*LiveLoveLaugh*~"
>> <Nob...@myjunkaddy.com> wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> >Man oh man, Barb... I sure wish I was where you're at now.
>> >
>> >I'd give anything....\
>>
>> I will tell you the one thing everyone hates hearing -- including me,
>> at one point:
>>
>> It takes time.
>
>I know, I know. Time takes time. Unfortunately, we're in limbo right now.
Well, start taking parts of your life out of limbo. How you're
living under the same roof is a bit of an obstacle to that. But ...
Take parts in to your own hands, and remind yourself that this is
what you're doing. Go for a walk that _you_ want to take. This isn't
in limbo. Read a book that _you_ want to read. Another escape from
limbo. Repeat for many areas, reminding yourself all the while that
these things are not in limbo; there are parts of life in your hands.
It still takes time. But I used the above for a long and hostile
separation, and with persistent application it does help the time to
pass more constructively.
--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences
~*LiveLoveLaugh*~
news:11jekkt...@corp.supernews.com...
> In article <40FZe.4194$7b6....@twister.nyroc.rr.com>,
> ~*LiveLoveLaugh*~ <Nob...@myjunkaddy.com> wrote:
> >"Barbara Didrichsen" <barb...@yahooremove.com> wrote in message
> >news:ug5ej1tlqdq1qqgmr...@4ax.com...
> >> On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:53:13 GMT, "~*LiveLoveLaugh*~"
> >> <Nob...@myjunkaddy.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> [snip]
> >>
> >> >Man oh man, Barb... I sure wish I was where you're at now.
> >> >
> >> >I'd give anything....\
> >>
> >> I will tell you the one thing everyone hates hearing -- including me,
> >> at one point:
> >>
> >> It takes time.
> >
> >I know, I know. Time takes time. Unfortunately, we're in limbo right
now.
>
> Well, start taking parts of your life out of limbo. How you're
> living under the same roof is a bit of an obstacle to that. But ...
To say the least!! If we're getting along okay, I get very sad in my heart.
It's like nothing is wrong... `cept he doesn't love me anymore.
> Take parts in to your own hands, and remind yourself that this is
> what you're doing. Go for a walk that _you_ want to take. This isn't
> in limbo. Read a book that _you_ want to read. Another escape from
> limbo. Repeat for many areas, reminding yourself all the while that
> these things are not in limbo; there are parts of life in your hands.
I am a recovering alcoholic, so I'm active in meetings, phone calls, etc. I
also went to Barnes and Nobles and bought a GREAT book. It's upstairs, and
I'm too lazy to get it right now. It's called Coming Apart... and
something else... `can't recall the rest of it. I'm not really into
self-help books, but this one is like the author had me in mind when she
wrote the book. That helps, and I've also started a journel. Not an online
blog, just a good old fashioned hand written journal. I look forward to it
when I go to bed at night. I don't feel so lonely once I've written my
thoughts down.
>
> It still takes time. But I used the above for a long and hostile
> separation, and with persistent application it does help the time to
> pass more constructively.
I'm in and out all day on the week days when he's home. His office is in
our basement. Luckily, he's trying to travel more than usual right now
while this crap goes on, so I do have the house to myself A LOT during the
week. I tell ya tho', this is the hardest thing I've ever done. Sometimes
I think I can't take another second of it, and then all of a sudden it's a
new day. I don't preach at all, but I truly believe that God is carrying me
through this right now. I mean with this sh~t going on, the old me would be
drinking... but here I am... sober (by the grace of God). In fact, today
or tomorrow is day 60. Two whole months of no alcohol!!
Wow!
Take care, Robert.
--
·.·´¨ ¨)) -:¦:-
¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
Laurie
((¸¸.·´ ..·´
-:¦:- ((¸¸ ·.·
*~*LiveLoveLaugh, and hangin' in there!*~*
"How disappointment tracks the steps of hope..."
~Letitia Landon
>
Bill in Co.
> In article <40FZe.4194$7b6....@twister.nyroc.rr.com>,
> ~*LiveLoveLaugh*~ <Nob...@myjunkaddy.com> wrote:
>> "Barbara Didrichsen" <barb...@yahooremove.com> wrote in message
>> news:ug5ej1tlqdq1qqgmr...@4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:53:13 GMT, "~*LiveLoveLaugh*~"
>>> <Nob...@myjunkaddy.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>> Man oh man, Barb... I sure wish I was where you're at now.
>>>>
>>>> I'd give anything....\
>>>
>>> I will tell you the one thing everyone hates hearing -- including me,
>>> at one point:
>>>
>>> It takes time.
>>
>> I know, I know. Time takes time. Unfortunately, we're in limbo right
now.
>
> Well, start taking parts of your life out of limbo. How you're
> living under the same roof is a bit of an obstacle to that. But ...
A bit of an obstacle??? ROFL. A big obstacle. (I did that for about a
year, but it's really hard moving forward(?) if you're in that situation.
So hopefully that won't be for too long, as it just drags out the "process".
Bill in Co.
Well, not really...
KenStahl
When I pass, any money that is left over will go to a
scholarship fund that I set up about two years after I
graduated from college. I've been gradually putting money
into it, but with any luck at all there will be enough left
over to provide for several full scholarships to some lucky
students. They won't know who I am, of course, but hopefully
they'll be grateful for the assistance.
If I had died when I was married the ex would have suddenly
found herself to be quite wealthy. If she knew exactly how
much she probably would have tried to contribute to my
demise and the money would have been spent frivolously in
just a couple months. Luckily she never really did
comprehend just how much all of it was worth because of the
way it is structured. So my vengeance is that she doesn't
get a cent and that pleases my heart to no end.
Bill in Co.
> On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 18:04:26 -0400, Nina <ninaN...@economika.net>
> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> I wish that there was a recipe for loving yourself. A series of
>> simple steps, and at the end, there you are. This is what I struggle
>> with more than anything else. I was reading a meditation today on
>> extending lovingkindness to difficult people in your life... but for
>> me, the difficult person, the one who I have a hard time loving, is
>> always me.
>
>
> Try Cheri Huber. I think of her as "kitchen-logic Zen" -- but I've
> yet to find another Zen teacher who says it in ways I can hear it any
> better.
>
>> I see the ways in which this has gotten better. I see the ways in
>> which I love better when I am less needy, when I can give myself more
>> of what I need rather than desperately trying to get it somewhere
>> else. But sometimes it all just seems impossibly far away.
>
> And it's what drew me to Zen -- the idea that I could be myself, with
> all my flaws, and stll be worth loving. That I didn't have to change
> a thing to warrant my own self-love.
>
> What I hear in the above paragraph is a voice that belittles and
> discourages you no matter what you do. Do something - it's not
> enough. Do nothing -- you're a loser. It has a vested interest in
> your being exactly where you are -- that's what give it life.
>
> We all carry voices like this within us. While we may not reach the
> point where they are silenced, we CAN learn to recognize them when
> they pop up, and realize they *never* have our best interests at
> heart.
>
> Because the voices that have our best interests at heart don't talk to
> us like that. Like a good parent, they notice when we're doing our
> best and encourage us.
You hear those voices? I don't hear those voices.
Maybe I'm deaf.
Maybe you're imagining those voices?
> I think perhaps that there is no better definition of love than that:
> encouraging us to be our best. And I know from my own experience that
> when I've felt that the most profoundly, it's not been from being told
> what I do "wrong."
>
> Barb
Nearl J Icarus
>"KenStahl" <kts...@yahoo.com> wrote...
>> ... there is certainly no woman who is worth the effort
>> that I can think of.
>well be that you belong on the sidelines while the rest of us
>play the game. =R=
After that comment about are you responding to me or Ken, I was like, "Ken
who?" Thanks a lot for quoting that so I'd know Ken who. (-8 I agree with your
comment. At least it keeps him out of the gene pool. And it makes it a lot
easier for those evil wimmins since he won't be getting in line ahead of
anybody.
When I started chasing Linda, I went over to my son's house and drank a toast
to husbands and wives. If it weren't for them, then Linda and I wouldn't have
had a chance.
Nearl J Icarus
>with more than anything else. I was reading a meditation today on
>extending lovingkindness to difficult people in your life... but for
>me, the difficult person, the one who I have a hard time loving, is
>always me.
Looking back, I've always thought of myself as a damn fool. Looking ahead, I'm
a damn fool that won't quit and lay over and play dead. I don't have many
regret, but there are a lot of mistakes that I won't do again.
As Oscar Wilde said, we're all in the gutter. But some of us are looking at
the stars.
Bogart
> I wish that there was a recipe for loving yourself. A series of
> simple steps, and at the end, there you are. This is what I struggle
> extending lovingkindness to difficult people in your life... but for
> me, the difficult person, the one who I have a hard time loving, is
> always me.
me too and I try to adopt the same solution.
