non-vanilla
Celeste
would be good, (looks at jt, feel this might be somethin u have some thouhts
on maybe). may get graphic, will alter spoiler when ive finished typin. k
not long, but graphic in parts, mention of male anatomy, is splatted well.
be careful.
Celeste.
a
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j
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ok. fwiw im female n have a girlfriend at the moment, who has been around
longer than any of my other ex's, a record!
i dont know how to feel about some of the thouhts i have when we have s*x.
im gonna jump right in here, (tryin to think of phrases that arent as
graphic as the ones i would use) when i p*netr*te her with my f*ng*rs, i
imagine that i am male and that i am f***ing her with a p*n*s. not in a
violent way just to clear that up, (thats another post-sigh). i told her
about it, and she was ok about it, said she was sure i wasnt the only woman
to think like that. but i dont know, feels weird to me.
we even bought a toy, ahem. kinda like a very long, soft d*ldo(i) that
bends that we could both use, so it kinda felt like i had a p*n*s. she was
happy about it and enjoyed it but at the same time im not sure what it means
that i think this.
it bothers me that it crosses over with some of the power games ive played
in the past with men. i have dated very rough, dangeros men(one was a
m*rd*rer), and dominated them in bed. the bodys very tall n im very strong.
i got a kick out of being completly in control of these men. i dont like
the idea that somehow i asociate a p*n*s with strength n power. i have
strong beliefs that a woman can be as strong if not stronger than any man, n
i dont like the idea that maybe some part of me feels i need a p*n*s to be
ultimatly strong. i dont know if this is makin any sense to anyone at all
but i could realy use some ideas on this, cos its botherin me a lot.
ta,
Celeste.
Beauty
Hi Celeste -
Good to see you again. I meant to go back and straighten out a tiny
little thing in our last conversation, but I forget what it was, so I'll
just get to this one, and then maybe go back and find the last one. But
we're fine, so don't worry about that part of things.
As to what you say and worry about - first, you wonder if you are odd or
rare in feeling as you do, and I would say from everything I know, that
you most assuredly are not. I mean - as far as I know, your feelings are
fairly typical - I mean, the thing about enjoying power and p*n*tration,
associating it w/use of p*n*s, etc. Heck, I even feel that way sometimes
when I'm just w/myself, and I don't even p*n*trate.
And as for some of the women I've seen - well, I recall in one circ. (I
won't explain how or why, but it wasn't a sxl encounter), there was a
woman hanging out in y-fronts and a vest-undershirt and tattoos, and she
was pretty hot stuff. I mean, clearly, for her, it was about being
identified w/"acting out" p*n*s stuff - but her g'friend was a soft,
gentle woman (sxy and hot, but soft) - and the g'friend also really in a
weird and immed. way fell in lv w/me - and the y-front woman kind of
said, well, why don't you tell her, etc. It was all very interesting. I
mean, it was all only part of a week-end thing, involved w/an art project.
And what do you think they make "toys" for if not because lots of people
like them?
As for the strength stuff, and enjoying hugely being able to use
physical power, to feel grounded and enabled and stuff - haven't you
read my posts on the martial arts? I am not being sxl in the dojang, but
it's the same idea: a wonderful sense of power, a great joy in being
able to feel strong - and I am also an unusually tall and big-boned
woman, and have always gloried in it. (Glory used to be my signature
word - almost would have used it as a name instead of Beauty here,
except that it felt too conceited and also outdated, emotionally -
Beauty, for me, encompasses the larger, gentler, truer, more lve and
harmony oriented things I care about. Oddly, of course, in UK, the
flowers you call Morning Beauties are here called - you guessed it -
Morning Glories. So there you have it.)
So how's that for a narcissistic reply?
Now - what is it that is bothering you, really? I am not sure I got it
from what you wrote.
Beauty.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
J.L. Thomas
"Celeste" <Cele...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:SXMnb.4199$0E5....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
i hear and obey your call... *smirks* :-D
>
> ok. fwiw im female n have a girlfriend at the moment, who
has been around
> longer than any of my other ex's, a record!
fkn excellent!
...i'm so freaking jealous, btw... ;) if i wanna get l**d,
i gotta keep reminding myself that the body's female and
it's *OK* for this *guy* to be touching me...eesh.
*shudders* worse, i'm sposta figure out that it's ok for me
to want that. *eye twitches* *shudders again*
> i dont know how to feel about some of the thouhts i have
when we have s*x.
> im gonna jump right in here, (tryin to think of phrases
that arent as
> graphic as the ones i would use) when i p*netr*te her with
my f*ng*rs, i
> imagine that i am male and that i am f***ing her with a
p*n*s. not in a
sounds good to me.
> violent way just to clear that up, (thats another
post-sigh). i told her
excellent. :) i'd wondered. ;)
(mind you, *I* would *LIKE* the v**lent way...but we know
i'm just weird.)
> about it, and she was ok about it, said she was sure i
wasnt the only woman
> to think like that.
most definitely not.
>but i dont know, feels weird to me.
:(
sorry it feels weird. more later.
> we even bought a toy, ahem. kinda like a very long, soft
d*ldo(i) that
> bends that we could both use, so it kinda felt like i had
a p*n*s. she was
heh...again...*jealous!!!* ;)
> happy about it and enjoyed it
fwiw, in some way that i haven't been able to define yet, to
my way of thinking
this is the only important aspect of it. i mean, i know
that how it makes you feel is important, too...but it seems
to me like you're enjoying it, just not sure if you're
supposed to be, right?
so...there ya have it. you're enjoying it. she's enjoying
it. it's not hurting anybody. it's good.
now...there might be *reasons* why you feel guilty, or at
least feel like you should feel guilty...but i'll get into
that.
> but at the same time im not sure what it means
> that i think this.
i personally think the thoughts *might* be a holdover from
other issues...but that they're not all that relevant?
cuz...you're enjoying it. if there were a problem, it would
start *feeling* like a problem.
i mean...this is all just my opinion, u know?
but...there's 2 different senses (at least) to the
non-vanilla stuff i do. one feels healthy and fun and
...lets me feel naughty or something... and has room for
loving feelings, and safe words and closeness, and an
understanding with my mate that this is play. that feels
good to me. some of us *really* like feeling naughty.