Setting aside that a little the question that arises to me more
and more is this:
Once we have figured out the point of origin in time and
events of the non-self-loving it leaves unanswered questions
about the cause, whether there is one (of course there isn't)
etc. For example I think for many people the origin
is in their childhood. It seems to me we learn this
self un-love when adults behave in ways that are unloving to us.
Or is that the case. Inevitably our parents will fail - the
perfect parent doesn't exist because that's the nature of
life. So the first time out parents fail us in our eyes
we learn (mistakenly) that we are not lovable. But judging
that an adult has been unloving is itself playing victim.
I have forgiven my mother for the years of self-hate that
in my perception from about 3 or 4 to 50 I perpetrated on
myself and still do. I learned it from her. But that is
my perception and I sometimes wonder if it was ever there
to learn or if it was in my nature. I know I blamed her
for many years as she blamed her mother. But maybe this
was just a focus that was an illusion. Why do some children
experience this and others don't. And if its a cycle that
reproduces itself why do my children show that they love
me (I know daughters go off to mum's but I also know
she loves and needs me though she doesn't always know it).
These things are mysteries to me and everyone else I guess and
I reckon life would be pretty boring if we knew all the answers.
ok Dr. Lith. tell me I'm being overbearing and know-it-all
airing my thoughts.
bogey
Unknown
>On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 12:59:38 -0400, Nina <ninaN...@economika.net>
>wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>You know, this is what I find really disturbing, the number of people
>>who seem to make the same wrong choices again and again. When I look
>>at the people I dated before I married, including my ex, they're all
>>(mostly) pretty similar. Systematic errors.
>>
>>I think that this time, at least, after 20+ years of living with a
>>systematic error, I would choose differently. I may still screw it
>>up, but hopefully not in exactly the same way.
>
>Exactly what I realized about myself, as I went into a disastrous
>rebound relationship following my marriage. I knew I needed to take a
>break from relationships and focus on myself for a change.
>
>Those couple of years were well worth it. I talk about it now as the
>time I learned to fall in love with myself, nurturing myself in ways
>I'd only been able to do for others before. The most important thing
>I learned during that time was that caring about myself made me MORE
>capable of loving than before -- and in healthier ways.
>
>Experiencing love from an emotionally healthy place is so much
>different than what I'd known before. Even though the relationships
>I've had haven't lasted, they've helped me become healthier -- not
>something I could say about my marriage (or any relationship before
>it).
>
>Barb
Barb...
Y'know, I really *do* feel that you are one of the most insightful,
mature, and genuinely good people who post here.
However, there are a couple of thiings about this post (and many of
your posts) that I find to be somewhat... I guess "disturbing" might
be as good a word as any.
Namely, I worry just a tad about your useage of such phrases as "I
learned to fall in love with myself" and "nurturing myself".... For
instance, I would suspect that your "disastrous rebound relationship"
following your marriage was probably no more than a misguided attempt
to "nurture" yourself... or at least to assuage your own pain. I *do*
know that my similar experience was indeed just that... and it was at
least as disaterous and at least as damaging to the people around me
as no doubt yours was.
Now don't get me wrong... I'm not saying that these things are bad in
and of themselves. It *is* important to have a healthy self-image and
In the correct context, taking care of one's own needs is both
necessary and healthy.. BUT... I personally believe that a much more
fundamental component of spiritual and emotional health is the
willingness to place the needs of *other* people above your own
personal self-interest.
I do of course freely admit that this perspective of mine comes from a
frankly religious perspective. I beieve that this a part of what God
calls us to. So be it.
Just my two rupees worth....
rj
Unknown
(snip)
>
>It isn't as if I haven't found a new life post-divorce. I
>keep busier then I would like at time. I'm involved in
>community groups. I know women as arms-length friends. But
>I'm just not going to have any romantic involvement again.
>It just isn't worth it.
>
>There are things in this life that cannot be forgiven. In
>the long run if she had killed me, that would have been
>forgivable. But the things she did were far worse then murder.
>
>I don't have a perfect life. I don't think anyone does. But
>I have a nice place to live. Essentially no debt other then
>a mortgage. A paid off car that is less then two years old.
>A very decent job. I have creature comforts that make my
>life easier. I just do it all without a romantic
>relationship and I'm quite content doing it that way. I
>can't think of why I would ever want to change that and
>there is certainly no woman who is worth the effort that I
>can think of.
There was a point in my life when my perspective was very much like
yours.
That particular wound has healed.
And now I am *much* happier.
I'm still healing. And, I hope, I'm still growing.
I hope and pray that you will, too.
rj
Unknown
<rcblin...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Back when I was contemplating (with a *lot* of fear and trembling)
getting married to The Love, I had the same financial worries and
doubts. And the inequity in material weath between the two of us was
*really* significant. She had no debt and a positive net worth... but
it was miniscule compared to mine.
There were two things that got me over this terror of mine.... First
of all was the knowlege that *both* of us were bringing to the
marriage exactly the same thing... *everything* that we had. This is,
after all, one of the the more important things that marriage is all
about.
And a second factor (and a comparitively minor one) was The Love's
obvious distress that she was bringing so little, financially, to our
marriage. There is no way that I can describe how deeply that concern
of hers touched me...
rj
Bogart
rj you are a good soul and you spread kindness.
as you will know there are times when I feel like this poster.
I think (I know you will all disagree) that age and circumstances
are relevant too. I mean there are some stages in life when
building a new life can be tackled. But maybe there are
some stages when age and circumstances conspire to make it
impractical. To the OP - I am MUCH happier now. That doesn't
change the fact that nearly 4 years down the line I am financially
insecure, without purpose, lonely for company, conscious that
if I get ill I will be coping with it alone and so on and I
don't have the space in life to calmly pursue the utopia
you present. And the older we get the chance we will rebuild
a life becomes less and the options get fewer.
My mother was well into her 70's when my dad died. Is she going to
meet a new partner and start again ? I think not.
For those of us that need some company it may not be as easy
as you say. In your forties yes fine but time is getting on.
Around me people of my age that I have known are starting to
die. This can only accelerate.
I'm still sorting myself out - and building a new life without
financial security at this age takes some guts (I'm about
to be made redundant and everything may fall apart). I need
a few years to sort myself out before I am ready for a
relationship but I don't have those years to achieve stable
life patterns and security. All the time I must take the
kind of risks that people take when younger but with age
the risk increases. I'm not an entrepeneur and I don't want
to be but may be forced to be. Where is the enjoying life
with a partner as the children grow up and have grandchildren
etc.?
Sorry mate, your comment may be correct and helpful to the
poster but it isn't always that easy. I'm glad it turned
out that way for you and hope it will for this poster but
this aint hollywood and the ingredients of successful
ways forwards aren't always hanging from low branches
of trees while orchestras play on mountain tops.
Real people often have pain and die and
all sorts of things happen to frustrate building a new
life.
bogey
Mary_...@tvo.org
than 30 years now. She's a real live wire, although not a beauty queen
- she's charming, she's active, she's interested in everything, she's
upbeat and enthusiastic and fun - and she's never lacked for male
companionship. She's been widowed once, and divorced once, and outlived
boyfriends - but she's never without dates for long.
Personally, I really think its because she's out there, involved in
life. She's open to new experiences, she's happy in her own skin, and
she moves forward to embrace life (i.e. doesn't dwell on the past and
let it poison her future). She's had her share of hurts and
disappointments, but she doesn't spend her time picking scabs off the
wounds (and she's had some really devastating financial and personal
happen to her over the last many years). She also likes men, and likes
being in a relationship. She ends up being a MAGNET to the opposite sex
- I mean, who wouldn't want to spend time with someone who is so
clearly squeezing whatever joy she can out of life?
M.
Bogart
but you do need to have those two.
bogey
NewMan
boy so that she could plant her fanny on the couch and watch Oprah
while filling her face with bon-bons.
I do not believe my ex cared about " the divorce" so much. What she
cared about was gaining long-term access to my wallet.
That is NOT bitter folks, that is a fact.
Longshot
"NewMan" <Cloaked...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:5e1gj1t5s5889n5b5...@4ax.com...
> Sounds like yours is related to my ex. My ex wanted a slave / whipping
> boy so that she could plant her fanny on the couch and watch Oprah
> while filling her face with bon-bons.
>
> I do not believe my ex cared about " the divorce" so much. What she
> cared about was gaining long-term access to my wallet.
>
> That is NOT bitter folks, that is a fact.
I know exactly what you are saying.. if there's a nickel somewhere that she
thinks she can get half of, she will spend whatever it takes to get it.
Unknown
>
>When I pass, any money that is left over will go to a
>scholarship fund that I set up about two years after I
>graduated from college. I've been gradually putting money
>into it, but with any luck at all there will be enough left
>over to provide for several full scholarships to some lucky
>students. They won't know who I am, of course, but hopefully
>they'll be grateful for the assistance.
I think this is an excellent idea.
Personally, The Love and I have our wills structured so that the bulk
of the boodle goes to charities that we both think are worthy. There
will be (relatively minor) gifts of both money and objects to my
children and her neices (she's got no kids of her own). One of the
reasons we're doing this is because I believe that money would
generally do my children more harm than good
rj
rj
wrote:
(snip)
>
>rj you are a good soul and you spread kindness.
(smile)
Thanks for the kind words, Boge...
>as you will know there are times when I feel like this poster.
>I think (I know you will all disagree) that age and circumstances
>are relevant too.
I do not at all disagree... at least I don't disagree as to the "facts
of the case". Age and circumstances are *always* relevant.
> I mean there are some stages in life when
>building a new life can be tackled. But maybe there are
>some stages when age and circumstances conspire to make it
>impractical. To the OP - I am MUCH happier now. That doesn't
>change the fact that nearly 4 years down the line I am financially
>insecure, without purpose, lonely for company, conscious that
>if I get ill I will be coping with it alone and so on and I
>don't have the space in life to calmly pursue the utopia
>you present. And the older we get the chance we will rebuild
>a life becomes less and the options get fewer.
sigh...
I feel the need to make a couple of comments. First of all, I am not
presenting a "utopia". I am well aware that Life is indeed Hard. And
I am aware that every decision we make, and every corner in life that
we turn, does indeed foreclose some set of possible futures. In a
sense, all of life is a series of decisions. And *every* decision
comes with a cost.
There are aspects of my own life that will *always* have sadness and
more than a bit of regret associated with them. For instance, I love
my wife dearly. But I find it a great sadness that we will *never*
have children together. And I love the children I have dearly as
well. But I will *never* escape the responsibility *I* have had in
creating the scars in *their* souls... scars that I see all to
clearly, but which they themselves often seem to be completely unaware
of.
But over and above all of the shite that I have endured *and* have
caused to others, I still have hope. This is, of course, not a
"rational" hope, but a hope and a sort of contentment that is rooted
in a view of life that is basically teleological. I make no secret of
this... I really do believe in something I call "God"... and I really
do believe that God works in *all* things, ultimately for good... and
that this work God's makes use of *everything... including and
especially the shit and even the downright evil with which we present
Him/Her/It to use.
If one can simply recognize this, then most of the crap we endure
becomes irrelevant. I know that you are worried about your own future
and financial security. But the truth is, there is *no* security in
money. Ten million bucks (<grin> or pounds, if you prefer) can be
lost as quickly, and with as little warning, as ten pence. And as for
life and health and death... in the end, God intends to kill us all.
And even that is Good.
>
>My mother was well into her 70's when my dad died. Is she going to
>meet a new partner and start again ? I think not.
LOL...
One never knows. My dad remarried at age 80 to a woman in her late
70s. They are still happy and still going srong.
I never said it was easy.
Rather, I maintain life is *good*.... even when it's bad.
rj
Bill in Co.
>> I wish that there was a recipe for loving yourself. A series of
>> simple steps, and at the end, there you are. This is what I struggle
>> with more than anything else. I was reading a meditation today on
>> extending lovingkindness to difficult people in your life... but for
>> me, the difficult person, the one who I have a hard time loving, is
>> always me.
>
> me too and I try to adopt the same solution.
>
>
<snip>
>
> Why do some children experience this and others don't.....
Because we are all different. Each of us is unique. We're not stamped
out, cookie cutter, cuts of flour.
saulgoode
pregnant with our second, watching our first at the neighbor's, playing
cards, and told me you were bleeding, but don't come home, no big deal.
I should have come home anyway. I'm sorry. That one poor choice cost me
your trust.
2) I'm sorry I didn't cry later that night when you woke up and
miscarried in the toilet. I felt someone had to be strong, and it was
me, but at the time you needed someone to be as upset as you were.
Instead of sharing your pain, I remained stoic, flushed our baby, and
held you while you cried alone, even though I was emotionally shredded.
That night was the end of our marriage.
3) I'm sorry for that Saturday. God knows I'm sorry. I can't say that
enough times. I'm sorry. That day was the end of your love for me.
4) For all the negativity, I'm sorry. I've gotten past it, but there
was a time when I was Mr. Negative, Mr. Critic, Mr. Cynic, and you
lived through the worst of it. I love you for that, but regret how much
I punished you for being there.
5) Your thirtieth birthday was a milestone for you, a monumental day,
for which you expected more than a typical date or party. Instead, I
treated the day like any other day in September. Even though I tried, I
could have tried harder, knowing how much it meant to you. I'm sorry.
6) I was never thoughtful of you, not like you needed. For that I'm
sorry. I should have tried harder.
7) I'm sorry for the way I reacted all those times you denied me. I
should have been more mature, more understanding, more patient. I
should have built trust in those times, rather than tearing you down.
I'm sorry.
I thank you for our son. Thank you for being a good mommy, and a
patient and understanding ex-wife, allowing me to have so much custody
of our son. We'll have our ups and our downs, and we'll hurt more as
time goes along and we separate further, but I hope we'll remain
non-vindictive friends.
- Saul
Elisa wrote:
> "saulgoode" <saulg...@cyber-rights.net> wrote in message
> news:1127665373.3...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > I felt enlightened after reading it, uplifted even!
> >
> > Great post, Ms. E. It shows you've inspected the sunken hull of your
> > marriage vessel, seen some damage you caused (or could have prevented),
> > and maybe can apply that learning to a fresh adventure on the open
> > seas!
> >
> > We should all think of 7 good things to apologize for. And a list of
> > thank-yous to the ex: that shows tremendous forgiveness. Give me today
> > to think about it and I'll post mine tonight.
> >
> > What a wonderful post. Have I told you I love you lately?
> >
> >
> > - Saul
> >
> >
> Thank you Saul. I was afraid of being judged, but it was just something
> that I had to say "out loud."
>
> I greatly appreciate your support. I look forward to reading your list
> tonight.
>
> Elisa (and I "got" the inside joke about the I love you statement - thanks
> for the smile)
Mary_...@tvo.org
M
Barbara Didrichsen
[snip]
>Y'know, I really *do* feel that you are one of the most insightful,
>mature, and genuinely good people who post here.
Thank you!
>However, there are a couple of thiings about this post (and many of
>your posts) that I find to be somewhat... I guess "disturbing" might
>be as good a word as any.
>Namely, I worry just a tad about your useage of such phrases as "I
>learned to fall in love with myself" and "nurturing myself".... For
>instance, I would suspect that your "disastrous rebound relationship"
>following your marriage was probably no more than a misguided attempt
>to "nurture" yourself... or at least to assuage your own pain. I *do*
>know that my similar experience was indeed just that... and it was at
>least as disaterous and at least as damaging to the people around me
>as no doubt yours was.
When I say disastrous relationship, that's exactly what I meant. It
was not a misguided attempt at nurturing myself -- it was the
continuation of a pattern of seeking out an abusive man. In different
ways than my ex, but abusive nonetheless.
You might find the way I phrased this nurturing time in my life
disturbing, but for someone who spent most of her life taking care of
others (often in emotionally unhealthy ways) - and never learning to
truly care for herself -- learning to love me was something that was
very important for my growth -- emotional AND spiritual.
>Now don't get me wrong... I'm not saying that these things are bad in
>and of themselves. It *is* important to have a healthy self-image and
>In the correct context, taking care of one's own needs is both
>necessary and healthy.. BUT... I personally believe that a much more
>fundamental component of spiritual and emotional health is the
>willingness to place the needs of *other* people above your own
>personal self-interest.
You're talking about emotionally healthy people. That wasn't me. The
fact that you don't understand what I meant tells me you've never been
in that place.
Be very grateful -- it's not easy getting out of it. I remain
grateful that I was finally able to see that I needed to make a
dramatic change in the way I viewed myself and my world, and took the
time to do it.
Barb
Bill in Co.
You know, I'm trying to think if I've met any of those critters. Not
sure... I think most are screwed up in some way.
shinypenny
KenStahl wrote:
> While I have no idea who you are, after reading this I have
> to wonder if you are being realistic.
>
> When one party in a marriage deliberately does things to
> hurt the other person, then there is no apology in the world
> that can ever correct what happened. Saying one is sorry
> simply isn't good enough because it doesn't set anything
> right at all. It may appease the spirit of the person
> offering the apology, but the hurt that was caused cannot be
> undone by words.