*sheesh* ;)
and, if i'm being dommy, that feels good, too. doesn't feel
icky.
but there're ways that i can play with this stuff in my head
or whatever that feel black and icky inside. there's a
darkness to my memories of this stuff...it feels murky and
...tight, though emotionally, not in any way that could be
funny. it feels sick.
took me a long time to be able to "see" how these things
"feel", ya know?
and, thing is...3 years ago, that darkness feeling bugged me
enough that i *NEEDED* to do something about it. it just
felt so wrong..... ...and i did something about it. it
doesn't bother me so much, now.
so i guess i'd ask...do you feel like you're hurting her, or
that you want to? do you feel like this is going to make it
easier for you to become cruel and sadistic? or do you feel
more uncertain, like "is it ok for me to enjoy this?"
i mean...*sigh*
in my experience, ppl who got abused sxly as kids end up
working thru a bunch of the neg feelings thru sex. and, as
awful as it feels, having to do that, (a.) i think it's
worth it, but more importantly (b.) it's ok to do.
i mean...i guess i used to feel like i couldn't "subject"
dave to the full realm of difficulties i had during sex for
so long...so i'd hide it when i had problems (nearly every
time) and just did something else in my mind so i could get
it over with and get what *I* wanted: dave feeling happy and
contented.
but, the thing is...it's ok for me to have to work thru icky
stuff thru sex. it took awhile, but i eventually got to a
point where, if i'm working thru icky feelings in a sexual
context (Beauty described this *so very well* in a post abt
this a couple of weeks ago!), and orgasm, and burst into
tears 2 seconds later...dave and i both know this is a VERY
GOOD THING.
but, more importantly...it's ok for me to do that. i'm not
taking unfair/undue advantage of my relationship with
dave...because i'm working on stuff to make the relationship
better, and he wants me to be able to heal, and heck, it all
feels good to him anyway... ;) (and yes, honey, it's ok to
post...*half-smirks, half-smiles warmly*)
i'm just gonna start randomly throwing his name into every
post i write. i dunno - do you have a filter set or
something, sweetheart, that searches for your name? dave.
dave dave dave dave dave. :) *grins* *hugs dave* miss
you!!! come home from work soon!!!!! :-D
(oh, sh*t...when the heck did the *kids* switch in???)
...anyways...what the heck was i talking about? i know i
wasn't doing a good job of explaining it, anyway...
so, i guess what i'm trying to say is...if there's some
aspect of this that's related to you working thru some of
your problems, then i think that's a good and healthy thing,
and i personally wouldn't worry about it.
>
> it bothers me that it crosses over with some of the power
games ive played
> in the past with men. i have dated very rough, dangeros
men(one was a
> m*rd*rer), and dominated them in bed. the bodys very tall
*GRINS*
no comment...
>n im very strong.
> i got a kick out of being completly in control of these
men. i dont like
> the idea that somehow i asociate a p*n*s with strength n
power. i have
i'm not sure how i feel about that. i guess in some ways i
probably have the same association...?
(um...hello??? duh??? half of us are guys because we think
girls couldn't've handled what we needed to handle, so we
became guys inside??? we think all the kids are girls, but
at least 3 of the guys *definitely* qualify as "kids". and
most adults would consider *ALL* of the guys "kids".
so...why aren't the younger guys "kids"? cuz guys are
stronger and more capable, right?)
<yeah, but in actuality, we're - *ALL OF US* - female.
like, cuz the body's female. so i can *feel* like a guy as
much as i want. i'm still *ugh* *swallows uncomfortably*
female. So my strength, endurance, and whatever else, that
i associate with being a guy...is being DONE by a FEMALE.
so...yeah...we have some f'd up notions in some ways. but
we're pretty seriously in touch with the fact that *in
reality* females can be just as strong and capable as guys
(though, of course, men *tend* to be stronger, physically,
than the average female...but that doesn't mean much.).>
<...and besides, Genevieve's incredibly strong, and Jen is
insanely powerful and capable...and *she's* "just a kid".>
> strong beliefs that a woman can be as strong if not
stronger than any man, n
> i dont like the idea that maybe some part of me feels i
need a p*n*s to be
> ultimatly strong. i dont know if this is makin any sense
to anyone at all
> but i could realy use some ideas on this, cos its botherin
me a lot.
>
> ta,
> Celeste.
>
dunno bout the "ultimately strong" thing. might be worth
talking about some more, if you'd like. i'll listen.
jt
Beauty
I didn't realize that Genevieve is *strong* !!!!! Wow. Just thinking
about what you said about her reminding you of me.
Beauty.
Celeste
thanks for ur reply. taken me some time to reply cos of son n competin with
gf
for the puter lol. which means somehow puter has eaten ur reply but i
remember it prety good so thats ok i think. and u were right when u
said(scuse if misquote) so what is it that is realy bothering you?
i am left in a big conflict with myself over what is meant by being strong.
plus i have fem*n*st beliefs that i feel do not go with the way i think
during s*x.
a woman should not have to imitate a m*n to be strong. i dont want to
asociate strength with m*n. i am strong, independant, able, confident and a
woman. something deep in me imitates my f*th*r. i smoke the same brand,
drink the same b**r, have the same hobbies, the same humuor i could go on.
it was said by T2 that i perpetuate? the ab*s* for the littles. i have some
respect for him. and a large part of me sees him as strong at the same time
as seein him as very very weak. n yet the traits i copy are not traits of
strength but dependency. and at the same time they are me. it is who i am.
i dont know/see another way.
i dont want to hurt the littles, i dont want to them to feel ab*s*d by me,
that is the oposite to what i want. i guess a lot of the time i follow the
code you have to be cr*el to be kind. i dont do it without purpose or for
fun. they just have to learn their place. my head spins, to you this
probly doesnt seem conected to the non-vanilla i posted. it is tho. head
spins more. stuck here.
a stagnated Celeste.
Celeste
too when restarted, mesage gone to the big void, tryin again, argh!!!
carryin on below for graphic reasons. (afterthouht-do NOT scroll to the very
bottom of this msg to get to what i wrote there is a second spoiler much
lower for a v good reason. thx)
Celeste
"J.L. Thomas" <jtdg...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:_%cob.25$Bf7....@news1.news.adelphia.net...