>
> I was hurt deeply enough that I will never again attempt to
> build a relation that could lead to marriage. It just isn't
> worth the knowledge that I could be giving another person
> the opportunity to hurt me.
Ken, How long has it been for you?
My ex said the exact same thing about me when I left him. Surprise, he
moved on quicker than I did. He fell in love again, got remarried, now
has a kid, and is by all accounts much happier. Not only that, but he's
nice to me, go figure.
Time can and does heal, if you let it.
Meanwhile, I couldn't move on myself until he did. So in the end, it
took me longer. I'm in love, engaged, but still dragging my feet about
taking the last final step (though my feet are getting steadily
lighter!)
While time heals, everyone has their own pace. Maybe yours is just
slower, and that's okay too. Take all the time you need.
Ultimately for me I couldn't live my life with one foot on the floor,
placing all my trust in others not to hurt me. That's no way to live.
Instead, I trust *me* to protect myself. That trust in myself has
enabled me to relax and take both feet off the floor and enjoy my
relationship.
And you're right, apologies don't undo the hurt. But look at it this
way... without the lows of sadness, we'd not experience the highs of
happiness. Without pain and despair, joy would not quite be the same.
Life is not meant to be colorless and blunted. That you hurt so deeply,
means you are capable of deep joy too.
jen
Elisa
Your list was so wonderful...and so sad. I have tears in my eyes as I read
it.
Isn't it amazing how we have so much love for another person, and it just
gets all messed up? I'm sorry for the pain that you have gone through. I
know that you had the grandest of intentions when you got married. We all
did.
Thank you for sharing these thoughts with me/us. I hope that it lifted some
of the burdens that you have carried, just to write them down. It's
wonderful to hear the other side (male perspective).
I don't know your whole story, but I hope that you find peace.
Thank you Saul.
Elisa
~*LiveLoveLaugh*~
news:1127779259.4...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dearest jen,
These are such wonderful words. Thank you for sharing. I think I'm gonna
log off and go to bed with your post in my mind. Peace...
--
·.·´¨ ¨)) -:¦:-
¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
Laurie
((¸¸.·´ ..·´
-:¦:- ((¸¸ ·.·
*~*LiveLoveLaugh, and hangin' in there!*~*
"How disappointment tracks the steps of hope..."
~Letitia Landon
> jen
>
Nearl J Icarus
>
>necessary and healthy.. BUT... I personally believe that a much more
>fundamental component of spiritual and emotional health is the
>willingness to place the needs of *other* people above your own
>personal self-interest.
There needs to be some sort of checks and balances. My fiancee once told me
that her kids come first. I didn't really care for the way she worded it. I
would no more want to get inbetween her and her children than I would want her
to get inbetween me and mine.
And she did put the needs of her youngest daughter above her own needs. If you
want to see how quick a parasite can kill, you should see this kid in action.
"Kid," well to me. She was around 19 at the time. I'd tell Linda that you need
to take care of yourself first before you can take care of anybody else. At
that age, they had better be taking care of themselves. Unless their needs
become critical, they are flying on their own.
In some circles, what you describe is slave morality. You're not healthy
unless you put the needs of others first? Whether I would or not depends on
the circumstances, not how healthy I am.
>I do of course freely admit that this perspective of mine comes from a
>frankly religious perspective. I beieve that this a part of what God
>calls us to. So be it.
One of the things I liked about Nietzsche's philosophy is that "God said so"
is not an answer. Dig a little deeper.
It all depends on what you'd call a need. When my daughter was having a baby,
she needed her parents. Lets say I needed a bheer. Yeah, her needs would
override mine.
Nearl J Icarus
>myself and still do. I learned it from her. But that is
>my perception and I sometimes wonder if it was ever there
>to learn or if it was in my nature. I know I blamed her
>for many years as she blamed her mother. But maybe this
>was just a focus that was an illusion. Why do some children
>experience this and others don't. And if its a cycle that
>reproduces itself why do my children show that they love
A lot of it has to do with their reaction. Look a little deeper and see what
their reaction is to the blame game. They can use it for their own excuse or
see through it and reject it.
When I was first dating my ex and shortly after we were married, her mother
was the source of all her problems. Then halfway through our marriage, I was
the source of all her problems. I wonder who gets the blame now.
I can see where people have a strong influence on another person. What you
decide to do with that is your own responsibility.
Longshot
I guess i am the only one thinking things like:
1) I am sorry I put up with your shitty selfish lazy attitude for the past
17 years
2) I am sorry i got so upset when you denied my intemacy day after day, even
on anniverseries, birthdays, & valentines day.
3) I am sorry I didn't cook your dinner the way you like it, after i worked
a 12 hour day, while you were driving around town in your SUV, making play
dates on your cell phone.
4) I am sorry for being upset when you would embarrass me in front of my
coworkers & freinds.
5) I am sorry I ever tried to get you to exercise & take care of yourself
how's that for starters?
rj
<barb...@yahooremove.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:30:23 +0530, rj <> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>Y'know, I really *do* feel that you are one of the most insightful,
>>mature, and genuinely good people who post here.
>
>Thank you!
You're welcome. <grin> I meant it sincerely.
>
>>However, there are a couple of thiings about this post (and many of
>>your posts) that I find to be somewhat... I guess "disturbing" might
>>be as good a word as any.
>
>>Namely, I worry just a tad about your useage of such phrases as "I
>>learned to fall in love with myself" and "nurturing myself".... For
>>instance, I would suspect that your "disastrous rebound relationship"
>>following your marriage was probably no more than a misguided attempt
>>to "nurture" yourself... or at least to assuage your own pain. I *do*
>>know that my similar experience was indeed just that... and it was at
>>least as disaterous and at least as damaging to the people around me
>>as no doubt yours was.
>
>When I say disastrous relationship, that's exactly what I meant. It
>was not a misguided attempt at nurturing myself -- it was the
>continuation of a pattern of seeking out an abusive man. In different
>ways than my ex, but abusive nonetheless.
No doubt it *was* disasterous... though the reasons for the
disatrousness of it may have been different than the reasons for the
disasterousness of my own experience. <grin> This would of course
not be the first time that I've read too much of my own experiences
into the motives of other people.
>
>You might find the way I phrased this nurturing time in my life
>disturbing, but for someone who spent most of her life taking care of
>others (often in emotionally unhealthy ways) - and never learning to
>truly care for herself -- learning to love me was something that was
>very important for my growth -- emotional AND spiritual.
No doubt also true.
My point though (if I've really got one, rather than simply some more
after-the-fact quasi-rationality) is that one of the very real
problems of our society, and one of the legacies of the Enlightenment,
is that as a culture we place an unhealthy and generally *very*
damaging primacy on the importance of the individual.
IMO (and it's neither "humble" nor weakly held), our tendency to focus
on *self* is fundamentally wrong. And this "wrongness" manifests
itself almost continuously in what we say and do and in our unspoken
and unacknowleged and unrecognized assumption that the Self is King...
This underlying attitude constitutes much of the cause of the
unhappiness in our society. It's fruits include such things as an
attitude toward marriage as being fundamentally about *me* and *my*
happiness... with divorce rates that reflect this underlying
assumption.
I believe that we *never* have within ourselves *all* of the resources
to make ourselves "happy". In the final analysis, I believe that a
focus on one's own emotional well-being can *only* be healthy (and can
only lead to personal contentment) when this focus on one's own
well-being is seen and used as merely a tool towards a larger goal...
And an important part of that goal is to learn to love *others*... to
love them even when to do so is personally painful.
rj
shinypenny
rj wrote:
> My point though (if I've really got one, rather than simply some more
> after-the-fact quasi-rationality) is that one of the very real
> problems of our society, and one of the legacies of the Enlightenment,
> is that as a culture we place an unhealthy and generally *very*
> damaging primacy on the importance of the individual.
That may be true, but one could also make the case that it is a
societal backlash against the Christian mindset that one should be
selfless and give no thought to the individual. That mindset has proved
just as damaging, IMO, and unfortunately sent people running off
looking for God in the wrong direction.
> IMO (and it's neither "humble" nor weakly held), our tendency to focus
> on *self* is fundamentally wrong. And this "wrongness" manifests
> itself almost continuously in what we say and do and in our unspoken
> and unacknowleged and unrecognized assumption that the Self is King...
> This underlying attitude constitutes much of the cause of the
> unhappiness in our society. It's fruits include such things as an
> attitude toward marriage as being fundamentally about *me* and *my*
> happiness... with divorce rates that reflect this underlying
> assumption.
And I see it differently. I see that a long heritage of relying on
others to treat us kindly, and encouraging people to be totally
selfless and place all of the responsibility for their happiness on
others (god, spouse, neighbor, gov't), has created a society of people
who end up helpless in relationships in which they are compelled to
control and manipulate their partner when their partner does not act in
a loving way that meets their own needs.