*grin* it worked then ;p just knew id be comfortable talkin with you bout
this, n had
a feelin(right) it seems that you would have some good thouhts on this.
>
> >
> > ok. fwiw im female n have a girlfriend at the moment, who
> has been around
> > longer than any of my other ex's, a record!
>
> fkn excellent!
>
LOL tis a mir*cle i think
> ...i'm so freaking jealous, btw... ;) if i wanna get l**d,
> i gotta keep reminding myself that the body's female and
> it's *OK* for this *guy* to be touching me...eesh.
> *shudders* worse, i'm sposta figure out that it's ok for me
> to want that. *eye twitches* *shudders again*
ugh, rather you than me. tho i think from many of your earlier posts,
that you have found ways to enjoy it, n that its not all shudders LOL
unintended pun. i do wish sometimes i didnt think so visualy. then again
life
must get very borin for those ppl who only think in words. methinks theyre
missin
out on somethin.
>
> > i dont know how to feel about some of the thouhts i have
> when we have s*x.
> > im gonna jump right in here, (tryin to think of phrases
> that arent as
> > graphic as the ones i would use) when i p*netr*te her with
> my f*ng*rs, i
> > imagine that i am male and that i am f***ing her with a
> p*n*s. not in a
>
> sounds good to me.
:)
>
> > violent way just to clear that up, (thats another
> post-sigh). i told her
>
> excellent. :) i'd wondered. ;)
> (mind you, *I* would *LIKE* the v**lent way...but we know
> i'm just weird.)
me too, so your not alone, but then u probly figured that anyway.
the violent way ive only ever done to men. esp the m*rd*r*r i mentioned.
he loved it n hated it at the same time, said hed never been fkd like that
b4.
not boastin just what he said. i loved it. loved the power, the control.
i would never do that to a woman (brain said, i think :/ ). that bothers me.
a lot.
thing is there was something in me that felt violent when i did it. i was
thinkin this is what 'they' saw.
i could feel the anger in me. wantin somehow to reclaim the power they had
over us. i was feelin like 'them'.
maybe im empathising too much with 'them'? dunno. n at the same time i know
thats not what they saw, my gf was enjoyin it.
somehow when i fkd her, i felt like i was defiling her somehow, betraying
her with my thouhts. some i see is transference,
projectin how we felt when we were fkd onto how i think she would be
feeling. the guilts still there. i feel like im disrespecting her by
wanting to do this to her. i know she doesnt see it this way.
>
> > about it, and she was ok about it, said she was sure i
> wasnt the only woman
> > to think like that.
>
> most definitely not.
k, good to know (not sarcastic)
>
> >but i dont know, feels weird to me.
>
> :(
> sorry it feels weird. more later.
>
> > we even bought a toy, ahem. kinda like a very long, soft
> d*ldo(i) that
> > bends that we could both use, so it kinda felt like i had
> a p*n*s. she was
>
> heh...again...*jealous!!!* ;)
>
> > happy about it and enjoyed it
>
> fwiw, in some way that i haven't been able to define yet, to
> my way of thinking
> this is the only important aspect of it. i mean, i know
> that how it makes you feel is important, too...but it seems
> to me like you're enjoying it, just not sure if you're
> supposed to be, right?
>
> so...there ya have it. you're enjoying it. she's enjoying
> it. it's not hurting anybody. it's good.
k, hear ya, also hear Beauty's thouhts that the companys sell toys
bcos there is a demand for them, not just the odd sicko like me(how i feel).
ya, i think so.
>
> and, thing is...3 years ago, that darkness feeling bugged me
> enough that i *NEEDED* to do something about it. it just
> felt so wrong..... ...and i did something about it. it
> doesn't bother me so much, now.
>
> so i guess i'd ask...do you feel like you're hurting her, or
> that you want to? do you feel like this is going to make it
> easier for you to become cruel and sadistic? or do you feel
> more uncertain, like "is it ok for me to enjoy this?"
all of the above, mostly answered up higher i think.
LOL, LOL and LMAO, methinks hes filter must be broke last few days
tho, hes missed a few!
>
> (oh, sh*t...when the heck did the *kids* switch in???)
>
> ...anyways...what the heck was i talking about? i know i
> wasn't doing a good job of explaining it, anyway...
>
> so, i guess what i'm trying to say is...if there's some
> aspect of this that's related to you working thru some of
> your problems, then i think that's a good and healthy thing,
> and i personally wouldn't worry about it.
i half hear you on this. yes i need to work thru these, on the other
hand, to what extent to you act them out to work thru them?
there was an incident with our 13yr old, Karen who im v close to, the other
wk which i MUST post about,
btw here and my gf. it shows the extent that the way i behave s*x*ally is
havin an unhealthy affect on others.
>
> >
> > it bothers me that it crosses over with some of the power
> games ive played
> > in the past with men. i have dated very rough, dangeros
> men(one was a
> > m*rd*rer), and dominated them in bed. the bodys very tall
>
> *GRINS*
> no comment...
>
LMAO, no comment required! again...if only i could blush...
*resists the urge to go further down this line...
> >n im very strong.
> > i got a kick out of being completly in control of these
> men. i dont like
> > the idea that somehow i asociate a p*n*s with strength n
> power. i have
>
> i'm not sure how i feel about that. i guess in some ways i
> probably have the same association...?
>
> (um...hello??? duh??? half of us are guys because we think
> girls couldn't've handled what we needed to handle, so we
> became guys inside??? we think all the kids are girls, but
> at least 3 of the guys *definitely* qualify as "kids". and
> most adults would consider *ALL* of the guys "kids".
> so...why aren't the younger guys "kids"? cuz guys are
> stronger and more capable, right?)
>
> <yeah, but in actuality, we're - *ALL OF US* - female.
> like, cuz the body's female. so i can *feel* like a guy as
> much as i want. i'm still *ugh* *swallows uncomfortably*
> female. So my strength, endurance, and whatever else, that
> i associate with being a guy...is being DONE by a FEMALE.
> so...yeah...we have some f'd up notions in some ways. but
> we're pretty seriously in touch with the fact that *in
> reality* females can be just as strong and capable as guys
> (though, of course, men *tend* to be stronger, physically,
> than the average female...but that doesn't mean much.).>
exactly, you as a w*m*n (dunno how comfortable you are with me sayin that)
have been strong and endured what you have. as we have. and in some ways
(with my fem*n*st beleifs) feel im betrayin my womanness by acting like im
strong
therefore i am like a man. not explainin myself well *sigh* wish i could
draw pictures here instead lol.
then again, probly not a good idea LOL
>
> <...and besides, Genevieve's incredibly strong, and Jen is
> insanely powerful and capable...and *she's* "just a kid".>
kewl.
>
> > strong beliefs that a woman can be as strong if not
> stronger than any man, n
> > i dont like the idea that maybe some part of me feels i
> need a p*n*s to be
> > ultimatly strong. i dont know if this is makin any sense
> to anyone at all
> > but i could realy use some ideas on this, cos its botherin
> me a lot.
> >
> > ta,
> > Celeste.
> >
>
> dunno bout the "ultimately strong" thing. might be worth
> talking about some more, if you'd like. i'll listen.
ok i gotta add a spoiler here, this is v important, what i wrote below is v
graphic,
and probably quite s*ck involving perps n revenge.be very very careful, its
ok not to read it.
its prety bad. k realy recomend not readin it, i needed it out of my head
thats all.
thx lots for gettin this far,
Celeste.
k
i
t
s
b
a
d
n
p
r
e
t
y
s
*
c
k
dunno bout the "ultimately strong" thing. might be worth
> talking about some more, if you'd like. i'll listen.
like a need to have no weaknesses at all, for it to be imposible for
anyone to hurt you. to have the power to hurt others but to choose not to.
strength of mind and body together. and i want to yell at myself n say you
dont
need a d*ck for that. but then theres those thouhts that say well it was a
d*ck that
did the most damage. i have a desperate fantasy to have a d*ck and to f*ck
those that hurt us
from behind, defile them, and reduce them to utter weakness. this includes
our m*ther. she is the one i
want to hurt the most. i want her to know what she did to us. i want her
to know exactly what it feels like.
(deleted the last bit) unnecesary sick graphic txt. about precisely what
she would experience. involving
several bodily fluids,pain n sounds. sorry if u read this. somethin that
fell out of my thouhts, that i dont think i ever
admitted to myself. *some shame
Celeste.
Celeste
you replied earlier to this, but your post has now gone lost somewhere due
to
me not sortin my outlook settings after huge re-instalation. thanks for
your thouhts, n for understandin the pursute of ultimate strength.
apreciated.
C.
astri
>i dont want to hurt the littles, i dont want to them to feel ab*s*d by me,
>that is the oposite to what i want. i guess a lot of the time i follow the
>code you have to be cr*el to be kind. i dont do it without purpose or for
>fun. they just have to learn their place. my head spins, to you this
>probly doesnt seem conected to the non-vanilla i posted. it is tho. head
>spins more. stuck here.
>a stagnated Celeste.
they have to learn their place....
which place is that? the one their ab*sers set?
where is this place? huddled in some corner?
how about running through a playground shrieking with glee? wouldn't that
be the place for a child?
maybe what you need to do is to define again what their place is and how to
help them learn it?
just some things for you to think about.
-- astri
J.L. Thomas
you're both very strong women. and strong in the ways that
*make* them women, if that makes any sense.
jt
"Beauty" <beauty@***po.hm.uc.edu> wrote in message
news:ZVjob.7139$Zi6...@news02.roc.ny...
J.L. Thomas
jt (whose littles have spent considerable time in corners,
and now get to play. "more", at least, if not "enough".)
"astri" <as...@lava.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSI.4.58.03...@malasada.lava.net...
J.L. Thomas
i'm good at obeyi*cough, cough*
yeah, i've worked thru *so much* of this sh*t myself, and
it's been such an incredible relief to me to have ppl to
talk to about it who *get it*, you know? so i'm happy
spewing my too-wordy thoughts out for you, whenever you'd
like. ;)
<snip> > ...i'm so freaking jealous, btw... ;) if i wanna
get l**d,
> > i gotta keep reminding myself that the body's female and
> > it's *OK* for this *guy* to be touching me...eesh.
> > *shudders* worse, i'm sposta figure out that it's ok
for me
> > to want that. *eye twitches* *shudders again*
>
> ugh, rather you than me. tho i think from many of your
earlier posts,
> that you have found ways to enjoy it, n that its not all
shudders LOL
> unintended pun.
heh. don't rub it in, k? ;) it's still *really* weird
trying to get it that it's ok to enjoy it. i still feel
like someone's gonna denounce me for being....well....huh.
no way i can finish that sentence and not seem bigoted.
so let's go with it for a sec. see...when i think about a
man having sex with a man, it doesn't bother me, especially.
maybe sometimes, but that's only if one of them seems to me
obviously to be a survivor, and is using the interaction in
an unhealthy way, imho...i mean, i recognize this in others
at times, cuz i've been that way. but just...a man who
loves a man...? that's fine.
but i guess i grew up always having (a.) being female, and
(b.) being a gay male equated with being weak, ya know? i
wonder if i'm so triggery bout being thought to be g*y
(splatted for me) because it's associated with weakness for
me? some of us used to have that reaction to recognizing
that we're female, you know? and if ANYBODY implies that i
can't do something because i'm a girl, i will DAMNED sure
prove them wrong!
i wonder if there's a connection between me thinking i need
to be strong so that i can do my job for the system?
like...if i can be considered weak, then i might not be
strong enough to protect the system if something bad happens
again. head twitched just a bit on "might not be strong
enough", and i caught a glimpse of a flashback to intense
pain, but just a brief glimpse, u know?
being weak means...it was hideously painful? the badstuff?
if i'm strong, i don't have to feel it? or it doesn't
matter to me? so i have to believe i'm strong so i don't
have to feel it again?
is believing i'm strong what keeps my flashbacks at bay? so
even if *I* don't think that being gay is bad at all, the
fact that somebody somewhere might possibly think that i'm
weak if i'm a guy and i enjoy having sex with a guy is too
much for me to handle? it's too close to...the truth...?
that i was a little girl, and *couldn't* handle the pain?
that i *WAS* weak: too weak to protect myself. *twitch*
*punches wall* (no hole in the wall this time)
I'm not weak. I'm strong.