We can deny we have needs all we want, but we have them.
What we see over and over in this group is the same sad story: "If he
loved me, he would not have treated me this way. So I loved him harder.
And when my love wasn't reciprocated, I tried to change him first in
covert ways and then in overt ways."
That's what happens when we take no responsibility and rely on others
instead: we feel compelled to control and manipulate their behavior,
because it's the only thing we believe we have any control over.
And those who run off to new partners, in a never-ending search for
happiness, aren't doing it for as selfish reasons as you think: they
are viewing that new partner as the one who will give them the
happiness they refuse to find within themselves.
> I believe that we *never* have within ourselves *all* of the resources
> to make ourselves "happy".
And I disagree, but then again, my version of faith and God is probably
different than yours. I believe God is within each and everyone of us.
Which means that we do all have the ingredients of being God-like and
full of His grace within us. It's only up to us to let it shine out.
God is not something outside of ourselves that we have to search for to
find. It's right there... inside us. He created all of us with the
necessary resources built in. Knowing yourself, is to know God. Loving
yourself, is to love God. Loving yourself, is to let the light shine
out and spread to others. But ultimately only we can tap the power of
God within ourselves, and not within others. We can help shine a light
to it, that's all. The rest is up to the individual.
> In the final analysis, I believe that a
> focus on one's own emotional well-being can *only* be healthy (and can
> only lead to personal contentment) when this focus on one's own
> well-being is seen and used as merely a tool towards a larger goal...
> And an important part of that goal is to learn to love *others*... to
> love them even when to do so is personally painful.
Yes, but you can still love someone while protecting yourself and
loving and honoring yourself as one of God's creatures, too. Nobody
said you have to stay and take the abuse. You can pray for them from
afar.
That's what God basically does, afterall. God continues to patiently
love the sinner, but removes His grace until the sinner is ready to
reconcile.
Which is exactly what I think Barb has done with her ex. Over the
years, she has worked very hard on tapping more and more into the God
resources that were always in her. She just calls it Bhuddism, but to
me it's the same... she meditates and she gets better and better at
hearing the voice of God within her.
As a result, she has loved her ex from afar, cared about him, and
treated him with patience and mercy, while protecting herself (and by
"protect" here, I mean, from a position of strength and love, not one
of vulnerability and fear). She has strived, from my view, to love him
in the way God loves him, and I find that admirable.
Ultimately I think that it's not a matter of "selfish" vs "selfless."
Those words are just too opposite and extreme, making the conversation
dissolve into an either/or scenario. And, that whole line of thought
falls apart when you view God as being in each and everyone of us.
Following that principle, if you are selfless, that would mean you're
Godless! :-)
jen
(okay, this was probably one of my long rambling posts few people will
read. Sorry!)
Bill in Co.
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 18:51:05 +0530, rj <rjk...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> IMO (and it's neither "humble" nor weakly held), our tendency to focus
>> on *self* is fundamentally wrong. And this "wrongness" manifests
>> itself almost continuously in what we say and do and in our unspoken
>> and unacknowleged and unrecognized assumption that the Self is King...
>> This underlying attitude constitutes much of the cause of the
>> unhappiness in our society. It's fruits include such things as an
>> attitude toward marriage as being fundamentally about *me* and *my*
>> happiness... with divorce rates that reflect this underlying
>> assumption.
>
>
>> I believe that we *never* have within ourselves *all* of the resources
>> to make ourselves "happy". In the final analysis, I believe that a
>> focus on one's own emotional well-being can *only* be healthy (and can
>> only lead to personal contentment) when this focus on one's own
>> well-being is seen and used as merely a tool towards a larger goal...
>> And an important part of that goal is to learn to love *others*... to
>> love them even when to do so is personally painful.
>
> intrinsically painful, in a lot of ways. But there are better ways of
> doing it than others. What Barb is talking about, I think, is not so
> much a focus on me, me, me as it is considering yourself to be one of
> the people you love.
Exactly.
> When you love others and take care of others in
> a way that is damaging to you, then no one is better off for it....
> not you, and not the people who have to bear the burden of that love.
(Come on, rj, it's really not THAT difficult to grasp what she was getting
at! Maybe you better head up the Mountain, and join me there?)
Bill in Co.
> On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 19:47:39 -0400, Nina <ninaN...@economika.net>
> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> Any particular recommendations? I see that she has about a billion
>> books and tapes and things.
>
> My most well-thumbed copies are of: There is nothing wrong with you
> (she also does workshops on this topic); The Key (and the name of the
> key is willingness); and That which you are seeking is causing you to
> seek. I had her latest book but lent it to my ex and never got it
> back -- love the title: When you're falling, dive.
>
> She also has a radio webcast at 8PM Eastern time; you can go to her
> website to find out more details.
>
> Barb
Well, I dunno. I still haven't heard those voices yet...
Elisa
"Longshot" <Long...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:Ssa_e.166390$084.9349@attbi_s22...
>
> I guess i am the only one thinking things like:
>
> 1) I am sorry I put up with your shitty selfish lazy attitude for the past
> 17 years
What was she like when you first met her and fell in love? Was she shitty
and selfish and lazy? What made her this way (just asking, no hidden agenda
here)?
> 2) I am sorry i got so upset when you denied my intemacy day after day,
> even
> on anniverseries, birthdays, & valentines day.
I never once denied my husband. Never. I know how I would feel if I was
denied. And I always preferred pleasing him as opposed to being pleased.
Not all women are like that Longshot.
> 3) I am sorry I didn't cook your dinner the way you like it, after i
> worked
> a 12 hour day, while you were driving around town in your SUV, making play
> dates on your cell phone.
Why did you cook dinner if she didn't work (just asking!)?
> 4) I am sorry for being upset when you would embarrass me in front of my
> coworkers & freinds.
Was alcohol involved?
> 5) I am sorry I ever tried to get you to exercise & take care of yourself
That's a tough one. When a woman gains weight, believe me she knows it, and
to hear comments from her husband (no matter how well-intentioned they are)
is hurtful and brings the ole' self-esteem way down. Did you offer to take
walks with her, and did you cook low-fat food for her?
>
>
You are definitely not the only one feeling this way. You are hurting,
that's for sure. I hope you can get past all this soon. All my best to
you.
Elisa
>
Longshot
When we met, she worked fulltime & went to college fulltime. she worked part
time most of our years together, maybe 20 hrs a week
> I never once denied my husband. Never. I know how I would feel if I was
> denied. And I always preferred pleasing him as opposed to being pleased.
>Not all women are like that Longshot.
I guess I just got lucky. she just had no interest & at the same time had an
attitude like "why should I? I am not interested."
>Why did you cook dinner if she didn't work (just asking!)?
she had no desire to learn & her cooking sucked.
>
> > 4) I am sorry for being upset when you would embarrass me in front of my
> > coworkers & freinds.
>
> Was alcohol involved?
sometimes, but not req'd.
> > 5) I am sorry I ever tried to get you to exercise & take care of
yourself
>
> That's a tough one. When a woman gains weight, believe me she knows it,
and
> to hear comments from her husband (no matter how well-intentioned they
are)
> is hurtful and brings the ole' self-esteem way down. Did you offer to
take
> walks with her, and did you cook low-fat food for her?
trust me i had tried everything, she's not in the least bit competeive, so
sports are out, i would suggest walks & hiking & occasionally it would
work, but maybe once every couple weeks.she is just plain lazy. she isnt/
wasnt ever huge, maybe 40 lbs to lose at most, & she would bitch & complain
about the weight but never do anything about it. mostly blame it on
childbirth (11 years ago).
> >
> You are definitely not the only one feeling this way. You are hurting,
> that's for sure. I hope you can get past all this soon. All my best to
> you.
>Elisa
thanks for the kind words, I really just wish i would have done the D a very
long time ago.
Barbara Didrichsen
<surly_cur...@earthlink.net> wrote:
[snip]
>Well, I dunno. I still haven't heard those voices yet...
Keep listening, Bill ;-))
Barb
Bill in Co.
Ummm, why don't ya just send us the tape? :-)
Elisa
But I hope you find it.
Elisa
Bogart
>>> I never once denied my husband. Never. I know how I would feel
>>> if I was denied. And I always preferred pleasing him as opposed
>>> to being pleased. Not all women are like that Longshot.
>>
>> I guess I just got lucky. she just had no interest & at the same
>> time had an attitude like "why should I? I am not interested."
Some women use sex as power. Being with such women is a poor
experience. Love is better than power.
If you see a woman that uses sex this way walk away and
find a healthier one.
bogey
Bogart
I agree with Barb on this.
Keep listening.
bogey
Bogart
> A lot of it has to do with their reaction. Look a little deeper and see what
> their reaction is to the blame game. They can use it for their own excuse or
> see through it and reject it.
>
> When I was first dating my ex and shortly after we were married, her mother
> was the source of all her problems. Then halfway through our marriage, I was
> the source of all her problems. I wonder who gets the blame now.
Yes. Look a little under that response from your ex. Clearly
at some point she learned to blame and feel sorry for herself.
A common wisdom is that this feeling a victim and blaming
starts when as a child an adult doesn't show love to a child
at some point. Its a response to pain - to blame others.
A sort of "you caused my pain and shouldn't have". I think its
Its a limited form of thinking, not intelligent (but we all do it).
So we point and say some person has been damaged by a parent.
I blamed my mother for many years for being un-loving (she
*was* unloving, she was depressed). But what I'm asking now
is whether in fact we are born this way - whether some children
are far more likely to adopt this kind of pattern than others
irrespective of what adults do. All children will be lacking
for love at some point because adults are human. I'm thinking
that some children are far better at learning these unhealthy
patterns than others. Having a quick mind may be a factor
that leads to this.
Its only an idea, I'm not saying its true.
bogey
Bill in Co.
I'm listening. All I hear is Simon and Garfunkel's rendition, at this
point.
Crato drFrog
news:tMIZe.9338$Xl2...@twister.nyroc.rr.com:
> To say the least!! If we're getting along okay, I get very sad in my
> heart. It's like nothing is wrong... `cept he doesn't love me
> anymore.
I did that with my soon to be ex wife for about nine years. We get along
fine and can even enjoy each others company when we are together. Which
is a lot since are active in the PTA, my daughters atheletics, etc.
Still hurts though, I imagine it's not too pleasant for him either. I
know that neither my wife or myself are too happy with the way things
have turned out. But the simple fact is that she doesn't love me anymore
and there's no turning back now.
Good luck, I'm not sure if living apart has turned out to be better or
worse yet, but at least now I can leave the lid up when ever I want to
<ducking and grinning>.
>
> I am a recovering alcoholic, so I'm active in meetings, phone calls,
> etc. I also went to Barnes and Nobles and bought a GREAT book. It's
Well, Bill had a lot of good ideas :)
> all of a sudden it's a new day. I don't preach at all, but I truly
> believe that God is carrying me through this right now. I mean with
> this sh~t going on, the old me would be drinking... but here I am...
> sober (by the grace of God). In fact, today or tomorrow is day 60.
> Two whole months of no alcohol!!
Congratulations! Keep working it!
JP
~*LiveLoveLaugh*~
news:Xns96DF887444...@129.250.170.82...
> "~*LiveLoveLaugh*~" <Nob...@myjunkaddy.com> wrote in
> news:tMIZe.9338$Xl2...@twister.nyroc.rr.com:
> > To say the least!! If we're getting along okay, I get very sad in my
> > heart. It's like nothing is wrong... `cept he doesn't love me
> > anymore.
>
> I did that with my soon to be ex wife for about nine years. We get along
> fine and can even enjoy each others company when we are together. Which
> is a lot since are active in the PTA, my daughters atheletics, etc.
It's such a mind game tho'. We can be talking and laughing and then my eyes
swell up w/tears. ;'(
> Still hurts though, I imagine it's not too pleasant for him either. I
> know that neither my wife or myself are too happy with the way things
> have turned out. But the simple fact is that she doesn't love me anymore
> and there's no turning back now.
No turning back here, either. By the end of this week, I should hear from
my atty. regarding the package that STBX is offering me. We shall see what
happens next... <nervous>
> Good luck, I'm not sure if living apart has turned out to be better or
> worse yet, but at least now I can leave the lid up when ever I want to
> <ducking and grinning>.
Well, if I come over for coffee, I'll complain!!! ;)
> >
> > I am a recovering alcoholic, so I'm active in meetings, phone calls,
> > etc. I also went to Barnes and Nobles and bought a GREAT book. It's
>
> Well, Bill had a lot of good ideas :)
Yes he did!! But did you know that he was also a womanizer? Not that it
matters... I mean, he is dead now. I just don't think AA meetings should
be a pick up place. God, that's the last thing I need right now!!
>
> > all of a sudden it's a new day. I don't preach at all, but I truly
> > believe that God is carrying me through this right now. I mean with
> > this sh~t going on, the old me would be drinking... but here I am...
> > sober (by the grace of God). In fact, today or tomorrow is day 60.
> > Two whole months of no alcohol!!
>
> Congratulations! Keep working it!
`Just got home from a meeting. It's a beautiful day out here in upstate NY.
`Gonna take the Basset Hound for a looong walk and thank God that STBX is
outta town until Friday night!!
Take care, JP...
--
·.·´¨ ¨)) -:¦:-
¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
Laurie
((¸¸.·´ ..·´
-:¦:- ((¸¸ ·.·
*~*LiveLoveLaugh, and hangin' in there!*~*
"How disappointment tracks the steps of hope..."
~Letitia Landon
>
> JP
albert s
> news:tMIZe.9338$Xl2...@twister.nyroc.rr.com:
> > To say the least!! If we're getting along okay, I get very sad in my
> > heart. It's like nothing is wrong... `cept he doesn't love me
> > anymore.
>
> I did that with my soon to be ex wife for about nine years. We get along
> fine and can even enjoy each others company when we are together. Which
> is a lot since are active in the PTA, my daughters atheletics, etc.
>
> Still hurts though, I imagine it's not too pleasant for him either. I
> know that neither my wife or myself are too happy with the way things
> have turned out. But the simple fact is that she doesn't love me anymore
> and there's no turning back now.
>
> Good luck, I'm not sure if living apart has turned out to be better or
> worse yet, but at least now I can leave the lid up when ever I want to
> <ducking and grinning>.
>
leaving the spouse in a home you shared. I think for peace of mind you
should fight tooth and nail to sell the home and split the money.
I drove by my old house last Christmas and saw all the decorations up and
cars I recognised as belonging to old mutual friends in the driveway.
When I returned to my apartment, even surrounded by my family I wanted to
die.
Crato drFrog
news:%UA_e.15864$Xl2....@twister.nyroc.rr.com:
> It's such a mind game tho'. We can be talking and laughing and then
> my eyes swell up w/tears. ;'(
Yep, I do know that feeling all too well. I'm going over this afternoon
to meet my daughter and wife(for now) at my daughter's gymnastics
practice, have dinner with them and then take the young one to children's
choir practice. Probably I'll spend the night in the guest room and
obsess over all of the packed boxes that are stacking up in the garage
<insert really grumpy grin here> (In my case, she wants to move and I
keep the house).
>
> No turning back here, either. By the end of this week, I should hear
> from my atty. regarding the package that STBX is offering me. We
> shall see what happens next... <nervous>
>
At least we have that worked out already. I may never be able to retire
now, but at least it'll be a clean start (Did I mention that she ran up
$20,000 dollars in credit card debt alone. Wonderful surprise. Note to
self.., always pay the bills yorself). Good luck. Try to keep things in
perspective. I have to keep reminding myself of my part in the marriage
falling apart. But I'm always good at inventorying others faults for them
:)
>> or worse yet, but at least now I can leave the lid up when ever I
>> want to <ducking and grinning>.
>
> Well, if I come over for coffee, I'll complain!!! ;)
And I'll put the lid down just to be polite :)
> Yes he did!! But did you know that he was also a womanizer? Not that
> it matters... I mean, he is dead now. I just don't think AA meetings
> should be a pick up place. God, that's the last thing I need right
> now!!
LOL, I won't bother to tell you where I met my (almost ex)wife then...
You know where your priorties should be.
> `Just got home from a meeting. It's a beautiful day out here in
> upstate NY. `Gonna take the Basset Hound for a looong walk and thank
> God that STBX is outta town until Friday night!!
>
> Take care, JP...
I will, it'll be a fun night with the (not so) little one, the wife and I
will pay off some more bills and talk about what's been going on over the
past couple of days (The Sad Saga Of Three Nine Year Old Little Girl Best
Friends/Enemies)...
I guess it could be worse, I could be a kid again :)
Enjoy the walk and the quiet time.
JP
~*LiveLoveLaugh*~
> "~*LiveLoveLaugh*~" <Nob...@myjunkaddy.com> wrote in
> news:%UA_e.15864$Xl2....@twister.nyroc.rr.com:
>
> > It's such a mind game tho'. We can be talking and laughing and then
> > my eyes swell up w/tears. ;'(
>
> Yep, I do know that feeling all too well. I'm going over this afternoon
> to meet my daughter and wife(for now) at my daughter's gymnastics
> practice, have dinner with them and then take the young one to children's
> choir practice. Probably I'll spend the night in the guest room and
> obsess over all of the packed boxes that are stacking up in the garage
> <insert really grumpy grin here> (In my case, she wants to move and I
> keep the house).