Bryan (was a blue b4 those last 2 sentences), for jt (more
later, promise.)
J.L. Thomas
express?) to reset the newsgroup and redownload all
messages, if you want.
jt
"Celeste" <Cele...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:5NLob.851$yX4...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
Beauty
"irrational" but lots of women "get it" when I try to talk w/them about
it, but then I select my audiences pretty carefully) to go into here. It
has partly to do w/being the gates of life, though. Sorry if that
triggers - and it *does not* mean to imply that women are "better" than
men as people. It's just a particular *kind* of strength-energy.
Beauty.
Beauty
certain ways that work kind of outside my own personal problems, if you
know what I mean.
Beauty.
J.L. Thomas
of strength-energy peculiar to women. we mostly just look
at Genevieve like she's an alien from outer space, cuz she's
so different from the rest of us.
i mean, for one thing, she's *mature*! ;)
jt (nathan ;) )
"Beauty" <beauty@***po.hm.uc.edu> wrote in message
news:9Vvpb.11625$l42....@news02.roc.ny...
Beauty
she's even closer to Genevieve than "I" am. We just found out that Diana
has black hair when we rinsed ours black. (She almost said right out
loud, "Well, about xxxxxxx time.")
But who else has black hair we goes right back to someone we wasn't sure
we had inside, though we knew for sure we had an almost f*tishistic
devotion to / identification with her when we were young - and we still
maintain it, deep down inside and secret - and we talk all about this
when we make a whole new post about all the things we learned when we
rinsed our hair black, incl. the fact that *no one* mentions it!!!!!!!!!!
Can you imagine? (Oh, la, la, la, la - someone w/absolutely vivid red
hair has just turned it raven-wing black, but, hey, *we* ain't talking!
Like - weird. Only one woman at karate mentioned it - the sole Asian
woman, also of "senior" age, a 2nd degree black belt recently returned
to trianing, to our great happiness. She said, laughing, "Your hair is
*soooo* black!!!!" It was funny. And I said, well, Egyptian queens
didn't have red hair - then I said I'd always had a desire to know what
I'd be like w/black hair - and then I said I had a kind of secret
identification with . . . and she interrupted and staid, "You wanted to
be Asian? It was so funny, because when you think about it, I could have
wanted to be just about any ethnicity in the world except for Northern
Euro. and been aiming for black hair. But anyhow, I said, "No - well,
yes, but via Native North Americans - I mean, that's where they all came
from in the first place, across the Bering Strait." I adore having her
back in class - makes it even better, being there.
I've decided that I am going to write a grant proposal to allow us to do
a lecture-demonstration on the history and use of the martial arts, at
our library. It will be touted as a scholarly presentation - which it
will be, in that it will be educational - but we will also be doing some
hands-(and feet)-on action moves for them, too.
Later -
Beautys.
Celeste
interact with children.
d
g
h
s
g
g
g
gf
g
hey astri, jt,
i hear what u say, but it doesnt feel that simple. i know im not very good
with
the kids, but i dont feel it is ok for them to play out front. when it
comes down to it, the body is adult, we have things to do, and we have
enough disruption right now without them causing more chaos. frankie's much
softer with them n the results have been having to repaint walls on more
than one ocasion, n lots of mess. and until they learn to behave, there is
plenty of room inside for them to play.
ok, and theres somethin more than that for me. they dont just wanna come
out any time when we're alone n play quietly, no. baby esp wants to play
with ppl who dont realy want to play with her. our T has made it clear on
several ocasions that is simply somethin she doesnt do, our old T2 plus a
previos T have played with her in the past, and she becomes v attached v
quickly, and this is the thing that bothers me most. it has led to a lot of
pain n hurt on their part, when the Ts have gone away or said they dont want
to play anymore. baby thinks she has done somethin wrong or been b*d etc.
if she plays inside she is safer. she has older ones who will play n look
after her, who can be trusted n who wont leave.
also have a lot of issues with the way we were raised. it was very
important that we knew our place, we were not chaotic kids, til i hit our
secondary school anyhow ;p it was important that children look up to there
elders n respect them.
i identift a lot with our f*th*r which is proble why i react to the kids the
way i do. this is somethin im tryin to work on at the moment. not that im
gettin far.
*shrugs* not sure i can say anythin else right now, head is bad.
C.
"J.L. Thomas" <jtdg...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:xokpb.2319$Bf7.1...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
Jill
your inside kids out sometimes. They can learn to be out only when
it is just all of you. They can learn to play nicely and
appropriately. It is just like any kid. You set limits, be
consistent, and provide appropriate opportunities. My outside kids
like to paint. There is no way I'd give them _real_ paint at this
age so they get washable finger paints. Then I set rules about where
they paint (at the table) and what they paint on (the paper). If
they won't follow the rules I take the paint away. I provided my
inside kids with the same sort of stuff. One of them liked to draw
so I got her some washable pastels and she was allowed to use them
outside when we were alone or inside at the table. A few times she
didn't and I took them away from her for a few days. Once she showed
me she could use them nicely I got her _real_ pastels (which are a
huge mess if you aren't careful) and she did a great job with them.
These are just examples of how you can help to parent your inside
kids. Or maybe someone else inside can learn to do this. But
refusing to let them ever come out is a problem because they will
never learn that now is not then and they will remain stuck. If they
remain stuck the entire system will remain stuck in some ways. And,
if you are stuck you are not growing and changing.
You can also assume that your inside kids might have some problems
from having an inappropriate upbringing. That is where learning
parenting skills would help. Your t'pist should be able to help with
this. One of my inside kids was very withdrawn. She refused to
interact with external people. I had to teach her to do so. It took
quite a while and it was frustrating at times but she had to learn
to do this in order to realize that she was safe and no longer in
the past. One way I did this was with what is called positive
reinforcement. I basically 'bribed' her with stuff when she used
good behaviors. If she came out and looked around while we were at
the park she got stickers. If she came out and colored when we were
home alone she got pop. Stuff like that. If she came out and did
stuff that was inappropriate (well ok, _she_ never did that but
another insider used to:) then there were consequences. Like the
time one of the inside kids came out while we were driving! YIKES
She was going to get ice cream and we said 'no'. She pouted for a
few days but then realized that driving a car when you are five is
not an option so if she wanted ice cream she had to stay inside and
wait patiently for one of the adults to get it for her.