I'm hoping that the time it takes to get all this straightened out will give
me less of a heart ache when all is said and done. I mean, for you, is it
any easier now?
> > No turning back here, either. By the end of this week, I should hear
> > from my atty. regarding the package that STBX is offering me. We
> > shall see what happens next... <nervous>
> >
>
> At least we have that worked out already. I may never be able to retire
> now, but at least it'll be a clean start (Did I mention that she ran up
> $20,000 dollars in credit card debt alone. Wonderful surprise. Note to
> self.., always pay the bills yorself). Good luck. Try to keep things in
> perspective. I have to keep reminding myself of my part in the marriage
> falling apart. But I'm always good at inventorying others faults for them
> :)
I am responsible for 50% of our troubles. This means financial, physical,
emotional, etc. The difference is, I'm 100% willing to work things out. I
haven't been working for medical reasons, but I am able to go back to work
now. We *both* ran a lot of plastic up. Only he sees it as groceries and
booze on his end. My charges that he blames me for is for nails, pedicures
and hair cuts, etc. He's using anything he can as "an excuse" as to why he
wants out. (Says the guy who wanted to go on a $500 helicopter ride when we
were in Hawaii). <--- Just an example.
> >> or worse yet, but at least now I can leave the lid up when ever I
> >> want to <ducking and grinning>.
> >
> > Well, if I come over for coffee, I'll complain!!! ;)
>
> And I'll put the lid down just to be polite :)
Thank you, kindly, sir. ;o)
>
> > Yes he did!! But did you know that he was also a womanizer? Not that
> > it matters... I mean, he is dead now. I just don't think AA meetings
> > should be a pick up place. God, that's the last thing I need right
> > now!!
>
> LOL, I won't bother to tell you where I met my (almost ex)wife then...
> You know where your priorties should be.
I think I know what you're talking about!!! Shame on you!!! (But it does
happen)!
>
> > `Just got home from a meeting. It's a beautiful day out here in
> > upstate NY. `Gonna take the Basset Hound for a looong walk and thank
> > God that STBX is outta town until Friday night!!
> >
> > Take care, JP...
>
> I will, it'll be a fun night with the (not so) little one, the wife and I
> will pay off some more bills and talk about what's been going on over the
> past couple of days (The Sad Saga Of Three Nine Year Old Little Girl Best
> Friends/Enemies)...
Sounds ::coughs:: "entertaining"!
> I guess it could be worse, I could be a kid again :)
>
> Enjoy the walk and the quiet time.
It was very nice. I forget *every time* I walk the dog that if he pulls on
the lead, I go flying!!! But the weather is just gorgeous, so it was
lovely.
~*LiveLoveLaugh*~
news:433ae9f5$0$29659$892e...@authen.white.readfreenews.net...
>
> "Crato drFrog" <d...@pound.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns96DF887444...@129.250.170.82...
> > "~*LiveLoveLaugh*~" <Nob...@myjunkaddy.com> wrote in
> > news:tMIZe.9338$Xl2...@twister.nyroc.rr.com:
> > > To say the least!! If we're getting along okay, I get very sad in my
> > > heart. It's like nothing is wrong... `cept he doesn't love me
> > > anymore.
> >
> > I did that with my soon to be ex wife for about nine years. We get along
> > fine and can even enjoy each others company when we are together. Which
> > is a lot since are active in the PTA, my daughters atheletics, etc.
> >
> > Still hurts though, I imagine it's not too pleasant for him either. I
> > know that neither my wife or myself are too happy with the way things
> > have turned out. But the simple fact is that she doesn't love me anymore
> > and there's no turning back now.
> >
> > Good luck, I'm not sure if living apart has turned out to be better or
> > worse yet, but at least now I can leave the lid up when ever I want to
> > <ducking and grinning>.
> I just want to jump in and say the WORST thing for me and many others is
> leaving the spouse in a home you shared. I think for peace of mind you
> should fight tooth and nail to sell the home and split the money.
Well, there wouldn't be much money to split, but I agree with this whole
heartedly. It's OUR home. And I can't imagine him living here w/out me.
(That cuts like a knife). :(
> I drove by my old house last Christmas and saw all the decorations up and
> cars I recognised as belonging to old mutual friends in the driveway.
> When I returned to my apartment, even surrounded by my family I wanted to
> die.
Oh Albert... I can only say how sorry I am. I know exactly how I'd feel.
I keep telling STBX that if he stays here, I'd be driving by all the time.
Heck, yesterday I picked up my new Chihuahua pup from the vets. (He was
neutered). They have an opening there. I told STBX about it last night
when he called. He actually wanted to know why I wouldn't want the job.
The vet's office is right outside our community. *IF* he did keep the
house, I certainly would feel like SHIT being there if he brought one of our
cats in. (He wants to keep the house and the four cats and the Basset
Hound. He wants me and my new Chi pup out).
This... is... insane.... :o(
albert s
"~*LiveLoveLaugh*~" <Nob...@myjunkaddy.com> wrote in message
news:lwC_e.15871$Xl2....@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Thanks. I won't be making the same mistake this Christmas. I'm not going
near the place.
This may sound nasty but I wanted to rush into the yard and tear up the
decorations. I made many of them with my own hands when we were together.
I didn't even ask to keep them because I knew I would have no use for them
in an apartment.
I could have gave them to my sister and enjoyed them in her yard. Hindsight
is 20/20.<sigh>
> I keep telling STBX that if he stays here, I'd be driving by all the time.
> Heck, yesterday I picked up my new Chihuahua pup from the vets. (He was
> neutered). They have an opening there. I told STBX about it last night
> when he called. He actually wanted to know why I wouldn't want the job.
> The vet's office is right outside our community. *IF* he did keep the
> house, I certainly would feel like SHIT being there if he brought one of
our
> cats in. (He wants to keep the house and the four cats and the Basset
> Hound. He wants me and my new Chi pup out).
>
You can get visitation rights for the dog, and possibly dual custody, I'm
not sure about the cats.
I would demand it even if you never plan to use it. You might change your
mind.
rj
wrote:
>On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 18:51:05 +0530, rj <rjk...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>IMO (and it's neither "humble" nor weakly held), our tendency to focus
>>on *self* is fundamentally wrong. And this "wrongness" manifests
>>itself almost continuously in what we say and do and in our unspoken
>>and unacknowleged and unrecognized assumption that the Self is King...
>>This underlying attitude constitutes much of the cause of the
>>unhappiness in our society. It's fruits include such things as an
>>attitude toward marriage as being fundamentally about *me* and *my*
>>happiness... with divorce rates that reflect this underlying
>>assumption.
>
>I agree with this completely, but...
>
>>I believe that we *never* have within ourselves *all* of the resources
>>to make ourselves "happy". In the final analysis, I believe that a
>>focus on one's own emotional well-being can *only* be healthy (and can
>>only lead to personal contentment) when this focus on one's own
>>well-being is seen and used as merely a tool towards a larger goal...
>>And an important part of that goal is to learn to love *others*... to
>>love them even when to do so is personally painful.
>
>I think that part of the goal is to love others, and loving others is
>intrinsically painful, in a lot of ways. But there are better ways of
>doing it than others. What Barb is talking about, I think, is not so
>much a focus on me, me, me as it is considering yourself to be one of
>the people you love. When you love others and take care of others in
>a way that is damaging to you, then no one is better off for it....
>not you, and not the people who have to bear the burden of that love.
>
I agree and I believe that you're probably right... both about the
nature of love and about Barb's approach to it. In my original post,
I never meant to be critical of Barb herself or of her personal
philosophy. Mostly, I'm just a bit uneasy about the way that it's
expressed. Why? Because it can be too easily misinterpreted and then
misused and even abused. Our culture makes a god of the love of self.
And this is something that is dangerous.
rj
Nearl J Icarus
>*was* unloving, she was depressed). But what I'm asking now
>is whether in fact we are born this way - whether some children
>are far more likely to adopt this kind of pattern than others
>irrespective of what adults do. All children will be lacking
It doesn't have to be only one source for all this. Some of it could be
hereditary, some of it environmental, sometimes we just interpret things the
wrong way.
Another factor is what do we teach people on how to react to this. I've always
looked at obstacles as being something to overcome. That was something that
was conditioned by my Dad and one of his brothers.
If I told my Dad I couldn't do something, he'd ask me if I tried. If I hadn't
tried, it was end of story. How could I possibly know that I couldn't. So I
figured that if I wanted my Dad's sympathy, I had at least better try. When it
came time for him to ask me if I tried, I said sure. My uncle would then say,
"Did you figure out why you couldn't and try again?"
My ex will view an obstacle as being something that she couldn't do. If it was
something somebody else couldn't do, she sure as hell couldn't do it either.
Our children are born into this and we are their examples. Just what example
they get and how they react to it is more than likely based on a bunch of
other factors.
Just take a person's sense of humour as an example. I find humour in irony and
sarcasm. That is from my Dad and my mother respectively. Mom also found quite
a bit of humour in words with double meanings. You had to be real careful how
you worded something when talking to her. I've picked that up also.
Mom could tell as much by how you said something as she could by what you
said. As kids. my brother and I gave up a long time ago trying to cover up the
things we did by telling stories. We figured we might as well tell her the
truth. That gets reinforced a bit because you genrally get better results if
you're up front with something to begin with.
rj
wrote:
<grin>
Well... *I* read it.
Jen, I suspect that you and I are much more in agreement than perhaps
you suppose. Your comments about the nature of love, and the way in
which God loves us and can be manifested in us sound to me (though I'm
certainly no theologian) like the concept of "prevenient grace". I
was raised as a Methodist, so this is an idea that finds resonance in
me.
But even though we may perhaps be substantially in agreement, I stand
behind the statement that we *never* have within ourselves *all* of
the resources to make ourselves "happy". One of the most obvious
ways in which this is manifested is in our need for other peoole. We
humans are odd creatures... We all need "space" from each other while
at the same time we cannot live and still remain human in total
isolation... This is why solitary confinement is in fact a subtle and
peculiarly cruel form of torture. We canNOT be happy only with and
within ourselves.
Ever see that Tom Hanks movie? Castaway? It may have been fiction,
but it illustrated some fundamental truths about humanity and life.
In order to remain sane, Hanks' character *had* to rejoin the human
race. His only alternative was death.
rj
Crato drFrog
news:arC_e.15870$Xl2....@twister.nyroc.rr.com:
>
> I'm hoping that the time it takes to get all this straightened out
> will give me less of a heart ache when all is said and done. I mean,
> for you, is it any easier now?
>
Honestly? Yes and no. Something about "the wisdom to know the
difference". The train wreck is coming, I just have to remind myself that
there's no reason that I have to be standing on the track counting the
railroad ties.
Last night was fairly pleasant. I made the mistake of laughing and say
"Well, actually, if you member when you...". (note to self: Never make
someone feel stupid when they barely like you anyway).
When I'm alone waiting for my daughter to call it gets to me. I just play
on the computer (try installing three operating systems on one computer.
That's an almost certain way to keep distracted. Plus you get to discover
exactly how many ways you can combine all of the different english curse
words) and play guitar. Plus it helps to call friends and make plans that
don't involve my STBX.
Today's a good day though.
>
> I am responsible for 50% of our troubles. This means financial,
> physical, emotional, etc. The difference is, I'm 100% willing to work
> things out. I haven't been working for medical reasons, but I am able
> to go back to work now. We *both* ran a lot of plastic up. Only he
> sees it as groceries and booze on his end. My charges that he blames
> me for is for nails, pedicures and hair cuts, etc. He's using
> anything he can as "an excuse" as to why he wants out. (Says the guy
> who wanted to go on a $500 helicopter ride when we were in Hawaii).
> <--- Just an example.
>
I have my share of the blame, but I honestly think my marriage failure
was just two wrong personality types (I've been described as "If you were
any more laid back, you'd be dead" and she's a type A alpha female type).
Didn't really sync too well from the start :)
>> LOL, I won't bother to tell you where I met my (almost ex)wife
>> then... You know where your priorties should be.
>
> I think I know what you're talking about!!! Shame on you!!! (But it
> does happen)!
Nope, we were well within the guide lines (old timers even)... Which just
goes to show something. I'm not really exactly sure what though :)
>> I will, it'll be a fun night with the (not so) little one, the wife
>> and I will pay off some more bills and talk about what's been going
>> on over the past couple of days (The Sad Saga Of Three Nine Year Old
>> Little Girl Best Friends/Enemies)...
>
> Sounds ::coughs:: "entertaining"!
It is, if you can keep a serious enough face. One chuckle at the wrong
time puts you into parental purgatory.
But it serves to remind me that all problems are personal and relative
and that mine aren't nearly as bad as the problems that some others have.
I could have had eight children, had discovered that I was transgendered
and had fallen in love with a defrocked catholic priest who's paying
child support for fourteen kids and is under indictment as a child
molester.
See, it's all relative :)
> It was very nice. I forget *every time* I walk the dog that if he
> pulls on the lead, I go flying!!! But the weather is just gorgeous,
> so it was lovely.
Ah, those puppies :)
JP
Crato drFrog
@authen.white.readfreenews.net:
> I just want to jump in and say the WORST thing for me and many others
is
> leaving the spouse in a home you shared. I think for peace of mind you
> should fight tooth and nail to sell the home and split the money.
> I drove by my old house last Christmas and saw all the decorations up
and
> cars I recognised as belonging to old mutual friends in the driveway.
> When I returned to my apartment, even surrounded by my family I wanted
to
> die.
>
Whoa Albert! Are you on my ex's side??? I'm the one getting the house :)
It's by mutual agreement though. That way my daughter doesn't have as
complete a disruption of her life as she would have otherwise.
Grin, thank's for the idea though...
JP <planning a Christmas party and growing little red horns on his
forehead>
Bogart
bogey
Bogart
I disagree. Love is not painful. Change is painful. What you are
describing ("taking care of others in a way that is
damaging to you") is not love.
bogey
rj
wrote:
>rj wrote:
>>
>> I agree and I believe that you're probably right... both about the
>> nature of love and about Barb's approach to it. In my original post,
>> I never meant to be critical of Barb herself or of her personal
>> philosophy. Mostly, I'm just a bit uneasy about the way that it's
>> expressed. Why? Because it can be too easily misinterpreted and then
>> misused and even abused. Our culture makes a god of the love of self.
>> And this is something that is dangerous.
>>
>> rj
>>
>
>I disagree. Love is not painful. Change is painful. What you are
>describing ("taking care of others in a way that is
>damaging to you") is not love.
>
>bogey
Sorry, Boge, but you are wrong.
Love is often painful. And what's more, *your* own posts here are a
testatment to this fact. For instance, it is often painful for you to
continue to deal as best you can with your daughter. Yet you do so
for *her* sake and for *her* welfare and I suspect that you will
continue to do so. Because you love your daughter.
rj
Bill in Co.
Just as an aside, since you brought that up....
Actually, I found that movie pretty damn depressing at the end. Others,
though, say, he was free - and happy - (standing at that fork in the roads),
but the way I see it, he lost his wife and former life, and THAT was
depressing, and was NOT made up for at the end (even though he had a smile
on his face). Not even close.
I also found "Lost In Translation" very depressing too - because those
characters really were lost and sooooo isolated, and you could feel it, and
they were basically just clutching at temporary straws to get thru it.
Pretty desperate, I'd say.
Sigh. I guess I'm the only one who sees it that way (for both of
those)...
rj
<surly_cur...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>rj wrote:
>> On 27 Sep 2005 07:10:51 -0700, "shinypenny" <shinype...@yahoo.com>
(snip)
>> Ever see that Tom Hanks movie? Castaway? It may have been fiction,
>> but it illustrated some fundamental truths about humanity and life.
>> In order to remain sane, Hanks' character *had* to rejoin the human
>> race. His only alternative was death.
>
>Just as an aside, since you brought that up....
>
>Actually, I found that movie pretty damn depressing at the end. Others,
>though, say, he was free - and happy - (standing at that fork in the roads),
>but the way I see it, he lost his wife and former life, and THAT was
>depressing, and was NOT made up for at the end (even though he had a smile
>on his face). Not even close.
>
>I also found "Lost In Translation" very depressing too - because those
>characters really were lost and sooooo isolated, and you could feel it, and
>they were basically just clutching at temporary straws to get thru it.
>Pretty desperate, I'd say.
>
>Sigh. I guess I'm the only one who sees it that way (for both of
>those)...
>
Jeez, Bill...
Is there *any* aspect of life that you don't find depressing?
rj
Bill in Co.
Yeah....
When I'm canoeing on a serene lake next to the shore, weaving thru all those
various inlets, and taking in the natural life along the way. Or when I'm
sitting on the porch in a cabin in the woods of 100 foot pine trees,
observing and listening to the sounds of the woods (and perhaps NPR), and
drinking a Heineken along the way. Or when I'm sitting outside a general
store on a porch and playing armchair traveler to the people that drop in.
Or when I'm restoring some old audio music tracks that were really messed
up. Or when I'm teaching electronics in college to some young adult
students. And stuff like that....