Meanwhile I also realized that there are ways to allow kids to drive
safely (at controlled go kart tracks) so we went to those places a
few times to let this inside kid 'really' drive. Needless to say,
the problems stopped and the kid did lots of positive behaviors in
order to get to 'drive' :)
None of this is easy but it is doable.
Rainbow Colors (Jill)
In article <m0Npb.6728$eT3....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>,
--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing
we are becoming white light.
ji...@tuells.org
J.L. Thomas
my inside kids (i have no outside kids) (doh! darned
narcolepsy!! i want my adderall back!!! zzzzzzzz...) come
out with dave or val, and most of them feel safe around
other friends when they want to come out, and they're pretty
well behaved.
but when it comes to letting them have "childish" things -
stickers, kid's toys (that wouldn't necessarily count as
"retro" sortsa things that geeks tend to like), coloring
books - these are a REAL problem for some reason.
i'm beginning to think that a big part of the problem is
that when i was growing up, there wasn't money for stuff
like that, so (a.) i have a naturally thrifty bent,
especially when little, and (b.) kid-type stuff like that is
"frivolous", and thus a waste of money.
so...my kids wanna color? i buy them the good pastels to
start with, and we call it "being an artist", and it's *ok*
if one of the kids comes out to draw, and it *looks* like a
kid's drawing, but the kids get real hesitant about
"wasting" paper and media. they wanna do finger painting?
...well...*looks to the right 5 inches, where there's a
cheery purple smiley face adorning the patch in the drywall*
...yeah, but that was Gloriana. Not the same thing. ;)
even when we finger paint, there's this feeling that i'm
creating an artwork, cuz, see, *that's* "useful". (by
somebody's definition. ;) i, personally, have difficulty
seeing creative arts as not-useful, but i suppose there are
those...)
and if we go to the craft store, we end up buying stuff that
we think we can use to make stuff to sell online or
something, u know? so i buy pretty beads and stuff, so i
can make something "useful". *rolls eyes* ...and this is
the "toy" for the kid.
we stood in a toy aisle of a department store recently,
looking at little-girl things, with the general concensus
inside being that we would get whatever the kid who was out
that day wanted...and she couldn't pick anything, even with
us urging her to get whatever she wanted, and telling her
that it was ok.
...mind you, we had a *bit* of a problem with lance, but we
were *dealing* with that! but the kid couldn't choose
anything, cuz she didn't want to "get in trouble" for buying
a useless toy that she was "just going to break anyway", or
"use once and then never play with again"...and even *with*
us saying "honey, it's ok if it breaks. it's ok if you play
with it once and never again. it's ok..." it didn't help.
ended up not getting her anything. 'cept p*werpuff girls
bandaids. *rolls eyes* ...but we'd picked those out b4 we
got to the toy aisle.
so what do i do with a kid who longs to be allowed to be a
little kid, but won't allow *herself*? this same kid has a
thing for sparkly-pretty things. but when she sees them,
she gets disconsolate and despondent because she can't have
the pretty-sparklies that she wants *soooo badly*. was in
the craft store a couple days ago, buying more useless crap
that in *theory* we're gonna turn into decorative useless
crap to sell online...*sigh* ;) ...and our friend wanted to
look at the xms decorations, so we wandered over there, too.
saw a display of pretty sparklies in (fake) crystal and
silver and occasional touches of blue (*BIG* mega-huge "this
is sooooo my taste!")...and the kid was yearning desperately
for ...beauty, i guess (not Miss Beauty). no other way to
explain it. the ornaments were beautiful (gaudy, chintzy,
cheap, i-could-make-better-on-my-worst-day...) <shut up,
lance>, and she wanted...not specifically *those* ornaments,
but *definitely* that *quality*. she wants her world to be
a spun-sugar crystal fairytale land, a marvel of ice and
snow...glorious vistas as far as the eye can see...
we almost started crying in the store. fortunately i was
somewhat co-c, and knew what the problem was going to be,
and had our friend drag us away from the display. the kid
went quietly.
she "knows" that she can't have this stuff. it breaks my
heart. how do i help her? {it's ok. you don't have to be
sad for me.} <yeah, but we love you, kiddo. ...wanna go
look at our diamond again? see if we can make it sparkle?>
this same kid...she'd be an amazing jewelry designer. or
chandeliers. fountains. stained glass windows (white
frosted glass, contrasting with clear, or different patterns
of white/clear, ya know?). we can close our eyes and let
her mind go, and see a kaleidascope of gorgeousness flash
past, ya know? but then she despairs again, and goes away.
how can i help her?
jt
"Jill" <ji...@tuells.org> wrote in message
news:bo96un$pfp$1...@fullstop.tuells.org...
J.L. Thomas
"karen"
<Anonymous...@See.Comment.Header.gmsociety.org> wrote
in message
news:E749WWE43793...@Gilgamesh-frog.org...
> NOTE: This message was sent thru a mail2news gateway.
> No effort was made to verify the identity of the sender.
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dear Beauty,
("jt", not beauty, unless i'm missing something. ;) )
>
> thanks for this post. helped me not feel so alone.
>
> my "childish" things involve the instrument that i've
devoted my life too
> and due to old negative tapes repeatedly played in my
mind, are "useless".
> i see art, the creativity in my life, as useless much in
the same way you
> struggle picking something out for your inner kids. my
music is a "waste
> of time" (and concurrently it's my being... therefore one
can fill in the
> blanks...)
>
music is life.
see...there are 2 different "worlds", imho: the everyday
ho-hum world, and the world of the sp*rit. in the everyday
world, music is more of a marginal kind of activity: one not
likely to put bread on the table consistently.
in the world of the sp*rit, music is everything.
while we must live in both worlds at the same time, we get
to choose which one we value more. i value the one that
makes me feel alive. heck, i value the one that makes me
*feel*.
the other one can go hang, as far as i'm concerned. ;)
jt
> karen
Jill
That would be easier to understand if you had outside kids :)
You buy them for her. She looks at the pretty sparkly whatever
it is and says 'never mind' and walks away and _you_ go back and
pick it up and put it in the cart and say 'well, _I_ want it too'.
Ok, so now she's off the hook cause it is _your_ 'fault' it's
going to be bought but she gets the whatever it is cause once you
get home you put it on 'her' shelf (or where ever you have
designated to be her spot, you do have places for each of you right,
where everyone understands 'this is my special shoe box' or
whatever and no one else can mess with it) and say 'this is now
yours'. Then butt out!!!! If she plays with it great, if not fine.
You can remind her periodically that it is hers and she is allowed
to play with it.
I do this with my outside kids when they say 'I want x but I'm too
little' or whatever they are afraid of regarding that object. Like
it's too big or it will break or... They don't do this often but as
soon as they say this I buy it and say 'well, we'll worry about x
later.' Then they take it home and stare at it for a bit and finally
get into playing with it and it turns out fine. The most recent
example I can think of was about beads. Kidlette said she was too
little to have beads (she is almost 4) and so I found biggish beads
and said 'you can have these' and she said 'no, I'm too little' so I
bought them and put them on her desk and after about a week she was
stringing them and playing with them.
You can buy stuff to hang in the windows that sparkle. I have
crystal thingees in my windows that make rainbows :)
>this same kid...she'd be an amazing jewelry designer. or
>chandeliers. fountains. stained glass windows (white
>frosted glass, contrasting with clear, or different patterns
>of white/clear, ya know?). we can close our eyes and let
>her mind go, and see a kaleidascope of gorgeousness flash
>past, ya know? but then she despairs again, and goes away.
>
>how can i help her?
>
>jt
Well, the best thing I can think of is to stop expecting her to do
it herself and help her out. Kidlette _loves_ dinosaur stuff but
there is no way she even knows what to buy much less how to do it.
So _I_ find the cool dig the dinosaur fossil out of clay thing and
get it for her and help her do the project. _I_ find the cool place
to go and actually dig up _real_ fossil fish and _KEEP THEM_ (not
that I was at all impressed with this event:). I go to used book
sales and find dinosaur books and read them to her.
You're the adult here, step in and take over. Buy her stuff you
think she would like. Put it where she can appreciate it and make
sure she has time to sit and stare at it. If your childhood was like
mine that's half the battle. The adults in your life didn't do stuff
like this and you were left to flounder around wanting/knowing you
couldn't/wishing you could. Now that you are the adult you get to
change this for the kids. There is nothing wrong with a kid having a
cool crystal sparkly whatever it is so get it for her as a surprise.
Rainbow Colors (Jill)
Celeste
found ur post on g*ogle n remembred u asked what was meant by non-vanilla.
its somethin i saw jt usin for a while n i felt it fitted well ya know. my
take on it is if u think of ice cream vanilla is like the standard, run of
the mill, average flavour. the basic one, right? most ppl like vanilla.
jill says whenever she sees the topic non-vanilla she thinks of chocolate
ice cream(think i got that right?) lol. non-vanilla s*x means we're talkin
bout s*x that is non-standard.
not thought to be typical for most. does that help?
best i could do for now, sorry,
Celeste.
"Beauty" <beauty@***po.hm.uc.edu> wrote in message
news:JFHpb.11693$Zl5....@news02.roc.ny...
Beauty
beautys.
Beauty
beuaty.s
J.L. Thomas
<snip> >music is life.
>
> my thrp and friends tell me that when i speak of it i
become very animated,
> positive. i fear all of it though but i've often used
glenn gould's quote
> "my ecstasy is my music". yes, music is life but i
constantly fight it.
i understand. i've fought that fight.
now my fight is always for *more*: more vulnerability.
more truth. more raw honesty. i *always* want to sing
*right* on the edge of tears, i *want* to walk that knfe
edge - dance along it, really - teeter right on the verge of
my voice breaking from the emotion. *THAT* is my truth.
*that* is the pinnacle of my vocation. to be so filled with
the glory of *living* that my imperfect body can't
*possibly* express it well enough, but to *know* that it
*was* enough. to know that i've done everything i could do
to get it out, to express it. and to know that that's good
enough.
tears again, on my face, as i write this.
i wish you well on your journey. keep fighting that good
fight. :)
jt
> >
> >see...there are 2 different "worlds", imho: the everyday
> >ho-hum world, and the world of the sp*rit. in the
everyday
> >world, music is more of a marginal kind of activity: one
not
> >likely to put bread on the table consistently.
>
> have always been able to do one thing or the other. music
or putting food
> on the table. to me music is more than sp*rit... it is
also deeply
> ingrained with my s*xuality which has become a shock for
me to learn
> through my thpst. accepting this means also accepting
vuln*rability and
> that is a loaded issue for me. lots of defenses in place.
>
> what i am finding out is that in order to be healthy, to
remain s*ne, music
> cannot be marginal. when it becomes marginal it
disappears. "marginal"
> was what i was always told growing up and was discouraged
from it, to put
> it kindly. music was denigrated and i was frequently
ridiculed for wanting
> it to be my life. the deeper that i get in thpy, and it
is going very deep
> now, the more i realize how necessary it is for me to be
doing it and doing
> it often, daily. now seeking simple job where i have no
responsibility to
> pursue music more. recently received a grant
(composition) which is
> something that i cannot just ignore but wow, does it bring
up issues.
> >
> >in the world of the sp*rit, music is everything.
> >
> >while we must live in both worlds at the same time, we
get
> >to choose which one we value more. i value the one that
> >makes me feel alive. heck, i value the one that makes me
> >*feel*.
>
> cecil taylor once said "to feel is the most terrifying
thing in society"
> and i agree with him. music is feeling but it is also
vuln*rability,
> allowing those inner things to become known to others
through sound. gave
> thpst my cd (one of them) and sadly she knows little about
music
> interpretation because what goes unsaid, the unspeakable
and sometimes the
> unknowable, things not remembered, are right there in what
i do with sound.
>
> i'm not formally trained (the discouragement as a child
pretty much took
> care of that) and do not have a degree but finally managed
to put a "music"
> resume together. now i'm seeking the courage to send it
to schools. i'm
> capable of teaching master classes and my primary interest
would be
> teaching people to "think out of the box" so to speak.
almost a zen-like
> thing like playing your instrument without an instrument,
something i
> learned to do when bordering on homelessness with
belongings in a shopping
> bag and no instrument. sorry for going on for so long.
> >
> >the other one can go hang, as far as i'm concerned. ;)
>
> thank you for that. what is life in me agrees with that
statement but the
> struggle is how to bring what is life to me and putting
food on the table
> together without sacrificing my musical integrity in the
process.
>
> karen
>
>
Beauty
This is all so much what I need to talk about - re: all kinds of beauty.
But the fact that someone even knows Cecil Taylor's name - or AACM or
Albert Ayler or Eric Dolphy or or or or or or or - and yes, the "new"
creative musicians, and everyone everyone everyone who gets drowned out
by $$$$$$ and garbage - we have so much to talk about.
Beauty.
karen wrote:
> NOTE: This message was sent thru a mail2news gateway.
> No effort was made to verify the identity of the sender.
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> jt,
>
> ("jt", not beauty, unless i'm missing something. ;) )
>
>>>thanks for this post. helped me not feel so alone.
>>>
>>>my "childish" things involve the instrument that i've
>>
>>devoted my life too
>>
>>>and due to old negative tapes repeatedly played in my
>>
>>mind, are "useless".
>>
>>>i see art, the creativity in my life, as useless much in
>>
>>the same way you
>>
>>>struggle picking something out for your inner kids. my
>>
>>music is a "waste
>>
>>>of time" (and concurrently it's my being... therefore one
>>
>>can fill in the
>>
>>>blanks...)
>>>
>>
>>music is life.
>
>
> my thrp and friends tell me that when i speak of it i become very animated,
> positive. i fear all of it though but i've often used glenn gould's quote
> "my ecstasy is my music". yes, music is life but i constantly fight it.
>
Beauty
Yes, better sleep, much better, thank you.
Arghhhhhhh!!!!!!!!! I just finished sending you email about Monk
(Meredith, that is, not Thelonius).
I can't believe it.
We will talk each other's ears off and send each other's souls soaring
when we further connect.
Beauty.
karen wrote:
> NOTE: This message was sent thru a mail2news gateway.
> No effort was made to verify the identity of the sender.
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dear Beauty,
>
> I hope this morning finds you feeling better... that you managed some
> sleep. Cannot imagine what you are going through and we have often wanted
> something "physical" wrong for understanding that never seems to come that
> "physical" illness would enable others to identify with. But something
> term*nal to end what is happening.
>
> I am surprised to find someone here, and very pleased, that someone knows
> those people and is familiar with their beautiful music. I heard Ayler
> live by accident, for free in an open loft during the 60's. It changed my
> life. Was witness to Cecil too but also long ago. It all led to the
> dissapation of my being a "commercial" musician. Reading Silence by John
> Cage was the final thing that placed me over the edge, never to really
> fully return to "normal" musical thinking. I still love pop music as it
> brings me to that place of innocence, of being a child... and strangly
> enables me to allow myself to be vulner*ble enough to let go.
>
> Dolphy was a genius.
>
> I've had the humbling experience in doing multiple performance with one of
> the best reed players in the world today, also recording with him and one
> of the formost female composers of our time who I'm meeting with this
> morning to discuss possible work. I still do not believe that I am any
> good on my instrument, or have any talent though there is a part of me that
> knows I am capable ot teaching master classes, a history of my instrument
> in 20th century American Classical music (jazz), and how to think out of
> the box, using almost zen like approach such as performing on your
> instrument without using the instrument which due to semi-homelessness was
> once forced to do.
>
> Then there is the visual arts that tie into it all too that I have not kept
> up with (denial and psycholigical self ab*se). Jules Olitski, Klee, Morris
> Lewis,of course Pollack. I have p*nished myself by withdrawal from that
> too. Meridith Monk is a major influence also who I have never seen perform
> but her microtonal usage of simple vowels has profoundly effected me.
> Child-song in a way. Innocence.
>
> Yes, I'm surprised to find someone here... and nearby over the mountain...
> who feels all of these things that few know about or understand.
>
> Please stay well... sending as much positive energy as I can find within me
> right now to give.
>
> karen
Beauty
Carla Bley - first heard of her re: same boyfriend who helped fight to
get J. Jarman, Lester Bowie (now recently d**d - sad, sad, sad, sad),
Muhal Richard Abrams, etc., etc. to play at U of Chgo - he (boyfriend)
had radio show in wee hours - prog. jazz and creative music (jazz-based)
and we heard Escalator Over the Hill.
What a round, round world this is.
Planets. Used to do birth charts for peoples, used to do transits.
Can't wait to meet -
Beauty.
karen wrote:
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> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dear Beauty,
>
> 8:13 tomorrow night think of positive future and good things. Certain
> planets are going to be in conjunction making a "star of david" (PO told me
> about this today as she's performing tomorrow night in the city (NYC) in
> celebration of it.
>
> Glad that you had some sleep. Activity is good for you but so is getting
> some rest and I'm relieved that you managed some last night. I hardly ever
> sleep but it's not from anything physical.
>
> I know about Meredith Monk. Have quite a few of her CD's. Adore her music
> (she's a subconscious influence... so childlike but also so strong and
> unique in her approach to her art. Thelonious is also childlike. His
> sense of humor is what gets to me and he is less subconsciously an
> influence. First heard of M Monk when I lived in da city (NYC) and went to
> the old New Music Distribution Center (run by Carla Bley) and discovered an
> interesting album called "Key". Loved the name "Monk" so took a chance on
> buying the LP. Loved it from the start. There was a work on there where
> her voice was accompanied by just a simple hand drum (frame drum or
> tabla?). She sounded like she was having the big "O" (you know what I
> mean) and that triggered, but good things bringing me to the realization
> that that type of feeling *could* be expressed in my own music. Of course
> getting there has taken many years of breaking through psychological stuff
> and I'm still not quite there, but when I'm "in form" there is a very
> s*xual quality to my playing and it is also very feminine... yet strong...
> and also extremely vulner*ble which is why it's so difficult for me to
> reach. Fear fear fear. Shame shame shame.
>
> Can't believe that you are familiar with such a wide world of music.
> Almost the sister I've never had :)
>
> Yes, we will talk more about this.
>
> Please take care, stay safe, and positive energies towards your getting
> your physical self in tune with being strong again.
>
> karen